Slashdot Mirror
India Outsourcers Find Back Door in Canada
securitas writes "Metro International newspapers Toronto edition reports that more Indian companies are opening back doors into the United States by setting up shop in Canada. The issue of outsourcing, offshoring and nearshoring has become a hot issue, with the 2004 presidential election less than a week away. Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers."
I guess that makes me an evildoer, eh? Ah well, at least Guantanamo Bay will be warmer than Winnipeg this winter.
Trolling is a art,
Blame Canada?
See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
I think near-shore or off-shore makes no difference as they're still outsourcing, ie taking away jobs which could have been given to locals.
Bush said druing a debate that he will let Mexicans to come to US to work legally, and gradually obtain residency. If this happens, the Canadian-Indian issue is small in comparison.
Maybe the ideal "screening" is based on the percentage of employees' residency status, so if over 50% of a Canadian company is from developing countries, it's no deal.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
He could of introduced plenty of bills supporting his current election platform as a senator, why didn't he? What makes you think he'll do it now if elected president? Just asking.
If Dell outsources their tech support to Canada, at least I'll be able to understand the guy as opposed to the current situation....
As anyone knows who has hit someone in India the accents can be very hard to understand, Canadian accents (if any) are very close to americain ones so you might be able to get the help you need!
Everyone that disagrees with me is a paid shill
I think it's because there was a fad for awhile for directors of TV and movies to film in Canada, because it was cheaper, and for a little while a lot of places in Southern California were feeling it. But then prices started going up in the areas in Canada where filming was being done because there was awareness that there were lots of rich people there all of a sudden, and the locals acted accordingly. It'll balance itself out. At least, in my youthful optimism, I'm going to hope it will.
Did they follow proper disclosure procedures and report the backdoor to the Canadian government before submitting it to Slashdot?
Why doesn't anyone ever talk about all the jobs being insourced? The real "Benedict Arnold" companies are those that move their headquarters overseas -- in the form of a rented office in Bermuda -- to avoid paying US taxes, not US-based companies with manufacturing centers in other countries. Those are the real tax cheats.
Bungo!
What tax loophole is this exactly? I know that the companies avoid certain expenses just due to lower wages offshore, but taxes too?
If there is a loophole, closing it would mean more revenues for the government (plus for them) and/or less outsources (plus for us)
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
Good thing there's only Call Centres in Canada, then. (Spelling loophole?)
Does it make you happy you're so strange?
I knew from the post that someone would immediately whine that it mentioned Kerry's stance.. and immediately wanted to post something about it...
Slashdot is not a TV or radio network. There is no reason for it to give "equal time" or avoid showing bias. It's "news for nerds" - it doesn't claim to be nonpartisan (or partisan).
The internet is not the same as other "media outlets", and Slashdot has no "responsibility" to be any certain way.
http://www.babysmasher.com
http://www.openingbands.com
Also please remember that the US has spent the last twenty five years literally ramming free trade down the world's collective throat (admittedly, an effort made on behalf of the financial elite, not workers).
Be sure you show George where we are on the map. It could be embarassing seeing him saying how great Canada's burritos and Corona are after he conquers Mexico.
Trolling is a art,
I really fail to see any real solution to this issue being presented. Tax loopholes won't erase the fact that there are qualified workers in a cheaper business environments. All the tax loophole becomes is a Red Herring for the real issue. Let's come up with serious and real solutions to this. A. India has very qualified workers B. They are very will to work and will work for a lower wage C. The end result usually comes out to be similiar to what would be done in the U.S. I'm not sure what could be done, but I know that Tax Loopholes have nothing to do with the real problem of outsourcing. --- Get Firefox!
Normally I'm pretty pro-republican, but I don't see particular story as biased. Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that essentailly encourages outsourcing. Bush says (see debate #3 transcript) we should get retrained and go to community college.
/. and it's moderators are left leaning can't be denied. This just isn't a good example.
It's a fact that outsourcing is a hot issue (for some). It's a fact Kerry has made that statement a number of times that he'll fix it. Will he? Can he? What is he going to fix exactly? I doubt it, but it's a pursuasive (and noteable) statement.
Now the fact that
First off I'm voting for Kerry, but the idea that new legislation is going curb the tax advantages of outsourcing is ludicrous. So lets say Kerry does pass such a bill, what will happen? Large companies will simple open up offshore subsiaries to skirt the law, similiar to what Haliburton did under the leadership of Dick Cheney, by having a Caymen islands phantom corporation in order to business with nations like Iran.
from an old episode of This Hour Has 22 Minutes
An Apology to Americans
By Reporter 'Anthony St. George' (Performed by Colin Mochrie)
Hello. I'm Anthony St. George on location here in Washington.
On behalf of Canadians everywhere I'd like to offer an apology to the United States of America. We haven't been getting along very well recently and for that, I am truly sorry. I'm sorry we called George Bush a moron. He is a moron, but it wasn't nice of us to point it out. If it's any consolation, the fact that he's a moron shouldn't reflect poorly on the people of America. After all, it's not like you actually elected him.
I'm sorry about our softwood lumber. Just because we have more trees than you, doesn't give us the right to sell you lumber that's cheaper and better than your own. It would be like if, well, say you had ten times the television audeince we did and you flood our market with great shows, cheaper than we could produce. I know you'd never do that.
I'm sorry we beat you in Olympic hockey. In our defence I guess our excuse would be that our team was much, much, much, much better than yours. As word of apology, please accept all of our NHL teams which, one by one, are going out of business and moving to your fine country.
I'm sorry about our waffling on Iraq. I mean, when you're going up against a crazed dictator, you want to have your friends by your side. I realize it took more than two years before you guys pitched in against Hitler, but that was different. Everyone knew he had weapons.
I'm sorry we burnt down your White House during the War of 1812. I see you've rebuilt it! It's very nice.
I'm sorry for Alan Thicke, Shania Twain, Celine Dion, Loverboy, that song from Seriff that ends with a really high-pitched long note. Your beer. I know we had nothing to do with your beer, but we feel your pain.
And finally on behalf of all Canadians, I'm sorry that we're constantly apologizing for things in a passive-aggressive way which is really a thinly veiled criticism. I sincerely hope that you're not upset over this. Because we've seen what you do to countries you get upset with.
For 22 minutes, I'm Anthony St. George, and I'm sorry.
It won't last. As someone else pointed out. Hollywood used Canada for a while until the locals wised up and prices went up.
.50 for lunch. Once India starts cleaning up, the rates will rise and they'll outsource again.
The difference is that Canada has a significantly better quality of life than the average Indian. So the Indian company can pay an Indian call center employee 8,000 a year, he'd still have to pay a Canadian call centre employee 30,000 or 40,000 a year. This is vs a call center employee here making 40,000 to 50,000 a year. (All WAG's, recent tech support position advertised on dice.com was for 55 an hour).
When India starts fining the companies dumping waste into the Ganges, the companies will pass on the costs to the citizens which will then require raises in order to be able to afford the goods these companies sell. When the wages get too high, they'll outsource to China. Then China will start fining the mining companies (chinese dieing in unsafe mines because it's either work the mine or starve) or waste management folks (chinese exposed to toxic waste from computer salvaging) and the cycle starts again.
I think my salary (currently non-existant) is globally balanced. When you consider all aspects, I was getting paid the same amount, adjusted for living conditions, as the guy in India who got $10,000 and pays
Shit better not happen!
However, soon the manufacturing costs in Japan rose and they found they could serve their customer better and make their cars cheaper if they opened auto plants closer to the customer.
The result is that majority of Toyotas sold in the U.S. today are built right here by workers who get paid lower than before.
Same thing might happen in the IT industry.
Doubt it...
It cost time and $$$ to ship raw materials to Japan and it cost more time and $$$ to ship the finished product back. Thus it makes perfect sense to put the plant near the customers.
With IT, your finished product is not as tangible. The cost to ship support or software from a boiler room to North America is the cost of the phone/data lines in between.
You're allowed to smack Texans upside the head. They usually deserve it.
If I hadn't been through all of this election I probably wouldn't have believed my eyes. This report from last February from people in Wisconson finding Caller ID signatures from Canada for the Kerry Election Call Center? Makes you wonder if there will be political loopholes in any laws similar to those for the National No Call list.
Today is a gift. Save the receipt.
Why does not someone just come up with a real-time accent and artifact removal filter. For Indians you will need to spread out the syllables while maintaining the pitch. For Canadians you will have to remove the trailing "eh" from sentences.
I would suppose you could optimize the filter per individual and maybe one of the options on the phone menu is that you can select the dialect you are comfortable with. For example you can select:
+ West Texas drawl (replace all "you" with a you'all so "you do have the power turned on eh?" becomes "ya'all do have the power the turn").
+ New York/Jerseyan insulting snarl (remove all r's from the stream and add a little color. For example "Yo you idiot, you do have the powe tuned on doncha."
Remarks like this cause me to think perhaps people who make 6 or 7 figures per year forget that going to school isn't particularly cheap, and that doesn't even consider the dynamics and costs of supporting yourself while taking classes full time just so that one can complete their education in a timely manner. Student loans help matters somewhat, but one has to remember that they are, in the end, just loans... and one has to pay it all back.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
Comment removed based on user account deletion
Slashdot is not a TV or radio network. There is no reason for it to give "equal time" or avoid showing bias. It's "news for nerds" - it doesn't claim to be nonpartisan (or partisan).
Except that it used to be a place to read about really cool stuff, really neat stuff, things on topic for the online community, not stuffed with politicking. And maybe you don't mind Taco's obvious bias, but it gives me agita, and I don't need it. I want my old Slashdot back! Maybe things will be back (or closer) to normal after the election.
the supposedly liberal crowd, that would often complain about the rich countries not giving enough aid to the poor ones, quickly rushes to highly illiberal views depriving the poor of ways to build honest wealth through honest work.
In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
The article only explains half the story. This is actually worse, and I had been expecting it for somtimes.
This is how Canada is a backdoor to the US:
You'd think that because Canadians are cheaper (slightly) that they are using Canadians to do Americans jobs.
Having lived there, I can say that nope, this isn't how it works at all, its worse than that!
Here is what they are doing: (basically, they are moving the Indians to Canada, to outsource them on US projects, because it is easier to get an Indian to Canada than it is to the US. So Canadians aren't even getting the jobs either, because even Canadians are too expensive!)
Canada has a very lax foreigner friendly and immigration policy. Especially if companies go waving around money about 'investing in Canada', the Canadian govt. will buy into it, because they (think) that this will create Canadian jobs rather than destroy them.
Satyam opens his company (I wonder how many of his 120 employees in company in Canada are not Indian). Then bring in Indians/foreigners to do the work less than Canadians will.. (but the office wouldn't have been opened anyways if you couldnt do this, so the Cdn govt doesnt mind that much really).
Then outsource the Indians in Canada, to US projects. Voila! Timezone and connectivity problems all go away because the cheap Indians are now in Canada and not India!
Then it gets even better! Unlike the USA, Canada has a very quick and easy naturalization process (takes only a few years), and then the Indians become 'Canadian' and get Canadian passports.
Then, because of the NAFTA agreement, those Indians can come to America, and take Americans jobs as that is now a T1 Free trade visa, and not an H1B. T1s have no limit, anyone who wants one who is Canadian with a college education in IT can get one and move to the US.
T1s hadn't been a problem since Canadian and American standard of living were almost the same anyways, but with this scam, the whole safeguard goes out the window.
So no one in North America really benefits from this, not the Americans, nor Canadian IT people either..its a purely Indian play.
Its a great plan really, surprised they didn't think of it earlier. Hard to fix it though, if Canada stops the practice, then they can just use Mexico the same way I suppose.
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I don't think you can make ANY conclusion at all about their political leanings as a whole.
If you've been here long enough and have read enough comments and seen enough moderations, I think that you can draw conclusions. I would say that about 50% of Slashdotters lean leftward, 25% lean rightward, and 25% are in the middle. I'm technically in the middle but tend to lean rightward on the issues that are debated the most often and the most furiously.
Because there is no wrong, there is no right
And I sleep very well at night
No shame, no solution, no remorse, no retribution
Just people selling t-shirts
Just opportunity to participate in the pathetic little circus
and winning, winning, winning -- Don Henley, "The Garden of Allah"
maybe we are just expecting to be over paid. Why would Indians in canada get paid less than Canadians? They both have to pay the same for their stuff. Just because you arn't willing to work that cheap doesn't mean someone else shouldn't be able to.
Personaly, I like having cheap tech support workers because even if they don't know much more, they are still better than talking to a computer. And, they can pass me up to somone who doesn't need a script if the script won't solve my problem.
Not to mention the the fact that the money these companies are saving will be invested on other things which creates more jobs.
It was me, I did it, I moved your cheese
Everything you've said so far is good except for the
Maybe in 3rd world nations were slave labour is fine
comment. Software Developers in India (including me) are paid 350 times the prevailing minimum wage in India. They aren't slaving away at all. That's the REAL reason outsourcing is working. Because the people in the 3rd-world companies are NOT being exploited. They're paid astronomical sums by their country's standard, but dirt cheap by American standards, so it works out just fine. This article may help. Eventually our salaries will rise (they've been rising about 6% every year for the past 5 years) and eventually the work will move elsewhere - or it might even move back to USA after y'all make a painful adjustment and decide to work for $30,000 instead of $40,000 At some point, it will no longer be worth the communication, distance and time lag problems to hire 50 Indian workers to do the work of 12 American developers. Yes the work might then be outsourced to the Philipines or China or some place but this is unlikely and I'll tell you why: The reason India is a chosen destination is population. There is just such a LARGE pool of english-speaking univeristy graduates relative to other developing nations. So philipines might take some of the work, but never as much as was shipped to India. China is unlikely, because its standard of living is already higher than India's. This means that Chinese workers are already more expensive than Indian ones (plus in terms of english-speaking people and IT China has some ways to go - by the time China catches up with India in this particular demographic its standard of living also be higher thus meaning that the price differentials between Chinese and American workers ain't too big so no outsourcing). In order for this to truly be a race to the bottom as all of you Slashdot panickers assume you would need another country of India/China's size in terms of population, with a standard of living lower than them and with a large percentage of young, university graduates that can speak the language of the western world. There is no other country. So this is what the future holds - American wages fall a little, Indian wages rise a LOT. It becomes financially unviable to outsource to India so some work comes BACK to the US, some work gets shipped to Sudan or the Philipines or Croatia or whatever and some other work stays in India. And now that India has higher wages, they start buying more developed world products, trade increases, your economy picks up again blah blah. But yes, if you're a software engineer, it'll be hard to find a job for the next 5 years or so - this all hinges on how fast Indian wages rise, and how fast American wages fall. If Americans are willing to work for less, then less jobs will be outsourced. I'm not saying you SHOULD be willing to work for less, I'm just stating the facts.
My Favourite Meme
I'd like to point out that the story as posted edited out the attribution.
Editors: Please don't remove quotation marks where they are necessary because that effectively results in plagiarism. The words in quotes are not mine. They belong to the reporter.
Also, the reference to the interview with the Chairman of Satyam - an Indian outsourcer that has set up shop in Toronto - was removed. Knowing that Slashdotters often don't read the source articles, I included that detail as an incentive for people to read what the leader of a large outsourcing company has to say about this politicized business practice.
Original post follows:
Wusthof knives are OK but I have given up on henckels. If you really want great knives I would go for the japanese brands myself. Global (forged only) or masahiro are fantastic.
If you want German knives the messermeisters are a great value and are as good as wusthofs IMHO.
If you want the best bang for the buck I'd go with forschner or Tramontina Professional Series. Tramontina are made in Brazil and are an exceptional value for being forged.
If I was buying something for my mother I'd by the tramontina, for myself I am saving up for a nenox.
evil is as evil does
..what you say is correct, but there are other aspects to consider. A US company competes in a global marketplace, they're competing against products made all over the world. If for example an Indian company makes a piece of software similar to your entirely "made in the USA" product, their costs will have been much lower, they'll be able to sell it for less and nobody will buy your software - you're completely screwed. Outsourcing allows you to lower your costs, which isn't just trying managements evil attempt to fire you. Outsourcing also allows other advantages, you can exist as a small startup company in the US with a core R&D team and a great idea. When you've designed the product you can suddenly have a team of 100 in Bangalore coding like banshees for 6 months to make it a reality - and when you've got your product you can wave them goodbye. Without outsourcing you'd either be trapped as a small company, have taken years to code the same yourself - and miss your window of opportunity, have been bankrupted taking on US contractors or have taken on employees and either kept them on afterwards (bankruptcy) or laid them off. Because of outsourcing you're now a small company, with a great product you're selling around the world, making a tonne of money and paying a lot of tax into the US system. Point I was trying to make is that outsourcing isn't right or wrong, good or bad, it's another tool and if you refuse to accept it exists or use it if available you'll be screwed.
wow you've totally missed my point haven't you.
He's likely (understandably) worried that by the time everything's evened-out he'll be dead and gone. Not earning enough to drive a Porsche is one thing; not being able to afford a $250,000 mortgage or $300/month healthcare is another.
Exactly I think if the cost of living was on par then a lot of developers wouldn't be overly bothered by a pay cut or working for less.
Ok, first of all, it is not this phantom tax loophole that makes offshoring attractive - and it's not as if this tax "loophole" even exists. It is not a loophole at all. What makes it advantageous for taxes is that the US cannot collect income tax from people who don't live and work in the US. Duh! That's not a loophole, it's just the law. We will never be able to close this loophole because we cannot collect income tax from foreign citizens working in a foreign country.
Moving on. The factor that really makes offshoring attractive is that, for a call center as an example, the labor and utility costs are so much less. An American might demand $12/hr to work at a call center, which is expensive for someone who just reads a script over the phone all day. On top of that, the company has to pay for real-estate (which is ridiculous in this country right now), insurance (which is also ridiculous thanks to frivolous lawsuits), payroll taxes (FICA, Medicare) which are high because of government fat, high utilities due to high cost of energy in general, and a host of other factors that makes low-income jobs difficult to maintain in the US.
What makes these things cheaper in a place like India? Well, first of all, a dollar in America goes a long way in India because of the exchange rate and the differentiated standard of living. Something that costs $10 to buy here costs $1 in India, including labor. Second, India itself has a hugely growing economy and infrastructure, and for American businesses to participate in building that growing nation, they have to have a presence there anyway. India has a very nationalist government and they won't allow foreign companies to simply walk in and take money out of the country. India needs call centers for India, too, and those call centers by Indian law must be located in India. Also, Indian law also requires things that are sold in India to have some % of Indian-manufactured content. So, for infrastructure companies to sell their goods, they have to have a presence there as well.
India's nationalist policies are working well for them because they are a growing nation. There is so much stuff to be done and sold there that it is worthwhile for companies to locate jobs there. Nationalist policies often work for rapidly growing countries because it keeps money in the country. However, once that nation is mature, those companies and the jobs they brought will leave just as quickly as they came. This is why nationalism does not work in a world where it is easy to move resources around, or in a matured nation that is in a state of continuation rather than development.
This is also why nationalist policies will not solve our outsourcing "problem." There really is no solution because we cannot control what is going on in other nations. The best we can do is do what we've always done - persevere. I've been fortunate enough to keep my job even though I can definitely see my job going to India in the next 24-36 months. I will have to get another one, which is why I am training for it now and not later.
This really is a sink or swim situation, and the choice lies with each individual. One cannot be dead-set on a specific job at a minimum rate of compensation. If you are flexible, willing to learn a new profession, and willing to relocate, you will be able to find employment. The jobs are out there. The unemployment rate has been falling steadily since the post-9/11 peak, and is lower now than it was for the first 4 years of Clinton's presidency. Historically, the unemployment rate has fallen in between 5 and 7%, which occasional excursions outside that range both above and below. Right now it is 5.4%.
What we're seeing is a shift away from technology jobs because that period of growth is over. The explosion of the Internet is what gave us the first period of prosperity, and now we're in a period of continuation. Time to find something else to do.
Well, it wouldn't be the first invasion that had "gone south" on him.
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
> It could be embarassing seeing him saying how great Canada's
> burritos and Corona are after he conquers Mexico.
Would that be more or less embarrassing than when Dan Quayle was heading for Latin America and mentioned that he needed to brush up on his Latin?
Do daemons dream of electric sleep()?
What are you smoking? Yes, Canada is friendlier and the way to get a Work Permit is a lot easier than doing this in the US, but "easier" doesn't mean they just roll over.
I am currently sitting here for almost 2 months waiting for my new Work Permit and the last update I got was that HRDC (who has to approve the job) is still fiddeling around with the paperwork.
Mind you, I am going to move from Toronto to Edmonton, a place where "talent" if you want to call it that, is a bit more scarce, but the point is that it costs companies money and a lot of time to hire foreigners, and I am not even Indian, I have a German passport.
The company has to proof for ANY employee they are hiring that is not landed or a citizen of Canada that they couldn't find a person who was. This takes (depending on the market) 4 - 8 weeks and a LOT of paperwork (Who else did they try to hire, how did they advertise the job etc. etc.).
So even if they have "indian" guys sitting there, those are most likely already landed immigrants or Canadian Citizens, especially Toronto has a large Indian / South East Asian population.
Not likely, the company would have to proof that every person they bring over from India HAS to be brought into the country because they couldn't find anyone local, and believe me HRDC in Toronto is nasty to deal with, I know, I did a couple of times.
What is more likely to happen is that they have some people here in Toronto who then delegate the work to the Indian Headoffice but that in and on itself isn't that bad in Canada, because the Canadian Subsidiary gets paid on the contract and pays it's taxes still in Canada.
Also, people on a Work Permit have to be paid "comparable wages", so you cannot simply hire an indian for 10% of what the Canadian would make AND unlike the US H1B the Work Permit belongs to ME not the Company, if I want to leave I can, I just have to find another company who wants to do the HRDC portion again, and the old company would never even know.
It takes around 2 1/2 years to get your landed papers, you have to apply in your country of Origin or (if you are already in Canada on a temporary permit) in Buffalo, after you have this paper in your hand it takes another 3 years before you can apply for Citizenship.
The Landed Status, btw, will cost you ~5K CAN, that includes language proficency tests, medical exams and a host of other things. 5K is a lot of dough for a dude in India.
The T1 ONLY applies to Canadian Citizens, by the time the guy has this he has already been in Canada for at least 5 years, chances are pretty good that by then he has settled and the last thing on his mind is moving to the states.
Geez, tone down your fear a bit, will ya?
If you want to e-mail me, use my PGP Key.
1) Its taxation system was designed to destroy its tax base,
2) There was this nasty plague,
3) The Empire had no system for picking Emperors beyond "the guy who wins the Civil War after the last Emperor died". Note though, that they had a working system for a while, and abandoned it when one of the Emperors decided to stop using it, and let his son inherit.
4) There were these barbarians living beyond the borders who wanted the good stuff like the Romans had.
Add all those things together, and the WESTERN Empire fell. The Eastern Empire lasted another thousand years, finally falling to this Turkish army that wanted the good stuff like the Romans had.
"I do not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it"
It is a sink or swim situation. However, when the ship suddenly plunges, it's difficult to avoid being sucked in. Your wages, your job, are dependant not just on your abilities and efforts, bu the state of the entire (in this case) American economy. Being a good mechanical engineer on the Titanic probably didn't help so much when the ship hit the iceberg.
As many people have said on Slashdot, and on more academic boards, the entire point of outsourcing is to lower labor costs. That's it. Nothing else. Nothing more. A capitalist system exists primarily to generate a return to those who own the capital. Cutting labor costs increases the capitalists returns. No, I'm not speaking from any Marxist point of view here. Read Adam Smith.
India's policies work do to the low pay of their workers. Nothing more. Not a policy choice, but a cheap labor force due to a massive and desparate population. So, do you really think American workers can compete against about two billion Indian and Chinese workers? The only way we can do that is to have our own wages plunge to a level that would be difficult for most American's to imagine.
As wages fall for workers facing international competition, wages fall in other fields. Think of this: if the automobile factory closes the next town over, business probably won't be that good. When we combine outsourcing with a taxation system that encourages the concentration of wealth, we can foresee serious structural problems in the American economy. I've tried to think of a simple way to explain this - maybe the greatest evidence is the fact that American real wages have been flat for thirty years, despite incredible increases in productivity.
Jobs are out there - but job quality, measured in wages and in hours, is falling. If your job is outsourced, its unlikely - and against economic theory - that you'll be able to find an equivalent job in the same field and roughly the same locale for the same wage. And as the Democrat's have been happily pointing out, the new jobs being created pay far lower than the ones lost.
Other employers understand outsourcing, and they'll be happy to give you a lower offer. Of course, your bank doesn't care about outsourcing and your mortgage stays the same. So does your health insurance, children's tuition, etc. So your in serious trouble.
I have a question for all of our fun Libertarian economists on /. If immigration to the US averages about 200,000 per month, and the Administration claims that 1.7 million jobs were created in the last four years, how many new jobs were available for the native population? Guys, unemployment statistics are easily manipulated. I'd recommend you visit the Bureau of Labor Statistics site and, well, read between the lines. Alos, please consider that unemployment statistics only count those who are receiving unemployment benefits. Once you've exhausted your six months, you're no longer unemployed, you become a "discouraged worker." Off the roles, out of thought. Same thing occurs if you take a low wage job - say go from being a chip designer to a chif fryer. Still counts as a job.
I have to say this: The government of the United States exists to protect the welfare of the American people, not to protect the welfare of the wealthiest American's bank accounts. And the two are not one and the same.
/* Dang, I can't type that well. */
Nor any finincial responsibilities other than yourself. I spent two years between "real jobs" and had to work two or three minumum wage jobs just to make ends meet and help keep my child and my wife fed and in shelter. It's not laziness- it's a staggering economy. Right now I'm back to work in IT, doing what I love (software design). But it was much harder to find work now than it was the last time I was out of work (right out of college, 5 years ago). The main problem I had looking for IT work is that I was over-qualified (I'm working aan entry level job right now. I had to convince my current employers that yes, I wanted to do this even though it was lower than my level of experience because finding a job as a lead programmer was taking way too long.) Bigger and better things my ass. It's only bigger and better if it's still ours to achieve. If the jobs are over seas than there is nothing bigger or better.
click me
So this is what the future holds - American wages fall a little, Indian wages rise a LOT.
This would be fine if it was true for all workers (although people would call it deflation and it would probably be bad for other reasons). The problem is that there are still many industries -- and therefore goods and services -- which are priced as high as ever.
Healthcare is an ideal example. If most of the people in the US could afford to pay their medical bills, everything would be fine. But as you send more jobs overseas and replace them with wages that are minimal, now many people can't afford health care.
Housing is another one. Same situation, a job for an unskilled worker 80 years ago let that worker afford a modest house. Now that worker is on government assistance, living in subsidized housing.
The IT industry might be just a small chunk of the US economy, but outsourcing, which has been going on for years, is raising the standard of living for some US citizens while lowering it for many others. Taken to the extreme, all jobs should be outsourced, and then no one would be left to buy any goods or services, and no one would be left to innovate either (because innovation comes from the ground up). That isn't good for this country in the long run.
First, I agree that eventually things will even out. And, hopefully, interconnected economies and cultures will do wonders for peace. However, the cost of outsourcing to some americans is greater than you might think and it should be no surprise many are upset. $40K per year isn't a fortune over here and if I only made $30K, I'd qualify for multiple types of government assistance.
What does it cost per month for rent? What is the monthly food budget for a family of 5?
Obviously, in the US rent (or mortgage) will vary depending on where a person lives, but for most middle class people, it'll be between $500 to $1500 per month. Food will be at least $500/month for a family. Tack on at least another $500 in other expenses such as utilities and we're at a $1500 to $2500 per month, or $18K to $30K per year without even considering clothing or medical costs. At a minimum, tack on another $5K/yr. We're now at $23K/yr to $35K/yr. The poverty line for a family of 5 in the US is $22K/yr, so I'm not talking about an extremely rich lifestyle here. We haven't even touched discretionary income or the cost of a car.
This is why many americans are so upset. Its not that they're tired of being extremely rich, its that there's a lot of people who are already having a hard time getting by and losing even $10K per year makes a big difference. While most americans might be richer than most people in India, most are no where as rich as they appear on TV.
Would that be more or less embarrassing than when Dan Quayle was heading for Latin America and mentioned that he needed to brush up on his Latin?
Amusingly, even had he actually said it, it wouldn't actually be that bad of an idea. When we lived in Tucson (not far from the Mexican border), my father was actually the "go-to" guy for children who only spoke spainish when none of the doctors who actually spoke spainish were around.
He doesn't speak spainish, but he'd had years of Latin; however, he discovered that if you speak latin with a Mexican accent, even most kids can guess what you're trying to say, and by treating their spainish as badly accented Latin, he could fumble through what they were trying to say.
I can verify from my own experience that the same applies to Italian ^_^
Also French (as verified by a girl who transferred to my high school which had French classes from a school which had Latin classes), Portuguese, and Romanian. Learning Latin makes it very easy to learn the other five Romance (Latin-based) languages.
It can also improve one's English, since English has many words that derive from Latin.
Hmmm. Don't like after-the-purchase EULAs the UCITA enforces interfering with your ability to examine code? Worried about the Patriot act leading you to be investigated because of your opinions or curiosity? (note: happened to friend of mine). Concerned with Microsoft OS security flaws in eVoting? Dislike the broken U.S. patent system? Don't like the DMCA forbidding what you can and cannot release? Want a good anti-spam law, or at least the existing laws to be enforced (or not?) Here's a clue: these are all LAWS. LAWS are approved by various Representatives we colloquilly call POLITICIANS. Selecting the most acceptable Politicians is called Politics.
Maybe it was true 20 years ago that Nerd-type news could safely ignore politics. But not today. Why? Because we nerds collectively create a lot of money, and where money is involved, there will be a lot of businessmen pushing and shoving, power plays, and even less savory things that require our attention, unless we want to be steamrolled.
Oh, but you are not really upset about Politics per se. It's really that Slashdot allows people of any opinion to post. In this very discussion, I've read several Libertarian viewpoints, some Democratic, some Republican, a number of foreigners, and one that might be considered too socialist to be Green. This obviously disturbs you. Like most US conservatives these days, you are obviously more comfortable with the "Shut up Shut up Shut up Cut His Mike" style of GOP cable news in the U.S., so anything that doesn't censor opinions you disagree with must be, perforce, "Bias". You want validation, dammit!
In truth, you're right: Taco is "biased". He's given a substantial media platform to third party candidates far disproportionate to their ability to ever get them implemented. He seems positively enamored with Libertarians. That's ok. I'm not whining. I like having my views challenged. Enjoying intellectual discourse is part of being a "Nerd".
Candidate John Kerry has said he will close the tax loophole that makes it advantageous to outsource call centers.
So Kerry is going to close that pesky tax loophole that allows indian and other workers to get paid a fraction of what US workers make?
The reason outsourcing is profitable is because workers are willing to work for a lower wage outside the U.S. That's not a tax loophole.
Reason, free market capitalism, and individualism