Slashdot Mirror
Microsoft Banning Modded Xboxen
An anonymous reader writes "Since the release of Halo 2 (ed: and just before), Microsoft has been banning modified Xboxes from Xbox Live. Some have even been banned with their mod-chips turned off. Previously many users had been able to use Xbox Live provided they disabled their mod-chip. There are a few theories floating around as to how MS is doing this: from scanning the hard-drive for non-MS material to being able to check if the DVD-drive/Hard-disk serial number is from stock or not."
you afraid ms bans slashdot too if you refer to xboxes?
and anyways, surely it would have been known for you as a xbox owner, especially owner of a modded one, that the software can scan the hd(and itself, which it should do for the net play anyways, on which they will pin the reason for this to be).
yeah, it kinda sucks that you can't get the most out of your xbox (use it for emulators, xvid playing AND gaming on xbox live, you pretty much knew you would in reality have to choose between the two) - BUT YOU KNEW THAT when you put down the cash for the system anyways.
obvious solutions? don't modify anything on the harddisk by yourself. pretty darn hard for the box to guess by which bios it was last booted with..
world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
From the start, everyone here has been saying that since they owned the XBox machine, they can mod it however they want.
Great. Go nuts.
But it works both ways. Microsoft owns the Live Network - and if they say "No Modded XBoxes", that's what it means.
They are under no obligation to let you break their rules. Just because some people have gotten away with it up until now means nothing.
...Also, I didn't know Buggalo could fly.
What I *CAN* comment on is that if I wanted to ban a device from accessing my network, I would block it at layer 2.
That said, spoof a different mac address. Go into your local Blockbuster, or wherever, rent an xbox for an hour. Take it home, plug it in, get it's mac address.
Then go to your router or other broadband sharing device and spoof the mac address of that machine. On ya go.
Now we just have to determine HOW the hacks are being detected....
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Boxen?
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Installing Linux on it and using it as a VERY useful entertainment device is. It's cheap, and it can even interface with your tivo to allow you to play back your recordings from another room.
Or you could just install MythTV.
or run emulators.
I want an XBox, and I'll probably NEVER buy a game for it. THAT is what Microsoft hates. People who buy the loss-leader hardware and never buy the software.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
http://www.xbconnect.com/
Xbox connect is supposedly improving constantly and adding a lot of features to make it more new user friendly. My friend has a modded xbox and says that it works fine. I think it lacks the useful interface options and stat tracking of xbox live....however if you do get banned (and I know theres a big percentage of users on this site who have modded xboxs), give it a try
afaik, Sony PS2 uses the DNAS (Dynamic Network Authentication System) to scan whether the game CD is authentic sony product and then checks if the PS2 have been modded..
the result is (at least for me, using Messiah2) is real difficulty in logging in with modchip turned off..
I know many of you readers (amazingly) aren't terribly familiar with Linux, so I'll explain this the easiest way I can.
Could someone here with an XBox with an XBox live account, and a broadband sharing device run ethereal on their LAN, begin a capture on the XBox's IP address, then turn on the XBox and log into live, then post the caputure?
With the slashdot hive-mind as it's so called, we can have an open hacking discussion. I'm not saying it would be obvious, but who knows...perhaps we can see something? I don't own one yet or I'd be doing this myself.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Source: Urban Dictionary
xboxen
n. pl. The plural form of xbox.
At only $180 for a new Xbox, less for a used one, there's another alternative: buy a second, unmodified Xbox for exclusive use on Xbox Live. If you can afford Xbox Live and a mod chip, then you should be able to afford a second Xbox.
If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
Halo 2 is what's doing the checking and reporting to MS. They aren't checking themselves. So if you have a modded box that's still playable on Live, stay away from Halo 2 and you should be fine. Unless they include this checking with every new game, that is...
If you have a X-box what else are you playing besides Halo?
Or they simply deactivate your xbox live account... then it doesn't matter if you spoof MAC address or use a different xbox, you're still screwed...
(I don't know if this is how they do it or not, but I sort of remember reading that they deactivated accounts for people logging in w/modchips..)
Place sig here.
It bans the Xbox's serial number, and as far as I know, there is not a way to spoof that
It would make sense to include the check in all software, presumably all they need to do is update the Xbox Live libraries that developers use (I assume most / all use the same basic libraries for stuff like gamertag authentication etc.)
A modded Xbox sort of appeals to me, but I don't want to lose my Xbox Live account, so if I keep my Xbox Live account, I'd probably get a second Xbox to mod (probably one of those nice Crystal ones that seem to have replaced the black model, at least in the UK).
10 PRINT "LOOK AROUND YOU ";
20 GOTO 10
But, Xbox Live isn't speaking directly to you on the same LAN. When your Xbox says "How do I get to x.x.x.x", the router says "I can, and I am at MAC X". Your MAC never leaves the router, since the router will advertise its own MAC to the next device up, and then forward the results back to you.
With a basic routing premise in mind, it won't matter what your MAC address is--unless you are not specifically relating to layers and routing in general, and rather, a specific hardware ID that MS is using to identify devices. In that case, you'd have to modify the MAC in the game itself, as it would be part of a hardware inventory, rather than a protocol stack.
I'm guessing some kiddie with Mod points woke up to find that Live finally detected and LART'd his modded XBox.
Grow the hell up and learn a lesson from this instead of modding everyone "Troll".
There is some tunneling software you can still use. Not too easy but works.
THAT is what Microsoft hates. People who buy the loss-leader hardware and never buy the software.
Actually no. They probably most hate people who buy competitor's hardware, rivaled only by hating people who buy no hardware.
For every XBox that sells, "loss leader" or not, they get to go back to marketing with "we sold x million (plus one now) units" and build their image. There is actually a part positive effect for XBox even when a GameCube or PS2 sells, because they go back with "look at the video game console industry -- booming!", but this is at least partly if not completely cancelled out by the fact that the competitor gets the sale and market share.
People who buy no hardware even can be "spun" into a positive effect -- "look there is still a market to be tapped".
MORTAR COMBAT!
It doesn't ban based on the mac address. It bans based on a unique number stored in the Xbox's EEPROM. Based on that, you can get someone else who never plans to play on Xbox live to use a utility to get the data out of their EEPROM, send it to you, and you can reflash your xbox with this. This will get you back on Live. Unfortunately, unless you figure out how they banned you in the first place, they'll just ban this new EEPROM. It was a useful trick when the only way to get banned was to forget to switch off your modchip prior to hopping on Live, but no longer.
IP is a Layer 3 protocol. Your (Layer 2) ethernet address isn't transmitted to servers over the internet. Many IP enabled devices don't even use ethernet and thus have no mac address.
Regardless, these machines aren't blocked from connecting to the network. They're allowed to connect, checked and then disconnected.
Ok, so disregard my previous post aboot the account getting deactivated.
:)
Apparently, when they want to ban someone from xbox live, they ban the Xbox's EEPROM id, which is the unique identifier for each xbox.
I get the idea from this thread and this thread that there's a way to flash your EEPROM so that you can get back on, but I don't know how you'd do that. (I use Xlink Kai for my online gaming
Place sig here.
MS has actually been banning modded xboxes off of Live! since Live! started, if you were dumb enough to try to connect with the modchip turned on. The way to get around this with a modded xbox was to
1. Lock the harddrive, which made it report as an 8GB hard drive (stock) and
2. Disable the modchip.
Effectively, this makes the modded box look and act like an unmodded box, meaning, you cant use the extra HD space and you have to use a proper, legal, game disc.
However, with the release of Halo2, people who have been previously ok using this method are now being banned.
It looks like Halo 2 checks the model # and serial # of the hard drive. Will someone tell me why Microsoft cares what hard drive you have in the system? Instead, why don't they check the serial # of Halo 2 game itself? That way, they are detecting piracy rather than modded X-boxes. Seems more fair to me.
:-) )
Not that it matters. Now that we know what they check and how, it should be easy to disable the check or to spoof it.
(Next thing you know, they will have a camera checking to see if you have illegal stickers on the side of it. Error: XBOX Banned - GameCube detected in same room.
who really cares. If you got your xbox modded then you shouldnt be paying for online play anyway.
There are may programs that allow you to have the same great online gaming experience for free.
Much like the original halo, free online gaming is just a step away. I thank everyone who took the time to write/develope the programs. They should be commeded for what they have done for the "openbox" community
Halo2 patched my Dashboard/Live/whatever you want to call it, so I suspect that's where whatever new checking came from.
... acceptable ... to me, than trying to limit various Fair Use activities relating to the hardware or media itself which are implicitly granted by purchasing them. That's all merely MHO, of course.
Just a WAG, but I'd bet more on scanning for non-Xbox content on the disk than checking for serial #s or the like, because the latter seems more likely to generate false negatives (banned because you had a warranty repair and they forgot to sign off the new serial #, or the like) than finding some kinda wacky content on the disk.
In general, I'm not sure what the big deal is, as others have said. Limiting access to a service (Live) to those who follow a set of conditions is a lot more
Xentax
You shouldn't verb words.
I never picked up Halo, but I play this game called "dashboard" all the time... Great game. That minigame where you get to set the clock is my favorite!
See the story on the wasp posers getting beat up.
"Boxen," is sort of like that. It's a claim to membership in a community where membership used to be granted entirely based on ones technical acumen. Only there usually aren't many consequences beyond karma. And after a certain point, there are more posers than actual experts, so posts questioning the use of colloquial jargon, get modded as "Trolls."
I've never played Halo... I play my Xbox for Crimson Skies and Burnout 3. I just can't seem to play FPS games on consoles.
There are only 10 kinds of people in this world... those who understand binary and those who don't
All this is doing is guaranteeing they won't get any money for Live from me, and Live support won't make me more likely to buy a particular game.
Because I'm not going to give up Xbox Media Center, MAMEoX, UAE-X in favour of online games when I have a computer with games that I don't have to pay by the month to play online.
(and yes - I bought them)
What is everyone's opinion about aftermarket hardware that allows a user to use keyboard/mouse in their console FPS online? Is it fair? Does it unbalance gameplay? Should it be allowed by XBOX Live? (Assuming it could be detected.) A buddy and I were just debating this. I am against them. Opinions?
I mean, come on - don't fall for this one unless you want somebody to steal your Xbox Live account.
Yes, it's likely to be an encrypted session, but encryption only exists until it's broken...
If you've ever studied German at all, you might be aware that the plural form of many words in that language is formed by adding the suffix "-en" to a word.
It seems obvious to me that using the plural form "Xboxen" is an example of playful imitation of this linguistic behaviour.
not to make light, but the overall solution would have to be reverse engineer this and then wedge something in between to respond only with good responses. With that done i'll go hook up my perpetual motion machine:)
Let's say I go to Gamestop and buy a used unit. If I buy into the Live service, and find out the box is banned, does Gamestop have to replace with another unit? This is assuming that it was used with a removeable mod, of course, and that it was removed before Gamestop accepted it, etc., or that its EEPROM was used to reflash another unit.
Also, what good is the Live service if I don't play multi-player games? Do they do any kind of software updates, etc., through the service?
This plural form of the word is well understood and accepted within the geek community.
Eventually it might become accepted into the mainstream, and you might start seeing it in your typical college dictionary.
(That's assuming Xboxes are around long enough for this to occur.)
I think this is great news for all Xbox Live gamers. Personally, I was sold on the idea of Xbox Live because of the broadband only enviroment, and the thought that gaming on a closed system meant there would be less cheating, plus with everyone playing on the same platform there would be no more bitching about having a crappy video card or slow CPU, it leveled the playing field. Of course as someone who pays $50 a year for the service, it upsets me when I get into a game where someone is using cheats when the whole point of paying for the service to me is to have Microsoft step in and remove cheaters and hackers from the service. They are keeping up their end of the bargin, and for that I am thankful. Mind you, I played Counter-Strike for 3 years on and off and was an admin on my own server for half that time, and I could not play a single public game without someone wall-hacking or using an aim-bot. It was especially annoying because I was very fair, and being friends with and having a few professional gamers who played on our server, I knew that just cause someone had 50 kills and 3 deaths that they could just be really good, so I would have to quit out of CS, jump onto our HLTV server and watch the offender in first person until I was absolutly sure he was cheating. This wasted many, many hours of my time, and was the major factor in me getting onto Xbox Live. I think it is cool that you can do so many unintended things by modding an Xbox, but I love that they are kept away from playing on Live and screwing up everyone else's fun.
Does gamestop have to do anything... nope. I think for the sake of their own business though they would. They really need to include live testing before accepting xboxes to protect themselves and their customers.
As for other things you get besides multiplayer, there are several games I know of that have content updates through the live service. Also using the live service you can basically do internet telephony to other live owners through your friends list without a game I believe. Apparently its quite popular in some circles as it is insanely easy to get working.
Apparently, the submitter hasn't been paying attention to anything.
ALL modded XBoxes are not allowed on Live. They NEVER have been allowed on Live.
So, they've improved the detection to tell if your box has been modded. It's really a completely Non-story.
This is the most non-story tripe I've seen on slashdot in a long time, and I've seen a LOT of non-story stuff.
"Champagne for my real friends - and real pain for my sham friends!" http://ericblade.postalboard.com/
Not Doom 3
It's Sound Blaster Live! and XBox Live.
Heh! Complaints about paying for Xbox Live and the right to mod aside, I suspect that the easiest way around the problem is to buy another unmodded (nonmodded??) Xbox! I'm sure Microsoft won't mind at all. ;) Now I know the people here on /. don't want to put any more money in MS's coffers, but remember, MS loses money on every Xbox sold. So if you really hate MS, buy more Xboxes!
To the making of books there is no end, so let's get started
If you want to use their service, use it per their terms. If you don't want to use it, do whatever you want to your XBOX, it's yours after all. Can you really blame Microsoft for not wanting to allow people to use potentially pirated games on their service? They have to make money too. I'm not a huge fan of Microsoft, but what they're doing here makes complete sense. And yes, I realize that modding your XBOX has legitimate uses, but in the long run, most users do this to play games they haven't bought yet, and not to develop the next version of XLinux or whatever programs they put out.
What's it going to take to make the chuckle-heads in Microsoft management realize that open systems are a GOOD thing?
The most popular online game, Counterstrike, wouldn't even exist if it weren't for Valve's encouragement of enthusiasts modding their intellectual property and PUBLICLY DISTRIBUTING THE RESULTS!
Nice try....
IP and MAC addresses work hand in hand REGARDLESS of the media... Ethernet, Token Ring... they all use MAC addresses. IP wouldn't work with out it! The MAC address is used by ARP (Address Resolution Protocol) to resolve the IP address.
First off, I do not have an x-box - and most likly never will - I'll stick with PC...
Nevertheless anyone should be able to mod an x-box and use this on the Live network - why not? It's the software that should not be modified/patched/etc... Lock down the directX drivers and Game files - once thease are locked down you'll not see cheets/hacks/ect... who cares if someone modded the x-box to double as a toaster?
And doesn't get beyond the local network, dumbass. Unless your xbox is on the same subnet as the xbox live servers, then your MAC address has shitall to do with it.
It sould be "modulus xboxii".
For those modders out there.. Anyone ever test setting up an external switch box to allow for semi-manual switching between the original XBOX HD and the new XBOX HD? I dont' recall ever having to deactivate the original, so if i disabled the mod chip and had the original hard drive in, and never had my EEPROM banned... I should be golden, right? Could just run a slightly longer (16" or so) IDE cable out of the xbox, then have an external switch to disable the built-in hard drive. Fire up the good HD and play live, then turn it all off, disconnect the ext. hard drive, switch on the int. hard drive, and play modded games/etc. Possible?
And how are you sure those are locked down with a modded box?
There's no easy way to tell that it can be trusted, so the simple solution is to not trust it.
OK, I respect Microsoft's decision, but what is the competing service that permits Xbox consoles that have been modded and then unmodded, say by a previous owner of the console?
If you want to use their service, use it per their terms.
I don't want to use Microsoft's service, for the same reason I may use, say, Yahoo! instead of MSN.com. What other service is available to replace Xbox Live?
I don't think, as a corporation, Microsoft really particularly HATES anything.
Microsoft, as a corporation, represents its shareholders. Therefore it hates anything that makes the stock price go down, other than perhaps a dividend. Anything that eats heavily into Microsoft's revenue, such as a major retailer dumping Windows for Linux, or consumers shunning Xbox2 for PS3, or people buying Nintendo DS games instead of Pocket PC games, would eat into Microsoft's revenue, might drive down the stock price.
If Microsoft brings an intellectual property suit against me for modding my Xbox someday -- will they also defend me in the same suit, now that I have complete MS-sponsored indemnification from IP suits based on their products?
Try to get the old black ones. The crystal have a different fan and it sounds like a constant low hum. MUCH more annoying than the high whirr actually.
I'll second the Burnout3 choice in single player. Only, too bad they don't propose multi-console LAN play as I really hate split-screen and I'm too cheap to play on Live... What's TV resolutions, something like 400 lines right ? So basically each player gets 200 lines each in split-screen mode, but you're still expected to drive 200mph through traffic-filled streets ? I don't think so !
At least not to accomplish anything meaningful. The source MAC address changes every time the packet goes through a router, so in essence M$ would be blocking anyone and everyone whose last hop was the same as some guy who modded his xbox. Not even Microsoft is that stupid.
I hear Crimson Skies kicks ass online.
You should just ask them if it's a legitimate unit when you buy it. Presumably someone softmodding their Xbox could actually get banned from Live so it's a very real issue. There was a game update through live that provided extra content (forget which) but in general it is only significant for internet play. I believe there are already bridging solutions for Xbox LAN traffic. You could load a new laucher from 007:AuF or from Mechwhatsits and use the Xbox for nefarious purposes like running unsigned code :P If you went on Live that way, your Xbox could be banned permanently. If you sold it to Software Etc., which will not be testing this sort of thing, someone could conceivably end up with your banned Xbox. At this point you would basically have two solutions: One is to email Microsoft and explain the situation and hope they would help you. The other is to go back to the store and see if you can get your money back. What Microsoft should be doing is banning Xbox live accounts, which are more expensive to start up than to continue with, and open all Xbox live accounts by confirming the user's address by mailing them their initial password. Getting a new P.O. Box costs money, and otherwise you can still cancel accounts by watching address reuse.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why not buy an Xbox to use with Live and forget about getting around detection? Who wants Live full of cheaters on hacked xboxes?
Or, the other solution is to figure out a way to automate this process, get a bunch of people with modded Xboxes together, and start rolling through every possible serial number. Get eveyone banned, and force MS to start over. The liberal use of proxies would probably help this a bit.
Necessity is the mother of invention.
Laziness is the father.
I have both a modded xbox, and a regular xbox which i use for xbox live. I have also played many games with tunneling software, mainly halo 1. One thing that I have not seen on any of these is cheating enabled by an xbox being modded. I keep up on most modding news and have never ran in to any article or chat about this working. so the arguements that many of you have that people with modded xbox's getting on to xbox live and ruining the game because they are cheating are pointless.
S.B. - My Lord! Is this legal?
B.G. - I will make it legal.
That doesn't mean that the Application couldn't check the hardware, and transmit it at application layer. I'm not saying that's what they are doing, but the fact that no unique ID is transmitted automatically doesn't prevent that ID from being transmitted. (Whether it is a serial# from the HDD, a PROM, or the MAC address...)
Does this mean that the next time you get banned, your friend (with the same EEPROM number) gets banned too? And wouldn't Microsoft ban you both just for having non-unique numbers?
That's a good idea. I wonder why they don't? I mean, obviously it's the modding itself they're trying to prevent, but... well, all I can think of is that buying a new Xbox is still more expensive than starting a new account, and they want it to have more of a bite for people who do that. Also, people could probably lie and say that someone stole their Live account login information, etc. (I assume the login isn't tied to the one unit, but is a simple username/password?), whereas it's a bit harder to say "my roommate snuck a modchip/hard drive/etc. into my Xbox when I was out."
It seems to me that this is a pretty clear sign Bungie is planning on offering payable downloads. I speculate we'll see Hang 'em High (as well as others) for $5 in the very near future. If they allowed modded boxes onto Live, you'd be able to pull that file off your HD and "share" it with others. By making sure your Xbox is stock, they ensure you actually have to pay for what you get.
Fine by me. As long as they can keep making money by developing new levels, they'll keep churning them out.
=)
:-P
OK. Not really Greek -- VAX xomputers in plural became VAXen over the years. This might have been attributable to international usage.
So now for some reason the pluralization of things ending in 'x' seems to have become *xen.
I know the VAXen goes back to at leat the early 90's when I first heard it.
I'm sure someone could post some really cool links with the word origin.
Lost at C:>. Found at C.
"Brian, what is the plural of box?
... Boxen.
No, no. Brian, what is the plural of moose?
... MOOSEN! Many much moosen in the woodsen -- woodsuh! Woodsenisen!"
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? Because if you do, I'm sure that dozens of corporations would like to hear your ideas on "locking things down" without guaranteeing that the hardware is secure.
I also think that a good many computer scientists, IT people and engineers would be thrilled to hear your discovery, considering that such a thing is widely considered to be completely impossible.
If you have a X-box what else are you playing besides Halo?
Halo 2?
What if some one wardial style spams live with eprom id's on a modded xbox rendering all xbox banned? :)
Good bye Live, Hello KAI.
oh wait, goodbye Live was over a year ago for most people
-- The box said Windows 2000 or better... so I installed Linux
Remember a long time ago when people bitched about modded systems, saying that "It doesn't affect anyone else, its our property, fair use, etc?"
Well, by running a modded system on the Live network, their security is potentially breached. Sorry, but that easily has the potential to affect other people.
Would you pay to play on a service where people cheat and wipe the floor with even the most hardened veteran of ?
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
Use of the -en suffix on an English word to sound cool is nerdery of the saddest degree.
oh, the language pattern was borrowed long ago, it's more like a poor attempt to regularize irregular english constructions like oxen.
This is getting into a kind of grey area. The XBox live service is probing your XBox, to find out if you have a mod chip. Is it ethical for SW and services to probe your system like this?
Furthermore, what is next in the scheme of things. They want to stop modding. Do they next find ways to permenately prevent users on modded xboxes from playing any games, even if they are not online?
I would normally say, that this would be a far stretch of things, but this is Microsoft, their business practices have never been very ethical.
Does gamestop have to do anything... nope.
That is not nearly as cut-and-dried as you make it sound. There is a legal, implicit warranty with any commercial transaction. If you read through the GPL, you'll find a section that talks about "the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose", that's what it's talking about. The GPL can get away with disclaiming this implied warranty because no money changes hands, but Gamestop is selling a product so they must honor it.
The point I'm trying to make is that if Gamestop sells you a defective X-box, then they are legally obligated to fix it, exchange it, or refund you if you ask them to. It's not just bad for business if they don't, it's illegal. It comes down to whether "banned from Live" qualifies an X-box as defective. I would argue that it does, but it's not completely clear either way.
Mod down posts with a "Free Mac Mini/iPod" sig, they're spam!