Slashdot Mirror
XAML Development Today, But Not From Microsoft
Paul Colton writes "My company, Xamlon, has just released its flagship product, also called Xamlon. It allows for XAML development on all supported Windows platform, from Win98 through Longhorn. We're also investigating Mono and Java as possible development targets. CNET recently wrote a story of our launch."
Camel? Zaml? Ex-Aye-Em-El?
My company, Xamlon, has just released its flagship product, also called Xamlon.
.NET 1.1 compatible and runs on any .NET 1.1 platform (Windows 98 - Longhorn)", which is only specific if the reader knows which operating systems are included in the subset Windows 98 - Longhorn, and many do not. If you meant that you could support any operating system released since Windows 98, why didn't you just say that? It leads the reader to think that maybe there is an OS that is not supported somewhere in that subset, but you are not reporting it because of some business reasons.
Thank you for your nice advertisement. No seriously. Why post a story to Slashdot about your own product or service? That is what the millions of Slashdotters around the net are for. It's hard enough for one of us to get a story posted... now we have to compete with the source?
It allows for XAML development on all supported Windows platform, from Win98 through Longhorn.
That's an example of why you should allow journalists to do their job and report news. You forgot to pluralize platform. Your sentence should read, It allows for XAML development on supported Windows platforms.
Grammatically, you can't possibly list supported operating systems in the article by date without explaining yourself, so you should have linked to a page that would show the supported operating system. But even that page is scarce with info about supported operating systems and says: "The engine is
Yes, I think your product seems quite wonderful. But you're going about promotion the wrong way. I happen to like the fact that you're competing with Microsoft based off their own specs!
FTA: Xamlon built the program from the published technical specifications of Microsoft's own user interface development software, which Microsoft itself doesn't plan to release until 2006.
Doesn't that open your company up for lawsuits? (IANAL)
The dangers of knowledge trigger emotional distress in human beings.
Say goodby to babyshit brown!
Of course, I could also be a cynic, considering Colton sold Live Software, he may be positioning his new venture for a buyout by Microsoft.
Ob Simpsons: OK, boys, buy him out! .. I didn't get rich by writing a lot of checks.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
One again, how much does one of the slashvertizements cost? I have some clients that would love to buy one but I am unable to get a price from you.
Please let me know so we can do business together!
My company, Xamlon, has just figured out a way to advertise its flagship product on Slashdot.
Yet Another Web Site
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Having a flagship product named the same as the company name short-circuits this process for the clue-deficient. How many of has have heard their less-technically-literate people complain that their "Microsoft" crashed? (And of course, who among us would correct such an error, since it has such a nice ring to it...)
No Laughing Allowed!
Admins on the site don't want you to read it.
Yeah any PR guy can put something out on the PR wires, which means it'll show up in CNN.
Not News. I worked for a company called, drumroll, Portivity. I left just before it went bankrupt.
Harrison's Postulate - "For every action there is an equal and opposite criticism"
Why on earth would anyone use XAML over XUL which runs everywhere on every platform?
Got Code?
"XAML was designed intentionally to tie Microsoft's browser closer to Windows."
Isn't this what the whole DoJ thing was about? Is it possible to tie IE and Winddows closer together?
- Kevin
The less confident you are, the more serious you have to act.
Honestly, people, does this even surprise you anymore?
or is there a category called "Ad"?
Build something usefull like a xul plugin for internet exploder.
Got Code?
Enough for the advertisement already. Create a section for that, unchecked by default.
CNET recently wrote a story of our launch
/.'ers) are much less likely to even *look* at the web site/article now... /. effect or not.
:(
Really now... have we sunk *that* low? We're cross-referencing slashvertisements with ad-articles from other news sites with commercial interests of their own?
No matter how good XAMLon is, I (and likely other
MMD (mod me down), but really, is this news? Or even news-worthy... If I tried segueing another post into such a schmalzy plug for my product the readership would MMD into next year.
So why does the inspired editorial staff think this is worthy of it's own post?
Editorial staff, if folk want to plug their crap on /. let em do it through the existing banner ads. Make 'em pay for the privelege.
Or maybe he did pay for the privelege...
"Talk minus action equals nothing" - Joey Shithead, D.O.A.
"Talk minus action equals
-1 "Infomercial". Also -1 "Pro M$" and -1 "it.slashdot.babycrapbrown.org"
Actually, you probably do. ;)
Then again, i'm fairly young and never was very good at language.
Thanks for the spelling tip though
Thank you for not only supplying proof that "per say" does not exist in the wild, but also concrete evidence that "pedantic asshole" exists and thrives in its natural environment, Slashdot.
22.230.165.157 it.slashdot.org
to your etc/hosts file!
Avalon + XAML = Xamlon
Trademark infringement case in 3.. 2..
At least Lindows was only borrowing -dows from Microsoft. I'd hate to see what happens when you borrow both parts.
Uninnovate - Only the finest in engineering.
It is Nick Petreley's law of the computer press, but it also applies to mainstream IT acceptance. Things just don't catch on in the corporate world until Microsoft comes up with a shoddy implementation of the exact same technology.
We've had X11 around for years now, but you didn't really see network-transparent GUIs and thin-client computing with a GUI catch on until Microsoft Terminal Server came out.
N4st0r, trixx0r h0bb1tz0rz! Th3y st0l3 0ur pr3c10uzz!
Oh wait, we've got several of those already.
.... :-)
Meanwhile us old timers just repeat the mantra "The Internet is not the web" over and over
"The question of whether machines can think is no more interesting than [] whether submarines can swim" - Dijkstra
Since they're promising it's compatible with Longhorn (due out in 2137AD), they have clearly developed time travel. I would have thought that the better lead, even on slashdot!
That said, I don't think that XAML itself is a good idea. Apart from XAML vs XUL/SVG/etc. issues, .NET itself is fundamentally broken. I'm not sure
that it will be fixed and serious design issues will not make its way to Longhorn.
How about a "Products" section where stories about fancy new program X can be posted and the people who are interested in them can read the slashvertisments to their heart's delight. Stories like this which are really just an advertisment for something there doesn't appear to be a lot of interest in don't belong on the front page.
I stole this Sig
Entire story is (apparently) paid advocacy of product in support of Microsoft technology.
Banner ad is for Newsforge's "The Futility of Arguing with Paid Advocates" article.
Quoting:
Robin "Roblimo" Miller writes: I had exactly one question for Brown: "How much would it cost to have you stop putting our Microsoft party line and start advocating Linux instead?"
So I put that same question to the editors! How much did it cost to have you start putting out the Microsoft party line?
/me ducks incoming...
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I can't compare them on technical merits (I know ~0 about XAML) but XUL has the major advantage that it works now...
There's mischief and malarkies but no queers or yids or darkies within this bastard's carnival, this vicious cabaret.
i prefer the look of linux.slashdot.org, but its pretty straightforward to change
For those of you wondering, here's a short explanation from www.xaml.net:
Transaction Authority Markup Language (XAML) is a vendor-neutral standard that enables the coordination and processing of online transactions in the rapidly emerging world of XML web services - the revolutionary new model of Internet-based computing that is now being adopted by all major systems and software vendors. XAML is intended to be a completely open standard for web-based business transactions.
The standard defines a set of XML message formats and interaction models that web services can use in order to provide business-level transactions that span multiple parties across the Internet.
Sigs are for the weak.
"Microsoft Buys Xamlon"
what's wrong with using GTK#, it works well with mono and it's free.
I thought MICHAEL was the Slashdot whore...
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
My company tried getting into XML but found that HTML solves most of our issues, while XML was way too complicated for our web pages.
I mean, we couldn't even find a tag for BOLD. Any tool that will make XML easier would sure be welcome by the developers at our firm.
$30 Off All Plans: Use code TRIPLESAWBUCK
I'll probably get modded as flaming, but...
If it's a tool that will help developers working in XML it shuold be promoted.
If you don't wnat to read it, then don't.
Nobody's forcing you.
$30 Off All Plans: Use code TRIPLESAWBUCK
Well, XAML and XUL are similar technologies with similar goals. As far as that goes, Mozilla seems to have been there first, and is open source. They are therefore the preferred party. Microsoft has marketing dollars, so they are probably going to attract most developers.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
This is a nit-pick but we should not be sloppily using the term Clone, which the biotech folks have given a precise meaning. If you have built a product to an open and published spec from scratch rather than by borrowing or reusing library or other component software, I'd say you have co-evolved software. Your implementation could wind up being very different, under the hood, from whatever MS eventualy delivers in fulfillment of its spec. A clone is a copy at the implementation level in biology, not at the feature level. We will drive the polymath /. crowd mad much more slowly if all of software's borrowings [virus, worm, infection etc] from biology map consistently onto their wetware metaphores.
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
"Do I know more than you about your own language???
Its "per se" and it's latin."
Unless the author of the original post is around 2000 years old and dead I would suspect that Latin isn't their language.
To be a proper pedant you should probably spell its without the apostrophe and capitalise Latin as a proper noun.
English seems to have many spellings over the years, "per say" got the meaning across well enough for me.
Great work furthering Microsoft guys! I'm sure your mothers must be very proud that you are helping giant corperations across the street like this, where they can then push you in front of a truck.
If you want to do the world a favor, try to spread Mozilla's XUL around. Develop a plugin that lets you run XUL apps in IE. Work on a dev environemnt for XUL.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
miniature can't don't nice awful brave sophisticated
girl neck affection deer starve
All words which once meant one thing, now mean another.
English is a dynamic language.
Go fuck yourself.
Despite all the talk of competition with MS, this sounds like an excellent way to be acquired by them. XAML has been implemented to the letter according to the specification _two_ years ahead of schedule. Sounds like MS's modus operandi as well, acquiring the good stuff and marketing it as their own.
---- I like compilers
Hey guys,
;)
I'm a pretty geeky dude, but I guess I really can't know everything all the time. What is XAML and XUL, and how do they compete with each other?
This is an easy +5 informative to someone...
~D
This sig has been enciphered with a one-time pad. It could say almost anything.
It's also not obvious from the article if XAML is cross browser capable. Does it spit out web standards based HTML/XHTML or whatever or does it use an IE only browser plugin? They say it only supports IE on windows platforms but they're looking at Mono and Linux. Does this mean the development tool only runs on windows or that XAML will only ever run on IE?
*Poof* It's gone. It's just temporary, but it always makes me feel better at the end of the day.
Introducing Microsoft Vacuum 1.0 The first Microsoft product that doesn't suck.
Actually, your guess about the apostrophe was wrong -- both instances of "it's" in the original sentance are contractions of the words "it is", and therefore should indeed have an apostrophe present.
To be a proper pedant, you should really ensure that you are actually right when you make corrections -- don't just hide your uncertainy behind the word "probably" when trying to make such authoritative statements.
Agreed. If it's a good idea for slashdot it ought
.net takes a great leap backwards (mao style) and forces me to think in terms of code when it ought to be a form resource :-. A dialog
to be in "new products" or something like that.
But, it *is* an area of interest. Despite (most of
our) fantasies about Linux, and other more civilized OSS things, most of us in our day jobs have to live (at least to eat) in the pig trough that is amess windows. Believe me. I am not an employee.
So, for now, quit grumbling. I for one am puzzled
as to why
manager (hey: this is 20 years after the mac),
and delegates aka callbacks to modify it...
(ok, scream at me code puritans).
In the meantime, I'll go draw some more pretty dragon curves with Python/Tk... (and frag someone)
Sometimes teaching teaches the least teachable person...
To be a proper pedant Its should have the apostraphe, as it's two words, "it is". I give you a B+ for pedantry.
Hey, this guy freely admits that he works for that company. He may be promoting himself, but he isn't a slimeball.
I'm sure that many other companies submit articles about their products, but incognito.
The Internet is full. Go Away!!!
Let me know when it supports more than Winblows.
Would love to use something like this for my company but I need cross-platform capability.
Give me a version that outputs W3C spec compliant UI code and runs on either Linux, OSX, or Solaris and I will make the investment.
And your website sign-up form is broken, by the way. At least it doesnt work in Mozilla on Linux. Would like to sign-up, but can't.
Why post a story to Slashdot about your own product or service? That is what the millions of Slashdotters around the net are for. It's hard enough for one of us to get a story posted... now we have to compete with the source?
Amen brotha! Give me distorted third and fourth hand information any day. Slashdot is going to hell in a handbasket...now they're posting articles from the sources. What's next, original news content? Man I can barely tolerate original book and movie reviews. Perish the thought...
Either you were trying to be funny (I find the statement above in particular amusing), or you aren't in the journalism business. Generally, readers prefer information from "the source". I hate to break it to you, but a large part of "journalism" is driven by press releases. Over half of the content of typical magazines and newspapers is of the nature of this article.
I can also say you're not a struggling self-employed tech professional if you think Xamlon is going about it's promotion the wrong way. This guy managed to get column inches on two huge websites for next to nothing. I'd say they've made a promotional coup!
Yes, it is a shameless plug. However it seems to me that in marketing you have to check your pride at the door and plug away. At least this poster isn't like some others and included more than just links to his own site. Beyond that, regardless of the source of the information, it is a very intriguing development. A brash upstart was able to implement behemoth Microsoft's specs before Microsoft itself does? That sure takes the wind out of Longhorn's sales if you ask me. The possibility/likelyhood of it running on Linux/MONO floors me...that would be awesome! To think that it could technically be possible to make Longhorn-compatible apps that run on Linux before Longhorn is even released...amazing.
You DO bring up a very important question though:
Doesn't that open your company up for lawsuits?
What do the license agreements attached to Microsoft's specs say about this? I remember rumblings about not being able to implement them without Microsoft's blessing, or the possibility that MS has/plans to incumber the license to such specs with restrictions forbidding their use in GPL/LGPL implementations. OTOH, Mono is a GPL/LGPL implementation of a MS spec and they have not faced legal challenges. This could be because the CLR and C# have been submitted to standards organisations. If MS is trying to maintain good will in the community and wants to make XAML an official standard then they may not be able to prevent others from implementing their specs. Does anyone out hter know the real legal situation here?
So many people are complaining about this being a slashvertisement. When there was a story about Yellow Dog 4 coming out no one complained. Or the distro with the swahili name. If announcing new software or new versions is so horrible why isn't everybody up in arms about the freshmeat section on the front page?
If you really feel that FOSS is the better answer and that FOSS projects can compete solely on their merits then equal exposure is not only fair, it is critical to proving that. If someone posts about a proprietary project, rather than whine about it, point out which FOSS solution does the job better. If one doesn't exist, write it. Or if you can't do those things and you think that the proprietary software in question sucks, post a review of it. Do something constructive.
This is really some brilliant work. Paul saw an opportunity to take what will become a defacto standard when Longhorn is shipped (or shortly thereafter) and beat Microsoft to the punch. This is a great way for big companies to play with big giants like MS, and take advantage of their slow development times for huge projects.
I've wondered what the deal was with "the Piquepaille content filter" /. occasionally applies to article postings.
Roland's penchant for lifting text is legendary. It appears he has diversified and now rips-off graphics and layout from other popular sites as well.
I, for one, welcome our shameless plugging overlords..at least when they have something interesting to say like Xamlon.
XUL is a great idea, but it will never catch on unless a GUI designer is created. Hand coding UI xml sucks, hand coding UI rdf+xml is approximately as anal retentive as pointalism. XAML is noticably less verbose than XUL and I can almost guarantee that there will be a nice GUI designer for it.
No, XAML is not better than XUL, XUL is badass tech, but the outlook for its adoption is bleak at the moment. A nice GUI designer and pyXPCOM could fix that though.
Soylent Green is so much better.
And also my sister's hamster just had babies, which are free to good homes. Oh wait, this is Slashdot? For some reason I thought it was the Greensheet.
"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face, it's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - George W. Bush Nov. 2005
What, you mean like this?
The software giant has created the eXtensible Application Markup Language (XAML), which allows developers to create a Web page's layout using tags, rather than programming code.
I thought this was called HTML...Slashdot is a good way to attract readers... Why would it be OK to promote open-source software releases and not interesting non-open-source ones?
:-)
Well, now that I think about it, let me take the opportunity to talk about XL, the future of programming. XAML is so passe, you know. This Xamlon act is the proof that it's no longer interesting: there is an implementation that works.
No such problem with XL. It's a real, true to geek do-it-yourself futureware. Complete with almost-but-not-quite-working source code. So if you are unhappy about these folks talking about real stuff available today, why don't you stop ranting and contribute so that we can get back to talking about stuff that doesn't exist yet
-- Did you try Tao3D? http://tao3d.sourceforge.net
With all the generously moderated posts about slashdot advertising, the herd has forgotten about this OPEN SOURCE PROJECT that does the same thing as Xamlon!
Amazing magic tricks
GOOD FUCKING GOD! You ass kissing Slashwhore!
How lame.
My company, TGE Software, has just released its flagship product, also called "Behind The Desk", but you don't see me trying to advertise it on Slashdot...
Oh, wait....
*** *** You're just jealous 'cause the voices talk to me... ***
It also competes with the next generation of W3C tech, like xforms.
makes me wonder where slashdot is going.. Just a few hours ago there was some autohornblowing from Wired and now somebody from Xamlon doing the same...
Is it cross-platform?
I'm a farmer in silicon valley. My labtop is my hoe.
Looking at the xulmaker web page, I don't have high hopes for it:
Microsoft is advertising XAMLON as being a key feature of Longhorn. With XAML available for Windows versions as early as 98, the upgrade cycle might be breaking. The outcome should be interesting.
XAML is still vaporware, MS could change the XAML specs lots of times till 2006. Applications based on Xamlon would probably need lots of modifications to work on MS XAML. And still you are only targeting windows.
l
XUL on the other hand is multiplatform and you can code XUL apps right now. A problem with XUL atm is that you cann't write stand-alone apps. Your XUL apps need to run through a mozilla browser.
That is all to change though, with the release of XRE http://www.mozilla.org/projects/xul/xre.html and GRE http://www.mozilla.org/projects/embedding/GRE.htm
I just hope these runtimes are released before MS releases XAML.
VStrider.
At the bottom of the page:
Contributors Wanted
If you are interested in contributing to the XULMaker project please contact me, Franklin de Graaf. In particular, I would especially appreciate some help from a graphic designer to do/redo the element icons, etc.
You are also invited to join the mailing list and read the newsgroup. This is where most of the discussion about XULMaker will take place.
That should take care of most questions, or at last Mr. de Graaf can answer them. I didn't post his email, but the link for it is on that mozilla page at the bottom.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Correction: "and thrives in its natural environment: Slashdot."
This Xamlon forum topic invites customers (presumably potential as well as current) to discuss why they'd find a port of Xamlon to Mono useful.
Presumably such discussion is more likely to be taken into account should it go there rather than here.
Why. No reason - we are a large nudist colony. We like things to be out in the open
LOL, you mean Microsoft didn't even invent the acronym? Reminds me of the Tom Lehrer song about Lobachevsky:
I never forget the day my first book is published
Every chapter I stole from somewhere else
Index, I copy from old Vladivostok telephone directory
(note that, at the time, Vladivostok probably didn't even have telephone)
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
It's more likely that xul/xaml will have html areas that support whatwg.org's stuff (or xforms, whatever).
www.mutilated.us
Music to kick your grandma in the nuts too!
Ahhh...what would a spelling flame be without containing an incorrectly spelled word of its own?
Apostrophe
A+, young AC, for carrying on the tradition!
XAML (the spec, not the implementation) entails more than XUL. Take SVG, add some other fine webtechnologies (XUL too if you like) and you have a great set with functionality that XAML can't deliver, plus it's way more open.
Of course none is better than the other in every situation, but that can of course mean the situation is wrong
Take a look at SVG on http://www.svgx.org/ , or maybe you're even one of the few hundred million to have a phone that can handle SVG.
it's a Super Versatile Goodie
See also http://mozcreator.mozdev.org/, and http://www.mozilla.org/projects/vixen/. Neither of these appear to be very far along though.
XAML is really an XML serialization mechanism for objects in the Avalon hierarchy rather than a particular set of XML tags in and of itself. The mapping between a XAML file and the Avalon objects that end up getting created when read in is very close.
or is it different? :-)
cheers
Laszlo Systems just announced an open-source cross-platform XML/Javascript based app building tool. That is much more interesting news I would think.
It's an open W3 thing that XAML has lots of similarities with (...), sometimes called "the HTML of graphics"
Awesome. I'm going to bust this one out in Scrabble!
'Thats they exact same thing a banana wrench monkey.'
> What, you mean like this?
Essentially, yes. However, I reserve judgment until I see a useful application developed with it. Last time I looked at that project it hadn't released in a year or so.
more managable. read up. BOLD is done with CSS
If you have data in XML, you can USE XSL to convert it to anything: HTML, XHTML, whatever.
Depending on your transformation rules.
If you like HTML, maybe you like "the HTML of graphics"; SVG, take a look, and at the same time learn XML is not so scary after all.
instead of building something good on a BUG platform
http://www.openlaszlo.org/ Lazlo recently made tis product open source. The language is almost XAML and generates flash content so you already have a thin client installed almost everywhere.
that might get them closer.
None of these are standards. If they want to be taken seriously, sit down, sign patent waivers, and go through the effort of comming up with a published standard.
These are all toys in the larger picture until they are patent free standards. Otherwise they are traps that companies _must_ avoid.
I like some of them. But suggesting their use until one bites the bullet is not prudent.
MyXAML is an impressive XAML parser; there are already simple examples out there of MyXAML compiled and running under Mono.
It is dual licensed as GPL/Commercial. The source code is downloadable and free to use and distribute as long as the application linking it is GPL (it can also be freely used if not distributed).
Fools ignore complexity; pragmatists suffer it; experts avoid it; geniuses remove it. ~A. Perlis
I would mod that insightfull post up.
Your model also has the benefit of deflecting "monopolist" criticism, after if YOU write the standard, then you can hardly be accussed of forcing out competing standards when you buy the company that implemented it.
Brilliant!
That pretty much sums it up. Netscape/Mozilla has been pushing XUL as a GUI dev plaform for years, and the designer is still begging for contributors.
Makes one wonder if pretending that XUL was useful outside of Mozilla was just a big mistake to begin with.
They're going to attract more developers because they're going to make sure there'll be decent documentation and a top-notch IDE. XUL got there years before XAML and it's documentation is still worse than XAMLs. I have the Lizard book (which contains glaring errors BTW) and most of xulplanet et al in bound form, and developing/debugging even simple applications is horrendously frustrating.
IMO a maximum of about 10% of the work is on the GUI, and the other 90% of the work is the code behind the GUI functions. Particularly on support - most work is on the behind, not on the front.
So, I can live without a GUI. It also often means that you understand the code written because you did it yourself, rather than having to examine code generated by a GUI.
xul and xaml are toolkits meant for generic app design, whether it be local or remote. xforms is a ground-up design for remotely-delivered web forms in a way that doesn't require tons of javascript to support weird data types. Whatwg is a modification of regular html forms to support some of the most popular data types that aren't directly supported in the current standards, like a date/time field.
All of them have overlap, all of them are competing for a spot as the chosen delivery platform for web forms.
nothing that adding a few extra open webstandards (SVG, etc) can't handle though