GTA: San Andreas Leaked

Anonymous Coward cuts-and-pastes: "Less than a week after a pirated version of Halo 2 began appearing on the Web, another of the year's most sought after games has been stolen. Ironically, it also happens to be a game titled after a larcenous act itself. That's right. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has become the latest victim of piracy, with illegal copies of the game, its manual, and its cover appearing on various Web sites." Update: 10/21 13:54 GMT by Z : Rockstar adds some details to what we know about the crime in a press release covered by CVG.

Comments

It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[garcia]

"Downloading, possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, including making the game available on the internet, is theft." Then came this warning from the company: "We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

I take the virtual theft of guns, money, sex with hookers, cars, and other people's lives very seriously and I will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter once I get my hands on the game.

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[(SM) Spacemonkey]

The logic of "Think of the Children Types":

GTA teaches our kids to steal, so our kids steal GTA, which teaches our kids to steal, so our kids steal GTA, which teaches our kids to steal... etc

Quite obviously, this vicious cycle is Rockstar's fault.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[sorrowfloats]

Then came this warning from the company: "We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

Anyone wanna let Microsoft know that someone has substantively ripped off the text of their Halo 2-leak threat? "Microsoft takes the integrity of its intellectual property extremely seriously, and we are aggressively pursuing the source of this illegal act." http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/10/14/news_61105 39.html/

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

And on the other side of the fence, we have the copyright violators (hmm, "pirates" is a lot less unwieldy), who continue the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to convince them that copying software is OK, because "it's not like we're actually stealing something".

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

"Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs"

You *DO* know the english language is almost designed to incorporate new word uses over time, or are you not a linguist and just want to continually bombarding folks with the idea that you know more than most?

Hell, most languages do this. The Hebrew language goes back into its history to find unused or underused words to represent modern tech simply to avoid using language from outside of its realm and to keep the language pure. Many others do the same.

Do you really think the general public wants a new word for copyright infringing when most will look at it as Hey Why Don't They Just Say Theft Or Piracy, Because Thats What It Is. Other than the morons that take 1984 to heart and want to shape public perception by forcing the use of word choice to promote their lifestyles:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.htm l

And you wonder why folks think RMS is a stinky hippy that wants to force everyone to his idea of society. He claims that he gives choice, all the while trying to shape the slash sheeple into his way of thinking by altering language and hopefully altering though because of it.

If we get away from thinking its theft, we can concentrate on calling it copyright infringement, which then sounds more like us v. THE MAN and thus the attitude starts to change.

I'm going to get modded to -5 for this but fuck it. You've personally derided my posts in the past for using words like theft and piracy and I'm sick of the fucking hippy element around here that can't learn to live and let live. I don't tell anyone else how they should live their lives, nor how to think, all I ask is that folks respect my personal properties which include any and all intellectual properties. I think this is all most content creators ask as well...

Oh wait, we can't use the word creator anymore either...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Oddly_Drac]

"I'm sick of the fucking hippy element around here that can't learn to live and let live."

That's the fundamental basis of the 'fucking hippy element'. You may have meant something else.

"way of thinking by altering language"

He's just being fashionable. I think the rot started with 'By the people, for the people'. It later continued with the redefinition of 'defense' into 'bomb 'em first'.

"Oh wait, we can't use the word creator anymore either..."

Only as long as you don't apply it to a homocentric anthromorphic diety, or other such fictional construct. It's terribly crass and likely to get people backing away from you.

"You *DO* know the english language is almost designed"

You call it design, we call it evolution.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

You *DO* know the english language is almost designed to incorporate new word uses over time, or are you not a linguist and just want to continually bombarding folks with the idea that you know more than most?

Do you really think the general public wants a new word for copyright infringing when most will look at it as Hey Why Don't They Just Say Theft Or Piracy, Because Thats What It Is. Other than the morons that take 1984 to heart and want to shape public perception by forcing the use of word choice to promote their lifestyles

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'm gonna jump in here anyway. English, like most other languages, is evolving over time as new words are introduced and others fall into disuse. Generally this is not a problem as new words are required to describe new things/concepts and older words may describe things/concepts that are no longer useful or relevant.

I agree that sometimes new meanings are attached to words that already used to mean something else. This is perfectly acceptable for most words where meaning can be derived from context. But, when we are talking about legal language, or words used in a legal context, we have to restrict ourselves to very specific definitions. "Piracy" is used to describe a specific violation (or group of violations)of the law while "theft" describes another. They are not interchangeable in the legal context. The same is true for "copyright infringement". This is a specific violation of law that is separate from both theft and piracy.

The definition of these terms aren't kept separate because there is some plot by the "man" to restrict your freedom of expression. They are kept separate in order to prevent chaos within the legal system and to maintain some sort of societal order.

If this was not the case we might see this situation:

Person 1: I want to charge that guy for "theft", and by theft I mean the guy walked on my lawn.

Cop: That would be trespassing.

Person 1: Not in my world buddy

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[goldspider]

"i wont shell out 50 euros for most games or 20 euros for a dvd"

Then don't. I wouldn't pay $600 for the latest version of Adobe Photoshop either, but that does not give me the right to simply copy it from P2P.

You might want to wait till you can get a used copy of the games/DVDs you want. That's the honest way to get them if you don't want to pay full price.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

"That's the fundamental basis of the 'fucking hippy element'. You may have meant something else."

You know, I'd attended a dozen dead shows in my life. My mom had the hippy ideas, and a lot of my friends were hippies growing up.

This is no more the ideal of hippydom than George Bush is bombing Iraq to free people from the tyranny of Saddam.

Hippies want to rule the world. They want to force us to believe how they believe. They want nothing more than to annihilate thought different than their own. I've *NEVER* met a hippy that was representative of the ideal that wasn't 100% identical to those around him. You find this in the Republican Party these days too. People want to be led and someone is obviously doing the leading...and more than that, they want uniformity. Uniformity frees one from having to think outside the lines, man. Sure, their coloring books might not have lines, but the minute someone suggests putting them in, they are demonized.

Their society is no different than the one we live in today, and more than that, its just as damaging from a progressive standpoint.

As for evolution -- its not evolution if folks *HAVE* to shape its existence. Its one thing for ideas and constructs to show up and be accepted, its another to go out of your way to enforce the usage of it...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Ohreally_factor]

I want to charge you with copy trespass, and by copy trespass I mean that you made me spit my coffee.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Presenting an argument as if it were ridiculous, as a way of countering it, is a fallacy. So let's be explicit: what is your specific logical response to this argument?

OK, I'll bite.

Copying this game isn't stealing in the usual sense of the word, like taking a physical asset from the owner. But you are potentially still causing them damage. Perhaps you would not have bought the game... but you're happy to share the copy of this game with your friends, and your friends' friends, some of which might be potential customers. Suppose everyone obtained their copy from a friend instead of buying it... even though no-one actually stole anything from Rockstar, they'd get no revenue from a product they probably spent several million on to develop. Many people counter this argument with a rationalisation "Oh, I would not have bought this game anyway, it's all the others causing the damage". Well, I can certainly believe that you wouldn't buy the game for $50 when you can get it for free... which is why you are still causing damage to the company by passing the copy onwards to others, thereby convincing them not to pay money for a legit copy.

Copyright is a rather artificial construct. Why would we allow publishers control over their work, if that work could be made to benefit the whole world without any additional cost to the publisher? Answer: because it still takes money to create the work, and publishers should be able to make a profit on it. Only a communist would demand that publishers and artists work for nothing... and that is what you are demanding when you state that it is OK to copy software. That, or you think that others should pay for the content you enjoy for free...

Of course there are reasons why copying actually helps rather than hurts: people can have a free preview, it's like free advertising for the publisher, etc. etc. But if you copy something and continue to use it, I have no problems calling you a thief of the artist and of those who paid for their legitimate copy.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[MyHair]

I'm pretty sure somebody used this copy before I downloaded it off of p2p.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[-noefordeg-]

"You might want to wait till you can get a used copy of the games/DVDs you want. That's the honest way to get them if you don't want to pay full price"

I thought a lot of software/movie EULAs didn't allow for resales.
Wouldn't that be just as illegal as copying it?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[BlackHawk-666]

Hahah, the fools. I'm straight to the copyright office now to assert my rights over the boilerplate text that laywers use on their contracts and letters. Those bastards will have to pay me eveytime they say "without prejudice" now...oh the delicious, but not quite ironicness of it all.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[garett_spencley]

I want to extend on that...

The fact that all these kids copy games makes me really pissed. I don't mind much when it's music .. because there's hidden benefits to the artist of sharing music (I'm a musician so I can make that statement confidently). But the gaming industry is fragile. It's like a mini hollywood, only it's value hasn't quite been realized yet.

Kids love video games. I'm an adult and I still love video games. I'm looking forward to San Andreas .. but I'll probably wait for the PC version since I don't own nor care much for the PS2.

The thing is .. and most slashdotters know this I think .. it does take millions of dollars to produce a game like San Andreas. GTA III was the first commercially successful game to throw you into a complete 3D world .. why were they first ? We've had the technology for a few years .. why did it take Rockstar until the late 90's to produce one ? Because it's too fucking expensive and the returns aren't guaranteed.

Game theft threatens the gaming industry more than any kind other kind of 'piracy' (god I hate that word). If kids want to be able to play new games in the future that really push the envelope, and aren't just cheesy knock-offs of the games that were successful 5 years ago .. then they better stop biting the hand that feeds them. ... because pretty soon the investors won't be there to throw their money into future development.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Megaweapon]

So if the "might" of many people downloading copyrighted software justifies the action, can't the "might" of huge corporations knocking down your door and taking your computer be justified as well?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[WWE-TicK]

> Developers and publishers have no right to
> profit

As somebody who works as a software developer professionally, all I gotta say to you in response to this is "FUCK YOU" followed by a "KISS MY ASS".

> except in as much as customers will
> voluntarily pay them.

Oh ... but isn't it always voluntary? Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to shell out money, is there? If you don't like the price, look elsewhere. If nobody provides the same thing for the price you're looking for, either do it yourself or suck it up and pay the price.

> But please, don't demand that I pay money to
> publishers and artists

That's fine as long as you don't go ahead and use their work without paying for it (assuming the developer wants you to pay for it). If you don't want to pay, then don't use it.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

Well explain to me from a business sense, how a company that puts millions of dollars into making cars, is different from a company that puts millions of dollars into making music so that everyone from their janitor to their lawyers can get a paycheck? It's a company, it's a product. When you take their product and don't pay for it, it damages the company. Just because they can make more, or because the actual 'cost' of the raw product is low, doesn't mean that you should take it for nothing, or less than they are asking. You can't say, "Well i think it should cost less- because it costs only $15,000 of raw parts, so i'll go to a hummer dealership and steal the car and then leave $15,000 in their mailbox".

It's not for you to deciede. If someone puts time/effort/money into making something, then they own it... even if it's intelectual property, or a physical object. Just because the intelectual property is intangible (and easily copyable) doesn't mean it should be free if the owner doesn't want it to be.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

Thanks for the comments. The reason that the third option exist and is valid is simply "by default". If we start in a tabula rasa society, there is no reason why you can't copy something. The old principle of "whatever I do in my house is my business". For copying to be wrong, there must be a reason, if there aren't, it is right.

And as for the reasons, the best that the copyright advocates can come up with is that "companies have the right to profit", which is obviously baloney (even though in present-day USA some agree with that shit). Most other arguments are fallacies - "copying = theft", "what if nobody paid for software", etc.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[herc_mk2]

It's not wrong to get something for free. It's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you and that wasn't freely given to you.

Well said. Although I hate feeding trolls (like the grandparent), I can't resist this one...

There's only one reason the programmers* get paid: because their employer (the studio) and the publisher expect to make enough money from sales to cover their costs (and hopefully a little extra).

So what if the programmers already got paid? If the studio has already spent all of its money paying employees, but doesn't get anything in return, how long do you think that studio will stay alive? Then the programmers are out of a job, and if studios aren't making money, there won't be any jobs for them to get.

Sorry if you consider this to be "capitalistic crap," but it's the reality of the way the world works. No, I take that back -- I'm not sorry at all.

* -- There are a lot more people involved in the production of a game than just programmers: there are 2D and 3D artists, mission designers, musicians and audio engineers, voice actors, producers, etc. Plus all of the people in the other departments that any company needs to survive, such as accounting, human resources, and, of course, legal...

Ms. Pacman

[2.7182]

Interesting. I recall that one of the first "Leaked" games was a version of Ms. Pacman for the commodore 64. I think I was in HS, so that would be about 1984.

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Feminist-Mom]

Yes, it came out in pirated form before it hit the stands, if that is what you mean. But it didn't make much difference since back then pirated software moved so slowly, since people used to have to physically get together and bring their disk drives. I remember having little parties like this with my Apple II !! Those were the days....

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Anonymous Coward]

But sometimes it moved like the wind.

I used to love cracking BBC Micro games. I remember when FRAK! was released, it had some rather good (for the time) copy protection. It took me hours to crack, but eventually lady luck smiled on me and it was cracked.

I gave a copy to a friend of mine on the Monday.

On the Friday I went to see some old chums from Uni. about 150 miles away. Guess what? They had my cracked version!

And during the course of the year, every single copy of this game I cam across was my cracked version.

I later went on to develop and sell some of my own copy protection and had great fun hearing people bitch and moan about how they couldn;t crack it. Blew their mind when I told them I was the author.

Fun days.

Garcia Marquez's last book

[rguiu]

This is a another example, as the bbc explain in the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3745484.stm

But what Garcia Maruez did finally is he modified the final chapter of the book so the book in the street does not have the same ending than the published book. Quick reaction and probably a very good publicity campaign for boths, the pirate version and the published version

need proof of this

[ylikone]

Please post bittorrent links.... thanks!

*sigh*....

[joper90]

Another dupe.. and a day late also..

But on another note why is this making news.. Every single xbox,pc,gc,ps2 etc etc game is cracked/released, and normally before retail dates.

Just because they big name games does it actually matter.. This has been going on since the days of the zx81 (and prob before).

Re:*sigh*....

[BondGamer]

Because the slashdot editors would like someone to post a bit torrent for them. They don't have enough time or friends to find the link.

Whew

[StevenHenderson]

This will help with the supply shortage on the release date!

What?

[Heem]

WHOA WHOA! You mean to tell me there is pirated software on the internet!?!? Next you'll be telling me I can download Music and Pornography.

Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

This happens with every single game that comes out. Why all of a sudden is this huge news? Back in the days of doom and quake games were pirated days and weeks before their release. Granted, lately it's been sometimes the day of or a day after the game has been released to retail that a game gets pirated, but this isn't news people. It's been happening for 10+ years. One thing that has changed, is how easy it is for people not involved in the "scene" to get these releases. Before you used to have to know the right people, nowadays all you need to do is load up the latest p2p app and anyone can find it.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Rik Sweeney]

It's been happening for 10+ years. One thing that has changed, is how easy it is for people not involved in the "scene" to get these releases.

The other thing is that it's now cool to play video games.

That and the fact that it's also big business.

Re:Has been happening for years

[SuperBanana]

This happens with every single game that comes out. Why all of a sudden is this huge news?

Probably because marketing people have figured out that only big games are news when they're pirated, so now they try and make sure everyone knows when their game is pirated, because then people will think "oh, it must be big if it was pirated before it's even on the shelves! There must be a lot of demand, it must be an awesome game!"

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the software companies made it quite easy for a pristine copy to make its way into the hands of someone who will post it all over the place, simply for the press and to get word of mouth going by having people play it and ramp up the hype about it.

Re:Has been happening for years

[leshert]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the software companies made it quite easy for a pristine copy to make its way into the hands of someone who will post it all over the place, simply for the press and to get word of mouth going by having people play it and ramp up the hype about it.

I'm not saying this is the case with GTA:SA, but this is something that's been discussed for years:

Alternately, prepare a version that almost works, but shows defects that cause unplayability, oh, about a third of the way through the game (assuming 40 hours of playability). Make the defects such that they could be attributed to either a bad copy or slightly-working DRM, rather than actual code errors.

Leak _that_, get people playing it (and liking it), and then they'll be more likely to buy it once the "failure" happens, if the "real" DRM is good enough to create a disincentive to actual copying.

It's really just a sneakier way to market a demo, because its "forbidden" nature makes it more irresistable, it allows the company to generate more press then "yet another demo" would, and also continues the story arc of "woe is us due to piracy".

[Incidentally, some homegrown DRM schemes in published games have done exactly this for actual illegal copies. When a copy is detected, it doesn't stop play immediately; it only makes it impossible to play the game through to completion, either by subtly "breaking" the gameplay or else by waiting until a specific point in the game and then letting the player know explicitly that the copy has been detected, and the game won't be finishable. Deferring notification of detection turns the game into a very effective crippled demo. If I recall correctly, Spyro or Spyro 2 did this, from reading a development team post-mortem, and I remember there was a game back in the black-and-white Mac days that would play normally for a time, then display the message "Piracy is a very serious offense." and exit.)

Ohhh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

A game about robbing and stealing and wrackage and mayhem leaks out for everyone to steal. It is beautiful.

What problem?

[Quill]

However, it is already clear [...] piracy is becoming an increasingly common and serious problem for both gamers and the games industry.

I have never condemmned piracy, but "a problem for gamers" - what kind of tripe is this?

Actually, I see their point. The game publishers try to combat piracy with more draconian copy protection. This *is* a problem for gamers. The gamers who legitimately paid for their game. Not for those who download a cracked version.

Re:What problem?

[harrkev]

You are correct, but there is more to the picture.

Game development is a *business*. That means that they are in this *to make money*. They have employees, rent, etc.

So, if piracy costs them sales, then they have to raise the price to compensate. Or perhaps they decide NOT to make that cool new experimental game which might be a big hit or it might flop. "Let's just stick to making another FPS. Not too original, but it will sell like hotcakes."

So, if there were no piracy, you might find slightly less expensive games, as well as a larger variety.

One thing to consider, however, is how many of those pirated copies represent lost sales. I bet that many people will pirate to get it now, and then buy it when it is on a shelf. Many other might pirate it, but would not have purchased it any event. Since it is difficult to do a survey of people downloading warez, we will never really know how many downloaded copies actually represent lost sales (my guess is about 1/4 or so).

Re:What problem?

[stanmann]

And if there were slightly less expensive games and a larger variety, there would be more buyers, piracy or not. Every person who downloads before he buys, contributes to the higher quality games being produced and reduces.... I'm not arguing for or against piracy, just attempting to introduce logic. FWIW, Doom3 has its roots FIRMLY in the try before you buy arena.

This is El Burro of the Rockstar Diablos.

[AntonyBartlett]

A thieving opportunist has stolen a van of my latest publication hot off the press! But that SPANKED-up idiot has left the rear doors open and now my, artistically violent, tastefully desctructive video game is being dropped all over the Internet. Persue that trail of illegal copies diligently and aggressively collecting evidence as you go. When you've followed the trail to that thieving SPANK-head, waste him.

Cry me a fscking river

[jeffasselin]

"Nothing to see here, move along", as they say...

There's nothing new here. The warez scene has been doing -1 and 0-day releases forever. I've seen -7 releases before. They're getting a bit better, and I suspect some of the biggest networks are probably paying people to do the leaks, which helps things.

This is news only because the game has been widely publicized. This happens all the time.

Please don't copy it.

[Rogerborg]

Look, I know a guy who's working on it, a really decent man. He has a wife, a child, and another on the way. If you copy this instead of buying it, you're contributing to putting him out of a job just when he needs one the most.

This isn't a theoretical issue. Rockstar aren't some faceless cartel. Please. Do the right thing this time.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[wibald]

That's right. Don't copy it. Buy a pirated copy from a street vender. After all, he has a family to support, too.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

it is not theft, it is copyright infringement.

Dont be dismissive of this, they have two different, and distinct meanings.

Re:What Next?

[Winterblink]

Please. Lets come back to this discussion after we see how many copies of Halo 2, Half-life 2, and GTA: San Andreas are sold. I guarantee you they won't be sparing the champagne at the developer's launch parties this year.

Re:What Next?

[Rik Sweeney]

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

Dongles don't work.

When Robocop 3 came out on the Amiga years ago they used a dongle. The pirates simply hacked the code and told it to ignore the dongle check.

The worst bit was that the hacked version was circulated before the game was even launched.

San Andreas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Alright, whose fault is this???

nyuk nyuk...i kill me...

Re:Inside Job

[strictfoo]

These security breaches occur at the plants that manufacture the PS2 discs themselves. Rockstar doesn't do this, an outside (sony approved?) company does this.

No need to fire programmers!

Re:What Next?

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

Not a good idea. USB devices can be easily emulated in software ( c.f. various "virtual cdrom" drives that appear as being on the USB bus ), and there is a well developed and sophisticated toolchain on nearly all platforms of note for debugging and analysing USB information flow.

Unfortunately, there is precious little other in the way of standardised ports to plug into. Some machines are even shipping without Parallel ports now, if the word I'm hearing is correct, which is a bit troublesome if you're trying, for example, to run Compumedics Profusion 2 which uses a parallel dongle.

YLFI

Great marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

This question is for people who believe that music file trading increases CD sales. Ever consider that maybe releasing your software online, then crying that it has been pirated, is a fantastic and free marketing ploy? The vast majority of game players actually by their games. So when they see news like this posted on Slashdot and other sites, it's simply free advertising, and a powerful message that this game must be damn hot, so I just gotta rush out and buy it as soon as it hits the stores.

This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[BRock97]

Prepare for a "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around" question...

So, hypothetically, if Half-Life 2 were to be pirated, I download the game, and I already have it paid for via Steam, is it illegal?

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Firehawke]

Great question there. I'm going to say that the legal side of the question is iffy-- it might be illegal yet since you didn't get it through legal distrobution methods (read: the ROM image situation; if you didn't dump it yourself, the copy is illegal).

Morally, however, I'd say it's much less grey. It's absolutely fine, in my opinion-- you did pay for it BEFORE you downloaded it, after all. They've got their money either way, so no harm was actually commited.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Jakhel]

Actually, in most cases you know it's FAKE.

No one, not even a crackhead, would sell a rolex for $20. They would at least get $50

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Xenographic]

Erhm, I'm afraid you're quite wrong.

It most certainly is illegal, thanks to our screwy IP laws, but since you actually paid for it, it's highly questionable exactly what harm they would suffer as a result of your actions. Let me repeat that: it is illegal in any country which has signed the Berne treaty recognizing copyrights. There are damned few countries that haven't signed that treaty. If you're in an english-speaking country, you're probably covered by it, with the possible exception of Sealand.

Given the lack of harm suffered by the publisher in that case, however, it's an open question as to how wrong it was. And for parent, I'd like to remind you that not everything that is legal is moral, just as not everything illegal is necessarily immoral--we don't have the power to change laws for nothing.

If our laws work against the many for the benefit of the few, is it so unreasonable to rethink them?

The reason people react so with the debate over whether or not it's "stealing" is because until quite recently it wasn't. Let me repeat that: it wasn't considered wrong. Why should someone own an idea just because they thought it first? If it's really "property," why do the rights to it expire? Have our laws not forgotten the public domain--the very thing they were meant to *enrich* by encouraging publication?

So then, in my view, one should obey the law as it is for now, but work to change it into something more reasonable and more workable.

Re:What Next?

[Zog The Undeniable]

Dongles are expensive (compared to a few cents for a CD), annoying for genuine users and easily circumvented once someone cracks the software to remove the dongle existence check. They are consquently very unusual.

The only viable copy protection is similar to that used in Quake III, where you're banned from any Internet servers if you use a duplicate key. There's no killer solution for software that doesn't require the Internet to run (even Q3 would always work in single-player mode).

But hey, look at how many people downloaded the warezed copy of Doom 3, and Activision still sold a metric shedload of CDs. I wouldn't cry too much - piracy is going to hurt the publishers of weak games worst, 'cos everyone can find out that it sucks before it goes on sale ;-)

GTA for FREE (and Legal)

[ForestGrump]

ok, so its not the latest and greatest
but Rockstar has made the orig GTA free for dl

Grump

Save your download time

[chegosaurus]

It's just Pacman with a bow.

Actually...

[LighthouseJ]

If the game was about trying to reform the main character away from robbing and stealing, then it would be irony. Since there is no relative constrast between the game plot and downloading leaked copies, this cannot be irony.

Stolen?

[foolip]

What does the article actually say has happened? Has a copy of the game actually been stolen, or has a copy been made and put online? Since its impossible to steal immaterial things it should mean the latter, but with all the deliberate confusion of theft and copyright infringement that goes on its impossible to say.

Non news...

[MavEtJu]

Wake me up when a game hasn't been leaked, stolen, copied or otherwise made available to the public before it has been released.

it was me...

[EnVisiCrypt]

Grand Theft Auto made me do it.

Re:What Next?

[jxyama]

what does that have to do with anything? just because they are going to sell a lot of copies makes it ok that their intellectual property distribution rights were violated? if someone's rich, does it make it actually okay to steal from him/her, instead of, perhaps, less morrally wrong?

Re:PC Version

[DeathByDuke]

I strongly agree. GTA started out on the PC, designed for the PC, and with the PC gaming audience in mind (yeah, we're mindless car thieving yobs, jump on that Daily Mirror). They got their riches through the PC, and grew through the PC. So why neglect it? Max Payne. PC. GTA 1-2, PC first. Where did your early money come from Rockstar? PC. So, once again, Why neglect us?

mmm. . . websites. . .

[BigDawgES]

. . . appearing on various Web sites.

Downloading warez from a

• website

? What a quaint, antiquated idea!
(That's so 1995.

I'm sure a few communities still do it that way, but I think systems like IRC are the norm; harder to shut them down.

Re:What Next?

[gfxguy]

And here we have the prime example of the honest users being shackled with burdensome copyright prevention, while dishonest users remain happily unencumbered...

So tactics like these are supposed to promote honesty and goodwill between the game makers and their patrons?

I've said it numerous times here before... I do not promote copyright infringement, but the industry really needs to just look the other way to a certain extent... there's going to be a break even point between how much they spend trying to prevent copyright infringement and how many more people will actually buy the game.

In other words, if you look at all the people who, if they couldn't "steal" the game, would actually buy it , I think you'll find that game companies/RIAA/MPAA are wasting their time and money and promoting illwill.

I know a lot of people claim to download games to try them out before they buy... I don't think it's justifiable for a couple of reasons, but did exactly the opposite; I used to download cracked versions of games (or instructions on how to crack them) I previously bought just to remove the shackles that prevented me from enjoying the game. If you're the game industry, you're claiming that as another lost sale...

Re:What Next?

[MartinG]

does it make it actually okay to steal from him/her,

I only point this out in the interests of clarity. Say after me:

"COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT STEALING"

(It's illegal and widely believed to be morally wrong, but it's NOT stealing)

The only effective copy protection:

[celerityfm]

The only effective copy protection I've ever seen is to make a compelling online-only game such as Counter-Strike.

Once you have the gamers online you can weave in connections to a centralized server where you can pull all sorts of tricks to insure that they are using a CDKEY that you issued, only once, with software that matches MD5 checksums/etc.

It's still possible to crack this, but AFAIK there is no effective multiplayer counterstrike crack, and given that the game has been out as long as it has been you would figure someone would have come up with SOMETHING by now. Even if they do, Valve would just issue a systemwide patch to combat it.

Same goes with MMORPGs and XBOX live/etc.

Every other form of copy protection is a plague on gamers. Granted Counter-Strike's cd key system has its own problems, but it's not as harsh as say, disabling the use of daemon tools or requiring a dongle or whatever. I predict that when net access becomes ubiquitous enough you'll see every game/application hit the net for authorization before running, on PC or consoles. Sad but true.

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

By me copying and downloading and then spreading their product I haven't denied them of anything.

Amazingly ignorant comment. You are denying them the profit they have a right to. No one has a right to possess a copy of the game if they have not received it through legit means. This whole theft/copyright infringment argument is tiring, because the end result is that people are breaking the law. Theft is not the wrong word to use, it's just that the definition of the word is dated. Good luck trying to bring webster's dictionary into court to try and protect yourself.

Grow up. Piracy is wrong and it does cost the industry jobs and a lot of money (although not as much as they claim).

I don't get it.

[tomstdenis]

Wouldn't the best way to continue to see "more of the same" be to support the creator of the content?

I mean if GTA is so popular [and personally I love the series] and you want to see more GTA wouldn't it make sense to buy a 50$ copy?

By pirating it all you're doing is hindering their ability to make new games. This isn't like the RIAA/MPAA situation. While I'm sure there are six figure execs at Rockstar I'm also sure that the bulk of the revenue goes straight back into employee salary.

I'm going to buy a copy because I think it's worth it and I want to support their endeavours. If I thought GTA was a waste of time/money I would...shock...gasp... NOT GET A COPY BY ANY MEANS!

So little kiddies who "must pirate" the game... grow the fuck up. Get a job and pay the 50$ for a copy of the game. What sickens me more is that even some of my friends [who are older than I am] still pirate games... lame lame lame lame lame.

Tom

And that should stop them?

[SeanDuggan]

The explanation is quite straight forward. It's lawyer-speak, and you can expect to see it standardised. Not always quite this similar, but it is no coincidence (or theft of MS' threats).
*snort* Yeah, and various software algorithms are standardised and the most obvious and simple answer to a question. It doesn't keep corporations from copywriting those. Free speech is becoming less free-like-beer these days.

How did he outsmart them

[SmallFurryCreature]

The pirates got version A and now that it is out they can rip version B.

Worse true fans now need to get the pirate version because they want to know the alternative ending. Similar to how movie fans want the directors cut and removed scenes.

Good

[Sentry21]

I don't approve of piracy in and of itself - people put a lot of time and hard work into this software, and the long hours they put in are no picnic, make no mistake. If their work has produced a result that is enjoyable, I think people should pay for it. A friend of mine has Neverwinter Nights and the two expansions, but I spent $50 on the Platinum instead of $0.50 on a blank DVD, because it's worth it.

That all being said, I am glad in a way that games are getting pirated, though it's not having the effect I'd like. My roommate downloaded Doom 3 before it was released, as (according to suprnova) did several hundred thousand other people. As a direct result, we wasted at least 20 minutes playing the game (waste is right) before we decided that it was hopeless - the graphics were phenominal - not realistic, but phenominal anyway. The physics was well-done as well, and the environment felt real.

The game, however, was terrible.

If I had bought the game for anything more than $5, I would have kicked myself, and even if I had paid $5, I could have gotten a pork roast for that and had a good dinner instead. It was a complete waste of time, and as much as we tried to justify playing it, eventually we got sick and gave up.

Doom 3 lost a lot of sales to piracy, not because people weren't forced to buy it, but because people realized they didn't WANT to buy it. If I download GTA:SA and I like it, I'll get it. If I don't, I'll delete it (well, I'll burn it off then lose the DVD, which is the same thing).

Thanks to the proliferation of broadband and bittorrent, piracy has become the way we test our content first. ISOs are the new game demos, Telesyncs are the new trailers, and media, for a good portion of those so-inclined in North America, purchases have moved into the honor system - every 'ware is shareware now, and people are starting to realize that it's easier to download and try it out than to haggle with the clerk at EB when they find out the much-hyped 'game of the century' is both uninspired and pointless.

So yes, I'm glad this is released - not necessarily before the game is out, but I don't honestly think that matters, except for the 'first-day sales' figures, and those are largely unaffected anyway.

--Dan

Oh, there's no Bittorent link...

[artemis67]

In order to steal the game, you have to beat up enough cops and hookers in your town, and run over a few pedestrians on your way to work, and then you will be approached by a mysterious stranger who will send you on a mission that will result in your getting a bootleg copy of GTA:SA.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

the profit they have a right to

A word of advice, steer clear of flawed statements like this. Nobody has a "right" to profit.

However, by infringing their copyrights (getting the game without paying for it), you have obtained their game _illegally_, and if you are participating in mass copyright infringement, it's a _criminal_ offence in the UK.

Theft _is_ the wrong word to use. Theft is a completely different crime from copyright infringement. You will not be prosecuted for theft. If you go to court, they won't say "theft" or "stolen" once. They'll prosecute you for "copyright infringement", and they'll use phrases like "massively infringed" and "duplicated without authorisation".

Copyright infringement is a much better phrase than "theft" or "piracy", because it also works for Free Software. Only copyright law stops people from taking free code and making it non-free. If we tried to say they "stole" our code, they'd retort "hah! how can you steal something that's free?". As you can see, "steal" is an extremely poor word choice for copyright infringement.

If you were to actually steal GTA, you'd do that by going into the shops when it is released and physically stealing the box from the shelf or the game discs from the stock drawers.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Snowmit]

What if I don't recognize that right? Who gave you that right?

Are you, NEW? Those rights are enshrined in a variety of copyright legislations and international treaties. Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that you get free reign to ignore them anymore than the fact that I disagree with the taboo against murder allows me to come over there and kill you with this shiv.

What did they expect????

[DarkMantle]

I mean the game is Grand Theft Auto.... it's a game where you're a thief and your stealing things in a modern world.

Hell, one could argue they taught us to do this

And BTW: I thought the term was "Copyright Infringement" which is different from theft.

Information wants to be free

[JustDisGuy]

But artists want to get paid. There are obviously no copy protection schemes that can not be circumvented, short of letting Palladium pwn the box, so what do we do to fix it?

The reality of the situation is simple - if the practice of creating and providing new art (software, music, whatever) is not profitable, there will be a great deal less content being made available to the masses.

Lots of people here are calling each other thieves and whining about infringement vs. theft and generally bickering, but I haven't seen anyone trying to fix the situation. How can we provide content that is freely shareable to the public, and yet ensure that content creators are appropriately (perhaps itself a matter for debate) remunerated?

I propose this - government sponsored artists who get paid based on the number of unique users of their product. Everytime I fire up my "free" version of Photoshop (or GTA, or Celine Dion's whatever) it shoots an informational 'bullet' at a government server where my IP, my unique machine ID and the content ID is recorded. The government tracks the number of unique users (but NOT! the identity of those users!!) of a given product and directly pays the content provider an agreed upon sum per use. The source of the funds could be an entertainment tax that is levied specifically for this purpose, and which you pay voluntarily. Those who pay get their unique ID issued, those who do not, don't. There may (and almost certainly would be) continued piracy, but I think the vast majority of people would willingly participate in such a scheme, because it simplifies the situation for them and it ensures that people who create content continue to get paid.

There would of course be losers in this scheme, and they would be those who currently occupy the position of 'middle man'. They would still be able to represent and promote artists, but artists would also be able to choose to forego that representation and promotion in favor of payments made directly to them.

Whaddya think?

I prefer educational titles...

[Rorschach1]

I've spent the last two days solid in French language immersion on my XBox.

Re:I prefer educational titles...

[celerityfm]

Bud Light Presents: Real Men of Genius
(real men of genius)

Here's to you, Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer.
(Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer!)

Without you, the half-wits of the world just wouldn't understand the humor on /.
(Wouldn't have a cluee-eeee!)

They'd spend hours searching the net for an explanation and might end up killing themselves in frustration.
(One less moron in the worrrld!)

But thanks to you they can pretend to have gotten the joke from the beginning like the rest of us.
(Wasn't that funnayyyyy!)

So crack open an ice-cold Bud Light, Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer-- You know that not everyone gets the obscure /. jokes and you know how to ruin the humor for the rest of us!
(Mr. Obvious Joke Explainerrrrrr!)

/sarcasm :)

Piracy is going to strengthen subscription model

[fitten]

Well, we've already seen it start happening, but I think that piracy will be one of the reasons most companies will move to a subscription model. Basically, the software that you get (whether legit or not) will be useless without a paid subscription. This will pretty much move all games towards a MMO model, even if they are small grouped like Diablo.

I could even see where a single player game may be subscription based where you have to be online and connected to a server and paying a subscription in order to play at all.

I guess as much as folks hate a software rental model, piracy may just be the thing to give the companies enough of a reason to switch to this model.

Folks will not like the model but they will have brought it on themselves.

Pirated games never used to make the news...

[DeTHZiT]

I remember a few years ago you would have NEVER heard of a pirated game make the news. And really, for all those in the know, games were routinely released in warez form weeks, sometimes months, before the actual release.

I think this is all a bunch of scare tactics by the media. Game companies know these sort of activities only have a marginal effect on their bottom lines. It's always been a constant. Hell, sometimes it's like free marketing.

Besides, most of the people who are into trading these leaked games are kids who can't afford to buy them anyways.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a good thing that games get pirated, but it's been happening since software was invented. Don't beleive the media hype, because sooner or later there's going to be a story about "The pandemic of software piracy".

Re:What Next?

[Austerity Empowers]

Agreed. Dongles do not work. Even the really expensive ones they use for CAD type tools.

Bottom line: software has to be decrypted on your own system in order to run or play. Your system cannot be trusted. There is the fundamental vulnerability. There is no way to fix this, you can simply rely on time/reward investment to discourage people from doing it. However for mass market commercial products, once a single person cracks it, it's open for everyone. All that money you blew on the dongles, sw licenses etc. is out the window.

In actuality, there are enough people cracking CAD tool licenses such that as a student I never had problems learning how to use the ultra expensive chip synthesis tools etc. My school couldn't afford them, but some school in China funded their kids to go break the license, and shared the results. Fortunately we had a few chinese ex-patriots willing to share the wealth. Not trying to justify this, just showing how even a small niche market can bypass even more complicated dongle systems profitably. (No American corporation could get away with this, there are too many hostile eyes involved even in a "secret" design).

The bottom line is if you make excellent software, you will make money on it, even with piracy. How do I know this? The software industry went from almost non-existant, around the time of my birth, to the huge, hopeless gargantuan that we know today. Piracy has been there all along, for all the same reasons. Before the internet there were pirate BBSs, before that there was the corner SW shop with the cash only business in the back room.

Re:Piracy is going to strengthen subscription mode

[Cederic]

Yeah, because companies that produce high quality games never make any money from them at all. Ever.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong - but if that does happen, it's due to corporate greed and not because of an inability to fund development through standard sales.

Whether the market stands for it is an interesting question.. I haven't played Rome Total War for a week - I'd be very resentful if I'd had to pay for a week's subscription to be unable to play it - especially since I am playing Battlefield Vietnam instead. Seeing as 'per use' payments are definitely not accepted by the mass market (notice all the MMORPGs charging flat rates) the average gamer can not and will not pay for multiple subscriptions just because he has several games that he hasn't finished playing yet. So it may well be that such a subscription model wont fly anyway..

MMORPGs are an interesting counter to my argument - they are indeed charging per-month subscriptions and making a lot of money (collectively) by doing so. However, they are all also continually evolving and adding new content, and also providing a compelling social experience - that social experience is fundamental to their product, and not present in a single-player game.

~Cederic

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

That is absolutely false. Man, I thought these type of "warez" myths died out years ago.

And 24-hours doesn't mean just one full day, you can play it for an hour a day for 3.5 weeks if you want.

I don't like to say this often, but you're a complete idiot.

Re:Good job.

[JaxGator75]

HaHaHa!

I haven't laughed that hard since I heard Halo2 in French...

Seriously, though, you "Right to Profit" people need a quick wake-up call to the real world. As the owner of a small business that was put under by dirty-dealing competitors, I can tell you that your "Right to Profit" never existed. You can do just like I did: follow all the rules, work hard and provide a valuable service at a fair price, only to be run out of town on a rail, broke and dejected, through no fault of your own. Right to Profit indeed...

As far as feeling bad and guilty consciences, you may have over-estimated the people of which you speak. The key is to NOT see the rest of the world through your tiny little eyes when you try to figure out how we're all thinking...

Re: if you want one, you have to pay for it. If it costs too much, don't buy it! It's luxury item, you don't need it! Spoken like a person who has never had to do without. Before you regale us with tales of that time you didn't get a new car for Graduation: save it. People who HAVE gone to bed hungry don't see your noble "Do Without" sentiment in the same light. When "Do Without" and "Take It Without Depriving Anyone Else of Anything" are your only options, we'll all be impressed when you chose to impose unnecessary restrictions on yourself.

Until then, I'll freely sample items for personal use, delete them when I'm done and buy the items I plan on either keeping forever, using in a professional endeavor or would normally buy anyway. All the games and DVDs and MP3s that I can't afford (I have legitimate reasons, but I don't owe you an explanation) are a different story. Spend your time and energy arresting those who sell "pirated" DVDs and games on eBay or the street corner. Those are criminals, and they don't even "play semantics".

Re:Clarification

[drinkypoo]

If you wouldn't have bought it, and the people who distribute it to wouldn't have bought it, then they aren't losing anything, but they are gaining publicity. To me the problem is that people are now proud of pirating software where once they at least tried to keep it on the QT.

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

You are denying them the profit they have a right to.

Great - another corporations-have-a-right-to-profit thinker. Corporations don't have a right to profit; they have a right to do business but whether they make profit depends on how they do it - it's not their guaranteed right that they will! They don't have a right to any sales revenue either if people decide not to buy their products.

This whole theft/copyright infringment argument is tiring, because the end result is that people are breaking the law.

So are the corporations. Who makes non-compete agreements? Enforces illegal trade restrictions? Lies with creative accounting practices to avoid paying equal share of taxes? Is a member of a cartel, and engages in price-fixing taking customers' money by illegal means?

How many times have those corporations' actions been discussed in the news recently compared to the mp3 music "thieves" and "pirates?" How many times has Congress proposed any legislation recently to combat the situation compared to what they have proposed and enacted to combat the "pirates?"

Gimme a break - next thing you'll tell me is that corporations have a right to break the law. Because we already know they have a right to bribe the Congress to enact new ones, making common sense illegal.

Theft is not the wrong word to use, it's just that the definition of the word is dated.

OK, maybe "theft" is the right word to use. After all, corporations in the entertainment industry alone have stolen 100s of millions if not billions in U.S. dollars over time from consumers using illegal means.

Look, I am no "piracy shop" supporter, and I don't know much about the Rockstar and its products or how all this applies in this case, but, for a general statement that you are making, having a one-sided view as if corporations' "rights" to profit are being violated is very ignorant of the whole situation.

Console or PC?

[Rich Klein]

A game being pirated doesn't really seem newsworthy to me, but if you're going to report it, then how about telling us which version was pirated? X-Box? PC?

Re:Clarification

[fucksl4shd0t]

nt

You are denying them the profit they have a right to.

Ah, another socialist? Since when do corporations (or anybody, for that matter) have a right to profit? By copying their game, you're not denying them their right to profit. They don't have that right to begin with. OTOH, if you copy the game, and then sell your copy, and don't pay any royalties, you will be committing copyright infringement.

Once upon a time, if money didn't change hands, no infringement had occurred. That's called "Fair Use". Copyright is supposed to temporarily secure (by creating) a person's right to commercially exploit their Creative Work on the free market. It is not supposed to prevent non-commercial uses of the word, and it protects some commercial uses (which is why we can include scene snippets from a feature film in a review if we wanted).

because the end result is that people are breaking the law.

If the law no longer represents the good of society and/or is no longer consistent with the intent of the law, and numerous attempts have been made to address the problems with the law and most/all have failed, what recourse would you suggest?

Just don't give it to anyone else, okay?

[Uninvited Guest]

Under US copyright law, it's not illegal for you to download this game. It is illegal for you to upload or transfer it to someone else. That's when you're infringing on copyrights. Yes, the publisher will lose money. Yes, their lawyers will be hopping mad. As long as you don't transfer the game to someone else, there's no crime committed. So, don't do it.

(Now, let's see if I can break my personal best for up and down mod points in the same post.)