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Microsoft Says Firefox Not a Threat to IE
KillaKen187 writes "A CNET article claims that 'just days after the launch of open-source browser Firefox 1.0, Microsoft executives defended Internet Explorer, saying it is no less secure than any other browser and doesn't lack any important features.' It's also interesting to note that these statements made by Steve Vamos, Microsoft Australia's managing director, come with no knowledge of what Firefox has to offer as he admits not even installing or using Firefox."
From the CNET article:
English reiterated that features such as tabbed browsing are not important to IE users.
You can mark my word that IE will have tabbed browsing within 12 months from now.
He says if consumers wanted more features, they'd tell Microsoft, using the example of tabbed browsing. I would argue that if consumers knew what features they wanted, that would be true - but innovative features have to be created somewhere. Sounds like someone's got a bad case of the NIH syndrome to me ...
How can he say FF is not a threat if he hasn't even downloaded and installed it?
Many friends I know were reluctant about installing another weird name browser until I do it for them, and from then onwards IE is history
Online backup with Mozy, sounds like Ozzie, but more!
Microsoft executives defended Internet Explorer, saying it is no less secure than any other browser and doesn't lack any important features.
I only hope that the mangement at Microsoft continues to believe this statement for the forseeable future. Nothing could help Firefox more.
And tell me... where is this address where users let Microsoft know what features they really want?
No more of this quote. Please. Ever.
Both sides ignore and laugh at each other anyway. Who wins?
if Microsoft's customers wanted new features, they would have told the company about it.
Because the customers are user interface engineers who know exactly what will make their experience better, right?
They can just keep repeating that they aren't afraid just to reassure themselves and their business partners. The statement that IE is not less, secure, well, is known false. The security is compromised the same moment they integrated the browser into the OS so tightly. Btw, the mere fact that they react on firefox shows its effect on the market. I think in the future firefox will steadily get a nice share of the browser market, when more and more users learn about its features. IE is just an ancient application, deprecated, and insecure (CERT says so, not me, before someone starts accusing me).
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
Yeah, how dare Slashdotters have different opinions about things?!
Of course they're going to play it down. It should be expected.
Ignorance kills, complacency kills, hatred kills, but usually not the ones guilty of them.
You don't have to install Firefox or use it to know what features it has. It's called reading or talking to someone who Has used it. I don't see how he can be criticized for this. Everything else is fair game, of course.
free online diet tracking.
Repton.
They say that only an experienced wizard can do the tengu shuffle.
Honestly, even if Microsoft were to take hints from Mozilla and implement tabs, extentions, skinning, and png support, and make their browser bug free (heh ok, that is going a little far) people would still criticize them, just for being Microsoft. And I bet a fair share of those that would be criticizing the new browser would refuse to try it as well. :P
How much more blantant could Microsoft be in saying they are not really an innovator?
"If you don't ask for it - we can't think of it!"
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
Today, we have someone from Microsoft who says they haven't installed Firefox. This is decried as shameful -- how dare he criticize the application if he hasn't tried it?
/.ers have posted. The point is not that, "Oh, here's a Microsoft user who hasn't installed Firefox." Big deal. No, the point is that here we have a software executive who's making public statements, assuring people about the competitiveness of his product against a contender that he hasn't even TRIED.
I think you're probably missing the point of the criticisms other
This are the tactics of a desperate but incompentant person. The fact that this article came out at all shows that Microsoft is "taking" the threat very seriously, and yet they're not TREATING seriously by actually doing their homework on Firefox. Duh...
They say IE is a target because it's everywhere, not because it has holes. Well then, Apache is everywhere. Why don't we hear about a new buffer overflow or mishandled JPG in Apache every two weeks?
Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
Too many sites still require IE/ActiveX to function properly. Vistaprint.com comes to mind. I always make it a point to write and/or call when I encounter a site that doesn't work and let them know it's "broken", and that they're about to lose a customer since I refuse to use IE.
On the other hand, when I encounter a site that supports Firefox and encourages its use (Wells Fargo, for instance) I always send an email to whoemver contacts I can find praising their decision to support a more secure browser.
The more people that do this, the faster IE can be banished forever.
you cant really expect a browser to take over a the browser share when every windows computer has an IE icon one click away..
people seem to think its some sort of fair fight and that since firefox is a better browser that its going to win over the masses, but it'll never happen because its not a level playing field
its cool when you're at work and you're "not allowed to install software". In these sorts of scenario its cool because:
IE = no software installed
Mozilla/firefox = software installation
why would you want your employees installing new browsers when theres already one?
im not saying firefox should give up.. its badass and I used it.. but its no real threat to IE
In echo chambers atop ivory towers across the world, monopolists fear nothing their yesmen haven't told them.
--
make install -not war
Could it be Firefox is more secure than IE because millions of people haven't tried to pwned it yet?
So I guess, yeah, it's not really a threat to IE in terms of risk vs. market share.
I'd like to nominate Ben English and Steve Vamos for this years Iraqi Information Minister Award!
Microsoft will tell you there is no such award but I can assure you there is. In fact they've already won the award many times and Bill Gates has many on display on his desk.
Most people don't care because they don't realize there is even a problem with IE. They are the same people that don't know that their computer is full of spyware and other sorts of malware.
They don't see a problem, they don't even realize they have a choice when it comes to browsers. They just use IE because that is what is on their desktop by default.
I would argue that if consumers knew what features they wanted, that would be true - but innovative features have to be created somewhere.
The Minivan almost didn't get made because all the market surveys said noone wanted a minivan and "noone had ever asked for one".
Iococca ignored the marketing department and the rest is history.
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Or standards-compliant CSS rendering. You know, stuff like getting the fucking box model right and implementing at least FUCKING CSS 1 DAMMIT.
Sorry, forgot to take my pills. I'm off to the nurse.
Who is General Failure and why is he reading my hard disk?
It appears Microsoft sees IE as a way for people to access websites, whereas the Moz team sees the browser as a way for the user to get to information, with built in rss readers and integrated search engines. That's also why moz tries to render so many specs defined by w3c, they want to display whatever information you can throw at it. I'm just waiting for people to start building P2P and bittorrent interfaces for firefox.
So far I am sickly blown away by firefox. I figured by now, I would have some temptation to float back to IE, but nope. The only thing lacking (IF MOZILLA FOLKS ARE READING) is the bookmark management. Which is so hard to deal with in html format compared to the way IE has it all in a folder, and you are just moving folders in and out. Granted the bookmark management thing is compatible for every OS. It still seem slow compared to any native windows system explorer or file manager in linux.
The vast majority of people simply don't know what a program is, what an operating system is, what a CPU is or whatever... The real reason why Firefox is not a threat is because People Are Dumb.
I'm a programmer by trade, and I know all of these things, and I use Firefox. Am I dumb? Apparently not.
I know nothing about motor mechanics; if my car develops a fault, I take it to a garage. Am I dumb now?
I know nothing about building. If I needed an extension built, or a wall knocked through, or whatever, I'd go to a builder. Am I dumb now?
I know nothing about teaching. I may know the subject, but I know nothing about planning and preparing lessons, setting homework, or keeping a class full of students interested and engaged. Am I dumb now?
Because by extending your reasoning to other fields, I am, and so are you, and everyone else here.
People here need to stop being so elitist, and denigrating people just because they know less about computers than some arbitrarily determined minimum level below which the person must be "dumb".
It's official. Most of you are morons.
People are dumb?
My uncle is a PHD in Physcial Education, Business Adminsitration, Philosphy and more, travelled the word advising in various counties (Malaysia, Turkey, USA) on such things as setting up Universities.
He is now retired - and quite frankly is not interested in become a POWER USER. So damn right he wants to be told what he wants.
He is quite happy that he can browser the internet, do video editing and do letter writing.
I may well approach him with some great new feature, but I really don't think that it is going to change his "exprience" enough to be worth the time to explain why he should change.
Firefox has a Google Toolbar. The fact that you don't know this proves your ignorance. You're encouraging "poorly written web pages" to stay that way. You are a part of the problem.
I've been a long time IE user. Personally I've never had the problems with IE that others have had because I sat down and learned how to setup and use IE from the start. I memorized the operation of every last setting under the Tools->Internet Options dialog and adjusted them accordingly. I learned how to browse as securely as possible while watching what IE does very closely. Of course I'm not your average browser. Almost every setting I could find is set to prompt me, as I enjoy absolute control over things. This also alerts me to how complex some websites are in their attempt to invade your privacy. Just watching all the dialogs pop up for scripting and ActiveX is amazing. Also the hitbox'es, doubleclicks, and adtechs are really annoying.
Yesterday I downloaded and installed FireFox 1.0. I wanted to look at it and find out if it would suit me better since I still consider IE to be a little too proprietary in that it hides what it really does. So I am looking for something a bit more open.
After looking at all the features of FireFox I was amazed at how few things it allowed me to adjust. It doesn't have any of the options I am used to using under IE. Here are a few...
* Changing the temporary cache path?
* No option to clear cache when done?
* Inability to prompt me if I want scripts to run?
* Prompted cookie setting control?
* Inline images are either on or off. Eg, no ability to prevent animations (gif or otherwise) from running.
(This is frustrating. I want to see the original images, but I absolutely hate animations of any sort.)
* No Zones feature so that I can configure certain security options for certain sites.
* Installed security is to save passwords, allow web sites to install software, save form information, and Java is enabled?
(Of course IE is probably even more open, but the point is that FireFox is supposed to be secure right?)
* Many other configuration options are missing that would allow me to be prompted if I want to execute or do something.
I notice that tabbed browsing ends up using even more desktop real estate. I've never needed tabbed browsing before, all my windows appear on my Explorer task bar...just like tabs. I suppose tabs would be useful for people whos operating systems don't have a taskbar enabled shell.
Other that than the above observations I found Firefox to work fine. It didn't crash at all, but was a bit slower to render than IE. Only once did it redirect me to a website I did not type in the URL for. I just shut it down and restarted to fix that problem.
I find that I don't think I'll be switching just yet because of the inability to actively control scripting and the in-line image problem. If those issues are taken care of in the future, I don't know why I would stay with IE. Until then.
+1
Most computer users can be compared to motorists that ore of the level "I put the key in and turn it, then it goes". The only difference is that with respect to computers, there is a much higher percentage of these users.
it is only after a long journey that you know the strength of the horse.
It's also interesting to note that these statements made by Steve Vamos, Microsoft Australia's managing director, come with no knowledge of what Firefox has to offer as he admits not even installing or using Firefox.
Not.. really..
He probably doesn't have time to. He probably relies on analysts and employees to give him a summary of whether or not there are differing features. This is, dare I say, common?
I mean, sure, it's not the MOST informed he could be, but in the end this is just another ridiculous inflammatory anti-MS quote that's probably just going to slip under people's "common sense" radar - and it will do so for precisely the same thing most people hate MS for: blind arrogance towards its competition.
Moo
If a few good uses of XUL can become widespread over the next six months or so, it has a good chance to take a hold before XAML can squash it
Eh, how many times already has Microsoft been second to market, but eventually squashed the competition by marketing? Off the top of my head I can think of Windows, Windows networking (WfW 3.11), IE, Excel and Word.
My Karma: ran over your Dogma
StrawberryFrog
If you drive your car into a tree because you don't know how to steer, you are dumb
If your car comes to a halt because you don't know to put gas in it, you are dumb.
If you cause a lot of damage to your car because you burn it out because you never replace the oil, you are dumb.
There is a certain minimal skill and intelligence level required to simply drive and maintain a car safely. Most people have it.
There is a certain minimal skill and intelligence level required to simply operate and maintain a computer safely. Most people don't seem to want to get it
It's more a matter of ignorance than stupidity. People don't know that running an OS without a firewall or some sort of basic protection from the outside world, or browsing random sites with a exploited browser is equivalent to parking your car downtown and leaving the keys in the ignition. It will take time, but eventually the youth of today will be the better users of tomorrow. Sure, there's always going to be buttheads, but they're the bread and butter of the IT industry :)
...it's just that geeks are just wired differently in the brain--we have different thought processes than normal "dumb people". Artsy types are also wired differently in the brain than normal people. While geeks and artsy types are usually polar opposites (left brained vs right brained, etc) they share common characteristics (much like how communist and facist dictatorships do in the political space). One such trait is the continual search for new and different ways of doing things--there is both left-brained and right-brained creativity.
Most people are in the "mushy middle"--they aren't dumb it's just that their intelligence is just spread out a bit more and are thus not quite as "creative" or curious. The average "mushy middle" person has the benefit of being more socially adjusted but is also a creature of habit and is not easily driven to deviate from his comfort zone unless circumstances make things annoying enough to disturb that comfort. This is the only theory I've been able to come up with explaining why IE and Outlook have been allowed to rot and fester and continue to enjoy market dominance even in the face of free competition.
It isn't a name thing as much as it is good marketing or else Excel would've flopped because it didn't have "Calc" or "Spreadsheet" in the name. Excel was part of the Office juggernaut and is now market leader so out of habit now "Excel==Spreadsheet". Hell, when I started in university the school had just implemented WWW directories on student's accounts so they could have home pages and I know for the first little while people would say "look at the Mosaic page I made"!
Things are changing though because "mushy middle" is becoming uncomfortable. They are afraid of the WWW and their inbox because the news and the experts are telling them it is swimming with nasties that will corrupt their machines, spy on them and steal their account numbers. Even mainstream media is now starting to emphasise "windows" and "internet explorer". That is enough to get them thinking. They are very easy sells when they become vicims one too many times.
Anyway, to help the creature of habit with the conversion, I install Firefox and Thunderbird, and use "Set Program Access and Defaults" to remove the icons for IE and Outlook in addition to setting the Mozilla counterparts to the default clients. Furthermore, I rename the Mozilla icons to the generic "Web Browser" and "Email". This has resulted in a pretty much universally positive reception. I believe it would be second nature for people to click on "the fox" and "the bird" if that's what they learned to do from the start, or have done it long enough.
would be "Steve Vamos, Microsoft Australia's managing director, come with no knowledge of what the competition has to offer as he admits not even installing or using"
Seriously... How can you be a succesful product manager if you're not aware of what the competition is doing?
I can't believe this guy is in the position he's in with statements like that, much less keeping that position after such an admission.
An UNINSTALLER!!!
(unless there is some other feature that IE lacks and other browsers have).
Security?
It's best to learn to adapt quickly to changes, bugs and exploits when dealing with Microsoft, otherwise find and use something different. One can only hope that sooner or later most people will realize that stuff like FireFox (which works, is safe and is free) is sometimes better than the alternative.
How can he say FF is not a threat if he hasn't even downloaded and installed it?
:)
Well, clearly it isn't.
At least to him
Be happy that some people in M$ still don't see it as a threat. If everyone in M$ thought that firefox was going to destroy their desktop dominance for the browser... it might get a little tougher for mozilla.org.
Better that they don't know.
Michael
There is no cryptographic solution to the problem where the intended receiver and the attacker are the same entity.
I would personally call not installing unknown software equivalent to learning to guage an oncoming car's relative direction to yours and judging if it will collide or not.
There are a LOT of learned skills in driving - from assessing the feedback through the wheel, judging your inner ear, etc - things we just don't think about because we do them every day now. Computers have similar tasks, which people don't care to learn because they won't die if they fuck up.
This analogy works to a certain extent. However, if you drive Car A, are constantly breaking down, have security problems because they didn't put glass in all of the windows and the doors don't lock, doesn't THAT make you dumb when you won't get rid of it and drive a car with glass in the windows and locking doors?
I think the point is that the SysAdmin need to provide "Do Diligence" before supplying any patch to their "customers".
Microsoft should also provide a level of diligence. Since MS does have access to every customised application you care to use, then it goes down the line to the software providers to ensure their applications do work.
The hard fact is; customers will assume that the application is the problem not the operating system.
I actually did this to my parent-in-laws machine. However they noticed that it was a different browser (Firefox needs an IE look-alike skin as well). And then they figured out that the Windows Update link (which had to be left as IE) was "the old browser" and if they hit stop, they had their old browser.
At this point I decided to refuse any future requests for tech support.
The computer knowledge & skills required to make an informed decision about what web browser to use are a few steps beyond basic knowledge for operating things safely.
And I think that cars are still mystical things for many people. Scads of folks are still putting premium gasoline in cars that are designed for 87 octane because they think it will give them better performance/fuel economy.
Maybe dumb is too strong of a word.... I can't say whether you are dumb, but perhaps uninformed would be more appropriate.
I am an entrepreneur by trade. I currently run an insurance claim processing company.
I know little about cars, but that didn't stop me from managing an auto repair shop for about a year. If my car develops a fault, I take it to a garage, but I know what to ask for.
I know little about building... but my house burned to the ground 2 years ago, and in another 3 or 4 months, I'll be just about done re-building it. Other than the plumbing and electricity, I did most of the work (with the help of family and friends) on my own.
I know little about teaching, but that didn't stop me from volunteering to teach just about every elementary and high school subject at my local community center.
By the way, I knew nothing about insurance claim processing when I first started that business. It's doing well enough to pay my bills and leave some money left over. Before that, I ran a web services/software company. I had it merged into a publicly traded service company. I majored in International Relations in college.
I can't say that the original poster is being elitist; I don't think I am elitist, but I am often frustrated with people's lack of information, pleathora of mis-information, and general reluctance to explore new concepts.
i want to live life, not just go through the motions
Steve, you might want to know what the competitor offers before you say it isn't a threat. You may be talking about market share today, but tomorrow you will be playing catch up (eg: search engine).
you forget something. IE is much much better for administrators when it comes to policy profiles, user security deployment and all that. Mozilla or FireFox are good stand-alone products but they still need better ways to make life easier in corporate environment.
Some slashdotters razzed him for it.
This is decried as shameful
And no, even if this situation were as you said it, that's not a catch 22. Maybe you should read Catch 22.
Malike Bamiyi wanted my assistance.
You do realise that slashdot is made up of a bunch of distinct people, each with their own opinions and beliefs?? How the hell did you get moderated up??
And what the heck, I use opera too, only use firefox to access gmail, and don't even really need it for that now.
The best idea is to fool the users. Keep the E icon for Internet Explorer, but have it point to the Firefox executable. That's idiot-proofing.
;)
A friend of mine who is in charge of a bookstore had a similiar experience. He installed Firefox on all the machines, then deleted all the shortcuts and references to Internet Explorer. Shortly after, he had employees asking him where IE was, despite an icon on the desktop that clearly read "Mozilla Firefox Web Browser".
Eventually, some users would go back and find ways to run IE (whether through MS Word or Start -> Run). They spent more time trying to find/"reinstall" the IE rather than simply starting Firefox, simply because they were too scared to try a new program!
Finally, he kept all the IE links and icons, but changed the executable to point to Firefox. No complaints since then.
The main thing is that people are stubborn and too timid to bother learning a new program. I guess it can be an intimidating thing, so I don't blame them. Ultimately, I think we'll get a decent market share, it will just take time. It's taken a bit of prodding, but I've eventually gotten many of my friends and even my parents to switch to Firefox exclusively.
Lets see though how many features are missing from internet explorer? Tabbed browsing ? Popup Blocking? decent standards compliancy?
-Tabbed browsing
Overhyped feature. If I hear this one more time i'm going to explode. It is well organized but I don't consider [ctrl]-tab that much easier than [alt]-tab or [windows]-tab.
-Popup blocking
This *IS* in WindowsXP
-decent standards compliancy
Depends on your point of view. Not displaying pages designed for IE properly is not a good thing.
I am amazed at how old fashioned, lacklustre and dated the whole experience is.
I could say the same thing about Mozilla. It looks kinda like Netscape with a hint of Mosaic. In other words an older product.
Most of the alternative browsers these days have far more to offer than IE
Let me guess... Tabbed browsing? It's the future.
If Microsoft really beleive that Firefox is not a huge improvement on IE they must be just plain dumb.
It's attitudes like this that are the reasons more people don't try Mozilla. No one likes a software fanatic esp. one encouraging others to change the way they have been doing things for years. I've heard it all from Mac geeks, OS2 Geeks, BeOS geeks, and dare I say Netscape Geeks. I've been using Mozilla for about a year but you managed to devalue my opinion on it. I'm running a web browser that when someone makes one little comment about a feature someone else has they take it like a personal attack on their religion and the crusaders rise up to defend the holy grail of tabbed browsing.
Mozilla IS a good product. Because cross platform support is its corner stone some OS specific features may not be included. This is a fact and no one is dumb or stupid for pointing this out, not even Redmond. That is what you should point out, not fucking tabbed browsing.
Of the features of Mozilla I like least of all is the army of minions from the depths of hell that pop up chanting like a bunch of Warcraft orcs "Uhhhh, tabbed browsing" when ever someone is the slightest bit critical of the product they have swore to defend.
Before you moderate, take a good look. This IS a flame on those bucket heads who can't pull anything better out of their arse than tabbed browsing. Please moderate accordingly, thank you.
You are sure living up to your nick, dipshit. What's your point? That you have to know how to fix cars and do home renovations to be considered a "hacker"? You may have a few simple, manual skills, but I've forgotten more about math, physics and EE than you'll ever know, and I have the degrees to prove it, as well as being a top-notch programmer. Does that make me a "real" hacker? Apparently not, because I value my time enough to get builders and mechanics to do the work instead. In economics, it's called comparative advantage.
In conclusion, fuck you and fuck your elitist, pretentious, macho bullshit.
Why do you think that having people believe that Firefox is Internet Explorer is a good thing? All you end up with are people who think that IE is better than it is, and perhaps a bit upset that their home version isn't as good.
G
Some people are just stubborn to change, even if it's good change. A tech-saavy friend of mine introduced me to Mozilla a few years ago, saying that it was far superior to IE. Eventually, though, he drifted back to IE, citing all the little things about Mozilla that annoyed him.
;D
Now I'm using Firefox--a browser which has everything Internet Explorer has and fixed all the little problems with Mozilla my friend complained about. Yet, when I tell him what's been fixed he continues to find new problems with Firefox--little things, like "this button is in the wrong place," or the non-descript, "I just... I don't know." Heck, he'll even clog up his Windows tray with tens of instances of IE instead of using tabbed browsing!
Really, some people just don't care about having a better browser; they like IE because they've had it for years and are afraid or too set in their ways to switch. Even if every installation of Firefox came with a complimentary $20 check some people would still turn their nose and use IE--that's just how they are.
And as long as IE is installed with Windows it will continue to have some ground in the browser wars... but that's another topic.
You forgot to mention the most important thing: Did you contact the bank and inform them that their web app only works on IE?
Sites, especially banking sites (read: conservative sites), won't improve unless they get enough feedback to do so.
.: Max Romantschuk
No. By promoting the message that ActiveX is safe to use, YOU are jeopardizing your ability to make a living. All the FF and Moz fans are doing is pointing out that the Emperor is buck nekkid and far too flabby to protect your customers interests.
We've actually discussed this a lot on the Mozilla college reps mailing list, and we pretty much decided that it was a bad idea, since what use is it to get people using Firefox when they don't know they're using anything different? If they think they're still using Internet Explorer, they're not going to go home and download Firefox or even know what it is. All doing that would really do is get people confused when they click on a familiar icon and an unfamiliar icon appears. The best way is to just show people the new features. I converted my brother easily by him seeing me use it. That's the only way we're going to get and keep users.
>> Go check out the Secunia reports.
>> In the last six months, Firefox has had
>> as many vulnerabilities as IE
Cool.. so your saying that Firefox when being developed (pre-1.0) had the same number of vulnerabilities as Internet Explorer, a browser developed for 9+ years by the largest software company in the world and the company is working under a "security as priority" policy for the past 2.5 years.
Not only that, but the latest version of Internet Explorer (6.0) has been getting the holes patched for the past umm.. 3+ years? AND its intergrated with Windows so people are PAYING MONEY for this browser, it has less features, less standards compliance, etc.. and the BEST you can come up with is a pre-release version of a FREE, community developed browser with more features has the same number of security issues over the past 6 months?
Fantastic.
There is no need to prove the superiority of Firefox. The only thing you need to do is to link terrorism with IE, paint IE as creation by godless entity, while Firefox is used by US government and US army in the fight against terrorists, protect US against evil, if necessary put a cross on the head of the fox, Now 51 million people will use firefox.
Maybe he just thinks like I do?
I'm giving you free tech support, you'll use the program I tell you to so that I don't have to come back here every second day to clean spyware off your computer or I'm not supporting you any longer.
If they complain, I'll put everything back to IE and when they call me because their computer is slow as hell and generally fscked over from spyware I remind them that I'm not supporting them any longer, and tell them that will fix it for $X.
ND
This statement is forty-five characters long.
I've worked as a tech support agent (on the phone) for over 4 years now and one thing i figured out is that people is not STUPID. They are COMPUTER IGNORANTS which is very different, believe me, once you teach them how to do something they'll never forget (unless it's a really complicated thing for them like changing TCP/IP settings).
What firefox needs is a new name like "Firefox Internet Navigator" and to execute a tutorial on how to use it on the first run.
Just my $0.02
My bet, though, is that Microsoft are going to take back the lead. They are used to being laughed at, and when they have a product that lags sufficiently behind in public opinion, they usually make it a priority to take back the lead.
What people *should* be thinking of is what Microsoft will do to lock in customers and how this threat can be met.
in a wider perspective; is Miguel the piper leading all the children of the open source into the river? will Microsoft unleash IP-litigation on a scale never seen before? will it be at all possible to tell the users that Microsoft's wet dreat is to forever in the darkness bind them...to their products.
Da Vinci was probably one of the smartest human beings in history. He did both things he needed to do for money (like we all do) and what interestead him.
Intreset is the key, learning about things takes time. I know about computers, becuase they interest me. I know all sorts of histroy and science triva, because it interests me. I know little about cars and DIY becuase they don't. You see, time spent learning these things is time lost to me doing I something I don't enjoy. I value my time so I choose to spend my money having someone else do it.
I choose to remain ignorant about these things, becuase I can. You know what? I don't care about it being "unforgivable" in your eyes. There is too much in life for any human being to do, so choosing to prioritse your time, placing a value on it, is the only sensible course.
If you enjoyed the various activies you have done, great, good for you. Saving money though isn't always everyone's priority, sometimes circumstances may force people there.
"The main thing is that people are stubborn and too timid to bother learning a new program".
Indeed.
All the more "interesting" then that IE squashed Netscape like a bug during the browser wars.
I wish at was Friday, but I dont want to wish my life away. So I wish it was last Friday.
"It is not elitest to say someone is far from well rounded."
No, it's a fairly mealy way of saying that they're dumb in a way that they may not understand immediately. Being well-rounded, or diversifying in your interests and behaviours to the point where you can do almost anything is a couple of steps higher on Maslow's hierarchy than most people get; you should be applauded for your achievements, but at the same time understand that you are not _average_ by any stretch of the imagination.
Further to that the vast majority of people using computers out there do not have an interest in them. They want to know about the stuff on the internet, but not about the internet.
"It is, however, unforgivable for a person to *choose* to remain ignorant."
Now that is elitist. For one thing people don't necessarily choose ignorance as the direction of their life, and may not believe that Gilbert & Sullivan are anything more than a couple of old guys. To decry a person on the pleasures that they maintain is to completely misunderstand humanity as a whole.
"Computer People need to expand thier world to other things"
You'd be surprised by the breadth of knowledge shown by 'Computer People' over the age of 24. After you've mastered the basics, it leaves a lot of room for other things.
"Specialization is the autobaun to obsoletion."
You do know that 'species'...oh, never mind.
Generalisation means you never achieve true competence. Mention that around the next Vineyard you visit, as you'll find that they're extremely specialised.
"Leonardo Da Vinci never announced "I'm an artist, what do I care about engineering?""
He also never said 'Midgets make me laugh'. What conclusion are we to draw from that?
"Trust me, DIY projects will save you loads of cash and are not difficult to master."
But building an extension is a different matter to covering a hole in sheetrock. America appears to do much better in this regard than countries that like their buildings to consist of more than one storey, brick construction and have foundations, but I'm guessing that you still have building codes to adhere to.
"The most satisfying project I have completed are the two walk-in closets in my master bedroom"
Congratulations on mastering stud partitioning. I'm sure that you can comfortably create your next dwelling.
Oddly Draconis
Too cynical to live, too stubborn to die.
"If a luser is too thick skulled to figure out what a web browser is, then they deserve to be stuck with IE."
Actually, if a user is too thick skulled to figure out what a web browser is, he should never ever access his bank account through his computer *for his own benefit* because he is not able to maintain a minimal secure environment to do so.
Seriously, I don't mean this as putting anyone down - using a computer to access his bank account is simply way too dangerous *to him*.
Gilad.
about time we changed that mozilla logo to firefox, isn't it?
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IE didn't compete with Netscape.
IE arrived on every computer, was installed with every Windows OS and had it's icon shoved onto the desktop whether you wanted it or not. (In fact, it was difficult to get it OFF the desktop early.)
Corporate IT groups standardized on IE because "it comes with the OS" and they didn't want to pay for and install a different browser.
Heck, MS had to threaten to revoke Compaq's OEM license (at the time they were the #1 PC seller) to get them to stop installing Netscape.
The fact is that MS "competed" by outspending Netscape, giving their product away for "free", paying bounties to ISP's and IAP's, threatening OEM's, and "leveraging the Window's asset" all in an effort to "cut off Netscape's air supply".
So no, it's not interesting at all.
--- I wish I could hear the soundtrack to my life. That way I'd know when to duck.
That sort of ideal doesn't really work in the real world. Our clients use IE, as does about 94% of their customers. While I personally still write web standard code, I have to write CSS and HTML that is a lot more complex to make sure it works on IE. It would take a lot less time if everything worked like Firefox or Safari, but the client is paying the bills. They don't care about our nobel goal of making obsolete browsers shrink into the background. Heck, they don't care about version numbers either. I'd be happy just to get rid of IE 5.5 users.
:P
The point is, the client pays the bills, which pays my pay check, which gives me food, shelter, and video games. If you call that coddling, you must be independently wealthy. Of course we code for IE. Just don't do it on your personal site.
InstantCool
So let me get this straight - you swapped out an old program (IE) for a new one (Firefox) without telling your relative. Why? I'm going to assume it's because you knew that your relative didn't know much about computers & you were afraid that he wouldn't let you do it if you were straight with him. It appears that the new program didn't work for your relative (he had specific needs, and it didn't meet them), so he asked you to undo whatever it was that you'd done. You tried to walk him through the process, but he didn't understand what you were asking him to do (remember, this guy is so computer illiterate that you had to replace IE with Firefox using subterfuge), so you had to go over & "fix" his computer so he could use the old program. Lets say that you called you cousin to help you with a car problem. The next time you drove the car, it died at a stop sign - in fact, it died every time the tach went below 1000. you called you cousin to ask him why, and he told you that he had replaced your old engine with one that was far superior. When you told him that the new engine was dying, he said "well yeah, that happens at low RPM's, but the improvements more than make up for it." Unconvinced, you ask him to fix it. He tries to explain how easy it is for you to swap out the engines & put the old one back in - he even left the cherry picker & the old engine in your garage, so it shouldn't take much time or effort. Finally you convince him to come over & put the old engine back in your car. He does so, but he leaves feeling bitter, because he was trying to help you & all you wanted was your crummy old engine back in the car. Trying to help someone is fine, but not everyone wants "help", and you have to be prepared to undo what you've done. I really like Firefox - and Linux, for that matter - but I realize that not everyone wants the same things that I do. You feel bitter towards your relative? You should be thankful - he should have punched you in the mouth.
you'd be surprised but even with windows "totally" locked down the word open box is like running explorer. especially in recent versions it can be used to lauch executables of choice and browse the local system. (click on recent documents then try going up a level or a few till you reach c: then right click on a folder and click explore!)
going slightly back on topic i dont think its that people are timid or scared of learning a program but that when they are taught computers they are told not what to do but how to do it. As a result they have no idea what they are doing most of the time and if something doesnt work they wont know what to do as it goes outside the concrete world of what they know is going to happen. People rarely feel like they are in control of the computer
Just the other day my mum was stuck in thunderbird, she wanted her sent items to be saved in the sent items folder related to her account, not the local folders one. She went through all the options in the menus but didnt find what she was looking for because she didnt realise that there was more than one screen on "account settings" as she had never been told. People need to be taught why they do the things they do and how the computer works, not just send them to use a list of steps that accomplish one thing while they cautiously click around a world of incomprehensabele jargon. we often forget that words like "firefox", "browser" or "toolbar" mean nothing to most people.
How many computers are too many?
Sorry, no. She's stupid. And so are all these other users that the previous poster said weren't stupid. They are.
They're stupid not because they're ignorant (which they also are). They're stupid because they refuse to learn. That's stupid.
I'm not saying it's stupid to refuse to learn just anything, like string theory when your profession is teaching English. But refusing to learn about the tools you use every single day to do important tasks that you depend on to live is stupid. Refusing to educate yourself about alternatives that may make your life much easier, especially when other people more knowledgable than you have recommended these alternatives, is stupid.
Suppose you're buying a new car, and your old car is a Chevy and has given you nothing but trouble and cost you a fortune in repairs. Would you ignore all other brands out there, refuse to do any research about other brands and models, and simply go to the same Chevy dealership you got your last lemon from and buy another Chevy from the same salesman that screwed you on the last car? Any person like this is stupid. They can claim all they want that they're not car experts, don't know about cars, etc., but no one's asking them to build the thing. It's a tool you need to function in society, and refusing to educate yourself about which products will best serve you is absolutely stupid. The same is true with computers and software tools.
As for this person who refuses to learn to use a TV, that's stupid too. She doesn't need to become an expert on every function and learn to use picture-in-picture, zoom in on DVDs, program the TiVO to record various shows, etc. But to be so helpless that she can't even turn on the TV to her favorite channel and watch it without help, even when someone is showing her how, that's stupid.
I'm sick and tired of all you apologists claiming people aren't stupid. They are. Not all IE users are stupid: maybe a few have tried Opera, Firefox, etc., and found that they don't work with their crappy intranet sites with Active-X controls or whatever, and thus are forced to stay with IE. But all the people who simply refuse to try anything different, despite the constant problems with IE, are stupid.
Bottom line: refusing to learn to do simple things that can greatly simplify or improve your life is stupid.
Bottom line: refusing to learn to do simple things that can greatly simplify or improve your life is stupid.
Wasting all your time learning a never-ending stream of technologies is pretty goddamn stupid too.
Look, unless you are an IT professional, it shouldn't be necessary to keep learning software interfaces. There's nothing life-simplifying about having to constantly change the way you check your email simply because a bunch of companies can't make simple, consistent interfaces.
Let's say you are a lawyer. You're pretty busy keeping up with the law. You've learned a procedure for using the Internet. Maybe it isn't perfect, but it works. Now are you stupid not to put in the effort to learn how to use Firefox because some guy tells you IE is not secure? Most people haven't had the experience of knowing what insecure software even means, so why should they take their valuable time to respond to such an abstract threat?
Until Microsoft starts putting Firefox on the desktop, this isn't going to change. People seek the path of least resistance not because they are stupid, but because they have priorities.
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Interfaces have everything to do with it, and if you think Firefox and IE have the same interface, then you are the dummy. For the vast majority of the public, the interface is the computer -- not the hard drive, not the RAM, not the installer that they have to download and run in order to use Firefox. Until someone invents a computer that allows people to simply ask it, in English, whether there is any way they could be more secure, you can't expect non-computer people to break the metaphor and start tinkering with the internals.
You talk as though browsers and cars are analagous, but to most people the computer is analagous to the car. There is no "browser," and you can't expect people to change something that only exists as the technical underpinning behind what they deal with. To most people. the Internet is that little blue E on their screen.
If you take your car to the mechanic and he tells you you need new axle boots, you say fine, do it. You don't have to know what axle boots are -- that's his job. Similarly, if you take your computer to a technician and he tells you you need a new browser, you say fine, do it. However, changing an axle boot doesn't mean you now have to start the car with a button, or that the windshield wiper controls have been moved to the floor in front of the driver's seat.
Changing the browser does entail these sorts of changes, and moreover, people certainly don't drive their computers into a technician's shop. People aren't stupid -- the machines are. People simply want a machine that works without having to swap out pieces they don't understand for abstract reasons at apparently arbitrary intervals.
You think you're so vastly superior to everyone else, maybe you should be out there fixing the machines instead of complaining about how stupid people are.
// This is not a sig.