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US Judge Strikes Down Bootleg Law

lee writes "BBC News reports briefly on a federal judge declaring a 10-year-old anti-bootlegging law unconstitutional, because it sets no limits on the length of copyright of live performances, and grants "seemingly perpetual protection" to copyright holders."

312 comments

  1. This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by DrJonesAC2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There is NO FRIGGIN WAY this is going to stand. The RIAA and MPAA will see to that. $$$

    1. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by anonieuweling · · Score: 2, Interesting

      HMmm. Too bad the $$$-based lobby is listed to too much, in the USA. Can anybody tell me what the years _before_ my puberty were like w.r.t. legislation in global context? What about (c), trade, patents, money(laundring), privacy, etc? The past few years look SO bad so I want to check if this is a trend or a change

    2. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by The+Clockwork+Troll · · Score: 3, Insightful

      They were largely the same except the Internet wasn't around to keep everyone apprised of all the corporations' shady dealings, so it was easier for crap like this to get perpetrated.

      --

      There are no karma whores, only moderation johns
    3. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by bechthros · · Score: 3, Funny

      I agree. Have fun taking this one all the way to the Rehnquist/Scalia Supreme Court.

    4. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by rokzy · · Score: 1

      "If you strike me down, I shall become more powerful than you can possibly imagine..."

      or.... not.

    5. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by Linux+is+shit · · Score: 0

      I think this discussion begs the question of whether it's a good thing or not that copyrights last for seemingly indefinite amounts of time. Surely if you've come up with something yourself, you deserve rights over it forever? Why should copyrighted works be released unless the owner wants it?

      --
      Linux will succeed on the desktop the day you don't need the CLI to install a driver.
    6. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by cwsulliv · · Score: 1

      "There is NO FRIGGIN WAY this is going to stand. The RIAA and MPAA will see to that. $$$"

      It will likely be overturned on the grounds that the original recording was illegal. Therefore the constitutional requirement that copyright protection (accorded to legally published works) be granted only for a limited time does not apply.

    7. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > It will likely be overturned on the grounds that
      > the original recording was illegal.

      Illegal how?

      > Therefore the constitutional requirement that
      > copyright protection (accorded to legally
      > published works) be granted only for a limited
      > time does not apply.

      The patent and copyright clause is the only authority Congress has for enacting laws restricting copying.

      BTW copyright protection is not accorded only to published works (though it should be).

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    8. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by jonbryce · · Score: 1

      All they need to do is set a time limit of say 999 years, and it will there will be no constitutional challenges.

    9. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by badasscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They were largely the same except the Internet wasn't around to keep everyone apprised of all the corporations' shady dealings, so it was easier for crap like this to get perpetrated.

      Well, if anything, the past was actually worse. The internet has not only allowed us to keep more apprised of what's going on, but it's also led to increased availability of bootlegs and other illicit material. It used to be that if you wanted a live recording of a show, and you didn't have the ability to go to the show yourself, you basically had to go to one of these little record stores in New York or some other big city and buy one. And of course, it was very easy for the feds to figure out where these dealers were and shut them down. (More would pop up later, but it wasn't this rising tide that the internet has now wrought.)

      I used to work at one of these record stores - Zapp Records in New York. One day in the mid 90's I came in to work only to see a whole mess of US Customs agents rifling through our shelves. They ended up confiscating half of our inventory and the store shut down a month or two later after the owner fled to Germany to escape federal prosecution.

      This is the way it used to be. What goes on now is no different, but because supply is now outstripping law enforcement's ability to deal with it, it's probably actually easier to get away with breaking bootlegging laws at this point.

      My point being, there were no "good old days", as the original question seemed to be implying. These laws have always been enforced and in fact were probably easier to enforce before the internet became mainstream.

    10. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by WCMI92 · · Score: 1

      " There is NO FRIGGIN WAY this is going to stand. The RIAA and MPAA will see to that. $$$"

      Most likely. Sadly. But the Supreme Court has basically upheld perpetual (one day less than eternity is limited) when they upheld the Sonny Bono copyright extension, so it will probably go down on appeal.

      --
      Corporatism != Free Market
    11. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by miskatonic+alumnus · · Score: 1

      Surely if you've come up with something yourself, you deserve rights over it forever?

      Mmmmmmmm NO! If you want to have exclusive rights to your work "forever" then keep your work under wraps --- don't ever let anyone see it/hear it/use it/know it exists. The whole POINT of copyright is to entice people NOT to do this, by allowing them to the exclusive right to profit from their creation for a LIMITED TIME in exchange for contributing the work to the public at a later date. That way, everybody wins.

    12. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      . Surely if you've come up with something yourself, you deserve rights over it forever?

      The creator does have rights over it forever. He just has exclusive rights for a limited time. After copyriht has expired, he can still copy it, sell it, and make derivitive works. He just can't prevent other people from doing this. Since the artist would have sold his work several times, I see no reason that he should still retain rights to it.

    13. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Well, but "back in the day" there was insufficient enabling technology. People were allowed freedoms that reached pretty close to technological limits. These days, technological development has made everything exponentially cheaper, but the gov't is supporting the old way of doing things, rather than supporting the natural push of the competitive market to make companies lower their prices until people are willing to pay rather than steal.

      What I mean is, back in the day stealing cost X and prices were X-1. Now, stealing costs X-10 and prices are still X-1. It has ALWAYS been the case that people would steal stuff if it was cheaper (in terms of risk, morals, etc) than buying, and the market was forced to compromise its desire for excess profits. Now there is no compromise.

    14. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, "Corporatism != Free Market". But do you know what "corporatism" means, or are you ignorant like Jon Katz was?

      Here's a hint: Germany, today, is vastly more corporatist than the United States.

    15. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by cwsulliv · · Score: 1

      >> It will likely be overturned on the grounds that
      >> the original recording was illegal.

      >Illegal how?

      Probably unauthorized copying of a copyrighted work, i.e., the live performance, made for purposes of resale. AKA "Piracy". We'll find out for certain when the case goes to appeal.

      >> Therefore the constitutional requirement that
      >> copyright protection (accorded to legally
      >> published works) be granted only for a limited
      >> time does not apply.

      >The patent and copyright clause is the only
      >authority Congress has for enacting laws
      >restricting copying.

      It would be naive to believe that lack of clear constitutional authority ever stopped Congress before, or that the convoluted logic used to justify its legislation will automatically be rejected by Federal judges.

      >BTW copyright protection is not accorded only to
      >published works (though it should be).

      True, so live performances are covered regardless of whether they're considered published or unpublished works.

    16. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1

      I think that the end result of this is going to be that (for now) making bootlegs is now legal, but I'm pretty sure that I could construe that commercially distributing and selling those bootlegs would be a violation of copyright. That, however is not what this distributor was charged with, so I'd expect that the's gonna get a 'bye' on this.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    17. Re:This is going to get overturned in a heartbeat. by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 1

      >>> It will likely be overturned on the grounds
      >>> that the original recording was illegal.

      >> Illegal how?

      > Probably unauthorized copying of a copyrighted
      > work

      But how can it be copyrighted if the law granting that copyright is unconstitutional? Something else must also have asserted a constitutional copyright over the performance.

      Barring that, until a new law is passed and applied retroactively (as they do), live performances are public domain and bootleg copies either are as well or are copyright by the bootlegger. Made retroactive, that will be revoked, but you can't be prosecuted ex post facto for bootlegging recordings between the time when the old law was determined unconstitutional and a new, constitutional law was enacted. (Though I would wait for a ruling by the SCOTUS, unless I sought to preserve protection, whereupon I'd push through a new law ASAP.)

      Of course, you'll have to be certain that the performers aren't recording the concert themselves for publication. Though they do have some copyright protection for unpublished works as well, it isn't as durable.

      > True, so live performances are covered
      > regardless of whether they're considered
      > published or unpublished works.

      I understood they'd still have to be fixed in a medium to enjoy protection. If there's no opportunity for playback, there'd be unlimited time accorded to the copyright protection, and since that would be unconstitutional, there'd be no copyright protection.

      Need it be said IANAL?

      IMO any copyright holder that would allow the work itself to expire before the copyright does should face penalties. Even if it means they have to preserve all their works made in kindergarten and be buried under a mass of macaroni pictures unless they forego all protection for those works. I.e. if you can't or won't preserve works for the public domain's enjoyment later, you must give up your copyright now thus releasing your burden to preserve, either by reassigning the copyright to someone with the means and desire to preserve the work or relinqishing copyright over the work in perpetuity.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
  2. BBC by ThisNukes4u · · Score: 1

    A BBC article on a U.S. court ruling? Maybe you could include a link to a U.S. based news source to balance that out.

    --
    thisnukes4u.net
    1. Re:BBC by rusty0101 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      New here arn't you...

      The US press considers judgements that are not in favor of copyright holders to not be news. (At least all together too frequently.)

      Rusty

      --
      You never know...
    2. Re:BBC by glpierce · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I've noticed that the BBC does a much better job on this type of thing than the American media. American news sources generally devote page 1 space to death and scandal, while the Beeb gets into the American court rulings related to personal liberty and freedoms, etc. I live in the 'States, but get more news from the BBC than anywhere else. If you care more about court rulings than manufactured "scandals" or political doublespeak, you don't have much choice. It's not necessarily the media's fault, rather it just reflects the local readership/viewership interests.

      --
      G
    3. Re:BBC by Grey+Tomorrow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Maybe you'd like to be the one to try to find the American news source indicating significant change in America. Whoops my bad, when it comes to American news everyone is too concerned over the weather in Florida, what was happening with Kobe, whether Michael was touching some kid at his ranch, or some other crap to actually pay attention to anything of importance like that. The BBC was offering some of the best news coverage of shit going down in Iraq. Quality journalism doesn't change just cause the news people don't have alegiance to your specific country.

    4. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Additionally, BBC News 24 shows "The news Americans get" with Peter Jennings.

    5. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No ... it's the media's fault. Don't let them duck out from the responsibilities they accepted in exchange for for the freedoms they've been given. The reason we have freedom of the press in this country isn't so that people can be informed of issues that they find entertaining, but that they can be made of aware of issues that are actually important that they would have no other way of finding out about. The media in the U.S. is and has been doing a disservice to it's customers for decades now, and except in rare cases, is at best an extension of the entertainment business and at worst just another arm of the government.

    6. Re:BBC by rokzy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ah, the benefits of a not-for-profit information service :-)

      not wanting to come across as troll, but as a UK citizen the BBC is one of the things that makes me proud and optimistic. the idea of mixing facts and profits just seems like a really Bad Idea(tm) to be avoided as much as possible.

    7. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The BBC news is good for unbiased American news, and American news is good for unbiased Euro/British news.

    8. Re:BBC by bechthros · · Score: 4, Informative

      Amen to that. And we have good old deregulation to thank for it. The media would never have rolled over to the extent that they have for Bush even as recently as 15-20 years ago. The fewer players there have become, the worse the content has gotten. This is a clearly observable trend across many media, in many disparate cases. From ClearChannel radio stations that are a uniform shade of puke to the cable giant Viacom, which owns so many things on cable that if they don't want a story run, it won't be run... IE the Reagan thing on CBS, which Viacom owns...

      The bottom line is, in a democracy there's no good reason for a very few major media players to own the game. A free and *responsible* press, along with good education, is something without which a democracy cannot function. Media consolidation, and the rampant homogeniety and misinformation it engenders time and time again, are probably the biggest internal threat to American democracy today.

      On the plus side, there's always blogs...

    9. Re:BBC by ImaLamer · · Score: 3, Funny

      It would be in the U.S. news but the findings were immediatly copyrighted and any posting of the results are illegal and any news agencies reporting on this story will be fined $500,000.

      No news on whether BBC executives will be extradited due to their crimes against humanity or not. The RIAA has already donated lawyers to the judge involved saying that his rights to hold intellectual property are being violated. WIPO is also on the case.

    10. Re:BBC by SunPin · · Score: 1

      Don't forget the best features of American media such as:

      --Fabricated stories.
      --Fabricated quotes.
      --Fabricated people.
      --Poor grammar.
      --Inexcusable spelling errors.

      Since I haven't gotten past these problems, it's hard to take a position on this "death & scandal" subject matter that you speak of.

      --
      Laws are for people with no friends.
    11. Re:BBC by whovian · · Score: 1

      http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=bootleg &btnG=Search+News

      --
      To-do List: Receive telemarketing call during a tornado warning. Check.
    12. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      The US press considers judgements that are not in favor of copyright holders to not be news.

      The US has precious little "press" these days - it has been almost entirely replaced by "press releases" and the US media considers anything that doesn't use the word "terrorist" in every other sentence or aid the agenda of neo-cons and/or globalization not newsworthy these days.

    13. Re:BBC by dcsmith · · Score: 2, Funny
      Since I haven't gotten past these problems, it's hard to take a position on this "death & scandal" subject matter that you speak of.

      If you're going to get your panties in a wad over grammar and spelling, perhaps its worth pointing out that you should have said "...subject matter of which you speak." Not that I disagree with you, but really...

      --
      This has been a test. If this had been an actual Sig, you would have been amused.
    14. Re:BBC by servognome · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then start your own news organization. Media consolidation is a function of economics, not politics. Alot of small news organizations each with there own political agenda isn't much better than a few large news organizations with their own agenda.
      The public is dumb, they don't care where they get their news from, whether its "Bush is King" Fox news, or "Save the planet and think of the children" CNN, or the entirely fabricated tablioid "news". Public apathy and poor education are a far bigger threat to democracy than a homoginized media.
      As for a "responsible" media, that doesn't happen, the free press has always slanted news reporting to fit their individual agendas.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    15. Re:BBC by afidel · · Score: 1

      It's not like the Beeb doesn't have a bias, it most certainly does. It's just that it's bias doesn't happen to include cowtowing to the political interests in the US, just some of them in the UK. One of the most enlightening classes I ever took was an Advanced Placement (honors) US History class in high school. We used three different college textbooks as the reading material for the year, on our final a major portion of it was an essay comparing and contrasting the biases of the different authors and how those biases colored the way that they reported different aspects of US history.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    16. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And don't forget my personal favorite - fabricated documents!

    17. Re:BBC by Dachannien · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That's not just a commentary on the whorishness of American media (which is widely regarded by execs in the biz as infotainment rather than journalism). It's also a commentary on the sad state of public interest in copyright and fair use issues. It's going to take legislation that overturns Betamax and outlaws VCRs and PVRs to finally get the general public's attention on this issue, and by then it could be too late to turn things around.

    18. Re:BBC by monkease · · Score: 0

      My father, an avowed free-market, dues-paying member of the GOP, was recently complaining about the Wall Street Journal, his favorite newspaper, having such a conservative bias. My advice to him was, "Speak with your dollar"--subscribe to the Christian Science Monitor (a troublesome name for a newspaper, to be sure, but a newspaper with a long history of unbiased reporting). Of course, I soon realized that I should heed my own advice, and bought both him and I subscriptions.

      Of course, here I am reading one of the most biased news sources I can find; karma is a pretty funny form of censorship.

    19. Re:BBC by ari_j · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The media would never have rolled over to the extent that they have for Bush even as recently as 15-20 years ago.

      You're joking, right? I suppose that CBS was "rolling over for Bush" when they started this whole mess.

    20. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is, due to these large companies, the barrier of entry to any sort of large scale, traditional media is extremely high ($$$$$$$$$$$$$).

      About the only large scale option is internet, after traditional media, and frankly, I think most of the demand for that sort of news is filled.

    21. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I know I'm replying to a joke, but there are too many people on Slashdot who actually believe things like this.

      17 USC 105, available at http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/105.html (links don't seem to be working today), says that "works of the US Government" do not qualify for copyright. It can be transferred copyrights, and works of contractors are copyrightable, but nothing done by public employees with public money is.

      The complete text of the section:

      Copyright protection under this title is not available for any work of the United States Government, but the United States Government is not precluded from receiving and holding copyrights transferred to it by assignment, bequest, or otherwise

    22. Re:BBC by SunPin · · Score: 1

      The phrase "that you speak of.", is indeed poor grammar but, with your relatively low UID, you should know that it's an honored /. meme.

      --
      Laws are for people with no friends.
    23. Re:BBC by realdpk · · Score: 1

      I think you've forgotten who the media's customers are. It's not you. You are the product.

    24. Re:BBC by FredThompson · · Score: 1

      The media most certainly has not "rolled over" for Bush. Viacom owns CBS of memogate multiple felony fame and has published more anti-Bush books than any other major publisher. Their TV news shows terrorist violence in Iraq on a dialy basis but they don't show infrastructure modernization in the peaceful areas occupied by 75% of Iraqis.

      Pure democracy never works because it's simply mob rule.

      Deregulation isn't "to blame" for a market delivering what a market wants. Deregulation included the removal of "equal time" requirements which had the effect of restricting reporting. Revenue must be generated for an operation to succeed and it's not generated by broadcasting what nobody watches.

      What most people refer to as "democracy" necessitates a market economy. The market delivers what people want. There most certainly IS a "good reason for a very few major media players to own the game." It's called a free market. It was Great Britain who wanted to prevent a free press in the Colonies. There are far fewer restrictions on the press in the U.S. than any other country.

      When I was in grade school we had ABC, CBS, NBC and possibly a PBS station if the weather was good. Then cable became available and we got C-Span, CNN and the commercial educational channels. Now I've got DirecTV which adds Bloomberg, Fox News, BBCAmerica and even more educational channels.

      When I was in grade school we had the local newspaper, Time, Newsweek and US News. When I was in Junior High we got USA Today and bulletin boards. Now we've got blogs, Air America, Rush Limbaugh, Al Bawaba, MEMRI, Pravda, and countless other online versions of magazines and newspapers from around the world.

      Yeah, that seems like restriction of information..NOT!!!

      Time for you to grow up.

    25. Re:BBC by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 2, Informative
      The phrase "that you speak of.", is indeed poor grammar...

      A common misconception. It's okay to end a sentence with a preposition, especially if doing so allows you to construct the sentence in a way that makes it easier to understand.

      From the Gregg Reference Manual, section 1080:

      Whether or not a sentence should end in a preposition depends on the emphasis and effect desired.

      Informal: I wish I knew which magazine her article appeared in.
      Formal: I wish I knew the magazine in which her article appeared.

      Stilted: It is difficult to know about what you are thinking.
      Natureal: It is difficult to know what you are thinking about.

      Short questions frequenly end with prepositions.

      How many can I count on? What is this good for?

      The place to avoid it, if you're really concerned about it, is where the preposition is unnecessary. For example:

      Where's he at?
      ...as opposed to...
      Where is he?

    26. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In which parallel universe has George Bush not been the butt of constant ridicule by the media? From tales that he spent the most of his early time in office doing nothing, to pointing out each of his unintelligible gaffes, George Bush has been on the receiving end since before he was elected. Get your irrational animosity for the idiot out of your ass, and get the fuck with the program. Anyone that isn't a retard like you is not firmly in the pocket of your right-wing conspiracy. You don't want journalism, you want Michael Moore.

    27. Re:BBC by muonman · · Score: 1

      Actually, it is good English grammar, just poor Latin grammer.

      But then perhaps you noticed, the post was in English, not Latin.

      --
      Anything NOT worth doing is NOT worth doing well...
    28. Re:BBC by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Alot of small news organizations each with there own political agenda isn't much better than a few large news organizations with their own agenda.

      Yes it is, it has a lot more variation and thus gives you a better chance on seeing different sides.

      > Public apathy and poor education are a far bigger threat to democracy than a homoginized media.

      AH yes, and we have no idea what role media plays in education..

      > As for a "responsible" media, that doesn't happen, the free press has always slanted news reporting to fit their individual agendas.

      Which in itself is not bad as long as there are different agendas so that diversity can exist.

      THere is this very very very usefull concept called competition. It can only work if there are enough players and the playign field is somewhat equal.

    29. Re:BBC by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > Yeah, that seems like restriction of information..NOT!!!

      Nope, it doesn't. it looks like repetition of information.

    30. Re:BBC by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      Yes it is, it has a lot more variation and thus gives you a better chance on seeing different sides.

      That's what the internet is for. If your sole source of news is what you see on TV, that's your problem.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    31. Re:BBC by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > That's what the internet is for. If your sole source of news is what you see on TV, that's your problem.

      Ah yes. The internet exists so variation in TV news is not desirable...

      You really know how to make an argument I see.

    32. Re:BBC by servognome · · Score: 1

      Yes it is, it has a lot more variation and thus gives you a better chance on seeing different sides.
      Only if people are educated enough to understand what they are seeing. It's hard enough for people to understand the slant in "mainstream" media, let alone deciphering the agendas of dozens of news agencys.
      AH yes, and we have no idea what role media plays in education.
      If media is educating us, we are very far gone. Media is the entertainment business, it's there to keep our eyes on the TV. If they can get their own agenda across while keeping ratings up, then all the better for them.
      THere is this very very very usefull concept called competition. It can only work if there are enough players and the playign field is somewhat equal.
      There is also concept called market consolidation. Newspapers, TV, radio, it's all business. If people don't like your "version" of the news, you lose out. Just look at the internet, so many options yet people go mostly to CNN.com, or MSNBC.com. People will flock to the news they like, so having many options really doesn't make much of a difference.

      --
      D6 63 0D 70 89 81 BB 8E 7B 7C 5F 5D 54 EA AB 73
    33. Re:BBC by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > Only if people are educated enough to understand what they are seeing. It's hard enough for people to understand the slant in "mainstream" media, let alone deciphering the agendas of dozens of news agencys.

      People may not find it easy to understand the bias of what they see, but it wont be difficult at all for them to see that bias exists especially when different programs on the same station have a very different bias. It is quite likely to help them also in makigng a start to actually realize there is this thing called bias and that it is everywhere.

      > If media is educating us, we are very far gone. Media is the entertainment business, it's there to keep our eyes on the TV. If they can get their own agenda across while keeping ratings up, then all the better for them.

      You see, that is exactly why a large part of TV in the USA is uninteresting and mediacore at best.

      You would really do wise to take a peek over your borders and look at other systems. Most notably the UK has a relatively well working system that has both public and commercial TV. Somehow it seems that having a big station there that is forced to focus part of its time on (initially) less popular things seems to do a good job there in not letting advertisement income rule everything.

      They also do a lot of educational programs, which for that matter are pretty good in quality.

      The same applies to at least some extent to other countries in Europe. Most have a combined system with actual competition but also with a strong public presense.

      > There is also concept called market consolidation. Newspapers, TV, radio, it's all business. If people don't like your "version" of the news, you lose out. Just look at the internet, so many options yet people go mostly to CNN.com, or MSNBC.com. People will flock to the news they like, so having many options really doesn't make much of a difference.

      And there is the wisdom that a free market without soem set of rules results in anarchy and survival of the fittest at the expense of everything else.

      Free market is good ONLY when you can ensure competition exists. That may at times require government intervention or even participation.

      There are very good reasons for special laws that apply to those who manage to obtain a monopoly in the USA even if those laws don't seem to work very well anymore.

      Then, having choices matters. Yes, peopel may go to cnn.com and msnbc.com and actually, to get their version of the news, I'll go there as well (or watch their news bulletin if I get a chance), but they can goto bbc.co.uk as well or to anova.com or to news.com or to a zillion different sites, and the last time I checked, many such sites actually get quite a few visitors, so I am surely not the only one doing so.

      The difference between the internet and cable networks is that few of the news sources actually own the means by which their news is delivered, and none have a strong enough position to dictate terms for now. Also, there is virtually no barrier to entry.

      This all is completely different for cable networks, hence there is no way of even trying without either having a huge amount of money to start out with, or the blessing and financial support from one of the current players.

      I don't know.. where I live, there is a law that actually makes it impossible for any publisher to own more then 40% of the publishing market for newspapers for example. Why? because we believe guaranteeing diversity of news sources is extremely important for a democracy. So important that the rules for it should me much stricter then normal rules concerning (partial) monopolies.

      But then... we also learn at school that you should read more then one newspaper and make sure we see different news programs and background programs.

    34. Re:BBC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "You're joking, right?"

      No. They rolled over when they dilligantly announced that the memos were fake, despite the fact that there is no evidence that they are. Moreover, they've also spectacularly ignored the point of the story -- where the fuck was Bush? In fact, this whole memo shit is such a convenient distraction for the Bush apologists I'm almost tempted to conclude that it was a deliberately erected strawman.

    35. Re:BBC by ImaLamer · · Score: 1

      BUT!!!!

      To be serious, there was a story on /. before that point out that certain laws have been copyright'n.

      The case in question was a city (I believe) that hired some lawyers to write the law for them. Afterward people were getting cease and desist letters from the lawyers.

      Okay, found the /. article here: Is Law Copyrighted? It was a building code posted on the web.

    36. Re:BBC by ari_j · · Score: 1

      No evidence? Other than that the memo was typed on a typewriter that didn't exist 30 years ago (IIRC, it was justified - no military typist would have been capable or willing to do that). It was so obviously faked.

      As to where Bush was - he never claimed he was anywhere but flying around in the ANG. Kerry claims to be a war hero and makes up all sorts of lies to support it - that's what bothers me. Bush never claimed to be a war hero. Kerry bases his entire "I'm tough" image on his "heroism" in Vietnam. Never mind that he came back and protested against the war and undermined the safety of the comrades he left behind. Never mind that he came back because he shot himself in the foot a few times and conned doctors that never worked on him that his bandaids justified Purple Hearts. Never mind that once his exploitation of that honorable medal was through, he pretended to throw it on the White House lawn (it was actually another veteran's medal - Kerry still has his, another lie). Never mind that he admits to shooting a wounded, fleeing VC in the back. Pretty heroic, I must say. Then the whole Cambodia lie - first he claims that it was "seared" in his mind that he was there on Christmas Day, 1968. Then it turns out that can't have been, so he revises his story. He claims the Khmer Rouge were firing at him - never mind that they didn't enter the fighting until the 1970's.

      Yep - purely honest and heroic, that John Kerry. I'm sure glad he's going to fight a "more sensitive war on terror".

      It never ceases to amaze me how vastly and blindly left-wing the Slashdot audience really is. And before you accuse me of being blindly right-wing: I'm not right-wing or blind. But John Kerry will not get my vote. When the British think a guy is too pompous to be our President, something's definitely up.

    37. Re:BBC by bechthros · · Score: 1

      "Only if people are educated enough to understand what they are seeing."

      Oh, come on. A stop sign only works if people are educated enough to understand that as well.

      "It's hard enough for people to understand the slant in "mainstream" media, let alone deciphering the agendas of dozens of news agencys."

      study after study shows that people, no matter what gae, sex, race, or religion, will routinely rise to the level that is expected of them. The only reason the American public (like me) is so stupid is because, deep in our hearts, we think we can get away with it.

      "If media is educating us, we are very far gone."

      My friend, we are very far gone indeed.

      "Media is the entertainment business, it's there to keep our eyes on the TV."

      I consider that an overbroad statement. Media is just that, a *medium* for many different messages, for as many different purposes as the day is long. Entertainment is certainly a huge chunk of what the media does, but for decades, education has been huge as well. Educational (which is to say public) television has had a tremendously positive effect on children and thereby society as well. Childrens' cable channels are still some of the most consistantly interesting programs on TV. Large-scale, demographically neutered, hegemonic network programming has become the most consistantly boring. The shows rated the highest ever were, if I'm not mistaken, "A Box Full of Puppies", and "The Happy Colors Show" (obDinosaurs, sorry).

      "There is also concept called market consolidation. Newspapers, TV, radio, it's all business."

      Well, business is one side of the coin. Government regulation is the other. Yin and yang, dark and light, they couldn't exist without the other. Without business to regulate, those relevant portions of the government would cease to exist (eventually). And believe it or not, folks, but business actually can't survive sustainably without regulation. I mean, the ultimate de-regulation would be to get rid of all industrial and commercial zoning and tax laws. So everybody gets a Starbucks in their front yard or in the middle of streets, gets nearly assaulted by an employee when they go to complain about it, and nobody can call the cops because there aren't any more laws on the books about what corporations can or can't do. So everybody fucking moves. Unrestrained, unregulated business can kill a community just as surely as cancer chokes an organ. Law and business must *check* and *balance* each other, neither gaining the upper hand.

    38. Re:BBC by bechthros · · Score: 1

      that fax came from Texas, that's been proven now. Gee, who do we know that lives in Texas...? Karl Rove used this exact same trick on a different campaign in the 70's.

      And besides, this just proves my point. The CBS news dept would have caught that in a heartbeat 20 years ago, because they would have still been competing with other news departments, so they would have been better funded and better motivated. Competition is a wonderful thing, and it's what makes the difference between capitalism (good) and corporatism (bad).

      The mainstream media have been rolling over *convulsively* for Bush ever since 9/11, and the utter lack of serious competition in the marketplace only makes it that much worse.

  3. Please by superpulpsicle · · Score: 1

    The judges themselves have made copies. They probably didn't sell it on the street. But the concept of copy and backup is just too much of a thin line with boot legging.

    1. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      What's a backup? I'm interested in reading your definition, because none I can think of apply to live performances.

    2. Re:Please by uberdave · · Score: 2, Funny

      Backup: (n) The three girls off to the side of the stage who sway to the music, and sing "Doo-wap Ah!" whilst the main vocalist is singing about a boy meeting a girl under the light of a full moon.

    3. Re:Please by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Very funny. You know what I meant :)

  4. Longer Article here with links by VinceWuzHere · · Score: 5, Informative
    Copy of an expanded version of the story with informative links (at bottom) from .

    By ERIN McCLAM

    Associated Press Writer

    September 24, 2004, 8:27 PM EDT

    NEW YORK -- A federal judge Friday struck down a 1994 law banning the sale of bootleg recordings of live music, ruling the law unfairly grants "seemingly perpetual protection" to the original performances.

    U.S. District Judge Harold Baer Jr. dismissed a federal indictment of Jean Martignon, who runs a Manhattan mail-order and Internet business that sells bootleg recordings.

    Baer found the bootleg law was written by Congress in the spirit of federal copyright law, which protects writing for a fixed period of time _ typically for the life of the author and 70 years after the author's death.

    But the judge said the bootleg law, which was passed "primarily to cloak artists with copyright protection," could not stand because it places no time limit on the ban.

    Baer also noted that copyright law protects "fixed" works _ such as books or recorded music releases _ while bootlegs, by definition, are of live performances.

    A federal grand jury indicted Martignon in October 2003 for selling "unauthorized recordings of live performances by certain musical artists through his business."

    The business, Midnight Records, once had a store in Manhattan but now operates solely by mail and Internet. It sells hundreds of recordings, specializing in rock artists, from the Beatles to Led Zeppelin.

    An e-mail message to Martignon from The Associated Press was not immediately returned Friday, and a phone number could not immediately be located.

    Megan Gaffney, a spokeswoman for the Manhattan U.S. attorney, said federal prosecutors were "reviewing the decision and will evaluate what steps ought to be taken going forward."

    The Recording Industry Association of America, a trade group that fights piracy and bootlegging, also disagreed with the ruling.

    The decision "stands in marked contrast to existing law and prior decisions that have determined that Congress was well within its constitutional authority to adopt legislation that prevented trafficking in copies of unauthorized recordings of live performances," said Jonathan Lamy, a spokesman for the RIAA.

    The bootleg law calls for prison terms of up to five years for first offenders and 10 years for second offenders, plus fines. It requires courts to order the destruction of any bootlegs created in violation of the law.

    The law did not apply to piracy, which is the unauthorized copying or sale of recorded music, such as albums.

    On the Net:

    Midnight Records: http://www.midnightrecords.com

    Bootleg law: http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2319A.html

    Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press

    1. Re:Longer Article here with links by Starsmore · · Score: 1
      The decision "stands in marked contrast to existing law and prior decisions that have determined that Congress was well within its constitutional authority to adopt legislation that prevented trafficking in copies of unauthorized recordings of live performances," said Jonathan Lamy, a spokesman for the RIAA.

      Moments after giving that quote, one of Mister Lamy's aids rushed up to him, reminding him to put the Senator puppet back on his hand before he starts speaking for Congress.

      --
      "If Common Sense was so common, it wouldn't be such a valued trait."
  5. If everybody by red_kola · · Score: 3, Interesting

    just took the Grateful Dead's enlightened position then there wouldn't be a problem.

    I hate the Grateful Dead, but their attitude to the recording and distribution of their live performances is spot on!

    1. Re:If everybody by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why does everyone hate the Grateful Dead?

      please tell me youve heard more of their songs than just "Casey Jones"

    2. Re:If everybody by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      not just the dead, but every artist listed here (and there are still more)

      http://www.archive.org/audio/etreelisting-browse.p hp

  6. bootleg by sgtron · · Score: 4, Funny

    Maybe I'm too old, but I thought this was going to be an article about alcohol.

    --
    No todo lo que es oro brilla
    1. Re:bootleg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      sadly, I'd have to say I thought the same. Am i realy that old? Please no... I'm only 24... I should still be 'hip'.

    2. Re:bootleg by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wrong article. That would be the liquid that defies the law...

    3. Re:bootleg by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      Me too. Imagine my disappointment....

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
  7. Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by turnstyle · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Isn't it worth noting that this was a *record dealer* and was *selling* unauthorized copies of the shows.

    What, that's now ok too?

    --
    Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
    1. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by ImaLamer · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's the law that is found unconstitutional.

      Just because the law is wrong doesn't mean the court endorses the crime. Take Miranda vs. Arizona . Even though the rapist is freed, and precedent is set, the court isn't saying it's okay to rape someone.

    2. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by bullitB · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just for completeness....

      Ernesto Miranda was not freed. He was re-tried (after being read his rights), convicted, and sentenced to 11 years in prison.

      In one of the lesser-known ironies of the century, Miranda was also stabbed to death while on parole. His likely killer was released because he invoked his right to remain silent.

    3. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by turnstyle · · Score: 1, Insightful
      "Even though the rapist is freed, and precedent is set, the court isn't saying it's okay to rape someone."

      To follow your analogy, would you then consider profiting by selling unauthorized shows to be such a "rape"? (obviously that's too strong a word, and I'm sure neither of us mean to equate it that way)

      It seems to me that the prevailing sentiment (like the parent post) sees everything in a "Fuck the RIAA" kind of way -- but if the artist is being ripped off, is that something to cheer?

      --
      Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
    4. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 1

      Bad analogy.

      If we are equating outright theft of an artists recording (i.e. selling a bogus dupe of their CD on the street corner) with rape, then selling a bootleg recording, a recording which was not created by the artist, is more akin to standing outside someone's window, watching them undress and jacking off in the rose bushes.

      Besides, in case you haven't heard, recording companies and the RIAA rip off artists every day, to a much greater extent and at a much larger scale than the small fry who sells bootlegs of live performances.

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    5. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1
      "Even though the rapist is freed, and precedent is set, the court isn't saying it's okay to rape someone."


      To follow your analogy, would you then consider profiting by selling unauthorized shows to be such a "rape"? (obviously that's too strong a word, and I'm sure neither of us mean to equate it that way)

      He wasn't making an analogy. He was making a statement:

      Just because the law is wrong doesn't mean the court endorses the crime.


      and then backing up the statement with an example.

      Analogy is a completely different rhetorical device. Analogy is not even implied in his post.
      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    6. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      if the artist is being ripped off

      The key word here is "if". I see no sign that bootlegs rip-off artists. Most people I know who buy bootlegs have already purchased all of the artist's abumns. Please explain exact what was taken from the artist when a bootleg is sold.

    7. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by turnstyle · · Score: 1
      "The key word here is "if". I see no sign that bootlegs rip-off artists. Most people I know who buy bootlegs have already purchased all of the artist's abumns. Please explain exact what was taken from the artist when a bootleg is sold."

      How obvious can this be?

      We're not even talking about bootlegs shared among frineds -- we're talking about a store that's making money.

      If a store is making money by selling an artist's work, then that artist should be making money too.

      --
      Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
    8. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and jacking off in the rose bushes.

      Ouch!

    9. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The last part of your statement is patently untrue. As a former recording artist (and one that was on a major label) I can tell you that if you record for an RIAA-related label, you will get paid. At a minimum, you'll get your mechanical royalties, which is something. I have never, on the other hand, heard of an artist getting a cent from a bootlegger.

    10. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by 91degrees · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is it with this site, and analogies!?

      An analogy exists to illustrate a point! You can't prove something by analogy. It's not the same situation. Since it's a different situation, the conclusions from one do not automatically apply to the other.

      And while we're at it, nobody was equating theft of a recording with rape. He was using one specific case as an analogy to another to illlustrate the point.

      What is the purpose of your stupid analogy?

    11. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Selecter · · Score: 1
      Yeah. What of it?

      When the day comes that our Federal agencys have better things to do than raid record stores, America will be a better place. This IP Property bullshit has got to go - the laws have to be updated to reflect current realities.

      Why, you ask? Good Question. The degree by which the United States *is* the USA we know depends to a great deal on one thing: the current law vs. the standard norm in society. When the Soviet Union fell, it fell for two reasons: it was broke, and the laws did not have nay correlation to actual day to day life in the country. This made those laws irrelevant.

      The day is coming when we will haul down our flag too, just like they did. We are only about 15 years behind them. When everyone knows the country is a joke and the laws protect no one but the connected and the rich, what do you think will happen?

    12. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 1

      What is the purpose of your stupid analogy?

      Dude, relax!

      Point? I don't really have one, I just wanted to somehow work "jacking off into the rose bushes" into the conversation. Didn't expect you to go all Grammar Nazi on me or anything... Sheesh!

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    13. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 1

      Ouch indeed, perhaps I should've said "into" the rose bushes.

      If your name happens to be Rose, my apologies to you and your bush.

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    14. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by 91degrees · · Score: 1

      oh. be like that. I'll go jack off into the rose bushes myself then. seeya.

    15. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by FiloEleven · · Score: 1

      > If a store is making money by selling an artist's work, then that artist should be making money too.

      Correct, UNTIL the copyright expires. This law basically says that artists' copyright on bootlegged audio is eternal, which, as the judge says, flies in the face of standard copyright law. So the law is being struck down in hopes that a new, refined law, one that defines a set length of time, will take its place.

    16. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by metlin · · Score: 1

      Hmm, this is something that sucks.

      In a lot of countries, it's not illegal for you to record shows -- if I was at a rock-concert that I paid for, I can record it, make mp3s and do anything that I may want -- for my own personal purposes.

      I find it quite disturbing when I learnt the first time after coming to the US that this wasn't the case. I had taken my videocam to an REM concert, and my friend was quite shocked -- if she hadn't told me beforehand, am sure I would have a hard time getting in or explaining to the folks at the door.

    17. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by myowntrueself · · Score: 2, Funny

      "What is it with this site, and analogies!?"

      absolutely!

      All analogies are false, just like all generalisations are false!

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    18. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      > We're not even talking about bootlegs shared among frineds -- we're talking about a store that's making money.

      Which would not have happened if the bootleg was not recorded of course.

      > If a store is making money by selling an artist's work, then that artist should be making money too.

      True, but a live performance is actually something created by the artist(s) and their public, somethign even a explicitly pro RIAA band like Metallica recognizes and states explicitly.

      If it were such that artists compensate their public for their part in it when a live recording is made and sold officially, they'd also have a strong point against bootlegs.

      As it is, they don't.

    19. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      At a minimum, you'll get your mechanical royalties

      I call bullshit. If you really knew what you were talking about, you would be aware of controlled composition clauses. These are yet another scheme by the RIAA labels to screw the artists. Since you clearly aren't aware of this practice, I'll spell it out for you - it is now entirely too common for an artist to be paid only 75% of their mechanical royalties as a standard contractual clause, particularly for new artists but even established ones get presented with the shaft on this.

      Of course these clauses are negotiable, but as with all contracts, it comes down to who needs who more and you, little penniless artist are a dime a dozen as far as the RIAA is concerned so you can take your 75% and suck it up, or take 0% and suck that up.

      PS, you know what they said about Mussolini right? "At least he made the trains run on time" - that doesn't excuse all the other abusive things he did and getting even a portion of your mechanical royalties certainly does not excuse the RIAA from all the other terrible things they have done just because they were (and remain) in a position to get away with it.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    20. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think his alleged killer was released because the police did not have enough evidence to charge him with a crime, not because he invoked his right to remain silent. The right is a right to remain silent, after all, not a right to avoid prosecution.

      Just so we're clear, the right to remain silent has always existed. Before Miranda, you didn't have to be told about it. Similarly, today you have the right to refuse to be searched (a right you should always invoke). But the cops don't have to say, "Do you mind if I search you? It's OK to say no. If you say no, I'll just let you go."

    21. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by youaredan · · Score: 3, Insightful

      which america do you live in? The police here see the desire not to be searched as equal to guilt. I know from personal experience. Police are not law enforcement here, they are life collectors that recycle people for money like the homeless they arrest do with cans.

      --
      -Digital Extremist // digitale
    22. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure, they see it as equal to guilt. They want to search you, after all. Who cares how they see it? But it's your responsibility to assert your rights.

      Visit http://www.flexyourrights.org/. You deserve to know, and exercise, your rights. Better men than you and I have died for them.

    23. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by youaredan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      well said, well said - but asserting your rights in a system bent on breaking them adds you to the list of hard cases demanding harrassment... to stand up for freedom is one thing, to play dead to get the system to go away so you CAN be free is a whole nother story.

      --
      -Digital Extremist // digitale
    24. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by B1gP4P4Smurf · · Score: 1
      PS, you know what they said about Mussolini right? "At least he made the trains run on time" - that doesn't excuse all the other abusive things he did and getting even a portion of your mechanical royalties certainly does not excuse the RIAA from all the other terrible things they have done just because they were (and remain) in a position to get away with it.

      Invoking Mussolini instead of Hitler to get around Godwin's Law. This is a new low.

    25. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      As the self-titled "father of fascim" Mussolini is entirely appropriate to reference whenever discussing businesses that exist solely because of government help.

      In case you haven't heard it before, Mussolini had this to say about fascism:
      "Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power"

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    26. Re:Duh, they were *selling* the recordings... by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

      The "argument from analogy" fallacy is not a grammar error, it's a logic error. Thank you, the Logic Police.

      --

      --
      make install -not war

  8. Is it possible? by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Funny

    A sensible ruling on copyright terms?

    Dear Mr. Bainwol,

    I apologize for the unpleasant news you are probably reading this morning. We thought we had this one in the bag, but the opposing side actually made better use of solid facts and accurate analysis than we anticipated. I estimate more obfuscation will be needed to win on appeal. We will do our best though.

    Sincerely yours,
    Your Well Paid Lobbyist

    1. Re:Is it possible? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have no fear, Judge Scalia to the rescue!

  9. Offtopic by pjt33 · · Score: 4, Funny
    Did you deliberately adjust the length of that post? My preferences are set to clip long posts at 2k, and clipped it at
    The Recording Industry Ass
    I thought for a second that you were quoting an article from The Register.
  10. Confused; could use some answers... by MedHead · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    First, I would like to know why people would want to listen to live performances. Most often these are songs sung on tour, with the singer half dead from exhaustion. On top of that, acoustics are pretty bad as well! There's also the problem with many singers not being all that great of singers, and peforming pretty poorly outside the studio, but that's not true for every singer.

    Second, are most bootlegs recordings from the mic mix, or from the crowd? If it was the crowd, I ask again, why would anyone want these things?

    Personally, I don't know why live recordings are sold. I don't think they're worth the money.

    1. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Lisandro · · Score: 1

      The only "live" performances i own are some Unplugged concerts (namely: Clapton, Nirvana and Alice In Chains) - it's a good chance to listen how a song is converted from one style to another.

      As for pure live recordings, either bootleged or offical ones, i agree. 90% are not worth the trouble.

    2. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Lank · · Score: 2, Informative

      Usually, if you slip the guy at the mix board a $20 or so, he'll let you hook up a minidisc recorder. Go home, convert the tracks to MP3, and boom - a decent live recording for about the price of a CD.

      --
      Gotta get me one of these!
    3. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by awing0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with you in general, the quality of live recordings leaves a lot to be desired. However, I hold on to some live recordings because bands sometimes play unreleased songs, do covers, and add quirks into existing songs. Also, some up and coming bands only have live recordings of their songs, having not been able to afford studio time yet. Of course, the up and coming bands usually encourage free distribution of their music.

      --
      Cthulhu Saves.
    4. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by chuckychesthair · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not all artists are prefab performers. Some are musicians, actually. There are plenty of artists I like that regularly completely overhaul the arrangements of songs, or play songs they haven't released yet, or play covers that you simply cannot hear studio versions of.

      Besides, it also happens that the studio mix simply isn't very good but that live recordings sound astounding.

      It all comes down to preference, live recordings can add excitement, overview of an artists growth and they can show you songs in a different light, as live artists are prone to let a song breath some more, giving it the room to blossom that simply isn't always possible in studio recordings!

    5. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You obviously aren't much of a music fan.

    6. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Xerxes2695 · · Score: 1

      I disagree. Legitimate live recordings that are taken directly from the mixer feed can be high quality, and truly shine with bands that use improvisation and acoustic or wind instruments. What comes to mind is Jethro Tull's "Living in the Past". I bought this not knowing it was a live recording, and was plesently suprised. It's higher quality than some of the studio recordings I own. Bootleg recordings, however, tend to be from the crowd and of horrible quality as the parent noted.

    7. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      well, ya see, in the past, at concerts, you would get more than just the musicians dancing around to pre-recorded crapola.

      Good musicians never play the same song the same way twice, and so at a live performance, you might have heard a very different version of the songs than what you'd hear on the radio.

      Also, many times live concerts would feature guest musicians, and many times you would hear duets, or sit-ins that you would never hear in studio recordings.

      Of course, nowadays, a concert means nothing more than live dancers & really loud speakers. But back in the day, there was actually a reason to go see your favorite bands live, and record it, even if the sound quality sucked.

      Personally, I'd much rather listen to some really soulful music recorded on a sears-roebuck cassette recorder than soulless crapola recorded in a million-dollar studio. Sound quality isnt NEAR as important as music quality.

      but thats just me.

    8. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by One+Childish+N00b · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Many people want recordings of live performances they've been to, just as a souvenir, kinda like you might buy a T-shirt there, too, or any other article of merchandise. Other people will just buy bootlegs of live performances of certain bands because that makes them more 'hardcore' than fans who just buy the albums in the shops. Thirdly, some bands perform songs live that will never see the light of day on an official album, and so bootlegs are the only way to hear them.

      Secondly, I find most bootlegs are recorded off the soundboard and not some guy with a casette player in the crowd - maybe I just like lenient bands or perhaps I've just been lucky - Bootlegs recorded from the crowd are notoriously awful.

      I think bootlegs are really only for the hardcore fans - regular people won't want them or wont have the will to seek them out. But if you're a dedicated fan, and owning everything there is to possibly own to do with your favourite band is important to you, then a good bootleg of a great performance is more than worth the money.

      --
      Dealing with lawyers would be a lot less tedious if they all looked like Casey Novak.
    9. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by garethw · · Score: 2

      Personal preference, I guess.

      I love live music - IMHO, it's what music is supposed to be. It's organic, spontaneous and human. I really enjoy hearing my favourite bands as they translate their material to a live setting, where they have to deal with the fact that whereas their album was recorded to 64 tracks, they are now just 3 or 4 guys with their instruments, trying to recreate the complexity and richness of a modern studio production.

      A lot of bands ad-lib, insert fragments of other songs into their own, change their riffs around, banter with the crowd. Un-edited live recordings have a kind of personality.

      Boots can be straight from the mixing desk, or they can be recorded from the crowd. But don't dimiss audience recordings until you've heard a really good one - you'd be amazed at what people can capture with highly directional microphones pointed at the PA system speakers. And people have been able to do good audience sound recordings for longer than I'd have guessed. For example, there's a recording of U2 playing on a Mississippi riverboat outside of New Orleans as far back as 1982, and it sounds awesome. It's raw, it's energetic, and the sounds capture is very crisp.

      I guess some folks just love the whole live aspect of music. I'm one of them, but YMMV.

      --
      garethw
    10. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you havent heard the REAL bootlegs (top line mic rigs, DAT etc)

      we are not talking about someone with a $20 mic and a minidisc recorder.

      The atmosphere of those concert show through on a proper tape. (checkout bt.etree.org for some excellent legal live recordings)

    11. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      If you ever saw Stevie Ray Vaugn live in concert, you would understand why. He was significantly better live than on tape. Some music has a more raw, edge to it live, with more energy. This is very common for Blues, but lots of music sounds better live, mistakes and all. Gives you a more real sound that many people, especially musicians like myself, like.

      Then again, some musicians suck live. I try to avoid them on CD as well.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    12. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by pyite · · Score: 1
      *Sigh* I'm not mad at you, but rather mad at the industry that has degraded the reputation of live performances to something to be NOT wanted. It's a shame really. There are so many bands that are so much better live than they are in the studio. That being said, recordings of live music come in three main varieties.
      1. Soundboard recordings (directly recorded from house mix of the show).
      2. Audience recordings (recorded using microphones from the audience).
      3. A mix of the above two, often known as a "matrix" mix.
      While you may scoff at the idea of using microphones to record a live show, I would rather listen to an audience recorded version of a show than its soundboard counterpart. Why? It has the feeling of being there. Soundboard recordings are just that, recordings off the venue's soundboard. These do not sound ideal because the mix is specific to the venue and will contain equalization and other processing to make it sound ideal if it were played back in that venue. Now, when you think of microphones you may think of the cheap $20 variety you can buy for a Karaoke machine. Bands that allow recording (Gov't Mule, Phish, The Dead, moe., etc.) have sections in the venue set up specifically for tapers. Some of these tapers will not hesitate to bring gear to a show worth more than the average car. Such a recording rig consists of microphones, shock absorbing mounts for those microphones, a pre-amp, an analog to digital converter, and a digital recorder in the form of a DAT deck, hard disk based recorder, or laptop. Such equipment produces incredible recordings, recordings which constitute the majority of the music I listen to on a daily basis. Just as a bit of trivia, when you purchase a "live" album in a record store, often times that album will be of the third variety mentioned above, as many sound engineers will have a set of microphones running to record the mix from the audience.

      If you're interested in breaking free from slavery to the RIAA, please visit http://www.etree.org or http://www.archive.org/audio/etree.php where you will find hundreds of artists who not only allow recording of their performances, but who encourage the free distribution thereof.

      --

      "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman

    13. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by MemoryAid · · Score: 1
      After I've heard a song about 100 times on the radio, I get to know it well enough to perceive other interpretations of the song as somehow 'wrong.' Listening to live music, which is always different from performance to performance, helps stave off this effect.

      I will concede, though, that the live music often has missed notes and other errors. It reminds me that professional musicians aren't perfect, they just spend enough time in the studio to perfect the product before release. (Using varying definitions of perfect.)

      --
      Language students: Don't try to learn English here. This ain't it.
    14. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by antiMStroll · · Score: 1

      Yea, those crazy MUSIC fans. Who can possible make sense of the things they do?

    15. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by mobby_6kl · · Score: 1

      Yeah I agree with you on this one. The bootlegs of course suck and aren't worth listening, but normal live recordings kick ass. Generally, I'd say that live albums have more energy, are heavier and faster than studio recordings. A few examples.

      Deep Purple. I dunno, but Made In Japan is simply much better than any studio album. A song that is about 8 minutes on a studio album is almost 20 minutes live!

      AC/DC, any live album. You can hear the crowd screaming "Angus! Angus!" and the solos are extra long, this adds lot to the music. Did I mention that the show itself is excellent?

      Judas Priest. Almost any live recording. In addition to all the other benefits, they often include very old songs that are already rather dull on the original, however the live versions sound very fresh and new.

      Iron Maiden. Something I didn't like... I was on their 2003 concert, and my main problem was that you often couldn hear the singer, words sometimes just dissapeard or sounded weird. That's the only case I can think of where I liked the studio versions more.

    16. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by RdsArts · · Score: 1

      But that raises a intersting question: Namely, why is it that KISS didn't make their name until the first Alive record was released.

      live records are a odd beast. A straight-up live show record can be great if the band is amazing live, but worthless if they're a better studio band. Live records can capture somethign studio albums will miss, a energy and ugency that 20 take, pitch-perfect version of a song can't, and I'd agrue that the power of that is what draws certain people, not the hardcoreness.

      Though, granted, there are a lot of people who just buy them to be hardcore. ( says the ex Misfits fan ;) )

    17. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by TheDormouse · · Score: 1
      First, I would like to know why people would want to listen to studio performances. Most often these are songs sung in a lifeless recording studio, with the singer screaming into a microphone in a tiny room. On top of that, acoustics are dead and lifeless and have to be recreated in postprocessing! There's also the problem with many singers not being all that great of singers, and peforming pretty poorly inside the studio (postprocessing fixing the problems, of course), but that's not true for every singer.

      Second, are most studios recordings from the mic mix, or from an actual listener's vantage point? If it was the completely fabricated and unnatural mic mix, I ask again, why would anyone want these things?

      Personally, I don't know why studio recordings are sold. I don't think they're worth the money.

    18. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by afidel · · Score: 1

      Depends on the band. I went to a Primus concert where people in the crowd had some pretty amazing equipment. One guy had an ~8' high boom with dual condenser mic's at the top. He was recording a true stereo mix to both a laptop and DAT desk (so that he could be sure one device going down didn't leave him without a recording). He emailed me a link to the files a couple days later and they sounding freaking incredible. I know most bands wouldn't let you take that kind of stuff into the concert but it's possible to do with bands with a liberal live recording policy. Btw there are bands like Blues Travelers where their live performance bears almost no resembelance to their recorded material, sure they cover their hits but in a very different way then the recorded version. Then add all the covers and fun stuff they do and the live performance is very different from the albums and I would say much better.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    19. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nice.. i wanted to rip that noob a new one also.

    20. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by MedHead · · Score: 1

      Thanks for the answers, everyone. In my experience, aside from a few bands, I haven't liked the live experience. It's interesting to see how many do like tour sound quality.

    21. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've obviously never heard of Mindless Self Indulgence. It's hard to find bootlegs of their live shows if you don't know where to look but their Alienating Our Audience album is live and it sounds completely sweet and easy to find on P2P.

    22. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Handpaper · · Score: 1
      However, I hold on to some live recordings because bands sometimes play unreleased songs, do covers, and add quirks into existing songs.
      Tell it!
      I admin the website for my brother's band Ahymsa (see sig), which has a few mp3's available for download. I keep telling him that the ones most often hit are the live recordings, and I'm forever pestering him for more. Unfortunately, the small venues (pubs and clubs) the band currently play tend not to have facilities for making recordings (some do, and at least one will, for a fee, provide you with a DVD of your performance along with copyright so that you can dupe and sell it). Even the most basic crossed-mics-at-the-back-of-the-room job would be something.
      There seems to be an extra kudos about stuff that 'you just can't buy'.

    23. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      Depending on the size of the club, the board recording could be a lousy mixed compared to what you're hearing. In a small place a stereo pair above the board (sometimes augmented by the board) can give you a much better mix. A lot of times if you look, the guy at the board is already recording the show with some combination of board and microphones. Bands always want copies of their shows just to hear how they sounded (the sound onstage is usually pretty different from the sound by the mix desk).

    24. Re:Confused; could use some answers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      6 Words...

      I want you to want me.

      Cheap Trick

  11. Here's Reuters... by turnstyle · · Score: 3, Informative

    Here's Reuters

    --
    Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
    1. Re:Here's Reuters... by jrumney · · Score: 1, Funny

      Great. The guy has a rant about using non-US sources for US stories, and you go and rub it in his face even harder.

  12. Now if they could just ... by tomhudson · · Score: 2, Informative
    10-year-old anti-bootlegging law unconstitutional
    Now if they could just apply the same reasoning to bootlegged booze (which is where the term "bootleg" came from).
    1. Re:Now if they could just ... by Guppy06 · · Score: 1

      "Now if they could just apply the same reasoning to bootlegged booze"

      What "same reasoning?" It's still considered copyright violation if you distributed the recording free of charge (say, on a P2P network), but federal law is pretty explicit that you don't need to pay alchohol taxes on homemade beer or wine intended for personal/family/household use, up to 200 gallons per year. Heck, you can legally brew the stuff even if you're not legally old enough to purchase it.

      Don't like bootleg laws? Remember: beer wants to be free (as in speech as in beer as in speech)!

  13. Related links to this story by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
  14. 'think about your breathing' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't see that in the article.

  15. NY Post by ari_j · · Score: 3, Informative

    Sure, here's the New York Post's article.

    Or did you want a legitimate source? Try USA Today.

    1. Re:NY Post by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 2, Funny

      Great... The Post or USA Today. Nice choice. It's like asking a man with peanut allergies if he'd prefer smooth or chunky.

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    2. Re:NY Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sig comment.
      That doesn't really work because "too big" suggests that the glass cannot be filled which is another way of saying it's half empty.
      Maybe the glass has just enough space left to carry upstairs to the computer room without spilling.

    3. Re:NY Post by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 0, Redundant

      Great... The Post or USA Today. Nice choice. It's like asking a man with peanut allergies if he'd prefer smooth or chunky.

      I'm glad you're referring to newspapers and not bukake.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    4. Re:NY Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Could be worse. It could be "fair and Blanced" Fox news. Let's see, does this support the republican party; Nope. Than outlaw it.

    5. Re:NY Post by ThatsNotFunny · · Score: 1

      RNC, oops, I mean FNC and the Post are owned by the same company.

      --
      "Was it a millionaire who said 'Imagine No Posessions?'" -- Elvis Costello
    6. Re:NY Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hey dumbass moderator:

      Definition of redundant.

      I think you wanted to use "off topic" instead, but you're obviously too retarded to know the difference. Schmuck!

  16. isn't that the point? by TheQwe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ..."seemingly perpetual protection."
    Isn't that the point of copyright laws? to protect the author/creator/composer/whatever?

    1. Re:isn't that the point? by p-hawk42 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The point of copyright is to let the creator profit off of his/her work for a time, but not to keep the work out of the public domain perpetually.

    2. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes copyright laws exist to protect the creator, but only for a limited time, so that eventually the work can belong to the public.

    3. Re:isn't that the point? by idesofmarch · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perpetual protection is unconstitutional. Article 1, Clause 8, provides Congress with the power to "promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries."

    4. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Copyright gives the CREATOR rights to the work for a LIMITED time. Please do some reading on the concept.

      Recent issues revolve around how long LIMITED time should be. Sonny Bono copyright act (in USA) extended it to 70 years past death of artist. How the artists is benefiting at that stage is obscure.

    5. Re:isn't that the point? by cwsulliv · · Score: 1

      .."seemingly perpetual protection."
      Isn't that the point of copyright laws? to protect the author/creator/composer/whatever?

      The US Constititution grants Congress the power to provide copyright protection "for a limited time".

      (In practise in recent years this means that whenever the "limited time" is close to expiration, Congress extends it for another "limited time".)

    6. Re:isn't that the point? by TheQwe · · Score: 1

      So the problem isn't the protection but the perpetuity. I get it now.

    7. Re:isn't that the point? by chrisopherpace · · Score: 1

      But perpetual protection of Mickey Mouse is ok, assuming enough funds have been paid to corrupt officials.

    8. Re:isn't that the point? by koreth · · Score: 4, Insightful
      No, that's not the point of copyright law. Protecting artists is a means, not an end, much as the RIAA might wish otherwise. The point of American copyright laws -- as stated quite unambiguously in the US Constitution -- is to encourage the creation of new work. To achieve that goal, the framers of the Constitution envisioned a bargain between creators and everyone else: creators get the exclusive right to make copies of their work for a limited time, after which the work becomes the property of society as a whole (public domain) and thus available as a starting point for the next generation of artists and authors.

      There is no law of nature that stops an idea from spreading from one person to another, even if the idea is in the form of a catchy tune or a long set of words that make up a novel. Copyright law is therefore a restriction of the people's freedom, and it's not in the spirit of the Constitution to restrict the people's freedom without giving them some benefit in return. The "limited time" concept is that benefit: by giving creators extra incentive to create, it says to the people, "Hold off spreading new ideas around for a little while, and there will be more of them for you to play with later." Without the second part of that sentence, the law is simply a restriction of freedom with very little public benefit to make up for it.

      That's the theory, anyway. In my opinion current copyright law is already excessive in that a work created the day you're born will not be available to you to build upon until you're on your deathbed.

      It is worth observing that the people who argue most strenuously for infinite copyright terms are very rarely the creators of copyrighted works -- they're the publishers of those works. Listen to what the actual artists say and you'll hear a different tune: artists realize that they stand on the shoulders of giants, and that everything they create is based on what's come before. Without that cultural heritage to freely draw upon, creators suffer just as much as everyone else.

    9. Re:isn't that the point? by antiMStroll · · Score: 1
      "But perpetual protection of Mickey Mouse is ok,...

      Not perpetual: "perpetual". Two lifetimes isn't really forever, it only appears that way to mortals. SCOTUS can't help it if you don't live for 300 years, excercise more.

    10. Re:isn't that the point? by Richard_at_work · · Score: 1

      Mickey Mouse is a trademark. Whole different kettle of mice.

    11. Re:isn't that the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      I find it ironic that everyone uses Disney as the whipping boy of all that's wrong with copyright when in fact they exemplify how the system does, and should work. Many arguing for shorter copyright terms are only doing so because they simply want shit for free. Disney, on the other hand, uses what's in the public domain already and creates wonderful works of art and culture. There's nothing stopping you from doing your own animateds versions of Alice in Wonderland or the Sword in the Stone if you want except your lack of talent and motivation to actually add to the creative pool. You simply want to get your copy of the latest film o album for free so you argue that copyrights are stifling creativity and evil monopolies used by greedy corporations to hold the little guy back.

      By the way, Mickey Mouse, as well as his friends Donald, Goofy, Minnie and Pluto, amongst others, are protected by Trademark law and not Copyright law. Their protection is indefinite so you'll never be able to create a Mickey Mouse movie but you'll soon be able to distribute Steamboat Willie to all your friends. I'm guessing that's not going to be a popular P2P title though.

    12. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God please read the constitution. Limited times.

    13. Re:isn't that the point? by Tim+C · · Score: 2, Informative

      Disney, on the other hand, uses what's in the public domain already and creates wonderful works of art and culture... you argue that copyrights are stifling creativity

      You know, Disney using stuff from the public domain and copyrights stifling innovation are not mutually exclusive. In fact, if Alice in Wonderland, Peter Pan, etc were still under copyright, Disney may well not have been able to make their versions, would they?

    14. Re:isn't that the point? by TheSpoom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Disney, on the other hand, uses what's in the public domain already and creates wonderful works of art and culture. But what do you do when Disney allows nobody else to use these public domain works because they have copyrights and trademarks on them due to their remake?

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    15. Re:isn't that the point? by uberdave · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the movie Toy Story, as with many animated movies, there are many people involved with animating each character. The stories themselves may be the collaberation of multiple writers. Who then is the CREATOR of the work? Beyond the death of which artist should this work be protected? Do we have to wait 70 years past the death of the last Beatle, or 70 years past when they broke up? Or do we have to wait 70 years after Michael Jackson dies before Yellow Submarine becomes public domain?

    16. Re:isn't that the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      There is no way Disney, or anyone else, could Trademark these characters. I'm not concerned and anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is simply fearmongering.

    17. Re:isn't that the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      No, they wouldn't have made them, they would have used other works in the public domain. The simple fact remains that the public domain will always exist and work will always be placed there. Sure, for a short while we will have fewer works wind up there but after the recent Eldred case, it is clear that Congress and the lobbyists for more copyright protection have won their last battle. SCOTUS implied that while they are not going to specify what "limited time" in the U.S. Constitution means, they do believe the current limit of life of author plus 75 years is pretty much it and any attempt to lengthen it will likely be overturned should another Eldred case be brought before them. The Public Domain is not shrinking despite what Lessig tells you. It is merely taking on fewer pieces for a short while until copyright limits normalize again and the rate of growth will once more depend upon how many artists are creating work for the public to appreciate.

      The problem is, current attacks on the copyright system do not take this into account and have only been brought about because millions of people want to distribute, illegally, current works protected under ANY form of copyright protection this country has ever seen. It is unrealistic to not only think that musicians can make a living touring, it is unbelievably naive to think that what works for musicians will work for all other artists. Should painters, sculptors and photographers have to tour their work too while allowing anyone who wants to publish their work in a book and sell them without compensating the artist?

    18. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sure, for a short while we will have fewer works wind up there but after the recent Eldred case, it is clear that Congress and the lobbyists for more copyright protection have won their last battle.

      "Nothing to see here! Nothing to see...nothing, nothing. Look at those hard-working Congresspersons, making sure your rights are still in place!"

      Uh huh. Do you have a bridge I could evaluate for purchase, perhaps?
    19. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      It is unrealistic to not only think that musicians can make a living touring, it is unbelievably naive to think that what works for musicians will work for all other artists.
      ...except, of course, these things got produced long before trademark law was introduced. Other than that, of course, it would be terribly naive.
    20. Re:isn't that the point? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Disney also has a low cost approach to the customer to replacing damaged CDs and DVDs that reflects them not trying to have it both ways. (Where "it" is claiming the 'consumer' bought a physical medium when that suits the copyright holder, then claiming the 'consumer' is only liscencing an IP item whenever that would be in the holder's favor). Send a damaged DVD back to Disney, and you will get a replacement at a cost that really is pretty close to the cost of the physical medium and shipping and handling charges. Disney could probably manage that department with an eye towards doing even better by their loyal customers, but several of the other big IP firms are much worse.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    21. Re:isn't that the point? by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Copyright on work for hire, done to the specifications of a corporation, is 99 years after the work's being established in a fixed form. It doesn't matter in such cases, how long the corporation itself 'lives'.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    22. Re:isn't that the point? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, You are wrong.
      Millions of people want to distribute those works _legally_.

      It is impossible right now, but this's subject to change.

    23. Re:isn't that the point? by stubear · · Score: 1

      I had no idea Disney did this. Even more evidence that their position as the whipping boy of all that is evil with Copyright is wrong.

    24. Re:isn't that the point? by stephanruby · · Score: 2, Insightful
      The point of copyright is to let the creator profit off of his/her work for a time, but not to keep the work out of the public domain perpetually.

      A point of clarification.

      The original intent of copyright law was to let the public enjoy the benefits of the work perpetually in exchange for a temporary monopoly. The temporary monopoly was only granted as a side-effect of the original intent, it was not even the original intent.

      So if you had been an artist who refused to share your work with the public, your work would not have received the benefit of copyright protection.

    25. Re:isn't that the point? by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I did read the Supreme Court majority opinion in Eldred v. Ashcroft.

      What I see the supreme court saying in Eldred is that the don't feel that Congress *intended* to create perpetual copyrights. Because the intention of Congress is quite clear and because the terms are still technically limited (life plus 70 or 100 years total for corporate works), they feel that Congress was still within their authority even if this protection is offered in retrospect.

      The Supreme Court did *not* say that perpetual copyright was allowed, but rather that this did not amount to it.

      I might disagree with the lengthening of copyright by congress, but I have to say that the Court did the right thing by saying that Congress is the correct venue for this discussion while retaining the right to strike down extensions in the future. By focusing on the "intention" of congress, the supreme court is leaving the door open to change their mind later. I only wish there was more guidance for what was meant by limited times....

      Can Congress extend copyright laws to say, 1000 years? 1000000 years? These are still technically limited.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    26. Re:isn't that the point? by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      Many arguing for shorter copyright terms are only doing so because they simply want shit for free.

      That's kind of the point, MPAA fanboy. The Constitution - y'know, the one that YOU must abide by along with all the rest of us mere mortals - allows Congress to temporarily grant IP the status of artificial property, after which it enters the public domain.

      And becomes FREE.

      Without that clause, all IP would be free from the get-go.

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    27. Re:isn't that the point? by The+Conductor · · Score: 1

      Can Congress extend copyright laws to say, 1000 years? 1000000 years? These are still technically limited.

      I can't remember if it got into the majority opinion, but that issue did come up. There is precedent for laws against perpetuities, avoiding real estate regulations by not selling a property, but leasing it for a zillion years, and so on. Most of these laws have time limits comparable to the current length of copyrights.

      The Brits, however, don't seem to have a problem with thousand-year (or more) leases. Look at the real estate market in Chelsea and everyone is selling (or re-assigning, I guess) 999 year leases. Don't know what purpose that serves; maybe someone has to technically own the whole lot of 'em to claim some title of nobility (Earl of Chelsea?). But then I don't know what purpose a title of nobility serves, either.

    28. Re:isn't that the point? by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      My impression was that this issue was deliberately omitted from the majority opinion in order to force the Supreme Court to revisit the matter in the event that it is abused.

      Sort of like the definition of "cruel and unusual" punishment. Our copyright terms are OK because they are in line with other developed nations. Hence they are not unusually long or burdensome. IANAL, and this opinion comes with NO WARRANTY.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    29. Re:isn't that the point? by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      The Brits, however, don't seem to have a problem with thousand-year (or more) leases. Look at the real estate market in Chelsea and everyone is selling (or re-assigning, I guess) 999 year leases. Don't know what purpose that serves; maybe someone has to technically own the whole lot of 'em to claim some title of nobility (Earl of Chelsea?). But then I don't know what purpose a title of nobility serves, either.

      As I understand it, the whole "999 year lease" kinda stuff is, as you indicated, a leftover from the ol' monarchy. Technically, the land is owned by the lord, but the terms of the leases are such that buying the lease is the same as owning it in all but name. They have no problem with it because it's just a convenient legal fiction that allows, for example, the Queen of England to own a large percentage of London, while at the same time the properties are almost entirely under the control of private entities.

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    30. Re:isn't that the point? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but couldn't they trademark the LIKENESSES of the characters? If I'm not mistaken, for example, Marvel holds a trademark on the comic-likeness of Thor, though obviously they can't trademark a centuries-old religious icon. Wouldn't it be the same for Disney's Peter Pan, who dresses like Link (even tho Peter Pan was around first, you know what I mean) as opposed to, say, the one from "Peter Pan and the Pirates" (an 80's Fox cartoon)

    31. Re:isn't that the point? by joebeone · · Score: 1

      As the other person who replied said, with "works for hire" it doesn't matter how many creators or authors take part... its 99 years past the date of publication or 125 years after it was created (whichever comes first). (I might have the time periods wrong by a bit... but it's comparable)

  17. "Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yeah, like it wasn't newsworthy when people egged Bush's limo during the inauguration procession back in 2001-- something which had never happened before to any President during their inauguration.

    I still can't believe that the first time I saw that footage or even heard that it happened was when I saw Fahrenheit 9/11.

    In light of that, it won't surprise me at all if this ruling doesn't merit a mention by any big-media news outlet.

    1. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      Do you realize that that made-in-my-basement movie has grossed almost US$119M? My god! Extreme politicism sure sells tickets, huh? BTW, based on his record with Bowling for Columbine, I wouldn't trust everything I saw in 9/11...

    2. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      You don't trust Moore's stuff? Great for you!

      I, for one, am saddened that most people don't investigate issues they care about; whichever side of the fence they stand on. Moore, in my opinion, twisted things around in BfC a little too much (and I'm a Democrat), but also in my opinion, he did pretty good in F-9/11.

      It's like McCain bitching to Moore at the Repblican party thing-a-magig. He never even seen the movie, and just jumped to conclusions.

      If people would just investigate a LITTLE more, the world would be a better place.

    3. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      based on his record with Bowling for Columbine, I wouldn't trust everything I saw in 9/11...

      Yeah, I'm sure those wide shots of a large crowd lining the streets and eggs splattering against the limo were all CGI.

      I think out of everything in the movie, that segment of video is the most unassailable from a credibility standpoint.

    4. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by KarmaMB84 · · Score: 1

      You'll notice they were all photoshopped Michael Moores!

    5. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Michael Moore is a propagandist through-and-through. He doesn't just "twist things around a little too much," he attempts to use deception to manipulate your emotions so that you'll support his political leanings and thus empower him (feeding his ego).

      Rallying around him degrades the quality of the left. I wish he would find conservatism and get a job with Fox News so he can crazy-up the Republican side of the fence for a while. He'll seem normal there.

    6. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "Extreme politicism sure sells tickets, huh?"

      Sure does. Just ask Fox News or Rush Limbaugh.

      "based on his record with Bowling for Columbine, I wouldn't trust everything I saw in 9/11..."

      If you have something specific then by all means point it out. Many people have tried to discredit film but with very little success. Mostly nitpicky stuff and cries of "unfair he is not presenting the whole truth like Rush does".

      Anyway the topic was about Bush getting egged. Are you saying it didn't happen? Was the footage he included in the film CGI?

      --
      evil is as evil does
    7. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      OK... I thought that the topic was bootlegs and copyright laws, but anyway...


      My post's topic was that I had never heard of a documentary making
      so much money, and that Moore must've netted a serious amount of cash for highly politicized views.

      My addendum doesn't make any statements that he falsified anything, just that, maybe even more than usual for documentaries because BfC has shown liberties taken, one should be careful of: clips out of context; quotes edited for content; and editorial comments that don't reflect the material completely.

    8. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by killjoe · · Score: 1

      " Moore must've netted a serious amount of cash for highly politicized views."

      Not nearly as much as Murdoch, Limbaugh, O'reilly, Savage, Coulter or any of the other dozens of right wing zealots who populate the airwaves and the shelves of your local bookstore.

      "one should be careful of: clips out of context; quotes edited for content; and editorial comments that don't reflect the material completely."

      Really? Wow! What an amazing statement. You mean that if Kerry votes for one version of a bill and votes against another version of that bill he is not really a flip flopper?

      --
      evil is as evil does
    9. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wouldn't trust everything I saw in 9/11...

      Since you are repsonding to a post about the shots of GW's car getting egged at his inauguration not making it on to the news, I take it you think that those shots were faked?

      Wow, that's quite a conspiracy theory you've got there. I wonder why no one from the Bush administration has clarified that those events never happened?

    10. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by RedCard · · Score: 1

      You mean that if Kerry votes for one version of a bill and votes against another version of that bill he is not really a flip flopper?

      Let's hand this one to Wiley: Best flip-flopper comic ever!

    11. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      You mean that if Kerry votes for one version of a bill and votes against another version of that bill he is not really a flip flopper?
      He may or may not be, depending on the specific wording of those bills and and pork attached to them. You need details, though, and not just sound bites to determine that.

      I have to tell you that, because you keep acting like I am familiar with Murdoch, Limbaugh, O'reilly, Savage, Coulter or any of the other dozens of right wing zealots who populate the airwaves, I live in Asia and am not really familiar with the US political/media situation, so you needn't act like I am constantly sarcastic.

      My original point stands: Moore made an enormous amount of money off of a fairly low budget motion picture. That is a remarkable feat, and I will expect other highly politicized movies to try and ride his coat tails.

    12. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      I take it you think that those shots were faked?
      That's quite an assumption. Actually, my comment was primarily about the money made by the film compared to it's budget. The "Don't take things at face value" was just a general warning, considering that I haven't had the opportunity to watch 9/11 here in rural South Korea. I probably wouldn't, though, even if it were shown in a theater within 100km of here, because I don't follow the US political scene.

      You need to calm yourself down a little and not jump the gun...

    13. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 1
      The complaints that I saw about Bowling for Columbine were mostly technical -- things like the way that he edited together bits of speeches by Clint Eastwood. What they didn't seem to be aware of is that News Sources like NBC news and Fox do much the same on a daily basis.

      I've done my own low-budget documentary, and what I can say from experience is that condensing more than 60 hours of footage down to 50 minutes of documentary is not an easy thing to do. There will be distortions. Unless you release the unedited text (like I did here), then the only choice is how you're gonna warp things.

      I've been on the inside of enough news stories to know that the 'big' media regularly induce distortions into what they report. My start into the area of politica and communications came from a recognition of such a distortion which left me both shocked and disgusted.

      Moore is very open that he has an aze to grind, and how he's grinding it. As far as I'm concerened, this is the best he can do. It's far better than news sources like the NYT and FOX, ABC, etc. that pretend to be neutral but are, in fact, far from it.

      (See, for example, the previous comment about big US media not bothering to report rulings against copyright prosecutions).

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    14. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by killjoe · · Score: 1

      "That is a remarkable feat, and I will expect other highly politicized movies to try and ride his coat tails."

      My point is that he is late to the game. All those people I mentioned have already published numerous right wing zealotry and have made a lot of money.

      They think that democrats are demons, traitors and the enemy of the United States.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    15. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      They think that democrats are demons, traitors and the enemy of the United States.
      How is that germaine tothe discussion? What does it matter what they think, since I am talking about money? I see a lot of apparent liberals on Slashdot who feel the same way about people who support Bush.

      I doubt that any of the "political commentators" that you mentioned are even in the same ballpark as US$119M in about 4 months. That kind of money for political views has to be new.

    16. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      I'm talking specifically about the "opening a bank account and walking out with a gun," section, which was apparently re-enacted and fictionalized to some extent without telling the viewers.

    17. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Ruber Murdoch is a multi billionaire. He makes an insane amount of money furthering the republican cause all over the globe. To him Moore is just chump change.

      As for others they have all written books and have radio and TV shows. Over the years they have made much more money then moore.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    18. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      You'll notice that I said "in four months," because this film is showing (on Yahoo) a release time of 13 weeks.

    19. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Jesus man give it will you. What kind of an insane nitpicking is that?

      Here digest this. Rupert Murdoch probably makes more in one day that Micheal Moore has made in his entire lifetime.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    20. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by Daengbo · · Score: 1

      Since (as I've said previously) I am neither interested nor involved in the US political scene, and I have repeatedly tried to explain that this type of media was extremely successful for probably the first time in history, I think that you are the one trying to pick a fight here, not me. Let it rest. Show me another US$100M+ documentary, and I'll answer you. Otherwise, consider this conversation ended.

      P.S. You should rename yourself, "KillJoy." Don't take life so seriously.

    21. Re:"Managed" news in the US? The hell you say! by LittleLebowskiUrbanA · · Score: 1

      He's definitely got a chip on his shoulder, doesn't he? Nice try at the civilized debate with him though.

  18. Confusion by p-hawk42 · · Score: 4, Funny
    From the article:

    "It stands in marked contrast to existing law and prior decisions that have determined that Congress was well within its constitutional authority to adopt legislation that prevented trafficking in copies of unauthorised performances of live music," spokesman Jonathan Lamy said.

    So the performances were illegal?

    1. Re:Confusion by s4m7 · · Score: 1

      not illegal.

      unauthorised.

      --
      This comment is fully compliant with RFC 527.
  19. Article text, in case of slashdotting by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    A judge has struck down a law which bans the sale of bootleg recordings of live music in the United States.

    Judge Harold Baer Jr, sitting in New York, dismissed charges against a Manhattan-based record dealer which had been brought under the law.

    He said the law could not stand because it placed no time limit on the ban - unlike the limits placed on books or recorded music releases.

    Prosecutors said they were "reviewing the decision" the judge made.

    A federal grand jury indicted Jean Martignon in October 2003 for selling "unauthorised recordings of live performances by certain music artists through his business".

    But Judge Baer said US law unfairly granted "seemingly perpetual protection" to the original performances.

    US law defines bootlegs as being recordings of the original performances, as opposed to copies of already released music, such as live albums, which are dealt with under piracy legislation.

    The Recording Industry Association of America criticised the judge's ruling.

    "It stands in marked contrast to existing law and prior decisions that have determined that the RIAA can do whatever it wants to you, bitch," greedy spokesman Jonathan Lamy said.

  20. More details by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    from newsday.com

    BY LOU DOLINAR
    STAFF WRITER

    September 25, 2004

    Long before there was Napster, there were concert tapes, live recordings made and swapped by fans of groups like the Grateful Dead and Country Joe and the Fish. Those recordings have narrow constitutional protection from copyright, a judge in Manhattan ruled Friday, handing the Recording Industry Association of America's anti-piracy crusade another defeat.

    The ruling came in the criminal case against a longtime fixture in the New York music scene, J.D. Martignon, owner of the Midnight Record store on 23rd Street in Chelsea. At issue was a federal law that criminalizes the sale of bootleg recording of live performances. U.S. District Judge Harold Beard said the law was unconstitutional because it sets no limits on the length of copyright.

    Copyright law covers a work for life of the author plus 70 years. The 1994 criminal anti-bootlegging statute runs afoul of that legal standard because it "grants seemingly perpetual protection to live musical performances."

    Martignon, a former rock singer and writer for a French music publication, had offered about 1,000 individual concert sessions for sale for between $10 and $20 per concert at his store, which closed after the government seized his stock as evidence, his attorney, Legal Aid lawyer David Patton, said. He could have gone to prison for 5 years. Martignon said Friday that he's still selling vintage recordings legally at his Web site, https://midnightrecords.com/ index.html, but he can't offer concert tapes pending appeal of the ruling.

    "We are reviewing the decision and will evaluate what steps are to be taken going forward," a spokesman for the U.S. attorney's office said.

    Patton said Friday the ruling solely affects concert tapes of performances where artists do not record their own work for copyright or sale.

    "This is not about illegally making copies of CDs," he said. Under the ruling, he said, artists can protect live works merely by recording and copyrighting them, and states can still outlaw live recording.

    Edit: No sympathy for those selling pirated works. Jail the f*****.

  21. Way to go, Asshat! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    Seems when your fat, sweaty fingers were busy copying that article, you didn't (couldn't?) read the last line:

    > Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press

    For those who are contemplating doing the same thing and risking the threat of civil proscecution, you better learn something about copyrights first.

  22. That's weird... by the_skywise · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm all for restrictions on copyright terms to reasonable limits...
    But when you consider that it's illegal to record live performances ANYWAY there's no copyright on those recordings to begin with (because their illegit recordings the very nature of those recordings are outlawed) If the band makes a recording of that performance then normal copyright (and the usual limitations) apply.

    So if it's illegal to make those recordings, then it's illegal to sale those recordings and it doesn't make sense for the judge to rule that those illegally made recordings should someday become legal because the copyright term has passed.

    On the FLIP side however, if this ruling stands and it'll eventually become legal to sell bootleg copies... then it should be LEGAL to make bootlegs to begin with... because it's infringing on my right to someday sell those recordings!

    1. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      depending on the band, it may well not be illegal to record.

      many bands allow this.

    2. Re:That's weird... by idesofmarch · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason it is (or at least was) illegal to record live performances, is because of copyright. I think you are getting too caught up in the "copy" part of copyright. A copy does not need to be of another recording - a recording of a live performance constitutes a copy, because you are copying the broadcast.

    3. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Goddamn, America is full of a bunch of illiterate buffoons. The infinite form is "to sell" not "to sale."

    4. Re:That's weird... by dgodwin · · Score: 5, Informative

      Recording live performances is allowed in some cases. Not only with jam bands that have followed the Dead and Phish in their stance on live recording. Other bands and artists are cool with it too. They realize that, by allowing shows to be recorded, they are potentially increasing their fanbase, as well as increasing the number of people at a show. I've been to shows to tape, based solely on a recommendation to go see and tape their show.

      Many bands are now allowing their live shows to be posted on the archive http://www.archive.org/audio/etree.php and there's always bit torrent as well http://tracker.bargainville.org/ http://bt.easytree.org/

      Taping shows for personal, non-commercial use should be ok. Selling is what should be illegal

    5. Re:That's weird... by Vlad_the_Inhaler · · Score: 1

      You missed one in the original article (which you did read? "It stands in marked contrast to existing law and prior decisions that have determined that Congress was well within its constitutional authority to adopt legislation that prevented trafficking in copies of unauthorised performances of live music," spokesman Jonathan Lamy said.

      Um - come again: "trafficking in copies of unauthorised performances of live music"

      Who said those performances were unauthorised? By whom?

      Sheesh.

      --
      Mielipiteet omiani - Opinions personal, facts suspect.
    6. Re:That's weird... by Our+Man+In+Redmond · · Score: 1

      It's only illegal if the performer doesn't consent to the recording. Some, but not all, do.

      --
      Someone you trust is one of us.
    7. Re:That's weird... by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm not sure I understand your logic. You say it's illegal to make a copy of a live performance because it's a broadcast. But then, isn't every recording made a copy of a broadcast, be it made by your voice, others voices, or off some broadcast mechanism like the internet/telephone/radio. If I'm just recording myself talking and the radio is on, am I violating the law? It seems to me that it's really hard to claim that it is because fundamentally you're making it very difficult for people to ever record anything.

      It'd seem that such a recording would clearly then fall as illegal/legal based on fair use. Ie, recording a concert you went to to relive it surely is for personal, non-commercial use and would likely be fair use. So would having background music you're singing to in a recording that you end up playing for your friends some times. But, when you start selling such recordings, it seems reasonable to see that as illegal because it's against fair use.

      I'd assume that the ban was put in place to stop personal use and to better clarify that bootlegs couldn't be sold. Case-law, though, should have been sufficient though, given how clear selling bootlegs is commercial which almost always innately throws out the exception of fair use.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    8. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But when you consider that it's illegal to record live performances ANYWAY there's no copyright on those recordings to begin with

      Why is it illegal if the performance is not copyrighted? Someone want to tell me which specific law forbids this (the recording, not the resale)?

    9. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...and it's specifically copyright law that gives the performer the authority to prohibit recording. This is why the court case involves the copyright clause of the constitution.

    10. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "it's illegal to record live performances ANYWAY"

      Wrong.

    11. Re:That's weird... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "a recording of a live performance constitutes a copy"

      Wrong. It happens to be physically impossible to copy a live performance of any kind. Although you are usually free to make your best effort to do so, there will be an uncountable number of differences between your performance and someone else's.

      When a live performance is recorded in some fixed fashion such as on videotape, then that recording can be copied, which may or may not be legal, depending on the circumstances.

  23. for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    I can understand why the guy had charges brought against him, assuming they were posted notices prohibiting the recording of the concert. I think that since bootlegs are illegal in the first place, that having a limit on the ban is silly. That simply invites people to wait for the statute of limitations or the copyright to run out, whichever ends up passing first. Then they ebay the cd or dvd for about 50 jillion dollars to rabid collectors. The only way to fight the problem would be to search for huge caches of no-yet-released bootleg recordings. Whether or not the industry is charging rediculous prices for albums doesn't change the fact that the artist and the company they're contracted to should get the money for their work. You can be certain that the record store owner wasn't sending a check to EMI every month with "your portion from the sale of home-made concert cd's" in the memo block. Don't our judges have better things to do than striking down laws that actually make sense?

    1. Re:for crying out loud! by idesofmarch · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Why should a recording of a live performance have any greater copyright protection than a pressed music CD? Under the current law, 1000 years from now, that recording of the live performance would still fall under protection, which is probably unconstitutional.

    2. Re:for crying out loud! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      how is a bootleg going to affect the compensation of the artist?

      if the artist isnt selling the concert recording, they are not losing anything.

      a concert is a one time deal, if i listen to a recording of a concert last night, did the artist lose money because i didnt attend it?

      doubtful

    3. Re:for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because the recording shouldn't exist. If the artist wants to have a cd burner farm behind the stage that tosses mixboard recordings into the crowd, then that's fine and great.

      You aren't understanding the situation. It isn't the recording of the live performance that has protection. Eric Clapton's live recordings that you can buy off Amazon have the same protection as his studio work. The problem is that with bootlegs, the artists aren't getting a say in whether a recording is made of their concert. If they wanted a live recording of their concert, they would exlicitly allow the listeners to make their own, or publish it themselves and make some more money off of their own efforts Terrible, I know. Why can't more artists take vows of poverty...

      When someone who hasn't received permission to records the concert, that makes the recording illegal because it violates the artist's copyright.

      When a concert is televised, do you think the networks didn't receive permission to do so? If they didn't, people would be charged, fined, and sued into bankruptsy. It is the same concept, just not on as grand of a scale.

    4. Re:for crying out loud! by idesofmarch · · Score: 1
      I think you have a very good point about the ability of the recording to even exist. I would assume that at a private venue, the management has a right to prohibit recordings. Even without the explicit prohibition, whoever made the original recording clearly violated copyright law.

      Where this gets complicated is when, despite the legalities, a recording does get made. The record dealer did not make the recording, so he cannot be in violation of copyright law as far as that goes. However, in theory, he (or his heirs!) should be able to hang on to the recording until copyright protection on that work ends, and then be able to copy it and sell it at that point.

    5. Re:for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      The artist isn't getting a chance to sell the concert recording. They weren't even asked. The intent of the person doing the recording doesn't change the fact that the artist needs a say.

      The attitude of many artists suggests that they would probably not have any problem with you or me paying the mixer for a live recording. But that same artist will surely have a problem with me burning copies and selling them. And I KNOW the production company is going to have a problem with it. The record store owner should be glad that charges were pressed instead of a civil suit.

      "a concert is a one time deal, if i listen to a recording of a concert last night, did the artist lose money because i didnt attend it?
      doubtful"

      Maybe you couldn't make it to the concert, maybe you just didn't feel like paying 50 bucks for a cheap ticket. That comes down to what you feel is right. But if you paid your friend more than the cost of the CD for it, then we have a problem.

    6. Re:for crying out loud! by djeaux · · Score: 1
      I can understand why the guy had charges brought against him, assuming they were posted notices prohibiting the recording of the concert.
      Many of the most popular bootleg live performances date from the 1960s & 1970s, when such notices were not very common. Here's a definitive history of the "other recording industry".
      --
      "Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)
    7. Re:for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      If the record dealer didn't make the recordings, then he should still get nailed for disribution of stolen or illegal goods. And whoever did the actual recording should get hit too. I don't think the recording has any copyright protection, since it isn't a sanctioned recording. It should probably be destroyed by law enforcement.

    8. Re:for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      Hm. Still bootleg. While notices are *often* for people with no common sense, they are usually needed to make charges stick. Far too often, ignorance IS an excuse.

    9. Re:for crying out loud! by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      my parent goes half the day with 2 positive mods, then gets nailed as flamebait?

  24. The Dead are Dead and suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have heard quite a bit of Greatful Dead's music, and I still think they suck ass! So N'yah!

    1. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fair 'nuff. Most people ive talked to about this cant even name one of their songs, besides that "driving that train high on cocaine song"

      I've even had a few people tell me that they thought GD was heavy metal LOL

    2. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Pharmboy · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Just the idea of barefoot people who don't bathe trying to sell you cheese sandwiches in the parking lot, to raise money to get to the next show, is enough to gag me. Jesus, you can love music and STILL have proper hygiene. Deadheads were just plain nasty, at least the one's I knew.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    3. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and the quality of their fans determines the quality of their music in what way?

      Im no fan of beer-drinking trailer trash, but im not going to use that to imply that all NASCAR drivers are unskilled drivers.

    4. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are right, I was mistaken. In reality, the vast majority of Deadheads at the concerts are wearing suits and ties, and drinking champagne. I think most were even driving BMW's...

      Obviously, you have never met any people who actually followed the Dead.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
    5. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so, in your view then, only bands whos followers "are wearing suits and ties, and drinking champagne. I think most were even driving BMW's." are worth listening to?

      I thought you sounded like a big Kenny G fan. Or, are you more into the Billy Joel crowd?

    6. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Wateshay · · Score: 1

      Well, the other day, I did see a deadhead sticker on a Cadillac ;-)

      --

      "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for everyone else."

    7. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      lol, funny you should say that... theres a dead head sticker on my BMW

    8. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      There's a saying, "The smellier the hippy, the bigger the trust fund."

      That being said, allow me to steer us back to the topic, by noting that the Dead had a sound business model. They made a great deal of money from their shows. They grew and maintained their fan base by such fan friendly policies.

      I went to one Dead show in the 80s and never went to another, because I couldn't stand the Deadheads. On the other hand, I went to see the Jerry Garcia Band 8 times. I'm sure most of the audience at those performances were Deadheads, but they weren't the really annoying (and smelly) idiots.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    9. Re:The Dead are Dead and suck. by Pharmboy · · Score: 1

      I'm sure, the Dead have fans that span all economic catagories. I was refering to the ones who used to follow them all over the US tho.

      --
      Tequila: It's not just for breakfast anymore!
  25. Fly by Night Express by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In the true rock & roll tradition, Midnight Records, the NYC bootleg store that was exonerated by this ruling, has an invalid certificate installed in their webserver. Apparently their server host self-certifies, without membership in a trust network including popular web browsers. It's these borderline operators, who take the risks at the edges of the protection of our liberty, who wind up protecting us all.

    --

    --
    make install -not war

  26. Oh, great by bullitB · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...a federal judge declaring a 10-year-old anti-bootlegging law unconstitutional

    Well, this is certainly great for all those 10-year-old bootleggers out there.

  27. Burn Live® by your pals at ClearChannel by Safety+Cap · · Score: 2, Informative

    ClearChannel has a program called Burn Live (the name was changed to "Instant Live"® after an unfortuante incident) that records most of the entire concert direct from the soundboards. Their deal with Worst^H^H^H^H^HBestBuy also has the CDs in those stores after the show.

    Some people don't think Burn Live is all that, either. Note that ClearChannel is trying to lock out competition of their live CD burninating model by using the patent system.

    --
    Yeah, right.
  28. Right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  29. See the USC by max+born · · Score: 4, Informative

    The judge is probably referring to Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution which grants Congress the power to grant exclusive rights for a limited time, i.e. there has to be some limit, even if it's a thousand years.

    Here's the text:

    Congress shall have the power ...[t]o promote the progress of science and useful arts, by securing for limited times to authors and inventors the exclusive right to their respective writings and discoveries;

    1. Re:See the USC by aiken_d · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That's a very interesting quote from the Constitution.

      It seems to me that one could argue that the Constitution prohibits copyright terms that are generally expected to be longer than the author's lifetime. That is, if you grant someone rights for a "limited time," that the person in question should expect those rights to expire at some point.

      Note that the Constitution is also clear that the rights are being granted to "authors and inventors," *not* their heirs, designees, estates, etc. If copyright were intended to be perpetual and handed down among generations and corporations, wouldn't the Constitution say that?

      Cheers
      -b

      --
      If I wanted a sig I would have filled in that stupid box.
    2. Re:See the USC by max+born · · Score: 1

      Exactly, it says "limited times to auhtors". How can a dead person have exclusive rights?

    3. Re:See the USC by Artifakt · · Score: 1

      Copyright was originally seen as the transfer of a natural right. If no law resticts you, it's natural law that says you can make a copy of someone else's work. Natural law doesn't let you copy someone's work one second after you die, let alone 70 years. The constitution originally transferred a right.

      How can an artist be awarded life+70 protection? The +70 can't be transferred, it must instead be a new right, manufactured, by congress. So who does that new right belong to first? Congress!
      If the old copyright law was repealed, who did the right revert to? The people, by natural law. If the new copyright law is repealed, to whom do the rigths revert? Does the +70 simply vanish, or does congress claim it still exists, and now reverts to the government? Artists should be very afraid of claims that the current set up is in their favor. An incentive for a sufficiently corrupt government to steal your work is never in your favor, long term.

      --
      Who is John Cabal?
    4. Re:See the USC by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      Perpuality would be bad. But isn't it currently limited to X amount of years after the artist's death?

    5. Re:See the USC by Lord+Flipper · · Score: 1
      If copyright were intended to be perpetual and handed down among generations and corporations, wouldn't the Constitution say that?

      Yes, it would

      IF...

      ...the purpose of the US Constitution was to delineate the rights of the citizens, BUT, that was never its stated or intended purpose...

      Its sole purpose was to limit the powers of the government and 'lawmakers', and, as if that weren't enough, to assume that all rights not explicitly mentioned therein, were implicitly protected from infringement, although you'd never that from the way it gets 'interpreted' by the lackeys in the Appellate Division, and the Supreme Court, today.

  30. Did you see the article's photograph? by trudyscousin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Distributing bootlegs on Zip disks, well, in the eyes of the RIAA, that's gotta be tantamount to murder.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who can't, write technology blogs.
    1. Re:Did you see the article's photograph? by djeaux · · Score: 1

      In the eyes of most live music fans, distributing bootlegs on Zip disks, well, that's gotta be tantamount to murder... ;-)

      --
      "Obviously, I'm not an IBM computer any more than I'm an ashtray" (Bob Dylan)
  31. You're an idiot. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    If you can't grasp subtleties like the fact that the constitutionality of a law is independent of the ethics of what the law prohibits, then you shouldn't be commenting on it. Dumbass.

    1. Re:You're an idiot. by turnstyle · · Score: 1
      Ok, you say I'm a dumbass, so let's see if you can shed any light...

      Is it OK with you when a store makes money by selling copies of an artist's work without their consent, and without compensated them?

      --
      Here's what I do: Bitty Browser & Andromeda
    2. Re:You're an idiot. by SillyNickName4me · · Score: 1

      O know you were not askign me but...

      > Is it OK with you when a store makes money by selling copies of an artist's work without their consent, and without compensated them?

      I'd say that that is not ok.

      However, in virtually all cases, at least the later is true. Only very succesfull artists will ever see such compensation in the regular music industry.

      Also, and that was what the initial post was about, the fact that someone breaks the law does not mean you can ignore the law and especially the constitution with regards to the person who broke the law.

  32. Position of Dead by uberdave · · Score: 1

    Just out of curiousity, what is the Grateful Dead's enlightened position and attitude to the recording and distribution of their live performances?

    1. Re:Position of Dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Taping is encouraged.

      Distribution of live recordings is allowed so long as you don't charge for them.

      In my opinion, the live recordings are better than their released albums - which isn't saying much, but ...meh.

    2. Re:Position of Dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      free exchange of live performance tapes among fans, but no look-alike packaging and commercial distribution in competition with their albums.

    3. Re:Position of Dead by K8Fan · · Score: 2, Informative
      Just out of curiousity, what is the Grateful Dead's enlightened position and attitude to the recording and distribution of their live performances?

      Taping was allowed, and even encouraged, but they prefered that you do so in the "Taper's Section" right near the sound board. The most experienced tapers would have thousands of dollars tied up in their rigs, using Neumann microphones, custom microphone pre-amps, etc. The last I read about them, they were using DAT machines, but I have no doubt they are now using some sort of 24-bit recording system, like a Layla card on a laptop.

      There are other bands that explicitly allow taping: Phish, Dave Matthews Band are a couple of the more famous. None of the bands are in favor of anyone selling audience tapes, and most people who tape are opposed to people selling audience tapes either. Someone who tapes a show will give copies to a fellow fan, usually trading disc for disc. If there is nothing to trade, they'll usually do a 2 blanks for one recorded disc swap.

      BitTorrent has really revolutionized the taping world. One taper can make a file available (usually in the lossless SHN or FLAC formats) and can get it to hundreds of people in the same time they could get it to one. Besides concerts they have taped themselves, people frequently post "liberated bootlegs" under the theory that, if the artist isn't getting the money, nobody should.

      --
      "How perfectly Goddamn delightful it all is, to be sure" Charles Crumb
  33. you're going to the wrong news sources by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The Beeb does cover this stuff more than some American news sources. But there are other British news sources that do the same things you speak of, and there are American news soures that do not.

    The problem is you are over generalizing American news sources. If you did the same to British sources, you'd be able to make the same comments.

  34. Yeah... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    I also used "their" instead of "they're" and bad sentence structure, (because they're illegit recordings, the very nature of these recordings is outlawed) but that's what you get when you post after just waking up with a hangover...

    And thank you for giving me a chance to correct myself!

  35. Actually it very well may stand by ShatteredDream · · Score: 1

    The Constitution mandates that specific time frames for copyrights be established, and the judge has said that this is ambiguous about how long the copyright for this particular type of recording lasts. Unless the appelate court clarifies it by issuing a ruling saying that its length is already covered under copyright law, it will most likely stand. The courts don't like ambiguous laws, especially laws that are ambiguous where the U.S. Constitution is quite clear.

    The only thing you have to worry about are those wackos on the Supreme Court. With McCain-Feingold they acted like they had never read the first amendment, but most courts aren't nearly that bad.

  36. No appeal by Duke+Machesne · · Score: 1

    The appeals process is intended to allow regress for those FOUND GUILTY. The law allows for no retrial of those found Not Guilty.

    Maybe they'll win a case against someone else, but this guy's off the hook (until the next time they arrest him, on a fresh set of charges.)

    1. Re:No appeal by ravenspear · · Score: 3, Funny

      Dear Mr Bainwol,

      Hello again sir, just a quick follow up. It seems our options may be more limited than I originally thought. Some guy on Slashdot just gave me a better grounding in law. I thought I was supposed to know everything already?

      Your Confused Lobbyist

  37. Question for you. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I've seen hundreds of musicians in a live setting over the last 30 years, and can recount perhaps two times when all the conditions were as you describe as the norm.

    They were in some small clubs in San Francisco in the mid 70's, I can't even remember who the bands were it was so bad, but that wasn't the norm by any means.

    I remember once at the On Broadway (above the Mabuhay Gardens)when Jeffery Lee Pierce of Gun Club was so fucking drunk that he could barely stand up!

    Now that sucked.

    So, what kind, and how many shows have you seen to arrive at your sweeping conclusion?

  38. Not alone by nurb432 · · Score: 1

    That was my first thought too...

    Never even considered the thought about concert tapes ...

    Story couldn't have been about illegal copies of released works, since everyone incorrectly calls that piracy now..

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    1. Re:Not alone by anthony_dipierro · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If everyone calls it that, then it's not incorrect. Words are defined by usage, after all.

    2. Re:Not alone by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      If everyone calls it that, then it's not incorrect. Words are defined by usage, after all.

      In every reasonable language, that is... French excluded.

  39. MOD PARENT UP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Insightfull

  40. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by markk · · Score: 1

    I actually agree that that copyright should end within lifetime of the author, however, there is a good argument otherwise. At bottom copyright puts a value on original work so that people are encouraged to do it. How much "value" should be given is the question that determines how long copyright should last. If you make it real long then the author can sell his copyright for more money - even if he or she doesn't live to see its expiration.

    Now whether copyrights should be allowed to be sold in the first place is another story. "Corporate" as opposed to personal ownership of copyrights is to me one of the reasons we are in this current mess now.

  41. Manson sucks, Myles doesn't by poptones · · Score: 1
    If you look at a band like garbage - a great recorded band that a lot of people collect (or used to) live, I would agree. Shirley usually sounded like shit live, but she was easy on the eyes so I guess people like to think of that when they listen.

    But LOTS of bands are awesome live, tired or not. Then there are those greats like SRV or Lightnin Hopkins or Myles Davis you'll never, ever get to see live unless it's a recording - so what do you do? These artists were great live and it would be a trajedy to lose access to those recordings - authorized or not.

  42. Famous Churchill quote on prepositions by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1, Interesting

    That is the sort of errant pedantry up with which I will not put.

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  43. two important differences by zogger · · Score: 1

    you get the long version of the drum solo, and you get to see the groupies up front of the stage bouncing up and down

    %^)

  44. artstists dead and gone by poptones · · Score: 1
    don't get to have "wishes." And copyright was never intended to serve as a perpeptual right to not be published anymore than they were intended as a right to perpeptual control over publication. Consider artists that have been dead for years - should they all end up like zappa or hendrix, "owned" in perpetuity by either money grubbing publication estates or estates that refuse to allow merest mention fo their work? Consider the case of Anais Nin, who wrote her entire life - from the time she was nine until she died well over fifty years later. Should we NEVER be allowed access to any of that work? What about people like Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson? Should their estates be allowed to lock away any rights to quote their words, in whole or in part, in perpetuity?

    Thi isn't just about what artists want. There are numerous precedents that could be set by a law granting perpeptual rights, and few (if any) outweigh the public's right to information in a free society.

  45. rights are transferable by poptones · · Score: 1
    You cannot have "rights" end with the death of an author, since the "author" might be killed in a plane crash next week - well before the people he licensed those rights to have the opportunity to recoup. I know that's a dirty word, but the fact is rights that cannot be traded have no value, and some rights are what gives artists value. You cannot make them die with the author, since those rights would then have substantially less value (imagine if his rights to the white Album died the day Lennon was shot - all that money from the inevitable "death windfall" made by the remaining beatles and the record companies and nothing at all to his widow and son? No Justice there.)

    The constitution clearly spells out the formla - that those rights are to be a limited time, and they be exclusive - meaning I can license my work to you and not your competitor, meaning I have value doubly because you can be shielded from RICO type laws while signing me to an "exclusive contract." Without this exlcusive right to license, artists and creators of all flavors - even programmers who work under contract - would have even less protection from corporate exploitation.

    1. Re:rights are transferable by wfberg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You cannot have "rights" end with the death of an author, since the "author" might be killed in a plane crash next week - well before the people he licensed those rights to have the opportunity to recoup. I know that's a dirty word, but the fact is rights that cannot be traded have no value, and some rights are what gives artists value.

      Monetary value is what I think you mean. Obviously, even things that cost nothing have value (as in; linux? love?).

      Rights end at the time of death all the time. While it's inconvenient, death puts a stop to deals all the time. What happens to your cell phone contract? The lease on you house? Still businesses enter into these contracts with mere mortals.

      You cannot make them die with the author, since those rights would then have substantially less value (imagine if his rights to the white Album died the day Lennon was shot - all that money from the inevitable "death windfall" made by the remaining beatles and the record companies and nothing at all to his widow and son? No Justice there.)

      The remaining beatles not being dead they would still have had a claim. The widow and son? Well, when your local neighborhood wageslave dies, the widow and son usually don't get wages for the work the dead man isn't doing, do they? Where's the justice in that?

      And besides, copyright is there to promote science and the arts, not Yoko and Damien's wellbeing. It's not like they weren't well off already, surely they'd saved up for a rainy day.

      Actually, those rights were already sold, so who benefits? Corporations (at least, the corporation that owns the copyright, not the corporations that want to reproduce the works el cheapo - the big guys vs the small guys), and not the public.

      The constitution clearly spells out the formla - that those rights are to be a limited time, and they be exclusive - meaning I can license my work to you and not your competitor

      The constitution doesn't preclude you from entering into non-exclusive licenses. That's why the GPL is constitutional, for example.

      Actually, the constitution allows congress to make such laws, but mandatory licensing is also A-OK.

      Without this exlcusive right to license, artists and creators of all flavors - even programmers who work under contract - would have even less protection from corporate exploitation.

      Programmers who work under contract typically produce works-for-hire and are afforded no copyright protection at all, not even moral rights (e.g. the right of attribution).

      --
      SCO employee? Check out the bounty
    2. Re:rights are transferable by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My gift to you. A post full of:

      </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i>
      </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i>
      </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i> </i>

      Please feel free to use one at any time in the future.

      Thank you.

    3. Re:rights are transferable by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      You cannot make them die with the author, since those rights would then have substantially less value (imagine if his rights to the white Album died the day Lennon was shot - all that money from the inevitable "death windfall" made by the remaining beatles and the record companies and nothing at all to his widow and son? No Justice there.)

      Except you seem to forget the purpose of the clause: "To promote the useful arts and sciences." While it would be a tragedy and one would certainly hope that (in your example) Lennon's widow and son were given some money by the remaining Beatles, you cannot argue that they have some inherent right to any money gained from the sale of the white album. They were not the creators of the art in question and their "right" to royalties from Lennon's hard work should have died no later than 28 years after the work was first created.

      The simple fact of the matter is that copyright has turned from a protective measure that ensured artists and inventors could make a living off their works (thereby encouraging others to create and invent) into a draconian set of rules, incredibly slanted towards corporate copyright holders, that no longer hold the intention of simply promoting art and science but instead give those copyright holders the ability to hold the general public hostage for as much money as possible. These laws are no longer compliant with the intended purpose of the original clause and have not been for quite some time.

      --
      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
  46. How CNN thinks by PetoskeyGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not mention in Technology
    Not mention in Law
    CNN/Money has the story

  47. Bootlegging concerts... by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...is like shoplifting in Disneyland. It would be stupid to actively prosecute it.

    Try stealing some minor toy at Disneyland. If you don't steal a 2m high Winnie the Pooh, they will let you get away with it. Just because the tagline "Disneyland, the kingdom of dreams where they jail poor shoplifting kids" just wouldn't fit.

    In the same perspective, would you go to a concert of that cool rebel band that will put you to jail for making some shitty recording ? Don't think so.

    1. Re:Bootlegging concerts... by maxpublic · · Score: 1

      I'd find it quite amusing to see Mickey and Donald beat your sorry ass to a pulp after they ran you down for shoplifting. What a show that would be!

      Max

      --
      My god carries a hammer. Your god died nailed to a tree. Any questions?
    2. Re:Bootlegging concerts... by ChrisMaple · · Score: 1
      Try stealing some minor toy at Disneyland. If you don't steal a 2m high Winnie the Pooh, they will let you get away with it.

      Sorry, tain't so. I lived in California for a while, and read several stories about Disneyland acting very nasty when some one-year-old grabbed something when mommy wasn't looking, and mommy insisted on putting it back instead of paying for it.

      --
      Contribute to civilization: ari.aynrand.org/donate
  48. Say goodbye to Section 1101 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    This is an interesting decision. We had a protracted discussion about this section in my copyright class and figured a challenge would be soon to come. I can't wait to see this come up to the appellate level to be affirmed.

    18 USC 1101(a) essentially gives copyright protection to unfixed musical performances creating a right to fix an otherwise evanescent work. The issue becomes, how does this language square with the constitutional requirement of Writings in the copyright clause?

    Furthermore, 1101 places no limit on how far back in time the unauthorized recording can be made (it is essentially applied retroactively, forever), and likewise no limit on the future enforcement of the rights. How does this square with the constitutional command that protection is for Limited Times?"

    Additionally, a violator under this section is subject to the same remedies as a traditional infringer of copyright. This right to fix an otherwise contemporaneous work is treated as similar to copyright in a fixed work, yet somehow different from it.

    At least one previous federal case has suggested that Congress has the power to regulate unfixed works under the Commerce Clause. But can Congress avoid the restrictions in the copyright clause simply by saying that it is basing its authority in Commerce Clause?

    The good thing is that 1101(d) does not preempt state law on the matter. States are always free to grant MORE protection than the copyright clause grants, but they are prevented by preemption from offering less. So, for instance, the state in which the defendent resides could constitutionally grant performers state copyright in their unfixed, contemporaneous musical performances. They could also grant "Authors" protection for 200 years. What they could not do, however, is only grant fixed works 15 years protection, for example.

    Hope this helps some people work through this oddity in copyright law.

  49. National Geographic Society anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Here is a link to the law:

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/2319A.html

    Notice a few things...

    (a) Offense. -

    Whoever, without the consent of the performer or performers involved, knowingly and for purposes of commercial advantage or private financial gain -

    from this can we assume that you probably need written permission to protect yourself in the future? I mean if not, what is to prevent them from giving you permission and then afterwards claiming that they did not and getting you thrown in jail?

    (1) records the performance - yes, ok, that's a bootleg

    (2) transmits the performance - can you think of ways this might apply to TV news organizations?

    (c) even though this is a US law, it applies even if the recording was made outside of the US.

    also see:

    http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/1101.html

    now, I don't see it but I have a book which claims this to be retroactive and protects even pre-1994 recordings. (perhaps I missed something? can someone enlighten us on this.)

    OK, so I am sure if we search the National Geographic Archives we can find recordings of musical performances from varoius cultures around the world. I would doubt that they have written permission to make said recordings.

    If not, these recordings would be bootlegs nad thus illegal to traffic in. Oops!

    Bad bad national Geographic Society!

    And from the first link:

    (b) Forfeiture and Destruction. -

    When a person is convicted of a violation of subsection (a), the court shall order the forfeiture and destruction of any copies or phonorecords created in violation thereof, as well as any plates, molds, matrices, masters, tapes, and film negatives by means of which such copies or phonorecords may be made. The court may also, in its discretion, order the forfeiture and destruction of any other equipment by means of which such copies or phonorecords may be reproduced, taking into account the nature, scope, and proportionality of the use of the equipment in the offense.

    If convicted we have to destroy all of that priceless historical recordings and, if the court chooses, all of the equiptment that the society can use to make such recordings.

    Yeow!

    A Nony Mouse

    1. Re:National Geographic Society anyone? by caldfyr · · Score: 1

      That would be interesting in court. I would imagine that the judge would assume, or would hear testimony claiming verbal permission by the tribes being recorded. I would assume, that since they most likely want to get a high quality recording, that they would have the equipment out in the open. I would hope they explained to the tribe what the equipment was for. I would like to think that the people that can appreciate the tribal music can respect the tribe.

      As to your first point, I imagine that if a band says "feel free to record", that the illegal recorders have already hit the button and have it on tape. Plus, there's a few thousand witnesses. And how many artists would risk alienating their fanbase like that?

  50. Just one thing though... by mrscorpio · · Score: 1

    Taping concerts is legal. Shoplifting isn't...

  51. artstists dead and gone are irrelevant by caldfyr · · Score: 1

    None of that is relevant to the topic. Artists dead and gone aren't giving concerts today.

    That copyright was never intended to be perpetual is irrelevant because the recordings are illegal creations and should be destroyed. Copyrighted material is created by an author. Any cd burner and the person controlling the burner are simply the method an author uses to publish their work. If a method not authorized by the author is used, then the person, the record store owner, are in the wrong.

    While sad, the Zappa and Hendrix issue is irrelevant.

    Did Anais will her writings to anyone? If not, then the local judiciary has control. As unfair as it may seem, if whoever owns the works doesn't want them published, then it sucks to be us, but I'll get over it.

    The jefferson and franklin bit are irrelevant too,unless someone unlawfully copied their words during a paid speaking engagement, but since I doubt laws from back then covered that...

    The public does not have a right to the music. If we did, then Clapton wouldn't be able to charge for his concerts, because to charge a ticket fee for more than the cost of the venue maintenance would be violating your right to listen. If a band wants you to record their concert the singer would mention it to you when they came onstage, or there would be signs proclaiming "feel free to record this concert!!", or they would be giving or selling live cd's at the venue. If it is the requesite amount of years after the artist's death, then the issue is null.

    "And copyright was never intended to serve as a perpeptual right to not be published anymore than they were intended as a right to perpeptual control over publication"

    If I make a speech in public, I have little control over whether someone quotes me, etc. If I am being paid to speak or playing in a band, putting on a broadway production, etc, the situation is different. With your mindset, people should be afraid to open their mouth for fear of having their ideas and art stolen from them.

    1. Re:artstists dead and gone are irrelevant by poptones · · Score: 1
      None of that is relevant to the topic. Artists dead and gone aren't giving concerts today.

      Wow, you really are clueless, aren't you?

      The point is entirely relevant. Look up "precedent" at harvard law or something. While you're at it look up "overly broad" - you'll find lots of those entries if you just look up "Larry Flynt."

  52. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 1
    I actually agree that that copyright should end within lifetime of the author, however, there is a good argument otherwise.

    This idea has come up before, and folks point out the possibility of someone recording a hit song and getting killed the next day. Surely his heirs deserve some return for that work.

    Now whether copyrights should be allowed to be sold in the first place is another story.

    The ability to sell copyrights is, in some cases, what gives them value to the creator. It might not be an issue if all artists were also savvy business and/or marketing people, but they're not. So I say let'em cash out if they want, if there's a buyer. Put the material in the hands of someone who can commercially exploit it better. That works to everyone's advantage.

  53. Come back! by StarKruzr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hope you have the pid of this post saved somewhere, because I'd like to ask you something since you're a pro-RIAA recording artist and all.

    Suppose I like your music and want to support you without supporting the RIAA and your record label.

    How do I go about doing this? Take it for granted that I've already downloaded your music. If I went ahead and bought $25 or so in merch, would that settle your need to get compensated for your work?

    --

    +++ATH0
  54. Nope, they rolled over by Aexia · · Score: 1

    when they decided to kill a story about falsified evidence used in the lead-up to the Iraq war in exchange for laxer regulations on station ownership.

    1. Re:Nope, they rolled over by ari_j · · Score: 1

      You're demonstrating a lot of evidence to support your claim, here. I sadly don't have time to sift through all zero sources.

  55. Just because this got struck down... by SkippyTPE · · Score: 1

    ...won't necissarily keep this guy out of trouble. He's still distributing copies of a copyrighted work (the underlying composition has a copyright separate from the recorded performance). While the bootlegging law seems pretty stupid, it would stand to reason that they'll just come back after him for the usual statutory damages since I seriously doubt he's passed the life +70 time limit.

  56. Copyrights are implied by default... by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    Unless you're granted permission by the artist doing the performing the work is legally protected by default.

  57. Wow that's a relief! by the_skywise · · Score: 1

    I'll just take my video camera into the theaters all the time now and record everything for my own personal use and re-watching later. Because I'm WRONG! Thanks Mr. AC!

    *IF* the artist explicitly grants permission (aka Phish) to record the work then there's no problem. But works and performances are copy protected by default.

    1. Re:Wow that's a relief! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "But works and performances are copy protected by default."

      Wrong. Read about copyrights here:

      http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

  58. insightful? gibberish by poptones · · Score: 1
    How the fuck did that nonsense get modded "insightful?" Not only is it a bitch to read, it's also full of utter cluelessness. When I die I no longer can burden the cellphone company - dead men don't make phone calls, ergo no need for the service (but if I leave an outstanding bill, don't think for a minute the phone company won't bind my estate for the payoff). And dead factory workers generally cannot perform proper welds and most certainly cannot be held libel for any work they may be able to perform post mortem, so again this "point" of yours is entirely nonexistent.

    And copyright terms, while arguably well overextended, are still limited - so those paragraphs you wasted on that pomposity are likewise utterly moot.

    So far as Lennon.. I suggest you do some research. So far as mechanical rights, Apple still controls most of the beatles recorded catalog, and... well, go ask Steve Jobs who runs that show and if the remaining beatles have any stake those recordings and Apple Corps... even if the masters are still owned by one of those big, evil, corporations.

  59. Congress will fix this :( by davidwr · · Score: 1

    Within a year, new federal law will require that all bootleg live-performance recordings created after the law goes into effect be turned over to the Library of Congress within 30 days for archival purposes, and that you are not allowed to copy or even play back the recording you made. If you violate this law, you'll be jailed for 90 years. Why 90 years? I think that's obvious :( .

    This will "protect" the financial interests while allowing everyone who is alive 90 years from now access to the recordings. After 90 years, the Library of Congress will make the newly-public-domain recordings available for copying.

    Of course, at the rate the laws are changing, 90 years from now, copyrights will last 180 years.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  60. Finally a judge "gets it"! by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1
    The judge said the current copyright code on live performances is unconstitutional, because copyrights last forever

    W00t!

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  61. thank them by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    They add value to the recordings: finding, marketing and shipping them. If they didn't do that, how would you get them? If they didn't get paid, why would they do the service? The ruling is a determination of the copyright restriction on old recordings expiring, which is specified in the Constitution. Without the restriction, that temporary government monopoly, the recordings of long-past events are available for anyone for any purpose. The entire notion of "authorized" copies is only valid within that copyright, which does not exist here. A good thing, too, because these performances have never been released by the record companies, and we'd never get to listen to them.

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  62. ironic by poptones · · Score: 1
    you should say "they have no right" (meaning yoko and son) in the same breath as the white album.

    You'll never win this battle with me as I know full well what copyright is all about and, if you are a member and can hit the archives, you'll see we may well agree. But on this issue, especially given your ill researched example, you're just plain wrong.

    Have you even heard the white album? Do you know anything at all about the beatles? If you did, you'd certainly know yoko was there - and her contribution, for better or worse, is "on record."

    What's most hilarious is you are argung with me after I was the one who pointed out why this law was ruled down. Are you paying attention at all? Does the collective IQ drop on the weekends around here or something?

    1. Re:ironic by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      Indeed.

      What's most hilarious is you are argung with me after I was the one who pointed out why this law was ruled down. Are you paying attention at all? Does the collective IQ drop on the weekends around here or something?

      Yes, it does in fact drop on the weekends. Also, you'll note that assholes such as yourself come out and start slinging ad hominems. I assume, however, that the frequency of your posts decreases on weekdays.

      FWIW - Yes, I'm well versed on the white album as well as all the Beatle's other works. But this isn't a classic rock trivia show and Yoko's name ain't on the copyright, so let's try to keep it on topic, mmmmmmmmmmmmkay?

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      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
    2. Re:ironic by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      Oh, one other thing.

      I went back and read some of your older comments and I must say, going by the number of times you personally attacked the person you were replying to on the internet...you really are a douchebag.

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      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
  63. hey now everybody hey now everybody hey now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They Might Be Giants charge a reasonable $9.99 to download a high-quality recording of their live shows.

  64. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    This idea has come up before, and folks point out the possibility of someone recording a hit song and getting killed the next day. Surely his heirs deserve some return for that work.

    And why is that? Did they contribute to it?

  65. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 1
    This idea has come up before, and folks point out the possibility of someone recording a hit song and getting killed the next day. Surely his heirs deserve some return for that work.

    And why is that? Did they contribute to it?

    Maybe they did. In any case, if we're talking about immediate family, they almost certainly helped make the work possible even if they didn't contribute directly. But that's beside the point.

    Here's the real argument: Think of it as being pretty much the same thing as the last paycheck of an hourly-wage worker who dies suddenly. That guy's family deserves the money for his work, don't they? So this would be the equivalent for the writer, musician, or whatever. Maybe the term's not as long as it would be if the artist had lived, but the heirs still get something.

  66. Dear Slashdot... by evilviper · · Score: 1

    I thought this was a very interesting story. So much so that I would like to read it again. Could you please re-post it in, say, 6 hours? Thanks!

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    Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
  67. I stand corrected. by the_skywise · · Score: 1
    But it's a weird... gap... in the law and I wasn't sure why a public performance would be this protected until I ran across this:

    http://law.indiana.edu/fclj/pubs/v47/no3/schwartz. html#II

    (just before section c)

    "To further clarify the Court's ruling, Justice Blackmun compared the government's tactics against Dowling to a case the Court had previously considered. That case involved a magazine, the Nation, which had published unauthorized excerpts from former President Gerald Ford's then soon-to-be-published memoirs.(note 129) Under the government's theory of the Dowling case, the Nation would have been guilty of interstate trans-portation of stolen goods for mailing magazine subscriptions when, of course, the magazines themselves were not stolen.(note 130)"

    It appears that it's a generalized protection for political speech.

  68. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If they did contribute to it, then they own (or should own, if they were treated fairly) part of the copyright. In that case this discussion is irrelevant.

    If they did not contribute to it, I don't see how it's like the "last paycheck" at all. And if the guy's a famous star it's not like his family is struggling to put food on the table. It is nothing but a windfall for uncreative, greedy people who did nothing to deserve it, but who'll probably go around suing anyone who has the audacity to actually create, say, a derivative work.

    You are completely missing the point of copyright, as stated in the Constitution, which is to encourage an artist's creativity. When the artist is dead, he cannot create anymore, so the artificial monopoly granted to him by the government is pointless. Less government-controlled monopoly in our lives, I say.

    Of course you are buying into the mainstream argument, and I doubt you and I will ever see eye to eye.

  69. rotfl by poptones · · Score: 1
    going by the number of times you personally attacked the person you were replying to on the internet...you really are a douchebag.

    Wow, thanks for redefining irony.

    1. Re:rotfl by fluxrad · · Score: 1

      Wow, thanks for redefining irony

      You started the mud-slinging, buttercup. That doesn't mean I won't fire back. Now go get a lower UID, take a lesson in on-line eqituette, and shut the fuck up. Me? I've got karma to burn.

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      "It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once." -David Hume
  70. 99-year limit by Yartrebo · · Score: 1

    There is precedent that anything over 99 years is effectively forever. If you want to 'lease' property to someone forever for $1 a year(effectively giving the property without paying capital gains taxes), it is considered to be forever (and it becomes taxable) if the term is over 99 years.

    Hong Kong was leased to the British for 99 years using some similar reasoning.

    With copyright at 95 years (or 70 + life for those few works not made for hire), it slips in right under that number.

    Of course, with the current Supreme Court, I'd be suprised if they overturned any law favoring big media, no matter how unconstitutional.

  71. Fascism is bad. by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    Invoking Godwin's Law to get around denouncing fascism. Not new, but low.

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  72. Wrong copyright by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 1

    The judge in this case found that the copyright applied was perpetual, therefore not valid. But the unlawful copy was the original, made in the performace venue. On private property, the original performance cannot be copied except by express permission of the performer. The first copier is not within their rights, and subsequent copies are also unlawful, just as an illegal copy of a copyrighted studio album that doesn't include the copyright doesn't "break the chain" - subsequent copies are also unlawful.

    It's odd that the judge in this case didn't focus on that simple opinion. The case seems to have been constructed as an attempt to extend copyrights in perpetuity, which failed. The actual actions in question are still legally uncertain.

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  73. Re:See the USC - limited Terms by Secret+Agent+X23 · · Score: 1
    If they did not contribute to it, I don't see how it's like the "last paycheck" at all.

    He did work he would have been paid for.

    And if the guy's a famous star it's not like his family is struggling to put food on the table.

    1. If he's a famous star. Most artists aren't.
    2. A lot of famous stars aren't as well-off financially as folks think they are.
    3. Whether they're struggling or not is beside the point.

    It is nothing but a windfall for uncreative, greedy people who did nothing to deserve it, but who'll probably go around suing anyone who has the audacity to actually create, say, a derivative work.

    If the artist thinks his heirs are greedy and don't deserve it, let him write them out of his will. Leave the copyright to the Susan G. Komen Foundation, or the Humane Society, or something. Or let him declare all his work public domain upon his death.

    You are completely missing the point of copyright, as stated in the Constitution, which is to encourage an artist's creativity.

    No, I'm not. I've argued here on /. before in favor of a limited, say 15 year copyright term with no renewal, for the very reason the Consitution states. I understand that the reason for a limited term is to give the artist an incentive to create subsequent works. I think it's a good idea, too.

    But this view of copyright means the artist is working for the public's benefit, so there's the matter of the "last paycheck." The artist's family benefits from the income if he lives, so why not let the term of protection run its course if he dies? Or, heck, even cut it off shorter if you want. And if there's no immediate family, then by all means let the work go into public domain.

    Do you know how Anthony Burgess started as a novelist? He was diagnosed with a brain tumor and told he had about a year to live. He wrote, if memory serves, his first five novels in that year to try to provide some money for his (he thought) soon-to-be widow. The tumor turned out to be a false alarm, but the idea that his heir would profit from his work was the incentive that started his career as a novelist.

    My way gives the literary world Anthony Burgess.

  74. ooh wow by poptones · · Score: 1
    cuz yer so leet and all. wow, look at that teeny weeny uid!

    Man, it just gets better with every post from you. Did yer momma have any kids that grew up?