GTA: San Andreas Leaked

Anonymous Coward cuts-and-pastes: "Less than a week after a pirated version of Halo 2 began appearing on the Web, another of the year's most sought after games has been stolen. Ironically, it also happens to be a game titled after a larcenous act itself. That's right. Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas has become the latest victim of piracy, with illegal copies of the game, its manual, and its cover appearing on various Web sites." Update: 10/21 13:54 GMT by Z : Rockstar adds some details to what we know about the crime in a press release covered by CVG.

Comments

It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[garcia]

"Downloading, possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, including making the game available on the internet, is theft." Then came this warning from the company: "We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

I take the virtual theft of guns, money, sex with hookers, cars, and other people's lives very seriously and I will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter once I get my hands on the game.

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[(SM) Spacemonkey]

The logic of "Think of the Children Types":

GTA teaches our kids to steal, so our kids steal GTA, which teaches our kids to steal, so our kids steal GTA, which teaches our kids to steal... etc

Quite obviously, this vicious cycle is Rockstar's fault.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[smittyoneeach]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

Are you missing a prepositional phrase between public and trying?

s/public trying/public, by irritating marketing departments trying

However, there is no version control system for language, other than ignoring these little boys who cry 'wolf'.
Similar flatus occurs when the legal system is used for advertising puproses. See: Paris Hilton...then again, don't.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[sorrowfloats]

Then came this warning from the company: "We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

Anyone wanna let Microsoft know that someone has substantively ripped off the text of their Halo 2-leak threat? "Microsoft takes the integrity of its intellectual property extremely seriously, and we are aggressively pursuing the source of this illegal act." http://www.gamespot.com/news/2004/10/14/news_61105 39.html/

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

And on the other side of the fence, we have the copyright violators (hmm, "pirates" is a lot less unwieldy), who continue the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to convince them that copying software is OK, because "it's not like we're actually stealing something".

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Downloading, possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, including making the game available on the internet, is theft."

So:

- Possession of the game is theft.
- Distribution of the game is theft.

Does that mean we're not allowed to buy it, nor are high-street shops allowed to sell it, once the game is officially released?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Appropriate subject, considering the "irony" mentioned in the summary is exclusively of the Morissettean variety.

Irony would be paying for a copy of a "Grand Theft" game (or "Steal This Book"). Getting it illegally is just a humorous coincidence.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

"Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs"

You *DO* know the english language is almost designed to incorporate new word uses over time, or are you not a linguist and just want to continually bombarding folks with the idea that you know more than most?

Hell, most languages do this. The Hebrew language goes back into its history to find unused or underused words to represent modern tech simply to avoid using language from outside of its realm and to keep the language pure. Many others do the same.

Do you really think the general public wants a new word for copyright infringing when most will look at it as Hey Why Don't They Just Say Theft Or Piracy, Because Thats What It Is. Other than the morons that take 1984 to heart and want to shape public perception by forcing the use of word choice to promote their lifestyles:

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.htm l

And you wonder why folks think RMS is a stinky hippy that wants to force everyone to his idea of society. He claims that he gives choice, all the while trying to shape the slash sheeple into his way of thinking by altering language and hopefully altering though because of it.

If we get away from thinking its theft, we can concentrate on calling it copyright infringement, which then sounds more like us v. THE MAN and thus the attitude starts to change.

I'm going to get modded to -5 for this but fuck it. You've personally derided my posts in the past for using words like theft and piracy and I'm sick of the fucking hippy element around here that can't learn to live and let live. I don't tell anyone else how they should live their lives, nor how to think, all I ask is that folks respect my personal properties which include any and all intellectual properties. I think this is all most content creators ask as well...

Oh wait, we can't use the word creator anymore either...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

You *DO* know the english language is almost designed to incorporate new word uses over time

Yeah, exactly - isn't Orwell required reading anymore in school?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Oddly_Drac]

"who continue the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to convince them that copying software is OK, because "it's not like we're actually stealing something"."

I missed that press release. Who are those people, or is this just unsophisticated smoke?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[kaleco]

The explanation is quite straight forward. It's lawyer-speak, and you can expect to see it standardised. Not always quite this similar, but it is no coincidence (or theft of MS' threats).

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Oddly_Drac]

"I'm sick of the fucking hippy element around here that can't learn to live and let live."

That's the fundamental basis of the 'fucking hippy element'. You may have meant something else.

"way of thinking by altering language"

He's just being fashionable. I think the rot started with 'By the people, for the people'. It later continued with the redefinition of 'defense' into 'bomb 'em first'.

"Oh wait, we can't use the word creator anymore either..."

Only as long as you don't apply it to a homocentric anthromorphic diety, or other such fictional construct. It's terribly crass and likely to get people backing away from you.

"You *DO* know the english language is almost designed"

You call it design, we call it evolution.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Aparently you can't use "content" either.

http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/words-to-avoid.htm l

Way to go written and other works of authorship copyright holder.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[teh Wang]

Indeed, but then Theft is a legal definition not a linguistic one.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Words have meanings which change over time, but that doesn't mean that people won't try to change them for selfish purposes - or that others should sit quietly by as it happens, because 'that's the evolution of language'.

I don't understand why it's OK in your eyes for one cartel (*AA) to attempt to assert its memes into the mainstream, but it's Evil when 'hippies' do the exact same thing? Isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander?

You can attempt to paint it as a black and white issue of theft vs. decency or morality vs. immorality, but the real fact is that copyrights and copycrimes are not binary issues with well-defined areas of Wrong and Right. People with vested interests in copyright - either in maintaining or abolishing it - may try to spin it in one way or another, as if it were such a simple issue, and both sides are right about some things. That doesn't make it an all-or-nothing proposition, though! But considering that this has been an American political issue for decades now, it isn't surprising that a complex topic has been reduced to 'True Romans versus Barbarians' - all American political issues are inevitably reduced to binary representation, as a matter of course.

In closing, both sides should ponder the oft-repeated words of Thomas Jefferson:

"It has been pretended by some, (and in England especially,) that inventors have a natural and exclusive right to their inventions, and not merely for their own lives, but inheritable to their heirs. But while it is a moot question whether the origin of any kind of property is derived from nature at all, it would be singular to admit a natural and even an hereditary right to inventors. It is agreed by those who have seriously considered the subject, that no individual has, of natural right, a separate property in an acre of land, for instance. By an universal law, indeed, whatever, whether fixed or movable, belongs to all men equally and in common, is the property for the moment of him who occupies it, but when he relinquishes the occupation, the property goes with it. Stable ownership is the gift of social law, and is given late in the progress of society. It would be curious then, if an idea, the fugitive fermentation of an individual brain, could, of natural right, be claimed in exclusive and stable property. If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it. Its peculiar character, too, is that no one possesses the less, because every other possesses the whole of it. He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. That ideas should freely spread from one to another over the globe, for the moral and mutual instruction of man, and improvement of his condition, seems to have been peculiarly and benevolently designed by nature, when she made them, like fire, expansible over all space, without lessening their density in any point, and like the air in which we breathe, move, and have our physical being, incapable of confinement or exclusive appropriation. Inventions then cannot, in nature, be a subject of property. Society may give an exclusive right to the profits arising from them, as an encouragement to men to pursue ideas which may produce utility, but this may or may not be done, according to the will and convenience of the society, without claim or complaint from anybody. Accordingly, it is a fact, as far as I am informed, that England was, until we copied her, the only country on earth which ever, by a general law, gave a legal right to the exclusive use of an idea. In some other countries it is sometimes done, in a great case, and by a special and personal act, but, generally speaking, other nations have thought that these monopolies produce more embarrassment than advantage to society..."

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[kusanagi374]

Well, all companies now rely on FUD to stop people from pirating their products, so that BS is nothing new.

Now, something strange IMO: "... possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas...is theft" - What, buying and selling the legal copy is theft too? Oh no, everybody run away and tell mommy mom!!

Oh, and according to the Troll EULA, I agree with your message.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

i wont shell out 50 euros for most games or 20 euros for a dvd

if it was 10 for a game and 5 a dvd I would

how comes a VHS of the same movie is only 10 euros? It takes a lot more effort to produce one and the content is the same crap

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

Oh I think Orwell is well read these days, but the current crop of kids really aren't taught to think much more than is printed on the page. This is one of the reasons we see emoticons and textual smilies because folks are not trained to even read sarcasm on the internet (my above post was meant to be read at face value as the morons won't get it otherwise). They need a wink and a nudge to get the slightest idea that it might be representing something other than what is on the page.

As such, folks are reading 1984 and others as simply good ideas. Hey! It can't be used for anything other than that. The newspeak isn't bad, its just embraced differently. I betcha we could use this in our own little groups and then we can force the noncool kids into using it. Yeah! And we should ban showers too!!! As everyone looks around at Stallman and shakes their head in disbelief. I guess some ideas aren't catching on so fast.

Again this is a troll. At least for the folks that can't read and want to be spoon fed ideas. Mark it as you feel fit because this is your club these days. I'm no longer one of the cool kids with a mid 4 digit UID (I still wish I would have kept my old nick as this low 5 digit one sucks...)

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[bigman2003]

Actually, if I had mod points right now, I would give you a + 2000 insightful.

I used to think that just about everything that Stallman (RMS if you're a weenie) writes is a big packet of crap. The article you linked to was some of the most eye-opening proof of my theory yet.

I like the way that most of the article tells his soldiers in the war on economic independence to avoid pigeon-holing their software. Yet proprietary software should be called 'handcuffware'.

I just hope that some of the people in power who he is trying to sway (not his followers, but REAL leaders) get a chance to read his articles, and see him for what he really is. You summed it up very well:

RMS is a stinky hippy that wants to force everyone to his idea of society. He claims that he gives choice, all the while trying to shape the slash sheeple into his way of thinking by altering language and hopefully altering though because of it.


Thanks very much for the link.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new here.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

copying software is OK, because "it's not like we're actually stealing something".

Presenting an argument as if it were ridiculous, as a way of countering it, is a fallacy. So let's be explicit: what is your specific logical response to this argument?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

You *DO* know the english language is almost designed to incorporate new word uses over time, or are you not a linguist and just want to continually bombarding folks with the idea that you know more than most?

Do you really think the general public wants a new word for copyright infringing when most will look at it as Hey Why Don't They Just Say Theft Or Piracy, Because Thats What It Is. Other than the morons that take 1984 to heart and want to shape public perception by forcing the use of word choice to promote their lifestyles

I know this wasn't directed at me but I'm gonna jump in here anyway. English, like most other languages, is evolving over time as new words are introduced and others fall into disuse. Generally this is not a problem as new words are required to describe new things/concepts and older words may describe things/concepts that are no longer useful or relevant.

I agree that sometimes new meanings are attached to words that already used to mean something else. This is perfectly acceptable for most words where meaning can be derived from context. But, when we are talking about legal language, or words used in a legal context, we have to restrict ourselves to very specific definitions. "Piracy" is used to describe a specific violation (or group of violations)of the law while "theft" describes another. They are not interchangeable in the legal context. The same is true for "copyright infringement". This is a specific violation of law that is separate from both theft and piracy.

The definition of these terms aren't kept separate because there is some plot by the "man" to restrict your freedom of expression. They are kept separate in order to prevent chaos within the legal system and to maintain some sort of societal order.

If this was not the case we might see this situation:

Person 1: I want to charge that guy for "theft", and by theft I mean the guy walked on my lawn.

Cop: That would be trespassing.

Person 1: Not in my world buddy

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[goldspider]

"i wont shell out 50 euros for most games or 20 euros for a dvd"

Then don't. I wouldn't pay $600 for the latest version of Adobe Photoshop either, but that does not give me the right to simply copy it from P2P.

You might want to wait till you can get a used copy of the games/DVDs you want. That's the honest way to get them if you don't want to pay full price.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

"That's the fundamental basis of the 'fucking hippy element'. You may have meant something else."

You know, I'd attended a dozen dead shows in my life. My mom had the hippy ideas, and a lot of my friends were hippies growing up.

This is no more the ideal of hippydom than George Bush is bombing Iraq to free people from the tyranny of Saddam.

Hippies want to rule the world. They want to force us to believe how they believe. They want nothing more than to annihilate thought different than their own. I've *NEVER* met a hippy that was representative of the ideal that wasn't 100% identical to those around him. You find this in the Republican Party these days too. People want to be led and someone is obviously doing the leading...and more than that, they want uniformity. Uniformity frees one from having to think outside the lines, man. Sure, their coloring books might not have lines, but the minute someone suggests putting them in, they are demonized.

Their society is no different than the one we live in today, and more than that, its just as damaging from a progressive standpoint.

As for evolution -- its not evolution if folks *HAVE* to shape its existence. Its one thing for ideas and constructs to show up and be accepted, its another to go out of your way to enforce the usage of it...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[xSauronx]

no, wait, its my fault.

i started this mess.

Oops.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Ohreally_factor]

I want to charge you with copy trespass, and by copy trespass I mean that you made me spit my coffee.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both sides are bending the truth and trying to sway public opinion. FUD rules the day.

One side is using words in a technically incorrect manner in an attempt to make people realize how serious their situation is.
The other side is actually breaking the law, in a crime that does have a victim, but at least they don't incorrectly use the verb "steal".

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Sierpinski]

Maybe they need to increase some security measures in their infrastructure... it seems that someone inside, with access to the game (if I'm reading the article correctly) has started all this...

They need to be more like government contractors: each group works on a small part, with nobody knowing too much about the others, until release date, its all just slapped together with no testing and marketed.

Then, they would get to charge for "updates" and "feature expansions" (ie bug fixes) and make even more money.

Maybe I'm in the wrong business.... anyone want to finance me a million dollars to start my own Highly Secure, Profitable Game Company?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

You mean like your intentionally misleading statements regarding the FBI? Since you aren't a fan of law enforcement doing their jobs, you'll probably want this GTA piracy thing to slide as well.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

The common usage of language and law seldom intersect.

Stealing cable from the cableguys is listed as Theft Of Services under most state statues in the US.

This is even when you live in a house with the cable wired to a box on your property and a filter was put between the lines to keep you from receiving signal.

On your property, if you were to remove the filter, and wire everything back up the same way, ensuring that the filter was undamaged and put back into this same box, you could be charged with Theft Of Service.

Nothing was taken in such a manner that it deprived anyone else of its usage, and it was on your property, but it is still theft under most US State regs...

Then again, I don't expect folks to be lawyers and use lawyer terms every time something can be described in plain ol' english that everyone knows and understands.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[lowe0]

Simple. If you create a work, as the author, you have the right to grant use of it to whoever you choose, under whatever terms both parties agree to. If you simply take a copy, you deprive the author of their right to offer a license to you (since you simply grant yourself license, without commensurate consideration to the author).

Now, if we could figure out the actual value of the portion of copyright that applies to a single individual (instead of just taking the price of a license at retail), we'd have a real idea of the cost of copyright violation.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[JaredOfEuropa]

Presenting an argument as if it were ridiculous, as a way of countering it, is a fallacy. So let's be explicit: what is your specific logical response to this argument?

OK, I'll bite.

Copying this game isn't stealing in the usual sense of the word, like taking a physical asset from the owner. But you are potentially still causing them damage. Perhaps you would not have bought the game... but you're happy to share the copy of this game with your friends, and your friends' friends, some of which might be potential customers. Suppose everyone obtained their copy from a friend instead of buying it... even though no-one actually stole anything from Rockstar, they'd get no revenue from a product they probably spent several million on to develop. Many people counter this argument with a rationalisation "Oh, I would not have bought this game anyway, it's all the others causing the damage". Well, I can certainly believe that you wouldn't buy the game for $50 when you can get it for free... which is why you are still causing damage to the company by passing the copy onwards to others, thereby convincing them not to pay money for a legit copy.

Copyright is a rather artificial construct. Why would we allow publishers control over their work, if that work could be made to benefit the whole world without any additional cost to the publisher? Answer: because it still takes money to create the work, and publishers should be able to make a profit on it. Only a communist would demand that publishers and artists work for nothing... and that is what you are demanding when you state that it is OK to copy software. That, or you think that others should pay for the content you enjoy for free...

Of course there are reasons why copying actually helps rather than hurts: people can have a free preview, it's like free advertising for the publisher, etc. etc. But if you copy something and continue to use it, I have no problems calling you a thief of the artist and of those who paid for their legitimate copy.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

As the fortunes program keeps telling me:
A little bit of inaccuracy can save a lot of explanation.

One of the things that makes nerds look bad is that we often don't know the proper meta-level for speaking. Most conversation is meant to convey general meaning but not specific technical detail. Even in meetings that I go to where specific technical detail needs to be discussed, the non-technical people seem bored and annoyed when I want to clarify some point of language to make sure we are agreeing to the same thing. The engineers involved don't get bothered by it, because they know the distinction that I am trying to make. Lawyers care about the difference between theft, piracy, and copyright infringement. Most other people, most of the time, don't give a rat's ass. They know what you mean sufficiently for their interest.

Compare: Do we get up in arms every time some new worm is described in the media as a "virus"? They are different. We know that. Does it matter? Not to most people.

To counter myself, the problem is twofold. One, they are trying to use a loaded term in place of a neutral one. "Theft" has a big fnord! next to it, while "Copyright infringement" doesn't. Two, what word do you use for traditional theft, when theft can mean so many things? Will it lose its loaded quality, so nobody cares about theft anymore?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Random832]

The other side is actually breaking the law, in a crime that does have a victim, but at least they don't incorrectly use the verb "steal".

You misspelled "tort"

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Simple. If you create a work, as the author, you have the right to grant use of it to whoever you choose, under whatever terms both parties agree to. If you simply take a copy, you deprive the author of their right to offer a license to you (since you simply grant yourself license, without commensurate consideration to the author).

It's hardly "simple" - copy rights have been a complicated and contentious issue throughout history. But the fact that you had to precede your rationalization with it speaks volumes about your confidence in this argument.

Your first major error is a common one: you conflate natural rights with IP rights, without justification. Which is ridiculous, considering that IP is an artifice existing outside of natural rights, expressly created to account for the natural void. IOW - it's a circular justification.

Your second error is a semantic one - also common. Copying isn't taking, it's duplication. And guess what? There's no direct deprivation involved. At all. X person copying Y person's work doesn't deprive Y of the right to offer a license to X - it just creates illicit competition (meaning that X has less motivation to accept the offered license. Y still has the right to offer it, though - that hasn't been taken away).

Your final error": there is no detectable "cost" of copyright violation, because any "deprivation" is necessarily potential - not "actual". The only way to accurately determine potential losses in a copycrime situation would be with the cooperation of the copycriminal. The only way to determine "actual" losses in a copycrime situation would be with a time machine.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

Stealing cable from the cableguys is listed as Theft Of Services under most state statues in the US.

Well perhaps that would be because in the case of theft of service, where one party is deprived of due consideration in exchange for service, theft is occuring.

On your property, if you were to remove the filter, and wire everything back up the same way, ensuring that the filter was undamaged and put back into this same box, you could be charged with Theft Of Service.

That is not suprising - if you commit theft you can be charged with theft. This not exactly earth shaking news...

Nothing was taken in such a manner that it deprived anyone else of its usage, and it was on your property, but it is still theft under most US State regs...

In the case of cable the recipient of the service agrees to give due consideration (payment) in exchange for service. Taking the service without giving due consideration is theft.

Then again, I don't expect folks to be lawyers and use lawyer terms every time something can be described in plain ol' english that everyone knows and understands.

The problem with "plain ol' english" is that it is often "plain ol' wrong" usage. At the very least it can be misleading.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

This awful turn of events is preventing me from sleeping. Well, hopefully not many people will actually find copies. I mean, so far there are only three torrents that I've seen. But more could be out there. Many more.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

If they want to charge you an unreasonable rate for bread, milk, water, fuel to heat your house, or any other essentials of life, you might be justified in your argument.

If you don't like the price they charge for a luxury item, then don't fucking buy it. If you aren't willing to pay what they want to charge for it, then tough. I have no pity for you. If you download it illegally, you are a criminal and deserve your punishment.

Any questions about "why do they charge X" will be referred to an introductory economics book. You know how Slashdot likes to criticize people for not having an elementary knowledge about (computers/network security/science/whatever the article is about)? Well, here we can criticize you for not knowing dick about capitalism. Short form: The seller sets the price wherever they damn well please. If they set it too high, people won't buy their product, and they won't make money. If they set it too low, they'll sell a lot, but they won't make much money due to low margins. Selling price has nothing to do with production cost (other than price > cost for sustainability). DVD is worth more to the consumer, so they can charge more for it.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[MyHair]

I'm pretty sure somebody used this copy before I downloaded it off of p2p.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[dextroz]

"...piracy is becoming an increasingly common and serious problem for both gamers and the games industry..."

WTF??? Since when did piracy ever become a problem for gamers!? It only helps in letting them know when game makers are lying through their a$$ about release dates like for Half-Life 2...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[whopis]

i wont shell out 50 euros for most games or 20 euros for a dvd how comes a VHS of the same movie is only 10 euros? It takes a lot more effort to produce one and the content is the same crap

Actually, the content is not the same crap, it is lower quality crap that degrades quicker. That is why it costs less.

The sale price of a product is not merely a function of how much it costs to produce plus the profit the company wants to make. It is determined by how much the paying consumer is willing to fork over for it. Prices are determined by what the market will bear.

If the consumer considered VHS tapes to be equal (in quality, usuability, etc...) to DVDs, then very few people would pay twice as much for a DVD as for a VHS tape. But they are not considered equal, therefore people are willing to pay a premium for the higher quality product.

If you make a new product that is better, faster, and cheaper than the existing one, you are going to make lots of sales... And you don't always have to pass the cheaper part on to the customers.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

Ok, you seem to agree with this statement.

Then piracy *IS* considered a theft of services under your definition. The recipient did not exchange the appropriate consideration before taking the software...thus it is theft.

A pure and rational conclusion using the words in your post and the agreeance with my post.

Piracy is theft. Pure and simple...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Both sides are bending the truth and trying to sway public opinion. FUD rules the day.

One side is using words in a technically incorrect manner in an attempt to make people realize how serious their situation is.
The other side is actually breaking the law, in an offense that does have a victim, but at least they don't incorrectly use the term "steal" (and "crime").

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[stanmann]

NO, with cable, you can't "steal service" if the pipe is closed at the street on "public" property, you are "stealing service" if you are "expanding your channel selection" without modifying your contract with the company.

IF I do not and have never had a contract with the cable company, but somehow it gets into my house, ALL they can do is turn it off.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[-noefordeg-]

"You might want to wait till you can get a used copy of the games/DVDs you want. That's the honest way to get them if you don't want to pay full price"

I thought a lot of software/movie EULAs didn't allow for resales.
Wouldn't that be just as illegal as copying it?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

Then piracy *IS* considered a theft of services under your definition. The recipient did not exchange the appropriate consideration before taking the software...thus it is theft.

If by "piracy" you mean copyright infringement then no, I don't think it is theft. (Actually, even if you really mean piracy, it is still not theft.)

If I buy a copy of Photoshop then I exchange consideration (payment) for a copy of the software for my personal use. I can make a backup copy of this software if I want - no problem. If I make multiple copies and give them to my friends, I am commiting copyright infingement. I don't have the right to make copies of the software for distribution.

However, my friends are not guilty of theft for taking the software. They have no relationship with the company who originally created the software and made no agreement to exchange consideration for their own copy. Therefore they are without guilt under the law.

Do you see how that is different from actual theft (like in the cable tv example above)?

A pure and rational conclusion using the words in your post and the agreeance with my post.

Piracy is theft. Pure and simple...

That's only rational if you don't understand the difference between theft and copyright infringement.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Then don't. I wouldn't pay $600 for the latest version of Adobe Photoshop either, but that does not give me the right to simply copy it from P2P.

An enormous number of people are commenting on what people have and haven't the "right" to do, but I've yet to see anyone back up their statements with a supporting theory of rights - the going assumptions seem to be "law determines rights" (it's the other way around, guys) and "my gut feeling determines rights" (which might be useful for you subjectively, but the buck stops there).

I don't mean to be glib, but what about the idea that "Might makes Right"? It's just as defensible a theory of rights as any else that have been offered so far - and it logically justifies the morality of copying.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[incom]

If the "might makes right" doctrine is good enough for the US government, it's good enough for me. So why should I voluntarily handicap myself? (not saying I commit piracy, purely hypothetical).

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[BlackHawk-666]

Hahah, the fools. I'm straight to the copyright office now to assert my rights over the boilerplate text that laywers use on their contracts and letters. Those bastards will have to pay me eveytime they say "without prejudice" now...oh the delicious, but not quite ironicness of it all.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[garett_spencley]

I want to extend on that...

The fact that all these kids copy games makes me really pissed. I don't mind much when it's music .. because there's hidden benefits to the artist of sharing music (I'm a musician so I can make that statement confidently). But the gaming industry is fragile. It's like a mini hollywood, only it's value hasn't quite been realized yet.

Kids love video games. I'm an adult and I still love video games. I'm looking forward to San Andreas .. but I'll probably wait for the PC version since I don't own nor care much for the PS2.

The thing is .. and most slashdotters know this I think .. it does take millions of dollars to produce a game like San Andreas. GTA III was the first commercially successful game to throw you into a complete 3D world .. why were they first ? We've had the technology for a few years .. why did it take Rockstar until the late 90's to produce one ? Because it's too fucking expensive and the returns aren't guaranteed.

Game theft threatens the gaming industry more than any kind other kind of 'piracy' (god I hate that word). If kids want to be able to play new games in the future that really push the envelope, and aren't just cheesy knock-offs of the games that were successful 5 years ago .. then they better stop biting the hand that feeds them. ... because pretty soon the investors won't be there to throw their money into future development.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Megaweapon]

So if the "might" of many people downloading copyrighted software justifies the action, can't the "might" of huge corporations knocking down your door and taking your computer be justified as well?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's so "natural" about conventional property rights such as "real" estate? Says the native american.

IP is no less an artifice than money.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

Most other people, most of the time, don't give a rat's ass. They know what you mean sufficiently for their interest.

I think this is the problem. People don't care to know what the actual definitions of words are - but they still feel free to throw them around in a legal context as if they did understand them. Obviously it is much simpler to say that theft=priacy=copyright infringement - but it does a disservice to us all to allow this to happen.

Companies who have an interest in the area are keen to make each of these violations equal under the law. Half the battle in this case is to get the public to use the terms interchangably such that it is generally accepted that they are the same thing. In this way, even though theft and copyright infringement are not the same people will *think they are* which helps cut down greatly on the amount of copyright infringement as people are scared of being charged with theft.

If most people agree that theft=piracy=copyright infringement it also makes it easier to have the law changed such that this really is the case. It's scary really...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[The Only Druid]

No, you're being intentionally daft, which means you're a troll. Clearly, the point was that since there are precisely zero legal means to possess GTA: SA at this point, if you possess it then you must have stolen it. There is no reasonable way to interpret this to suggest that after the legal release of the game, that possession of it will be criminal.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Quit making fantasyland law up. It's illegal and it's called "Theft of Service", contract or no.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

No, copying software is OK because there is no reason for it not to be OK, except for the law that you may freely disagree with. There is nothing wrong with copying software, because there never was anything. If someone wants to argue otherwise, they need proof. What exactly is bad about copying software? That developers are not getting paid? First, they are, and second, they can get another job. That no new games are made? Well, only that a lot of games are made and games improve every year. That it is wrong to get something for free? Well, whoever says it, please shove that capitalistic crap back into your ass, because I respectfully disagree.

Summary: Copying software is not theft and there is simply nothing wrong with it.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[syberanarchy]

Newsflash - game industry profits *exceeded* the movie industry's a long time ago.

EA threatened by piracy? Sony? Rockstar? Microsoft? No. Doom 3, Halo 2, GTA, and Half Life will all be huge sellers regardless of a few thousand kids with mod chips d/ling them.

The amount of piracy in proportion to the total installed base of consoles is so microscopic as to be negligible.(sp)

PC devs might have a better argument, but again, this is what happens when you gouge the consumer - 80 bucks for HL 2 with CS source? No thanks, assholes.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

I don't play by your rules, thank you very much. If I don't have the means to buy it, but need it, I will copy it. And before you ask, I won't steal a TV from the store, because that would be theft and would deprive someone of that TV.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry you failed to understand my previous post. My point in posting Might makes Right, as should have been glaringly obvious by the disclaimer that immediately preceded it, was to make a Devil's Advocate analogy (demonstrating a flaw through extrapolation of principle) - not to seriously argue for it as a viable rights theory.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Politburo]

1 sentence is "substantively"?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Your subject line is flawed, a free ride when you've already paid isn't ironic, its just crappy. But Alannis had the last laugh after all because it was ironic she made a song called Ironic that wasn't really ironic. :)

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

Suppose everyone obtained their copy from a friend instead of buying it...

Yeah, yeah, yeah... Suppose your grandma had a cock - then she would have been a granddad, wouldn't she? We are talking real world here, not some imaginary netherland. And in real world games are made and they are sold. You can't harm Electronic Arts, Adobe or Microsoft by pirating their products, no matter how much you try.

Copyright is a rather artificial construct.
It's also rather old, so most people don't remember the reasons for its existence.

Answer: because it still takes money to create the work, and publishers should be able to make a profit on it.
Nope. Publishers should not be able to do anything. It's that people should be able to get more public domain games, and copyright might influence publishers into funding more such games (that become public domain after the copyright expires). Developers and publishers have no right to profit, not right at all, except in as much as customers will voluntarily pay them. If I don't want to support Rockstar, this is not your business, this is not govenment's, FBI's or BSA's business - this is strictly between me and Rockstar - I either pay them or I don't.

Only a communist would demand that publishers and artists work for nothing... and that is what you are demanding when you state that it is OK to copy software.

First, there is nothing wrong with communism. There was a thriving community of authors, film directors, musicians, etc. in the Soviet Union. Not surprisingly, everyone in the world could legally copy their work for free, just like USSR was able to freely copy and publish foreign works.

Second, noone "demands" that Rockstar works (BTW, why you keep saying that publishers work - are you "working" for one?) for free. It's free market - they can work if they believe they can sell enough copies. If they can't, they don't have too. But please, don't demand that I pay money to publishers and artists - I don't necessarily give a shit about them.

Of course there are reasons why copying actually helps rather than hurts: people can have a free preview, it's like free advertising for the publisher, etc. etc. But if you copy something and continue to use it, I have no problems calling you a thief of the artist and of those who paid for their legitimate copy.

All reasons you list are irrelevant. People may copy products simply because it helps THEM. Everyone should have free access to knowledge, art and other types of information for free and without artificial limitations. This has nothing to do with being a thief - after all, aren't you stealing the letters from the Latin alphabet, you cleptolingo scum?

OK, I'll bite.
Bite me instead.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Hatta]

"i wont shell out 50 euros for most games or 20 euros for a dvd"

Then don't. I wouldn't pay $600 for the latest version of Adobe Photoshop either, but that does not give me the right to simply copy it from P2P.

If you cannot pay for photoshop there are two possibilities. First, you can sit at home with no photoshop. Adobe gets no money. Second, you can download photoshop and benefit. Adobe still gets no money. No one has been harmed by going from the first condition to the second condition, and you have benefited. I see no rational reason why something that harms none and benefits some should be considered illegal, immoral, or unethica.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[lowe0]

Doesn't the author have a right to control who is allowed to use their work? Doesn't the author have the right to insist upon compensation as a term of use? A copyright violation takes away that control from the author. That's what's being deprived in this situation.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[drew]

copying software is not theft, but it is copyright infringement and therefore illegal. you are free to believe that copying software it is not morally wrong, and you are free to believe that the law wrong. however, regardless of what you believe, it is still illegal, and unless the law is changed or repealed, you can get in significant trouble for it regardless of whether you believe it to be morally right or wrong.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[diggum]

Continuing the Copyrightorwrong idea, could piracy be seen, at some level, as protest against the corruption of the copyright system? If I pirate a Disney DVD, could that be seen as an effective F-you to Disney for their manipulation of copyright laws in recent years? Laws which preserved their copyright for a specific amount of time to ensure they make a sufficient profit from their R&D, yet made those works available to the public domain at the end of their fair cycle? Are the lawbooks for sale to anyone with a financial interest in changing them, regardless of history or the original intent of the law itself?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Potential damage relies on lack of honor. What fucked up society allows kids to grow up without a sense of honor?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[ic3p1ck]

Damit where are my mod points when I need them!!!

Well said!

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

But what if something made with that copy of Photoshop gets published?

Have fun with the Adobe lawyers if they find out you're making a profit with their copied software.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

It should be considered illegal because the standard to consider something illegal is whether there's a law against it, which there is.

Whether any action at all is "immoral" or "unethical" is a matter of debate, as no absolute standard for either exists. Kant would certainly say it's immoral based on the categorical imperative; Nietzsche would probably say it's ok to copy the software, and then go to Adobe's corporate headquarters and burn it down and rape all of the women just because you felt like it. Your favorite moral philosophy may vary.

I personally think it's fairly obvious that if everyone agreed that it's ok to get software without paying for it, and it wasn't illegal to do so, no one at all would ever pay for commercial software and the companies that produce it would stop doing so. Again, whether you think that would be good or bad is a matter of personal philosophy, but I've used both Photoshop and the Gimp and I have to say the commercial product is more enjoyable to use.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[WWE-TicK]

Yeah ... why should the people who developed the software be compensated for their work anyway.

That whole concept ... being paid to provide goods or services ... is completely ridiculous!

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

And why should you get it for free while others pay for it? Simply because they can pay for it? That's horseshit. I suppose you support indefinite welfare for people that simply have no interest in finding a job either.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

Agreed. And i won't pay 65,000 for a new Hummer H2 (for so many reasons), but that doesn't give me the right to jack someone outta their car and drive it down the road.....

or maybe the message that GTA is sending me is that I should steal the hummer...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't the author have a right to control who is allowed to use their work?

Until the point of publication, sure. After that? Well, if nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of every one, and the receiver cannot dispossess himself of it.

A copyright violation takes away that control from the author.

As the control is artificially granted by copyright law to begin with, this is tautologous.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

RTF US Code. Title 17, section 506, which covers criminal copyright violations.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[OblvnDrgn]

I thought a lot of software/movie EULAs didn't allow for resales.
Wouldn't that be just as illegal as copying it?

In short? No. Although just as illegal is sort of a tricky phrase. The thrust of it is that violating a EULA, which has its own sketchy legal standing, will get you in trouble with the license holder who will probably then sue you. Even without the existence of a EULA, copying a copyrighted work such as a game or movie is illegal. There's also the First Sale Doctrine, which of course may or may not be valid anymore itself.

In any case, assuming you're talking about the USA here, by necessity I am ethnocentric when talking about law, copying a piece of software is always a crime, reselling a piece of software could be a crime, probably is a license violation, and may be completely legal. Therefore, probabilistically speaking if nothing else, copying it is more illegal.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Maudib]

Can we stop and consider for a moment that maybe

(A)It is in fact stealing

(B)In some cases not only is that ok, its actually good.

Im not going to throw out names here, but I do believe that if a company is causing me direct harm through illegal actions, or through actions that are known to subvert the integrity of those articles that enshrine my freedom, then stealing from them is a VALID FORM OF SELF DEFENSE.

Ok, maybe not rockstar. But msft? TW? Sony? RIAAs/MPAAs/That software group, they are evil. They need to be destroyed. Theft isnt wrong, its self defense. Anything that takes money out of their pockets, forces them to spend money, or misdirects their energies is a Good Thing. This is a war of information, and the digital resistance is allowed to steal.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

Ok, say I run some cable from my house next door, to provide cable service to a neighbor who never had a relationship with the cable company. Under the statutes, he is guilty of "theft", even if he never agreed to pay the cable company for their service.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[WWE-TicK]

> Developers and publishers have no right to
> profit

As somebody who works as a software developer professionally, all I gotta say to you in response to this is "FUCK YOU" followed by a "KISS MY ASS".

> except in as much as customers will
> voluntarily pay them.

Oh ... but isn't it always voluntary? Nobody is holding a gun to your head forcing you to shell out money, is there? If you don't like the price, look elsewhere. If nobody provides the same thing for the price you're looking for, either do it yourself or suck it up and pay the price.

> But please, don't demand that I pay money to
> publishers and artists

That's fine as long as you don't go ahead and use their work without paying for it (assuming the developer wants you to pay for it). If you don't want to pay, then don't use it.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[OblvnDrgn]

Not the OP, but I'll comment. I accept your rationale that the publisher should not be able to do anything. They have no right to make a profit, they only have the right to have created something, not something most people would define as a right but we have to start somewhere. I won't even call it theft. Although while we're here, saying we're stealing the letters from the Latin alphabet -- created by no one person -- is a bit silly. A good example is why you can't copy chapters out of Return of the King, but you can write in Elvish. (Or whatever Elvish is called.. I never actually read it)

In any case, here's where your argument breaks down a bit:
If I don't want to support Rockstar, this is not your business, this is not govenment's, FBI's or BSA's business - this is strictly between me and Rockstar - I either pay them or I don't.

I accept that. You have that choice, except that you left off half of it. You can either choose to pay them and receive their good, or you can choose not to, and you don't. What I want to know is where your right to add a third choice, to not pay them and to receive their good, comes from? The closest thing to a rationale that I can find is a bit about everyone being supposed to have free access to all knowledge and art, which is rather more a conclusion than a reason, don't you think?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[DMadCat]

No, copying software is OK because there is no reason for it not to be OK, except for the law that you may freely disagree with. There is nothing wrong with copying software, because there never was anything.

Then I can copy your bank account number? How about your social security number, can I copy that too?
I'm baffled by your logic that "there never was anything". By that token I should be allowed to break into your computer and copy anything I want because nothing there exists physically. Once I have my rightful copy I should be allowed to do with that as I please including distributing it to friends. That's fair use right? If you want to argue otherwise you need proof...

That developers are not getting paid? First, they are, and second, they can get another job. That no new games are made? Well, only that a lot of games are made and games improve every year.

Those developers are getting paid for the time they spend developing software. It isn't a one shot deal and that's it. It's a JOB. Certainly they've already been paid for the game you're stealing but when the company that employs those developers loses money on a product they've technically already paid for they either have to start laying people off or possibly even go out of business. By your logic, all of the clerks at the grocery store have already been paid so I should be able to just take what food I want.

That it is wrong to get something for free? Well, whoever says it, please shove that capitalistic crap back into your ass, because I respectfully disagree.

It's not wrong to get something for free. It's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you and that wasn't freely given to you.
And something tells me you probably don't do anything "respectfully".

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[MyHair]

I personally think it's fairly obvious that if everyone agreed that it's ok to get software without paying for it, and it wasn't illegal to do so, no one at all would ever pay for commercial software and the companies that produce it would stop doing so.

Then why do people buy Red Hat and Suse when it is legally and socially acceptable to get them for free? Why has Red Hat released so much code under GPL? (Above and beyond modifications to GPL products; like Cygwin and eCos.) Why did Suse (well, Novell) GPL YaST when it was their differentiating factor? Why did Netscape open source Mozilla and why did Star Office open source OOo?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[CloudsSpaz]

Does nobody realize that posts like these significantly promote piracy of these games? Just how many people do you think saw the news on an RSS feed and then immediately headed to Suprnova? Not that Slashdot is to blame necessarily, but it seems to me that trying to keep the event more hidden from the public would be more effective than posting huge "Wanted: Dead or Alive- Code Monkey Thieves" messages all over the web.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Skraut]

There are several other possibilities. You could buy Photoshop elements for much less, Adobe benefits. You could use the GIMP, and Open Source benefits.

What you are doing is using a piece of software you have no business using. Adobe is in the business of making money, and what you are doing is depriving them of the opportunity of making a sale.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[skarmor]

Well, the statutes will be different from state to state and obviously I don't have a copy of them in front of me. That said, I doubt very much that what you described would be considered theft in any state.

It would most likely be considered unauthorized distribution on the part of the cable subscriber. Now, some states have included unauthorized distribution as a part of the violation of law that is called "theft of service". Others have not. Keep in mind that this is a specifically defined violation of the law called "theft of service" and as such is not the same as "theft". If we want to include copyright infrignement in our definition of theft, or create a new offense called "theft of intellectual property" which includes copyright infringement, it could probably be done.

All I am saying is that as it stands copyright infringement is not theft. I personally would like things to stay that way while many companies would like that to change.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

No "FUCK YOU."

This is one of the largest problems with USA.

Capitalism is dead. Corporationism lives.

Where did this belief that you ahve a right to a profit come from? That's not capitalism. You have the right to attempt to make a profit and nothing more.

Right to a profit is the same as saying "Give me free shit."

And if you think about it for more than 3 seconds you'd realize that the above is _not_ a semantic issue.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Its their product, so dont fucking buy it if you dont like the price.

Call it theft, piracy, liberation or whatever little label makes you think its OK but whenever IP rights are used to protect OSS its the same thing.

The hypocrisy on /. has reached new heights recently....

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[GutBomb]

Then why do people buy Red Hat and Suse when it is legally and socially acceptable to get them for free? Why has Red Hat released so much code under GPL? (Above and beyond modifications to GPL products; like Cygwin and eCos.) Why did Suse (well, Novell) GPL YaST when it was their differentiating factor? Why did Netscape open source Mozilla and why did Star Office open source OOo?

Why? Mindshare of course.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Downloading, possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, including making the game available on the internet, is theft." Then came this warning from the company: "We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

Well, they'll pursue it diligently until I pick up enough stars, change my clothes or drive into an auto painting garage.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[another_mr_lizard]

"But please, don't demand that I pay money to publishers and artists - I don't necessarily give a shit about them."

Fine, dont use their products then or deprive them of a potential sale of their product. b

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah and I'm sure your one of the commanders of the digital resistance. Mom's basement makes a great base of operations.

When you've liberated all the existing software out there lets see how we all get on with just the contents of Sourceforge and Tux Racer.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[th3space]

"Then don't. I wouldn't pay $600 for the latest version of Adobe Photoshop either, but that does not give me the right to simply copy it from P2P."

except that they still aren't getting their 'hard earned money' from people buying used copies...movies, games, books, software, music are only sold 'once' as far as the producer of whichever product is concerned...resales of used goods give money to one person/company only, the one from whom it was purchased.

seems kind of like, I don't know, piracy that costs you money...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[JaxGator75]

Because car-jacking is exactly the same as downloading files.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Maudib]

Ironicly I write software for one of the bad guys. But I am true to principle in that I havent bought a CD since 1999.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[lowe0]

Who's going to keep creating these ideas if the first jerk that comes along starts handing it out to everyone?

On top of that, we're no longer talking about just any old idea. We're talking about the product of a multi-million dollar investment and 2 years of effort. This isn't grandma's cookie recipe.

There's going to be a point where it doesn't make sense to spend the kind of time or money it takes to develop a major game when everyone's just going to steal it.

You could say, "Well, then, it's the author's job to protect their property" but when someone comes along with an idea for just that (TCPA) people fight against it tooth and nail. I wonder why?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[garett_spencley]

Doom 3 - remake of a classic. Typical ID pushing of graphics but not much in terms of game play.

Halo 2 - next version of Halo .. will probably push the envelope but they can afford to because of Halo's success.

GTA VC/SA - both new versions of GTA III

Half Life 2 - new version of HL

You misinterpreted my original post. I did use the words 'threatens the gaming industry' .. which, by itself, is slightly ambiguous. Had you read my elaboration carefully you would have understood that I was refererring to new games that push the envelope.

Console sales are a constant .. which is why so much emphasis is put on them. It's why contracts are written to guarantee a game will be developed exclusively for one console for a set period of time after its release.

But when kids get bored because each new game is exactly the same as the last .. those console sales will diminish.

It's unrealistic to take a risk involing a couple mil and do something completely new when it's harder and harder to see returns on your investment.

It's not like you can make a $50 prototype of a video game and get a group of kids together to do study group before investing full throttle like you can with a physical toy.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Adobe is in the business of making money, and what you are doing is depriving them of the opportunity of making a sale."

Why? Most of the software, music and movies I own were bought only after downloading them. I'm sure Adobe would rather someone download and use their software illegally and have the chance of either them or their employer buying licenses, rather than have said person just completely ignore them because their software's too expensive.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

Well explain to me from a business sense, how a company that puts millions of dollars into making cars, is different from a company that puts millions of dollars into making music so that everyone from their janitor to their lawyers can get a paycheck? It's a company, it's a product. When you take their product and don't pay for it, it damages the company. Just because they can make more, or because the actual 'cost' of the raw product is low, doesn't mean that you should take it for nothing, or less than they are asking. You can't say, "Well i think it should cost less- because it costs only $15,000 of raw parts, so i'll go to a hummer dealership and steal the car and then leave $15,000 in their mailbox".

It's not for you to deciede. If someone puts time/effort/money into making something, then they own it... even if it's intelectual property, or a physical object. Just because the intelectual property is intangible (and easily copyable) doesn't mean it should be free if the owner doesn't want it to be.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

He didn't mean right to profit, he meant right to be PAID by the people USING HIS PRODUCT. AND if you couldn't understand that, please remove yourself from the gene pool.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Random832]

read it and i don't see it as applying to downloads. [sharing, sure, but not downloading]

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Justus]

I would be willing to bet that piracy would occur even if prices for PC games were cut drastically. Serious Sam (and its sequel) were both introduced at a budget price of $20 and they're probably available for less than $10 at many retailers, but I would suspect that if you went to the big torrent sites, you'd see at least a few people leeching them. In this situation, if you are upset with the industry's pricing, don't spend your money on the game. That doesn't give you a free license to pirate it, either; the developer loses your money and you give up the enjoyment you would've gained from playing the game. That's how the laws are written and how the system works; if enough people do this, the prices will drop. I honestly hate telling people that this is their only option, but it's the only way to do it legally and attempting to legitimize your options by saying "oh, well, they charge too much, those fuckers, so I'm going to get back at them by pirating it!"

All that being said, you've vastly misrepresented the pricing scheme for Half-Life 2. As you see on the Steam website, Half-Life 2 with CS: Source is $50. The silver package (which includes all of Valve's games plus Day of Defeat: Source) is $60. Now, granted, the collector's edition is priced at a whopping $90 on their website, but many other retailers have it listed for $70-80. This gives you everything that the previous packages had (on DVD, if you buy the retail version rather than the Steam copy) plus a bunch of other crap (soundtrack, T-shirt, 'making of' DVD, fancy box, etc). You're hardly being forced into paying $80.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

1) My bank account is not really secret. I would be glad to send it to you - the only thing you would be able to do without my photo ID (and my face) or my password/key for Internet banking would be to send me money - which would be nice. :)
2) I don't have an SSN since I don't live in the US.
3) You can copy most of what I have on my computer because I share it on P2P. I don't share some really boring stuff (which noone really wants), business files and personal files. Business files are covered under different laws (they are trade secrets) and personal files under privacy laws. These are things very distinct from copyright, so I do mind you copying them. Copying my movies, mp3s, porn, old student essays, etc. would be ok.
4) BTW, breaking into computers is covered by separate laws and is illegal even if you don't copy anything.
5) You see, I don't have an obligation to support those companies. I can use the same logic and say - if you don't pay money to company X, it will go out of business. So please open your wallet and pay them. But this is not logic - this is extortion. First, game developers will be all right without my money. Second, some people don't really care about it that much. If commercial game developers disappear, they would play open source games, or classic games, whatever... Third, in the unlikely case that everyone stopped paying and commercial developers did go out of business, I would reconsider and start buying games (even though I am quite poor by most standards).
6) Additional copies of food cost additional money. If they didn't, it would be just like with software.
7) Making a copy is not the same as taking.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[bentcd]

Only a communist would demand that publishers and artists work for nothing...
Actually, a communist wouldn't. A communist would expect them to work at their capacity while receiving sufficient resources from the state to sustain themselves and their families.
The main beneefits of a capitalistic approach is first that you get a better way of weeding out the bad (i.e., unpopular) ones and further encouraging the good (popular) ones whereas a communist system would tend to degenerate into corruption and base their decisions on the private motivations of a few and secondly that in the capitalistic system, you end up driving a large number of people into the business who otherwise wouldn't bother but who are tempted by the wealth and who turn out to be quite good in spite of their lack of initial interest in the business.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Random832]

but the point is, legally and morally, it's _not_ as bad as stealing a physical object - not that it's not bad, just that it's not _as_ bad. in a legal sense, jaywalking and speeding are worse.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

Thanks for the comments. The reason that the third option exist and is valid is simply "by default". If we start in a tabula rasa society, there is no reason why you can't copy something. The old principle of "whatever I do in my house is my business". For copying to be wrong, there must be a reason, if there aren't, it is right.

And as for the reasons, the best that the copyright advocates can come up with is that "companies have the right to profit", which is obviously baloney (even though in present-day USA some agree with that shit). Most other arguments are fallacies - "copying = theft", "what if nobody paid for software", etc.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

How is downloading a copyrighted work not "reproduction by electronic means"? The action of downloading creates a copy that didn't exist before. It's not that complicated.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[herc_mk2]

It's not wrong to get something for free. It's wrong to take something that doesn't belong to you and that wasn't freely given to you.

Well said. Although I hate feeding trolls (like the grandparent), I can't resist this one...

There's only one reason the programmers* get paid: because their employer (the studio) and the publisher expect to make enough money from sales to cover their costs (and hopefully a little extra).

So what if the programmers already got paid? If the studio has already spent all of its money paying employees, but doesn't get anything in return, how long do you think that studio will stay alive? Then the programmers are out of a job, and if studios aren't making money, there won't be any jobs for them to get.

Sorry if you consider this to be "capitalistic crap," but it's the reality of the way the world works. No, I take that back -- I'm not sorry at all.

* -- There are a lot more people involved in the production of a game than just programmers: there are 2D and 3D artists, mission designers, musicians and audio engineers, voice actors, producers, etc. Plus all of the people in the other departments that any company needs to survive, such as accounting, human resources, and, of course, legal...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[danila]

You don't understand what I mean. I am saying (though I am hardly the only one) that there is a basic right to copy data. I don't need a reason to have this right, instead there must be a pretty good and convincing reason why not before I would even listen. :)

You reasoning is faulty. I can also say "You should not say anything about a company unless it is something good, because if you said something bad, that would harm their image". It's the same logic as you use, implying this false dichotomy. It is perfectly right to use the product and still not pay. It doesn't follow that I must pay for it, just as it doesn't follow that everything you say about a corporation must be good.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[scot4875]

Newsflash - game industry profits exceeded Hollywood's domestic box-office take a couple years ago. (sorry, can't find a link -- check Gamasutra's news archives)

This does not include:
overseas box-office sales
pay-per-view
DVD sales
merchandise tie-ins/marketing cross-promotions
TV 'syndication'

It's like saying that I made more money than Bill Gates (but only if you count just the money that Bill Gates found on the ground on his way to work)

--Jeremy

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Random832]

sure, it's "reproduction by electronic means" - it just generally doesn't come to a "total retail value of more than $1,000" (plus, i don't know its legal status, but the general opinion here on slashdot [from TWANL, of course] is that the offense attaches to the uploader rather than the downloader [it clearly can't attach to both because only one copy is made])

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[bentcd]

Yet proprietary software should be called 'handcuffware'.
If you really care as much as you want us to believe, the very least you should do is actually _read_ that web site and try to figure out exactly _what_ it is he suggests calling handcuffware. It's not "proprietary software" as you seem to have deluded yourself into thinking.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another stupid post trying to show their mental superiority because they know the difference between theft and copyright infringement. I just know everytime something like this comes up, some asshat like yourself has to make a big deal about it. There is really no difference between what they say and what you say. Theft is something the masses can understand while copyright infringment is not, it's as simple as that. Theft is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. If you do it, you are breaking the law, and deserve to be punished no matter what stupid rationalizations you come up with. If you understand that risk, go ahead and do it. Just don't justify it, because what you are doing is wrong. Period.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[ninjadroid]

Copyright is a rather artificial construct. Why would we allow publishers control over their work, if that work could be made to benefit the whole world without any additional cost to the publisher? Answer: because it still takes money to create the work,

So far, so good.

and publishers should be able to make a profit on it. Only a communist would demand that publishers and artists work for nothing... and that is what you are demanding when you state that it is OK to copy software. That, or you think that others should pay for the content you enjoy for free...

Not so good.

First, publishers, like buggy whip manufacturers, do not have a special right to stay employed.

Second, to say that it is OK to copy creative works -- that is, we could get along just fine without a system of copyright -- is not to say that creators should work for nothing. The open source software business (yes, I do mean business) is rife with examples of people writing freely redistributable and modifiable code for cash. Historically, creative works were produced long before any notion of copyright existed. It would take some space to discuss this issue in full, but suffice it to say, the absence of copyright is not the abscence of creativity.

Third, I submit that a skeptical opinion of copyright law is not a trademark of communism.

Personally, I don't approve of copyright violations. If you believe in the rules, play by them. If not, quit the game. But don't try to rationalize your free-loading. That said, it would be nice if I could discuss the (de)merits of copyright and its alternatives without being branded a pinko or a bum.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Who's going to keep creating these ideas if the first jerk that comes along starts handing it out to everyone?

Did art and technology, in your opinion, only come into existence with the first copyright law?

By the way, it's not like there aren't today - and haven't been for centuries - "jerks" that "start handing it out to everyone". Yet profits are still made - mostly through added-value. Widespread adoption of advanced technology which diminishes the potential value-addition is a problem for IP profiteers; but it doesn't follow that rights are being violated because technology is obsoleting value-additions (unless you believe in "Positive Rights").

You could say, "Well, then, it's the author's job to protect their property" but when someone comes along with an idea for just that (TCPA) people fight against it tooth and nail. I wonder why?

Aside from the facts that you are conflating one conclusion with a completely different one, and are responding to your own straw man, what good reason is there for non-authors to support something like TCPA? TCPA isn't, as you characterize it, an attempt by authors to protect their works from a hostile environment, it's an attempt to engineer a friendly environment. I think users are probably concerned because it isn't being proposed as an alternative environment, but instead a forced replacement. It isn't attractive enough to users to legitimately compete, and that's the problem.

Protecting works is one thing, terraforming another.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

If that's not what he meant, why is he trying to argue against the OP's true statements with vulgarity and ignorance as his only weapons?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hippies want to rule the world. They want to force us to believe how they believe. They want nothing more than to annihilate thought different than their own. I've *NEVER* met a hippy that was representative of the ideal that wasn't 100% identical to those around him. You find this in the Republican Party these days too. People want to be led and someone is obviously doing the leading...and more than that, they want uniformity. Uniformity frees one from having to think outside the lines, man. Sure, their coloring books might not have lines, but the minute someone suggests putting them in, they are demonized.

I believe you were directing your original post towards me for some reason but I seriously hope that this post isn't directed towards me as it couldn't be further from the truth.

I'm not a "hippy" because I have the name "garcia" and I enjoy jamband music. I don't have dirty feet, long hair, and poor personal cleaning habbits. I don't believe in free love, peace, and communism. I certainly don't believe in everything that those surrounding me socially do. In fact I am in the middle of the spectrum politcally compared to two of my best friends. I certainly make my opinion known to them as often as I can (as I do here on Slashdot) but I am not there to expect them to absorb my belief system nor would I want them to. Intelligent discussion is healthy.

I am actually disappointed in your comments and your blatant trolling. You seem to have a lot of Flamebait/Troll mods. There's probably a reason for that. Your comments are inflammatory, uneducated, and unnecessary. Perhaps you should seriously think about the non-sense you spew before it comes out on the screen.

Use that preview button next time. It will help your cause.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[goldspider]

"If I don't have the means to buy it, but need it, I will copy it." (emphasis mine)

Might I remind you we're talking about a silly video game here.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

Casual pirates might not copy $1,000 worth of software in a 180 day period, but there are certainly people who do so. Hell, there software packages that cost more than that on their own; copying any of those is a crime.

As for the argument both people can't possibly be committing an offense, that's ridiculous. The person hosting the file is, of course, more likely to be distributing over $1,000 worth of copies, as multiple people will most likely be downloading. But saying that both can't be guilty is not "clear" at all. The act of making the copy is a result of two people's actions. Unless the uploader caused the file to be reproduced onto the downloader's computer without his knowledge or consent, they can definitely both be held responsible.

If you go, unarmed, with a friend who has a gun to rob a liquor store, and your friend kills someone, you're guilty of 2nd degree murder, and your direct actions had a whole lot less to do with the victim's death than the direct actions of the downloader have on the reproduction of a copyrighted work. The law doesn't work the way you think it works.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[goldspider]

They did so because it's their right to release their software under whatever conditions they wish. Others choose to release their software under commercial lisences.

If you believe the GPL is a valid lisence, why should you not also respect the others?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[lowe0]

Prior to copyright, wasn't art mainly done for personal reasons, or at the request of a patron? People willing to make a game for personal reasons are probably working on a mod (either for popularity, or to get hired) and there aren't many patrons who are going to foot the bill for the development of an entire game.

Copyright allows us to effectively split the cost of creating these works of art, and the cost of rewarding their creators, according to the value we derive from them. If someone doesn't agree with that system, then that's fine, they can just opt out. But they are NOT entitled to the benefits of that system.

As for TCPA, it's clear that reacting to a hostile environment is not enough - content providers should be looking into offering their products only within a friendly environment. (Note that we're talking about a console game, which should already be in a friendly environment.) If customers reject this, then providers will be forced to deal with the environment as it is now - isn't capitalism great?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[pawnIII]

Theres also a thing called, renting the game. I rarely buy games, cause I rent them. I can rent about 7-8 games for the price of 1, and considering the average time of gameplay is far less than the 5-7 days I get to play it when I rented the game. It gives me plenty of time to experience the game.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Lightwarrior]

> The amount of piracy in proportion to the total installed base of consoles is so microscopic as to be negligible.(sp)

So how big of a problem does it have to be before people go after it? It's not *RIGHT* just because "only a few" people do it. You've also grossly understated the number of people involved in the illegal distribution of games, imo.

> PC devs might have a better argument, but again, this is what happens when you gouge the consumer - 80 bucks for HL 2 with CS source? No thanks, assholes.

$50 gets you HL2 and CS:S over Steam. That's $5 less than the retail box, which only gets you HL2. You want to rethink that argument, troll?

-lw

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[angle_slam]

There is no EULA for movies on DVDs.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[four2five]

I could be way off but I'm under the impression that people pay for support more so than the license. I also know some companies that would rather pay for a license then get something for free. Some people don't like/can't handle the idea of not paying for stuff. They feel the license fee provides them some form of indemnification against lawsuits or some other sillyness. Old habits are hard to break and it used to be, once upon a time, that people didn't have sweet open source apps to use. Poor, poor people.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Kagenin]

1) My bank account is not really secret. I would be glad to send it to you - the only thing you would be able to do without my photo ID (and my face) or my password/key for Internet banking would be to send me money - which would be nice. :)

Um... actually, anyone with your account number can issue a draft to the back office of your bank; this is how the Nigerian Email Scams work. All you need is a bank account number for that, no form of ID required. Keep that number safe and sacred.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[ryanmfw]

That's not really for you to decide. Let Adobe decide what they'd rather have happen.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[bheerssen]

Copyright violation is not theft: not because it isn't wrong, but because nobody has been deprived of an object that was previously in their possession.

When you violate other's copyrights, you have not stolen anything, even though you may have deprived someone of their just reward.

Think of it this way: if I illegally copy one of your protected works, I may have caused you to not received the money due to you (if I would have otherwise purchased it) but that is not the same thing as taking money directly from your wallet. You never owned that particular copy of the work because I created the copy, not you, and therefore I have not committed theft.

Calling it theft is not accurate and should not be tolerated.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

You might not be a hippy, but you bow at the cock of the biggest technohippie around and suckle between his legs as he gives you pretty words that tell you that you are just as good as the guys that actually make content and you have every right to take their works as your own.

Again, someone that doesn't want to force ideas down other peoples minds is as bad as a communist and there mind control. Someone that wants to take something others have created and appropriate it for themselves is either a thief of a commie.

Personally? I hate most jambands. The dead were alright when they were doing space, but I generally left after that. I hated the rest of the hippy aspects...

You know what is cool about them? That they choose to allow their stuff to be traded. I've got a friend with dozens of their sets.

But you know what? Going a step further and sucking RMS's cock and telling everyone that it is mandatory to give up copyrights and the fact that you aren't just giving things away out of the good of your heart, but that it should be some fucking dirty hippies idea of electro-communism. Us content creators are blue collar labors again. All the schooling or woodshedding and it means nothing. Only the charismatic that can sell support deserve to be compensated. Only those that play live need to get paid. Those that hone our crafts, not wanting to be bothered past the delivery on the content -- we get screwed under RMS's ideals.

Fuck that. And fuck him. And fuck anyone that sucks his cock and are poisoned by the seed he had impregnated in them.

I like the GPL. I have released a lot of software under this license. I distance myself from it once its released because I don't want to be bothered by it. Generally, we take our 'handcuffware', as noted by Gnu.org, and put it out in GPL land after I have a newer release of our software and leave it at that. I don't like supporting software to begin with. Giving the source away means that I don't have to anymore for the folks that choose not to support me. I'd BSD or Public Domain it, *BUT* I don't want the software used against me at a later date.

The GPL is great. I wish the idealism would stop simply with that and not move on towards the brainwashing.

We all need to be paid for our works if people want to take them. If folks want to give their works away, I applaud them. I don't applaud the quest to make content creators second class humans just because some idiots could never get off their fat fucking ass and finish up a project, *hurd*, only to have their ideals ruined by someone that gave away their software not because of religious iconery, but because of sheer pragmatism, *linux*.

The fact that I am vocal about the fact I don't want to be considered a second class citizen in the Gnu's mind doesn't make me a troll.

BTW I might have a lot of Flamebait/Troll mods in this thread, in fact the first post dropped all the way down to -3 at one point. Its back to +4 Insightful. It means there are some actual thinking people on this site instead of the sheeple that seem to adhere to the same beliefs as you.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking power called an idea, which an individual may exclusively possess as long as he keeps it to himself; but the moment it is divulged, it forces itself into the possession of everyone, and the receiver cannot dispose himself of it. -- Thomas Jefferson

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

When prices are magnitudes out of order to production costs goverment should act.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm really confused by you, do you wan't me to buy the game or net. If you say "fucking buy it" then there CAN'T be a lost sale when I download it...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I expect people to pay me for my services and to pay me for the goods I provide. I do not expect people to pay me for someting I did at some time without even their knowlage.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

How in the world can I deprive them of a sale if I never intended to buy it in the first place?!

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

First, why be an AC for a decent quote?
But at the same time, being in an age of information, if we just want to steal/'borrow'/pirate any idea that is put out there for the public consumpution and not pay it's creator any... then why should any of us think or express ideas?
I think the worst thing is that could happen is people stop trying to express ideas, but rather horde them and hide them, so that they could make a physical 'product' instead later, and totally stop putting out IP. This won't happen, but still, don't try to push it in that direction. If you don't like the law, then petition your congressmen/women to remove the us patient and copyright law totally. If enough people want to remove IP from being private property at all, so be it... but let the people decided it. I'm sure in the process you will destroy more industry than oursourcing, india, or GW could ever do, but if that's your goal... go for it.
I wanna see you have to work 60-70 hours a week on making music, only to get paid nothing, and but have to pay hundreds, if not thousands a month in rent/bills/loans to cover your costs for making it.
I work in the music industry as an artist, a session player, and a audio engineer. I work hard, and don't see why, simply because you can copy my work in three clicks or less, that I should be homeless/bankrupt and hungary. You are probably the type of person that wants recordings of orchestras for Broadway plays, instead of real musicians playing them, just so you can see them cheaper.
And I hate to put it this way, but Doctors and Lawyers aren't the only ones that go to school and have loans to pay off. I've spent nearly $120K on education, and i kinda need to pay that off. Should people who can 'do' things, that aren't copyable or reproducable by machines be the ones to get paid?

And even on that note, do you want all drug companies to stop researching and making drugs? If you wanna abolish IP, then they aren't going to do anything, if they can't patent it! I hope you never get sick!

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[arose]

Creative works do not belong to anyone. They never have. You can someone use the word "own" of something that is copyable at the most basic level (no inherit physical form at all -- a memory is a kind of copy after all) and is not in your hands or vaults, but out there in the world and propably in large numbers? What exists are monopolies of copying, long and overreaching monopolies. You know what monopolies do to the market, especialy monopolies that are around for a long time?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[arose]

Copyright is Anno 1710. People expresed ideas and created art just fine before than. People seem to have a basic need to create and to express their ideas. People also seem to have a basic need to share information, this is commonly called culture, and I'm afraid about the future of that. Very afraid. Because beeing able to control culture (and corporations are heading that way, copyright works better when few give to many) is right up there to beeing able to control language -- culture and language both are the most important tools of comunication for humans. The economic aspect... I believe that we are already at a place where active production of goods by all people (at least in the way people are involved now) would be countereffective and unproductive. The economy is responding by creating a pseido-economie (aka new economy) where the so called "intellectual property" is sold not to manufacturers who use that information to make better things or improving the process itself, but to end users. Instead of selling you a piece of clothing they sell you a brandname with a piece of clothing as a bonus. While this does "create" work places, it is IMHO a very misguided way of using human resources. One could argue that redistibuting the workforce in smaller time chunks to the production work would create equal tangible output. This would free people to use their time to explore their creative talents and statisfy their urge for creation. Of course that would not create the needed scientific, enginiering and similar "hard" information, but I believe that this information is fundamentaly different by the fact that it is not usualy needed by the end users of a product, but manufacturers, who can then redistribute those fixed costs.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[WWE-TicK]

> Right to a profit is the same as saying "Give
> me free shit."

How is being compensated for one's work the same as saying "give me free shit". I have bills to pay, and working for free doesn't pay those bills. You'll realize that just as soon as you move out of your parents' basement and into the real world.

I have the right to charge as much as I want for a product that I create. It would of course be in my best interest to charge a fair price, otherwise a competitor would most likely come around and offer the same thing but for a better price. If I don't, I wither away and die, which is how it should be. How is that not capitalism?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll grant that point, certainly. For this particular thread, I'd say copyright infringement is worse than misusing a word in the media, but not as bad as actual theft (and all three are bad).

And I like the jaywalking or speeding comparison, because a single incident of any of these things is pretty harmless. It's the systematic abuse by thousands of people that can turn any of these things into a serious problem.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course. I think that was the intent though. I mean, why else would a company put out a press release saying "Our game got pirated and you can download it for free!" They must have wanted people to download it so they could get free advertising. They knew from the Halo 2 incident that publicizing the leak would get attention, and they wanted the publicity. There's simply no other logical explantion.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Wescotte]

I'm going to get modded to -5 for this but fuck it.

Hmm why is it every time somebody says I'm gonna be modded down (or asked to be modded down) they end up being +5? Must just be good old reverse psychology...

Testing Theory..
Please mod me down

Eric

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Erik Hollensbe]

I know how you feel, but one could twist your argument into "telling people that's how they should live" too, an interesting paradox.

And people with an agenda often will.

I'm of the firm belief that while applications of agendas to specific areas (X is right and Y is wrong and Z is why, so I'm going to do I, J and K about it), is fine, but applying it to your whole world view either leads to tons of denial or disappointment when you find, that ultimately, things you have supported were not in yours or anyone else's best interest. Easier phrased, "People make mistakes". It's easier to admit your mistakes when you haven't projected yourself as a moral panacea.

Al Gore Sr. once said (paraphrase), "The poor democrat gains from democrat programs and becomes well to do, and then votes republican." Despite the bent Gore obviously had there is a lot of truth to that statement, absolutionists are generally more self-serving than absolute.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[AgentTim3]

This argument just doesn't hold any water, you can't compare the relatively modern theoretical concept of "intellectual property" to physical objects. It's completely impossible to "own" intellectual property.

What you are allowed to own is the right to use a particular piece of intellectual property in order to generate revenue. Once upon a time copyright laws meant that and only that, and this little clause about "fair use" hadn't been flushed into a toilet.

The difference between two companies spending millions, once creating cars and one music? Sure. One has a legitimate business model that completely holds up when subjected to logical examination. The other relies on an artificial construct put in place purely to prop up an otherwise senseless model.

For a moment, just remove that prop. Forget about existing laws and think about this situation: I, as an entrepeneur, come to you requesting that you invest millions of dollars in my product. It'll be a very popular product and I can guarantee lots of people will like it. There's one catch though, as soon as it's finished and we release one copy of it, there's absolutely no possible way to stop people from copying it and giving it away for free. It costs them virtually nothing to do so and there's no way for us to know about it. But since our product will be popular we'll rely on lots of good people to give us money for it instead of getting it for free. Now, how about that million dollars? Or am I sounding just a tad ludicrous?

I'm not going to argue the merits of the artificial copyright construct we've put into place right now, but you simply have to realize that there's just no comparison between the two.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

Well,

It *WAS* modded down to -2 for a while.

And then it got modded back up to +5.

I don't care either way. I was actually surprised it got that high. Fuck, I'll even post this without the karma rating (which actually hurts your numeric rating because its assuming that you don't even think its worth posting).

To get rated up, you pretty much just have to either take the position the sheep take or be brutally honest and willing to defend your position. Trolls are hit and run...they don't stick around to defend themselves.

Personally, I just hope my posts convince someone to think on their own instead of letting the masses tell you what to think. Personally, I think copyright is a great idea, while at the same time thinking patents suck. Both need improvements. Neither need scrapped. I'm one that thinks more fair use needs to be in place with copyright, but at the same time the author should have full control over the rest (meaning the reasonable time frame can be infinite). I also think art, literature and music are all petty and thus I have a day job that pays a LOT less than my music but fulfills me more because I can help kids through my research (I've traveled to 13 high schools across the country in the last 3 weeks to research teaching methods and curricular realignment...and then did a massive concert at ANOTHER f'n concert this weekend that happened to take place as a high school with a killer stage -- it was better than some of the theatre type settings we've played in the last year. So 14 high schools in 3 weeks (the one wasn't for research). Some things are just more important than others...music isn't important, and neither is art or literature or videogames.

Anywho, take an argument and take an opinion. Don't take one just because others are doing it and post it. You will get your instant karma bonus in no time...

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Damit where are my mod points when I need them!!!

Being used by someone else. Most likely a Kerry supporter modding down anything resembling a republican point of view.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

Also in 1710, there wasn't much danger of things being copied too much. I mean, things such as books, etc were ripped off, but it's not like there was some way for someone to steal/distribute millions of copies of something.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[sparkmanC]

Woah dude, like, chill out man! ;-)

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Igmuth]

Ok, since you mentioned open source, I'll bite.

Open source (at least the kind most commonly refered to here, that being the GPL), requires copyrights to exist just as much as, say Rockstar.

Don't think so? Well, various groups (EFF, et al) can and do their (and other's) IP interest. Just look at what happens, when say Linksys decides to use Linux in their products, but not share their code. People jump all over them, because they are violating the GPL, which can only exist because of copyright laws.

However, when a company that is out to make money does that, people (different people perhaps), get up in arms over it. They claim that these companies should "get with the times", and join the companies that give away product, while selling it.

You can't it both ways. Either Rockstar gets to enforce their copyrights, or Linksys can purloin Linux and do whatever they want with it. You can have A or B. (If anyone can think of a sane, logical C, I'd be interesting to hear it.)

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Grym]

But at the same time, being in an age of information, if we just want to steal/'borrow'/pirate any idea that is put out there for the public consumpution and not pay it's creator any... then why should any of us think or express ideas?

In all honesty, I really hate people like you. People who believe nothing is important or valuable unless it is involved in the endless pursuit of symbolic pieces of paper. What ever happened to human achievement or the pursuit of excellence? How can you and your ilk treat an untainted piece of culture, a thought-provoking novel, or a heart-stirring poem that touches your very soul like some fucking widget you're entitled to endlessly peddle to the faceless masses?

Art, literature, and music existed LONG before the idea of "intellectual property," and have no doubt that, were IP laws repealed tomorrow, they would continue to grow and even flourish in ways we can't even imagine under the current paradigm--if only because all the rock-star wannabes would quit and go into business classes where they belong.

-Grym

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Dizzle]

The reason your argument falls apart is because people with the money to buy it will STILL download it for free. That is revenue adobe will not see, though it would have otherwise. That's the major problem.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[smeenz]

Quite right.

I, and many other people I know, feel morally correct in playing ripped versions of the game to try it out, but as soon as we decide to keep playing it, out comes the wallet and the publisher gets their money, because I firmly believe that if they go to the trouble of making something I find worthwhile, they should be rewarded for that.

The reason I'll play pirated copies first is because I don't want to pay money for something that I won't enjoy playing, and there are a lot of games out there that fall into that category.

The publishers counter this argument by producing demos, so that people can get a feel for the game and not have to pirate it to try it out, and this has worked well for me a number of times. If everyone produced demos that substantially reproduced the gaming experience, but were limited in some manner, I doubt I would ever install a ripped copy again.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[antin]

I doubt the developer sees much difference between pirating, renting or buying a second-hand copy. Unless you buy it retail then they don't get a cent.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[SmittyTheBold]

Only as long as you don't apply it to a homocentric anthromorphic diety, or other such fictional construct. It's terribly crass and likely to get people backing away from you. ...
You call it design, we call it evolution.

Since when did this become an anti-Judeo-Christian rant? There's no need to bring God into this; what'd he do to you? Kill your dog?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Oddly_Drac]

"anti-Judeo-Christian rant?"

When you labelled it, there.

"There's no need to bring God into this"

So why did you? I was referring to the Great Green Arkleseizure.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Oddly_Drac]

"Hippies want to rule the world. They want to force us to believe how they believe."

They

Do you enjoy stereotypes?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[arose]

Printing press? Other publishers could do it, that's why they needed monopolies on copying. With the advaances in technology the whole thing is falling appart no matter if you think it's "stealing" or not.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Random832]

but it's double dipping - either the uploader is making a copy or the downloader is - they can't claim 50 copies were made [for a retail value of $1000] if a file was only downloaded 25 times [with a retail value only adding up to $500]

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[geoffspear]

I think you're confusing criminal law with formal logic.

You're right that if only 25 downloads occured for a $500 total value, neither party has committed a criminal offense, but if Person A had $1000 worth of software that he allowed to be downloaded from his machine, by any combination of downloaders, and one of them, Person B, downloaded $1000 worth of software from any number of uploaders, they've both committed a federal crime.

Again, you can't claim 2 murders occured if you've only got one body, but you can sure as hell send 2 people to jail for 25 to life for the one crime. Criminal law is not mathematics.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[DMadCat]

Business files are covered under different laws (they are trade secrets) and personal files under privacy laws.

I fail to see how an unreleased "copy" of a game is any different. It hasn't been released to the public yet and so for all intents and purposes could be still considered private and/or a trade secret.

Making a copy is not the same as taking.

This argument is pure bullshit. You are making an exact duplicate of someone's product and depriving them of any money they may wish to charge for that product while still enjoying the fruits of their labor. The only reason people feel this is acceptable is that it's so easy to do.

Now, if you were to look at the game in question, say, "Wow, I'd like to have that but I'd rather not pay for it so I'll just take their ideas and make my own game!", then you go right the fuck ahead.

The bottom line is, you're taking someone else's extremely hard work and you're using it without their permission.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

What's so "natural" about conventional property rights

For the state of nature always have and always will exist, humanity perpetually lives in the state of nature, the rise of political-states are but the conspiracy of a large gang of individuals to enslave and exploit those who are weaker, nation-states are artificial, an illusion, a fraud, they are merely concepts made up in people's minds that have no life or body of their own, they have no rights, no mind, no soul, the power exerted to enforce these fantasies is very real, but the idols invented to incite political tyranny are not. Nature remains the same, whether people recognized traditionally as living in nature, in a tribal society where a chief gets his followers to take up clubs to beat people over the head to get them to obey him or political-states who beat people over the head with violence they label as law and threaten the extinction of humanity with nuclear weapons to continue getting away with their crimes. The natural rights an individual has is always retained, for they are based on the right to own oneself, to think for oneself and to act on one's choices, a free society consists in the respect for these rights and an absence of prior restraint that allows people the total freedom to act and only after acting in a manner that infringes upon other people's rights, does a free and just society respond with force to protect the victim and prosecute the guilty to restore to the victim as much as can be accomplished. No one loses one element of one's rights, a person may voluntarily surrender one's rights or surrenders them because of coercion but the person still retains one's natural rights for they can never be taken away and may be reclaimed and exercised at any time.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Being noncorporeal and impossible to exclusively control once publicly disseminated, "entitlement", a term reserved for the management of physical property (which cannot, as information can, be anything less than exclusively occupied and controlled), isn't necessary for copying.

If customers reject this, then providers will be forced to deal with the environment as it is now - isn't capitalism great?

Yes, capitalism is great. But this is more conflation. Last I checked the capitalist solution is to outcompete, not to use government to suppress competition. "The providers"' general method of "dealing" isn't to secure their products to operate in the providers' preferred way, it's to alter the environment through use of the US military and police - IOW, by petitioning government officials to change laws in their favor, accompanied with Roman-style tributes, or campaign donations, to ensure that the wheel is greased. Their reaction to the failure of their security systems isn't to devise better ones (except in the notable case of the software industry, who have mostly gotten it right), it's to run, tail-'tween-legs, to Mommy Congress who will soothe them and make things better with government guns. The laws get changed, usually through stow-away on important bills rather than being refined through examination or debate. Capitalism in action?

Capitalism is great, but the US wouldn't know - it's utterly mired in a mixed economy, and has been quasi-socialist since 1937, at least.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[clifyt]

Stereotypes are there because there is a basis of truth in them.

They do not extend to every stereotype, nor do they extend to every member of that stereotype.

But for the most part, yes, I as you say, enjoy stereotypes.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[TibbonZero]

I assume that you have never tried to live off of Art alone. Try living in Boston, NYC, London or LA with no paycheck, no insurance, and homeless, simply so you can write your poems and songs. Then tell me how great life is and how all art should be given away freely, and how many is worthless.

I haven't yet met a person who is serious and works soley in the Arts that feels that it should all be given away for free.

Since you have this view, I assume that you have some IT job, etc.. that pays you quite a bit, and all you see the MP3s on your computer as are matters of convience. New idea, lets get rid of ALL IP in total. I want you to code for 60 hours a week, and try to feed your family on your paycheck of Zero, because there is no profit in giving it all away. Your sole hope is that your code is so shitty, that your company can charge huge amounts to support it, and that will be enough to pay you and the support personel. However, truthfully... it's not.

Even people in India working at outsourcing centers won't work for free. But will you?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[ninjadroid]

No malice: I seriously didn't understand your post.

The GPL does require copyright to exist -- but that's not the point. The point is that open source software doesn't require copyright to exist. The laxly licensed BSDs are a testament to this. Further, I doubt that the FSF wouldn't exist if there were no copyright laws, and even if it didn't, I'd imagine it would be because free software would be the rule, not the exception.

I condemned copyright violations in my parent post, so I can't figure out the point of the rest of your post. Linksys shouldn't infringe the GPL. Players shouldn't infringe on Rockstar's copyright.

What did I miss?

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[lowe0]

"'entitlement', a term reserved for the management of physical property"

Fair enough, since you appear to only dispute one word of my statement, I'll restate.

If someone doesn't agree with that system, then that's fine, they can just opt out. But they do NOT have any right to enjoy the benefits of that system.

As for the government enforcing a friendly environment, I'll agree that the content providers use the DMCA for this, and is overly agressive in scope. However, that doesn't force me into said friendly environment in the first place - somewhere along the line, I had to lay down cash to buy into the system offered by the provider. If I didn't like the terms, it would've been my right to walk away.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

Way to make everything political.

Re:It's like a free ride when you've already paid.

[Anonymous Coward]

mi names not anonymous coward btw just havent got an account and dont plan 2. you are talking out of your arse gta san andreas 1)its an 18 so that means you must have bought it 4 your child 2)its better for kids to steal in a game than real life. kids most of the time are under a lot of stress especially teenagers and im 16 so i know. its a way to relax and take your anger out to a fake computer game character than someone like your next door neighbour. 3) i love the game its superb and so do millions of other people that have gone out and bought the game. even my mum thinks its a great way to chill out and relax. so before you start sayin bad things about it think about the good things about it. danny curtis age 16 me

Super Novas away!

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw this game for download on a certain site popular with Bit Torrent users yesterday nite... didn't download it, as I don't have a mod chip... and if I wait a few months, the game'll probably be like $10 anyways :P

Re:Super Novas away!

[WormholeFiend]

I think the point is not to save money, but to play it ASAP.

My PS2 isnt chipped either, so it will be less trouble for me to wait and buy the game in 5 days.

It's not going to make a huge dent in my budget.

Re:Super Novas away!

[The_Mr_Flibble]

You mean I gotta wait 5 days ?????

I want it now !

nownownownownownownow

Ah stuff it I'll play swg instead

Re:Super Novas away!

[acz]

you don't need a modchip to play pirate games on PS2 anymore, you only need a PS1 original game and run an exploit.. search google for ps2 scene, memory card exploit.

Ms. Pacman

[2.7182]

Interesting. I recall that one of the first "Leaked" games was a version of Ms. Pacman for the commodore 64. I think I was in HS, so that would be about 1984.

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Feminist-Mom]

Yes, it came out in pirated form before it hit the stands, if that is what you mean. But it didn't make much difference since back then pirated software moved so slowly, since people used to have to physically get together and bring their disk drives. I remember having little parties like this with my Apple II !! Those were the days....

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Anonymous Coward]

But sometimes it moved like the wind.

I used to love cracking BBC Micro games. I remember when FRAK! was released, it had some rather good (for the time) copy protection. It took me hours to crack, but eventually lady luck smiled on me and it was cracked.

I gave a copy to a friend of mine on the Monday.

On the Friday I went to see some old chums from Uni. about 150 miles away. Guess what? They had my cracked version!

And during the course of the year, every single copy of this game I cam across was my cracked version.

I later went on to develop and sell some of my own copy protection and had great fun hearing people bitch and moan about how they couldn;t crack it. Blew their mind when I told them I was the author.

Fun days.

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Anonymous Coward]

Ahhh, so you're the one who came up with ROT-13. You insidious devil, you... : p

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Anonymous Coward]

And some of us are still writing games using a fileformat named after that game (for object positions)... godblessyou orlando m pilchard.

Re:Ms. Pacman

[Llama_STi]

You're just lucky Beowulf isn't around anymore. He made short work of everything...

Agressive persuit

[nounderscores]

The funniest thing about this is the bbc article that says that Rockstar will agressively persue the "theives" using all the appropriate measures. I pity the fool who gets in their way..

Re:Agressive persuit

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you mean: pursue

Re:Agressive persuit

[Anonymous Coward]

Unless the theives change their clothes.

The best advice I can offer would be for the lead thief to ditch his companions who won't be pursued, steal a car, repaint it, then go pick up his friends for a clean getaway.

new name?

[twoslice]

Grand Theft Application: Anditisn't Myfault!

Garcia Marquez's last book

[rguiu]

This is a another example, as the bbc explain in the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3745484.stm

But what Garcia Maruez did finally is he modified the final chapter of the book so the book in the street does not have the same ending than the published book. Quick reaction and probably a very good publicity campaign for boths, the pirate version and the published version

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[micromoog]

I know he's a Nobel prize winner and all . . . but I just can't respect an author that would change a finished work in response to the market. Seems pretty lame and un-Nobel-Prize-like to me.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[Wudbaer]

Well, he can do with his works as he likes, it's supposed to be a free country after all, isn't it ?

Also to say he changed it to market response would mean that everyone reading the already published book said "Ohhh ! It has a sad ending ! But we want a happy end !" and he put in a happy end after that so more people bought the book. You are just pissed of that he somewhat outsmarted the oh-so-heroic "pirates" that are for some stupid reason the great heroes over here.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[operagost]

Well, he can do with his works as he likes, it's supposed to be a free country after all, isn't it ?

Well duh, it's a free country - and I'm free to say that's stupid! Unfortunately, the left has done a good job of convincing people that criticism = hate speech and discrimination.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[micromoog]

Well, he can do with his works as he likes, it's supposed to be a free country after all, isn't it ?

Sure he can, just like I'm free to criticize. I just think it's ridiculous to complete a novel, then suddenly change it to increase sales (which is exactly what's going on here). It suggests that the original novel was nothing special, and that the new novel is similarly mundane.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[FlopEJoe]

"Well, he can do with his works as he likes..."

So long as we don't get the GTA:VC's "Lance shot first" debates!

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[Feanturi]

...but I just can't respect an author that would change a finished work in response to the market.

I'm not familiar with his work, so I don't know what was changed, but it seems to me the change would not have to be significant. Just enough to show which version is which.

Possible original ending (street version):
After the bus exploded, there just didn't seem to be any point in continuing.

Possible fixed ending (published version):
With the bus destroyed, there just didn't seem to be any point in continuing.

I don't think it needs to be any more involved than that, and serves the intended purpose.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[Politburo]

Unfortunately, the left has done a good job of convincing people that criticism = hate speech and discrimination.

I guess we're just discriminating against Bush, then, huh? The right has given us critic = traitor.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[Anonymous Coward]

Seems to me like neither side handles criticism well. Just an observation.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[Politburo]

Very few people handle criticism well. It doesn't matter what their political beliefs are. When someone says "You're wrong", the reaction is usually more towards "Fuck You!" than "What can I do to make it right?" It's just human nature, imo.

Re:Garcia Marquez's last book

[The Cydonian]

Nobel prize winning or not, authors often respond to challenges/constraints placed on them through various means. It is a sort of a creative inspiration for them.

I doubt Marquez meant this as a piracy stopper, but as a potential reader, I can't but be thrilled:- I now have one-and-three-quarters books to look forward to. :-)

need proof of this

[ylikone]

Please post bittorrent links.... thanks!

Re:need proof of this

[joper90]

i hope your joking.. only cause it will take about 5 mins to find one yourself. :)

Re:need proof of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Please post bittorrent links.... thanks!

I guess you're joking, but just to be an AC ass for once...

Link
Mirror :-P

Re:need proof of this

[Anonymous Coward]

Shhhh... be vewwy vewwy quiet... I'm hunting hookers!

Re:need proof of this

[Hatta]

http://66.90.75.92/suprnova//torrents/2837/PS2-Gra nd%20Theft%20Auto%20San%20Andreas%20USA-%20FULLDVD .torrent

Re:need proof of this

[Anonymous Coward]

http://piratebay.org/download.php/3249652/Grand_Th eft_Auto_San_Andreas_USA_PS2DVD-PARANOiD.torrent

argh matey!

Re:need proof of this

[russint]

okie dokie

*sigh*....

[joper90]

Another dupe.. and a day late also..

But on another note why is this making news.. Every single xbox,pc,gc,ps2 etc etc game is cracked/released, and normally before retail dates.

Just because they big name games does it actually matter.. This has been going on since the days of the zx81 (and prob before).

Re:*sigh*....

[BondGamer]

Because the slashdot editors would like someone to post a bit torrent for them. They don't have enough time or friends to find the link.

Re:*sigh*....

[frankthechicken]

Every single xbox,pc,gc,ps2 etc etc game is cracked/released, and normally before retail dates.

Which makes me wonder if the Steam idea is the best way to publish games. It removes potential weak spots in the distribution, i.e. retailers, distributers who could "steal" a copy, essentially eliminating the vast majority of the early leaks.

Though of course HL2 still had its source distributed before its release, but this was in different circumstances.

I suspect that with the recent high profile -1 day warez releases, more companies will consider Steam and its ilk to be a worthy of consideration, to protect the publishing companies margins.

Re:*sigh*....

[gl4ss]

why is it news?

because rockstar wanted to jump on the "OH GAMER FANS, HAVE PITY ON US, EVIL PIRATES ARE STEALING OUR MONEY SO WE'RE BARELY BREAKING EVEN WITH OUT MEGA TITLE, and please inform the public it's about to be in stores!!" and made it news.

Re:*sigh*....

[strictfoo]

I suspect that with the recent high profile -1 day warez releases, more companies will consider Steam and its ilk to be a worthy of consideration, to protect the publishing companies margins.

With Steam the publishing company's margins are non-existant, because Steam is designed to cut the publishers out of the process. It's basically directly from the game developers to the end user - thus hugely increasing the profit for the developers while decreasing production costs.

The one flaw with this is that a lot of developers rely on funding from publishers to develop their games.

Re:*sigh*....

[danila]

Only if it's implemented by the developers. There is nothing that prevents EA, MS or another gaming powerhouse from creating their own DRM content-delivery system. Judging from Valve's relative success (lack of immediate failure), I can say that you don't need more than 5 titles to make it work.

Re:*sigh*....

[Llama_STi]

exactly fucking right. most people I know that have x-box don't have the technical ability to even know where to start. they're going to make a absolute shit-ton on this game, no doubt. this is merely free advertising.

Re:*sigh*....

[frankthechicken]

True, and of course you also still need the ability to advertise your product, and the infrastructure (servers etc.) to deliver the product, so I can't see the publishing companies dying any time soon

Re:*sigh*....

[Jagasian]

It is already available via BitTorrent on http://www.suprnova.org/

Re:*sigh*....

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually this might be why this stuff gets so much news, it brings attention to the fact that the game was released for free, and helps the spread of said game.

With stories like this more people are aware of the release, get on the torrents, and that help contribute to the spread of this stuff. So I can see some sites reporting this stuff on purpose.

Whew

[StevenHenderson]

This will help with the supply shortage on the release date!

Inside Job

[Trigun]

Start firing programmers!

Seriously though, Maybe it's time for a security audit of the facilities, as well as the production sites and printing companies. If they can't keep their shit together, someone else will gladly do it for Rockstar.

Re:Inside Job

[strictfoo]

These security breaches occur at the plants that manufacture the PS2 discs themselves. Rockstar doesn't do this, an outside (sony approved?) company does this.

No need to fire programmers!

Re:Inside Job

[kaleco]

Internal audits? Then forget about release dates.

If programmers are treated like suspects before they commit a crime, their motivation will die. Also, audits take time on their own - it would set the game back and/or waste money better spent on some undeveloped area of the game.

Re:Inside Job

[Anonymous Coward]

I take it this is coming from experience? :)

Re:Inside Job

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe it's not an issue of busting the pirates. Instead, maybe it's an issue of treating your employees better, and improving security regarding the product in its development and production stages.

Or, as I like to think, it's much more likely that this is just a PR stunt, since game publishers have the sales numbers and KNOW that they can make more sales by pushing hot titles out before release, not only making people more likely to buy it (instead of pirate it) out of guilt, but also making extra headlines.

Re:Inside Job

[Trigun]

Internal audits should be done by anyone making a software product. There should be no impact on the current staff.

Scan your computers for unauthorized ports, scan your traffic, verify your firewall. Maybe have separate computers for web access and development? Make sure your shit is taken care of. Make certain that your suppliers and contractors follow some kind of security procedures. This is not the same thing as putting every developer in the hotseat and interrogating them.

Re:Inside Job

[Anonymous Coward]

Start firing programmers!

Are you trying to sabotage GTA back to 2D? I mean the innovative developers are likely not at fault.

Re:Inside Job

[snillfisk]

These security breaches occur at the plants that manufacture the PS2 discs themselves. Rockstar doesn't do this, an outside (sony approved?) company does this.

In fact, I don't think you can blame the manufacturing plant this time around. The game is due for a North American release in five days and have probably been shipped to all major outlets and distribution houses several days ago. This is really not news (while the Halo 2 leek surely was), and it may seem that Rockstar is trying to get some pity and undeserved attention because of the recent Halo 2-leek. This happens with absolutely each and every release on the market, and this is truely "Nothing to see here, move along"-stuff.

Re:Inside Job

[Anonymous Coward]

The game is supposed to be on store shelves in less than a week. It would have had to have been manufactured and sent to distributors by now. Some truck driver or game store employee sampled the merchandise.

What?

[Heem]

WHOA WHOA! You mean to tell me there is pirated software on the internet!?!? Next you'll be telling me I can download Music and Pornography.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

I know, I gotta question all of this press about "leaked games" recently. Have they never been on usenet before?

Re:What?

[DeathByDuke]

HOLY SHIT?!! You can download pr0n?!!!!

Re:What?

[stanmann]

Evidently, not, I don't recall the matrix movies being available for download over a week before release to theatres. Or Nemo, or Gigli

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

But they were available for download before thier DVDs were available for retail. (Full DVD, not some moron with a camera)

Re:What?

[Daengbo]

Well, my friends at Pantip Plaza in Bangkok got them from somewhere, so I assume that they were available.

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

They recently upgrade the internet, it now contains more than just porn.

My Grandpa always said, back in the days you could surf all day long and not find a single non pornographic website.

Those were times!

Re:What?

[Heem]

No. I was just being sarcastic. There's no way you'd be able to download porn. I mean, Think of the Children!

Re:What?

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, Nemo was. Matrix 3 was. Never seen Gigli for download, but never searched, either.

Re:What?

[stanmann]

Ok, sorry, I meant that I didn't recall seeing it on the front page of slashdot. I definitely was aware of the existence of those.

Re:What?

[hairykrishna]

There was a whole website devoted to illegal downloads of matrix 2 pre cinema release(I forget the full title- I wish i could forget the whole damn movie). It looked identical to the official site apart from the "download trailer" link was changed to "download movie". Those pirates truly are cheeky bastards.

Re:What?

[Politburo]

Some movies are available for download pre-release. I think the reason there are less is simply because of the media. Unless you have lucked out and got a screener DVD, you'll have to have some way of getting the image from film to digital. Not only that, you'll have to have the film to begin with. There are significantly less film copies made for theatres than CD/DVDs for a game. Either that, or you can tape a preview/critic/press showing of the film, which are rare, difficult to get into, and probably monitored (at least for larger events and films).

Re:What?

[stanmann]

What about the minimum wage projectionist who slaves a dvcam to the projector and the digital out to the digital audio in, at the "employees only" pre-screen the friday before opening?

Re:What?

[w8300v-2]

Pirated software, music, and pr0n are a big problem on the internets.

I'm George W Bush, and I approve this message.

Re:What?

[The Cydonian]

Pantip Plaza! That's the name I was searching for! :-)

Seriously, I doubt if the bootleggers in Asian cities get their stuff off the net; I'm told the Triad (and their siblings, the Indian Bhais, and the Russian mafia) is (are) more to blame.

What Next?

[darkmeridian]

I know this is Slashdot, but these piracies are really hurting. I don't know about the financial aspect of things, but a lot of programmers worked really hard for this, and stealing the program just takes the shine out of all the work they put into it.

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

Oh, Coralized Link.

http://www.gamespot.com.nyud.net:8090/news/2004/10 /20/news_6111057.html

Re:What Next?

[StevenHenderson]

I don't know about the financial aspect of things, but a lot of programmers worked really hard for this, and stealing the program just takes the shine out of all the work they put into it.

Unfortunately, people don't adopt a similar viewpoint with music. "What? So what if they spent 2 years making this album?! It costs $11.99!! Fsck the RIAA!!!" Hypocrisy is so sad sometimes. If you download an album, and you like it, then buy it.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

nyud.net, huh? That wouldn't be the GNAA shock site, would it?

Guards! Seize him!

Re:What Next?

[darkmeridian]

I don't think that downloading music is right. It is theft. However, the RIAA is preventing the true artists from making money. Record the song, and put it on ITunes. The artist gets a huge cut.

The only thing RIAA conceivably does is to promote the musicians. But I'm sure a PR firm can do the same thing independently. This is especially true for established bands that do not need a huge corporation to take a risk on them.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

it is not theft, it is copyright infringement.

Dont be dismissive of this, they have two different, and distinct meanings.

Re:What Next?

[Winterblink]

Please. Lets come back to this discussion after we see how many copies of Halo 2, Half-life 2, and GTA: San Andreas are sold. I guarantee you they won't be sparing the champagne at the developer's launch parties this year.

Re:What Next?

[GigsVT]

Haha, fuck em.

If they want to dick around people by only releasing the game for 3 year old platforms instead of modern hardware, they deserve whatever they get.

Re:What Next?

[Rik Sweeney]

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

Dongles don't work.

When Robocop 3 came out on the Amiga years ago they used a dongle. The pirates simply hacked the code and told it to ignore the dongle check.

The worst bit was that the hacked version was circulated before the game was even launched.

Re:What Next?

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

Not a good idea. USB devices can be easily emulated in software ( c.f. various "virtual cdrom" drives that appear as being on the USB bus ), and there is a well developed and sophisticated toolchain on nearly all platforms of note for debugging and analysing USB information flow.

Unfortunately, there is precious little other in the way of standardised ports to plug into. Some machines are even shipping without Parallel ports now, if the word I'm hearing is correct, which is a bit troublesome if you're trying, for example, to run Compumedics Profusion 2 which uses a parallel dongle.

YLFI

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

No, nyud.net would be the site that hosts the Coral cache...

Re:What Next?

[strictfoo]

And when programs used (still use?) parallel dongles (that sounds wrong) the crackers would either it ignore the dongle check, or create software that emulates the input/output of the dongle.

Re:What Next?

[Rik Sweeney]

Haha, fuck em.

If they want to dick around people by only releasing the game for 3 year old platforms instead of modern hardware, they deserve whatever they get.

1. The game is coming out on the PC
2. At the end of the day the company wants to make money, why should they release it just for the PC when they can sell it in much larger volumes on the consoles?

Re:What Next?

[Zog The Undeniable]

Dongles are expensive (compared to a few cents for a CD), annoying for genuine users and easily circumvented once someone cracks the software to remove the dongle existence check. They are consquently very unusual.

The only viable copy protection is similar to that used in Quake III, where you're banned from any Internet servers if you use a duplicate key. There's no killer solution for software that doesn't require the Internet to run (even Q3 would always work in single-player mode).

But hey, look at how many people downloaded the warezed copy of Doom 3, and Activision still sold a metric shedload of CDs. I wouldn't cry too much - piracy is going to hurt the publishers of weak games worst, 'cos everyone can find out that it sucks before it goes on sale ;-)

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not stealing or "theft" as they say.

It's copyright infringement.

Too many morons.

Re:What Next?

[Oddly_Drac]

"but how far away are we from USB dongles?"

About this far >________________
Dongles are cracked routinely, so they won't make much of a difference to anyone but the 'security' manufacturers.

As for the leak; I'm still going to buy it and I'm not going to download.

"but these piracies are really hurting."

Who and how much? Bear in mind that Half Life 2 had a release date that was imminent when it was stolen, but it's still quite a way off. Why?

I can see that there's a fairly deplorable amount of games piracy out there, but there _ALWAYS_ was. It's just that the 'seeders' column gives them a way to find out. Incidentally, Eidos' recent profit warning didn't mention piracy...how large is the games industry?

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Are these piracies really hurting them so much?

Have you ever considered that (although the companies would never, ever admit it) that perhaps these leaks have been done by them on purpose? Look at all the free publicity they're getting, and they will even get free beta version feedback on the rumor boards. That GTA was leaked so soon after Halo almost looks suspicious, like GTA didn't want to be outdone by the extra publicity that Halo was getting. Why didn't GTA go out of their way to beef up their internal security, especially after hearing about the Halo leak?

Almost all serious gamers will want to own the official copy, even if they "preview" the pirated version. If the piracy causes say 10K sales to be lost but the publicity results in an extra 100K sales, that would be a smart business move. Especially since their actual cost incurred for each infringed copy is exactly zero.

Re:What Next?

[jxyama]

what does that have to do with anything? just because they are going to sell a lot of copies makes it ok that their intellectual property distribution rights were violated? if someone's rich, does it make it actually okay to steal from him/her, instead of, perhaps, less morrally wrong?

Re:What Next?

[DrXym]

Oh come off it. The number of people who own a modchip and who go to the effort of downloading and burning a 4gb image is miniscule. It wouldn't even register as background noise it is that small.

Now there is a wider problem with piracy in the far east for example, but if it concerned games companies that much, perhaps they should start selling games in those countries at prices people can afford. Sell the game for $5. It might not be much of a profit, but it's surely more than $0 they get from the pirate version. Such copies could pose a simple question written in Thai / Mandarin / Malay / Korean / Indonesian at the start of the game to prevent it being sold outside of the regions it was intended for.

Re:What Next?

[jonwil]

Cracking ANY dongle protected program is dead simple if you can get hold of the program itself and the matching dongle.
Depending on the dongle brand, there are even automated programs that can just read the data from the dongle and unwrap the program no problems.
Or emulators that can "emulate" the dongle (again using data read from it)

The sooner games companies (and others) realize that all this "Copy Protection" crap is never going to work for the PC as it is today, the better.

Although if you really wanted pretty much foolproof copy protection, here is how it could be done (certainly for a console):
All games for/code on the console would have all program code encrypted with RSA or something similar. The encryption keys would be the usual secret/public keypair (with only a very few people having the secret part, remember the XBOX RSA signing key is not yet public).
With some kind of RSA chip on the motherboard (containing the public part of the key internally), every instruction passing through to the CPU could be decrypted (I dont know exactly how fesable real-time decoding of RSA or something similar would be, even with a RSA chip on the board. If real-time decryption is not fesable at the processor speeds involved, another option is to have the RSA chip but have each block of code decvrypted all at once into main RAM before it runs.
Modifying the RSA keychip to make it look for another public key is not fesable. And, as long as the private key stays secret, it should quite effectivly prevent the running of illegitimate code.
Combine this with hardware/code to make sure that games can only run from legitimate masters and not from burnt disks (perhaps make the drive unable to read any form of burnt disks whatsoever) and it should be difficult to crack unless someone finds a vulnerability in RSA (and if that happens, things would happen that are a LOT more serious than a few geeks playing pirate copies of some game a few days before it raches stores :)

Or if encryption is too difficult/slow, you could just do what the current xbox does except move the RSA code into a seperate ASIC so you can sign the BIOS with RSA too (with the signature hash for the BIOS being inside the RSA chip or something)

Oh and also to prevent hacking, make it so that getting at the RSA chip or the BIOS without causing lots of damage is impossible.

The other option is to do what Nintendo did with the GameCube and invent a new media format that nothing except the GameCube can ever read. Seen any ways to copy, download and play GameCube games lately? :)

Re:What Next?

[orasio]

Piracy is attacking ships and killing their tripuliation, stealing the cargo.

Intellectual property is not property. IT is not finite, and _in_principle_ should not have distribution issues. Of course, most governments grant people a _temporary_ monopoly to profit from their "IP" so they release more works. If that scheme ceases to work, we can just go to the other scheme, where noone is granted any monopoly, and IP is not seen as property anymore, so noone can "steal" it.

Re:What Next?

[Cryogenes]

We hate licensing and the such, but how far away are we from USB dongles?

We are talking about console games here. These are already using the strongest copy protection the industry can come up with.

I don't own a console and never will. But as console software is the very antithesis of software libre I find it hard to sympathize.

What's so bad about USB dongles anyway? Seems to me they would be an improvement over CDs/DVDs that must be in the drive.

Re:What Next?

[dubstar]

It is unfortunate that game developers cannot reap the maximum profit possible from their works, but I don't think that equates to taking the 'shine' out of their work. Piracy and leaks have been happening for a long time. In fact - I recall pirated versions of Atari 2600 cartridges in my younger years. There was even one guy when I was just a lad who had built his own Pong box (but certainly didn't write the software on the ROM himself). This has been happening for years, and will continue to happen for years to come - regardless of ANY copy protection measures they can implement.

Where there is a will, there is a way.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong either, but it certainly does appear to be a part of human nature. Most of us were, after all, taught at a very young age - to share.

Re:What Next?

[gfxguy]

And here we have the prime example of the honest users being shackled with burdensome copyright prevention, while dishonest users remain happily unencumbered...

So tactics like these are supposed to promote honesty and goodwill between the game makers and their patrons?

I've said it numerous times here before... I do not promote copyright infringement, but the industry really needs to just look the other way to a certain extent... there's going to be a break even point between how much they spend trying to prevent copyright infringement and how many more people will actually buy the game.

In other words, if you look at all the people who, if they couldn't "steal" the game, would actually buy it , I think you'll find that game companies/RIAA/MPAA are wasting their time and money and promoting illwill.

I know a lot of people claim to download games to try them out before they buy... I don't think it's justifiable for a couple of reasons, but did exactly the opposite; I used to download cracked versions of games (or instructions on how to crack them) I previously bought just to remove the shackles that prevented me from enjoying the game. If you're the game industry, you're claiming that as another lost sale...

Re:What Next?

[MartinG]

does it make it actually okay to steal from him/her,

I only point this out in the interests of clarity. Say after me:

"COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT STEALING"

(It's illegal and widely believed to be morally wrong, but it's NOT stealing)

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

> someone's rich, does it make it actually okay to steal from him/her, instead of, perhaps, less morrally wrong?

not less morrally wrong, its outright okay

Its okay if they can afford one porsche, they dont need a fucking dozen of them

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

Its getting something without paying for it. Regardless of what term you'd like to use, its wrong.

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

Yes, but it IS in the same ball park. Such a mass distribution is detracting from the total amount of money they would have made.

Re:What Next?

[protektor]

I read somewhere that copy protection is put on most games not by the developers but by the publishers of the game. One article from a developer I was reading said that the publisher put copy protection on games to help stop or slow down illegal copies during the first like 3-4 weeks that it is out. That everyone knows that copy protection doesn't stop anyone cold from copying software, it is just suppose to slow them down during the most profitable weeks of a game's launch.

Supposedly most games make their biggest income during the first 4-6 weeks from when they are released, which is why they try and slow down the copies during that period.

Re:What Next?

[jxyama]

you completely missed my point. notice in the sentence regarding rockstar, i said their IP distribution rights were violated. i never said anything about stealing.

the example about stealing was trying to point out if relative harm done to the person would actually make an illegal activity (in the example, stealing, in the case of rockstar, violation of their copyright) into full blown justifiable, as opposed to less wrong.

in any case, stop preaching like you are being "insightful" about theft/copyright infringement. like someone else posted very eloquently in another thread, admitting copyright infringement is wrong but being behement about not calling it stealing is just hair splitting, matter of practical semantics. "he stole my idea!" is a perfectly accepted english sentence though you can't steal an idea under the strictest definition of "steal."

Re:What Next?

[mc6809e]

I know this is Slashdot, but these piracies are really hurting. I don't know about the financial aspect of things, but a lot of programmers worked really hard for this, and stealing the program just takes the shine out of all the work they put into it.

Considering the nature of the game, I think they're getting what they deserve.

The same thing goes for those in the music and movie industries.

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

It will also hurt the independent game manufacturers who have a slightly smaller profit margin. You know, those small house companies that write really creative games that flop because they can't sell enough to pay back investors. There needs to be some hard nosed tactics to crack down on this by the companies.
People complain up a storm about Microsoft's forced product registration, but I can easily see other software companies using similar tactics (not the same) to try and circumvent this. The end result is everyone now has to deal with a hassle because a bunch of people can justify copying all this software without paying for it because it isn't 'stealing'.

Re:What Next?

[Deliveranc3]

It's not the developer who suffers. IT's the poor producers. they've invested their hard earned money and they expect 80-90% of the proceeds god damn it!

Re:What Next?

[b06r011]

i'm sure someone will correct me if i am wrong, but don't flash devices have a finite life cycle - and one shorter than say a cd/dvd? it's bad enough worrying about trashing original cd's, let alone a USB dongle. i don't know if this applies to flash simply when reading, or if it is a write-cycle thing...

just a thought..

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

A three year old console owned by millions of people. What are they thinking?

You're a jackass.

Re:What Next?

[technos]

Seen any ways to copy, download and play GameCube games lately? :)

Yup. Not too hard. It's just a DVD drive under the hood, after all.

But you don't even have to go that far.

This
plus
This

And some freeware software on your PC that I'm not going to even link, because then people will put two and two together and try it.

Re:What Next?

[gewalker]

Excuse me, but that is the basis of socialism, aka income redistribution. Many argue that this is in fact the right thing to do. The idea is that when the government robs Peter to pay Paul it is moral and good. When Peter does it as an independent contractor it is wrong. In the story of Robin Hood, he is the good guy.

Of course, they are wrong. Two wrongs do not make a right. Yes, the rich man without compassion to his fellow man is wrong, but stealing from him to "correct the injustice" is not right either.

Re:What Next?

[MartinG]

notice in the sentence regarding rockstar, i said their IP distribution rights were violated. i never said anything about stealing.

I wasn't referring to the rockstar sentence, but to the analogy that followed it. I do understand what you mean now you have explained though.

is just hair splitting

Well I disagree with that. I firmly believe that the term "intellectual property theft" is deliberately designed to make people think that copyright infringement is equivalent to stealing when it is not. Saying it is a matter of semantics doesn't change that.

Stealing neccesarily results in loss for the victim. Copyright infringement only results in loss in those cases where the infringer would otherwise have paid for the product. For example, when 15 or so teenagers have unofficial copies of maya and other expensive software they have without doubt broken the law, but in most cases there has been no resulting loss because had they not used those copies they would have no copy at all. The developers have not lost anything. Of course, they have to pursue every infringement case because there is no way for them to tell the "would have bought" from the "would not have bought" cases.

This is why copyright infringement is (rightly) illegal, but is not the moral or legal equivalent of stealing.

Oh, and I wasn't preaching - just correcting a factual mistake. Whether that mistake mattered or not seems to be where we disagree.

Re:What Next?

[a_nonamiss]

I completely agree that this wanton piracy is destroying industries left and right. But why stop with software pirates? Libraries cost book publishers billions of dollars each year. If you calculated every book that was ever borrowed from a library and multiplied that by the hard-cover price of the book, libraries have cost this country more jobs than any other institution or industry.

Think of all the money that people would be spending on these books instead of just going to the library to pirate them. This is stealing money from hard working authors and publishers, and eventually, it's going to ruin them. I mean, how are publishers supposed to survive this scourge on their profits? Don't they deserve to get paid? And what about the authors? Why do you think people like Edgar Allan Poe died peniless and in the gutter? Obviously, if he had been paid royalties on all those pirated copies of his books, he would have had enough money to live, maybe even write more books! How many more works would Twain have written if people were't stealing food off his table by going to the library to pirate his books? This "Library thing" is killing book publishers! It's stifling creativity! It's ruining society a we know it. We need to advance society and start dismantling these dens of wanton piracy immediately! I call for the destruction of all libraries now!

OK, now how is that argument substantively different from the argument that file sharing hurts music/software/movie sales? Just because file sharing is more convenient? Just because you don't have to "return" the software/book/movie after a few weeks? There have been libraries for thousands of years, and yet people still purcahse books, and authors can still write books and make money. Every time the BSA says that they are losing billions due to file sharing, just think of this argument.

Information wants to be free!

Re:What Next?

[lecuyerjm]

Humm .... This look more like a trick from RockStar. They are creating a need.

Some dude - I heard that GTA new game has been stolen.

Other dudy - I heard that too. This game must be hot , and my PS2 is not chipped, so lets wait and buy it in 5 day.

This is sh*t ... They are creating a need, and they want people to know that the game is comming out soon

Re:What Next?

[Winterblink]

I wasn't attempting to take a moral stance on the actual theft itself, simply because the parent was indicating the piracy of GTA a week before a highly anticipated launch (seen any counts on the number of preorders?) would cut heavily into profits. THAT's what I'm disputing. Personally speaking, I purchase the games that I play.

Re:What Next?

[tuffy]

Its getting something without paying for it. Regardless of what term you'd like to use, its wrong.

No one's saying it's not wrong. Murder and assault are both wrong too, but they're different things and deserve to be treated differently under the law. Equating the physical theft of property to the unlawful duplication of property only serves to confuse the issue.

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

Yes, but everytime any copyright issue comes up 70% of the discussion is about whether or not its stealing.

Re:What Next?

[Fred Or Alive]

I think with Flash it's only writing that's finite, you can read as much as you want.

Not that software dongles need to be writted to in the first place, the poster is refering to things like DESkey, not a USB flash drive.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Troublesome? The vast majority of people don't need legacy ports. You can still buy adapter cards if you need a parallel port.

Re:What Next?

[GigsVT]

You can't show that at all.

I, like a previous poster, often do wind up getting cracked version of games I already bought.

Sometimes it's because I don't want to futz with a stupid physical CD, my computer is under my desk and it's hard to get to the cdrom.

Sometimes it's because someone else in my family wants to play the same game. Should I have to buy 3 copies of the same game so my wife and son can play? Knowing full well we'll probably get sick of it in a week or two, and never play it again?

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

I will concede the point that being able to play a game on two different systems in the same household is fine. But yes, there are polls that show that piracy is detracting from companies profits. They spend a lot of time and money making this stuff. http://www.xboxsolution.com/article1511.html But downloading software off the internet and never giving the manufacturer any money to compensate them for their effort is wrong.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Aaahh!! but they seem to spend a lot more time and money trying to prove they are losing money by piracy (by the way they loose maybe 3-4% of sales due to piracy). Does this not seem a little suspicious that they spend maybe 10x the amount they loose on trying to prevent it? I definately agree with the posters that are saying this is probably a deliberate leak by Rockstar for publicity reasons. It makes the most sense in this case.

Re:What Next?

[jnull]

I like the satire...

I'm a pirate: I have tens of thousands of mp3s on assorted computers, I haven't bought a M$ OS since '94, I don't peer with those who don't share at least 1000 files; I'm a consumer: I've spent over 50K on computer hardware and software in the last 3 years, I bought FarCry and Doom3 out of respect, I've paid to go to more concerts than I can possibly count.

The generation will decide the value of a dollar, and the expensive obstacles put in place to deter this natural leveling will be taken out of their end.

--c'est la vie--

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod chip?

hd loader, a hd, and a ps2 network adapter is all the rage now.

Re:What Next?

[tuffy]

Yes, but everytime any copyright issue comes up 70% of the discussion is about whether or not its stealing.

It's hard to call it stealing because no one actually loses anything except potential sales. Copyright infringement is more akin to counterfeiting whereby the original's value is affected by lots of new unauthorized copies appearing in the marketplace for free.

It's a semantic thing, but I'd prefer the word "steal" (and harsher legal penalties) to be reserved for the people who remove physical copies from store shelves and "infringement" be applied to those making new copies when they shouldn't.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

The reason people are not worried about libraries is because libraries are not a guaranteed source. There are limited copies and you take your chances in finding the book when you go to the library. Thus you trade off the immediate availability for the free access. If you want immediate availability you buy the book. Same should go for software/music/movies... Its easy to trivialize the theft by pointing to "free" sources. But keep in mind that free sources are paid for... by taxes, by advertising dollars, etc. Pirated material is flat out stolen and the pirates are all too eager to have the benefits of OWNERSHIP vs the tradeoffs of waiting for the product through "free" sources.

Re:What Next?

[rhsanborn]

The problem is that when you steal something, company x loses one product. When this stuff is copied over the net, they lose numerous potential sales and the copiers have little or now realized cost. And I've heard the arguement that they are only potential sales and people wouldn't have bought it anyway, etc. But the monetary loss is still very real.

Re:What Next?

[Austerity Empowers]

Agreed. Dongles do not work. Even the really expensive ones they use for CAD type tools.

Bottom line: software has to be decrypted on your own system in order to run or play. Your system cannot be trusted. There is the fundamental vulnerability. There is no way to fix this, you can simply rely on time/reward investment to discourage people from doing it. However for mass market commercial products, once a single person cracks it, it's open for everyone. All that money you blew on the dongles, sw licenses etc. is out the window.

In actuality, there are enough people cracking CAD tool licenses such that as a student I never had problems learning how to use the ultra expensive chip synthesis tools etc. My school couldn't afford them, but some school in China funded their kids to go break the license, and shared the results. Fortunately we had a few chinese ex-patriots willing to share the wealth. Not trying to justify this, just showing how even a small niche market can bypass even more complicated dongle systems profitably. (No American corporation could get away with this, there are too many hostile eyes involved even in a "secret" design).

The bottom line is if you make excellent software, you will make money on it, even with piracy. How do I know this? The software industry went from almost non-existant, around the time of my birth, to the huge, hopeless gargantuan that we know today. Piracy has been there all along, for all the same reasons. Before the internet there were pirate BBSs, before that there was the corner SW shop with the cash only business in the back room.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

"COPYRIGHT INFRINGEMENT IS NOT STEALING"

No, no, no, you got that wrong. Haven't you figured out that we have new names and sentences for many kinds of acts of evil:

• expressing your middle finger to an another person: a serious battery; 5 years in prison
• sending an unautohorized fly kiss to a member of opposite sex: a sexual assault; 5 years in prison and after that you have register as a sex offender
• slapping another person's fingers: a murder of first degree; hanging
• killing a person who's committing a copyright theft: a heroic deed; you'll be awarded with a corporate state's thought criminal whacker's award

anonymous thought criminal

Re:What Next?

[scribblej]

Maybe I'm too old, but I seem to remember a time when most PCs didn't come with parallel ports or serial ports, either. It was a common purchase to get a serial or parallel card for your mobo.

And go figure, serial and parallel port cards are still available. It's not the end of the world if you haven't got a port.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

People who steal from stores steal how many copies at a time? Ok, they steal a truck on the way to your local store, how many copies are stolen?

A copy gets posted on Suprnova - how many copies are downloaded and how many "potential" sales are lost?

I can guess which one affects Rockstar and the publisher the most.....

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

" Aaahh!! but they seem to spend a lot more time and money"

How the fuck would you know how much is spent on preventing piracy or how much is lost by piracy itself?

Re:What Next?

[tepples]

USB devices can be easily emulated in software

Really? What if a High Speed USB device incorporates a DSP that does most of the program's dirty work? Then you'd need a Beowulf cluster to emulate it properly.

Re:What Next?

[htmlboy]

Considering the nature of the game, I think they're getting what they deserve.

...so id software deserves eternal damnation with nazi's?

that's cute. i guess i should go make a game about owning a ferrari so someone will give me that f360 modena i've been drooling at (red, of course).

Re:What Next?

[ildon]

After the Doom3 E3 demo leak, they moved to dongles. It really only prevents leaks of alpha/beta versions of the game, as the final, naturally, has the dongle check disabled.

Re:What Next?

[Anonymous Coward]

where you're banned from any Internet servers if you use a duplicate ke

I downloaded Doom 3 and Far Cry, and have had no problems playing them online. I simply walked into our local Asda store (a UK supermarket chain) and copied the valid keys from the manuals they thankfully leave in the display boxes :)

Hate to be the sucker who bought them!

Besides, after finishing them both, I didn't think either was good enough to warrant parting with my cash, so the developers haven't actually lost anything.

Re:What Next?

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

I dunno, offloading program functionality to custom per-application hardware like this is a very interesting idea, but in my experience, protection coders seem to be quite conservative ( and halfhearted ), and this is a big step and a big conceptual adjustment.

Still, I wouldn't mind seeing it come along - the more core program function you offload into hardware, the easier it is to port ( provided the target has USB ports, of course ).

YLFI

Re:What Next?

[jxyama]

>Sometimes it's because I don't want to futz with a stupid physical CD, my computer is under my desk and it's hard to get to the cdrom.

not meant to be a flamebait, but some time, the sense of entitlement amazes me. "it's inconvenient for me to reach a bit to my CD drive, so i'm gonna find a way around it, as i cannot be inconvenienced whatsoever since i've paid for the software." you may not have done anything "wrong" because you paid for your cracked game. but there are plenty of others who haven't paid and did something "wrong." yet you are indirectly defending those people, so to speak, because you believe you are entitled to whatever means to reduce inconveniences you experience - be damned, those inconveniences aren't software company's problem to begin with. amazing.

Re:What Next?

[Psychochild]

I wouldn't cry too much - piracy is going to hurt the publishers of weak games worst, 'cos everyone can find out that it sucks before it goes on sale ;-)

The problem is that this also hurts legitimate small, independent game developers as well. In non-game terms, every time someone gets the warez version of Photoshop, that's one less person buying the significantly cheaper yet high quality Paint Shop Pro.

There are a lot of great independent games out there that are really fun. (I highly recommend watching for the game "Zap" to come out soon, it was a real blast to play at the Indie Games Conference.) This is just one site out of many with quality indie games at a good price. Instead of spending time warezing a big-name commercial game, people should try looking into the alternatives. If people start supporting independent game developers, you'll start seeing a wider variety of games being developed independent of the restrictions imposed by publishers. It always boggles me how people can justify pirating games because "games suck these days" without putting any real effort into finding alternatives to play.

Have fun,

Re:What Next?

[arose]

I sould start a breathing air company and sell air to people like you, because as you know, if you get it without paying it's stealing. Mr. Burns and his sunshield must be your best pals.

Re:What Next?

[arose]

Have to deal with? Weren't all the draconical copyright advocates advocating not using what you don't like?!

Re:What Next?

[tepples]

offloading program functionality to custom per-application hardware like this is a very interesting idea, but in my experience, protection coders seem to be quite conservative ( and halfhearted )

Then why was the practice so common on the Super NES? Pilotwings, Mario Kart, and several other games used the DSP-1; Star Fox, Stunt Race FX, and Doom used the Super FX; Kirby Super Star and Super Mario RPG used the SA-1; Mega Man X2 and Mega Man X3 used the C4; and Star Ocean and Street Fighter Alpha 2 used the S-DD1.

Re:What Next?

[YOU LIKEWISE FAIL IT]

As I said, I can only speak from my experience, and I've only analysed copy protection schemes on Windows, Linux & Mac. If you don't mind me asking some questions, were these moves to DSP actualy copy protection methods, or ways to work around system limitations? And also, how much did they end up adding to cartridge fabbing costs?

Re:What Next?

[Frogbert]

I work in the manufacturing industry and I can tell you right now that a lot of expensive programs designed for CNC work and the like are protected by some very advanced dongles.

Dongles serve as very good protecton on software that may only have 2000 customers worldwide. If implemented correctly they can throughly protect a peice of software from most in house programmers.

That said the wider the distribution of the software the more likely it will be cracked. I believe whilst dongles are a more powerful security measure they only work when the distribution of the software is low.

Re:What Next?

[tepples]

were these moves to DSP actualy copy protection methods, or ways to work around system limitations?

Both. If PCs had an external PCI slot, the beginning of 3D accelerated video would have been different, with combination video accelerators and copyright enforcement dongles sitting in the slot.

Re:What Next?

[rhuntley12]

That's my opinion on it. Whine about piracy? Make a game that doesn't suck. If you're game does suck, make it a budget title. Tons of games out there would have pissed me off at $50 but didn't bother me at $20. You ever bought a game that promised the world and delivered a bag of dog $hit? Ever trid to return said game?

Re:What Next?

[k98sven]

I wouldn't cry too much - piracy is going to hurt the publishers of weak games worst, 'cos everyone can find out that it sucks before it goes on sale

Which leads to the further polarization of the games industry, with the top 10% of games making up 90% of sales (or some disproportion like that).

Which means fewer games will return a profit. Which means the risk is greater. Which means that the investors, e.g. the game producers, will be less and less willing to take risks on games which differ from the existing top 10%.

So if you think that's an OK rationale, the don't bitch about how games are getting less and less innovative.

Re:What Next?

[GigsVT]

the sense of entitlement amazes me. "it's inconvenient for me to reach a bit to my CD drive, so i'm gonna find a way around it, as i cannot be inconvenienced whatsoever since i've paid for the software."

Well, hell yeah I have a sense of entitlement!

If I bought a car, and the turn signal was in an inconvienent place, I'd feel very entitled to install a new switch somewhere else on the car. It's my car.

Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

This happens with every single game that comes out. Why all of a sudden is this huge news? Back in the days of doom and quake games were pirated days and weeks before their release. Granted, lately it's been sometimes the day of or a day after the game has been released to retail that a game gets pirated, but this isn't news people. It's been happening for 10+ years. One thing that has changed, is how easy it is for people not involved in the "scene" to get these releases. Before you used to have to know the right people, nowadays all you need to do is load up the latest p2p app and anyone can find it.

Re:Has been happening for years

[WormholeFiend]

this could signal an incoming wave of repressive measures against pirated software websites...

although I don't know how that would deal with Usenet-based piracy...

Re:Has been happening for years

[Rik Sweeney]

It's been happening for 10+ years. One thing that has changed, is how easy it is for people not involved in the "scene" to get these releases.

The other thing is that it's now cool to play video games.

That and the fact that it's also big business.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest iteration of the Hitman series took about a week after retail release to get leaked. That's probably due to the fact that around the same time a few groups around the world just got most of their hardware impounded by law enforcement. So if these companies want to maintain the illusion that they lose millions of sales because of piracy, they should just sponser world wide hardware repoing right around the time of release. It's doubtful that Half Life 2 will be leaked before November 16, so that's the perfect opportunity for Vivendi and Valve to team up and halt the spread of the game by a week or two.

Re:Has been happening for years

[SuperBanana]

This happens with every single game that comes out. Why all of a sudden is this huge news?

Probably because marketing people have figured out that only big games are news when they're pirated, so now they try and make sure everyone knows when their game is pirated, because then people will think "oh, it must be big if it was pirated before it's even on the shelves! There must be a lot of demand, it must be an awesome game!"

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the software companies made it quite easy for a pristine copy to make its way into the hands of someone who will post it all over the place, simply for the press and to get word of mouth going by having people play it and ramp up the hype about it.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

Usenet-based stuff would be much easier to shutdown as it requires a powerful central server (usually an ISP). Most p2p servers can be run off a cable modem.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

Before you used to have to know the right people, nowadays all you need to do is load up the latest p2p app and anyone can find it.

Amen to that. I haven't pirated a game in ages, but years ago when I did pirate, it was about who you knew. It's amazing how much of a social engineerer task it was to find some of the newer and yet to be releases games (and music). That seemed most relevant to me on Hotline servers, when half the servers were as underground as they could be, and the other half had people clicking banners and finding the password for the guest download user. Although it's funny that today I don't pirate, yet I still have all those connections and can find all kinds of shit long before it's released (now most good Hotline hosts have moved to KDX).

Re:Has been happening for years

[protektor]

It has been rumored for years that game companies have privately supported limited pirating of their lesser known titles to help them get promoted.

In fact I know of one business application that a company created and knew it was being pirated and turned a blind eye to it, in hopes that it would get the application more exposure to the corporate types who would actually buy it, so they got the support.

In another case I know of a vertical market application that one of the salesmen gave to a pirate group in order to help it get more exposure and get the company's name out there.

So I know of 2 cases and probably more where this happens.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

there is no usenet piracy, all piracy happens on p2p!!!

usenet is just full of helpfull informations, just browse groups.google.com - no single warez file! mkay :)

Re:Has been happening for years

[ALpaca2500]

come on... everybody who's anybody knows about usenet. that includes riaa, mpaa, software publishers, etc. they have to know. that being said, use of usenet for piracy must not be that big of a threat compared to p2p networks, or else i'm sure they'd be all over it like they are p2p...

Re:Has been happening for years

[SpyPlane]

People have been talking for years how Kinetix does that very thing with 3DSMax.

College student pirates 3DStudio Max.
College student ACTUALLY learns how to use it.
College student LIKES it and gets good at it.
College student graduates and goes to work somewhere, he eventually demands to work with 3DStudio Max because that is what he is most familiar with.

I'm not sure about the validity of the logic behind that, but who knows. The rips of 3DSMax have always been particularly early and clean rips, so it might be true. I certainly never would have used a $2000+ software package in college if not for piracy.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Anonymous Coward]

This is news because rockstar paid the publication to print the story they sent them.

Re:Has been happening for years

[Actionable Mango]

but this isn't news people. It's been happening for 10+ years There's been conflict in the middle east for 1000+ years... this isn't news, people!!

Re:Has been happening for years

[leshert]

Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me if the software companies made it quite easy for a pristine copy to make its way into the hands of someone who will post it all over the place, simply for the press and to get word of mouth going by having people play it and ramp up the hype about it.

I'm not saying this is the case with GTA:SA, but this is something that's been discussed for years:

Alternately, prepare a version that almost works, but shows defects that cause unplayability, oh, about a third of the way through the game (assuming 40 hours of playability). Make the defects such that they could be attributed to either a bad copy or slightly-working DRM, rather than actual code errors.

Leak _that_, get people playing it (and liking it), and then they'll be more likely to buy it once the "failure" happens, if the "real" DRM is good enough to create a disincentive to actual copying.

It's really just a sneakier way to market a demo, because its "forbidden" nature makes it more irresistable, it allows the company to generate more press then "yet another demo" would, and also continues the story arc of "woe is us due to piracy".

[Incidentally, some homegrown DRM schemes in published games have done exactly this for actual illegal copies. When a copy is detected, it doesn't stop play immediately; it only makes it impossible to play the game through to completion, either by subtly "breaking" the gameplay or else by waiting until a specific point in the game and then letting the player know explicitly that the copy has been detected, and the game won't be finishable. Deferring notification of detection turns the game into a very effective crippled demo. If I recall correctly, Spyro or Spyro 2 did this, from reading a development team post-mortem, and I remember there was a game back in the black-and-white Mac days that would play normally for a time, then display the message "Piracy is a very serious offense." and exit.)

Re:Has been happening for years

[Flunitrazepam]

"The other thing is that it's now cool to play video games."

It is? Where do you live?

Serves'em right for no PC version

[Anonymous Coward]

Stupid consoles.

Ohhh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

A game about robbing and stealing and wrackage and mayhem leaks out for everyone to steal. It is beautiful.

Re:Ohhh the irony

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?
Baldric: Yah, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.

What problem?

[Quill]

However, it is already clear [...] piracy is becoming an increasingly common and serious problem for both gamers and the games industry.

I have never condemmned piracy, but "a problem for gamers" - what kind of tripe is this?

Actually, I see their point. The game publishers try to combat piracy with more draconian copy protection. This *is* a problem for gamers. The gamers who legitimately paid for their game. Not for those who download a cracked version.

Re:What problem?

[LaundroMat]

Copy protection for something that hasn't hit the market yet.

Re:What problem?

[Trigun]

How about the gamers that won't be able to play the games because companies will stop producing the games on the PC because it's too easy to pirate? Or the gamers whose favorite franchise shuts down because it's been pirated to death? Or how about all gamers once companies start rushing games to market in months rather than years in an attempt to beat the piracy logistically?

It hurts all gamers. Even if you think that the games are too expensive, or that corporations are evil, if we keep this up, we'll all get what we deserve.

Re:What problem?

[harrkev]

You are correct, but there is more to the picture.

Game development is a *business*. That means that they are in this *to make money*. They have employees, rent, etc.

So, if piracy costs them sales, then they have to raise the price to compensate. Or perhaps they decide NOT to make that cool new experimental game which might be a big hit or it might flop. "Let's just stick to making another FPS. Not too original, but it will sell like hotcakes."

So, if there were no piracy, you might find slightly less expensive games, as well as a larger variety.

One thing to consider, however, is how many of those pirated copies represent lost sales. I bet that many people will pirate to get it now, and then buy it when it is on a shelf. Many other might pirate it, but would not have purchased it any event. Since it is difficult to do a survey of people downloading warez, we will never really know how many downloaded copies actually represent lost sales (my guess is about 1/4 or so).

Re:What problem?

[L.Torvalds]

I'll be a problem for games if Rockstar Games doesn't make a profit. No profit=no sequel or other good game from them.

I can justify downloading a copy to use as a 'demo', but if you like the game, and don't pay for it, you are a theiving shithead.

Re:What problem?

[Quill]

One thing to consider, however, is how many of those pirated copies represent lost sales.

Exactly. I was being cynical in my remark, but I had considered the lost sales argument. Ultimately, however, I believe that a statistically insignicant number of sales will be "lost" due to this.

If your guess of 1/4 was correct, this would be devastating to the industry, and I don't think it to be a likely number for the PC industry let alone for the PS2 where - correct me if I'm wrong - you'd need special hardware to burn a disk, plus a modded console.

I know a few dozen people with consoles and only one that has a mod chip, and that's just for imports (okay, pirated imports, but still - he pays for the domestic stuff).

Re:What problem?

[stanmann]

And if there were slightly less expensive games and a larger variety, there would be more buyers, piracy or not. Every person who downloads before he buys, contributes to the higher quality games being produced and reduces.... I'm not arguing for or against piracy, just attempting to introduce logic. FWIW, Doom3 has its roots FIRMLY in the try before you buy arena.

Re:What problem?

[harrkev]

Not quite true.

I don't know about you, but I am on a limited income. I make good money, but between supporting a wife and two kids, paying off student loans, mortgates, etc., I do not find a lot of money left over for buying games.

Sooo, if a larger variety of less expensive games suddenly came out, I would not be able to sudddenly double the amount of money that I spend. People on a limited income find it difficult to spend more. People with lots of disposable income will probably buy Doom 3 if it is $55 or $45.

Re:What problem?

[DarkSarin]

so says the man witt the linuxisforfags email address.

Look, I don't like the current state of copyright in this country. I also don't think that those who accessed the game initially are right. It may or may not be theft, but it is certainly immoral. It is their property, after all, and they have the right to do whatever they like with it.

As far as it being theft or not, think of it this way--if it were east Antarticans (fictional) sneaking in and taking a copy of the United States plans for a nuclear missile, I think most everyone would agree that it was theft, even if they left everything intact at the facility. This is the same thing, even if it is just a game.

Now, the difference is once it has been published. At that point, I do think that fair use is fine, and I do believe that a person has a right to do whatever they like with it, so long as they don't make money off it. Share it with a friend? Fine, just don't sell it.

If I had the money, I would never pirate anything. Being on the lower side of the economy at the moment (graduate school ain't cheap, and doesn't pay too great, neither), I have occasionally used a game that would be considered pirated. I don't right now, because I simply don't have time for much in the way of games.

The same is true for music--if I like an album, I buy it--supporting good music is important. I know lots of people who are into the indie scene, but generally I like certain artists, and I buy their stuff, regardless (examples: Vanessa Mae, Bare Naked Ladies, They Might Be Giants) of the publisher. Do I like the RIAA? Not at all. But I will support specific bands that happen to use that publishing route because I think it sends a message about what music is worth having.

I also use iTunes. Why? Because it is really quite useful, it works, and it supports an alternative distribution model. I do wish the artists got more from each download, but that's another story.

Now, as far as GTA:San Andreas itself is concerned? They can rot for all I care--that game is bad!

Re:What problem?

[csteinle]

As far as it being theft or not, think of it this way--if it were east Antarticans (fictional) sneaking in and taking a copy of the United States plans for a nuclear missile, I think most everyone would agree that it was theft, even if they left everything intact at the facility. This is the same thing, even if it is just a game.

No it's not. It's espionage. It doesn't change the legal and moral implications, but if you're discussing semmantices, it's not theft.

Re:What problem?

[bs_testability]

None of them set their prices to achieve a certain profit margin.
They set their prices to what they will beleive the market will bear in order to maximize their profits.
If people would rather steal it than buy it, they are holding the price higher than demand justifies.
Having a copy of the game stolen is the same market influence as a lost sale.
They're just using laws to prop up legitimized price fixing.

Re:What problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

No we won't actually, but nice FUD.

Re:What problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

PC Gamer magazine has an article this month about how, with the releases of Doom 3, Half Life 2 and the Sims 2, industry watchers expect 2004 to be a year of record sales for the software games industry.

If piracy is such a huge problem threatening everyone's livelihoods, how can this be?

Re:What problem?

[rpillala]

Game development is a *business*. That means that they are in this *to make money*. They have employees, rent, etc.

So, if piracy costs them sales, then they have to raise the price to compensate. Or perhaps they decide NOT to make that cool new experimental game which might be a big hit or it might flop. "Let's just stick to making another FPS. Not too original, but it will sell like hotcakes."

At one time, businesses existed to make a product, not solely to make a profit. And do you really think that popular games are less subject to piracy than experimental ones? As in "if we make just another FPS no one will pirate it and our profits will be safe"? It's true that big publishers abandoned innovation in favor of sequels and extending franchises. I won't agree that piracy was a major factor in this decision. More likely greed: putting profits ahead of products.

Re:What problem?

[stanmann]

I understand. I buy 3-10 new(to me) games per year, BUT I don't spend more than $25 on a game at Walmart, bestbuy, circuit city, etc. I also buy another 10-20 games on the clearance, discount, used racks at EB, etc for $3-10. I'm not on that limited an income since I just pre-ordered the RotK extended premium, that I likely will watch once or twice a year. but I understand.

Re:What problem?

[indianajones428]

I bet that many people will pirate to get it now, and then buy it when it is on a shelf.


If I were to pirate it (what, me pirate?), it'd just be to get a bit of the storyline. I don't think I could ever seriously play a GTA game on anything other than the PS2.

Re:What problem?

[__aadkof7200]

I honestly don't believe that piracy has driven the prices of games up considering that brand new PSX games were $49.99 when the PSX debuted. $50 has always been around the standard for new release PC and console games. I believe that SEGA has set a new precedent with their 2K5 sports titles being $19.99. I haven't seen their sales reports, but they would be interesting I am sure.

Re:What problem?

[supergnom]

What I would like to see is a game that allows "non-media spreading". On startup, you get a question "You're not a registered user Register [now] [later]". Of course, if you didn't actually buy the game, you can pay for it when registering. You didn't give them any distribution, printing, pressing costs, so why do they keep insisting? Keeping the game witout a CD/DVD, box, manual and shipping would also remove customs on import, hence becoming cheap.

Re:What problem?

[bleckywelcky]

Similarly, I wonder how many people go to some major retailer like Walmart, buy the game, copy it, then return it for store credit (since the game is already open). Or has Walmart, etc, changed their policies on open software? I haven't been in places like that for a while. If you just keep doing this over and over then all you will have invested is the highest cost of any one of the games (say $50) as you keep buying-copying-returning-buy_another-copy-return ... etc.

Re:What problem?

[tepples]

I believe that SEGA has set a new precedent with their 2K5 sports titles being $19.99.

Nit: That's not entirely Sega; that's Disney. Disney owns ESPN and licenses the trademark to Sega. Given the exact wording of the copyright notices on the box, it seemed that Disney had quite a bit of creative control over the product.

Anyway, $20 per year (same price as a Disney DVD at Wal-Mart) seems about right for an annually replaced sport sim title, but don't think that this pricing decision will have any significant effect outside the Annually Replaced Sport Sim genres.

Re:What problem?

[CommieOverlord]

At one time, businesses existed to make a product, not solely to make a profit.

Business _always_ existed to make a profit; everything from small to big businesses. You need, however, a product in order to get the profit.

And do you really think that popular games are less subject to piracy than experimental ones?

They're all going to be pirated; here's the OP's point spelled a little more simplistically. Popular games make (usually) lots of profit. Income from experimental games are uncertain, and are usually a cash drain (using up profits from the hit games). If a publisher is losing money from piracy then they have less profits to offset the loss from the experimental games. Which means they can't make those games anymore.

It's not greed to generate profits. Without profits business cannot exist. That's what happened to the dotcom bust. There were products but no profits.

Re:What problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

so your saying we wont get a PC version because someone made a copy of the PS2 version?

Re:What problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually one major problem for gamers is that there's a lot of people that enjoy pirating the game AND spoiling the plot and so forth for others. Didn't you see the Halo 2 story and the comments for it?

TORRENT PLEASE

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like to "RTFM" this article, so a torrent link would be appreciated!

Thanks!

Sexism

[EggplantMan]

It's not surprising that the theft of this game is considered news on Slashdot, considering the demographics. This puerile offering will probably be the most 'action' that Slashdotters will get in their lives. And yet you wonder why there aren't women in tech, as you sit around in your jammies playing out your sexist fantasies on your gaming console??

Re:Sexism

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent "Correct, but *ever-so-slightly* over the top".

Re:Sexism

[Anonymous Coward]

Yessssss , wanking off in front of my PC while playing leisure suite Larry and cumming all over the keyboard, thats exactly what we do here! Sticky keyboard , sticky mouse !:) Sick sick fantasies. You would'nt believe how perverted us Geeks are, you'd better leave , it's not safe for you here!;)

Re:Sexism

[hkb]

Well, I'll have to disagree here. While you can "hire" hookers for a romp in a car, I have yet to do so. The only interaction I really enjoy with the hookers, is killing them -- preferably with a single shot from the sawed-off shotgun at close range.

Now, before you go on about sexism, realize that I do not discriminate and really, I shoot anything in the game that moves -- be it hookers or businessmen or cops. I spent a half hour shooting out the windows of a skyscraper once, with a sniper rifle.

My sister is even more addicted to the game than I am. My mom is also known to enjoy playing.

This is El Burro of the Rockstar Diablos.

[AntonyBartlett]

A thieving opportunist has stolen a van of my latest publication hot off the press! But that SPANKED-up idiot has left the rear doors open and now my, artistically violent, tastefully desctructive video game is being dropped all over the Internet. Persue that trail of illegal copies diligently and aggressively collecting evidence as you go. When you've followed the trail to that thieving SPANK-head, waste him.

Re:This is El Burro of the Rockstar Diablos.

[Anonymous Coward]

That mission is a bitch! The van handles like crap.

Re:This is El Burro of the Rockstar Diablos.

[iabervon]

It would be really amusing if they found out who leaked San Andreas and used his likeness for a big villian in the next game. Punish the pseudo-theft of a video game with a virtual lynching.

Re:This is El Burro of the Rockstar Diablos.

[Anonymous Coward]

Hehe... I always just pushed the van to the end point of the mission before getting in. The van usually explodes when you try it, but ehhhhhhh.

Cry me a fscking river

[jeffasselin]

"Nothing to see here, move along", as they say...

There's nothing new here. The warez scene has been doing -1 and 0-day releases forever. I've seen -7 releases before. They're getting a bit better, and I suspect some of the biggest networks are probably paying people to do the leaks, which helps things.

This is news only because the game has been widely publicized. This happens all the time.

Re:Cry me a fscking river

[blueZhift]

Absolutely! These leaks are happening too often for it to just be some random occurences. This is part of the whole marketing package now. Someone's definitely getting paid for this stuff. Besides, there aren't that many modded consoles out there and players willing or able to mod them. So a "leaked" console game (if it needs a modded console) isn't going to cost too many sales in territories where there isn't already rampant piracy.

Now all of that being said, I wonder if it's cooler to play a pirated copy of a game about murder and mayhem? Do the chicks dig it?

Re:Cry me a fscking river

[bleckywelcky]

I don't know about chicks digging it, but imagine if you had the game for this weekend. You could load it up for a Friday evening or Saturday afternoon/evening jam session. Invite all your buds over for some beer and snacks, hang out and watch some TV, shoot the breeze, and waste some hookers on GTA:SA. You could burn a few copies of it and have half the people playing it either on PCs or PS2s (or even a projector if you've got one). It would be awesome to have a party and play a game like that before it is even available to buy.

Re:Cry me a fscking river

[Anonymous Coward]

I saw N64 games get leaked a month before release. Nintendo would give out pre-releases to reporters, game stores, etc. They thought the carts were hard to copy, but since the games were only 20-30 MB, they were real easy to spread online if you had a copier.

The funniest thing that happened was some guy actually walked into a Toys R Us with a Z64 (copier), unscrewed the display case, copied a game (donkey kong demo), then put it back in the case. Nobody noticed this, but the guard at the door asked him about what he was carrying. It didn't look like one of their products though, so they didn't stop him. LOL.

Re:Cry me a fscking river

[mink]

please explain to me the magic of getting the PS2 version of GTA:SA to play on a PC, as I do not have a chipped playstation this download would be useless.

(note to the clueless I'm being sarcastic in my reply and even if the PC version was leaked would not download it)

As for chipped Ps2 availability do you know how hard it is to chip one? It's not easy like a PSX was, and even the chips that only allow import play (not copies) are dificult to install.

Please don't copy it.

[Rogerborg]

Look, I know a guy who's working on it, a really decent man. He has a wife, a child, and another on the way. If you copy this instead of buying it, you're contributing to putting him out of a job just when he needs one the most.

This isn't a theoretical issue. Rockstar aren't some faceless cartel. Please. Do the right thing this time.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[pagal_paanda]

Alright, alright, I'll listen to the poster and won't copy it. Due to the magnificent achievements in technology, I'll just run it through virtual drive. Man, I just saved two (3?) empty CDs.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[GigsVT]

Look, I know a guy who's working on it, a really decent man. He has a wife, a child, and another on the way.

What about all the good things hitler did?

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Look, I know a guy who's working on it, a really decent man. He has a wife, a child, and another on the way.

1) That's what you get when you have sex, it's his own fault.
2) You are lying. If he is having sex, he can't be a programmer.
3) What do you mean by "know", hmm? Wink, wink, nudge, nudge, say no more!

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't most game companies sack 90% of the team directly after finishing the game?

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Oddly_Drac]

"Rockstar aren't some faceless cartel."

No, faceless cartels tend to refer to themselves with simple geographic codes, whereas Rockstar...oh, wait...

"you're contributing to putting him out of a job just when he needs one the most."

Rockstar is doing great from the GTA series. You may have noticed them acquiring various studios.

While I sympathise with your sentiment, please understand that it's sentiment.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[DeathByDuke]

the poster has a point, plus we dont know if hes sarcastic or not, but i think hes telling the truth. I download demos or full games, but to see if i like them. Ones I like, I buy. And I always buy my games when they are down in price, i.e 6 months after release they go from £35 to £20, so hes still going to get his money. (PS, I'm a student, hence full price is a huge dent on my spending capacity.) I own all my favourite games, Doom series, Quake series, Homeworld series, Dues Ex (not 2, thank god i tested it out first), both Serious Sams, GTA 1-3, UT series (2004 DVD was a godsend, £25 instead of £40 normal price, hell, 6 CD version was £30) Age of Empires series etc. I've always bought what I love the most. My next purchase is going to be Rise of Nations and its expansion as soon as they do a double pack. (not seen one yet). I may be considered a 'evil' downloader, but the good games still get their money.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[stanmann]

Don't bother renting it from blockbuster, or borrowing it from a friend either. YOU must own your own copy.

And if you decide to download it before you buy it, you are also evil.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[His name cannot be s]

Yes.... Think of the children... My GOD! Will Someone Please Think Of The CHILDREN? ...

That being said, it is important to note that while the people who work on these games, producing that which gives so many fun hours to gamers are working for companies that tend to treat the customers like lepers.

Copy protection has NEVER been a deterrent to copying a game. Copy protection hurts only legitamate users. People who want to copy that game are going to figure a way around whether it is easy or not is not something they care about.

When I bought Civ3 gold, (really the only game I play) I found it had some dumbass, lame disc protection. Well, the first thing I did was image it, and toss it into DaemonTools, turned on the protection stuff, and away it went.

So how does that stop me from copying it? I was able to circumvent it with less that 5 minutes of effort, and with no other software than I had already. The trouble is, now I have to go through the motions of mounting the fucking image before I play. I should just find a no-cd crack, but that's a hassle too. Especially if you don't like to wade through the spyware infested pornholes that these things are found in.

Some retarded asshole in these game companies is thinking that the copy protection saved them even one pirated copy, that it would be worth it. Well, it didn't! It would be very very easy.

One of the other factors I note, is that a large number of software development houses are VASTLY underlicensed for their development tools. Hell, one place I did code audits for was using a cracked version of terminal services for crying out loud. It's nice to think of the poor, downtrodden developers in these companies, but they can (but obviously not always) be as guilty as those who rip off their wares.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[(trb001)]

Mod this man +1:Funny.

If you honestly think that GTA:SA won't sell an absolutely absurd number of copies, making everyone associated with Rockstar a ton of money, you're deluding yourself. I do not worry for this man's family. But to make you feel better, I'm either going to buy it or have someone get it for me for Christmas.

--trb

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Anonymous Coward]

What about all the good things hitler did?

You are seriously comparing a game developer to Adolf Hitler? I knew there were some idiots on /., but Jesus...

Re:Please don't copy it.

[SansTinfoilHat]

Copy protection has NEVER been a deterrent to copying a game. Copy protection hurts only legitamate users. People who want to copy that game are going to figure a way around whether it is easy or not is not something they care about.

It's not a matter of deterring copiers forever, but only until the lion's share of the games have been sold.

One of the more interesting articles I ve found about this is here: http://www.gamasutra.com/features/20011017/dodd_01 .htm

Re:Please don't copy it.

[vasqzr]

How is this different from downloading the latest album from Green Day?

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice troll. Of all the games that are being released in the fall, there's no way that piracy is going to hurt a GTA.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[lowe0]

Well, Green Day's members are probably fairly well paid, but if we're talking about, say, a new Local H or Lucky Boys Confusion album, it becomes a slightly different story.

(Of course, LBC just got dropped from Elektra, so hopefully the next time I buy an album of theirs, they'll see a little more of the dough.)

Re:Please don't copy it.

[dubstar]

How is this different from downloading the latest album from Green Day?

Well duh, it's different because he doesn't know any of the Green Day programmers!

Seriously though.. His friend may not realize it, but it may be in his best interests to lose his job anyways. This may be his last chance to save his children before they grow up and go on their own shooting spree. So please, for the sake of the children, download GTA:SA NOW!!!.

/sarcasm off

I highly doubt anyone at Rockstar with be losing their job due to piracy of this game. Maybe due to the game being finished and the project being complete though. Rockstar will continue to make truckloads of cash, and continue to be sued for buttloads of cash, and at the end of the day they will still retain... a pantload of cash. I also have my doubts as to whether any of the actual developers themselves will see much of that money though.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[GigsVT]

Heh, no. I'm merely pointing out the absurdity of claiming that simply because one of the developers has kids, that he's some saint, and people shouldn't pirate the game solely for that reason!

Re:Please don't copy it.

[danila]

Oh, so he is participating in some profit-sharing scheme? Or is he being paid the salary like all good programmers are. If it's the latter, I don't think it makes any difference whether we pirate the game or not.

P.S. In any case, most of those who pirate do it because they are not rich enough to buy the game. If they can afford 3 games per year, they buy these 3 games and who is harmed if they also pirate 10 more?

Re:Please don't copy it.

[lendude]

"The trouble is, now I have to go through the motions of mounting the fucking image before I play."

What motions? Just leave the iso mounted, set DT to automount and DT doesn't even have to be started prior to running up the game. Zero, zip, zilch going thru' motions.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Politburo]

Small world, these internets.

You know full well that people act in their best interests and not in the interests of others, so I can't help but think that this is a troll.. but I'm bored at work and I don't go to the other site that much anymore (not at all at work, at least.. I still stop by once a day usually).

Anyway, the problem I see with your argument is that it could be used for a multitude of situations that do not involve breaking the law.. 'Don't buy a Japanese car, it may put your neighbor who works at the Ford plant out of a job,' 'Don't shop at Wal-Mart, it may put your neighbor who runs the corner store out of a job,' etc.

If people stop pirating games, it may put the people who enforce DMCA and come up with copy protection schemes out of jobs. So, based on your original argument, why should one stop pirating?

Re:Please don't copy it.

[wibald]

That's right. Don't copy it. Buy a pirated copy from a street vender. After all, he has a family to support, too.

Re:Please don't copy it.

[bbuR_bbuB]

I know a guy working on this game, and he's a genuine jackass. Pirate the game, please! Put him in the poorhouse!

Re:Please don't copy it.

[Brama]

If he didn't have a wife and kids, it would be okay though?

this aint new(s)

[Errtu76]

However, it is already clear that with four of the year's top games--GTA: San Andreas, Halo 2, Doom 3, and Half-Life 2---being posted online before their official releases, piracy is becoming an increasingly common and serious problem for both gamers and the games industry.

I agree that it's a problem with piracy. It definately looks like it's becoming an increasingly problem. But it's not. Just because these four games happen to be on every geek's wishlist they get noticed. Look at how many games are pirated and available for download well before their official release date, and you don't hear about those. If they're so concerned with piracy, restrict access (for employees) to the games so that as few people as possible have the final product in hand. Or register the cd keys (or whatever security system you use) to your employees. If you see a copy appear on the internet with one of those keys (because creating a keygen is a little more work) you know who was the leak.

Re:this aint new(s)

[Anonymous Coward]

Exactly..

The problem has always been there.. its just the 'scene' is not so underground anymore, if full of p2p peeps, that have no respect for the 'scene'.

Now, im not saying its right, but it used to be only a select few(thousands) who worked for the right to access the warez. Now any leech can get at it..

And that what keeps dragging it into the public domain.. exactly where is shouldn't be.

Most people in teh 'scene' don't even download or play 99% of the games, its not the point.. Its just a race for kudos.

Re:this aint new(s)

[l0rd]

Even better would be to just watermark the game. If watermarks were put in arbitrary places, there would be no way (read, a small chance) that a time crippled cracker could get all of them. After all, if the release takes too long it's not zero day any more.

Of course, any one of the programmers can grep the watermark code out of the game, but if you can't trust your programmers, then who can you trust?

if only I had mod points

[Anonymous Coward]

Very nice.

Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

I'd like a clarification of your position.

Do you consider this behavior not immoral? Or do you just have a beef with the term 'theft'?

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you consider this behavior not immoral? Or do you just have a beef with the term 'theft'?

It's not theft plain and simple. There is a constant misuse of the word in the media because of companies using scare tactics.

Theft is the act of physically depriving someone of a piece of their property. By me copying and downloading and then spreading their product I haven't denied them of anything.

Hopefully Rockstar is listening. I WILL NOT BUY YOUR PRODUCTS AGAIN UNTIL YOU CHANGE YOUR TACTICS.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Whether or not you are a thief remains open. You are however an immoral jackass.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

I'll just steal it. And by steal it, I mean making a digital reproduction of it, so you're technically not losing anything tangible, unless you count cash as tangible.

Sure it's a gray area, so I'll just convolute it. Something was taken from the manufacturing plant, but I didn't do it, so it's not theft on my part.

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

By me copying and downloading and then spreading their product I haven't denied them of anything.

Amazingly ignorant comment. You are denying them the profit they have a right to. No one has a right to possess a copy of the game if they have not received it through legit means. This whole theft/copyright infringment argument is tiring, because the end result is that people are breaking the law. Theft is not the wrong word to use, it's just that the definition of the word is dated. Good luck trying to bring webster's dictionary into court to try and protect yourself.

Grow up. Piracy is wrong and it does cost the industry jobs and a lot of money (although not as much as they claim).

Re:Clarification

[paule9984673]

hahaha...the profit they have a right to. Stop dreaming of communism, dude.

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

Communism? It's called capitalism.

If a company creates a product and is selling this product, and you have a copy of the product, whether physical or digital, then you are required to have paid for this product (or have received it through other legitimate means).

If you were balking at my use of "profit"... think of revenue instead.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

the profit they have a right to

A word of advice, steer clear of flawed statements like this. Nobody has a "right" to profit.

However, by infringing their copyrights (getting the game without paying for it), you have obtained their game _illegally_, and if you are participating in mass copyright infringement, it's a _criminal_ offence in the UK.

Theft _is_ the wrong word to use. Theft is a completely different crime from copyright infringement. You will not be prosecuted for theft. If you go to court, they won't say "theft" or "stolen" once. They'll prosecute you for "copyright infringement", and they'll use phrases like "massively infringed" and "duplicated without authorisation".

Copyright infringement is a much better phrase than "theft" or "piracy", because it also works for Free Software. Only copyright law stops people from taking free code and making it non-free. If we tried to say they "stole" our code, they'd retort "hah! how can you steal something that's free?". As you can see, "steal" is an extremely poor word choice for copyright infringement.

If you were to actually steal GTA, you'd do that by going into the shops when it is released and physically stealing the box from the shelf or the game discs from the stock drawers.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

>>
Theft is the act of physically depriving someone of a piece of their property. By me copying and downloading and then spreading their product I haven't denied them of anything.

If you're against copyright law, maybe you should write a book on it. After it's repealed, see how your profits go.

-winterlens (who moderated already)

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Good luck trying to bring webster's dictionary into court to try and protect yourself.

I'm not sure if you have already realized this, but I think you just picked court as an example where rational common-sense thinking wins over the letter of some mindless book.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

No one has a "right" to profit. Numbnutz

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Welcome to human nature ideal boy. A right is something you just have like liberty and happiness. It is not profit, revenue or any other greed centric objective. If people can get what you produce for nothing, they will, live with it or go broke trying to stop it. If you dont like that dont produce anything, you have a right to choose.

Re:Clarification

[DarkOx]

Your ignorate too. I am not a lawyer but a crime has five material elements, and with a few exceptions all must be well defined and all must happen for the crime to be complete. I am not certain but I think IP theft is the result of legal precedent claiming it is a form of larceny. Precedent can be over turned.

Lets look at some Larceny elements as the pretain to IP theft:

Actus Reus: The takeing and carring away of anothers property, permenantly.

First what is the property is it the money you would have paid for the IP or the IP itself. If its the money you never gave it or title to it to them, they never had possetion or proximate possesion in anycase so you could not take it from them. Cleary no complete act. If its the IP then is it possible to deprive them over it "permenantely" they still have copies that they can still use/sell and you are going to delete it at some point, right even if it is years later?

the other releveant element as I see it is
the Harm: loss of property.

Well they never had the money so could not loose it. It can be argued they stil have their property so there is no loss of property. I am not saying there is not loss, there is a loss of opertunity to collect money from the pirate but the law says loss of property and I think we might resonabl say there is no such loss, if we say an oppertunity is not property.

As to the definition being out data well tough luck. We have a right to due process of law and that means you have to follow the law as it is writen, even if that means acts we really feel are criminal can not be punished. That is a case where we need to change the law then, not invent some streched interpretation to suit the situation. There either needs to be new laws or elements of larceny specifically relating to electronic property or their does not, that is something for society as a whole to decide with the legislature not some judge to invent. Hopefully some day some case will make it high enough up and get this stuiped and I feel incorrect precedent over turned. Then we can create new law or decide not to do so.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Your ignorate too.

Way to really drive home your point.

And you didn't need to tell us that you're not a lawyer. It's blatantly obvious in your post.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

It's an implicit 'right' that follows from other rights. If someone excersizes his rights to deprive you from profiting, they take over and you obviously don't have the right to profit in that case, but when someone does so with an unlawful deed, it's fairly valid to say that this 'right' has been stomped over.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

If you dont like that dont produce anything, you have a right to choose.


Yeah, and all the youngsters out there thinking it's so cool to download games for free have failed to learn from the past (Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it...) Piracy *killed* several platforms in the past, as stated by the companies when they shut down their development groups for software for those platforms. Piracy was so rampant that the software companies couldn't recover the cost of paying developers to port/write for that platform. The logical choice was to stop writing/porting their software to that platform.

It's real cool to download stuff for free, but the very people who do this will be the ones who cry the loudest when game companies stop producing games because of piracy and lost revenue.

It's real cool to download pirated copies of games. You'd better enjoy the latest GTA and Halo2 to the fullest because it may be the last that comes out.

Re:Clarification

[geoffspear]

Well, you have to admit that it's not often you run into many Americans who can spell better in Latin than in English.

Re:Clarification

[untaken_name]

It's real cool to download stuff for free, but the very people who do this will be the ones who cry the loudest when game companies stop producing games because of piracy and lost revenue.

I've been hearing that ever since the great Wing Commander 2 scandal back in the day. You're ignoring two very important facts: Piracy has existed as long as have products to pirate, and there are still so many people paying for games that there is absolutely no danger that they will stop being produced.

If game piracy is such a big problem, how did video games overtake Hollywood as the largest source of entertainment revenue in the US?
This pointless debate is eternal. Some people do not pay for games. Some people do. There is sufficient demand for games to make them extremely profitable if they are written, distributed, and marketed properly. Saying that games should be free is just as insipid and unlikely as saying that everyone should pay for every copy of every game ever played. That isn't how the world works, and the key word is 'works'. For fuck's sake, could we all just shut up about it now, please?

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

It's completely legal to download any software and try it out for 24-hours. That's the law.

And 24-hours doesn't mean just one full day, you can play it for an hour a day for 3.5 weeks if you want.

Once your 24-hours is up, you must delete it or download it again.

Re:Clarification

[mahdi13]

there are still so many people paying for games that there is absolutely no danger that they will stop being produced.

Ever hear of a company called LokiGames?
They didn't go out of business because they made crappy products that nobody wanted. They went out of business because people were stealing their product and not paying for it.

If you want something, pay for it and stop being a whiny little kid that must have it without paying because you think you deserve since you are 'special' or better then everyone else

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

That is absolutely false. Man, I thought these type of "warez" myths died out years ago.

And 24-hours doesn't mean just one full day, you can play it for an hour a day for 3.5 weeks if you want.

I don't like to say this often, but you're a complete idiot.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Ok, what else do you call illegally taking or gaining access to a companies product without the company's permission, with out paying for the product, and you benefiting from their hard work without giving them anything back?

I bet the only reason people keep arguing this is because they do not like the truth attached to the words theft/stealing/etc. "Copy right infringement" sounds so much nicer then theft/stealing/etc. Plus you love to twist things around, derail the real issue, and weasel you way out of things when discussing this, and I expect with my initial point you will do this.

For example, you bring up free software open source for comparison where unlike a retail product, it is clear that free software and open source gives you permission to copy as long as you follow their rules. So just like you say it isn't fair to call "copy right infringement" stealing, it isn't fair to claim that free software and open source can be seen as or called "staling" when they give you their permission to use their code and programs for free.

Re:Clarification

[JaxGator75]

They stole their product??? Like shoplifting???

Also, do we ave your permission if we don't "whine" or think we're "special" and "better"?

/I didn't know we were riding our high-horses today, otherwise I wouldn't have walked

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

You have no right to a profit.

Only the right to attempt to make a profit.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

These kinds of myths are not going to die, people need some kind of way to rationalize and justify their immoral actions, even if it is some made up law.

Re:Clarification

[drinkypoo]

If you wouldn't have bought it, and the people who distribute it to wouldn't have bought it, then they aren't losing anything, but they are gaining publicity. To me the problem is that people are now proud of pirating software where once they at least tried to keep it on the QT.

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

You are denying them the profit they have a right to.

Great - another corporations-have-a-right-to-profit thinker. Corporations don't have a right to profit; they have a right to do business but whether they make profit depends on how they do it - it's not their guaranteed right that they will! They don't have a right to any sales revenue either if people decide not to buy their products.

This whole theft/copyright infringment argument is tiring, because the end result is that people are breaking the law.

So are the corporations. Who makes non-compete agreements? Enforces illegal trade restrictions? Lies with creative accounting practices to avoid paying equal share of taxes? Is a member of a cartel, and engages in price-fixing taking customers' money by illegal means?

How many times have those corporations' actions been discussed in the news recently compared to the mp3 music "thieves" and "pirates?" How many times has Congress proposed any legislation recently to combat the situation compared to what they have proposed and enacted to combat the "pirates?"

Gimme a break - next thing you'll tell me is that corporations have a right to break the law. Because we already know they have a right to bribe the Congress to enact new ones, making common sense illegal.

Theft is not the wrong word to use, it's just that the definition of the word is dated.

OK, maybe "theft" is the right word to use. After all, corporations in the entertainment industry alone have stolen 100s of millions if not billions in U.S. dollars over time from consumers using illegal means.

Look, I am no "piracy shop" supporter, and I don't know much about the Rockstar and its products or how all this applies in this case, but, for a general statement that you are making, having a one-sided view as if corporations' "rights" to profit are being violated is very ignorant of the whole situation.

Re:Clarification

[Majik Sznak]

" Your ignorate too. I am not a lawyer but..."

Nor are you an English teacher, I guess.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

Being abusive doesn't change the facts, as long you are downloading software for review or educational purposes (with a 24 hour limit) YOU ARE BREAKING NO LAWS...

Indeed, if Rockstar are visiting "full version review sites" and breaking their agreements (reproduced below) then THEY are breaking the law, and should be prosecuted to the full extent possible.

If you are from the government or any other organization that is involved with stopping Illegal Software just go away and do not enter this site. The creator of this site takes NO responsibility or liability for anything that happens as a result of reading, viewing or downloading anything on this page or anything contained in subsequent pages. DISCLAIMER: Neither PS-FULL-REVIEW-GAMES.ORG , the creater of this website or my Host/ISP is responsible for what you do on this page and the following pages. Nothing is illegal the way that it is. This website is intended to be used for educational and entertainment purposes ONLY! Some of the links found inside may direct you to pages that contain questionable material and it is your choice what you do with such links. We only provide these links, like all the other websites, search-engines and portals. Your actions may cause you to break the law. If you do decide to download anything off one of the linked pages make sure that you are the sole owner of a proper license of that software and or you have the express written consent of the producer / software company and any related copyright holders. ENDORSEMENT: Reference herein to any specific commercial products, process, or service by trade name, trademark, manufacturer, or otherwise, does not necessarily constitute or imply its endorsement, recommendation, or favoring by this website. The views and opinions of authors expressed herein do not necessarily state or reflect those of this website, and shall not be used for advertising or product endorsement purposes. LIABILITY: With respect to documents available from this server, neither this Adultwebsite nor its creator, makes any warranty, express or implied, including the warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose, or assumes any legal liability or responsibility for the accuracy, completeness, or usefulness of any information, apparatus, product, or process disclosed, or represents that its use would not infringe privately owned rights . NOTICE: For controversial reasons, if you are affiliated with any government, ANTI-Piracy group or any other related group, or were formally a worker of one you CANNOT enter this web site, cannot access any of its files and you cannot view any of the webpages. If you enter this site you are not agreeing to these terms and you are violating code 431.322.12 of the Internet Privacy Act signed by Bill Clinton in 1995 and that means that you CANNOT threaten our ISP(s) or any person(s) or company storing these files, and cannot prosecute any person(s) affiliated with this page which includes family, friends or individuals who run or enter this web site. By continuing to enter this site, you are expressly and impliedly agreeing to all terms as stated above, and affirm that you are in compliance with all federal, state and local laws concerning the content of this site

Re:Clarification

[Medgur]

And only the aristocrats can afford to drink tea.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

"Gimme a break - next thing you'll tell me is that corporations have a right to break the law."

But you are arguing that since they broke the law, you have the right to break the law. Hell, Chevron spilled a bunch of oil off Alaska several years ago, they broke the law! That gives me the right to go to any Chevron station and take all the gas I want! They broke the law first!

Idiots

Re:Clarification

[mastagee]

If you were to actually steal GTA, you'd do that by going into the shops when it is released and physically stealing the box from the shelf or the game discs from the stock drawers.

And the best part of law in regards to copyright infringment is that you would be in less legal trouble if you actually did physically steal the game from a store. . .

Re:Clarification

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I WILL NOT BUY YOUR PRODUCTS AGAIN UNTIL YOU CHANGE YOUR TACTICS.

Which tactic is it that you are protesting?

1. Is it the one where they charge money for their products?
2. The one where they want to arrest people for not paying for their product?

If they don't charge money, you can't buy it so your protest is in vain.

If they don't arrest people for not paying for it, they won't make money and they won't sell anything for you to buy.

So either way it looks like you won't be buying any of their products ever again regardless of what they do.

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

Hey pal, nice try and all, but Internet Privacy Act 1995 doesn't exist.
Additionally, former U, S. President William Jefferson Clinton never signed into law any legislation which in any manner restricts anyone's access to Web sites selling illegal items. No similar law exists anywhere in the world. There is no law which in any way prohibits or restricts instituting criminal charges or litigation against such sites based upon a site's posting of this imaginary act.. Regardless of a posting of this fictitious act, any information obtained from these sites may be used by law enforcement and trademark holders for prosecution and litigation purposes.

Seriously now. Give me a break. Grow up. Get over it. The 24 hour thing is a myth.

Re:Clarification

[fucksl4shd0t]

nt

You are denying them the profit they have a right to.

Ah, another socialist? Since when do corporations (or anybody, for that matter) have a right to profit? By copying their game, you're not denying them their right to profit. They don't have that right to begin with. OTOH, if you copy the game, and then sell your copy, and don't pay any royalties, you will be committing copyright infringement.

Once upon a time, if money didn't change hands, no infringement had occurred. That's called "Fair Use". Copyright is supposed to temporarily secure (by creating) a person's right to commercially exploit their Creative Work on the free market. It is not supposed to prevent non-commercial uses of the word, and it protects some commercial uses (which is why we can include scene snippets from a feature film in a review if we wanted).

because the end result is that people are breaking the law.

If the law no longer represents the good of society and/or is no longer consistent with the intent of the law, and numerous attempts have been made to address the problems with the law and most/all have failed, what recourse would you suggest?

Re:Clarification

[scot4875]

having a one-sided view as if corporations' "rights" to profit are being violated

Umm, IANAL, but isn't the whole point of "copyright" to grant the copyright holder an exclusive right to copy their work so that they can PROFIT from it?

I'm no corporate sympathizer, but I think your rant is misplaced here. This is not about corporations -- it's about copyright. And, for the most part, Rockstar Games has been a pretty good corporate citizen anyway. It's unfair to compare them to the likes of *AA/Disney.

--Jeremy

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

What I meant was the "profit" or revenue from you owning a copy of the game. As far as me being a socialist... I'm about as far from it as you can possibly be.

Since when do corporations (or anybody, for that matter) have a right to profit? By copying their game, you're not denying them their right to profit
Except that you and others may have purchased the item had it not be made available via illegal means. Thus you are infringing on their rights to grant license to those who they choose to, and by the method and means that they choose.

Once upon a time, if money didn't change hands, no infringement had occurred.
When was that time? When there were no tapes or other methods for home users to make copies?

That's called "Fair Use".
"Fair Use" is not making as many copies as you want and giving them to people. Fair Use is being able to say, make MP3s from your CD (or vice-versa), record a TV show or radio broadcast, not distribute as many copies to as many people as you want.

which is why we can include scene snippets from a feature film in a review if we wanted)

Yes, but they can not simply show the whole movie.

If the law no longer represents the good of society and/or is no longer consistent with the intent of the law, and numerous attempts have been made to address the problems with the law and most/all have failed, what recourse would you suggest?

It is no longer good that people are not allowed to make and distribute unlimited copies of something that they have no right to distribute? Amazing premise there.

I used to buy into all that the pro-pirated BS too (oh but piracy actually makes the companies money!, you have a right to try the game for 24 hours, Fair Use allows this!, etc etc etc). That was about 12 years ago.

And then I grew up.

Re:Clarification

[fucksl4shd0t]

Emphasis for quotes, bold text added for emphasis.

Except that you and others may have purchased the item had it not be made available via illegal means. Thus you are infringing on their rights to grant license to those who they choose to, and by the method and means that they choose.

You also may purchase the item now that you've played it and see how much the game rocks. Conversely, you may not have purchased the item having never played it, deciding to spend your money on something else. Arguing what any user may or may not do as a result of copying something is pointless, there are many possibilities. A better data set wouldn't include maybes or possiblies, it would instead show what percentage of a given demographic, after illegally copying the game, will a) purchase the game, b) delete it and never play it again, c) copy it for their friends. Show me some real numbers that show how the practice definitely hurts the producers, no matter how marginal the "hurt" may be.

"Fair Use" is not making as many copies as you want and giving them to people. Fair Use is being able to say, make MP3s from your CD (or vice-versa), record a TV show or radio broadcast, not distribute as many copies to as many people as you want.

From the fucking law:

107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use38

Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include ?

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

(2) the nature of the copyrighted work;

(3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.

The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors.

(I didn't dig up citations, but there are court precedents that have extended Fair Use to include many non-educational but still non-profit uses of the work)

That last one, #4, is what should legitimize some forms of what's now considered "piracy". P2P filesharing, for example, extends market and adds value to the work.

Now, in this specific case of GTA:San Andreas I'm not really arguing that it's "ok". But if I were the one making this game, I'd probably take it with a grain of salt, try to make as much noise about it as possible (remember, no such thing as bad press), and buy a bigger safe to hold all the money this action will make me.

I didn't respond point by point to your post, but I have reread my post and decided it is a complete response to your entire post.

Re:Clarification

[Have Blue]

A copyright holder has the right to declare the conditions under which someone else may obtain a copy of their work (this is the definition of copyright in the first place). It is well within their rights to have one of those conditions be "I am given a certain amount of money". By making a copy of their work without meeting this condition, you are violating their rights.

Re:Clarification

[arose]

Copyleft is not needed if there is no copyright. Copyleft is a subversion of the system to get around the fact that otherwise Free Software (and other kinds of works) could be made non free to downstream receivers.

Re:Clarification

[strictfoo]

You also may purchase the item now that you've played it and see how much the game rocks. Conversely, you may not have purchased the item having never played it, deciding to spend your money on something else.

Which is why most software companies provide trial versions/demo/shareware/etc of their product.

Read the law?
106. Exclusive rights in copyrighted works

Subject to sections 107 through 122, the owner of copyright under this title has the exclusive rights to do and to authorize any of the following:

(1) to reproduce the copyrighted work in copies or phonorecords;

the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research

I don't see the part of fair use that allows for you to copy something to let someone "try out".

(1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;

Definitely not allowed under "nonprofit educational purposes".

(4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. (emphasis yours)

Exactly. The vast distribution of copyrighted works over P2P networks, Newsgroups, and other means has a large effect upon the market and value for the copyrighted work. You distributing a couple copies may not have an large affect, but it does have an affect and you are contributing to something that does in fact negatively affect the software industry as a whole.

That last one, #4, is what should legitimize some forms of what's now considered "piracy". P2P filesharing, for example, extends market and adds value to the work.

False. It shrinks the market. Most software developers already offer demos of their product. End users are already able to try most software. Piracy removes many more people from the market than it adds. How does selling fewer copies, and thus making less money, add value to a work?

Re:Clarification

[untaken_name]

Did I state anywhere that no company would ever be harmed by piracy? No. I did not state that. It's nice to know that an irrelevant argument, one which I did not even make, is invalid. Good job. I simply stated that video games are in no danger of extinction. This is because the profits being realized by successful game companies are so great that if the current players all suddenly vanished, there would be a new crop in place tomorrow. Are you saying I'm wrong about that? (Note to the pedantic: I realize it might take more than one day. I was using mild exaggeration to underscore my point.) Note that I also did not endorse software piracy at any point, nor did I advance the notion or implication that I am 'special' or better than anyone else, much less everyone else. For the record: I am not a unique snowflake, and I pay for my games. I don't encourage others not to. I simply stated that there will always be people who will pirate games. Again, would you care to contradict me on that point? If you don't care to address the points I actually made, rather than the fanciful imaginations of your fevered brain, please don't bother to respond.

Re:Clarification

[fucksl4shd0t]

False. It shrinks the market. Most software developers already offer demos of their product. End users are already able to try most software. Piracy removes many more people from the market than it adds. How does selling fewer copies, and thus making less money, add value to a work?

I asked you to back up this statement in my last post, and I will not further discuss this until you do. What you have offered is assertion that appears to me grounded on speculation, and I'd like to see what it's grounded on. Since this is the basis of your position, I don't see how you would be able to object to providing actual evidence in place of assertions.

Re:Clarification

[danger_boy_13]

I think it is hilarious how biased this is. If any of you were working somewhere as a programmer and someone pirated your game or software, you would be pissed. Then, if it continued and your salary was cut because profit has dropped to the nth degree, then you would be even more pissed. I'd like to see you say that its ok to do it.

Re:Clarification

[untaken_name]

I'd like to see you say that its ok to do it.

I'll tell you the same thing I told the other troll: you won't see me say any such thing. Nor have you seen me say any such thing. Bzzt. Sorry. Try again.

Re:Clarification

[mahdi13]

I simply stated that video games are in no danger of extinction.

I didn't say games are in danger, it's the game companies that are taking the hits.

LokiGames is gone, Looking Glass is gone, Interplay is going and many other good companies have passed on. These are companies that all put out great games (unlike Blizzard's mediocre ones), but were not able to sustain profit. LokiGames went under partially due to poor management, but their lack of sales is what really hurt them.

You take the stance of neither position and want the arguments to end, but then you take the stance that it won't ever stop so don't try to stop it. You call me fevered because I made a comment about whiny kids? While you go on about that's the way things are, deal with it?

You are correct that games will not go away, but we are constantly losing good game companies because they are not making enough revenue. We lose good game companies, we lose good games. I'm saying support the good companies by purchasing their product so they can continue to make more. Pirating games only helps them get closer to chapter13.

But what most people fail to understand, everything mentioned is my opinion and not necessarily fact. This is how I personally feel about this issue, I can't speak for others.

Re:Clarification

[Fallen_Knight]

yea, but that doesn't make it thef...

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

But you are arguing that since they broke the law, you have the right to break the law.

Not at all. And I didn't say that or imply that anywhere. All I am saying is that most media coverage and legislators' attention is one-sided, like the comment I replied to. That only makes sense since most of the mainstream media are the same companies in the entertainment industry and the entertainment cartel; and also those companies are the ones making huge campaign contributions to legislators. The situation only fuels the differences between public interest and the interests of the cartel and, legislation that's supposed to represent the public, being one-sided (read: bought out by the cartel), is no help in the matter.

Now, if you want to express only a one-sided view of how 25 million (or whatever number) people in the U.S. and hundreds of millions worldwide are criminals outright, then go ahead. But don't forget the other side of the story as well - the cartel is illegally "stealing" from you too. And they will continue to do so; and there's no realistic solution in sight; and, most of all, nobody cares or wants to care about it.

So, I guess you can welcome DMCA, CBDTPA (or whatever the spelling), INDUCE ACT, and rest of the anti-common-sense everyone-is-a-criminal legislation as your new overlords. And don't forget to pay the entertainment cartel tax when you buy a CD-R drive or media either... err... you don't have to remember - it's automatically paid out of your pocket for your convenience.

Chevron spilled a bunch of oil off Alaska several years ago, they broke the law! That gives me the right to go to any Chevron station and take all the gas I want! They broke the law first!

And that has to do what with what I said? Can you make a copy of the liquid gas fuel from your neighbor without taking anything from or going to the gas station? If yes, then you wouldn't be stealing from the gas station; if not, then the comparison is invalid.

Finally, and again, I didn't say breaking the law was OK anywhere. However, if the entertainment cartel gets its way and outlaws common sense, it will be hard for people not to use it.

Re:Clarification

[untaken_name]

You corrected an assertion that I did not make. Besides, companies in every field go out of business every single day. Am I more heartless for mentioning that fact than you are for bemoaning it? It's just the way it goes. My family owned a business at one point, and it went under because of my step-dad's drug use and gambling debts. It was a good company, too. That doesn't mean that I think drug use and gambling are going to go away just from me bitching about it. The harsh fact is, if your business can't survive it doesn't matter why. Would I prefer living in a utopia where no one ever acted in an immoral fashion? Of course. Do I believe that endless bitching about not living in such a society on slashdot is going to bring that state about? Hell no. All I'm saying is that there has been nothing added to this debate in the last 1500 conversations about it I've seen on slashdot, so why not end it? In fact, I'm going to follow my own advice. Feel free to respond if you like, but I am through with this topic.

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

Umm, IANAL, but isn't the whole point of "copyright" to grant the copyright holder an exclusive right to copy their work so that they can PROFIT from it?

So, the exclusive right is to copy and distribute, *not* to profit! Whether they profit or not depends on many other things like whether anyone wants to actually buy the product. There is no right to profit anywhere.

Having said that, the media cartel wants to make you think that they have a right to "profit" - well, revenue, even if nobody wants to buy their product. In fact, they have convinced the legislation in many countries to enact laws exactly for that purpose. Example - everyone is paying taxes to the entertainment cartel by simply purchasing recordable devices or media like blank tapes, CD-R drives/media, etc.

I'm no corporate sympathizer, but I think your rant is misplaced here. This is not about corporations -- it's about copyright. And, for the most part, Rockstar Games has been a pretty good corporate citizen anyway. It's unfair to compare them to the likes of *AA/Disney.

And, if you read my post, that's why I pointed out at the end that I was not claiming that this stuff applies in this case to Rockstar - I was simply replying to the poster who made some general statements with regard to "stealing" and "piracy."

Re:Clarification

[ShinmaWa]

Great - another corporations-have-a-right-to-profit thinker. Corporations don't have a right to profit

This general thought has been copied over and over again and each time the thought was wrong.

The grandparent never said "the right to profit (verb)" as in the "right to make a profit". He said "the profit*s* (noun, plural) they have a right to" as in the "right to actually receive full payment for a product they are selling from those who are receiving that product".

Having the right to receive their due profits is not the same has having a right to make a profit.

Furthermore, the grandparent was right. Corporations and individuals both have a right to the profits they are entitled to -- by definition. Those entitlements are granted by all kinds of laws including copyright, trademark, anti-theft, and anti-piracy laws.

Re:Clarification

[Anonymous Coward]

You've made a convincing case that unauthorised copying of copyright material is violating the legal rights of the copyright holder, but no one is suggesting otherwise.

The fact that it violates legal rights doesn't make it theft, and it doesn't mean it's wrong.

Maybe in this specific case it *is* theft and maybe it's wrong, but the fact that it's illegal doesn't in itself imply either of these things.

Re:Clarification

[ShinmaWa]

You're funny.

You said:

Arguing what any user may or may not do as a result of copying something is pointless, there are many possibilities.

and followed it up with:

P2P filesharing, for example, extends market and adds value to the work.

Even ignoring the fact you said a particular argument was "pointless" then almost immediately used the exact same argument, you are still full of BS.

That last one, #4, is what should legitimize some forms of what's now considered "piracy". P2P filesharing, for example

Yeah, if you completely ignore #1: "The purpose and character of the use". If the purpose of the use is to consume a game, movie, music, etc. without paying for it, then its not fair use.

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

He said "the profit*s* (noun, plural) they have a right to" as in the "right to actually receive full payment for a product they are selling from those who are receiving that product".

There is no such right! The copyright grants exclusive right to make and distribute copies of copyrighted works. There is no such right to (or guarantee of) payment or much less "profit" of any kind!

Furthermore, the grandparent was right. Corporations and individuals both have a right to the profits they are entitled to -- by definition. Those entitlements are granted by all kinds of laws including copyright, trademark, anti-theft, and anti-piracy laws.

And where does it say in the copyright law that anyone is entitled to profits, or has a right to profits? The contracts you make to sell your works are of your own doing, and if nobody pays for your product, then you are not entitled to anything.

But I guess if you trust the entertainment cartel, they do have a right to profit even though they don't sell anything - look at how recordable media and equipment is taxed - percentage of sales proceeds directly to the cartel. So, yes, you are right in that sense.

Re:Clarification

[ShinmaWa]

Stop twisting people's words to make your stupid argument. We are all saying "There is an X" and you are saying "There's no such Y!".

There is no such right to (or guarantee of) payment

Basic contract law disagrees with you. If I sell my mowing services for $30 and you receive benefit of that by having your lawn mowed by me, I damned well have the right to receive payment from you.

Rockstar is selling entertainment in the form of GTA:SA. If you receive benefit of that by playing the game, Rockstar has the right to be paid for it.

The contracts you make to sell your works are of your own doing, and if nobody pays for your product, then you are not entitled to anything.

In this case, I invite you not to pay your power bill. Call your power company up and tell them they have no right or guarantee of payment. I urge you. Please do that.

Re:Clarification

[fbg111]

A word of advice, steer clear of flawed statements like this. Nobody has a "right" to profit.

What the original poster probably meant: Both individuals and business have a right to private property, e.g., the fruits of their labor and intelligence, and the right to exchange their private property for either cash or other goods. Ostensibly the goal of the exchange is to profit, although there is no guarantee or right to that, but regardless of the symantics, getting that property without exchanging anything for it denies the creator/owner/copyright holder of their private property rights. More to the point, it rips them off monetarily.

Re:Clarification

[fucksl4shd0t]

Even ignoring the fact you said a particular argument was "pointless" then almost immediately used the exact same argument, you are still full of BS.

I can cite. I don't expect you to believe me unless I actually do it, and it's late and I have a computer I need to fix so I can get paid, and this discussion will probably time out before I find time, but I can cite. There are plenty of studies available that back me up (and I have posted cites numerous times in the past, so if you google my user id and limit it to slashdot.org you should find some of them).

But I understand you figuring I'm full of shit unless I actually post cites, and I can live with it. :)

Yeah, if you completely ignore #1: "The purpose and character of the use". If the purpose of the use is to consume a game, movie, music, etc. without paying for it, then its not fair use.

That's a pretty one-dimensional way of looking at it. Because I can (and have) consumed games in the past that resulted in my recommendation being given and several sales being made. On a large scale (and this happens, like it or not, the cites I haven't provided that you won't respect until I do say so), this actually increases the market. In the case of P2P filesharing, music (and to a lesser extent, movies) are able to penetrate markets that were previously impenetrable, and they can do it without spending $millions like they already spend on the markets that are already saturated. This market penetration actually increases the value of the product significantly. The courts have the power to weigh this against #1 (as they did with radio in the past), provide a slap-on-the-wrist sort of fine and force a solution (again, as they did with radio). Instead, the courts decided to give awards so high that it pushes a business into bankruptcy and ruins individuals.

Anyway, since I don't actually have the time to dig up citations (and I never really did manage to collect them into one place, I should do that), and my argument falls down without them, and every single poster that has responded to me has also refused to cite, there's little point to pursuing this discussion further. next time this comes up when I'm paying attention, hopefully I'll have time to cite. ;)

Re:Clarification

[zurab]

Stop twisting people's words to make your stupid argument. We are all saying "There is an X" and you are saying "There's no such Y!".

Actually, the original post I replied to said "profit" and I repeated that word - I didn't twist it into anything else, if that's what you mean.

Basic contract law disagrees with you. If I sell my mowing services for $30 and you receive benefit of that by having your lawn mowed by me, I damned well have the right to receive payment from you.

Actually, basic contract law disagrees with you in this case. If you do sell your service at $30 a pop, and you have no contract with me to do my lawn, but you mow it anyway, you can't demand that I pay you anyway. It makes sense. Unfortunately, copyright law often doesn't make the same sense as the contract law; but that's another topic altogether.

Rockstar is selling entertainment in the form of GTA:SA. If you receive benefit of that by playing the game, Rockstar has the right to be paid for it.

Well, not exactly, but I am not arguing this point either. Meaning I can still play the game at my friend's place without paying Rockstar anything and it wouldn't have anything to do with copyright at all. But I imagine that's not what you had in mind when you wrote this - you probably meant when you buy or otherwise acquire the game from a "pirate shop" or something similar.

Again, I have nothing against Rockstar - they may be a perfect company to work for and deal with - I don't know - and none of my comments may be applicable to them. My original post was simply replying to its parent's general statements.

In this case, I invite you not to pay your power bill. Call your power company up and tell them they have no right or guarantee of payment. I urge you. Please do that.

Again, this has nothing to do with copyrights as they work differently and are separate from contract law altogether. I have a contract with the power company, and if I didn't want to pay them I guess I could cancel their service - this has nothing to do with copyrights at all.

The point that I did try to make that somehow went into this was different, though. I don't think that people (i.e. media, legislators, etc.) are viewing the situation fairly. They usually compare unauthorized copying of copyrighted content to stealing; and that's fine - as long as that goes both ways. If a P2P user that downloads a copyrighted song without authorization is a thief, then so is the cartel of corporations that's illegally price-fixing, restricting trades, etc. Consumers have just as much right to keep their money/income and not be illegally taken away by such actions. So, if you want to compare P2P sharing of unauthorized content to stealing goods from a store, then also compare illegal price-fixing to taking people's valuables from their homes without their consent.

This doesn't mean that it's OK to violate law or "steal" from someone if they steal from you, but it does call for a more fair view of what's really going on.

Re:Clarification

[3terrabyte]

It's not that simple. You can not point at piracy as ruining a company. You have no idea how many of those people WOULD have bought a Loki game if they had employed a 'perfect copyprotection' scheme. Running a business is tough. Look at what ID did to leverage free demos on the internet. Look how Adobe has always lived with piracy of their pruducts to their advantage. Piracy didn't magically increase one day and put Loki Software out of business. Is it even possible to survive out there today without getting Microsoft to umbrella you?

Most of the searching I did on Loki Games pops up nothing but their linux support.

random quote:
"The problem with Loki was that they were too visionary. They knew damn well they weren't going to make a profit for a while and their business model was predicated on it. Unfortunately, Investors changed their mind about the risks involved in such a business model and Loki was forced to close up shop.

Unfortunately, that has happened to a lot of business that had great business plans in 1999 based on 1999 economy, but in 2000 and 2001, when the economy changed, they had no "Plan B". Investors don't invest the same way in a poor economy that they do in a boom one."

My family's business of 25 years when down the toilet that year, too. (Along with MANY others, and they are the sales of non-pirating goods) And it was due to the economy, and ever increasing competition. The big guys kept putting out loss leaders for years to undercut us.
What really broke the camel's back, though, was ebay.

Re:Clarification

[Nyder]

if you went in to store and stole the physical package, you wouldn't be charge with stealing from Rockstar, you'd be charge with theft (shoplifting) from the place you stoled it from.

While downloading copyrighted material is against the law, you can in no way convince me that the company loses money that way. The stuff I download I would NOT every buy. if I like the game, then yes, I will buy it. Everyone I know is the same way, they will download the game to try it, and if they like it, they buy the game.
Maybe if these companys stopped trying to pass off crap they would make a little more money.

San Andreas?

[Anonymous Coward]

Alright, whose fault is this???

nyuk nyuk...i kill me...

Re:San Andreas?

[Anonymous Coward]

i kill me...

Please do.

Re:San Andreas?

[booch]

That same joke occured to me as well. Of course, when I first read the subject line, I actually thought that the San Andreas Fault had leaked something. I thought they meant that something had either oozed up, or that the tension had been released in a "leaky" way instead of an "explosive" way.

PC Version

[Anonymous Coward]

VERY lame that once again, another GTA game is being released on PS2 before PC.

The PC San Andreas wont even be out until SPRING 2005.

Re:PC Version

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, hopefully they'll clear up the inevitable bugs by then.

Re:PC Version

[DeathByDuke]

I strongly agree. GTA started out on the PC, designed for the PC, and with the PC gaming audience in mind (yeah, we're mindless car thieving yobs, jump on that Daily Mirror). They got their riches through the PC, and grew through the PC. So why neglect it? Max Payne. PC. GTA 1-2, PC first. Where did your early money come from Rockstar? PC. So, once again, Why neglect us?

Re:PC Version

[AusG4]

You should remember that game development is a business, and that the PS2 will sell far more units than a PC version. Most people will just pirate the PC version anyways (as evidenced by the article in question), but on the other hand, most people will buy the PS2 version.

On top of that, Rockstar has an exclusivity agreement with Sony because games like this sell consoles.

Take all that together... you're lucky you're getting a PC version of San Andreas at all.

Anyways, PS2 70001 (slim one) - $159 at Walmart.

Re:PC Version

[Anonymous Coward]

PC version? Bah. I don't care until it runs on Linux.

Re:PC Version

[Jason Hood]

Rockstar is paid money up front by Sony to not release GTA for any other platform (including the PC) until 6 months after the PS release.

Unforunately not to many PC makers are paying Rockstar more (at all) top get exclusive distribution rights.

Sony is very smart. GTA is a sure bet with every release.

Re:PC Version

[Anonymous Coward]

And that'll teach them to release games for gamecube. There is only 1 known way to pirate games for that machine and it is so inconvenient that it isn't profitable.

torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

http://64.92.167.30/download.php?id=369&name=Grand _Theft_Auto_San_Andreas_USA_PS2DVD-PARANOiD.torren t

Re:torrent

[__aadkof7200]

Not Funny.

Re:torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

Informative

Great marketing

[Anonymous Coward]

This question is for people who believe that music file trading increases CD sales. Ever consider that maybe releasing your software online, then crying that it has been pirated, is a fantastic and free marketing ploy? The vast majority of game players actually by their games. So when they see news like this posted on Slashdot and other sites, it's simply free advertising, and a powerful message that this game must be damn hot, so I just gotta rush out and buy it as soon as it hits the stores.

Re:Great marketing

[drew]

i would say this is especially true in the case of console games. seriously, how many people have the necessary equipment and could figure out how to play a ps2 or xbox game they downloaded off the net? the dent this will make in sales will be completely unnoticeable for them, but they have just been given some of the best publicity they could have gotten for this game.

This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[BRock97]

Prepare for a "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around" question...

So, hypothetically, if Half-Life 2 were to be pirated, I download the game, and I already have it paid for via Steam, is it illegal?

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

Worst. Koan. Ever.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[LighthouseJ]

If you get it before the launch, then I'd say yes but since you have paid for it but simply didn't wait until the launch date, it won't kick up too much dust.

I think they'd be concerned more about their money than punishing a couple hundred paying customers for not waiting a few days till the game is officially released.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[jxyama]

i think it may not illegal but you should definitely look at is as wrong. you are knowingly obtaining a copy from a person who has no distribution rights. it's like buying a rolex for $20 on the street - you know it's stolen. (yeah, i understand the blah, blah about theft vs. copyright infingement. but you are helping someone else commit an illegal act, so hope you see my point.)

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

Well yeah, but who gives a fuck.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I often download games then go and buy them. Mainly because i can get them on the net before the store. Personally i would say that if you have paid for the game, then downloading it from anywhere is fine.

Steam, and other such delivery systems should help this sort of pircay. The weak point in the system currently is that the finished game is in the hands of so many people, other than those that worked directly on the game. And hence, is more likely to leak.

When everyone is buying their games through steam, i can see stealing the game before its release being much much harder. It will be easier to secure the game when there is only one point of access. (unless you get hacked like valve :p)

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Firehawke]

Great question there. I'm going to say that the legal side of the question is iffy-- it might be illegal yet since you didn't get it through legal distrobution methods (read: the ROM image situation; if you didn't dump it yourself, the copy is illegal).

Morally, however, I'd say it's much less grey. It's absolutely fine, in my opinion-- you did pay for it BEFORE you downloaded it, after all. They've got their money either way, so no harm was actually commited.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Jakhel]

Actually, in most cases you know it's FAKE.

No one, not even a crackhead, would sell a rolex for $20. They would at least get $50

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Lehk228]

actually you are helping the publisher, whenever a paying cusomer downloads a pirated copy of the game they bought they are using bandwidth which would otherwise have helped someone who didn't pay for the game to get the game.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[lowe0]

It's definitely illegal, though it's probably moral - if you've fulfilled your end of the bargain (compensating them) then you already own a license to use the work.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Random832]

a $20 "rollex" is more likely to be fake than stolen.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[d_jedi]

In a legal sense, yes, it's probably illegal. In a moral sense, you're not depriving the people who made this game of any hard earned revenues, so I'd think this is OK.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

I am going out on a limb here... but I bet you are against personal backups too.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Drakonian]

Actually, to be pedantic, it doesn't beg any question. To beg the question is to assume the point to be proved in a logical argument.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[danila]

It is legal. In fact, it would be legal even if you haven't had it paid for. Downloading games (and buying pirated copies) is very often legal. It's uploading them (or selling pirated copies) that is prohibited by copyright laws.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[lowe0]

Nope. I could care less how many copies, where you want them, what medium, etc. All I care about is securing my rights while not infringing upon anyone else's rights.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Xenographic]

Erhm, I'm afraid you're quite wrong.

It most certainly is illegal, thanks to our screwy IP laws, but since you actually paid for it, it's highly questionable exactly what harm they would suffer as a result of your actions. Let me repeat that: it is illegal in any country which has signed the Berne treaty recognizing copyrights. There are damned few countries that haven't signed that treaty. If you're in an english-speaking country, you're probably covered by it, with the possible exception of Sealand.

Given the lack of harm suffered by the publisher in that case, however, it's an open question as to how wrong it was. And for parent, I'd like to remind you that not everything that is legal is moral, just as not everything illegal is necessarily immoral--we don't have the power to change laws for nothing.

If our laws work against the many for the benefit of the few, is it so unreasonable to rethink them?

The reason people react so with the debate over whether or not it's "stealing" is because until quite recently it wasn't. Let me repeat that: it wasn't considered wrong. Why should someone own an idea just because they thought it first? If it's really "property," why do the rights to it expire? Have our laws not forgotten the public domain--the very thing they were meant to *enrich* by encouraging publication?

So then, in my view, one should obey the law as it is for now, but work to change it into something more reasonable and more workable.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

It is completely legal, as long as paid for via Steam meant stumping up many millions of dollars for the sole distribution rights.

Otherwise off to the slammer, you paid for a licence to download via Steam, and that is all you can do.

Re:This Begs A Half-Life 2 Question

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, the pigs can throw you in jail for jaywalking and unpaid parking tickets. I hope you visit the slammer sometime yourself.

victim?

[hedrek]

Couldn't have happened to a better company.

FUCK those morons who produce this game..

I'm all for Doom style violence, but when you get into car jacking and shit like that.. go to hell..

Re:victim?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a fucking game, SCHTOOPEET ! Who really cares wether it's Doom style or Car jacking? Whats the matter with you Bitch ?

Re:victim?

[hkb]

Right, because the alien genocide, property damage, and xenophobia of Doom is much more righteous!

help fund for the programmers..

[Anonymous Coward]

Who is going to set up the care fund online to help the starving programmers and company eXecs cince this leak and piracy is making them poor.

Piracy steals from the poor creative people...

oh wait.....

Piracy , but who benefit the most

[lecuyerjm]

Just for a bit of info, there another side of game piracy. I'm sure you guy that for a game to be well sale, you need some guy to pirate the game. Piracy help the game industrie to be well know. There is not one bad side of piracy. For myself I don't think game piracy is cool , but i'm sure it does help game selling. Jim

Re:Piracy , but who benefit the most

[Anonymous Coward]

You sir, are an idiot! Of course piracy is bad. There is no way that piracy (not paying for a product) helps the game industry. It cost them money to develop the game, if you do not buy the game that is lost money to them.

*sigh*

[festers]

Why are these things starting to sound like publicity stunts more than anything else?

GTA for FREE (and Legal)

[ForestGrump]

ok, so its not the latest and greatest
but Rockstar has made the orig GTA free for dl

Grump

Re:GTA for FREE (and Legal)

[DarkHelmet]

If only the source were available, it would be playable? Ever try the windows version? Slooooow. Plus, there's no direct3d version, only glide.

Ah well, it is free, afterall... But then again, I paid for the game when it came out.

This just proves one thing

[Anonymous Coward]

The media only covers things that make money. That's right. Video game "piracy" as they like to call it has been going on since there were video games. Now that video games "big business" they cover it. Where was media when people were pirating windows 3.1 and Warcraft 1? Nowhere to be seen. This isn't news people, it's "fake" news fed to you by your "unbiased, no we swear" media. Anybody who releases ANY production on CD-rom is an idiot to think it won't be made public before or soon after its release date. I'm not hear to argue if that is right or wrong that is just a fact of life. The sky is blue, politicians like to lie, and people will rip you off if given the chance. As for my views on this "piracy" I think it only hurts games that suck and weren't going to sell well anyway execpt for maybe some lame theme/licsensing. You wouldn't buy a car without driving it, buy a house without at least walking through it, go to a movie without seeing previews for it, or buy a book without at least reading the back cover. But we are expected to plop down 50$ on faith that this game won't suck ass. And you know what?? Plenty of times(more than not??) it does suck ass. Maybe the game producers could do 2 things to make "piracy" less prevalent. First start making games people think are worth buying. Second bring back the DEMO,before the game is released, not 2 months later(doom 3 anybody, though IMHO they had a good reason to not let us play that pile before release). So yeah I kind of got off on a tangent but it's all pretty relevant :)

Save your download time

[chegosaurus]

It's just Pacman with a bow.

Re:Save your download time

[operagost]

Don't forget the bouncing fruit.

And different mazes.

/me 80s game-Nazi

Re:Save your download time

[Anonymous Coward]

...and it's much faster.

.torrent

[Anonymous Coward]

The .torrent

Actually...

[LighthouseJ]

If the game was about trying to reform the main character away from robbing and stealing, then it would be irony. Since there is no relative constrast between the game plot and downloading leaked copies, this cannot be irony.

req: Obligatory Simpsons quote

[Anonymous Coward]

Please find a Simpsons quote to help me understand this.

Thanks,

The Obligatory Simpsons quote guy

blame?

[hawley Griffin]

haitians? surely...

Stolen?

[foolip]

What does the article actually say has happened? Has a copy of the game actually been stolen, or has a copy been made and put online? Since its impossible to steal immaterial things it should mean the latter, but with all the deliberate confusion of theft and copyright infringement that goes on its impossible to say.

Re:Stolen?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is your identity a material thing? Can it be stolen?

Re:Stolen?

[GoofyBoy]

>Has a copy of the game actually been stolen

Considering its not available for sale yet, its a good bet it was taken illegally (stolen) from the publisher or developer. Thats usually how it done, stolen from the cd factory.

Re:Stolen?

[foolip]

Well I actually don't believe that immaterial things exist, they're just a convenient abstraction that allow us to talk about certain things efficiently.

But no, my identity is not material in the sense that a coffee cup is. And no, it cannot be stolen.

Re:Stolen?

[/dev/trash]

I would say, after just reading the summary ( you should try it sometime) that phsysical things were stolen.

Re:Stolen?

[Fgarb]

Your identity can be copied, damaged and inconvenienced. Technically, I suppose the crime would be "Reputation Theft," but that's not as cool sounding as "Identity Theft."

Re:Stolen?

[Aidtopia]

[I]t[']s impossible to steal immaterial things....

Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. --Howard Aiken (1900-1973)

About the most originality that any writer can hope to achieve honestly is to steal with good judgment. --Josh Billings (1818-1885)

They copied all they could follow
but they couldn't copy my mind
so I left them sweating and stealing
a year and a half behind.
--Rudyard Kipling (1865-1936)

If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from many, it's research. --Wilson Mizner (1876-1933)

Immature poets imitate; mature poets steal. --T.S. Eliot

Re:Stolen?

[Anonymous Coward]

So a reputation is a physical thing?

Re:Stolen?

[Anonymous Coward]

If you steal from one author, it's plagiarism; if you steal from many, it's research. --Wilson Mizner (1876-1933)

Cool! I'm going to rename my MP3 directory "research"! Then they can't touch me...

Patch

[IvanD]

I guess that's a nice move.. since your "patched" book might not look good. But a patch for the game can also go out... an so.. the happiest after all would be those that downloaded the game illegally because they'll have two endings instead of the one of the legal customers.

Why does moderation end at +5

[Anonymous Coward]

This deserves a +69 at least...

one more thing..

[hedrek]

whoever modded my above post -1 troll

go cheney yourself.

and fuck rockstar games too

solution to grand theft auto

[Anonymous Coward]

Buy a Hyundai. No self respecting car thief will be caught dead in one.

how much money do gaming companies make?!

[mbonig]

When the RIAA started sueing people left and right the common response from a lot of people was "just lower the price of a CD from $18 and you won't have this problem!" ... I think many people can agree that the music industry has some priorities out of place, but I won't dive into that here. how realistic is this $50 price tag on games?! I've seen that same price for over 10 years now and I wonder, do gaming companies make a lot of money, or is the profit on a game pretty slim? Would the lowering of prices on games to combat piracy cause a serious profit problem for companies? I recently saw talks about increasing that price up to $60 or more! I'd think this would just drive MORE piracy. CD Protection is obviously not the answer since most games have cracks available within 48 hours of release, so what's the answer to stop piracy? Offer the games at a reasonable price? continue to push copy protection schemes (bring back the old Monkey Island code wheel)??

Re:how much money do gaming companies make?!

[Jarlsberg]

how realistic is this $50 price tag on games?! I've seen that same price for over 10 years now and I wonder, do gaming companies make a lot of money, or is the profit on a game pretty slim?

In reality, this means that the price is considerably lower today than it ever was. :) What other products cost the same today as it did ten years ago?

Re:how much money do gaming companies make?!

[mbonig]

In reality, this means that the price is considerably lower today than it ever was. :) What other products cost the same today as it did ten years ago? Inflation hasn't hit the gaming industry as hard as far as software prices go, but how over-inflated was it to begin with?! Just putting in some rough ball-park figures I'm guessing that each game costs probably only a few bucks to actually publish. throw in advertising costs per cd and then development costs... does anybody have figures on what this all adds up to? how much does the average game turn in profit?

Non news...

[MavEtJu]

Wake me up when a game hasn't been leaked, stolen, copied or otherwise made available to the public before it has been released.

Re:Non news...

[LiquidCoooled]

The FPS version of Gigli was offered and rejected by every major p2p outlet known.

Even the eastern countries, normally piracy rife have declined to install a single copy.

Hundres of p2p users have been sent threatening letter from the GIAA(gaming industry...) warning them that they MUST begin sharing this file or severe penalties would be levied.

Several have settled out of court for thousands of dollars, whilst hundreds of other cases are pending. Industry watchdogs are dismayed, and the EFF are up in arms.

Re:Non news...

[Feanturi]

You're gonna sleep for a looooong time my friend. :)

it was me...

[EnVisiCrypt]

Grand Theft Auto made me do it.

Dupechecks beware

[Anonymous Coward]

Slashdot is going to compete agains warez information sites who is first to announce when new release is out.

When do we get nfo listings around here?

Actually, actually... it is irony after all

[Bruchpilot]

The relative contrast is in the attitude of the game producer towards stealing in the virtual and in the real world .....

How about cheaper games?

[gilesjuk]

Instead of wasting money developing protection dongles (which will be cracked). Why not reduce the price of the games?

Sure, they cost a lot to develop and Sony gets a royalty. But focus on the gameplay, lose the rendered intros (which take time and money to produce and get watched once, if that).

Games have been steadily rising in cost for years and the actually quality hasn't been. Sure they look pretty but the actual ideas are stale and the gameplay is weak.

mmm. . . websites. . .

[BigDawgES]

. . . appearing on various Web sites.

Downloading warez from a

• website

? What a quaint, antiquated idea!
(That's so 1995.

I'm sure a few communities still do it that way, but I think systems like IRC are the norm; harder to shut them down.

Re:mmm. . . websites. . .

[stanmann]

Actually, the insiders still use FTP and private NNTP, same as in 1990. I'm guessing that FTP and private NNTP servers will continue to be the first line for the forseable future.

Your sig...

[Proteus]

Conservatives: Kill murderers, save children.
Liberals: Kill children, save murderers.

Realists: Kill conservatives, fuck liberals.

Re:Your sig...

[Anonymous Coward]

liberals don't advocate killing children. unborn fetuses are not children. biologically, they're more like parasites...

paraphrased Obligatory Simpsons quotes

[phillymjs]

Nelson: "Copyright infringement is a victimless crime, like punching someone in the dark!"

Also, from the pamphlet, "So You've Decided to Download a Leaked Copy of GTA: San Andreas":
Myth: Unreleased video game piracy is wrong.
Fact: Video game companies are big faceless corporations, which makes it okay.

~Philly

Actually x 3

[LighthouseJ]

The definition of irony is that it's created using contrasts between the apparent and intended meaning.

In the grandparent poster, the apparent meaning was that you play a game to steal and intended meaning was that you stole the game, very little constrast. Like I said, it's not irony because there is no difference.

If the apparent meaning was a game to be a good character where you had to not steal but the game was good enough where people wanted to steal it, then that's irony.

Re:Actually x 3

[protektor]

The irony is that the publisher want you to lie, cheat and steal in the game, but doesn't want you to do it to them.

Its ok to make a game where you promote the idea of lying, cheating, and stealing, but god help you if you actually do it to them? hehe Sorry but that is the height of irony.

Re:Actually x 3

[Anonymous Coward]

Correct. It is not irony, but poetic justice.

They make money from encouraging criminal behaviour in a virtual world, then the fruits of their labour get illegally distrbuted over the networks.

The only effective copy protection:

[celerityfm]

The only effective copy protection I've ever seen is to make a compelling online-only game such as Counter-Strike.

Once you have the gamers online you can weave in connections to a centralized server where you can pull all sorts of tricks to insure that they are using a CDKEY that you issued, only once, with software that matches MD5 checksums/etc.

It's still possible to crack this, but AFAIK there is no effective multiplayer counterstrike crack, and given that the game has been out as long as it has been you would figure someone would have come up with SOMETHING by now. Even if they do, Valve would just issue a systemwide patch to combat it.

Same goes with MMORPGs and XBOX live/etc.

Every other form of copy protection is a plague on gamers. Granted Counter-Strike's cd key system has its own problems, but it's not as harsh as say, disabling the use of daemon tools or requiring a dongle or whatever. I predict that when net access becomes ubiquitous enough you'll see every game/application hit the net for authorization before running, on PC or consoles. Sad but true.

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[WhatAmIDoingHere]

Every few days a new "Online Play Crack" is released for CS and CS:Source.. within a day or two of said release, the Steam network is updated to block the online play cracks.

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[t35t0r]

net authorization for applications/games can be combatted easily .., it's the actual accessing of data from an online source that would make it difficult, but a simple check / checks are no problem for your average cracker.

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[__aailob1448]

While I agree with the general gist of what you said, the example you picked is unfortunate. The pirate version of CS:S is playable online without a CD key. Heck, it doesn't even use steam.

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[skajake]

Are you implying that we should be paying for

SHOCK HORROR! SERVICES? instead of intellectual property. Wow, what a novel concept.

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, I think suprnova's days are numbered when it starts appearing in people's profiles...

Re:The only effective copy protection:

[celerityfm]

Hah! I wonder how long Valve'll let one go or if they even care. I suppose they do since they have kept up the fight with CS, but this CS:S development is interesting.

Hmm.

theft?

[SQLz]

"Downloading, possession and distribution of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas, including making the game available on the internet, is theft."

Isn't this just your everyday garden variety copyright infringement?

In other news...

[imsabbel]

2500 people are on the suprnova tracker alone...

Re:In other news...

[d_jedi]

Thanks. I'll send the link to piracy@rockstargames.com.

Re:In other news...

[Zed2K]

Suprnova doesn't distribute the game. It distributes a file containing bits, that is all. Those bits in the file aren't even the game. You might as well have them go after google as well as all the other search engines too. One only needs to type in san andreas torrent to search to find all the locations that have it. Once its out there, its there. Nothing anyone can do about it.

Of the 3 torrents of it out there (that I can see) there are about 12k downloaders currently downloading it, with about 260 people seeding full versions. The archive is 2.6GB. I seriously doubt that many people have mod'd PS2's to play this. I bet most people are d/l for the sake of d/l to say: "Yeah, i got it" and thats about it.

Re:In other news...

[d_jedi]

I know how BitTorrent works. But Rockstar can get the IP addresses of all of the pirates who are on the torrent.. which is a start to tracking down and prosecuting all of the pirates.

Re:In other news...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea because that's a good use of our legal system. Prosecute people for downloading a game. Let me guess. Your a big fan of the war on drugs as well? Idiot.

Conspiracy Theory

[bstuffer]

Before that, a comment - if its posted on internet AFTER the game is released, it might be the "pirates" who are responsible. But if it happens BEFORE the release, most likely, its the "idiots" who are TOTALLY to be blamed. I never heard of the Coca Cola IP getting stolen!

Secondly, pre launch publicity is a HUGE requirement when I want to launch a multi million dollar game. I KNOW its gonna be floating on the internet anyway within a week (max!) after its release. What if I provide the bare minimum conditions myself for the same to happen and then after it does, raise a hue and cry! BAM, I get my share of BBC, Slashdot, CNN, newspapers, anti/pro-"piracy" crusaders, conspiracy theorists :-P talking about THE GAME. Thats WAY more than my smelly money could have bought! Strikes a note...?!!

Great, but...

[contagious_d]

I am excited about GTA: San Andreas coming out, but not enough to steal it. What I want to know is when someone is going to leak the new Gran Turismo, not on the internet, but right into my hand, in the box, with a steering wheel, a case of Mountain Dew, and some adult diapers.

Being a pirat is not bad...or is it?

[Anonymous Coward]

In Holland(Netherlands) we still erect statues of pirates who lived in the 16th century, so maybe if you are a pirate today we'll erect one for you too(in a couple of years).

Yes yes, the Dutch are very proud of their slave traders, they "freed" our own workforce of work, just as the current pirates "free" the "work" wich companies keep hidden from the public.

Creative Inpiration

[Vampyre_Dark]

Maybe this can serve as inspiration for a spineoff series.

GTORRENT: INSIDE JOB

You free roam around town looking for DVD-R bargains and pepper-spraying coders and stealing their code.

You can walk into cyber-cafes and upload your stolen goods to one of the popular servers, and then with the money you saved you can buy some Doritos and Pepsi(PRODUCT PLACEMENT, w00t!), and maybe have enough left over to pay the eldery women not to kick your ass on the dangerous trek back to your dorm room on the bus.

...Half Life 2

[seangw]

I hear people have already downloaded the full Half Life 2 game!

(before anyone gets too excited, this is in reference to the Steam distribution model)

Actually

[thebudgie]

*redvsblue*I think it would be ironic, if we were all made of iron */redvsblue*

what next...

[cassidyc]

Rockstar game not wanting to be outdone by the mighty Microsoft marketing machine, clearly followed in their lead by allowing a copy to be leaked.

Next there will be a movie advert with a link to a website www.ilovecriminalorganisations.com, just you watch

CJC (scuse me while I remove my tongue from my cheek)
--

Totally and Completely Offtopic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

It amuses me that there's such tremendous overlap between (1) people who angrily insist that copyright infringement not be called "piracy" or "theft," and (2) people who proudly insist that only homophobia could lead a person to believe that "marriage" is between a man and a woman.

Y'all have no problem raping words of their definitions when it suits your personal principles, do you?

Re:Totally and Completely Offtopic...

[Anonymous Coward]

"people who proudly insist that only homophobia could lead a person to believe that "marriage" is between a man and a woman."

From your comment I can tell you're against gay marriage. If you want to deny American citizens equal rights just because of their sexual preference, your motivation must be either homophobia, self-righteousness, mean-spiritedness, or some combination thereof.

Re:Totally and Completely Offtopic...

[Anonymous Coward]

IMO all the "protect our marrage" types really want to take it to the next step.
As Chris Rock says about people who start as patriots and against Arabs, then against illegal immigrants "Thats when I start listening because I know Niggers and Jews are next."

The next step thse supposed defenders of marrage want to take is to ban all forms of interracial/interethnic marrage. It will start with whites not being allowed to marry blacks or browns or reds. Eventually they will make it so sub groups of the groups can not marry. A jew cant marry a german, ect. This is all some some nutjobs can keep trying to protect their precious bodily fluids and keep the reace pure...

All you "protect the sanctity of marrage" types need to go back to school and learn about the civil right movement and all that was around it in the day. All your arguments why gays should not be treated as human beings are the same shit the fucking racists used to try to say blacks were souless animals.

Re:Inside Job ... don't be stupid...

[Anonymous Coward]

Firing programmers is the dumbest thing i'v read so far in this thread. Generally programmers are very carefull because they put their sweat and blood in the development process...

Usually, software is leaked by executives, marketting guys, press,... Very often, those people receive "free" or "evaluation" samples, and very often, they can't help but showing their friends/family, making copies for them... untill someone releases it on the web.

Rockstar method of catching thieves.

[DogDude]

And the thing is that you know the guys at Rockstar are some sick guys. I have a feeling that once the thief is found, he'll have his tires shot out. As the Rockstar guys catch up to him, they'll probably fire an uzi out the driver side window until his car catches on fire. Since, once the car is on fire, it's explosion is imminent, the occupant will jump out and run down the street, fleeing in terror. A Rockstar employee will knock him down with a shotgun blast, then beat him to death with a baseball bat. Of course, once he's dead, they'll steal his money. Then, I'm betting, they'll steal a sweet Jamaican gang car with hydraulics, and use said car and cash to pick up a prostitute.

ubiquitous enough

[celerityfm]

I don't know wtf I'm saying this morning but that one was pretty bad. heh.

I don't get it.

[tomstdenis]

Wouldn't the best way to continue to see "more of the same" be to support the creator of the content?

I mean if GTA is so popular [and personally I love the series] and you want to see more GTA wouldn't it make sense to buy a 50$ copy?

By pirating it all you're doing is hindering their ability to make new games. This isn't like the RIAA/MPAA situation. While I'm sure there are six figure execs at Rockstar I'm also sure that the bulk of the revenue goes straight back into employee salary.

I'm going to buy a copy because I think it's worth it and I want to support their endeavours. If I thought GTA was a waste of time/money I would...shock...gasp... NOT GET A COPY BY ANY MEANS!

So little kiddies who "must pirate" the game... grow the fuck up. Get a job and pay the 50$ for a copy of the game. What sickens me more is that even some of my friends [who are older than I am] still pirate games... lame lame lame lame lame.

Tom

Re:I don't get it.

[enjo13]

This is such fascinating ethics to me..

Let me understand:

1) It's OK to steal from companies that have executives that make a lot of money.

2) It's NOT OK to steal from companies that don't.

Did I get that right?

That's quite a rationalization.. the fact is that stealing is stealing. It doesn't matter where the money goes, or whose pocket it goes into. There is nothing wrong with being wealthy. I run a software company, I'm quite wealthy, but that doesn't mean you should be able to steal from me.

Re:I don't get it.

[soft_guy]

I run a software company, I'm quite wealthy, but that doesn't mean you should be able to steal from me.

You are not quite wealthy if you are posting to slashdot instead of getting blowjobs all day from supermodel whores. Second, if you were quite wealthy, it would mean that it was OK to steal from you. Plus, you would never even realize it because you'd be distracted by the supermodel whores giving you blowjobs all day.

Re:I don't get it.

[tomstdenis]

I never said it's ok to pirate music either.

My point was that if you buy GTA you can be assured that the money finds its way into the pockets of developers. That is it's a good thing. So pirating games like GTA end up hurting the "genre you like" or in broader terms "the hand that feeds you" much more effectively.

In the case of music it's simply not worth it because of the execs and I don't "Acquire" major-label music by any means [purchased or pirated]. This isn't that I hate all "pop music" just that for me to fork over the money to pay some fat cat is a waste so ... shock...gasp... do without!

If you're going to end up with a copy of GTA you might as well buy it so that you can fund their next great cool game.

Tom

Re:I don't get it.

[Yer Mom]

What if he's posting to Slashdot while getting a blowjob from a supermodel whore?

yay no need to search for warez anymore

[PhiberOptix]

good to know that now i dont need to search for warez anymore. I can find the latest info right here on /.

MOD PARENT UP!!!!!!!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Good, relevant, insightful quote.

Rights shmights

[glrotate]

Rights are only a social convention, a clause in the fuzzy social contract. There is nothing inherently valid about them.

Re:Rights shmights

[Anonymous Coward]

There's nothing inherently invalid about them, either.

Re:Rights shmights

[Anonymous Coward]

So you don't think humans have any rights? If someone attacks you on the street, robs you, kills you and eats your corpse, it's only wrong because it's a violation of an (apparently arbitrary) law, not because there's anything "inherently" wrong with it?

BTW - "only" a social convention? While it's true that asocial humans may have no rights or need for rights, how is that, given that we are obviously existing in a social continuum, an argument against anything?

Re:Rights shmights

[gordgekko]

That's the second time you've said that in the same debate. It's no more convincing the same time around, particularly when it spotlights your clear lack of understanding that "rights" and "social contracts" really are.

Does that mean your right to life is merely a clause in a fuzzy social convention?

And that should stop them?

[SeanDuggan]

The explanation is quite straight forward. It's lawyer-speak, and you can expect to see it standardised. Not always quite this similar, but it is no coincidence (or theft of MS' threats).
*snort* Yeah, and various software algorithms are standardised and the most obvious and simple answer to a question. It doesn't keep corporations from copywriting those. Free speech is becoming less free-like-beer these days.

Re:And that should stop them?

[Anonymous Coward]

Shoulda thrown an M$ in there champ. You would be looking at +5 by now.

How did he outsmart them

[SmallFurryCreature]

The pirates got version A and now that it is out they can rip version B.

Worse true fans now need to get the pirate version because they want to know the alternative ending. Similar to how movie fans want the directors cut and removed scenes.

Good

[Sentry21]

I don't approve of piracy in and of itself - people put a lot of time and hard work into this software, and the long hours they put in are no picnic, make no mistake. If their work has produced a result that is enjoyable, I think people should pay for it. A friend of mine has Neverwinter Nights and the two expansions, but I spent $50 on the Platinum instead of $0.50 on a blank DVD, because it's worth it.

That all being said, I am glad in a way that games are getting pirated, though it's not having the effect I'd like. My roommate downloaded Doom 3 before it was released, as (according to suprnova) did several hundred thousand other people. As a direct result, we wasted at least 20 minutes playing the game (waste is right) before we decided that it was hopeless - the graphics were phenominal - not realistic, but phenominal anyway. The physics was well-done as well, and the environment felt real.

The game, however, was terrible.

If I had bought the game for anything more than $5, I would have kicked myself, and even if I had paid $5, I could have gotten a pork roast for that and had a good dinner instead. It was a complete waste of time, and as much as we tried to justify playing it, eventually we got sick and gave up.

Doom 3 lost a lot of sales to piracy, not because people weren't forced to buy it, but because people realized they didn't WANT to buy it. If I download GTA:SA and I like it, I'll get it. If I don't, I'll delete it (well, I'll burn it off then lose the DVD, which is the same thing).

Thanks to the proliferation of broadband and bittorrent, piracy has become the way we test our content first. ISOs are the new game demos, Telesyncs are the new trailers, and media, for a good portion of those so-inclined in North America, purchases have moved into the honor system - every 'ware is shareware now, and people are starting to realize that it's easier to download and try it out than to haggle with the clerk at EB when they find out the much-hyped 'game of the century' is both uninspired and pointless.

So yes, I'm glad this is released - not necessarily before the game is out, but I don't honestly think that matters, except for the 'first-day sales' figures, and those are largely unaffected anyway.

--Dan

Re:Good

[Anonymous Coward]

the people that are actually putting the long hard hours in are compensated for their work, regardless of how well the game does. it is called a paycheck.

and if rockstar makes $10 mil in profit instead of 15mil do you really think they are gonna be like "fuck this, we arent making enough pure profit, lets close up shop"

Re:Good

[Have Blue]

Unfortunately, you are in a very small minority. I'm sure that at least 95% (giving your faction a very large benefit of the doubt) of downloads go to people who have no intention of ever buying the product even if they like it.

Re:Good

[Sentry21]

Perhaps, but I don't think those people would buy it if they couldn't pirate it. Some would, I suppose some would bug their parents for the must-haves, but generally speaking, most of the people out there wouldn't buy it anyway.

--Dan

Right to a profit?

[glrotate]

What if I don't recognize that right? Who gave you that right?

I think you mean, that it's the usual practice to profit from your work. But guess what, that's your problem not mine.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Snowmit]

What if I don't recognize that right? Who gave you that right?

Are you, NEW? Those rights are enshrined in a variety of copyright legislations and international treaties. Just because you disagree with them doesn't mean that you get free reign to ignore them anymore than the fact that I disagree with the taboo against murder allows me to come over there and kill you with this shiv.

Re:Right to a profit?

[RedK]

The U.S. Constitution gives that right. You do recognize those rights as granted by the U.S. Constitution right ?

Re:Right to a profit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Where in the Constitution does is specify you have the right to profit?

Re:Right to a profit?

[Hatta]

The constitution does not grant rights. It only codifies some of the inalienable rights we are endowed with by our creator, as noted in the declaration of independence.

Re:Right to a profit?

[DMadCat]

What if I don't recognize your right to privacy or your right to own property?

What tune would you be playing were I to walk into your house, sit down, flip on the TV and make myself at home? Maybe on my way out I'll grab some stuff I find appealing.

Bottom line: Some group of people went to a hell of a lot of trouble to create that game so they could make the money they need to live. If some of them make a little more money so be it. That's the American Dream after all. To make a ton of cash doing something you love to do and raise your standard of living.

I wonder how the thief would like it if (in the case they even have a job) come payday they were told they wouldn't receive a check because we already got the work out of you and we don't feel like paying you for it now.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Do it. If we start thinning the numbers of these "digital liberationists" maybe they will shut the fuck up about how stealing someone elses work is sticking it to the man.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Aim Here]

Well being of foreignese extraction, nationality and residence, I don't recognise that constitution of yours at all. In fact, I'm slightly pissed off when your country decides it has a right to tell my country what to do, but that's some other can of worms that doesn't need opening here.

I seem to recall, however, that your bit of paper says that the point of copyright is to secure enough money for the makers of certain types of work to make a living - the point isn't necessarily to make absolutely everyone who uses said works pay up, that's just a method by which this compensation is secured.

Now if the makers of GTA: San Andreas were going hungry, you might have a point, but I'm guessing that, piracy or not, Rockstar are going to make shedloads of money on this game, more than enough to feed, clothe and house themselves and make another game too, into the bargain.

So, in this particular case, the spirit, if not the actual letter, of the US constitution, is going to be preserved, no matter what.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Anonymous Coward]

Of course they don't have a right to profit, if it doesn't sell they're out of luck. What the parent poster was saying is that they have a right to profit from people using their product.

You have every right to not use it, you have NO right to use it without purchasing a copy (unless you're like, at a friend's house playing his copy).

Re:Right to a profit?

[fucksl4shd0t]

The U.S. Constitution gives that right. You do recognize those rights as granted by the U.S. Constitution right ?

Actually, it doesn't. The US Constitution (Article 1, Section 8) gives Congress the power to temporarily secure rights to works of Art and Invention. A reason is given, but I don't recall the exact verbiage. It's along hte lines of "We'll secure these rights temporarily for the Creator, so in the long run we'll have the work for all of society".

We inherited our IP legacy from the Brits, and philosophically it is identical to the Brits.

Further, excellent, reading on the subject can be had here.

Re:Right to a profit?

[fucksl4shd0t]

What tune would you be playing were I to walk into your house, sit down, flip on the TV and make myself at home? Maybe on my way out I'll grab some stuff I find appealing.

I'd say "damn sweetheart, there is a God, and he just created a TV in our house. That bastard." :) (No TV, get it?)

Bottom line: Some group of people went to a hell of a lot of trouble to create that game so they could make the money they need to live. If some of them make a little more money so be it. That's the American Dream after all. To make a ton of cash doing something you love to do and raise your standard of living.

I'm crying, I really am. These guys making the game are each likely to be making 2-5 times what I'm making and are likely to gross more on sales when the game is finally released than I'll ever see in my lifetime. Additionally, I just know that the game being leaked is going to generate additional sales they wouldn't have otherwise gotten. This news of the leak just creates more press for the game, and in this business there's no such thing as bad press. So I'm really crying that some minority of folks are playing a leaked version of the game without paying for it.

Now I'll go scrape the soles of my shoes and try to make a little stew out of it. It's not like I have any food anymore.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm crying, I really am. These guys making the game are each likely to be making 2-5 times what I'm making and are likely to gross more on sales when the game is finally released than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

So you are basically saying that because you are jealous of how much money they make it gives you the right to download their IP? What a load of crap!

Re:Right to a profit?

[aiabx]

Ummm, actually it codifies rights believed by the authors to be endowed by the creator. I personally have not seen the big stone tablet at the centre of the universe where the creator has explicitly codifed my right to possess an automatic rifle, own property or elect the judiciary.
Speaking as a non-American, I can see that as constitutions go, the US constitution isn't a bad one, but it is a social construct. I'm always perplexed by people who treat it like the fifth gospel.
-aiabx

Re:Right to a profit?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Here's a little clue. Any sentence that starts with the words "So what you are saying" or variations of those words is bullshit. It's a common tactic to take something someone says, use the words "So what you're saying", and manipulate what was actually said into something that is either intended to inflame the original talker or is now diametrically opposed to the original talker's position. It's a discrediting tactic, and serves no useful purpose in intelligent discourse.

Re:Right to a profit?

[Disevidence]

What I am saying is that you are a pedantic asshole. And I'm not even the AC above.

For the record, your post (the grandparent) smacked of salary envy.

Re:Right to a profit?

[fucksl4shd0t]

Ha-ha. Irrelevant. I get so sick of people trying to put words in my mouth that I only respond to those questions by pointing out the flaw in the question, and refusing to answer it until it is restated. Since the AC chickened out and didn't restate his question, I have nothing to answer. :)

Call it pedantic if you want, but I have neither judged you nor have I put words in your mouth. Think about it.

Oh, there's no Bittorent link...

[artemis67]

In order to steal the game, you have to beat up enough cops and hookers in your town, and run over a few pedestrians on your way to work, and then you will be approached by a mysterious stranger who will send you on a mission that will result in your getting a bootleg copy of GTA:SA.

Re:Oh, there's no Bittorent link...

[fafaforza]

Interestingly enough, there was an episode of Crossballs (or whatever the mockup debate show was) last night (probably a repeat) and they had one of the comics play a man how was in a "club" that played out GTA in real life in their city.

They had a clip of a high speed police chase from a helicopter, a la the old GTA.

Their premise was that they shot people with paintballs (It isn't illegal to spill coffee on someone's shirt) so raiding a game shop and stealing a copy of the game would probably fall under the rules of the game.

Re:Oh, there's no Bittorent link...

[blincoln]

Their premise was that they shot people with paintballs (It isn't illegal to spill coffee on someone's shirt)

That sounds like a statement made by someone who's never actually played paintball - in reference to whoever wrote the script, not you.

The paint is only a minor concern, since it washes out relatively easily. However, the balls are propelled at several hundred feet per second. They can easily take out an eye, and can leave permanent scars at close range on unprotected skin.

It's an awesome game, but a marker is not something you should ever point at someone who isn't wearing at least a face mask.

To steal or not to steal?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes I couldn't decide to "steal" it or not either, so I figured out what's going to make up my mind:

If you can swim in this one, I'll buy it. If every time you touch the water, you bite the big one, and have to start a mission over where 50% of it is DRIVING ACROSS THE F-ING island to get to a bank where during the holdup, a glitch means my hostage won't follow me, and then I have to restart the game and watch every splash screen through a painfully slow load; then I'll steal it.

Problem solved.

Re:To steal or not to steal?

[obeythefist]

One of the Gamespy previews I read mentioned that swimming is possible in this game.

In fact the game includes a pseudo-RPG type system for determining your fitness and abilities.

In the first game, running around eventually increased your stamina, so you could run for longer without becoming tired.

In the new game, you eat food, and can go to a gym to pump iron to become stronger. This will in turn help you fight and run and ride your bicycle (apparently you can ride a BMX around).

Whether this level of sims-style personal micromanagement is a good thing for GTA remains to be seen.

What did they expect????

[DarkMantle]

I mean the game is Grand Theft Auto.... it's a game where you're a thief and your stealing things in a modern world.

Hell, one could argue they taught us to do this

And BTW: I thought the term was "Copyright Infringement" which is different from theft.

Re:Inside Job ... don't be stupid...

[Trigun]

What part of "Seriously though" did you not understand?

Simpel answer, Planescape Torment

[SmallFurryCreature]

Everyone seems to have played it. It certainly is mentioned enough whenever RPG's are discussed and is regarded by many as one of finest PC RPG's ever.

The sales however for it were piss poor. So poor that a sequel is not planned to one of the best RPG's ever according to many fansites.

So if noone bought it how can everyone have played it? Piracy.

I myself used to buy far more games. I still play them but most are downloaded not bought. (I do own all my Black Isle games legally) I justify it to myselve by only downloading games from companies that I have grown fedup with them screwing me.

There was a recent article about someone from lucasarts talking about the cost of 2D adventures. He talked about the cost of the box etc and how the cost would go up if they included some gifts like they used to in the olden days. Yeah, no fucking kidding mate. I remember Battle of Britain and Secret weapons of Luftwaffe coming with thick binder manuals complete with a history of the war. Compare this with x-wing and later black and white sheet. Geez, value for money.

Things like online manuals, gigantic bugs, incredibly short gameplay, european releases months later, no patches for the dutch-release despite the fact I don't want or need a dutch translated version, total lack of progress in AI, every other game being a boring FPS have made me loose hope. It must be said that I still buy games but the game market has fewer games I like.

But that doesn't make it any different that by downloading the game I am not putting money into the pocket of the developers to pay them for their time and effort.

Games cost a lot of money to put on the market and by piracy their is less chance of recovering the costs through sales.

Personally I think it is at least partly the fault of the games industry. Lets face it. GTA is not exactly aimed at the adult player with money to spend. It is aimed at kids with very limited income and lots of things to spend on (more so then in the past, mobile phones are huge extra cost as are games wich previous generations did not have).

Make the box you buy something to have. If the entire game can be played without a manual then yeah you have made a very accisable game. You just also increased the ease of piracy a thousand fold.

One of the worst examples must be Microsofts Flight Simulator. If ever there was a game crying out for a good paper manual to have besides you on the desk it is this one. But no, MS in its infinite wisdom put all the documentation on the CD (in a horrible unreadble manner) and upped the retail price. Smart move MS. Might as well put a sticker on the box saying "SUCKER".

Your right about copy protection. It doesn't work. Never has never will. It only affects the legitamete buyers.

Game industry keep it up. Remove any "extra" bonus from owning the legal version, make the legal version harder and harder to use, reduce the game time, up the price and make your website register only. We will all reward you with lots and lots of our cash. Oh and please, remember to include lots and lots of bugs. We need them, nothing like paying to beta test your games. Especially when we know everyone else is doing it for free.

Steam and MMO games seem to be imune to piracy, Steam is about to face its trial but MMO games seem to be near death. Yes World of Warcraft is coming out but is it just small vocal minority that is exited? Like Planescape Torment, it doesn't matter how many people like a game, what matters is how many buy it. The game industry is reducing the incentive to buy and piracy is making it easy not to buy. Something has to change.

Re:Simpel answer, Planescape Torment

[drew]

while i agree with you overall, i would hardly say that grand theft auto is targeted towards kids. in fact, i would say that the growing trend these days is to not target games towards kids, but towards young adults who have much more money to spend on new games and consoles. i would guess that the target market for gta, halo 2, and most other new xbox and ps2 games is around 18-26. only nintendo has continued to focus most of its efforts on the younger age group, and look where it's gotten them.

Re:Simpel answer, Planescape Torment

[drinkypoo]

I never bought planescape torment, yet I played it. How did I do this? I stole it from the store. No, I'm kidding, I borrowed it from a coworker. This is a constant danger of RPGs; because they tend to have little replay value you can typically just borrow it from someone after they beat it.

Re:Simpel answer, Planescape Torment

[mink]

Everyone I know who played planescape torment bought the vale version that was like $10 It was bundled with something else I dont remember.

A lot of people never heard of it when it came out and IMO the piss poor marketing/advertising is why it didnt sell well.

So instead of blaming the failure of your pet game (a game I like quite a bit) blindly only on piracy maybe you sould think for a moment there was maybe something more the publisher/developer could have done to get more people into it before it became a sleeper hit in the bargain bins.

Your thinking far to complex

[SmallFurryCreature]

What is being stolen is the nearly finished game. This isn't the very rare Half-Life 2 leak, this is simple a pressed cd or the master for it being lifted by someone inside the factory.

Thieving from work is pretty normal but has a new twist with cd's. If I steal a car then all I have is 1 car. If I steal a cd I can run off an infinite amount of copies. Noone would risk their job by stealing 1 monopoly game. But 1 game cd is a different story.

Sure they could increase security at the pressing plant but that would involve spending money. Hiring motivated employees for who this job is a keeper and not just another minimum wager.

Easier to cry foul and put up rewards then to make sure your employees are satisfied enough with their jobs not to steal.

How is this news?

[THESuperShawn]

Almost EVERY game/app/cd appears in the newsgroups before it's release. It has been that way for some time. Not every release is in English, but it is usually out before the published release date.

Just when you thought

[Anonymous Coward]

iso news was dead, slashdot picks up the slack and announces the new releases for us!

MOD THE PARENT UP

[advocate_one]

and stop modding down anything that goes against your own personal politics. MODERATORS, read the bl00dy MODERATOR GUIDELINES, your supposed to be modding things up and only smack down obvious trolls and GNAA dreck, I do.

Re:MOD THE PARENT UP

[clifyt]

Yeah, but you haven't read the hidden guidelines that say Ignore What You Read, If Its Not What You Believe It Is Obviously A Troll Or Flamebait.

This is slashdot...its run by the trolls anymore. I'd rather have a troll that thought about both sides of the issue to fuck with you than the fucking morons that seem to run it now that only want to see their side presented.

Up with the trolls.

Perhaps like "Knight of the old republic"?

[SmallFurryCreature]

The PC version will have the quest bugs fixed and extra content?

Lets not forget that a console is also 1 piece of hardware exactly the same for everyone. The PC will at least have to work with both Nvidia and Ati cards. Coding for one causes the other to throw a hissy fit.

At least it is better then Lucasarts. A PC company that has totally neglected the PC recently despite the fact that it was on the PC they grew big.

I rather wait a bit for the PC version of a game then have to get a console (other then my gba) in my house. Perhaps the version will be better. In any case, at least we can have our bugs patched. Feel better now?

Information wants to be free

[JustDisGuy]

But artists want to get paid. There are obviously no copy protection schemes that can not be circumvented, short of letting Palladium pwn the box, so what do we do to fix it?

The reality of the situation is simple - if the practice of creating and providing new art (software, music, whatever) is not profitable, there will be a great deal less content being made available to the masses.

Lots of people here are calling each other thieves and whining about infringement vs. theft and generally bickering, but I haven't seen anyone trying to fix the situation. How can we provide content that is freely shareable to the public, and yet ensure that content creators are appropriately (perhaps itself a matter for debate) remunerated?

I propose this - government sponsored artists who get paid based on the number of unique users of their product. Everytime I fire up my "free" version of Photoshop (or GTA, or Celine Dion's whatever) it shoots an informational 'bullet' at a government server where my IP, my unique machine ID and the content ID is recorded. The government tracks the number of unique users (but NOT! the identity of those users!!) of a given product and directly pays the content provider an agreed upon sum per use. The source of the funds could be an entertainment tax that is levied specifically for this purpose, and which you pay voluntarily. Those who pay get their unique ID issued, those who do not, don't. There may (and almost certainly would be) continued piracy, but I think the vast majority of people would willingly participate in such a scheme, because it simplifies the situation for them and it ensures that people who create content continue to get paid.

There would of course be losers in this scheme, and they would be those who currently occupy the position of 'middle man'. They would still be able to represent and promote artists, but artists would also be able to choose to forego that representation and promotion in favor of payments made directly to them.

Whaddya think?

Re:Information wants to be free

[JustDisGuy]

Sorry to reply to my own comment, but it belatedly occurred to me that the government doesn't even have to be involved. Just an independant company and the content providers forming agreements to cooperate.

Hmmm. Maybe the RIAA and the MPAA could even take this idea and do somethinng with it to ensure that they do remain relevant.

Re:Information wants to be free

[Anonymous Coward]

A ps2 is very similar to a palladium (or what is called today) pc, so...

Re:Information wants to be free

[ElectricPoppy]

"government sponsored..." You lost as soon as you typed that...

Re:Information wants to be free

[DCheesi]

That'll work great ...until the same hackers who used to crack copyright protections switch to hacking the usage tracking system. Suddenly "H@hA_sUx0rz!IrUl3!" is the #1 game in the country...

I prefer educational titles...

[Rorschach1]

I've spent the last two days solid in French language immersion on my XBox.

Re:I prefer educational titles...

[t35t0r]

HALO2 PIRATE!!!

Re:I prefer educational titles...

[drinkypoo]

OBVIOUS JOKE EXPLAINER!

Re:I prefer educational titles...

[celerityfm]

Bud Light Presents: Real Men of Genius
(real men of genius)

Here's to you, Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer.
(Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer!)

Without you, the half-wits of the world just wouldn't understand the humor on /.
(Wouldn't have a cluee-eeee!)

They'd spend hours searching the net for an explanation and might end up killing themselves in frustration.
(One less moron in the worrrld!)

But thanks to you they can pretend to have gotten the joke from the beginning like the rest of us.
(Wasn't that funnayyyyy!)

So crack open an ice-cold Bud Light, Mr. Obvious Joke Explainer-- You know that not everyone gets the obscure /. jokes and you know how to ruin the humor for the rest of us!
(Mr. Obvious Joke Explainerrrrrr!)

/sarcasm :)

Re:I prefer educational titles...

[Anonymous Coward]

LOL

Re:Clarification - Thank you Mr AC

[Squash]

Where are my mod points when I need them? Finally, someone who gets it!

Theft can only apply to physical things. If I steal your CD, I have stolen your CD. If I copy your CD, I have (potentially) violated copyright law, but that is not Theft.

Come on Slashdot, you're supposed to be the "smart", "enlightened" crowd. Stop embracing ignorance!

What if Retail Sales Aren't Affected by This?

[Anonymous Coward]

This could actually be a good thing. If sales of San Anderas are still fantastic, it could serve as yet more evidence that copyright infringement doesn't necessarily affect sales in a negative way.

People who pirate the game and don't end up buying a retail copy would probably not have bought the game anyway, thus no lost sale. I'm guessing that most people that download the version from the P2P networks just want to play it early and will buy their own retail copy when it's released.

Comment removed

[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Re:Clarification - Thank you Mr AC

[danila]

I think we need an addition to the lameness filter. It should restrict people from using words "steal", "theft" or "thief/thieves" in discussions where the writeup mentions "piracy" or "copyright".

Why is this considered news ?

[data64]

Pretty much every big budget game that gets released or is about to be released is pirated. So why do we need to have a Front Page story everytime some analyst wants to rant about piracy.

PlayStation and XBox

[danila]

I just love that we have these great news for PC gaming. It turns out that XBox and PlayStation 2 games are not immune to piracy. Hopefully these well-publicised reports will make some publishers wary of this tired "no piracy" argument for console platforms.

"Aggressive pursuit"?

[talaphid]

Is that the RIAA/MPAA branded version of the classic Trivial Pursuit?

they asked for it?

[Anonymous Coward]

A game that encourages theft and hurting others. And yet, when someone actually steals their game and hurts their profit, they cry for better morals.

Re:they asked for it?

[Legion303]

You're one of those severely retarded people who can't tell the difference between reality and a videogame, aren't you?

GTA Intellectual?

[Smiffa2001]

"We take the theft of our intellectual property very seriously and we are and will continue to diligently and aggressively pursue this matter."

Since when has GTA ever been intellectual?!??

So...

[shigelojoe]

Does the unauthorized distribution of an unreleased video game bump the meter up to two stars, three stars, or what?

I... er, my friend needs to know if he should expect regular police, the FBI, or the Army.

(Where's the nearest police bribe pick up, anyway?)

A lot of current software...

[Kadmium]

I'm aware of Cubase and Lightwave that use dongles. Cubase and related software can be quite tricky about it... Hypersonic, for example is a virtual instrument, and if it detects that the dongle driver has been cracked, it doesn't give out an error, it simply adds bugs and makes some of the presets sound crap. The Lightwave dongle actually contains some of the program's code, so that some operations are performed on the dongle. If you try to do these operations with the cracked version, you get weird and cryptic errors.

NOT LEGAL - SO WHAT

[fadethepolice]

A one sided agreement dictated by one party and backed up with the use of force is not morally binding, whether it is technically legal or not. I never agreed to the distribution system and am indifferent to the legal code. If you want my money you have to come up with a system that I am comfortable with.

Piracy is going to strengthen subscription model

[fitten]

Well, we've already seen it start happening, but I think that piracy will be one of the reasons most companies will move to a subscription model. Basically, the software that you get (whether legit or not) will be useless without a paid subscription. This will pretty much move all games towards a MMO model, even if they are small grouped like Diablo.

I could even see where a single player game may be subscription based where you have to be online and connected to a server and paying a subscription in order to play at all.

I guess as much as folks hate a software rental model, piracy may just be the thing to give the companies enough of a reason to switch to this model.

Folks will not like the model but they will have brought it on themselves.

I'm like this

[One Childish N00b]

with both games and CDs.

When I hear a band I like has a new CD out, unless I'm *really* sure they are musical Gods who could never put a foot wrong, I will download a couple of tracks to see if I actually like the album and it's not just that catchy single drawing me in. If a friend suggests a band to me, I'll download 2 or 3 tracks to see if I like them before I'll spend money on an album - I consider this fair to me and to the record companies. Ditto with games - I'll download it and if I like it I'll buy it.

The reason is threefold:
a) I don't like stealing. If I like something, I will pay for it - I just like to know if I'm going to like something before I hand over the cash.

b) I like owning the official media. I'm a collector at heart, and CDs are like collector's items - I like the warm, fuzzy feeling that comes with owning every DVD of my favourite TV series, or every album by my favourite band - Burned copies just don't cut it, and that brings me on to

c) CD-Rs tend to be fairly fragile - I've had the important layer come off in chunks from even the most well-protected CDs after even the most minimal of handling - how do the real warez freaks do it? What are you using that ultra-1337 warezed copy of 3D Studio MAX! (Which every warez kiddie seems to have, but none know how to use) for once that all-important layer's gone? bragging rights?

Personally, I buy far more CDs since I had access to P2P and other filesharing methods - the only CDs I've downloaded and not paid for have been ones I *genuinely* couldn't find availible *anywhere* (US bands' demo-releases rarely make it to these shores), and the same with games - I've been introduced to so many games via the medium of P2P or borrowing copies from friends, for instance Medal of Honour - I copied one game in the series off a mate and guess what? I've now bought every one since - sure I didn't pay for the first one initially, but I wouldn't have paid for any of the others if I hadn't experienced it first with a (technically illegal) 'borrowed' copy.

Good job.

[Other Than That...]

It is rare to see someone post something as intelligent as this on slashdot. I've read the other emotionally charged responses to this, and they seem to be along the lines of:

"What?! No one has a right to profit!?" and "If people can get something for free, they will!"

Both of these statements are true, if in the right context:

The first one is true if you do not provide a product or a service that people want. If I start a company that sells only rusty nails, I can't complain when all my hard work and investment gets me nothing. However, should I create something that millions of people want, say a sequel to a popular game, I have a right to profit when people obtain copies of it, because - shock - I'm not giving it away for free.

The second one is true as well, if you accept that the people who do so are morally bankrupt. Of course free is better than not free, but - and here's the point again - they aren't giving it away for free. They worked on it, it's theirs, and if you want one, you have to pay for it. If it costs too much, don't buy it! It's luxury item, you don't need it!

Justify all you want, it's still wrong. And despite all the lovely semantics people like to use to make themselves feel better, I personally still consider it theft.

Re:Good job.

[mattgreen]

The fact that they even play a game of semantics instead of accepting responsibility for their own actions is indicative of their guilty conscience. When was the last time you had to rephrase, "I'm downloading the latest version of the Linux kernel right now" in an online discussion?

If you were okay with what you were doing you wouldn't even feel the need to defend it, much less twist words around or spout some philosophical nonsense as if it actually negates the fact that the law is being broken.

Re:Good job.

[JaxGator75]

HaHaHa!

I haven't laughed that hard since I heard Halo2 in French...

Seriously, though, you "Right to Profit" people need a quick wake-up call to the real world. As the owner of a small business that was put under by dirty-dealing competitors, I can tell you that your "Right to Profit" never existed. You can do just like I did: follow all the rules, work hard and provide a valuable service at a fair price, only to be run out of town on a rail, broke and dejected, through no fault of your own. Right to Profit indeed...

As far as feeling bad and guilty consciences, you may have over-estimated the people of which you speak. The key is to NOT see the rest of the world through your tiny little eyes when you try to figure out how we're all thinking...

Re: if you want one, you have to pay for it. If it costs too much, don't buy it! It's luxury item, you don't need it! Spoken like a person who has never had to do without. Before you regale us with tales of that time you didn't get a new car for Graduation: save it. People who HAVE gone to bed hungry don't see your noble "Do Without" sentiment in the same light. When "Do Without" and "Take It Without Depriving Anyone Else of Anything" are your only options, we'll all be impressed when you chose to impose unnecessary restrictions on yourself.

Until then, I'll freely sample items for personal use, delete them when I'm done and buy the items I plan on either keeping forever, using in a professional endeavor or would normally buy anyway. All the games and DVDs and MP3s that I can't afford (I have legitimate reasons, but I don't owe you an explanation) are a different story. Spend your time and energy arresting those who sell "pirated" DVDs and games on eBay or the street corner. Those are criminals, and they don't even "play semantics".

Re:Good job.

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell does copying a video game have to do with going to bed hungry? We are talking about a video game, not a loaf of bread, or medicine. A video game is a luxury, you won't die or suffer without it. What kind of lame analogy was that?

Spoken like someone who grew up poor, and because of that, think that the world owes them whatever they want regardless of the consequences.

Re:Good job.

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate people who don't knwo what culture is and why it's vitaly important to people.

Re:Good job.

[saintlupus]

People who HAVE gone to bed hungry don't see your noble "Do Without" sentiment in the same light. When "Do Without" and "Take It Without Depriving Anyone Else of Anything" are your only options, we'll all be impressed when you chose to impose unnecessary restrictions on yourself.

Yeah, that's why I keep downloading macaroni and cheese off of gnutella.

Asshat.

--saint

Re:Good job.

[JaxGator75]

Way to miss the point! Also a nice way to avoid discussing the points made in my statement. . .

Had we been discussing availability of food and the ability to duplicate it freely without detracting from the inherent value of the original, your disdainful comments might be valid. Until then, I'll be glad to be considered an asshat by the likes of you.

Re:Good job.

[saintlupus]

Way to miss the point! Also a nice way to avoid discussing the points made in my statement.

As far as I could tell, your "point" was that you have every right to download software and other material that you have no license to, and that people who don't think you do have never been hungry or otherwise materially impoverished.

How exactly you managed to go from an appeal based on hunger for food to one based on the desire to play some silly video game was left as an exercise for the reader. Myself, as the reader, assumed that this was just another childish and pathetic justification for stealing software and so I called you an asshat.

If you do have some sort of actual argument, please, feel free to put it forth.

--saint

It happens all the time

[TheLink]

Actually it's a bit like another sales channel. And your sales person hardly needs to spend any time at all.

People copy the software, install it (without support), use it. Get dependent on it. Then all you need to do is get them to hand over money for some itsy bits of paper or even just itsy bits.

In fact apparently the Microsoft Boss in my country scolded his staff for taking the hardline against infringers. He said something to the effect of "These are happy users of our software, they have done all the work of installing, configuring it themselves, now all we have to do is get them to hand over the money, why are you taking them to court?".

And the sales-proposition is pretty simple: coz over here if they don't license it is about 10x to 100x the cost in fines per infringing copy, plus the bosses risk _jail_time_. Yep jail time for managers and bosses.

Jail-time really gets management's attention. Fines come out of the Company's coffers, jail-time comes out of _your_own_ life.

Which would you rather happen - people buy your competitors stuff and get used to its idiosyncracies? Or you let everyone copy your stuff, and you just go up to those with money and ask them to hand some over?

It works really well if there are network-effects. e.g. multiplayer games, proprietary protocols/document formats, communications software.

What about iLok?

[TibbonZero]

iLok works pretty damn well. People figured out a way to reset some of the stuff a while ago, but the newest version is pretty tight so far.

iLok is used for several TDM and RTAS plugins mainly for Logic, Protools, and DP. I think Max/MSP and Pluggo also use it.

If someone knows a stable hack for this... please tell me, but I think they have fixed all of the holes so far.

Re:Why you gotta Nietzsche-hate, yo?

[Anonymous Coward]

You know he ain't like that! And yo boy Kant is a bitch.

daaamn. snap. *dances around, waving hands*

MOD THIS PARENT UP!

[Anonymous Coward]

How true it is that Slashdot has become so lame that in order to get all sides of an issue one MUST rely on trolls.

Not a business: industry

[Anonymous Coward]

Game development is a *business*.

You got it wrong pal. Notice these people specifically don't mention anymore "the game business," it's "the game industry," just like "music industry" and "movie industry." That's because "business" implies some form of customer service, or at least an attempt to customer satisfaction, as in making long-term plans based on a growing customer base etc. But these people aren't interested in that, they're interested in making money from the manufacture and sale of goods, which is what industry is all about. You make something, sell it to as many people as you can, and move on. Of course, there are still (mostly small) shops that are interested in the business, but not RIAA, MPAA, and G(ame)IAA members.

A "business" would try to keep a balance between profits and customer satisfaction. An "industry" tries to make as much as possible on each product, regardless of customer satisfaction.

Pirated games never used to make the news...

[DeTHZiT]

I remember a few years ago you would have NEVER heard of a pirated game make the news. And really, for all those in the know, games were routinely released in warez form weeks, sometimes months, before the actual release.

I think this is all a bunch of scare tactics by the media. Game companies know these sort of activities only have a marginal effect on their bottom lines. It's always been a constant. Hell, sometimes it's like free marketing.

Besides, most of the people who are into trading these leaked games are kids who can't afford to buy them anyways.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a good thing that games get pirated, but it's been happening since software was invented. Don't beleive the media hype, because sooner or later there's going to be a story about "The pandemic of software piracy".

Blurred lines...

[anakin357]

Depends on the license, but usually no it is not illegal to resell software, provided you remove all copies from your hard drive and erase backups that you have made of the software.

You can sell the medium that you bought the content on.
You bought the medium, and in doing so were provided with the licensed content.

If while buying a DVD you happen to ask the clerk,
"Can I sell this DVD on eBay when I'm done watching it?"

They will most certainly reply, "Of course you can."

But if you never agreed to the license to begin with (IE never installed it, or in some cases, never broke the seal), then you really can do whatever you want - it's physical medium you own and have the right to sell, but the licensed content is not yours to sell.

Screenshots link?

[nazgul000]

One thing I haven't seen here yet is a link to any screenshots of the leaked game -- anyone care to step up and deliver?

Re:Piracy is going to strengthen subscription mode

[Cederic]

Yeah, because companies that produce high quality games never make any money from them at all. Ever.

I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong - but if that does happen, it's due to corporate greed and not because of an inability to fund development through standard sales.

Whether the market stands for it is an interesting question.. I haven't played Rome Total War for a week - I'd be very resentful if I'd had to pay for a week's subscription to be unable to play it - especially since I am playing Battlefield Vietnam instead. Seeing as 'per use' payments are definitely not accepted by the mass market (notice all the MMORPGs charging flat rates) the average gamer can not and will not pay for multiple subscriptions just because he has several games that he hasn't finished playing yet. So it may well be that such a subscription model wont fly anyway..

MMORPGs are an interesting counter to my argument - they are indeed charging per-month subscriptions and making a lot of money (collectively) by doing so. However, they are all also continually evolving and adding new content, and also providing a compelling social experience - that social experience is fundamental to their product, and not present in a single-player game.

~Cederic

'Steal this Game' ...

[RichCorb]

Steal this Game was part of an ad campaign that was run for one of the early GTA games:

"Does anyone remember the 'Steal this Game' posters that were plastered over the major cities of the world to advertise Grand Theft Auto on debut? Or even the billboards with free copies of the game attached to them? Certainly funny, and also draped in a little irony, that they would spend countless money on an advertising campaign effectively asking people to rob the companies money."

Reference: here!

Ironic really (isn't it?) how things come back round.

Re:Clarification - Thank you Mr AC

[BJH]

Well done. If there were such a lameness filter, it would have blocked you from posting that.

Oblig. Wayne's World Quote

[xCepheus]

"So what's the difference between Pacman and Ms. Pacman?"

"Well you see, Ms. Pacman has a bow on her head, and that's basically it."

DSP dongles

[tepples]

Or emulators that can "emulate" the dongle (again using data read from it)

Unless, as in the case of a few high-end audio editing programs, the program does significant processing on the dongle.

Seen any ways to copy, download and play GameCube games lately?

Yes. Thanks to Game Boy Player, almost every Game Boy Advance game (except tilt sensor, photo sensor, and Majesco video titles) is now a GameCube game.

Re:DSP dongles

[Anonymous Coward]

Seen any ways to copy, download and play GameCube games lately?

Yes. Thanks to Game Boy Player, almost every Game Boy Advance game (except tilt sensor, photo sensor, and Majesco video titles) is now a GameCube game.

Wow your reading comprehension sucks ass. Sorry but a GBA player mounted on a gamecube in no way copies, or downloads the GBA game. IT lets you play them.

Also they are not gamecube games just because you can play them on a cube with a GBA emu (thats what the GBA player disc is)

I see the "I'm SMART!" way you were trying to twist things and seem all 1337 but as other would say You Fail IT!

Re:DSP dongles

[tepples]

Sorry but a GBA player mounted on a gamecube in no way copies, or downloads the GBA game. IT lets you play them.

I connect the flash linker from my PC to the Game Boy Player's serial port, put the flash card in, and then click Write Flash in the flash card software.

Also they are not gamecube games just because you can play them on a cube with a GBA emu (thats what the GBA player disc is)

You're right, but the Game Boy Player is not an emulator but actual GBA hardware that outputs video to the GameCube instead of to an LCD. If it were an emulator, then Game Paks containing special hardware wouldn't work.

Lieberman

[j.bellone]

Senator Joe Lieberman has continuously pushed for violent video games to be banned from the United States. He believes that they cause our children to commit murder, vandalism, and robbery. In fact, this could be a conspiracy plot to begin legal action against Rockstar before the game even gets out. Senator Lieberman. Do we want him in office? Do not vote Lieberman. It's your last chance.

I am a slashdot reader, and I support this annoucement.

Barrier to entry

[tepples]

At the end of the day the company wants to make money, why should they release it just for the PC when they can sell it in much larger volumes on the consoles?

This doesn't apply to Rockstar, but what about new game development firms? Incumbent console makers and incumbent licensed publishers won't even talk to a firm that doesn't yet have a decent selling PC game in its portfolio.

Super FX dongle

[tepples]

Instead of wasting money developing protection dongles (which will be cracked).

In the era of Super NES, did anybody ever crack the Super FX coprocessor used in games such as Star Fox (called Starwing in Europe), Stunt Race FX, and Doom? Not only did it act as a copy protection measure for the Super NES games that used it, but it also offloaded much of the game's processing for the CPU. Likewise, some high-end audio editing programs for the PC run their effects on a DSP inside a dongle.

Re:Super FX dongle

[gilesjuk]

Maybe it was more a case of why bother, too much effort for too little gain.

Games for the CD32 console used a chip that was specific to that console (it did chunky to planar bitmap conversion), yet it was emulated on the Amiga A1200/4000 in software. Ran full speed if the Amiga in question had "fast" RAM.

There's quite a difference between a dongle which is purely something that is a key to unlock some software, compared with actual hardware that is required to use the software.

Why Pong isn't in MAME

[tepples]

There was even one guy when I was just a lad who had built his own Pong box (but certainly didn't write the software on the ROM himself).

Pong didn't have a ROM per se, as it was built out of discrete logic parts soldered to a PCB.

CS is not online-only

[tepples]

The only effective copy protection I've ever seen is to make a compelling online-only game such as Counter-Strike.

I don't know about CS: Source, but Counter-Strike is not an online-only game, as it allows for LAN parties disconnected from the public Internet. Currently, only the MMORPGs are online-only.

Re:CS is not online-only

[celerityfm]

You are right, its easy enough to play CS:Lan, but most people buy CS for online play.

Also we shouldn't forget CS: Condition Zero :P

BUT SHE'S GOT A NEW HAT!

[Anonymous Coward]

I want it! I want it! Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!

Why have game licensing?

[john-gal]

With games increasingly becoming multiplayer and internet based, why have a price on the game at all? Is it not a viable business model to give the games for free (if played in a single player mode) and have a per session cost (99c like iPod music store) to logon to a central server and play the game with others? There would be no necessity for pirating the game then.

Apple ][ games?

[eamonman]

I recall seeing cracked Apple II/IIc games around then too, although I guess it would have been at the earliest in '84. The only one I recall clearly though was choplifter, but there were others as well. I didn't know how my older cousins got them, but I think that's the first time I ever saw "cracked by" (it's amazing that little kids like me learned what 'brun' means)

It Hurts

[MPauley73]

As a devolper myself, not good enough to design a full fledged video game though, this really bothers me. I have never downloaded an illegal copy of software, game, or "warez". For every copy of pirated software that is downloaded illegally a company is loosing money. If you download it, share it than buy it, you still contributed to the lose income by being in possesion of stolen goods.

Re:It Hurts

[jjohnson]

"For every copy of pirated software that is downloaded illegally a company is loosing money."

See, this is the faulty premise. As a web developer in the late 90s, working for a basement operation, almost all the software we used was warez, and if we couldn't get it, we wouldn't have bought it. If we couldn't be Photoshop gods for free, we would have been Paint Shop Pro gods for a lot less money. There's no one-to-one relationship between pirated software and lost sales.

Re:It Hurts

[MPauley73]

But how is my statement faulty? Did the Adobe make the money for the software you used? They didn't? Then it was lost...

Re:It Hurts

[DragonTHC]

they didn't lose money either, cause he would have used paint shop pro instead had photoshop not been "readily available"

Re:It Hurts

[jjohnson]

Your statement is faulty because it assumes that I would use the software regardless, and the only issue is whether or not I pay for it. That's not the case. I used Photoshop (and others) because they were freely available to me. If I had to pay for them, I would have purchased a cheaper alternative, or gone without, because at the time (and this was widespread), I couldn't afford Photoshop, Illustrator, etc.

In point of fact, most pirated software is in far wider use just because it's pirated--because there's so many people using it who wouldn't be able to use it if they had to pay. That's one thing you never see calculated in the costs of piracy--the benefit to companies like Adobe that the skills to use their software are widely spread.

Time? Protection?

[MMaestro]

This IS news worthy given the popularity of the game like you said, but it goes beyond that. You could compare this to having the location of a presidental debate given out weeks in advance and then suddenly having the place blown up by a terrorist a few days later. You KNOW an event is going to take place at X location on Y day, so you expect Z amount of protection in the area until after that event.

You'd THINK they would have serious security measures in place but in this case they didn't. Do it once (Doom 3 beta leak/Half-Life 2 source code hack), I hope you learned your lesson. Do it twice (Halo 2) or three times (GTA:San Andreas), wtf is going on? What next? A Quake 4 beta leak? Half-Life 2 version of Counter-Strike source code hacked? Final Fantasy XII English translation version leaked a week after the Japanese version is released?

Grand Theft Grand Theft Auto

[Mugros]

*obvious*

Irony Nazis

[Anonymous Coward]

This just illustrates the difference between the real sense of irony we all have and the bogus definition created by the literary establishment. Real irony is like real humor; it's impossible to define exactly (other than as whatever happens to provoke the appropriate response in humans). But the English profs. had to come up with something to grade people on, so they made up this stupid definition.

Grand Theft Softare

[Turor]

We are talking about a game that is centered around theft. Maybe there should be a mission about stealing mp3s and software written into the game. You could run from the RIAA instead of the Police or the FBI..

Re:Clarification - Thank you Mr AC

[danila]

But then if it already existed there would be no reason to propose it. :)

Rockstars next game GTS - USA!

[toxickiwi]

Grand Theft Software 1 - USA.

Scenario: You belong to a l33t group of pirates releasing 0-Day gamez, with the next big game due to be released in 30 days your crew is working hard to get a pre-release copy onto bittorrent before it hit's retail shelves, get extra points if your release is in English...

Console or PC?

[Rich Klein]

A game being pirated doesn't really seem newsworthy to me, but if you're going to report it, then how about telling us which version was pirated? X-Box? PC?

Re:Console or PC?

[vranash]

Among other things having a rip of a PS2 game doesn't help you unless you have a chipped PS2 and a dvd-rom burner, and maybe it's just me but both of those things cost more money than just shelling out for the game... now Pre-Release gaming might be fun on the other hand ;p

Spoilers!

[Anonymous Coward]

I have never condemmned piracy, but "a problem for gamers" - what kind of tripe is this?

One word, spoilers. Even when you are not actively seeking them, they are hard to avoid. There are people like the trolls here who would go out of their way to spoil the game for other people.

Plus with releases being pirated weeks/days in advance, it gives people a big head start and plenty of time to play through the whole game.

Fame is what the pirates want...

[Anonymous Coward]

So why give them even more incentive by posting in the media like this? This give the "0-day warez elite" even more incentive to do it, since now they also get fame in the MAINSTREAM press!

Do you know what you are talking about?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or are you just spreading FUD to justify this?

Helping someone else commit an illegal act?

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't agree so much with your rolex on the street example. If you download a game from someone, you aren't doing them a service. You are costing them some bandwidth and they aren't getting anything in return.
Take for example the Steam service goes down (and presumably you purchased HL2 over Steam) You have no way to get your game until Steam goes back online. How is it wrong for you to obtain a copy of a game you bought through a working distribution channel? I think you are granting companies too much power with regards to distribution rights.

Is this a side quest?

[macserv]

I mean, if you get points by beating up a hooker and taking back your money, the ultimate score must be stealing the game itself, and giving it away on the Internet!

Just one more reason to aim higher when creating video games... Karma is a bitch.

It did?

[glrotate]

The Constitution is a piece of parchment and ink. A right is simply a standard. Standards are a convenience. No one is bound to them in any sort of intrinsic way.

Rockstar might have done this...

[Anonymous Coward]

While I don't pirate stuff or cruse those sites, on one GTA related site's forum someone claimed that the pirates found dummy files on the PS2 DVD and cut them to make GTA:SA fit on a regular DVD. So while for now it seems the pirates have won, it might turn out that Rockstar did what you suggested.

Just don't give it to anyone else, okay?

[Uninvited Guest]

Under US copyright law, it's not illegal for you to download this game. It is illegal for you to upload or transfer it to someone else. That's when you're infringing on copyrights. Yes, the publisher will lose money. Yes, their lawyers will be hopping mad. As long as you don't transfer the game to someone else, there's no crime committed. So, don't do it.

(Now, let's see if I can break my personal best for up and down mod points in the same post.)

ATTN MODS: KNOWN TROLL

[Anonymous Coward]

mbonig is a known troll.. the racial undertones of his nickname should clue you in, he's been posting lots of garbage lately now he's trying to get karma.

just a heads up!

Re:Console or PC? PS2!

[Rich Klein]

To answer my own question, I did a little searching of warez sources, and it looks like it was the PS2 version that was pirated.

Alright!

[Anonymous Coward]

It couldn't have happened to a more deserving company.

(I'm not talking about the content of their games, just the company)

Re:Alright!

[Anonymous Coward]

And what did they do to you?

GNAA announces victory over mbonig

[Anonymous Coward]

GNAA freedom fighters attack mbonig into submission

Cakedrink KillsPics - Sinclair Broadcasting Correspondent

In the GNAA's continued effort to combat mindless idiocy, blogging, and bigoted oppression of gay nigger rights, GNAA member Penisbird has announced victory over mindless slashbot and blogger mbonig.

In true Hitlerian fashion, mbonig wanted to deny freedom speech to gay black men under the guise of his own nazi-esque values of censorship. "Gasgaynigs", mbonig was quoted as saying to a swooning crowd of neo-nazis ready for a golden shower of his drivel.

GNAA member Penisbird, who is considered of one of the most gifted and intelligent members, according to the GNAT or Gay Nigger Aptitude Test, excellently crafted his arguments against the nazi, as shown here, and was able to counter every point with concise and irrefutable facts. In the usual Slashdot hypocrisy, anyone who fights for the legitimate rights of the unpopular is considered a troll and this thread was no different.

The tragic defeat on Slashdot forced mbonig to retreat to his blog and admit that the GNAA's posts are free speech (unlike what he said earlier) while at the same time slandering Penisbird's impeccable character. Penisbird does not tolerate such insolence and proceeded to attack his wretched blog.

In the most skilled fashion, Penisbird proceeded to flood his blog as a form of legitimate protest. Like an relentless flood of nigger cocks, Mbonig (which is an intentional slur against niggers) tried to squelch the massive flood of protest posts by deleting hundreds of comments but could not keep up. His next step was to disable commenting for a couple of days. The very morning he restored comments and declared that by requiring logins, the attacks would cease. Wrong. Penisbird was on the attack and continued the assault.

After the morning offensive, mbonig quickly and embarrassingly disabled comments, declaring that "script kiddies" (the scripts in question consist of Microsoft Internet Explorer and the refresh button) do not deserve the same free speech rights he enjoys. However, Penisbird was victorious in that he caused mbonig to permanently disable comments. Penisbird vows to keep up the assault on his Slashdot posts and anywhere else he tries to oppress free speech rights online.

mbonig claims that he is not hiding who he is. Really? What is your last name? Where do you live? Oh, it seems that you are hiding who you are. Hypocrite.

About mbonig:

mbonig is a mindless Slashbot and blogger who constantly tries to oppress free speech online. He is a known neo-Nazi and supports the gassing of Gay Men of African Descent.

Mbonig is currently offering gmail invites, You may partake his invitation below:
https://gmail.google.com/gmail/a-b0ab39f1a8-51723

About GNAA:

GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) is the first organization which
gathers GAY NIGGERS from all over America and abroad for one common goal - being GAY NIGGERS.

Are you GAY ?
Are you a NIGGER ?
Are you a GAY NIGGER ?

If you answered "Yes" to all of the above questions, then GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) might be exactly what you've been looking for!
Join GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) today, and enjoy all the benefits of being a full-time GNAA member.
GNAA (GAY NIGGER ASSOCIATION OF AMERICA) is the

God, enough

[siskbc]

Yet another news article that continues the bombardment of the uninformed public trying to change the definition of words to fit their needs.

We get it. You post the same damned thing every time there's a story related to copyright violation. All of us have heard you by now. We either agree with you or don't, but hammering away monotonously on the topic isn't convincing anyone.

You can play semantic games all you want, but copyright violation is what it is - illegally taking something that doesn't belong to you. If you don't like the word thief, call it what you will, but it amounts to the same thing. Aside from that, what exactly is your point?

Euphemisms, in this case as is often so, are just a means of rationalization for *thieves* (there, I said it!) to justify their illegal behavior.

Re:God, enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww, did I fucking own you again? Are you pissy because I get modded up and you don't? Awww, poor asshole. STFU next time you fucking unemployed fuck.

Re:God, enough

[Anonymous Coward]

Awww, did I fucking own you again? Are you pissy because I get modded up and you don't? Awww, poor asshole. STFU next time you fucking unemployed fuck.

I'll have a Ph.D in two months and will make a LOT of money. I'm not unemployed, I'm in grad school. Quite frankly, if modding is how you make your self esteem, you are a pathetic piece of shit.

Doesn't anyone know the meaining of Ironic

[Anonymous Coward]

Ironically, it also happens to be a game titled after a larcenous act itself

That is coincidence not irony ....

Outmoded business model?

[kn0tw0rk]

Has anybody thought to ask wether this whole structure/process for making and releasing games is out of date?
With the interest of having advertising in games, maybe companies will sponsor a game to include their advertising and the have the game released for free?

dogma vs skepticism

[pyrrho]

that's what it all about man.

i'll put lines in my coloring book if I want... and take em out if I want.

In fact, i'll even do the opposite of what I want! that'll show em.

the title was serious though.

Obviously

[Anonymous Coward]

this is George W. Bush's fault.

Fair use, etc...

[TibbonZero]

First of all, while I'm not quite a professional in copyright, I have studied it pretty extensively in my business program at school, and basically every other class I have taken has dealt with the legal aspects of it. These classes were all taught by practicing lawyers and other professonals who have worked in the field.

As I said in another post, if people think the idea of IP is such bullshit, write to their congressmen and tell them to burn the copyright and all IP laws. If enough people do this, and everyone feels it's for the good of all, then i'm sure they will do it soon enough.

But also, most people have NO idea what the copyright law actually entails and have never really read into what Fair Use actually means and is for. Read some copyright case studies and figure it out. I can't believe how many people try to tell me that since they aren't publically performing or profiting from MP3s, or that they are 'learning' from them, that they are legal and covered under fair use.

Copyright can and have been made to the US Copyright law over the years, and even major rehauls. If you think that's what it needs, then be my guest, and get it changed!

And i'm still shocked at the fact that you'd like to see no more major movies or music made, simply because it shouldn't be invested in with your theory. And people aren't going to make Multi Million dollar movies that you all love so dearly (cough cough, Star Wars, LoTR, The Matrix, etc...) if they can't make some money off of them. Yes, people in the past made things without IP laws protecting them, but perhaps now the protection is needed and then it wasn't?

Re:reusing dead words.

[Anonymous Coward]

"Do you really think the general public wants a new word for copyright infringing when most will look at it as Hey Why Don't They Just Say Theft Or Piracy, Because Thats What It Is. Other than the morons that take 1984 to heart and want to shape public perception by forcing the use of word choice to promote their lifestyles:"

Giving new meaning to new words is all well and good except that piracy (of the maritime variety) is still quite prevalent in many parts of the world.

And quite frankly I believe it is extremely disrespectful to the victims of piracy (rape, murder, theft of property, kidnapping) to say that copyright infringement (reduction in potential income) is the same thing.

Hook me up

[ChuckSchwab]

So where can I find one of these sites giving out free GTA:SA?

Just kidding yo.

Thieves, thieves!

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny that all those games which are published these days are mainly made by people who come from a generation who copied everything back in the old commodore and atari home computer days - Yes, my dear holders of morality, even in bright daylight, on the schoolyard or at home juggling massive amounts of 3.5 inch floppy's - i was there, and i know, there are now working at rockstar.. :) Go catch 'em! :D

Keys vs. accelerators and business models

[tepples]

yet [a CD32 custom blitter] was emulated on the Amiga A1200/4000 in software.

Amiga A1200/4000 was not a CD32, just as my PC running ZSNES is not a Super NES. Granted, I had never followed Amiga history, but when did the Amiga A1200/4000 come out relative to the CD32? Did it make an impact on CD32 software sales the way Nintendo alleges that GBA emulators make an negative impact on GBA Game Pak sales? Or was CD32 commercially extinct by the time newer Amiga models came out?

There's quite a difference between a dongle which is purely something that is a key to unlock some software, compared with actual hardware that is required to use the software.

The point of the suggestion is to stop making keys and start making accelerators. Shift from a purely copyright business model to a copyright plus hardware patent plus fabrication business model, which makes it easier to sue copycats.

Haha, you suck, yank

[Anonymous Coward]

I wouldn't pay 500 euro for Photoshop either. I downloaded it a few months ago and have been using since. Hah! And no, since this isn't naziusa, nobody can "check" its legality.

The BEST bit, not the "worst" one.

[Anonymous Coward]

A leaked high-profile game, OS, utility, film screener, anything is always good news, no matter what platform it's for. Aroo-gah!