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Police Disperse Bush Protesters with Pepper Paintballs
help_cecil_help writes "The AP has this story on how Bush protesters in Jacksonville Oregon were dispersed by local police using 'pepperballs.' The Jacksonville City Administrator described the projectiles as 'like a paintball filled with cayenne pepper'."
wether you support Bush or not this is fascism.
The police didn't start firing pepper balls until people in the crowd started pushing them.
Is it excessive? Definitely. But rather than calling this fascism, I'd call this hyper-sensitivity by law enforcement, probably mostly due to the constant terror warnings and the much higher than normal tension over this election.
Fascism? No. This is a bunch of cops who would rather inflict than be inflicted upon. I highly doubt either candidate would tell the cops to do this!
From the article:
Yeah, most cities have noise ordnances. And: You start pushing them, they get worried about their safety, and respond. An earlier protest didn't get the news coverage, so I assume there were no pepper bullets fired there. Just a bit of a mob mentality (two opposing sides yelling at each other - it'll get heated!), and a few self-preserving cops.Nothing to see here. Move along.
Geez, is this guy made of tissue paper and popsicle sticks? Or is the reporter being a little melodramatic?
Another story from the same event. There were three women that were kicked out of the gathering and threatened with being arrested for wearing obscene tee-shirts to tht event. What did the tee-shirts say?
7 12.htm
"Protect our civil liberties"
http://www.bend.com/news/ar_view%5E3Far_id%5E3D18
From Bend.com news sources
Posted: Thursday, October 14, 2004 10:24 PM
Reference Code: PR-18712
October 14 - MEDFORD - President Bush taught three Oregon schoolteachers a new lesson in irony - or tragedy - Thursday night when his campaign removed them from a Bush speech and threatened them with arrest simply for wearing t-shirts that said "Protect Our Civil Liberties," the Democratic Party of Oregon reported.
The women were ticketed to the event, admitted into the event, and were then approached by event officials before the president's speech. They were asked to leave and to turn over their tickets - two of the three tickets were seized, but the third was saved when one of the teachers put it underneath an article of clothing.
"The U.S. Constitution was not available on site for comment, but expressed in a written statement support for "the freedom of speech" and "of the press" among other civil liberties," a Democratic news release said.
The Associated Press and local CBS affiliate KTVL captured Bush's principled stand against civil liberties in news accounts published immediately after the event.
The AP reported:
Three Medford school teachers were threatened with arrest and escorted from the event after they showed up wearing T-shirts with the slogan "Protect our civil liberties." All three said they applied for and received valid tickets from Republican headquarters in Medford.
The women said they did not intend to protest. "I wanted to see if I would be able to make a statement that I feel is important, but not offensive, in a rally for my president," said Janet Voorhies, 48, a teacher in training.
"We chose this phrase specifically because we didn't think it would be offensive or degrading or obscene," said Tania Tong, 34, a special education teacher.
Thursday's event in Oregon sets a new bar for a Bush/Cheney campaign that has taken extraordinary measures to screen the opinions of those who attend Bush and Cheney speeches. For months, the Bush/Cheney campaign has limited event access to those willing to volunteer in Bush/Cheney campaign offices. In recent weeks, the Bush/Cheney campaign has gone so far as to have those who voice dissenting viewpoints at their events arrested and charged as criminals.
Thursday's actions in Oregon set a new standard even for Bush/Cheney - removing and threatening with arrest citizens who in no way disrupt an event and wear clothing that expresses non-disruptive party-neutral viewpoints such as "Protect Our Civil Liberties."
When Vice President Dick Cheney visited Eugene, Oregon on Sept. 17, a 54-Year old woman named Perry Patterson was charged with criminal trespass for blurting the word "No" when Cheney said that George W. Bush has made the world safer.
One day before, Sue Niederer, 55, the mother of a slain American soldier in Iraq was cuffed and arrested for criminal trespass when she interrupted a Laura Bush speech in New Jersey. Both women had tickets to the event.
"Well we actually didn't shoot them before we shot them with cayenne pepper balls."
"why don't you just slip into something more comfortable...like a coma!"
You can tell I didn't eat enough at lunch as my first thought was "That would be good with some melted Monterey jack..."
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I've personally seen this happen before, during Critical Mass (an event where a large number of bicyclists essentially take over the streets). The police were keeping an eye on the situation, and 99% of the participants were well-behaved. Then a few people broke the law (ran a red light) and suddenly the police began chasing people down, yanking them off their bikes (which were tossed onto a flatbed truck) and arresting a few who protested the unfair treatment.
At this particular protest, there may have been a few hotheads in the front (there usually are) who decided to push the police. Then the police (who were probably just waiting for an excuse anyway) treated the whole crowd as potentially hostile, instead of just the agitators. Did the police over-react? I'd say yes. But I wasn't at that protest, so I can't say for sure. My advice is, if you are holding a protest, always have someone who is some distance away film the entire event. Heck, have several, from different vantage points. That way, if the police aren't justified in their actions, you have the proof right there, and proper steps can be taken.
psmylie's dictionary: Godzillion (noun) Any number large enough to destroy Tokyo
So Republican slashdotters: go and tell your party that an independant voter won't even consider your cantidates because of this. Change this from within because they certainly aren't listening to us external voices.
US Democracy:The best person for the job (among These pre-selected choices...)
I've been playing paintball for 10 years, 3 of which I spent working in the business, and the one thing the sport stresses the most is safety.
At normal playing velocities, a paintball will just feel like a firm slap when it hits your skin. However if one hits you in the eye, you'd better learn to walk with a white cane, because you're going to lose the use of that eye. This is why players wear a mask at all times unless off the field. Even assuming the police were trained to fire low in order to avoid hitting someone in the face, there's still the fact that paintballs aren't accurate past about 40 feet, and firing into a milling crowd would only make that worse.
Also note that I said normal velocities. I doubt the police had their markers set that low, since a few paintballs hitting you at 250 to 280 feet per second is not going to deter anyone. More likely they'd be set to at least the mid 300's, at which point they easily tear holes in clothing, not to mention the skin underneath.
Paintballs may sound nice and safe, but if they're used against people who aren't properly protected then it's only a matter of time before someone is permanently blinded.
The protestors were lucky the police weren't firing grenade launchers.
I protested the first Gulf War in Klamath Falls, and while the police weren't out in force, pro-Bush (I) protesters were there with shotguns- and the next night I skipped the protest to do homework only to hear my roommate's watercolor peace sign pulled off the door. When I opened the door, I got a ring in my eye and 7 stiches.
SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
I have never, ever seen anything like the reflexive hostility of this administration to normal political opposition. This Bush should expect it; he got into office on a hugely controversial court decision and with fewer votes than his opponent, and has proceeded to embark on an extreme right-wing program targetting access to and even information about birth control, gutting of pollution regulations and the doctoring of scientific information on government websites to conform to a partisan agenda.
Nothing can excuse this. Nothing. And then we read about the arrest and harassment of people whose only act is to register their discontent with the acts of the President, over and over and over.
I have few beefs with the President over the most controversial of his actions, over in a hot, tired and dusty land far away... but the rest of this stuff threatens the very soul of America if it is allowed to continue. So the only thing I can do is to vote the rascal out, as a lesson to him and any who would follow him:
Thou shalt not abridge the freedom of speech, or of the press, or tell falsehoods about the conclusions which our taxpayer-financed research has given us, or let anyone contaminate my air and water for the bonuses of the corporate executive class. Not In My Name.
(And that goes for anyone pandering to the postmodern PC idiotarians on the other side too; throw sops to them, and you've declared yourself my enemy.)
Sustainability and energy independence essay
I can hardly wait until we can spread American freedom all over the world.....
eat shiat and bark at the moon
Instead, like said above, they decided to take it out on everyone. I can see where past thoughts would have said to stop the entire protest because it could errupt into something very large. But, the police could have arrested the few perps and allowed the rest to go on. Anyone at the protest, who would have seen the people pushing their luck, probably would have supported the arrests and spread the word throughout.
Problem is that Americans see on TV how fast a crowd of peaceful people protesting can errupt into a mob of car-pushing, fire-lighting persons. Probably without even thinking, and going on what they have seen in the past, the police made the wrong decision.
It is time that police organizations around the country start to re-think the idea of crowd control. From the RNC to this situation, we have too much policing and not enough protesting.
The biggest security hole sits between the keyboard and chair.
-Andrew McAllister
Have you ever BEEN in a protest? There are always people who just want to fuck things up and make a scene.
Yes, like Bloody Sunday, where the word of the paratroopers *totally* justified the 27 people they shot, 13 of which were killed... Police PR tactics typically play the "blame the victm" game, which i'm just saying is fallacious, and generally untrustworthy.
-tid242
With a few exceptions, secrecy is deeply incompatible with democracy and with science. --Carl Sagan
Incidentally, pepperball.net appears to be a manufacturer and seems to be informative in how these may be applied. 350-380 fps is the nominal pepperball muzzle velocity.
[From FAQ] All PepperBall launchers can target accurately at distances up to 30 feet.For PAVA (Capsaicin II) area saturation, projectilescan be broken against a hard surface such as a car or wall at distances up to 150 feet.
In other words, they can still be effective even if you don't aim for the target individual.
[Training FAQ] PepperBall projectiles can be shot at point-blank range, although the kinetic impact will be slightly greater at close range. Suspects can be accurately targeted up to 30 feet away with the enough kinetic impact to shatter the projectile and leave a welt or bruise. PepperBall projectiles should never be aimed at a suspect's eyes, face, throat, and spine. Instead, aim below the neck at the suspect's torso or center of mass area.
There are multiple other statements that the pepperball is safe at point blank range. (what exactly "safe" means, I will leave to the reader's judgement.)
You are probably right; it's only a matter of time before someone bends down and gets hit in the eye. Then again, same thing for rubber bullets. Note that most riot control weapons are called "less lethal weapons," because they always have the potential of causing serious bodily injury if placed (in-)correctly. The difference with pepperballs is that you can still incapacitate your target if you hit the ground in front of them or the wall behind them.
It appears that pepperballs can be considered as a way of saturating the air of the target zone with a strong irritant. This option is completely unavailable in paintball (or with rubber bullets), and so really this method appears no worse than rubber bullets (or even hoses with water [since people will get knocked down].) I would also argue that a misplaced baton to the face would also cause permanent damage.
While the idea of getting shot by one of these doesn't sound that appealing, I would like to know:
Not that I'd use these in a paintball game, but this could be an interesting addition to the home defense arsenal.
Overrated / Underrated : Moderation
These pepperballs were used in Miami last November at the FTAA Ministerial protests. Police fired a whole lot of these things at protestors from guns like these - not at all unlike a normal paintball gun. They apparently can only be shot a short distance, but police would fire a whole lot into the crowd at once. Wounds generally look like this or this - red welts with a small chemical burn surroundinng it, but it isn't any consolation for this guy who got one in the face.
i would chalk this up to the police begin stupid. since political emotions are really high right now. i find it really hard to believe bush (or kerry should roles be reversed) or his people would tell the cops to start peppering people, for this very reason, it will get reported.
the cops started to move the crowd for 'security reasons', i am sure. one cop was probably green and got jittery.
i have seen cops stand there and ignore people screaming at them during new years parties or when the local team wins a huge game. i have even seen them wrestle down the few trouble makers and let everyone go about there business. sometimes the crowd gets dispersed w/ pepper/gas. usually once some morons flip over a car or something.
what are cops going to do? let property get destoyed or pepper some people.
in summary, more likely jittery cops than political.
always mosh clockwise
From TFA: "Jacksonville City Administrator Paul Wyntergreen said the protest was peaceful until a few people started pushing police. Police reacted by firing pepperballs, which he described as projectiles like a paintball filled with cayenne pepper. Two people were arrested for failing to disperse. There were no reports of injuries."
Police were pushed, then responded or: "He [Richard Swaney] said he was walking with the crowd away from the inn when he was hit in the back with three separate bursts, one of which knocked him down. He felt a stinging sensation he thought was rubber bullets and smelled pepper. "I don't think I moved fast enough,'' said Swaney. "I can't believe this happens in the United States. It was very peaceful. I think this is the way tyranny begins.''
The two statements don't exactly jive, and both one could say are biased--a protestor who got hit in the back while walking away and the city administrator. Who to believe? At best the city administrator's account is accurate and we have hypersensitivity by the police. If the city administrator's account is wrong and the protest was peaceful then we have something worse. Unfortunately we have no account from an objective, independent third observer to decide the matter.
The U.S. government is FAR more corrupt than people want to believe.
Here is a list of 3 movies and 35 books that say that the Bush administration is corrupt: Unprecedented Corruption: A guide to conflict of interest in the U.S. government.
Table of U.S. Parties and Economics
Government data shows Democrat and Republican spending patterns.
And what's with the epithet? I never even met Kenny!
Sustainability and energy independence essay
You make some good points -- my own cause (more trees, less Bush) isn't helped by name-calling.
Just one clarification:
Tolerance - [...] Appointing a record number of minorities to key cabinet positions is not tolerance.
One of the things that made Bush a reasonably good governor here in Texas is that he was more truly color-blind than your typical "I have black friends" Democrat. He carried that virtue into the Presidency as well, which gave me hope that even with Gore's contested defeat, the country would still have a chance.
Unfortunately, Bush proved that women and minorites can be just as dumb as white guys. That hubris knows no color. That Condoleesa Rice is just as qualified as any white male to make bad decisions. That Colin Powell can be duped into lying to the UN just as well as any white Secretary of State. And Hispanics can be just as radically right-wing as Anglos.
I hope that part of Bush's legacy is a true integration of the upper echelons of government. I just hope that his legacy can start being tallied next January 21.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
These are PROTESTS. They're outside. There are lots of people there. Didn't anybody bring a fucking video camera?
Fuck the system? Nah, you might catch something.
Oh yeah, because that wouldn't give the rest of the crowd a flimsy excuse to act like even bigger cocks and escalate the situation further. That NEVER happens at protests...
It all comes down to whether you believe that there are a few problem cases or almost all are problem cases. I believe that there are a few, you seem to believe that most of them are problems.
Oh shit! Look out! It's a mild irritant designed to disperse large and unruly crowds before they get out of hand by making it slightly uncomfortable to stay in the same place! NAZIIIIIIIIIS!
Let's try to keep the Nazi chatter under control, okay? Thanks.
How old are you? Twelve? Thirteen?
40
I have an idea. Let's throw YOUR BITCH ASS into the middle of 500 people that disagree with each other and see how YOU react when you get pushed around.
Been there, done that. Germany in the 70's. I was military and we had hundreds of people protest us. We were assigned to keep people out of one of our sites. We did it without any conflicts even though we only had our squad at that site. It's actually very easy to do, if you follow the training.
Do you sit back and let the situation escalate into violence or do you take steps right then and there to make sure that doesn't happen?
Like I said, you remove the problem cases and leave the rest of them alone. As long as they don't try to break through, they can sit and sing as long as they want.
You're a fucking liar if you say you don't end it right there if you can.
No, I've just had more training and practical experience dealing with protests. The majority of the people, in my experience, are calm and reasonable. It's only when the cops over-react that they become problems.
The right to peacefull protest is enshrined in everything we are about.
I would like something a little better than just the written word of the mainstream press that something happened. The AP has been doing alot of silent retractions on stories lately. The most infamous when they falsely reported that a republican rally had booed President Clintons good health.
This election has raised the question of the honesty of the press to a new level, while I am loathe to recomend curtailing freespeach the current libel/slander laws are clearly insufficient to curtail abuse. Perhaps Something like an honesty bond or bounty is neccesesary to keep the process honest.
Those weapons are meant for "riot dispersal". There are some differences between an angry crowd and a riot. If you're acting within your rights, your constitutional rights, and a police officer under orders from your government shoots you in the face with a paintball, filled not with paint but with cayenne pepper, to restrain you from further practice of your consitutional rights, guaranteed to you as a protection against government abuse, intentionally worded to allow no exceptions, is that a success? For who?
That's what worries some of us in the rest of the world.
The US people don't want to know or seem to care. Look at the response to Diebold, Iraq + "WMD".
When we say we don't support Bush, they say stupid stuff like: "That's because we don't want a strong America". Or we are lying/just-as-evil "Democrats". Doh! Just look at many of the postings here.
There was a strong America for gulf war I and AFAIK much of the world was fairly supportive up till the US gov did some dubious stuff post sep 11.
Dunno why so many US ppl don't seem to get it when/why the very same allies/neutrals that said "Go ahead, attack Iraq" when Iraq attacked Kuwait, said a very different thing when the US wanted to start Gulf War II.
AFAIK many of us don't mind a strong America. A "stupid/evil and strong America" is what worries us.
The US playing "World Police" is OK. It's when the US starts heading down the path towards "World Dictator" that scares us.
Face it US folk. We were right to say there was no justification for the 2nd Iraq war based on the official reasons given - we could see your leaders were not being _honest_ about the war. Whether they lied is another matter - but the lack of honesty was obvious to us, we don't understand fully why it wasn't obvious to you. EVEN NOW, the US Gov gets away with: "aw shucks, oops looks like the info wasn't good, oh well aren't you glad Saddam is out of power now?".
Doh. When the World Most Powerful Nation goes against the most of world opinion, unilaterally attacks an already hamstrung nation ruled by a evil dictator and most importantly doesn't give honest reasons for doing so, it's missing the point completely to swallow the "aren't you glad Saddam is gone" line.
Remember: being honest is not the same as not telling lies. When very many people say "you're wrong", if you really care about the truth, you should at least recheck the "facts", rather than keep massaging them till they look good to you.
I don't see how people can conclude Bush and the US Gov were honest.
A government which is abiding by the law would be firing and prosecuting the Secret Service agents and police officials responsible for these outrages, rather than institutionalizing the violation of civil rights under color of law. A government which abuses the power of arrest to "protect" the President from seeing people who disagree with his policies is not a government which is abiding by the Constitution, and to allow it to remain in office one day longer is to place all rights in jeopardy. The bastard has violated his oath of office (so much for his claim of "keeping his word"), and voting him out is the duty of everyone who holds the Constitution to heart.
Which, unfortunately, isn't all that many people these days.
Sustainability and energy independence essay
I'm always reminded of the paper I wrote on the World Bank and IMF riots in Seattle and DC - specifically on the topic of riot control.
4 7581.s tm
/.'ers hundreds or thousands of miles away are not really in the position to say whether or not the situation calls for it.
"The Battle of Seattle" happened because there were inadequately trained cops confronted by a huge number of unruly protesters. They _didn't_ take steps to crack down on the situation, and things spiralled rapidly out of control.
A good account from the BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5
The part to take away from there is that, indeed, some people come to these events for violent reasons.
Compare this to DC. In DC, the situation was almost as intense, but the cops raided a bunch of organizations the day before, and made quite a few arrests on the first day. While this was of dubious legality, DC didn't experience massive rioting, either.
In case you didn't follow my logic, "excessive force" can often prevent an unruly protest from turning into a full-blown riot. No, this is not a blanket statement intended to justify everything the police do - but
Now, the measures taken here don't compare to Seattle or DC. I've seen the cops shooting pepperballs at people who were rioting after the Maryland-Duke game, and while they hurt, they're hardly going to permenantly injure people. Bullhorns don't work for this sort of thing, and pepper balls are a damned sight better than nightsticks and fire hoses.
Most likely, the cops got shoved around a bit and over-reacted. I am sympathetic to the protesters, but the cops are always put in a bad situation by these sorts of events, too.
Crying "FASCISM!" because some county cops were scared and probably somewhat badly trained is laughable. No one even got hurt, for crying out loud!
This is no Kent State, in other words. Not even close.
-Erwos
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.