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UK Government Reports Linux is 'Viable'

CProgrammer98 writes "The Beeb is reporting that The UK Office of Government Commerce has published their final results following trials on the use of OSS and especially Linux and they conclude that Linux is a viable option for government use. From their summary: 'The report shows that Open Source software is rapidly maturing, offers significant potential benefits to government and should be actively considered alongside proprietary alternatives. It concludes that decisions should be based on a holistic assessment of future needs, taking into account total cost of ownership, with proper consideration of both proprietary and open source solutions.'"

177 comments

  1. Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    From: "Steve Ballmer"
    To: Anonymous Coward
    Subject: Customer Focus: Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX
    Date: Wed, 27 Oct 2004 15:44:29 -0700

    In the thousands of meetings that Microsoft employees have with
    customers around the world every day, many of the same questions consistently
    surface: Does an open source platform really provide a long-term cost
    advantage compared with Windows? Which platform offers the most secure
    computing environment? Given the growing concern among customers about
    intellectual property indemnification, what's the best way to minimize
    risk? In moving from an expensive UNIX platform, what's the best
    alternative in terms of migration?

    Customers want factual information to help them make the best decisions
    about these issues. About a year ago, a senior Microsoft team led by
    General Manager Martin Taylor was created to figure out how we could do a
    better job helping customers evaluate our products against alternatives
    such as Linux/open source and proprietary UNIX. This team has worked
    with a number of top analyst firms that have generated independent,
    third-party reports on cost of acquisition, total cost of ownership,
    security and indemnification. Some of the studies were commissioned by
    Microsoft, while others were initiated and funded by the analysts. In each
    case, the research methodology, findings and conclusions were the sole
    domain of the analyst firms. This was essential: we wanted truly
    independent, factual information.

    At the same time, our worldwide sales organization is going even deeper
    with customers to understand their needs and create a feedback loop
    with our product development teams that enables us to deliver integrated
    solutions that support real-world customer scenarios, and
    comprehensively address issues such as manageability, ease of use and reliability.

    I'm writing to you and other business decision makers and IT
    professionals today to share some of the data around these key issues - and to
    provide examples of customers who opted to go with the Windows platform
    rather than Linux or UNIX, and how that's playing out for them in the
    real world. Much more information on this is at
    www.microsoft.com/getthefacts.

    This email is one in an occasional series of emails from Microsoft
    executives about technology and public-policy issues important to computer
    users, our industry, and anyone who cares about the future of high
    technology. If you would like to receive these emails in the future, please
    go to

    http://register.microsoft.com/subscription/subscri beMe.asp?lcid=1033&id=155
    to subscribe.

    TOTAL COST OF OWNERSHIP AND ACQUISITION COSTS

    In the past few years, you haven't been able to open a computing
    magazine or visit a technology Web site without running into an article about
    Linux and open source. Not surprising: who doesn't like the idea of a
    "free" operating system that just about anyone can tinker with?

    But as the Yankee Group commented in an independent, non-sponsored
    global study of 1,000 IT administrators and executives, Linux, UNIX and
    Windows TCO Comparison, things aren't always as they seem: "All of the
    major Linux vendors and distributors (including Hewlett-Packard, IBM,
    Novell [SUSE and Ximian] and Red Hat) have begun charging hefty premiums
    for must-have items such as technical service and support, product
    warranties and licensing indemnification."

    Yankee's study concluded that, in large enterprises, a significant
    Linux deployment or total switch from Windows to Linux would be three to
    four times more expensive - and take three times as long to deploy - as
    an upgrade from one version of Windows to a newer release. And nine out
    of 10 enterprise customers said that such a change wouldn't provide any
    tangible busine

    1. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by Gherald · · Score: 4, Funny
    2. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by Veamon · · Score: 0

      let the microsoft bashing, raise linux on our shoulders like 'Rudy' begin....

      --

      Slashdot News: As serious as a busted rubber
    3. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by hype7 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It may come as a surprise to Steve Ballmer, but Microsoft's stranglehold on the operating system market is doomed - and if it folds to Linux or Sun or Apple or any other organisation that supports open standards in its operating system, there will no longer be any reason for organisations to support Microsoft. With any of their products.

      Hear that noise, Mr Ballmer? That is the sound of in-evit-a-bility.

      -- james

    4. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by CDLI · · Score: 3, Interesting

      What I find interesting is how many of the problems and costs he's talkiing about seem like they would disappear if Linux were to ever really get off the ground.

    5. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by ajs318 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ever heard of a circular argument, or a self-fulfilling prophecy?

      Any line of questioning that begins with "Why don't men wear skirts?" is going to come around to an answer which can best be paraphrased as "Because men don't wear skirts". Similarly any line of questioning that starts "Why are recreational drugs illegal?" will be answered with "Because recreational drugs are illegal" although probably not in those exact words.

      It's the same with Linux. Ask "Why do so few people use Linux?" and the answer will boil down to "Because hardly anybody uses Linux".

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    6. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What you are showing is the permanence of status quo. Men could wear skirts, but it just isn't done. That's just the way things are done. The same thing is with the Windows/Linux issue. You have the problem with interoperability. Everything is written for and runs under windows, so everyone runs windows, so everything gets written for and then runs under windows.

      While Microsoft pretty much has a monopoly on mainstream consumer operating systems, this will probably always be true.

    7. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by sloanster · · Score: 1

      Hear that noise, Mr Ballmer? That is the sound of in-evit-a-bility.

      Be careful what you say! I know Neo, and Steve Ballmer is no Neo!

    8. Re:Comparing Windows with Linux and UNIX by lanc · · Score: 0

      Right. But never forget the thing, that humans learn slowly. Reeaallllyyy slloooooooowwwwwwww... not to mention some big mulitnational firms who have already craved the axiom OS=win* in stone. I know it, I work at an ISP with 500 coworkers and guess which kind of OSlike-thingie can you find in _every_ area of operation?
      Now way, of course not exclusively, thx god. But its still to be found everywhere. And the internal infrastructure (mail,userauth,desktops) is based on what? right guesses. MS products. I dont get it why. Only can say: its historically grown so.

      --
      "First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they attack you, then you win." -- Mahatma Gandhi
  2. Now when will the US government do this? by Silverlancer · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Has the US government already stated that Linux is "viable," or is their vision still blocked by a large round pig known as Microsoft?

    1. Re:Now when will the US government do this? by The-Bus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Which always made me wonder, does the USDOJ use Linux at all after hounding Microsoft for so long? Netcraft indicates Solaris for their web server, so that could be good news... But what are the clerks running? I wouldn't be surprised if they were still running terminals.

      Anyone know?

      --

      Small potatoes make the steak look bigger.

    2. Re:Now when will the US government do this? by kc0re · · Score: 5, Informative

      The US Government has stated that Linux is a viable and valuable resource, and although it must be secure (duh), it is encouraged that more OS's besides Microsoft's should be used. Diversity is important. Linux is authorized for use throughout the government, and actually is used alot more than you would think.

    3. Re:Now when will the US government do this? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The NOAA uses linux exclusively for their websites. Check them out. The NSA is very involved with linux, maybe you've heard of SELinux? The DOD sponsored OpenBSD, $2 million wasn't it?, for awhile until de Raadt gave some of that money to English developers.
      Write your congressman and tell him or her to support open-source, lower the federal budget, and cut your taxes.

    4. Re:Now when will the US government do this? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      Terminals? I can't speak to the USDOJ but the overwhelming quantity of government computers (as far as what the end users see) are Wintel PCs, many of them sold by IBM well past the point where IBM's PCs were actually relevant (which is to say, during the microchannel 386 days) and they use 3270 emulation (or similar) to talk to a mainframe application.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  3. Lowest bidder, anyone? by drlake · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If the Brit government is anything like the US government, dealing with open source software may cause a cognitive short-circuit when they try to figure out how to handle bids on something that's essentially free...

    1. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by iBod · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The OS may be free but complete solutions aren't.
      Organizations (govt. or private) invite bids for Solutions, not operating systems. An OS is only a small part of the solution.

      The current UK govt. has a terrible track record on It projects. The go back time and time again to the same suppliers that failed them and overran their budget to alarming proportions (notable names here include: EDS, C(r)AP Gemini, Arthur Anderson - the usual suspects...).

      The cost of a desktop/small-server OS is almost incidental to the cost of a major IT project.

    2. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by TykeClone · · Score: 1
      The current UK govt. has a terrible track record on It projects. The go back time and time again to the same suppliers that failed them and overran their budget to alarming proportions (notable names here include: EDS, C(r)AP Gemini, Arthur Anderson - the usual suspects...).

      The US government isn't much better. How many times has the IRS attempted to modernize? I think that they're still using punch card machines yet.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
    3. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by RocketRainbow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...how to handle bids on something that's essentially free..

      I guess that's why there's now such a market for packaging linux and asking for a small fee for the pretty picture or even a nice cardboard box. SuSE, Redhat, etc are trying to be "enterprise" versions of linux where you get the same stuff but someone actually bothers to put in a bid and gets maybe $50-$100 for their trouble when it hits the buyer that this is a great idea.

      --
      *#*#*#*#*#******* I love peanut butter sandwiches!
    4. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by goatan · · Score: 1
      Well it is NOT free. When SCO finally wins in court, they will have the privilege to pay $799.00(USD) per install/per year.

      If that is the case miscarigaes of justice in the US have no impact on UK law. Secondly the UK gov can step in and administrate the copyright including licensing rights/price.

      --
      Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.

    5. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Insightful? Mods on crack if you ask me!

      As another poster hinted, an OS is but a small part of the whole cost. Be it MS or Linux or whatever.

      The parent is way overrated, I whish there was a "get a clue" mod :)

      (no offense meant, relax and laugh!)

    6. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by RocketRainbow · · Score: 1

      ...an OS is but a small part of the whole cost.

      It's true. And this is how we get bids for the implementation of something that's "essentially free". Somebody has to install the linux on the computers, and assure whoever that it's all set up right. Or, someone may need to offer an entire "solution" with linux on X number of Y type computers with Z software.

      Nevertheless, a beaurocrat is a peculiar animal. They will just as easily read a bid where software costs nothing and say "no, we can't go with these shonky dealers", see if they don't!

      --
      *#*#*#*#*#******* I love peanut butter sandwiches!
    7. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...how to handle bids on something that's essentially free...

      This is the Linux revolutions biggest draw back in making headway into many environments. No kickbacks, no lobster dinners or pre-paid trips.

    8. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The UK's IT failures are not surprising. Executives from the companies that have failed them in the past sit on key committees that determine government IT policy. It's called corruption.

      The UK satirical magazine Private Eye has followed this story for a number of years.

    9. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by iBod · · Score: 1

      >>The UK satirical magazine Private Eye has followed this story for a number of years.

      Yes. It's odd how nobody in the mainstream press seems to take any notice of this.

      I mean, it's not your typical 'tinfoil hat' conspiracy stuff - it's quite open and blatent.

      They're so arrogant they think nobody that matters cares.

      Unfortunately they seem to be entirely correct in that assumption at the moment.

    10. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by iBod · · Score: 1

      >>This is the Linux revolutions biggest draw back in making headway into many environments. No kickbacks, no lobster dinners or pre-paid trips.

      I see where you're going with this but surely there must be an opportunity for businesses to make an honest crust from this (Linux, OSS whatever) whithout jumping on the junket waggon - otherwise where does it all go?

      Businesses need to be able to rely on mutually-beneficial, cooperative relationships (i.e. trading).

      If some guy kindly offers to do something I really depend on 'for free', I don't really feel comfortable with that.

      It means I'm reliant on his continued good will affability and whims. Do you see what I mean?

    11. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by nharmon · · Score: 1

      In SuSE's case, the "enterprise" version contains some proprietary Novell directory services and lack a lot of "standard" Linux software.

    12. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1
      I see where you're going with this but surely there must be an opportunity for businesses to make an honest crust from this (Linux, OSS whatever) whithout jumping on the junket waggon

      It's called providing a service - vendors/consultants/employees get paid to add to or change the software to satisfy the business needs of the customer. Once they have been paid to provide this service, however, they _don't_ get paid over and over every time their customer uses the software. In other words, they get paid for doing work, and if they want to keep getting paid, they do MORE work (unlike the situation for selling IP).

    13. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by iBod · · Score: 1

      Yes I understood that already.

      What's your point?

    14. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 1

      The way you made your statement made it sound like you didn't think there was a way to make money off non-proprietary software.

    15. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by soliptic · · Score: 1
      If the Brit government is anything like the US government

      Well....... it's not.

      That one was easily answered! ;)

    16. Re:Lowest bidder, anyone? by Bush+Pig · · Score: 1

      I think the parent post was comparing corruption and inefficiency rather than the actual way the governments work (or fail to), in which case there probably isn't a great deal of difference.

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
  4. The Queen by danormsby · · Score: 4, Funny
    So will the Queen moves back to Linux now?

    Her son is a Solaris person.

    --
    Omnis amans amens
    1. Re:The Queen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Yes, I'm sure Charlie took time out from his chin-augmentation therapy to personally say 'Netcraft confirms it... BSD is dying'

    2. Re:The Queen by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      First the dodo died, then Dodi died, then Di died, then Dando died... Now is a bad time to be Dido!

  5. Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by cheezemonkhai · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not like the British Government listens to anybody anyway (Well except for Dubayew), so why will they listen to this.

    I am personally sick of windows worms and viri. Even will a fully updates system with the latest AV definitions you still have the hastle of sorting it out when the AV finds one that it has pulled down.

    My Point - Love to see it happen, but not holding my breath

    1. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by mirko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree : in the few cases where I can see my employer using Linux, it'll only be in order to deploy SuSe or RedHat distroes because they are officially supporting Oracle so it's not that they are endorsing the Open movement but rather that they are just deploying gratis certified software onto cheap hardware.

      --
      Trolling using another account since 2005.
    2. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >>I am personally sick of windows worms and viri. Even will a fully updates system with the latest AV definitions you still have the hastle of sorting it out when the AV finds one that it has pulled down.

      Uh? Ok. So what you're really saying that you're too fucking stupid/lazy to secure your own computer?

      We all know that Windows is not as secure out of the box as we would like, but it is easily possible to lock it down if you know how.

      The internet abounds with free advice and tools to help you do this BTW. Patch, install good AV and firewall, ditch IE and Outlook (if you can) and you're almost there.

      So, bone up on your tech, secure your Windows box(es) and quit whining that you're personally 'sick of' this and that.

      If it's a personal issue, just use Linux or BSD and then STFU and give us all a break.

    3. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Jaruzel · · Score: 0

      The plural of Virus, is Viruses.

      --
      Together, We Can Make Slashdot Better. I Do NOT Mod ACs. - Check Me Out
    4. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Nighttime · · Score: 1

      I am personally sick of windows worms and viri.

      You are sick of windows worms and men? What is the plural of 'virus'?

      --
      I've got a fever and the only prescription is more COBOL.
    5. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by goatan · · Score: 4, Interesting
      It's not like the British Government listens to anybody anyway (Well except for Dubayew), so why will they listen to this.

      Your Getting UK Government confused with Tony Blair he would have no impact on whether Linux is used by Gov departments, It is a business decision for the departments themselves this study is a guide for them not TB.

      My own department has recently swapped contractors from Accenture to IBM mainly because some of our managers are interested in taking a closer look at Linux, this is before this report came out.

      --
      Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.

    6. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by cheezemonkhai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Erm no, these are family boxes.

      They run mozilla (1.73) and FireFox (1.0PR) They have spybot removing spyware and the AV definitions & windows Update & manually applied hotfixes are all up to date.

      You will find that when mozilla mail pulls down the latest mail with an attachment of netsky then craps itself cause it can't 'truncate the mailbox' due to the AV software restricting access to said mail box that is not about securing the PC.

      I personally run Windows and Gentoo on the desktop & Free BSD on any important servers.

      I did infact admin windows servers and can secure them correctly. So if your going to get all stupid with your posts, please at least provide a username so I know who is going.

    7. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by CountBrass · · Score: 2, Informative

      You sir, are an idiot. You do know that don't you?

      The government actually cares very little about what OS is used. At most a couple of mid-grade civil servants might care but usually it's down to the suppliers.

      Here's a random mix of technologies I've used whilst working on big government projects:: NT, Solaris, (mumble, mumble boxes I can't talk about but definately do not run anything from MS) and we used: log4j, struts (ok so that's a mistake), eclipse, Apache (web server and xml signature library) in development.

      --
      Bad analogies are like waxing a monkey with a rainbow.
    8. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by cheezemonkhai · · Score: 1

      Well Yeah, I am sick of men.

      If the world was 99% female... well most of us men would probably be a lot happier :)

    9. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do het men seem to like lesbians and not like gay men? Shouldn't you see lesbians as competing with you for the same scarce resource, and therefore deserving of annihilation, whereas gay men are after a different resource and therefore are not a threat?

      And while I'm on the subject, why do women seem to think they are more likely to be raped by a man than a lesbian?

    10. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by WoodenRobot · · Score: 0, Offtopic
      Why do het men seem to like lesbians and not like gay men?

      Being heterosexual, they're not going to like looking at gay men, are they? To a heterosexual man, 1 woman is good, 2 women is better.

      And while I'm on the subject, why do women seem to think they are more likely to be raped by a man than a lesbian?

      Maybe because a) there are more men that lesbians, and b) a man has a penis, which is pretty much required for raping someone.

      --
      ---
      "I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing and it was everything that I thought it could be."
    11. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      The victims of lesbian rape may disagree with you.

      And I may be offtopic.

    12. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by DunbarTheInept · · Score: 1


      a man has a penis, which is pretty much required for raping someone

      Uhm, not to get too disgusting here with the details, but, that's blatantly false. There are other methods of sex, and rape is any sort of sex against your will - regardless of whether it's traditional missionary position or something else.

      --

      Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.

    13. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Zonnald · · Score: 1

      So the fact is that people are *trying* to send you worms &/or viruses and your sick of that.

      Interesting to note that since my subscription to Nortons AV lapsed (as I have chosen another product) the number of "infected" emails has increased.

      Maybe infecting Windows machines occurs to prop up the AV industry?

    14. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by Zonnald · · Score: 1

      How long before we hear :

      Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM/Linux

    15. Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :( by goatan · · Score: 1
      How long before we hear :

      Nobody ever got fired for choosing IBM/Linux

      It is true no has been fired for Chosing IBM/Linux, there have been more than there fair share of suicides and vicouse beatings but that has statistical clustering written all over it. Seriousley though i can't see anyone sensible basing a purchasing decision on wheteher others have been fired for buying the product.

      --
      Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.

  6. Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by philbert26 · · Score: 4, Funny
    1. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by mikael · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't worry - we'll sell them off to our allies, like we did with our submarines.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    2. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by zaktheduck · · Score: 2, Funny

      This submarine has committed an illegal operation and will now fire all its Trident nuclear missiles.

      Scary.

      --
      Life is like an analogy
    3. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by david.given · · Score: 4, Funny
      Don't worry - we'll sell them off to our allies, like we did with our submarines.

      British arms dealing --- making the world a safer place through incompetence!

    4. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      You see, a submarine is much like a beautiful women..

    5. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Swiss Tony

      I've come to the conclusion that he must have been the one who sold those submarines to the Canadians.

    6. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank the gods we don't sell arms to the US armed forces; incompetent soldiers using bone-headed hardware would probably result in the destruction of the world.

    7. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, it has been reported that the Canadian sailors left the hatch open in heavy seas. Salt water, being a good conductor of electricity, seems to have been a direct cause of the fire aboard the sub.

      I'd have thought that on day 1 of "Submarine School", the first lesson would be entitled "Why you should never leave the hatch open in heavy seas" (or 'Water outside - good, water inside - bad').

      I'm not saying that the subs were brand new (they weren't) or even defect-free (probably not), but honestly, blaming the quality of the sub when water came pooring through an open hatch is like buying a used car and then blaming the dealership when you drive it into a wall. And, like a used car, Canada had the chance to inspect what they were buying before they bought.

      When you talk of incompetence, point the finger in the right direction. In this case, the Canadian navy.

    8. Re:Cool, please inform the Royal Navy by temojen · · Score: 1
      Salt water, being a good conductor of electricity, seems to have been a direct cause of the fire aboard the sub.

      Salt water stiking high-voltage cables with non-waterproof insulation at the lowest point in the hull seems to have been the cause.

      I'd have thought that on day 1 of "Submarine School", the first lesson would be entitled "Why you should never leave the hatch open in heavy seas"

      I'd have thought that "water gets inside submarines, and flows downhill" would have been one of the first lessons of submarine design school

      And, like a used car, Canada had the chance to inspect what they were buying before they bought.

      Actually, the sub in question was in parts when it was bought on condition that it be refurbished and made seaworthy. It has proven to have not been made seaworthy.

  7. Cool ! by polyp2000 · · Score: 1

    I hope that this comes into fruition- Hopefully that will mean our tax payers money can be channeled into other things instead of micosoft fees.

    --
    Electronic Music Made Using Linux http://soundcloud.com/polyp
    1. Re:Cool ! by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Really... You got to be joking. You definitely forgot the nasoanal intercourse performed by The BLiar before all elections since coming to power. He does it in a well known building by the railway near Reading. I bet that he will do it this time as well.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
  8. Not exactly tricky! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How much of our tax payers money was needed to come to this astonishing conclusion?

    1. Re:Not exactly tricky! by julesh · · Score: 1

      Well, they've had a public consultation that's lasted about a year, so probably it has occupied all of one medium-senior civil servant's time for this period, that'd probably be about GBP 60,000. Then there would be that civil servant's secretary, who probably earns something like GBP 30,000. On top of this, there would have been reports commissioned from research agencies, probably another GBP 100,000 there. Publicity, arranging a web server for the consultation documents, general administrative cost probably come somewhere in the region of another GBP 30,000. So, I'd guess somewhere in the region of a quarter of a million pounds.

      Just top of the head figures, of course, I have no information on how much money the government actually is wasteing.

    2. Re:Not exactly tricky! by goatan · · Score: 1
      Mid level Civil servants Wage is more like £30,000. It is very rare for any Civil servant to have secretary anymore but if they did there wage would be about £15,000.

      Just top of the head figures, of course, I have no information on how much money the government actually is wasteing

      Sounds like you pulled them from your arse, by the way does a sys Admin working for £16,000 sound like a waste of money bare in mind most sys admin Jobs pay £30,000.

      you haven't got a clue about gov costs. The maintenance budget of the RPA's Payment system comes to £750,000 that includes the department's wages, most civil servants earn 2/3rd's the wage they would in the private sector.

      --
      Saying Apple is better than MS is like saying Botulism is better than rabies.

  9. How about just picking the best for the job? by Neil+Watson · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why are we always breaking software into open and proprietary? Why can't people just create a prioritized list of requirements and then use it to pick the software that fits the best for them?

    1. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I represented any foreign country, friend or foe, I would think that "best for the job" includes concerns of security. I would note that Microsoft works hand-in-hand with the U.S. Department of Defense and the intelligence agencies; I would note that the U.S. has a long history (and ongoing programs) in political, military and business espionage against friend and foe alike; I would recognize that many of the security problems already discovered in Microsoft products could be considered "back doors" that circumvent privacy and secrecy; I would recall the firmly established dishonest behavior of Microsoft executives; and I would recognize that if I use Microsoft products, I will not know if my security is purposely being breached. So I would choose open source so that my people could explore every nook and cranny of it to be sure it is secure.

    2. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by julesh · · Score: 1

      That's actually what this is about. The government is publishing the results of their consultation on OSS. They're essentially telling all government departments: when you're buying a new IT system, make sure you consider an open source alternative. It's OK if that's not what's right, but you have to at least consider it. And, if you have two systems that can do the job equally well for similar prices, and one is open source, favour the open source one.

    3. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by bkhl · · Score: 1

      It looks like that's what the report is telling us to do, actually. It's just saying that there's no reason to exclude free software from consideration.

    4. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Gopal.V · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Hmmm.. what does mine include (if I was a non-US government).

      • Being a government I want to be socially responsible and spend taxes as locally as possible (or outsource your OS needs to Redmond ?.)
      • I don't want FBI to put backdoors in my apps
      • So I need a good security audit to be done by my technical people
      • I don't want to depend on a single country/company for all my software
      • So I need to pick and choose who can modify it
      • And change it after I've bought the software

      So what all fits this cloth is only Free Software. The same amount paid to Alan Cox's hardware might be a LOT better for Britain than paying that to Microsoft's (or SCO Unixware's) learjet budget.

      Hear all those who clamour about outsourcing, why don't you see that Britain can do local spending of taxes this way . The only viable OS right now for that task is GNU/Linux.

    5. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Cyno · · Score: 1

      Because the proprietary software might meet more of those requirements this year, but widespread adoption of the open solution might meet more of those requirements next year and cost you less and keep you clear of vendor lockin.

      Its important to understand the simple concept that time is always moving forward. It never stops to rest. If we ignore that fact and that open software has been improving at a rate some say is faster than proprietary we might spend extra money on proprietary hardware and software to meet a solution today that could have been met for half the cost with open commodity goods.

      Now if you ignore this and choose the proprietary solution anyway, then your competition (other governments/corps, etc.) choose the open solution and spend less money than you do you will be held accountable to your voting public, share holders, pocket book. And they might be able to outcompete you by using their money wisely, doing it the right way the first time, etc. Perhaps its easier to pick the best tool for the job today, but if it is no longer the best tool for the job tomorrow and you've spent a lot of cash on it what are you going to do then, ask for more money?

      If governments had chosen Linux 4 years ago they wouldn't have had to pay for upgrades to their OSs. How much would that alone have saved them? What about per seat licensing on server software? What about... I could go on but I think you get the point.

    6. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by file-exists-p · · Score: 2, Informative

      I am not sure to get your point. They put "being open-source" at the top of their priority list, that's all.

    7. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Spoing · · Score: 2, Interesting
      1. Why are we always breaking software into open and proprietary? Why can't people just create a prioritized list of requirements and then use it to pick the software that fits the best for them?

      The point of these government and corporate reviews isn't to make an artificial split open vs. proprietary, it's to legitimize the *open source* software for use at all.

      I've had many conversations where people were against open source for reasons that aren't true.

      Short story, I was told by one executive that 'Since the source is available, it's less secure...we'll use use our current solution'. When I pointed out that our primary web server including our flagship product were stable and secure she agreed. She went white when I started to list off the open source that the made up the core of that product. The conversion was quick, though, and they began to appreciate open source...for the flagship product only.

      The chance to have that type of conversation is limited. These reports, though, can pass along those revelations without looking like a fanatic.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
    8. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by slapout · · Score: 1

      But then how are you to suppose to play solitaire?

      --
      Coder's Stone: The programming language quick ref for iPad
    9. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by kwoff · · Score: 1
      I don't want FBI to put backdoors in my apps
      You hear that often, but you know there are other ways to put in backdoors than to put them in source code.
    10. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by ignavus · · Score: 1

      Easy. I require freedom.

      --
      I am anarch of all I survey.
    11. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Zonnald · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the Executive was made aware of the choice of Open source for the core of the flagship product.

      If they had been would they have sanctioned it?

    12. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1

      KPatience is much better than MS Solitaire.

      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    13. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by mrchaotica · · Score: 1
      The only viable OS right now for that task is GNU/Linux.
      <cough>BSD</cough>
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    14. Re:How about just picking the best for the job? by Spoing · · Score: 1
      1. I wonder if the Executive was made aware of the choice of Open source for the core of the flagship product.

        If they had been would they have sanctioned it?

      This exec didn't have any say over it at the time; the decision was made before and they weren't responsible.

      *IF* they were told 'we need this tool', they would say OK.

      *IF* they were told 'we need this open source tool', they would be nervious.

      *IF* they were told 'this is a great open source tool' they would kill it on the spot or roll thier eyes back and ignore the suggestion.

      I always look for a commercially supported product and put it in the bid as a commercial product -- propriatory or open. I no longer mention software as being OSS though I do try and find a cheap commercial version of it; free (no $) is worthless, expensive is good, while moderately cheaper version that someone else uses is best.

      As you can guess, I'm trying to introduce OSS as the third one though it's not easy.

      --
      A firewall can not protect you from yourself. Turn off what you do not need. Do not use the firewall to do your work.
  10. Linux efficiency by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I never realised linux had reached a level of maturity that would mean that it is inefficient enough for the gov to even consider using it.

    1. Re:Linux efficiency by BeannieBrewer · · Score: 0

      Or does this mean that Microsoft has matured into an efficient product line that governments are starting to notice to much work getting done?

      --
      Thanks, Beannie
  11. whats being bid on? by gimpboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    While most government contracts do go to the lowest bidder, they are typically grouped together such that software is only a part of the bid (e.g. hardware, software, support, etc.), or the software might even be specified (150 computers with at least 512 mb of ram,...., running windows xp, with ms office and 2 years of support). I dont think they would take a bid for "100 license of an operating system" since the end use will probably dictate the operating system being used.

    So most bids will include that fancy "total cost of ownership" thing microsoft touts. Still I think linux and other free and open alternatives will outshine their proprietary counterparts in many instances.

    --
    -- john
    1. Re:whats being bid on? by iBod · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >>While most government contracts do go to the lowest bidder

      I respectfully disagree. Contracts rarely go to the lowest bidder, govt. ones especially.

      Most govt. contracts go to outfits that the purchasing agency feel most comfortable with, totally *regardless* of cost.

      You know. Those firms where the head of said department (or indeed the minister) can look forward to a lucrative, stress-free, post-political career as a non-exec director on (or 'special advisor' to) the board.

      One or two of the current UK ministers in charge of these things are actually former execs of Andersons etc. and will probably return to the bosom of their alma mater, at some hugely elevated rank, when they are political dead meat.

    2. Re:whats being bid on? by drlake · · Score: 1

      The same process is endemic to the US political process. Assuming Cheney is alive by the end of his time in office (not guaranteed if Bush win's re-election) expect him on Haliburton's board shortly. This is one of the fundamental issues with how we select political leaders. Career politicians with no other experience aren't necessarily a good alternative (Clinton, anyone?) but at least they avoid the conflict of interest between former/future private sector employers and their public service.

    3. Re:whats being bid on? by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

      I dunno how it is over there in the UK but basically the US has two types of programs; underfunded and overfunded. The overfunded ones (usually either the defense program, or stuff intended to take away/limit the rights of the citizenry) work as you describe. The underfunded ones go to the lowest bidder. Among the underfunded government programs, we will find education. Thus, the cycle continues.

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
    4. Re:whats being bid on? by Bush+Pig · · Score: 1

      > Most govt. contracts go to outfits that the purchasing agency feel most comfortable with, totally *regardless* of cost.

      Translation: ... the vendor who supplied the most blowjobs and nice lunches and the best quality cocaine.

      --
      What a long, strange trip it's been.
  12. Uhm it's simple... by thrill12 · · Score: 1

    Repeat after me: we hate Microsoft/(name your proprietary software maker here).

    I guess someone needs to go to Open Source re-education camp again...

    --
    Slashdot: stuff for news, nerds that matter, matter for news, stuff that nerd
  13. open source/ open markets by BeannieBrewer · · Score: 0

    Let's hope Linux can become viable enough for there to be actual competition with Microsoft. I find it ironic that a government must stamp it's approval on a product to show it's econimical feasibility.

    --
    Thanks, Beannie
  14. Surely the most important thing is...... by cheezemonkhai · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Can the OSS movement afford the backhanders needed to get governments to use their software ;)

    1. Re:Surely the most important thing is...... by arivanov · · Score: 1

      Not in the UK. Check were BLiar starts his election campaigns: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/07/a_vote_for _labour/ Read the last paragraph (rest is usual el-Reg banter).

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    2. Re:Surely the most important thing is...... by cheezemonkhai · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Insightful?

      Guys it was a joke.

    3. Re:Surely the most important thing is...... by malkavian · · Score: 1

      Like they say, "many a truth is spoken in jest..."

    4. Re:Surely the most important thing is...... by fatphil · · Score: 1

      Many a true word spoken in jest.

      --
      Also FatPhil on SoylentNews, id 863
  15. This just in: by Thud457 · · Score: 1, Funny

    The Nigerian government reports that *BSD is still defunct!

    --

    the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

  16. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by aug24 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    [Which berk modded this Karl Marx bullshit insightful? Just cos you've got mod points doesn't you have to use them.]

    Firstly, stop thinking of OSS as a bunch of hippies writing free code which individuals then support themselves. This is the viewpoint that MS et al want to push (oh look, you're an anonymous coward...).

    Most OSS in big business is now supported by a variety of other big businesses, each with a vested interest in customising, improving and maintaining it. These people are going to be paid for their business and some of that will be ploughed back into development. Even if the government supported it itself, it would result in any bugfixes being handed back to the community. That's the quid pro quo of OSS - fixing the thing that bothers you (or paying someone else to do it) will cost you time or money and the benefit will go back to the community --- until we have the perfect free solution!

    Does that answer your complaint? I'm not sure, cos 'I have a bad feeling' is difficult to argue against.

    I should add, btw, that the open standards for open information interchange argument suggests very strongly that governments should use OSS until proprietary solutions support them well.

    Justin.

    --
    You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
  17. In other news .. by RealProgrammer · · Score: 3, Funny

    World's Fastest Computer Runs Linux

    UK Government Recognizes Independence of American Colonies

    Windows Considered Harmful

    Stewart Recommends Telling Truth To Investigators

    Experts Warn Not To Cross Street Without Looking
    - film at 11

    --
    sigs, as if you care.
  18. Interesting file formats... by resiak · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So the final results page offers some mild amusement when looking at the file types on offer. In June 2002, the "Open Source Software Policy Document" was released in RTF, PDF, HTML and ... Word DOC. September 2002's "Guidance on implementing OSS" was only released in PDF. Then, a glimmer of hope! The Qinetiq (what a stupid name...) report was released in PDF, RTF and none other than OOo SXW! There may be hope yet... but no, the final report that this article is about was released in RTF, PDF, HTML and DOC.

    The question is: why bother releasing in .DOC when there's an RTF right above it? Hmm...

    1. Re:Interesting file formats... by julesh · · Score: 2, Funny

      The question is: why bother releasing in .DOC when there's an RTF right above it? Hmm..

      The RTF doesn't contain the metadata. We can't tell who edited it and for how long, and there won't be any embarassing edits to display in the revision history. Obviously they have to release the .DOC file as well, otherwise we wouldn't be getting our money's worth. :)

    2. Re:Interesting file formats... by Lodragandraoidh · · Score: 1

      If they are really smart, the document content will be in XML, and the different output formats will be generated using xslt and/or CSS.

      No fuss, no muss, and no nasty edit-trail to clean up. ;)

      --

      Lodragan Draoidh
      The more you explain it, the more I don't understand it. - Mark Twain
    3. Re:Interesting file formats... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The question is: why bother releasing in .DOC when there's an RTF right above it?

      Because RTF is not fully defined: Read The Fucking __undefined___

    4. Re:Interesting file formats... by ajs318 · · Score: 1

      For the benefit of idiots who don't know what an .RTF file is, I suppose. Most people are just downright stupid. Although, if you name an .RTF with a .DOC extension, Word will open it anyway. Anyone checked to see if the .RTF and .DOC files are really the same?

      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
    5. Re:Interesting file formats... by Snart+Barfunz · · Score: 1

      'The question is: why bother releasing in .DOC when there's an RTF right above it? Hmm...' As a service to journalists. They want this news to be printed after all.

      --
      --- Yx3 = Delilah ---
  19. Foot in the door for servers by joelethan · · Score: 1
    Looking at the final report's Executive Summary and Background sections, I noted that although the UK Government were sniffy about desktop and business systems, they said:

    "no significant obstacles were noted for the adoption of Open Source in infrastructure developments"
    Looks like a significant crack in the eGov door for Linux.

    /joelethan

    1. Re:Foot in the door for servers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      significant crack in the eGov door

      You wont find it - its a dead cert they smoked it all before dreaming up their ID card scam.

  20. How about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linus reports UK Government is inviable - that would be a much more interesting new story.

  21. At last. by MartinG · · Score: 2, Funny

    I think I will start using linux now. I am very reassured by this.

    The UK govermnent has always been second to none in their execution and understanding of IT projects. They are get things right first time and are consistently under budget and finish early.

    I trust nobody more to speak with authority on issues like this.

    BWAHAHAHAAA!!!!!

    The UK GOVERNMENT!! says LINUX IS VIABLE!!!! HAHAHA!!!!

    --
    -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
    1. Re:At last. by julesh · · Score: 1

      You've missed the point. This is an instruction from top-level government to lower-level government departments that they ought to be considering open source solutions. It's an internal document. You don't have to trust it; the other government departments that it was written for do.

    2. Re:At last. by MartinG · · Score: 1

      Well, I perhaps deliberately missed the point in an attempt at humour. I have failed it seems. I will now go back to normal.

      --
      -- MartinG To mail me: echo kewyjlcxyzvjfxbqwh | tr bcefhjklqvwxyz .@adgimnoprstu
  22. Vatican reports: "Gravity is 'plausible'" by gelfling · · Score: 4, Funny

    In a stunning admission that post Ptolemaic science may in fact be an acceptable realm of study, the Vatican announced today that it is entirely plausible that gravity in fact, exists. This reverses nearly 2000 years of Christian theology which until now had answered such questions with "God says, case closed, now go home and make more Catholics."

    1. Re:Vatican reports: "Gravity is 'plausible'" by windex · · Score: 1

      This being all the more funny taking in context that gravity as we know it may not exist, since the earth sucks...

    2. Re:Vatican reports: "Gravity is 'plausible'" by Konstantine · · Score: 1

      What nonsense.

  23. Could be interesting if... by Shulai · · Score: 1

    those government reports include, besides the objective description of cost/benefits into their organization, the positive "social" issues involved if their pick FOSS, in the sense of:

    * Home contracted taylorings and enhancements, instead of buying foreign "enhanced" versions from the original editor, leads to more local IT employment.

    * The attractiveness of government as customer leads to more FOSS awareness in the market, extending the viability, and then, the benefits they already found for themselves on smaller firms and organizations. That is, if they think is good for they and adopt it, then it could become good for at least some of the people the government supossedly work for.

    Of course, it is harder to apply in USA where most of proprietary software if produced (point one semi-voided), and it is harder to apply everywhere government don't really care about their people's walfare.

  24. It's about time. by swordfish666 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Three years ago (2001), while I was working in London at a Medical Software Development firm, I recomend that the company move from ColdFusion to J2EE for scaleability and I wanted to work with Java. But the company, on Micro$ofts urging, went to .NET. Then a year later(2002) after attending LinuxExpo in London, I presented to the IT Director a plan to build a desktop OS for the National Health Services using Linux. But the Brits do not like chage and they really do not like Americans recomending change. Also around that time Sun approchad the same Director and showed him their first run at linux the SunLinuxOS. But the business reality was "We are an Microsoft shop and we cannot afford to change direction." Which was fair enough.

    Now just a few weeks ago there was a story about how Sun scored a deal with the NHS for $9 Billion dollars or 5 Billion (GBP).

    Respond if you want but I am jsut trying to vaildate my self worth now that I am back in the
    US and unemployed.

    --
    I like-a do-the cha-cha.
    1. Re:It's about time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You need to point people in the direction of:

      Linux Medical News ;-)

    2. Re:It's about time. by the_dubstyler · · Score: 1

      As far as I know, the NHS was, up until 2001, undertaking a huge COOL:GEN project. So maybe that fell apart.

      --

      Other than that, Mrs Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?

    3. Re:It's about time. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Considering you can't even spell the word "recommend" I can see why they didn't listen to you, and I suspect I know why you are unemployed. Seriously kids, YOU NEED TO GO TO COLLEGE! Unless you are an exceptional human being, or are lucky, you will simply scrape by.

      I did think the "Micro$osfts" term was really funny though. Think of that all by yourself?

  25. Rapidly maturing???! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Rapidly maturing? How is that possible when freely available code programs pre-date closed apps by decades? Free software (and 'open source') is older than the locked & buggy alternatives.

  26. What's the problem? by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If I read your post correctly, you have a problem with OSS in government because it means many people get the benefits of open source, without consciously chosing for it and without paying for it.

    I don't get the problem here. Isn't it good if everyone benefits? And isn't it even better if it doesn't cost them anything?

    As for the programmers not getting compensated (and assuming they indeed don't get compensated - i.e. they are not hired to improve and maintain the software) - it was their own choice to make the software available without demanding compensation.

    And your TANSTAAFL remark, what does that relate to? Are you afraid that the software won't really live up to the expectations? Or that it's not actually free to use? Or are you saying that governments _should_ pay for it, even though it's offered to them for free?

    --
    Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    1. Re:What's the problem? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sustainability. Metause will rapidly scale up demand, but commensurate supply cannot be purchased. So far it has been grown, either naturally (through interchange among coders) or through artificial acceleration (megacorporations paying legions of coders). Yes, OSS has scaled organically even when adopted by megacorps - who unlike governments are still tied to the monetary system for resource manipulation.

      Individual level OSS adoption and contribution can be likened to a garden project. Corporate participation can be likened to farms or greenhouses. The only thing I can think to compare government adoption to is Jesus conjuring food out of thin air.

    2. Re:What's the problem? by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

      As for the programmers not getting compensated (and assuming they indeed don't get compensated - i.e. they are not hired to improve and maintain the software) - it was their own choice to make the software available without demanding compensation.

      Yes, but volunteerism needs to be outlawed. It's communism at its finest! And housework needs to be outlawed, too. Our economy would grow by 50% if we required everyone to hire someone else and pay them at least minimum wage to do their housework.

  27. Viable indeed by cdavies · · Score: 3, Funny

    For example, if their websever were using OSS, doubtless I'd be able to RTFA rather than getting 500 internal server error.

  28. Oh yeah, but netcraft confirms that ... by cpn2000 · · Score: 1
    Oh! ... we're talking about linux are we

    ... never mind then.

    --
    All you touch and all you see is all your life will ever be ... Dark side of the moon
  29. I participated in this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I just realised that this document and the email from the government I got today are exactly the same thing.

    I was part of this :)

  30. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Karl Marx bullshit? "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need" is what Karl Marx espoused, not "TANSTAAFL". I think Karl would be very happy with government adoption of OSS, and I think you would be well served by taking a political history course.

  31. The British Public Sector is Suicidal by turgid · · Score: 4, Insightful
    That's just British state-controlled business for you. I used to work for BNFL Magnox Generation. They were just as resistant to change and just as backward looking. They did a complete company-wide roll-out to NT4 on all the servers and PCs just as Microsoft was withdrawing support for it. Despite my deputations and protestations and business cases for using UNIX, Linux, Open Source etc. I was ignored or given a patronising pat on the head and labelled a lunatic. Now I have a much better paid job outside of the Public Sector and I never have to touch a Winows box ever.

    Rumour has it they're now considering alternatives to help get M$ to lower prices.

    The British Public Sector goes out of its way to procure the most expensive, unreliable, unwieldy, complicated and unsuitable solutions to its problems. It's hard to explain. It's kind of a mind-set that it has. It's pointy-hairedness taken to the extreme.

    I could go on, but I'm just making myself depressed. It's my tax money too...

    1. Re:The British Public Sector is Suicidal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hi Turgid, I also work for BNFL Magnox, at Berkeley, but not in IT.

      Ignore those rumours, they are now about to roll out XP.

      My department give a monthly prize for cost-saving suggestions. I suggested using OSS for the network servers (no point even thinking about it for the desktop here). I came second that month, beaten by a suggestion to drop free coffee at meetings. Not that OSS would have been adopted even if I had won (and we still get the coffee).

      But there is an internal web server here running Apache on an old Solaris box no longer needed for stress analysis. It serves a big financial database using MySQL with a front end written in-house at this site two years ago. I do not use it much myself, but gather it is a very good system, and the software and hardware cost nothing of course.

      But Supreme HQ (Risley) have now heard of this initiative and have ordered it to be taken down, because it goes against the company's IT policies, which are (1) all M$ platforms and office apps, (2) no in-house development, and (3) financial systems to use SAP.

      The battle between Berkley and Risley over this issue is currently unresolved, but it illustrates the stupidity we are up against.

      The fault is not the IT people, some of whom have privately told me they would be very happy to run OSS. It is the fault of the managers and directors above them. These set the policy, but their deepest knowledge of IT is their home PC bought from Dixons, pre-loaded with Windows and Works.

      Sorry, I must remain anon.

    2. Re:The British Public Sector is Suicidal by turgid · · Score: 1
      Hi Turgid, I also work for BNFL Magnox, at Berkeley, but not in IT.

      I wasn't in IT either, but I used to administer our section's UNIX workstations :-)

      My department give a monthly prize for cost-saving suggestions. I suggested using OSS for the network servers (no point even thinking about it for the desktop here). I came second that month, beaten by a suggestion to drop free coffee at meetings. Not that OSS would have been adopted even if I had won (and we still get the coffee).

      Ah, the good old Suggestion Scheme. I got a letter once telling me that my suggestion "wasn't good enough to deserve a prize" so I started submitting them anonymously since I had the "that crazy Linux lunatic" label.

      But Supreme HQ (Risley) have now heard of this initiative and have ordered it to be taken down, because it goes against the company's IT policies, which are (1) all M$ platforms and office apps, (2) no in-house development, and (3) financial systems to use SAP.

      I can't believe that they're still being so pointy-haired about this sort of thing. We knew from the outset that their one-size-fits-all IT policy was doomed, and management still doesn't see this? It reminds me of the NT roll-out, when the young girl from IT approached my SPARC workstation with a DOS boot floppy and reached for the power switch becasue she "had to check if the machine was fast enough to run NT."

      The fault is not the IT people, some of whom have privately told me they would be very happy to run OSS. It is the fault of the managers and directors above them. These set the policy, but their deepest knowledge of IT is their home PC bought from Dixons, pre-loaded with Windows and Works.

      In other companies, the PHBs ask the Engineers to specify the technical stuff, and take the high-level decisions themselves.

  32. Please define "best". by hotspotbloc · · Score: 2, Informative
    Why are we always breaking software into open and proprietary?

    Because there is a solid break when comparing most proprietary software to FOSS. Proprietary software companies design their software so you can't easily switch to anything else. FOSS doesn't "lock the exit door" on you with software patents or proprietary data formats. You want to leave a FOSS program? Fine, leave and take your data elsewhere. Want to leave Microsoft? While it's possible to extract your data they purposely make it very difficult. In many cases even though a proprietary software program is more "refined" the long term costs of required licenses and updates greatly diminish it's value.

    Imagine if your driver's license only allowed you to drive Ford cars since that's what you were driving when you took your driver's test. Most people would find this an unreasonable restriction. Don't get me wrong, Ford makes nice cars (I own a Focus ZTW) but what if I want something else? Why should I have to get another driver's license just to buy and drive a Honda, Toyoto or VW? The answer is I shouldn't have to. This is one of the arguments supporting FOSS over proprietary programs: the freedom to switch with minimal hassle when it's best.

    The business model for most proprietary software companies is not to build great software (IMO except companies like Google) but how to bleed the customer dry and never let them go. Instead of improving their product they just tie the data in a proprietary format so you can't easily switch. Most proprietary software is also covered by EULAs which allow the company to demand you stop using their program upon demand, unlike FOSS. While this clause is rarely used Bill Gates once said he'd terminate all MS Windows licenses if the US Govt broke them apart. While a quick retraction followed, the point was he could legally do this. Imagine waking up this morning, booting up XP and getting a window that says "Microsoft has decided to terminate your license. If you wish to continue using this product please purchase a new license". You agreed to the EULA so you're stuck. I can say that I have no concerns of Linus or the people at Gentoo doing this to me. =)

    Why can't people just create a prioritized list of requirements and then use it to pick the software that fits the best for them?

    This is a reasonable question. If a proprietary software program works better than anything else, has an open data format and a reasonable amount of time (maybe two or so years) of no cost bug fixes then it's worth looking at. But how many proprietary programs pass this test? Some, but not many.

    While your comment makes sense to us, most proprietary software companies aren't listening unlike many FOSS projects who are. Is all proprietary software evil and all FOSS good? Of course not. As you said "pick the best" and I agree. I just think that the rights that are included in FOSS many times outweigh most anything the proprietary world can offer.

    Thanks for your comment. I suspect it's one that has people thinking.

    --
    "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
    1. Re:Please define "best". by mOdQuArK! · · Score: 2, Interesting
      While this clause is rarely used Bill Gates once said he'd terminate all MS Windows licenses if the US Govt broke them apart. While a quick retraction followed, the point was he could legally do this.

      I have a feeling that this was a baseless threat - if he tried to pull off something like that, the resultant outcry would have caused Congress to pass an exception to the copyright laws, just for Microsoft software. Somehow I don't think that's the effect Gates would've had in mind.

    2. Re:Please define "best". by hotspotbloc · · Score: 2, Informative
      I have a feeling that this was a baseless threat - if he tried to pull off something like that, the resultant outcry would have caused Congress to pass an exception to the copyright laws, just for Microsoft software.

      While such a law could be passed it would most likely would be repealed as a bill of attainder, a legislative act that singles out an individual or group for punishment without a trial.

      IMO Gates would really have to be at the end of his rope to do something like this to the end user. It is the act of a company in it's last breaths, something MS is clearly not. That said they did "basicly" pull the Windows NT 3.x source code license of a CT company (Bristol Technology) that was legally porting MS DLLs to Unix (yes, the proper Unix and not Un*x). It pretty much killed them.

      While MS is not the best example to use there have been other companies that have used EULAs to mass revoke licenses people paid for.

      Somehow I don't think that's the effect Gates would've had in mind.

      What Gates has in his mind is a true mystery and something to be warry of.

      --
      "I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
  33. Well lets see, nope. They use and add to it. by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 4, Informative
    You can say a lot about the US goverment but the part that actually does things is hardly linux hostile.

    Linux is used by the fbi for forensic research. The NSA added valuable code to linux to make it a lot more secure for the user and didn't even add any backdoors for evil agents to activate your computer over the net and hypnotize your dog into telling on you. NASA uses it in some roles. The army has switched from windows for it future soldier computer system to linux because they said that windows sucked donkey balls and even with billions to throw at it they couldn't get it stable were linux could and could do it on cheaper more robuust hardware. Well they didn't say as goverment never uses statements shorter then 10 pages but that is the gist of it.

    So where the british goverment has said that linux can be considered, the germans have one town swithing the US has billions invested in it AND is giving back to the world free open code that did something amazingly usefull.

    MS must be having a fit. Loosing contracts as the US army is not good.

    It knows it can't compete at the top with companies like SAP. It says it doesn't want to but really it can't Not just that it ain't got the code. No one in their right mind would a major supply system on an OS everyone knows crashes. Often. (No don't tell me how XP is much more stable, when boeing is doing last minute ordering a reboot costs millions.)

    And now it is loosing contracts to people who really should buy into the MS spin hook line and sinker. Some geeks running linux is bad enough, but generals buying it? What next? The suits at wall street, OOps to late. The suits at IBM? Oops to late.

    So the US is plenty linux friendly. Just in a different way. Munich buying linux is nice for IBM and Suse (or was it redhat) but it means shit for the rest of us.

    NSA adding security features as opensource to linux is very very nice indeed. Thank you american taxpayer for supporting our communist OS.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Well lets see, nope. They use and add to it. by losinggeneration · · Score: 1

      Thank you american taxpayer for supporting our communist OS.

      You're welcome.

  34. Linux can Win in the West, not China by d102804 · · Score: 3, Interesting
    In the West, people respect intellectual property. The rate of piracy of software is about 15%.

    In this climate, open source software like Linux and Apache has a good chance of seizing a large chunk of their respective markets. Such software is free, and service is low cost due to a supportive community of geeks willing to offer free advice via various bulletin boards and chatrooms.

    By contrast, Linux has little chance in China. In China (which includes Taiwan province and Hong Kong), all software is essentially free. The Chinese freely steal what they do not want to buy; 95% of software in China is pirated. Since Windows is "free" and Linux is free, there is no motivation for Chinese people to choose Linux over Windows.

    1. Re:Linux can Win in the West, not China by guroove · · Score: 2, Informative

      Part of that is correct, except that china, like many of us, essentially doesn't trust microsoft. The chinese have for a long time been supporters of linux as seen in this article here and here

      --
      Someone stole my old sig.
    2. Re:Linux can Win in the West, not China by listen · · Score: 1

      This is one of the stupidest comments I have read in a while.

      Do you understand that the important thing about free software is not acquisition cost? The other advantages apply to China just as much as the West. Also, remember that a lot of formerly state owned businesses are consolidating and ending up with significant overseas (eg US, EU) operations. It won't be viable for MS to let them get away with it to maintain market share, unless they want to abandon all licencing revenue. Doubtful.

      On the consumer side, if Linux got a significant share in Japan, US, and EU, the Chinese will use it because thats where the games will be. China is not going to last as the bastion of proprietary software. How short termist are you?

    3. Re:Linux can Win in the West, not China by FooBarWidget · · Score: 1

      "In the West, people respect intellectual property."

      So you say, while probably running a pirated copy of Windows XP. Even if you don't, take a look at your teenage son. He's probably download "kewl warez" from Kazaa all day.

  35. Linux, Windows, and the Ultimate Victor by Dink+Paisy · · Score: 4, Interesting
    Linux is a growing factor worldwide, but from what I've seen, Microsoft's doom is in the very distant future. For the moment it seems that they are still increasing their market share.

    Apple continues to lose market share, as they have for a long time. Even with the introduction of Power Macintosh G5s, new Power Macintosh G5s, and the new iMac G5, growth of sales of Macintosh computers haven't kept up with the overall growth of the PC market. Apple is a profitable company in little danger of disappearing in the near future, but it is in even less danger of becoming a dominant force in the overall PC market.

    Linux is gaining traction in industry, but it seems that it is still mostly in customers moving from other UNIX systems. Sun, HP, SGI and IBM are losing the low-end UNIX workstation market to Linux. The mass migration to Windows has stopped, but Windows is still taking a little bit of that. A more common path I've seen is a move from proprietary UNIX to Linux. With Linux comes cheap x86 machines. Shortly after the x86 machines arrive people start running Windows. That is, the migration goes proprietary UNIX->Linux->Windows. Overall I have seen more Linux to Windows migrations than the other way around.

    I don't mean this as doom and gloom to Linux. Proportionally, Linux is growing much faster than Windows. Linux is also improving much faster than Windows. As the installed base grows bigger, more services will become available, and Windows to Linux migrations will become more viable.

    Hmm... let me make a WAG. Microsoft is really concentrating on security now. I think that Microsoft will handle security issues just as well as they have handled stability issues. That is to say in ten years Windows security jokes will be a cliche that out-of-touch Slashdot readers make, and get corrected on by the more normal users.

    At that point, there will be some other big issue. I propose (another WAG) that it will be how well the operating system supports new hardware models, and highly parallel personal computers in particular. Hardware will move from todays fast single-threaded processors to processors that run a single thread not much faster than today's processors, but can run many threads in parallel. Windows and Linux both have trouble with scalability now. In this future scenario it is quite possible that one operating system will be four times faster than the other. If you want Linux to beat Microsoft, make sure that Linux is the one that is four times faster.

    --

    Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
    whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
    --Proverbs 9:7
    1. Re:Linux, Windows, and the Ultimate Victor by scupper · · Score: 1

      With Linux comes cheap x86 machines. Shortly after the x86 machines arrive people start running Windows. That is, the migration goes proprietary UNIX->Linux->Windows. Overall I have seen more Linux to Windows migrations than the other way around.

      That's pretty interesting. I'd like to read what Microsoft's take is on this is since it would seem in some situations, Linux is actually expediting migration from Unix > Windows.

      I'm curious, do you think that if Microsoft were to get into the OSS biz and release a distro of Linux, that they would be targeting this very migration pattern you're describing, or am I all wet on this?

  36. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    TANSTAAFL ... "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch" ... Lunch is a physical product, as is beer; software is not. It costs nothing to make a copy of Linux, except maybe the cost of the media to which it is recorded. Remeber that Free Software in the OSS movment is Free as in free speach, not as in free beer.

  37. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It costs nothing to make a copy of Linux

    That's a tremendous lie.

    It costs nothing to reproduce a copy of Linux once created, but that's a different statement.

  38. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Government adoption of OSS, unlike every other form, has the potential for zero reciprocity.

    Furthermore, if governments use individual- or corporate-form methods of contributing back to OSS, they are de facto corrupting it because the money fueling government additions will have necessarily been seized using coercion or force from its populace. In the case of, e.g. Microsoft, at least a cogent entity determines whether or not they choose to dirty their hands in this way. In the case of OSS, everyone's hands get dirtied and nobody made a choice.

  39. Software patents ... by zrq · · Score: 1
    From the section on Legal Issues :
    The European Union is considering changes to the EU directive on software patenting which could have an impact on existing Open Source Software. Again the risk should be taken into account when considering Open Source solutions.
    Perhaps the UK govenment might realise that allowing software patents in the EU is a bad idea, and vote against it ....
    1. Re:Software patents ... by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 2, Funny
      UK govenment might realise that allowing software patents in the EU is a bad idea, and vote against it ..

      No, this is the UK Government If they realise its a bad idea, they vote for it.

      --
      Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  40. Windows for warships by frankvl · · Score: 1

    - based on MineSweeper technology -

    1. Re:Windows for warships by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "My concern, as a whole, is that the use of windows for warships puts at risk the safety of ships at sea and the defence of the Realm"

      http://www.channel4.com/news/2004/10/week_2/09_w in dows.html
      C4 news has a good story on it.

      But with Blair's "frequent meetings" with Sir
      Willam Gates what else can be expected? his knighthood was recommended by Gordon Brown for "services to Industry"

    2. Re:Windows for warships by ajs318 · · Score: 1
      But with Blair's "frequent meetings" with Sir Willam Gates what else can be expected? his knighthood was recommended by Gordon Brown for "services to Industry"
      Well, it has to be said, Bill Gates has done many great services to certain industries. If it wasn't for the consequences of having everyone default to almost-root privileges for far too long, there would be no need for the anti-virus and spyware removal industries! If it wasn't for thousands of compromised boxes sitting on ADSL connections ready to spew out mail messages, there would be no dodgy prescription drugs and counterfeit Rolex watches industry! If it wasn't for servers falling over without reason or warning, there would be no need for the "training chimpanzees to push a reset button" industry!
      --
      Je fume. Tu fumes. Nous fûmes!
  41. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What's wrong with us generous techno-hippes, eh?

    Peace & Love!

  42. Except for the Navy they have NMCI by Camel+Pilot · · Score: 2, Interesting

    it is encouraged that more OS's besides Microsoft's should be used. Diversity is important. Linux is authorized for use throughout the government, and actually is used alot more than you would think.

    Unfortunately the Navy has implimented a brain-dead, microsoft only, across the enterprise, $8 Billion (yes, that is a B) contract call NMCI adminstrated by EDS.

    The contract was designed for typical office use with no thought how it would work in a Development, Research or Industrial environment which the Navy has considerable. All of my existing Linux installations are now referred to as "legacy systems" and any new system development is required to comply with NMCI (Read microsoft).

    The system is a monoculturist dream. One vulnerability and the enitre Navy's infrastructure will be fall like a house of cards. Not that someone thought it wise to relocate all our local LAN servers in central locations across the country - increase the likehood for failure and data compromise.

    We cannot install software unless it is on an approved list. Only problem access to the list is restricted and difficult to get. The list is a joke. I am allow to install Mozilla but it must be verion 1.1. Or I can install perl but only 5.6 is approved on windows. Notepad is the text editor of choice.

    Any fellow NMCI suffers out there take not that I found a place to complain here at NMCISUCKS.com.

    And No to any NCMI lurkers I did not post this from work.

  43. Wow! Great. Now the UK government by multiplexo · · Score: 1
    will be able to use the money that they save by deploying Linux to purchase more CCTV cameras, or maybe on a PR campaign to convince everyone that Blind Man Blunkett's ID cards are a good idea!

    Here in America of course adoption of Linux will allow the US government to spend more money on covering the breasts of statues, so as not to offend John Ashcroft, and they'll be able to give more money to Halliburton. Wheeeee!

    --
    cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
  44. Do you really want OSS tainted with slave labour? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Because that government "support", including those bugfixes, would have been generated using taxes and not wealth as a basis for salary. Government does not earn taxes - you don't pay them after the job's been completed to your satisfaction. Government coerces them from its population, sort of like a mugger in the streets.

    OSS has been seen as a shining beacon of freedom. Governments attaching themselves to it, leech-like, may generate some benefit for end users but at what cost? "Microsoft does it, so why can't we" is not a valid response IMO.

  45. Linux can Win in China by bergwitz · · Score: 1

    Not really. There are many disadvantages to pirated software. Pirated copies of Windows usually have troubles using Windows Update and pirated software always comes without any sort of support. That is a downside also to the Chinese customers who buys pirated software (they do buy it still, just at lower cost).
    For organizations of some size, pirated software has many limits. First off, they may be so large that it is worth suing them. Secondly, they need support and stability something hard to achieve with pirated software.
    Free software doesn't have these issues. If the Chinese government deceides that it prefers Linux due to among other things these issues, Linux stands a fair chance in China.

    --
    Evolution is just a scientific theory. Creationism is not.
  46. theoretical Microsoft Linux distribution by Dink+Paisy · · Score: 1
    Hmm... I don't think Microsoft would release a Linux distribution. If they did I think they wouldn't use it to promote Windows as the end goal. A theoretical Microsoft Linux distribution would probably be separate from the main Windows group, and would probably have the business goal of selling Microsoft Linux, not of getting people to migrate from Linux to Windows. I'm sure they would agressively target proprietary UNIX customers, though.

    Just thinking of what the business case would be, I suppose they would have to implement at least .NET and a Win32 subsystem for Linux. They would have to convince the Office group and various server groups that supporting Microsoft Linux was a good case. The Win32 subsystem would be essential for convincing those groups that a port would be viable, given that supporting a new platform is both difficult and risky. If they could get those ports then Microsoft Linux might be very compelling. It would certainly attract a lot of businesses who are already examining Linux, but are tied to Office. It might also drive new sales of Microsoft server products. They are actually quite decent products, but a lot of people won't trust the Windows platform when they need high reliability. Running SQL Server or Exchange on Linux could be very compelling.

    I really don't think they will do it. The NT kernel is quite different from Linux, and matching the capabilities on Linux would be difficult, and translating between them would probably involve a significant performance hit. It's an interesting idea, though, and if I were a strategist at Microsoft I would definitely look into it further. Making a Win32 layer for the Linux kernel might also be an interesting project for a Masters student, perhaps using the Windows CE sources as a starting point.

    --

    Whoever corrects a mocker invites insult;
    whoever rebukes a wicked man incurs abuse.
    --Proverbs 9:7
    1. Re:theoretical Microsoft Linux distribution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are they paying you to say this ? Blatent MS trolls on Slashdot - what is the world coming to ? For a start, there is a win32 subsystem for Linux, it's called Cygwin and many businesses, including my own, use it extensively. Secondly, there is Services For Unix, which enables finally being able to integrate win32 boxes into a sane network configuration. Finally, this whole sad thread is based on the assumption that MS could write good software if it tried, and secondly that anyone already writing good software cares. The parent and these comments are so blatantly written by MS employees I'm amazed they haven't been modded out of existence. People, come on !!

  47. Great picture/caption on BBC by Spunk · · Score: 1
    From TFA: a highly zoomed-in picture of Tux followed by "It may look cute, but Linux is bent on global domination"

    :)

  48. moral argument for open source in government by uncadonna · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm disappointed with this discussion so far. I'm actively looking for moral arguments for open source software in government.

    This isn't purely an academic exercise. I have an appointment with the progressive mayor of a medium sized city to show off a LAMP project that I'm doing for the city bureaucracy. This city administration is stuck with a nightmarish tangle of legacy proprietary software garbage and yet the city is home to one of the world's leading CS departments and is a hotbed of OSS. It's absurd.

    Anyway, even if that weren't the case there's a case to be made that governments should not merely tolerate OSS but demand it. This mayor and council would be open to such arguments if they were appropriately presented.

    I'm sure it's been made somewhere by someone besides me, but Google has not been kind to me so far.

    I'd appreciate any discussion or links on this topic. Resolved: a democratic government, in service to its constituency, should whenever possible refrain from building its public services around proprietary software built upon trade secrets.

    Thanks in advance.

    --
    mt
  49. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 1

    That's the quid pro quo of OSS - fixing the thing that bothers you (or paying someone else to do it) will cost you time or money and the benefit will go back to the community

    If your fix is incorporated into the authoritative source code for a project, you also won't have to re-do your fix when the next release of the project comes out.

  50. From: The OSS Movement by maxchaote · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To: Microsoft
    Re: Linux

    "Nothing else in the world ...
    not all the armies ... is so
    powerful as an idea whose time
    has come."

    -- Victor Hugo

    1. Re:From: The OSS Movement by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
      Thanks.

      I'll remember that one.

  51. Pro-Linux report sexed down by government by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pro-Linux report sexed down by government
    A copy of the report, seen by silicon.com with amendments still visible, shows changes were made to the government's stance on the particular advantages of Linux versus proprietary software when it comes to security. The Office of Government Commerce (OGC) is the Treasury office charged with improving public sector procurement and project management in the UK.
    http://software.silicon.com/os/0,39024651,391 25400 ,00.htm

  52. Wiki wiki wiki! (Re:Wishful Thinking I Fear :() by GCU+Friendly+Fire · · Score: 1
    My Point - Love to see it happen, but not holding my breath

    Could this be A taste of things to come?

    The Sustainable Development Commission is running its consultation exercise online using the open source software package PHPWiki.

  53. If the queen moves back to Linux... by WebCowboy · · Score: 1

    ...what distro would she use? And would she grant it a royal warrant?

    I think it would be cool if say, every box and/or CD of the official SuSE Linux distro had the royal arms stamped on it, surrounded by the phrase "By Appointment to her Majesty the Queen". Maybe Novell could put the parliament buildings on the box to make it look a bit like the label on a bottle of HP sauce...

    mmmm.....HP sauce...

    1. Re:If the queen moves back to Linux... by pershino · · Score: 1
      I think it would be cool if say, every box and/or CD of the official SuSE Linux distro had the royal arms stamped on it, surrounded by the phrase "By Appointment to her Majesty the Queen".

      Now there's a campaign idea!

  54. Analogy not far off. This report was "sexed down". by jrumney · · Score: 1

    According to this report, the always so useful MS Word change tracking reveals that this report was originally even more enthusiastic about Linux. Obviously this was not in keeping with the officially sponsored Government policy because the claims were toned down before release.

  55. decisions should be based on a holistic assessment by Beolach · · Score: 1
    --
    Join moola.com, play games to earn money.
  56. That's Tautology, my man ! by Taco+Cowboy · · Score: 1



    You sez:

    "Any line of questioning that begins with "Why
    don't men wear skirts?" is going to come around
    to an answer which can best be paraphrased as
    "Because men don't wear skirts"

    Another name for it is Tautology

    --
    Muchas Gracias, Señor Edward Snowden !
    1. Re:That's Tautology, my man ! by ross+axe · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough, even your own Wikipedia link indicates that the definition of tautology is not what you seem to think it is.

  57. The problem is conflation of individuals and gov't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Yes, but volunteerism needs to be outlawed. It's communism at its finest! And housework needs to be outlawed, too. Our economy would grow by 50% if we required everyone to hire someone else and pay them at least minimum wage to do their housework.

    Guess what? Your sarcasm doesn't disguise your ignorance.

    The OP wasn't against your straw man of simple volunteerism. Or any of the other straw men offered in response by people too harried to bother trying to understand difficult concepts to do anything except knee-jerk assume this argument is an attack on Linux.

    Here's an example even you, and a chimp, could understand: You just found out that your favorite OSS Desktop Environment was created in a Chinese labor camp at the behest of the PRC, and all of the coders were executed once the project finished. Do you have any moral qualms over using it? Should derivative projects be concerned with the method in which the code came to be a contribution?

    Governments are different operational entities than individuals. You can't get around it, or pretend that government wealth is earned in the same way indvidual/corporate wealth is. Government funding of OSS, due to A) the viral nature of OSS licenses and B) the coercive nature of tax collection by governments, will taint OSS with slave labor - still a laughing matter?

    Personally, I don't find the prospect funny. But laugh on, all the way to the society and situations you deserve.

  58. Re:Governments adopting OSS bothers me. by 16K+Ram+Pack · · Score: 1
    That's the quid pro quo of OSS - fixing the thing that bothers you (or paying someone else to do it) will cost you time or money and the benefit will go back to the community.

    What's funny to me is the view of the "software industry" about OSS. The idea that you have to jealously guard all the code because that's your value. They forget that a heck of a lot of companies don't really view their code as "IP" - it's just something they use. For them, there are some benefits of giving away code...

    implemented in the software. Next release, it's back in there.

    familiarity for developers. The code may become more familiar to people outside. This can protect the investment because there are a lot more developers know your code.

    part of something/familiarity/goodwill. I do a lot of things on a couple of forums, and I help a lot of people out. When I get up shit creek, I can ask a question, and I get a lot of help, people are reciprocating. IBM are open sourcing a ton of code at the moment, and you hear quite a lot of geeks speaking nicely about IBM. This may translate into more laptop sales or whatever.

    For some companies, giving it away is a bit of a no-brainer. They had to do the change whether they give it away or not. Giving it away doesn't affect that cost. And the cost of giving it away? In many cases, it's an upload.

    The only download is competitor advantage. That if you own a bank and upload your interest calculation routine, one of your customers can use it and take advantage or your investment. But rarely do people write a huge project and OSS it now. It's either a small project that grew big, or something sitting around which a company decided to open source, often because they couldn't make money from it. So, often the changes added by 1 company in 1 go are often quite small.

    And absolutely governments should be pro open-standards. And government, unlike many businesses can do it - start by insisting that any communication between a supplier and government has to be in OASIS format. Business will do it because they will want the contract. You'll immediately raise the install base of OpenOffice.org, and as a result have a lot more businesses communicating between each other with it.