Slashdot Mirror

← Back to Stories (view on slashdot.org)

Sony/IBM/Toshiba: CELL Almost Ready

Posted by timothy on from the just-polishing-the-lock dept.

thryllkill writes "According to Gamespot the CELL processor, assumed to be the main processor for the Playstation3, is near completion. The short (and light) article also says that the chip will be used in IBM computers and Toshiba electronic devices. The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."

24 of 78 comments (clear)

  1. Latency? by digerata · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sorry, but could someone please explain to me how graphic rendering can be done with something with such high latency as a network connection? Its bad enough when I have to use MAIN MEMORY.

    --

    1;
    1. Re:Latency? by richy+freeway · · Score: 5, Informative

      Does it anywhere say Broadband Internet connection?

      No.

      Thanks for listening.

    2. Re:Latency? by Corngood · · Score: 3, Funny

      It doesn't say 'network' either.

  2. How? by Jahf · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We've been hearing about how this processor is going to help broadband connections speed up the system for awhile, often saying it will speed up graphics.

    How?

    Yes, I get grid technology for massively parallel computing ... but speeding up graphics would:

    * require an amazing bandwidth ... 256K down / 128K up (basically the minimum for me to consider it broadband and you have to consider the minimums) is just not going to cut it.

    * require insanely low latency ... imagine a twitch game where your ping affected not only model updates but the graphics themselves.

    I -have- to assume until someone shows otherwise that this technology does nothing for the -graphics- but rather is used to help with the overall console processing.

    Any decent explanations of how Sony et al plan to actually utilize this technology?

    --
    It is more productive to voice thoughtful opinions (reply) than to judge (moderate) others.
    1. Re:How? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's all marketing rubbish. They did exactly the same thing with the 'Emotion Engine' chip when the PS2 was being developed.

    2. Re:How? by rmarll · · Score: 5, Funny


      This technology allows intimidated japanesee business men to wave their hands in the air and distract you from X-Box 2 announcements.

      They're so tiny, and they have massive quantities of unobtanium! The PS3 must be better than X-Box 2.

      ------------
      On a more serious note, I think Cell is more a way to add many processors efficiently to a system. I.E. wait till X-Box 2 specs are known and put in as many processors as it takes to beat them on the tech front. The internet thing is bullshit.

    3. Re:How? by QuantumRiff · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The Cell chip is a bunch of little processors on the same die, (think dual core, but its more like 16). the broadband they are talking about is the super high speed bus (on the chip) between the cores. By broadband they are talking about the bandwitdth between the cores, bandwidth is not only a measure of network speed.

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    4. Re:How? by TeknoHog · · Score: 2, Informative
      By broadband they are talking about the bandwitdth between the cores, bandwidth is not only a measure of network speed.

      "You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it does." ;)

      Bandwidth does not mean data-transfer rate, no matter what the marketroids say. They are different quantities measuring different things in different units. Even though they are related in some cases.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandwidth

      http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=871448

      http://everything2.org/index.pl?node_id=996851

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    5. Re:How? by MarsDefenseMinister · · Score: 2, Interesting

      IBM's vision of GRID computing is that compute resources are like the electrical grid: you pull what you need from the grid on demand. Personally I don't see the value for most applications

      That's not entirely complete, so that's why you don't see the value. IBM will have a great big server farm, with machines filling the room, all subpartitioned.

      Company X, Y, and Z will tell IBM "take my apps and host them for me". IBM could host them all conventionally, which is fine. But, they have the technology to use GRID to lower their costs. X, Y, and Z's apps might all be running on the same server, in different partitions. If X suddenly needs 10 times the capacity (for example, HR Block in tax season) their apps will transparently migrate to some faster CPU's somewhere else. IBM just bills for the cycles used, no matter where they are used.

      In this way, IBM can fill a room with 100 gigantic servers, and host 1000 customers' apps. Their competitors might fill the same room with 10000 servers, hosting 1000 customers' apps. That would be wasteful, because overall, the server farm might be 90% idle.

      GRID computing is a technology, and On-Demand is the product it supports.

      --
      No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
    6. Re:How? by MarsDefenseMinister · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually they are the same. Grid is a term that is more general than Seti-like infrastructure. Grid is the technology that enables other things. In the case of SETI, the technology enables the SETI@home product to run across multiple computers. In the case of IBM, Grid enables their On-Demand product. Hopefully that helps out a bit. IBM has been rather confusing in explaining the relationship between grid tech and On-Demand. In case you're wondering, people inside of IBM are sometimes confused too.

      --
      No weapon in the arsenals of the world is so formidable as the will and moral courage of free men.-Ronald Reagan
  3. Information on El Reg by Doodlepants · · Score: 5, Informative

    El Reg has an informative piece up http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/11/05/sony_cell_ cpu_to_deliver/

    1. Re:Information on El Reg by mausmalone · · Score: 2, Informative

      It all makes sense now! The "broadband" quote came from Kutaragi, who either (a) doesn't speak English as a first language, or (b) was incorrectly translated, or (c) is an executive and therefore able to use jargon incorrectly as much as he wants. For anyone scratching their heads about grid processing over broadband, substitute "bus" for broadband and you'll probably start to get it, as he was talking about chip-to-chip communications, not system-to-system. Read the register article in the parent post, too. It has a lot of good details.

      --
      -=-=-=-=-=
      I'd rather be flamed than ignored.
  4. Little Timmy meets P3... by DamienMcKenna · · Score: 2, Funny

    "Mom, please hang up the phone, you're seriously affecting my FPS rate!"

    Damien

  5. You scientists never learn! by Wylfing · · Score: 2, Funny
    Sure, this "Cell" sounds interesting on paper. But things always go horribly wrong.

    --
    Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
  6. Re:Marketing rubbish indeed. by UberLaff · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Exactly... Anyone remember the emotion engine in PS2? Oh yeah that turned out to be so much more powerful than the other systems... scoff scoff... marketing is crap... theyre all going to be close enough in power in the end...

  7. How NOT to summarise an article by Andy_R · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What the slashdot summary of the story said:
    "The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."

    What the original article actually said:
    "the CELL is a next-generation multimedia processor with the ability to handle intensive graphics and high-bandwidth communications."

    So much for clarity and brevity.

    --
    A pizza of radius z and thickness a has a volume of pi z z a
  8. what about the wallet challenged by sosuke · · Score: 2, Interesting

    does this mean that we cant play games on the ps3 without a internet connection?

  9. Cell is an architecture, not the processor for PS3 by News+for+nerds · · Score: 5, Informative

    Cell is a scalable processor architecture, and its prefered embodiment called Broadband Engine in this patent by SCE is expected in PS3.

    While broadband in Broadband Engine obviously means high-speed interconnection between its APUs and PEs and PUs and eDRAM in the first place, its double meaning propagates through its optical interface. This Broadband-ness will initially start from optical-fiber intranet in home, then Cell spreads to servers, routers in ISP, and so on to form larger network. Rather than sharing power, its main point is sharing the same language/ISA across the network. X86 is not enough apparently, without network-awareness such as GUID and latency calculation of remote object. The patent states "1. A computer network comprising: a plurality of processors connected to said network, each of said processors comprising a plurality of first processing units having the same instruction set architecture and a second processing unit for controlling said first processing units, said first processing units being operable to process software cells transmitted over said network, each of said software cells comprising a program compatible with said instruction set architecture, data associated with said program and an identification number uniquely identifying said software cell among all of said software cells transmitted over said network. "

    I don't know what OS will be used to control them, but Linux must be one of candidates in Cell server-side.

  10. What it means in a nutshell from a nut... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Some people still don't understand, and you call yourself geeks...

    The Cell Processor will have, lets say for arguments sake, 10 CPU cores on a grid setup. This means that the work load will be distrabuted through out the 10 cores evenly or where needed. The term grid probley come from the fact that this is how server farms work in theroy. Who knows.

    Now for what bradband is... IT IS NOT A INTERNET CONNECTION! They are talking about the pipe/wires/lines/monkeys that will carry the data to the cores, cpu, memory, and such.

    You don't need a server farm for the grid, it's not that kind of grid, nor do you need a power station, it's not a power grid eather. You don't need bradband, but it might help if it has a connection for 1Gigbit.

    Brush up on your geek myfriends.

  11. Clever... by automandc · · Score: 5, Interesting
    If you look at the ever-promised convergence of computing and consumer electronics, this makes a lot of sense. Starting with just a PS3, Sony can gradually induce you to buy all Sony equipment.

    First, they sell you a 4-core PS3 that runs all of the 1st Gen PS3 games. Then, as the developers learn to use the platform, and the development tools get better, the games start requiring more processing power. Sony then starts selling 8-core or more PS3 consoles (and/or upgrade cards).

    Second, Sony starts offering other electronics with CELL chips. E.g. televisions with built in MPEG-2 Decoders utilizing CELL processors. So, instead of buying a new PS3, you buy a Sony television with 4-core CELL, and plug in the P3 via Fiber optic for a total of 8-cores. And when you aren't playing games, the TV can use the PS3 for additional decoding power (e.g. for multiple channel DVR functionality etc.).

    Then, buy a Sony PC with "media center" functionality, and it has additionall CELLs on board (along with the regular x86), and thereby boosts the whole home "network" if connected via fiber (some propriatary interface Sony will no doubt make big bucks on).

    Fiber isn't necessarily new in the home for this type of application. My stereo already has fiber-interconnects for digital audio (DVD, HDTV Cable Box, PS2).

    Final stage: all of your entertainment devices are CELL based. Sony starts selling "modules" which do nothing but add additional CELLs to the network. Plug in an additional 4-Core CELL module and you can play PS3 games that won't run on just the console. Sony doesn't need to come out with new consoles anymore, just better development tools, and more consumer stuff that interconnects. ("Sure, you can buy the other toaster, but if you buy the SONY CELL toaster you can play the newest games!")

    It's the ultimate in market lock-in, and unlike Betamax, it just may work if the PS3 is widely adopted as just the newest console. If they port Linux and OO to it, they may even give MS a run for their money in the general home-OS market! Wow, it's diabolical.

    --
    I'm a lawyer with excellent karma. Something's gotta be wrong.
    1. Re:Clever... by aliens · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Only problem is that breaks the entire Console way of making games. Game designers who work on consoles know exactly how their game runs on a system. If they have to start creating multiple settings for users to turn on and off it's going to get more complicated I would think. Suddenly they have to count the number of CELL's connected and adjust the game accordingly.

      Or release games that have CELL requirements? Sounds good for a techie, but for an average consumer?

      kids: "Mommy mommy I want that game it says PS3"

      moms: "I guess that means it will run correctly"

      At least that's how I see it.

      --
      -- taking over the world, we are.
  12. Err...what? by JustNiz · · Score: 2, Interesting

    >> The CELL processor is significant because it is touted to utilize grid technology over broadband connections to make the graphics capabilities of the new Playstation many times greater than the competition."

    I presume this is not what it sounds like otherwise you'd HAVE to be connected to broadband and get good throughput 100% of the time you're playing. ...and where on the net does the extra performance come from?

    1. Re:Err...what? by damiam · · Score: 3, Informative

      Broadband refers to high-speed connections between multiple processors on the same chip, within the PS3. The Internet is not involved.

      --
      It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.
  13. *sigh* by Khaotix · · Score: 5, Funny

    I swear if one more person posts something illustrating that they think bandwidth means internet connections I'll explo... *poof*