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Understanding 64-bit PowerPC architecture

An anonymous reader writes "Each of the leading microprocessor manufacturers has announced the availability of one or more 64-bit desktop processors, but differences exist in architectural design, fabrication, support, and intended use of each processor. This article looks at the critical issues in a few of IBM's 64-bit POWER designs, covering 32-bit compatibility, power management, processor bus design, and the manufacturing process."

116 comments

  1. DUPE!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's a dupe.

    1. Re:DUPE!!! by LurkerXXX · · Score: 1
      Slashdot, where you get all the editorial prowess you pay for.

      Unless your a sucker who subscribes. Then your getting rooked!

    2. Re:DUPE!!! by SilentChris · · Score: 1

      Not only is it a dupe, and it's at the same time on the front page, but it's within half a dozen articles on my screen. Is that a record? This must've been resubmitted as a joke to test the editors.

  2. Power != PowerPC by Computerguy5 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Power != PowerPC That is all.

    1. Re:Power != PowerPC by Arker · · Score: 4, Informative

      Power != PowerPC That is all.

      Hmm not exactly. Power > PowerPC. PPC is a subset of Power, a point which TFA does mention, and explain a bit.

      The PowerPC architecture that was born of this partnership is -- and always was -- a 64-bit architecture derived from the IBM POWER architecture.[...]
      Note that the performance of the PowerPC 970 family actually exceeds that of its award-winning parent, the high-end IBM POWER4 processor, in many areas. This is due to the fact that the circuit and process technology used for the POWER4 processor was designed to achieve levels of reliability necessary for the continuous availability server market -- levels that can be relaxed for the desktop and small-scale server market -- at the expense of transistor switching speed. Thus, the fabrication technology used for the PowerPC 970 was designed to eke out higher performance by trading away reliability; for these markets, the trade-off between reliability and performance is different.

      And yes, folks, it is a dupe. And a very recent one too. At least this time they got it in two different sections, first Apple, then Hardware. I'd have to say that Hardware is a better place for it, it's definately NOT just Apple that uses these chips.

      --
      =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
      Friends don't let friends enable ecmascript.
    2. Re:Power != PowerPC by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Power processors implement the PowerPC instruction set.

      What you are saying is like saying Pentium 4 != x86

      You can run OS X on POWER processors through Mac on Linux. And the PPC 970FX is a derivative of the POWER4 processor.

      Basically, the PPC 970 is a POWER 4 with a better SIMD unit.

    3. Re:Power != PowerPC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why need POWER or PowerPC? Both are overkill, especially when you can run OSX on a Centris

    4. Re:Power != PowerPC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      xbox2 > Power > PowerPC

    5. Re:Power != PowerPC by dgatwood · · Score: 3, Informative
      At a user-mode instruction level, the POWER3 and POWER4 CPUs implement the PowerPC ISA. At the supervisor level, this isn't true, and for the POWER and POWER2, it wasn't true at the user level, either. (POWER and POWER2 had additional registers, for one thing.)

      Technically, the POWER series implement an ISA that is user-space-instruction-compatible with PowerPC. Subtle difference, I know, but....

      --

      Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

    6. Re:Power != PowerPC by Billly+Gates · · Score: 1

      Not to mention AIX runs unmoddified on IBM's blade powerpc970 servers.

      If power were totally different, AIX would not run at all.

    7. Re:Power != PowerPC by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not to mention AIX runs unmoddified on IBM's blade powerpc970 servers.

      Dude, if AIX ran unmodified on 970, it means it was already ported to POWER4...

    8. Re:Power != PowerPC by Darksiderstlouisafte · · Score: 1

      No a PPC 970/fx is a POWER4 with one CPU core removed, SIMD unit add (at apples request), meny POWER instruction removed and fitted with PowerPC ISA that is all there is to it Darksider

    9. Re:Power != PowerPC by kompiluj · · Score: 1

      You are not 100% accurate. PowerPC is a subset of POWER + Multivec Engine (Single Instruction Multiple Data) by Motorola. This makes PowerPC better for non-server use.

      --
      You can defy gravity... for a short time
  3. Holy duplicate post batman! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Didn't I just read about this?!

  4. Watt power? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The heat is on

  5. What's going on? by Moby+Cock · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Isn't this the same story as five stories ago? Am I missing something?

    1. Re:What's going on? by vivek7006 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      No you are not missing anything. It is fucking CmdrTaco who is missing half his brain.

      Seriously almost every dupe story is invariably posted by CmdrTaco

    2. Re:What's going on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, Taco is. He doesn't read his own freaking website.

    3. Re:What's going on? by The+Bender · · Score: 5, Funny

      No, no, no. You fool, do you not pay attention? The other story was in the "Apple" section, and this one's in "Developers".

      Completely different.

    4. Re:What's going on? by Wapiti-eater · · Score: 1

      Bad Dupes

      And in light of what gets rejected, makes one wonder what this place is really all about anymore.

      --
      Senior NCO in the fight against entropy. I've seen things, man. Things no one should have to see.....
    5. Re:What's going on? by acaeti · · Score: 1

      Somebody must be having a case of the Mondays...

    6. Re:What's going on? by Minwee · · Score: 4, Funny

      Remember, Commander Taco has decreased the dupe ration from from 20 grams per day to 30 grams.

    7. Re:What's going on? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      makes one wonder what this place is really all about anymore.

      Well it can't be money, so I guess they're just out to piss off as many people as possible.

  6. First Dupe! by ggvaidya · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Right here. And why yes, the dupe is still on the front page, why do you ask?

    1. Re:First Dupe! by ggvaidya · · Score: 1

      Interesting look at Slashdot categorization. Apart from "Hardware", the two stories don't share a single category! This one is marked Programming (?!) and Hardware, while the other got Hardware, Technology, Technology (Apple) and IT.

  7. Ehh? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ``64 bit PowerPC architecture...desktop...POWER''

    but wait...I thought PowerPC and POWER are similar, but not identical, and that PowerPC was aimed at the desktop, whereas POWER is more for servers. Do I have it wrong?

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:Ehh? by temojen · · Score: 1

      Same architecture, different implementations.

    2. Re:Ehh? by mrdisco99 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yes.

      However, with this iteration, IBM took one of the cores from the dual-core POWER4 chip, repackaged it as the PPC970, and sold it to Apple as the G5. So PowerPC and POWER have re-merged... sort of. Freescale is still developing their own PowerPC chips which do not fall under the POWER umbrella.

      --

      +++
      NO CARRIER

    3. Re:Ehh? by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      and both stories are linked to the same article.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
    4. Re:Ehh? by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      However, with this iteration, IBM took one of the cores from the dual-core POWER4 chip, repackaged it as the PPC970, and sold it to Apple as the G5.

      Don't forget they also incorporated a simd (alti-vec).

      Freescale is still developing their own PowerPC chips which do not fall under the POWER umbrella.

      One of which is a dual core G4. Not sure if this qualifies as an irony. Maybe a bronzey.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  8. This post... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...takes a good look at duping.

  9. Wow by Algorithm+wrangler · · Score: 2, Funny

    That is the first time I've seen a dupe at the same time as the original is on the front page. Wow again.

    --
    -._''_.-
    1. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are new here, right?

    2. Re:Wow by pclminion · · Score: 2, Funny
      Really? I've seen that many times.

      Once, I even saw a TRUPE on the front page -- three fucking stories, all the same. Does anyone remember what that story was?

    3. Re:Wow by elzbal · · Score: 1

      I think they did this on April Fools day one year - one particular story went up 5 or 6 times...

    4. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Search under april 1. They did it on purpose.

      And fyi we called it tripe not trupe. ;)

    5. Re:Wow by notbob · · Score: 0

      If anyone can post that link off the top of their head, i"ll be impressed by their utter geekdom...

      at the same time we can all mourn that the sheer level of geekdom required will not be repeated as it necessitates that person never procreates to be that big of a nerd. Alas the culling of the herd of great nerds... thank god j/k ;)

    6. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if they're really so great, they'll just clone themselves and attempt global domination.

  10. This has to be.. by creep · · Score: 5, Funny

    The fastest dupe I've ever seen.

    1. Re:This has to be.. by _PimpDaddy7_ · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's the speed of 64-bit architecture at work, baby...

    2. Re:This has to be.. by Drakonian · · Score: 1

      No, there were back to back ones once. Not just during April 1st either. It was amazing. Truly a day that will live in infamy.

      --
      Random is the New Order.
  11. ever since i watched primer... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    this type of thing happens all the time. Same story posted again... probably just a symptom of my time shifting

  12. wow! by eshefer · · Score: 4, Funny

    a dupe posted by CmdrTaco to a story posted by Hemos.. It feels like 1998 again :-)

    1. Re:wow! by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Funny

      It feels like 1998 again :-)

      shut up!
      You might make Jon Katz come back.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:wow! by John+Pliskin · · Score: 0

      While I never did care much for Katz; what the hell ever happened to him anyway?

      $

    3. Re:wow! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative
      He went off to write about dogs. No, seriously.

      http://www.workingdogweb.com/Katz.htm

    4. Re:wow! by Lars+T. · · Score: 2, Funny

      Katz on dogs?

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

  13. I know by igzat · · Score: 0

    that AMD wasn't the first, but they're Athlon line is really top notch. I have two already, and I recommend it to everyone I know.

  14. Super duper by Sabu+mark · · Score: 1, Redundant

    Let's see if they go for the record and post this story a third time before the first one goes off the front page.

    --

    What Would Jesus Do
    (for a Klondike bar)?
    1. Re:Super duper by jon787 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yeah but that was on april fools' day and doesn't count. They were doing that on purpose.

      --
      X(7): A program for managing terminal windows. See also screen(1).
    2. Re:Super duper by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They were doing that on purpose.

      Suuure they were. On purpose, yeah, that's the ticket ;-)

  15. link still loadable by tomcio · · Score: 4, Funny

    i think they did that because the other link is still loadable
    unlike the watercooling article

  16. OK! by Bombcar · · Score: 5, Funny

    Admit it! Some of you send in stories that are on the front page just to see if they get duped, right?

    I'm on to you!

    1. Re:OK! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Ummm, yeah.. ..... It's called Q&A. Perhaps more of that should go on to keep the site in check?

    2. Re:OK! by daeley · · Score: 1

      Try submitting an "Ask Slashdot" with that question and see what happens.

      If it gets posted twice...well, let's just say this thread will be the ultimate power in the universe. ;)

      --
      I watched C-beams glitter in the dark near the Tannhauser gate.
  17. Nondiscrimination policy by JLavezzo · · Score: 3, Funny

    Slashdot's nondiscrimination policy prevents them from excluding dupes on the basis of topic of origin.

  18. Grammar Nazi! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    their means belonging to them.
    they're means "they are"
    there means not here.

  19. The explination of the difference by TyrranzzX · · Score: 3, Informative

    First, I'm talking a risc/cisc architecture like the x86.

    When you're talking about 64 addressing lines, your talking about addressing a fscksum of memory and devices. But, in addition, those lines allow for other possibilities: for example, sending 2 or 3 write commands with attached data and 2 32 bit addresses on the 64 bit bus simultaniously with an extra address decoder either on the chip or on the memory controller, or to some other device. Although, I don't know weither or not they've thrown that in as of yet. 64 bit numbers don't occur that often, afaik, but I'm not a coder so :P.

    The data bus advantage, however, is bigger. The x86 architecture has a command decoder, whereas you can send several commands in a single clock. With 32 more bytes, you get twice as many commands in a clock. Additionally, you can address more commands (but seriously, the first x86 had 38 commands, and that has increased by 10x in the past few years).

    Aside from that, you're throwing on more features into the processor. But, that's been here in the past 20 years of processor developement anyway. The article tends to be unclear on this. You're essentially expanding the bus to feed more buffers/pipelines.

    1. Re:The explination of the difference by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      First, I'm talking a risc/cisc architecture like the x86.
      Kind of like talking about a male/female person like Pat?
      64 bit numbers don't occur that often, afaik
      At least not until 2038 when all numbers will suddenly become 64-bit and the terrorists will cause AOL to crash.
      The x86 architecture has a command decoder, whereas you can send several commands in a single clock.
      I guess that's why VAX is so much cooler than Alpha. What does CISC mean again?
      The article tends to be unclear on this.
      Thanks for filling in the blanks.
    2. Re:The explination of the difference by TyrranzzX · · Score: 1

      The input is CISC, the execution is RISC. 4 or 5 commands may come in at any given point, the execution unit does only 1 command at a point, per pipeline, anyway. I forget which command, but one command for the 8086 required 83 clock cycles to complete.

      Although, I will admit, the newer processors are getting more and more complex, and the command sets are more cisc-ish in nature. I dunno, I guess it depends on the technology; if a logical 8 bit AND is your idea of a risc function, then by all means, the Itanium is a CISC processor with RISC functions. If, however, your idea of a RISC function is, say, shifting unicode text 100 places to the left and the inserting 100 unicode characters from a stack, then by all means, the Itanium is a RISC processor.

    3. Re:The explination of the difference by mikefe · · Score: 1

      "I forget which command, but one command for the 8086 required 83 clock cycles to complete."

      So what's changed? You can get that with a Pentium 4...

      --
      There: Something at a specific location.
      Their: Owned by someone.
      Please make sure your english compiles.
  20. Third Apple story today by Jucius+Maximus · · Score: 1

    I, for one, welcome our new 64-bit overlords!

  21. Daja vu? Or is it just me? by cyberwinds · · Score: 5, Funny

    I saw the same black cat walking by a moment ago.

    --
    Together, we are strong; Apart, we are stronger.
    1. Re:Daja vu? Or is it just me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's a glitch in The System. Go back to your regular life of serving as a human battery :-)

    2. Re:Daja vu? Or is it just me? by Stevyn · · Score: 1

      and I just saw someone misspell a subject line a few minutes ago, must be deja vu all over again.

  22. Is this page cached. by acomj · · Score: 1

    I did my afternoon slashdot break. I'm hitting "reloading" thinking, my company must be caching the pages now or something... No new stories. Whats going on.

    and on and on and on....

  23. Bios like OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There is no reason why a bios based OS cannot become viable in 64 bit registers. The maddening thing about the PC, which ever flavour, is that you still need to boot from a hard drive. It would be really great if the future of computing was to eliminate the need to store the OS on a drive. This would substantially reduce, 1. boot error (due to bit rot), 2. overall system speed. This in combination with hardware with built in brains, would change computing. This change would only be for the better. Security, speed, ease of use and compatability could all be enhanced. The monolith in Redmond would actually start to feel some heat from real competition.

    1. Re: Bios like OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      are you stupid?

      or are you longing for the days of the commodore 64 again....

    2. Re: Bios like OS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      "This would substantially reduce, 1. boot error (due to bit rot), 2. overall system speed."

      Should have read "This would substantially reduce 1. boot error (due to bit rot) 2. Increase overall system speed."

      The days of brain dead hardware would be numbered. The use of drivers for old windows styled junkware could still be possible by using a load drivers command at boot, just keep the drivers on the hard drive. Hard drives are best treated as disposable. There is no reason why the chip based OS could not be flashed, or removeable, or both. The memory chip cartel is the only reason why Microsoft is still in business. A radical change in thinking is due, if computers are to take full advantage of 64 bit registers.

  24. Gets more Apple fanboy visitors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Puff Apple stories get more clicks for slashdot.

    (Of course, it brings out the pro-apple moderators, too ... so there's a big downside)

    1. Re:Gets more Apple fanboy visitors by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      Which is why you chose to use the AC name, so they don't mod your ignorant ass down...

  25. Trupe? by douglips · · Score: 2, Funny

    The correct word is TRIPE.

    1. Re:Trupe? by russint · · Score: 1

      As in threesome?

      --
      ^^
    2. Re:Trupe? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1
      Yak! Dog food!

      Of course, tripe is cow stomach, right...?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  26. Mod the stories, not the comments by Wapiti-eater · · Score: 1

    What we realy need is a method to moderate the stories themselves - not just the commnets. Can ya see it now? "-5 Dupe"

    Some of the stories that do get accepted, it's stunning what gets front page exposure. While other stories that get rejected - you know, real news that nerds could use...

    It's time to extend the voice of the community

    --
    Senior NCO in the fight against entropy. I've seen things, man. Things no one should have to see.....
    1. Re:Mod the stories, not the comments by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then commander taco would lose all his karma in about 3 days and be labeled a troll. That would start a chain reaction ending the Internet as we know it.

  27. double exposure by Blitzenn · · Score: 5, Funny

    no. It's not a dupe, it's the 64 bit bus sending the same 32 bit information, doubled up along the bus. It's just looks like it's posted twice. It's much more efficient this way. Trust us!

    no. It's not a dupe, it's the 64 bit bus sending the same 32 bit information, doubled up along the bus. It's just looks like it's posted twice. It's much more efficient this way. Trust us!

    1. Re:double exposure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the transition from 32 to 64 bits, words don't get duped, they get sign-extended. Someone had to copy into another register (why not? There's zillions of them on PPC) and then multiply by 2 32 times, then add 0xffffffff and AND with the original register to get a dupe.

      After putting in that much work, might as well let them get away with it.

    2. Re:double exposure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude, why why do do you you think they have two two CPUs?

      Dude, why why do do you you think they have two two CPUs?

  28. It's NOT a dupe ! by raulfragoso · · Score: 1

    You guys sux on mathematics: if it was a dupe, it would be an article talking about 128-bit stuff, you fools !

  29. Trupe? How about Tripe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, that fits much better.

    1. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by pclminion · · Score: 1
      Except that tripe is already a word with an entirely different meaning.

      Plus, "tripe" doesn't even have the right sound either. The appropriate word would be "trip," which is also already taken. And we can't use Tripp, due to the reference to the Clinton fiasco.

      Thus, "trupe" is the most appropriate word in this case, by analogy with "dupe." Yes, I actually pondered this before posting.

      These are the important questions of our lives.

    2. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Trip" sounds the best IMO.

    3. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by AndroSyn · · Score: 1

      I think the entirely different meaning was intentional.

    4. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Umm, the joke is that "tripe" is already a word with an entirely appropriate meaning.

    5. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by BoomerSooner · · Score: 1

      Tripe is delicious. Fried with lots of A-1 Steak Sauce.

      (Kidding, I cannot believe I've even tried the stuff!)

    6. Re:Trupe? How about Tripe? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except that tripe is already a word with an entirely different meaning.


      No! Really?

  30. dupe detector? by zygote · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In the abscence of institutional memory or /. editors sitting in the same room :-) , could Slashcode be tweaked to scan for URLs that are identical in stories and flag them somehow?

    Some Perl script or such that looks at the post about to hit the front page, then looks at a say the last three or four posts that were on the front page. If it finds an identical or closely identical link, it then sends an email of the body of the two posts to the editor.

    I don't think it would get the server's load up too much.

    (much sarcasm, minus 1, bad dog.)

    --
    the future is here, it is just not evenly distributed - w. gibson
    1. Re:dupe detector? by BJH · · Score: 1

      Let me put it this way:

      The idea of a dupe detector is proposed every time Taco reposts a story, but it hasn't been implemented yet. If it hasn't happened in 6+ years, it's never going to happen.

  31. Jesus hopping cabbage. by b1scuit · · Score: 3, Funny
    Jesus Hopping Cabbage. Does anyone else see the irony concerning twenty nearly identical posts saying "this is a dupe! What has slashdot become!"?

    Anyone?

    1. Re:Jesus hopping cabbage. by awehttam · · Score: 1

      Who cares!

  32. That's "trip" by Kourino · · Score: 1

    That would be a trip. Remember, dupe is short for duplicate. The correct abbreviation for three stories would be "trip", which is short for "triplicate" (which is a real word, yes).

    The real question is why I'm debating the correct abbreviations for Slashdot editorial errors on Slashdot ...

    1. Re:That's "trip" by tenton · · Score: 1

      which is short for "triplicate" (which is a real word, yes).

      People who don't know triplicate isn't a real word hasn't filled out enough forms. :D

  33. Timothy, breaking records by theolein · · Score: 1

    Timothy, you're really the only editor on Slashdot who manages such an amazing amount of dupes. And you're also the only one that manges to post dupes of articles that are still on the front page.

    I heard the Guiness Book of Records called. :D

    1. Re:Timothy, breaking records by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

      It wasn't Timmy this time. It was Taco.

      --
      It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  34. At least you admit it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    give ya credit for that.

    1. Re:At least you admit it. by Warlock7 · · Score: 1

      Just like the Linux fanboys that have modding capability.

  35. Must be Michael and Timothy's day off. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Thank Allah.

  36. CmdrTaco Was Here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...who else would mod this down to -1?

  37. dupe by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, they are trying to slashdot IBM, and the first one didn't do it, so up went a second. Unfortunately IBM's webserver is a z-server. I expect we will see a few hundred more dupes until they give up.

  38. 1) . . . by Ohreally_factor · · Score: 1

    If it gets posted twice...well, let's just say this thread will be the ultimate power in the universe.

    Threads are mammals?

    --
    It's not offtopic, dumbass. It's orthogonal.
  39. Let's have some consistancy! :) by F'Nok · · Score: 1

    That would be a trip. Remember, dupe is short for duplicate. The correct abbreviation for three stories would be "trip", which is short for "triplicate"

    Yes, but if you use the same transformation...

    duplicate -> dupe
    triplicate -> tripe

    I'd argue that tripe is actually well fitting in that pure sense. That fact that it has pun value is an added bonus! :)

    1. Re:Let's have some consistancy! :) by pclminion · · Score: 1
      Right, but in the case of "tripe," adding the final 'e' actually changes the pronunciation. I actually gave thought to this before deciding to go with "trupe," which at least has the benefit of rhyming with "dupe."

      I'm very, very sad. I know. As are we all, in this thread :-)

    2. Re:Let's have some consistancy! :) by F'Nok · · Score: 1

      Ahhh, if only we had a phonetic language...

      Then this decision would be so much simpler ;)

  40. why 64 bit can be slower by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pointers are twice the size, take up more room in L1/L2/L3 cache, less room for other things, more cache misses. Likewise, ram and swap.