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Gaming Naysayers Have Little Context for Criticism
Buzzcut.com has a nice piece on the lack of context video game critics have in making their arguments. It should be noted he is not referring to today's report card, but a list of Top Ten most violent games put out by the Interfaith Center on Corporate Responsibility. From the article: "I followed up with a simple question, "Who on this panel has played which of the games?" Burke answered first, "I haven't played any of them." She backed up her willful ignorance of the games by suggesting that she didn't need to play Soldier of Fortune to know that she was opposed to its glorification of killing. "I think it's an irrelevant question," she concluded."
Maybe someone should condemn reading the Bible, and put out a list of their own Top Ten most violent books of the Bible.
I'd then like to respond to the question "Why do you condemn these books of the Bible?" with "I haven't read any of them."
I'd continue, "I don't have to read the chapters about God slaughtering a bunch of people to know that I'm opposed to the Bible's glorification of killing. I think that's an irrelevant question."
One wonders how many respondants to this story will have read the article before they click Submit....
(and yes, I DID read the article before posting this.)
This, unfortunately, is an all-too-common theme - a bunch of People With Too Damn Much Free Time Who Have Decided They Are The Guardians Of The Public Morals seeking to "protect" us from ourselves.
In addition to the question of "How many of you have played any of these games" I would add another - "How many of you have spent any time at all with your children today?"
Funny how these folks have plenty of time to have these meetings - they must REALLY spend a lot of time with their kids.
Just remember - whenever you have the chance to attend something like this - ask them "And how many games have your played with your children in the past month?"
It's much more statisfying that saying STFU.
www.eFax.com are spammers
Is the blurb saying that you can't criticize something unless you have tried it first?
Does that mean that I have to become a Heroin addict before I can say, "Heroin use is bad". Do I have to kill someone before I can come out against murder?
This doesn't sound like a good way to confront these zealots. How about a more direct approach - ridicule.
Laugh in their face.
When they walk away from a conversation with you, they should know that you think:
1 - that not only is their cause based on junk science (or no science),
2 - but the leaders of their cause are the worst kind of charlatans motivated only by personial enrichment,
3 - and that they are fools for being so easily taken in.
I was wondering how Doom 3 could be considered more violent than GTA: SA in the eyes of religious and censorship groups until I went to the Interfaith site myself.
Personally, I thank Interfaith for compiling this year's Christmas shopping list for me.
Learn the words to this song:
t tr ouble.htm
http://www.stlyrics.com/lyrics/themusicman/yago
Sing it loudly as they walk away in disgust.
I know these people are hated here on slashdot (and I certainly don't love them), but come on now, it IS an irrelevant question.
I think we all know just from screenshots and descriptions what the games generally involve. These people, in their glorious wisdom, decided that anything involving shooting guns is too violent. I really don't think knowing that game A has a riviting storyline, or that game B involves fighting evil oppressors, will at all change their opinion.
It's like people who think cars are from the devil. Will it matter to them that car A is fuel efficient, or car B is fun to drive, or car C is practical? No, they just hate cars, and they don't need to drive one to know it's a car.
Here's the press release in question with the list at the bottom. Not only does the ICCR not play any of the games, they can't even spell them correctly! Look at GameSpot's treatment of this press release for some simple corrections.
I can't wait to play some of the Top 9 games that they recommend as "non-violent" at the very bottom. Either "Antigrav" (which as of this morning was spelled "Antigrave") or "EyeToy: Antigrav" (which was simply called "Eye Toy" earlier today) should be good. They're listed separately, by the way.
For more information, click here.
You can tell that their little list is complete crap seeing which games were ranked more violent than Postal 2. The game where you can beat a stereotypical arab to bloody death with a shovel and then piss on his corpse while lighting it on fire. Yeah, I'm sure Half-Life 2 is more violently offensive.
The only thing Postal 2 was missing was corpse raping... and many fans were upset that it didn't have that feature.
If you need an article to tell you that the ICCR's list is trash, you're one of them!!!
I hate people
"A truly wise man realizes he knows nothing."
Odd how that's a non-violent choice.. Seeing as how football involves people more or less throwing each other around.. trying to knock each other down.. and lots of mean words *sad face*.
I am a football fan and play Madden, but come on: Football = Violent
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
It was supposed to be the Center for Relative Advancement of Public Policy, not CAPP.
These are the same type of people who think that D&D is satanic because some of the characters in the game can cast magic spells. The fact that you roll a dice to see what happens doesn't matter to them and when asked about that little issue they just ignore it.
is that most, if not all of these games, have an M rating; meaning kids shouldn't be playing them in the first place unless a parent agrees. Yes, these games are violent, have blood, contribute to negative stereotypes, etc, whatever. However, they are clearly labeled as something not fit for a kid. Rather than get in a fit over content, this group really should get in a fit over how lax the enforcement of ESRB rating is. The system is in place, and working in so far as stating that these games are for mature audiences. It's the next step, retail distribution, where the biggest failing is.
What's so bad about this list? That looks pretty much dead-on for a list of the top 10 most violent PC/Console games lately.
They didn't say the games would make you go out and kill your next door neighbor, but that's a decent list of the most violent games of the last year or so.
You knew the answer to the question before you asked it, and I presume that most people on slashdot did also. So what's the point of this article?
Ironically, my urge to go on a homocidal rampage isn't provoked while playing Doom 3, but rather while reading the consistent bullshit propagated by these ignorant, self-righteous soccer moms.
I can see Postal as a valid entry, since the whole premise of the game is rooted solely in bad taste. What was the result? Mediocre reviews and lukewarm reception from the crowd. I don't think anyone above the age of 13 played the game for more than ten minutes at a time.
Does Halo even involve shooting at any humans? And what the hell is some imported anime-based game doing there?
I'm just glad that my precious Metal Gear Solid 3 passed under their radars, what with its new "close quarters combat (CQC)" feature that lets you knock out a sentry with an anesthetic-soaked rag, use him as a human shield against other sentries, and then slit his throat once his usefulness has been exhausted. Not to mention Snake's smoking habit that Kojima has been quite open about since the first MSX title.
People get this idea of good / bad god vs satan and assume that it applies across the board. Someone stealing from another, or being violent towards another is bad, in certain situations (we all understand the morality of theft and war, don't bother being a troll about that).
Simply portraying stories like this in media such as movies, music, and video games aimed at adults is absolutely fair game. Why? Because as adults we all understand these issues, and we understand also that there's a reality to it all. Video games are far from reality and as adults we're EXPECTED to understand this. It's against the law to sell an 8 year old grand theft auto. The game isn't for them, it's for us. To say that GTA's content is bad cause he's a ghetto thug and he shoots people / steals is absolutely ridiculous. The game is fun, and has an entertaining storyline. It's pure adult entertainment. And no folks, just because it says adult doesn't mean it's evil. It simply means it's not to be processed very well by children, and well... apparently those who feel the need to borrow their simple philosophical senses from their culture.
This is the exact reason I have a distaste for organized religion. It enforces a strict concept of absolute black/white right and wrong, along with a supression for questions which involve meaningful answers. This causes a philosophical void, as it would not be advantageous for the cult members or possible members to grow and change in their perspective, unless it further empowered the church, aka missionaries. The oppression of intellectual growth inevitably does our society a disservice by leading us to misunderstand our universe in ways such as believing humans developed by different means (poof, human) than typical Earth animals and ideas about protecting children from real world knowledge until it's time to drop them on their heads. Keep them dependant, boys. Good work.
No JFK Reloaded?
You quitting proves that the karma kap worked. The most annoying of the whores shut up. --CmdrTaco
1)Doom 3
2)Grand Theft Auto: "San Andreas
3)Gunslinger Girls 2
4)Half Life 2
5)Halo 2
6)Hitman: Blood Money
7)Manhunt
8)Mortal Combat
9)Postal 2
10)Shadow Heart
WTF??? Doom3 is worse than GTA:SA? Mortal Combat is violent maybe in a 1993 kinda way. It seems like they just looked at the history of the game's name in the media.
Doom was a big bruhaha in 1995. New one must be bad.
Uhh Mortal Combat has all this pixelated blood that we got a lot of press off of in 1992. Lets add it to the list.
Doom3 was scary in a haunted house kinda of way. Not any more violent than a typical FPS.
Gunslinger Girls 2??? I guess this game could corrupt the 3 people who bought it.
Shadow Heart?? A RPG?? How violent can a game be when you select attack, run or magic from a menu???
I would have to say Postal 2 is #1 because it tries really hard to be offensive on purpose and it probably makes the developers really sad it is #9.
We have both kinds of religions here, Catholics and Protestants!
Okay, so is Metroid Prime good are bad? I mean, the only woman is the main character, but she goes around killing different enemies. There's no blood, but there's "graphic" animation when you shoot or kill a space pirate. How about Super Smash Bros Melee, where Samus, Peach, or Zelda can be beat up? I see they listed Mortal Kombat, so I can only guess that any fighting game with a woman means violence against women. Back to Metroid Prime, if you're careless you and wonder into slime or shoot yourself with the right type of beam off a different beam lock door. Of course, I make mention of Samus Aran precisely because the character isn't as oversexed (read, unrealistic boobs) as Laura Croft, yet there's still clearly some things (ending cut scenes) which could be interpreted as demeaning.
I guess I want to know if it is only bad when you show blood squirting out. To mean, there being blood is actually *better*, because it shows kids that there's consequences to killing someone. Ie, they're likely to be soaked in blood in the process, unless they're rather careful--I don't believe that's much of a deterrent, btw. I really don't have any problem with wanting ESRB to be more descriptive. I'd love for sex and violence to be treated more sanely--ie, I do sort of wish there was less violence and more sex in games. I like the idea of having non-violent games or non-sexual games. And I like the idea of there being information to choose such. Hell, maybe if people got over the shock value of sex and violence, media companies wouldn't be putting out trash games whose only real quality is the sex/violence.
Censorship won't work. Being informed is great. But only by removing the source of the edge that drives sales of games you don't like do you have any chance of truly reducing the consumption of such games. Treat the source, not the symptoms. And just so you know, I am slightly offended Samus Aran always ends up in shorts and such. The idea for the character is what is great. Expanding on that would be the true reward for gamers.
Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
She's actually right; would you need to watch e.g. bestiality porn or a beheading video to know you wouldn't like it? How do you know cat poop isn't tasty? Have you tried it?
We're conceptual, rational beings who can form judgments based on incomplete sets of information.
"I haven't played any of them." She backed up her willful ignorance of the games by suggesting that she didn't need to play Soldier of Fortune to know that she was opposed to its glorification of killing. "I think it's an irrelevant question," she concluded."
I am an athiest but I still went to see the Passion of the Christ because I love movies and I was a Mel Gibson fan. That and I wanted to see it so I could at least have an opinion on it when I talked about it within my circle of friends. I don't see how you can have an opinion on something if you haven't seen or played it. Let me correct that sentence. I don't see how you can have a VALID opinion when you have not seen or played what you have the opinion on.
Might I add that there was at least 10x the violence in the Passion as there is in most of those games listed. Prior to that movie, I thought video games had desensitized me. Boy was I wrong!
And I say this because I will wager my house on the fact that the same people complaining about GTA San An would still take their kids, or at least allow their kids, to see that same movie.
Hypocrits!
Which is what makes them less suitable for children. Through youth work, I have talked to young teenagers about why they like GTA (despite ratings systems, some kids still manage to get the game), and their responses were not "for the cutting social commentary"!! They were "because you get to kill people and blow things up". Fortunately, this being the UK, the hooker function wasn't there for them to have found it...
Let's face it - a lot of people play these games to "play the bad guy" in a safe way. But can you really blame parents for not wanting their kids pretending to kill people with a chainsaw and then go back to the corpses to take their money?
There honestly is a point at which you can say "regardless of any mitigating context/plot, this game is simply too violent for my young child", and offer that advice to other parents who may or may not choose to agree. Remember, these groups are not trying to stop you or me from playing these games - unless you happen to be a young child. And more particularly unless you happen to be a young child whose parent considers violent games inappropriate, and is trying to avoid them.
Really, what the mothers are all REALLY complaining about and are REALLY trying to say, is that they don't want their kids to grow up. They'd rather have little Johnny paying attention to mommy, rather than watching him "waste" his time giving that console more attention.
I used to play games as a kid to the ire of my mother, and now that I live with a woman I've finally discovered what the fuss was REALLY all about with her.
It just seems to me that women just can't stand it when a man's hobby gets in the way of attention being paid to her. In this case, it's video games. Before then, it was other hobbies. Maybe driving around town "wasting time" would result in a car accident, or building model rockets was a waste of money, or reading books would hurt your eyes, or hanging out with friends too much would put you in risk of meeting "bad" people. etc. etc. etc.
And then when you finally get a girlfriend, your mother hates your new hobby with a passion.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
that one of their top "non violent games" is Prince of Persia, a game that was rated M (http://www.princeofpersiagame.com/)? Hell, you have to enter your birth date just to see the website. The first Prince of Persia was rated Teen, but it involved an awfully lot of stabbing and knifing.
e ment112304.htm
Here's the rest of their list:
1. Antigrav
2. EyeToy:Antigrav
3. Jak 3
4. Karaoke Revlution Vol. 3
5. Madden NFL 2005
6. Mario Power Tennis
7. Prince of Persia
8. RollerCoaster Tycoon 3
9. SimCity 4
http://www.iccr.org/news/press_releases/pr_jtstat
The best part is that "Antigrav" and "EyeToy:Antigrav" are both the same game. Seems they didn't even look at the games they were picking.
that religion is a disease, and one that needs to be stamped the fuck out - and soon if the human race is to ever survive.
Here's an idea: Keep your spoiled brats away from my art and media and start acting like a parent instead of someone who believes in magical men living in clouds, angels and goddamn voices telling you to do shit - for a change.
I fondly remember when people "who heard voices" were commited to institutions. Now we let our criminally insane roam the streets, and generate PR soundbites for the fuckwit news. Course it makes for easy money for some, and it's safer than selling drugs, or herbal viagra on the internet.
Brilliant snake-oil salesmen pandering going on these days. Brilliant. Give me some cash suckers! God told me he needs your money to save your kid from Grand Theft Auto. Please - or God will rape your 2 year old when he's asleep. He'll do it (or one of his pastors will) - I swear - to G.O.D! Praise the great old cloud surfer! Booga Booga Booga! Slamalanga ding dong amen fuckers!
"Its not relevant to the question of whether Scientology is an evil cult..."
uh huh. until you've done it, you don't really know, and have no right calling yourself 'an expert' on the subject.
ridiculous wogs.
Their goals are ignorance enforced by the rule of law, and to find somewhere to go that gives them a sence of purpose in their bleak empty wasteland of an existance. They want the world to know they were here, they know they don't know anything, don't want to know how to do anything, and that the world doesn't care. It's fear, shame and pride.
That's what most of Christianity in America is. And that's a shame. While I'm obviously not a Christian, I've met a couple of the "true believers" over 30 odd years. And honestly, they're among the best people I've met.
Who knows, if it were people like them that presided over my, ultimately failed indoctrination, maybe I'd be a Christian today. There is something enviable about their faith being a reseivoir of strength to butress them against the inequities of the world. There is something admirable about their desire to be generous to a fault. And there is something comfortable about their understanding that good is good, unless someone has been extorted into doing it.
It is the written Word of God. God is all-powerful, all-knowing and perfect. By definition anything he does must also be perfect.
Which is where a certain telescope inventor ran into trouble. During one of the many bloody battle scenes in the Bible God's faithful servent commands the Sun to be still in the sky so there would be enough light to finish the battle. The insipid Catholic argument was thus:
Because the Bible is the Word of God, it must be perfect in all aspects. Because it is perfect in all aspects, it must be the sun that moves through the sky, not earth revolving before the sun. Because Galileo Galilei denies this, he impugns the perfection of the book. And to do so is to impugn the perfection of God. Which is blasphemy. And bad.
But is there a point where I can say, "These examples from this form of entertainment which personally offends me are unfit for your child. Oh by the way, I don't know anything about any of them." and not be considered a total dumbass?
These groups are trying to make these kinds of games illegal. That is their end game. Make no mistake about it. They are not about people being responsible for themselves or their children. They are about imposing their will on other people to the fullest extent of their ability.
And consider the effect of their methods. Let's postulate a population of children who know exactly what these games are about, a stretch I know. Now, let's postulate a parent, who goes to one of these Family Research bullshit sites and loads up on misinformation. So there is now a conflict between the parent and child, where the only one with accurate information is the child, and the only one with power is the parent. The parent recognizing the opposed aims, more often than not, will dismiss the concerns of the child, as inaccurate. The child will actually have a pretty firm idea of how good their knowledge is and where they stand in the population of other children. (from our postulate and given that they associate closely for hours a day with large number of other children.) What has the child learned? That their parent(s) are capricious, prone to making very poorly informed decisions, and are uninterested in the day to day realities they contend with. Let's say there a kid who'd been taught that lesson a few times. When it comes to an important behavior, drugs, sex, alcohol, driving, how is that kid going to wieght the resources they use to make that decision? It's about trust, and these organizations are anything but trustworthy.
Maybe editors should read slashdot and the postings instead of posting double articles and waiting for the emails to flow in.
How can they possibly understand if they never fragged their neighbor in the face with an RPG.
If you look like your passport photo, you're too ill to travel. - Will Kommen
Keep in mind that this is the same Martha Burk that tried to take on Augusta National over the golf club being all-male a couple of years ago and failed miserably(she only had maybe 100 protesters after claiming to have thousands).
Here's something that these groups don't understand: Your argument is only as good as your credibility. Not to mention also that people do NOT like other people acting like they're better than everyone else and know better than everyone else.
The best example of this is none other than Jack Thompson. He has no credibility at all, not only as his arguments have been increasingly defeated by federal court decisions saying video games are Constitutionally protected speech, but also based on the way he responds to criticism of his actions(by hurling insults at people that e-mailed him, whether on his latest lawsuit against the video-game industry or his latest complaint to the FCC resulting in a fine against whoever he complained about, whether it was about Howard Stern or another radio personality, thus making him the most hated man in America).
This group must have learned to make lists from the Parents Television Council, as these lists have no credibility to them with all the mistakes that were pointed out in earlier posts. But then again, even though the PTC has no credibility themselves, at least the PTC will actually watch the shows they criticize.
In the end, all these people clumped together are nothing more than this: Too many crybabies, and not enough strollers.
== BearDogg-X ==
This was a great article. Don't you all wish the media would confront and challenge head on groups like this instead of just swallowing what they shovel out.
So they don't like video games. Since their opinion is not well researched it should be given little or no weight.
I think it is kind of, well, loony that it is on the list. It is only available in Japan, and the reason why I got so disgusted with Sony and stopped buying their systems in the first place is because they take their region coding very, very seriously. Not only do they region code their games, but they actively try to defend against anything that would break their region blocking like mod chips.
The review of the anime series seems to indicate that it is one of these nightmare dystopian anime series like Jin Roh. (See review.) So, if it was available in the US I wouldn't be surprised by its being on this list. (It also doesn't seem like it would appeal to me, actually... too depressing.)
I mean, am I wrong, was there a local release? A Google search does not turn up an American release for any of these games.
All the creatures will die, And all the things will be broken. That's the law of samurai. (Jubai, 1605)
there are actually only 8 non violent games left in the industry, so one had to be listed twice. They where hoping nobody would notice...
Hi! I make Firefox Plug-ins. Check 'em out @ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/youtube-mp3-podcaster/
They listed it because they probably saw a list of upcoming game releases including Japan and saw it had "gun" in the title.
Well I've wrestled with reality for thirty five years doctor, and I'm happy to say I finally won out over it.