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Managing the Online Teenager?
Parenting Pains asks: "I've got two teenagers, whose peer group have 'discovered' the Internet over the course of this year. We've gone from two bright happy lively teenagers at the start of the year, to now having two people who rarely venture outdoors except under duress and are close to unbearable unless they're ensconced online with 'friends' on MSN for hours at a time. Over recent months, this has gone from mildly amusing to out of hand, with them spending up to 10-12 hours a day on weekends online with friends. Many Slashdot readers must have confronted this situation; how have you dealt with it, and what were the outcomes of what you did? Do you just let the kids stay online till they got sick of it, and how long did it take? Do you ban them from using MSN? Do you limit the number of hours they can be online?"
"When they're not online, they're grumpy, demanding, constantly nagging, etc. (i.e. normal teenagers) - frankly it's easier for us when they are online, but not for that many hours at a sitting.
We made a decision up front to trust their judgement and not monitor who they talk to and what they talk about, but I'm starting to question the wisdom of this right about now. Not for any specific reason; there's just a little nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me there's something wrong with this."
We made a decision up front to trust their judgement and not monitor who they talk to and what they talk about, but I'm starting to question the wisdom of this right about now. Not for any specific reason; there's just a little nagging voice in the back of my mind telling me there's something wrong with this."
Introduce them to pr0n. That will keep them off IM.
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Just make sure to give them lots of chores.
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
That way they can take their addiction with them!
echo
Do these teens have computers in their own rooms? Is so, you should strongly think about removing them.
Only have 1-2 computers in your house with internet access and place them in 'common' areas. That way you can better monitor their online usage and curb it back.
Do try to talk to them but make it clear from the beginning that its up to them.
At some point they will realize that online life is just a charade.
But they have to discover it themself, if you tell them they wont belive you.
Ask them about a girlfriend, or boyfriend. Do they have one? Do they want one? Maybe not at this point?
If they are girls the usual reaction from a father would be "Oh god, a boyfriend".
But eventually they will have one anyway, its better than staying online the whole time.
For me, beeing online was my life, I spent roughly 2 years playing EverQuest (Theres was/is? a command showing you the hours played added up). But at one point I figured out thats not life.
But as I said, THEY have to figure that out. If you combat it you'll loose ground - they will not listen to you and life will be an endless fight with them.
Its an addiction, its a way of life. You cannot talk them out of it, you can only observe it and give them help when they are ready to quit it.
You are the parent!!
Tell them that they can have 2 hours and that is it. They are teenagers they will break that rule and then you provide a consequence.
As far as it being easier for you when they are online, tough parenting is hard work.
I do think it is great that you trust them and let them have time online to themselves, but you can, and should, still set limits.
I was going to say I was a teenager not so long ago myself, but I'm pushing 10 years hence now.
:P
Anyway, this will come off a bit odd, but buy a case of Bawls, and lan party with them.
Seriously.
If they're taking an interest in online activities, my gut tells me the best thing you can do is get involved. Be active and supportive.
True, getting outside and being active is important as well (perhaps join a gym, get into a workout regimine and encourage them to join you?), but if they're going to use the computer, make sure you have a part in it.
As a side note, since teenagers seem to take some amount of joy in parental rebellion, they may actually wind up spending LESS time online, simply because you're taking an interest in their activities.
Just some thoughts.
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Hey dad, get off slashdot. These are my friends. Oh, and I can be grumpy if I want.
-Tolerate my intolerance
... until they stop acting like trolls.
make them cook their own food, do their own laundry, etc. give them good reasons to leave the PC.
eventually they'll grow out of it, but it could be years and years before they complete that on their own.
help them hate the computer, force them to use IE, force them to go through a proxy where everything they do is monitored. disallow them from installing new software. make them hate the computer. they'll either give up or become so good at computers that their online time will turn into a career.
or you can just do what my dad did when i was hooked on nintendo. pull the fuse and hide it.
I won't take any lip from you. Don't come out until I say so. ....
and GET OFF OF THAT COMPUTER! I have MRTG down here, and I know how to use it. I cut off your default gateway just like that!
Karma: Chameleon (mostly due to the fact that you come and go).
Are they geek teenagers or just the normal dumb ones?
If they're geeks then you're probably squashing something useful by forcing the off the computer. I know this by experience. I feel restricted by my parents who are constantly forcing me to do other things, which makes it nearly impossible to do some things I've always wanted to, like clan gaming. On the more productive side, there's nothing more annoying than a parent nagging you to get off the computer when you're in the middle of coding a serious project (debugging even more so). Adding on to that however, I have been working at an IT related job for the last 4 months and both my parents and myself have seen a significant decline in the amount of time I spend on the computer at home. Getting an IT related job might be a little tricky; I think I just got lucky.
If they aren't geeks, get them off that damn computer. Their time is much better wasted smoking up and getting hammered at some party. Maybe if they're lucky they'll have a kid before they finish high school.
Beware he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master. -Anonymous
I was recently a teenager (i'm 21 now) who spent 8 to 10 hours a day online, and I can't say that it was a bad thing. I mean, as long as they're getting their schoolwork done and still helping out around the house, is it really that big a deal that they spend their free time online? Do what my mom did: no computer until homework and chores are done.
Embrace and extend, I just get on line for 10-12 hours a day as well and rearly venture out side. Just refresh Slashdot all day and you'll be fine.
Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
You shouldn't be so concerned about the fact that they're spending so much time on the computer. You should be concerned that they're spending that time with mind-numbing chat.
I spent at least ten hours a day on the computer when I was a teenager. However, I spent it learning to program and other things that later landed me a great high-paying career.
But kids don't do this anymore. The computer and the internet have simply turned into a "chat toy" and - at best - a gaming console. The idea of putting a computer together and then learning it inside out (meaning more than just how to USE applications and surf the net) is passe. And it's sad.
Getting introduced to the internet was a revolution for me. Yes, I was one of those teens who spent a lot of time indoors, and even in my early twenties, I do spend a fair amount of time online.
What parents today need to realise is that the internet is more than a past-time. Some of my best friends are online. Being a bit of a social outcast, I actually learned quite a bit about what is acceptable by talking with people online. I went from having zero self-confidence to a having a healthy amount. So instead of becoming a real-world recluse, I'm actually somebody with dreams, goals, and ambition. For me, as with others, it's easier to talk about personal issues through the chat medium.
The internet is also a great educational resource for all topics, not just those you'd find in a book. It also exposes you to more viewpoints that you won't see in mainstream media. It has been very helpful along my road of self-discovery. I have become much more aware of what is out there, and have developed quite a deep understanding of myself.
So for a while, yeah, I spent too much time online. Did I turn out okay? Absolutely, and for the better.
Be relentless!
my younger brother went through this same phase. i agree, its VERY annoying. i have yet to figure out what the solution is, but the key is to act now!
;)
one thought: hop on the internet with them. start showing them all the neat things on the internet where they can learn more about little projects they could replicate or even enhance at home. anything to get their minds churning. that way they get the motivation to get off their butts themselves!
also, i would encourage them to go to their friends houses to hang out, or to the mall with the friends, etc. offer to drive them. sure hanging out at the mall isnt time much better spent, but at least its a step in the right direction.
and if all else fails, may be seeing their parents using the internet so often will make them feel its not as cool as they thought it was and they'll stop
...specific time frame that they're allowed to be online. Only allow them to be online from 4-6 PM every day, or whatever you deem acceptable. This could easily be implemented...depending on what you're using for internet sharing. If you have a linux box as your gateway, a couple of iptables rules and some crontab entries would solve the problem. Alternatively, products like the Linksys WCG200 internet gateway allow you to set up access restrictions based on time.
Just a couple of suggestions.
IM is just a communication method. Would you nag them as much if they were chatting on the phone instead? Even if you had more than one phone line? Do computers bother you because you don't understand technology and are afraid of it? Would you be equally concerned if they spent ten hours a day with their friends in real life? If your concern is simply with them being physically inactive, then say it, instead of making some vague "internet is evil" complaint. When teenagers hang out in the real world they are not very active either. Think about it.
soon.
I what you described was very similar to my own computer usage habits in my teen years. I was a social introvert, and felt like I could communicate more easily over IRC.
What i've now realized is that this very stale and limited form of communication (words pale in comparison to things such as body language, tone, eye contact) had curbed my ability to socialize with people in real life. I was not able to handle all of this information being thrown at me when I talked to someone face to face, it became overwhelming. And I became a jerk for a big part of it, what i thought would be sarcastic or witty jokes, ended up being horrible offenses against the people I was talking to, for the very fact that taken as a string of words, it wasn't much, but saying it face to face with a person, making eye contact, etc. changed its meaning.
What helped me break out of this was some serious away from computer community building experiences. I went to a non traditional boarding school (http://www.shackleton.org) that forced me to deal with people face to face. Once I was able to discover a sense of closeness with people there, being online just felt fake. There are other options too, outward bound is a good one, that will not only get your kids outside for a couple of weeks, but really push their limits and help them figure out what they are capable of.
I would also suggest limiting their internet access, and having them do outside sports, interaction with people, jobs, and physical exercise, all of which helped me through the difficult stages of puberty and figure out with a little more clarity what I wanted to do with my life.
I also suggest you take a look at "Letters at 3Am: Reports on Endarkenment" By Michael Ventura, specifically the essay "Age of endarkenment" which is an amazing piece on puberty in western cultures. Also take a look at "Shame and Pride: Affect, Sex, and the Birth of the Self" by Donald Nathanson.
And talk to your kids, tell them about your life growing up and what it was like at that time, not in a shaming way or a contrived way, but just share your experiences with what they may be going through.
I am not a shrink, or a developmental psychologist or anything of that nature, I have had to deal with my own puberty and I am currently in a stage in my life self relfecting on it and these are the things that I (and my therapist) have discovered to be helpful.
As for limiting their time that's realatively easy. The same software above can be used to limit hours of overall use, amount of time in specific programs, etc. You can give them lots of time for say using Word to write papers and less time for certain games or online activities. Also, don't forget the value of spending that off time with them (nor that of get-togethers with friends). Take them on family and one-to-one outings. Again, treat the computer the way you would any other activity -- actively manage it.
Most important to the above is to talk with your children and explain your thinking. I would not suggest going at it by parental fiat -- don't install the software one night while their sleeping. Explain to them your concerns AND your desire to spend time with them. Install it and show them how it works (not the admin part ;-).
Sullen and moody? That's in part something we as parents have to work around but it's best not to let it run unchecked. The same rapport and good relationship that allows you to spend time online with them and go on outings should help break past the bearer and find the child and attitude you'd rather have around the house.
No, no, no. Your job as a parent is not to be your child's friend. Your job as a parent is to raise these children to be productive, successful, responsible adults (where "success" should not be defined solely in terms of money). THEY do not need to figure it out. YOU do. YOU need to take the responsibility to teach them responsibility - where else will they learn it from, their teenage friends who are going through the same growth process (hormones, brain still growing, etc.)?
That said, YOU also have to determine if it is actually a problem or not. Putting the computers in a public area is more than reasonable - but same goes for other activities, like TV, game consoles, etc. The bedroom should be a private place where a child can go to relax, find refuge, do homework. It shouldn't be Disneyland.
Chances are, if the computer is in a public area, 10-12 hours per weekend of online time won't be a bad thing. But YOU will be in a better position to make that judgement. And THEY will be less likely to try.
Just my 2 cents.
This isn't even like when your kids are out on their own. They're in the house. There are no hard and fast rules for how long is too long, but if you think the line is being crossed, walk over to the computer, reach behind the back of the case and pull the power cable.
If your teenager is spending too much time on the telephone, pull the cord out of the wall.
That said, make sure you know what your kids are doing online. No, I don't mean spying. I mean are they IMing their friends, IMing some letcher or learning how to program? Are they "wasting time" on howstuffworks.com or incessantly playing Doom3?
And make sure that you periodically kick them out of the house to play soccer.
- I don't need to go outside, my CRT tan'll do me just fine.
Block the IM port on the router. Its a security-hole-ridden load of crap anyway. If they want to chat for hours online, at least make them use something less horrible.
If they're non-geeks, the 'oh dear, is the internet down?' excuse will put off the argument for a while, too!
"I Know You Are But What Am I?"
This happened to my sister. Between the hours involved, and the fights to see who get on the computer, she got so pissed off she just cancelled the internet. Her family was more important than the convenience of having internet at home.
Sure, there was resentment at first, but in the cousr of a month, the whole family is back to normal.
...charge them for the time they spend online. Treat your house like an internet cafe.
Install Linux on their PCs. Something like Debian, without the Gnome or KDE desktop environments. Explain to them that in order to run the instant messenger, they will need to compile the desktop environment for the latest kernel, meanwhile using wget. Bring home a good supply of O'Reilly books.
Pretty soon they will be either off the Internet, or discussing the kernel fork pros and cons in specialized mailing lists.
You're letting your kid use MSN? What the hell is wrong with you? Are you trying to raise a future Microsoft supporter? Stop it now before it's too late.
As if there aren't real people at the other end of that IM client.
Umm, that didnt work for me, I had to figure it out myself, whatever my parent said, I did it the other way.
Still now I'm successfull running my own business at 21, living in a distant city.
Ask them what they want to do with their lives. Just constantly ask them that. Eventually they'll think about it. If they still don't do what you want, well there's not much more you could have done.
now having two people who rarely venture outdoors except under duress
:-)
Easy: get them wireless access. The Danger Hiptop might work.
And, don't worry, once they discover real sex, they will venture outside again.
Do you ban them from using MSN?
Sounds like a good idea. They should be using Jabber.
Do you limit the number of hours they can be online?"
Oops, darn, what a shame, Windows crashed again. Kids, it will take me a few hours to reinstall. Sooner or later, they'll catch on and just install Linux for you, but at least that's educational.
Many Slashdot readers must have confronted this situation; how have you dealt with it, and what were the outcomes of what you did?
Yeah, I know, being a Slashdot reader myself, my parents have been trying to get me away from the computer as well, but with little success so far
Well, you're the parent, do something about it! You don't mention what you've tried to get them unhooked so I can only assume that you haven't done anything yet. Take the initiative. Lay down the rules. Don't know what the rules should be? Make some up. It's more important to have rules at all than to have perfect ones.
Oh, and you probably waited too long.
If it were my kids in this situation and it had gotten this far out of hand and they got all up in arms over a few limitations, I would say this:
"Okay, fine. Your computer time is limited to 2 hours per day during the week and 3 hours per day on the weekend. Homework counts towards it. If you want more time than that, you'll have to use this computer right here. There is no operating system on it. You may only install FreeBSD on it. Cooperation is encouraged. Have fun."
Oh yes, they would hate me. With a passion. But they just might thank me eventually.
Age: a 13-year-old and a 17-year-old should be treated differently. The younger deserves less independence due to their lesser maturity and experience. Grades: are their grades acceptable? If not, limit the online chatting until they are, since this appears to be simply a phone-replacement and not serious programming, etc. Variety in their lives: if they never go out and see the people that they are chatting with then their life is too limited. In any event, when you took on the responsibility of having children, you took on the responsibilty of guiding them ( since they have limited experience ) as long as they stay with you. Too many parent abdicate that responsibility.
How many hours a day do you spend on slashdot?
---
"Dear Diary, I seem to be dead." -Nny
two people who rarely venture outdoors except under duress and are close to unbearable unless they're ensconced online with 'friends' on MSN for hours at a time
When they're not online, they're grumpy, demanding, constantly nagging, etc. (i.e. normal teenagers)
It sounds like there are deeper issues here than internet usage - I get the sense that you have some hostility towards your kids.
Have you considered that your own attitude may be contributing to the amount of time they're spending away from you and online?
Facts are stubborn things.
Right on! Now stop blaming the school system because your kids can't pass the 3rd grade for the ninth time. After all, it is YOUR responsability to make sure your kids is giving 110%, right? ya with me on this one?
"Everybody follow me, we're going streaking through the quad. COME ON!!!"
Funny how the Internet connection goes down around dinner time...
If you are a bit more tech savvy you set the rule. You can sit down and dicker about times, but I set limits on the lenght of time online. Be reasonable or your kids may try to hold you to the same limits. :) Now if you rely on your kids for tech support you have lost the biggest tool.
Above all be open and honest about what your expectations are, but be firm.
It's no different than TV or video games.
First of all, warn them about obesity and Type II Diabetes. If they're always at the computer, they're taking the risk of becoming obese and that can rnesult in Type II Diabetes.
Second of all, warn them about social anxiety and depression. Let them know that the longer they avoid going out and doing things, the harder it will become. This could impact them severely and could result in regret and lonelyness.
From all the responses here I see a disturbing pattern of suggestions, no: demands! to be absolutely in control of what children do. This immediately strikes me as both immoral and futile. By trying to fit your child into a specific mold you are treating him like an object. An experimental object of "let's see how much better our kids can turn out if they don't do all the bad things we used to do!" You are basically trying to remove his free will and replace it with your own; to destroy any nascent moral thoughts he may be having and to install your own. From other comments I gather that most parents appear mostly concerned with pornography ("put the computer in a public area"), which is really sad. Sure, there are wars in the world, and school shootings, and hunger and starvation, and drugs, cigarettes, alcohol, fast food; but our children's lives will surely be destroyed by a sight of a woman's body. I won't even talk about the fact that whenever I've been in some male friend's room, I always saw some porn somewhere. I won't mention that your kids can just as easily hide it where you can't find it. I won't even mention those .jpg files on my father's computer (which get automatically added to his Documents' menu :) I guess if he knew how to prevent that, he wouldn't have to ask me to remove spyware, clean viruses, troubleshoot the network; *sigh*) I'll just say that whatever it is you are trying to "protect" your kids from, they will get anyway, and probably dislike you for trying. It's not that you don't mean well, it's that you don't understand the real problem. A boy wouldn't spend so much time looking at porn if he could spend time with a girlfriend. He wouldn't do drugs if he had a purpose in life; a purpose whose emergence you have prevented by trying to cram your own down his throat. He wouldn't do drugs if he had other ways of experiencing pleasure; from learning, for instance: there's nothing like the feeling "I can do this!" "I know how!" "Wow! I finally understand!"; or from sports: "I am strong and agile!", "I am in control of my body!"; or from social interactions: "people like me.", "I am a nice person", "I like meeting people and making friends." He wouldn't smoke if he knew when to try to fit in and when not to. If he knew what kind of people he liked (as opposed to being told whom to like) and why he liked them, he would have had a much better chance of finding friends instead of throwing himself into what he perceives to be the "cool" group in a desperate, futile attempt to belong somewhere, anywhere, to just not be so painfully lonely. He wouldn't be a bully if you had allowed him to develop self-confidence, which you have quashed with every "because I said so" and every restrictive little rule you imposed upon him without explanation. He wouldn't turn to violence if he could change things he hated without it. And you know what? If you keep at trying to make him your "perfect little boy", he'll run away from you. As far as possible. Maybe he'll wait until he goes to college, gets a job, and then never speaks to you again. Maybe not. But I can tell you that you won't be close and you won't be a family.
If they "need" their intarwebs access, tell them that they can pay for the service.
That will force them to get jobs or even just do chores (cleaning their rooms, shoveling snow, whatever).
Once they've got responsibility, they will have less time to spend online and more time becoming responsible members of society.
Not a Twitter sockpuppet... but I wish I was.
Leave 'em alone. It seems that you're mostly concerned about the time that they spend online rather than what they're doing, which is good - they're not idiots, and the worst they can do is maybe look at porn (and in actuality, is that such a horrible thing?). If they're 13-15, chances are they will grow out of it. They're at the age where they're beginning to take social (and romantic) relationships seriously, but are a little new to it and find conversing online a lot easier. As they grow older and more independent, they'll find more real way to communicate (first phone, then in person) and will get off of the computer. It's a hard time for a kid, and easing into serious social and romantic relationships is perfectly normal, and the Internet is just perfect for that. Now, if they're older, then you have a problem. It could be that they're just developing later, or it could be that...I dunno. They're becoming obsessed? But it seems like they're younger (I can't imagine a 17-year-old's age group "just discovering" the Internet), so I think it's perfectly normal. Talk to them about safety and not giving out personal information, but beyond that, don't worry about it. Even porn is hardly detrimental - it's a fine introduction to sexuality and, quite frankly, they'll probably grow out of that, too.
Dear Son,
I'm so sorry that you like to spend so much time online. I had hoped that you could grow up to be a healthy, trim, and sociable person. Now you'll have monitor tan, eye strain, and a big gut from sitting around all day. Enjoy not having any friends!
Love,
-Folks
Seriously, though, see if you can note particular changes (physical / mental) that happened because of the increased net use. For example, after a summer of independent coding / database work, I found that I couldn't speak up to save me -- I would stutter. A consequence of the computer I'd say.
terpmotors.com
Are they just spending all their time online chatting with friends? If so, just limit their time to 1 hour a day or, as some other people have posted, give 'em a blank hard-drive and a fresh FreeBSD install and plenty of books.
If they're like me and spend all their time online programming, reading, maintaining a web server, etc, then don't cut their access down, just sit down and have a talk with them and work with them to think up things they could do instead of going on the computer. Maybe just tell them that you'll continue letting them sit on the computer as long as they currently do if they'll let you sign them up for a soccer/badminton/etc league.
This statement is forty-five characters long.
I agonized heavily, relentlessly, endlessly, hell, I'm still agonizing about this with my 9 year old son who has taken up the EverQuest addiction just when I was able to kick the habit. *shakes fist at sky* DAMN YOU EVERQUEST!
As a result I have developed a weird mishmash of arbitrary rules and semi-biblical provisions which has served me well. OK, I'm lying, it hasn't served me well - but - it's a starting point. To wit:
On the division of FREETIME it shall be thus:
1/2 of the time shall be spent doing things that THE FATHER approves of (reading, listening to music, exercise, hobbies, artistic endeavors, worship of deity or deities approved of beforehand, etc).
1/2 of the time shall be spent doing things that THE CHILD desires (subject to state and local laws).
SATURDAY IS A FREE DAY, for no one should be made to worketh on a Saturday.
FREETIME shall be defined as the time left AFTER school work is completed and chores are accomplished.
Time spent doing otherwise prohibited activities with THE FATHER or THE MOTHER shall not count as time deducted from THE CHILD. For example, playing games of THE CONSOLE with THE FATHER or watching THE TV with THE MOTHER.
And finally, I say unto THE CHILD, LO you should be GRATEFUL that I let you playeth the GAMES VIOLENT and haveth ONLINE CHATS unsupervised for there are many parents whom do not alloweth behaviors such. DO NOT MAKETH ME REGET MINE DECISION!
Don't take the PCs out of their bedrooms. As a 16 year old kid, I know how important it is to have a private place where I child can go to relax- and talk to their friends in private. You don't expect me to be able to hear everything you say; don't expect that you can hear whatever I say. If you don't trust me enough to give me my privacy, I'll take it. Whether I spend all my time sending encrypted e-mail from school, an internet cafe, or wherever; I WILL speak in private.
Parents have to trust their children.
There's this page.
I'm assuming your kids use windows. Can't help you there - but if you can setup a unix-like router you might be able to implement some of these....
If you can restrict access to a unix machine acting as a router that's running PF, you could use AuthPF to enable or disable a NAT connection to your child's box. Just have them ssh in when they want to use the machine and they either get logged out automatically somehow or logout when they're done. (It's not hard. Putty with private keys makes this a two click operation or it could be scripted to run at startup on a unix box.) This could be setup to allow or restrict access to individual computers on your in-house LAN.
Note: OpenBSD does not have the sessiontime clause in login.conf
You could use login.conf and times.allow, times.deny to restrict when logins are allowed (on FreeBSD):
You could also use AuthPF and a cron script to write and remove /etc/nologin. from the system at given times.
Remember root can login anytime (can also be overridden on individual accounts through login.conf with ignorenologin. You'll need to periodically check and force logouts (after a winpopup warning) based on the existence of this file.
You could modify the firewall/NAT rules directly via cron or some other method to your choosing (report cards online? Screenscrape the results and allow an extra hour for each grade point above a B-...)
You could block services on an individual basis. Web allowed all the time but chatting only from 2000-2100?? No filesharing untill after dinner?
There may be a PAM module that will restrict login based on time of day, week, etc.
You could use user accounting to record how much time they spend online. A weekly review with them.... You could restrict usage to hours/day, hours/week or whatever. When the time is all used up, access get's locked.
Your job as a parent is not to be your child's friend. Your job as a parent is to raise these children to be productive, successful, responsible adults
Who said it was someone's *JOB* to be their child's friend?
Whyise being their friend and fulfilling your "job" of raising them mutually exclusive?
Most importantly, why do you think that you can't be a responsible parent without antagonizing your child?
Not Debian. Make them use Gentoo. And KDE. That way they'll have to compile KDE before they IM.
That'll slow them down for a few days.
I don't know about that. I do know that I've never had a computer or a television in my room until very recently, when I moved out of the house. Instead of spending hours in my room on the computer, I spent hours in the common area on the computer.
My little sister used to use the phone all of the time. She would go insane if you didn't let her use it, with all of her whining and screaming. She then discovered AIM, and it completely opened up the phone for everyone else. She used to bitch at me to get off the computer then, if I were using it.
So, if you have more than one kid who is interested in IM, and you only have one computer, you had better teach them how to share... and how to deal with disappointment. Otherwise, you're going to have a high frequency of loud and annoying fights.
IM is relatively harmless, too. Of course, they could be talking to FBI agents in one window and pedophiles in another, but it's up to you to ensure that they exercise good judgement in who they talk to. Remember McGruff? Don't talk to strangers? Take a bite out of crime? The same rules apply to on-line interactions. Make sure that they are talking to their friends or family.
If you're worried about them not getting out, you should be happy. Teenage kids get mixed up in things that are far worse than IM, with consequences that could last a lifetime. Be happy that they're inside, where you can keep an eye on them, instead of out getting high or pregnant.
You need to restart your computer. Hold down the Power button for several seconds or press the Restart button.
Do you ban them from using MSN?
Your asking this on slashdot and you don't already know the answer? Seems to me you don't spend enough time on your computer. Who are you to judge your offspring if you yourself can't even keep 'with it'?
--Nuintari
slashdot : where an opinion can be wrong.
Amen.
Plus, if you don't set some rules, who are they going to rebel against?
Seriously, the struggle to establish their own independent identity is an important part of becoming an adult. If you just sit back and "trust their judgement," then they will become independent by the default, because you've declared yourself irrelevant. If you set arbitrary, inflexible and unreasonable rules, you are likewise out of the picture.
So, I say set clear, reasonable and strict rules then make them argue a reasoned compromise if they diagree. Then they'll become the kind of adult who can speak up for themsleves while hearing the other side.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
The solution to this problem and every problem is: Install Linux.
-l
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I had the same problem with television when I was a kid - I was enraptured by it. I went from playing outside all day and staying in occasionally to staying in all day and playing outside occasionally. My dad saw that this was a problem and came to a very simple solution: No more TV. He threw out all of the TVs in the house except one, which he put in the basement (no cable reception was nill) for watching moves. This stopped my TV watching problem in its tracks. Instead, I spent much more time outside, and by the time I graduated highschool I was reading an average of a book - two books/day.
And yes, when I was young, I was pretty pissed at my dad. So, please, be a parent and don't let your kids use the computer. If the say no, throw the damn thing out the window. Leave one in the house, and switch back to dialup.
RandomAndInteresting.comdefending the world from stupidity since 1979
I was like almost like this when I was a teenager (I am 21 now), but, thankfully, the internet wasn't a major force for me until high school started. Because of that, in middle school, I got involved with several activities, and even sports, that allowed me seperate outlets. I ran cross country and track, and played in the school band.
My parents never had to restrict my online time, because even though I spent several hours a day, and sometimes even 8-10 hours, I was involved in other activities that got me outside, and involved me with real life friends. Granted, most of them were geeks too, but you've gotta fit somewhere.
So, my suggestion is that they only be allowed to spend as much time online as they have with other activities that don't take place in the house. It may seem like binging and purging for a while, but it balanced me out pretty well in the end.
I'm very surprised by the responses to this question? It's very unlike Slashdot to promote this kind of totalitarian, dictatorial solutions. I'm even more surprised those kids aren't defended by the slashdot crowd. Maybe they are spending a lot of time on the computer, but they are communicating and socializing. If you tell a geek "get a life" he'l get online. For many people the internet is the best and cheapest way of being in contact with other people.
Consider all the other possible things teenagers tend to do. Hang around on the street, be part of a gang, be involved with crime and/or drugs, being drunk. None of them compare to being at home talking to other people
You should realize that a computer is a very versatile device. Spending 4 hours behind a computer doesn't mean 4 hours of the same.
Watching a movie, listening to music, talking to friends, researching an interest, playing a game and paying bills are all activities that can be done using a computer. Suggesting that they are all the same thing because all of them involve a computer is not very accurate. As a computer nerd almost all of my activities involve a computer in some way or they other. For me that's the most efficient way of working. Computers are tools, and very good tools in the hands of a professional.
If I need to fix my bike, I'll use my computer to learn how to.
If I want to go to the movies, I'll use the internet to find out what movies are playing, where, when and wheter or not there are tickets left.
If I want to contact my brother (who is travelling around the world) I'll use my computer.
If I need to pay my taxes, I'll do it using my computer.
If I want to play a game of chess, I'll use my computer.
PS I wear jeans during all the activities described above. Nobody ever told me I spend to much time in jeans. A computer is just like a pair of glasses or jeans; something I'm using most of the day to make my life a little more comfortable.
By being able to shoulder the responsibilities. If they can't handle the responsibilities of being part of a family ("participate in civilized social interaction with your family"), you pull the privileges.
Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
Give me control over the school curriculum quality of teachers and educational philosophy and I will agree with you. As long as the state tells me where I have to send my children, and determines what they'll learn and how they'll learn it, then I have every right to blame the school system when my kids don't learn crap.
You can tell a great deal about the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
Are you running a hotel or are you a parent? It is your responsibility to set limits and enforce them. Try to do it in a respectful manner, try to explain why it's necessary, try to get their agreement if you want to - but JUST DO IT.
My son was getting sucked into IM & the web for long stretches of time. It wasn't good for him (energy, attitude, socialization). My wife and I made the difficult decision to limit it to 1.5 hours per day. Yes, there was arguing, yes there was shouting. Now - it's OK. He gets the rules, lives within them 99% of the time and, I believe, is a stronger kid because of it.
Remember - it is your job and obligation to take care of your kids. It isn't always fun. That doesn't matter. Don't be a dictator. Do be in charge.
They are new to the IM scene. More than likely they just need to get over the newness of it. eventually it will burn out. They will probably burn out on it, before it becomes a real medical problem. I used to chat in college and realized that it was getting old. You might hang out with them on the weekend, though.
Consider faking a computer or home network problem to see what they do in the mean time. They are probably happy have a "private" way to communicate with friends about boys / girls. Obviously if you are posting to slashdot, you are setting an example that computers are useful tools.
You might plan a weekend out camping. don't let them bring the cellphone text messaging either though.
...::----::...
I am in no way affiliated with this sig.
Am I missing something? If you hve a "fresh FreeBSD install" it's not a blank harddrive. It may have a blank partition - but that's different. Besides, do not give them FreeBSD. It has far too many ports. Give them a minimal NetBSD install.
Cut them off.
While it's arguably okay for them to be social online instead of outdoors, they're not respecting you.
Cut them off. When they stop acting like a couple of petulant children, then they've earned the right to get back online.
Don't restrict them for no reason. Don't cut them off just because you're the parent. Make damned sure that they know that *their* actions have triggered these consequences.
(As a side note, I was raised with next to no supervision on the Internet, and allowed to stay on pretty much as often as I wanted. I also was allowed to stay out as late as I wanted, but that all depended on me staying out of trouble.)
Raptor
"Procrastination is great. It gives me a lot more time to do things that I'm never going to do."
It all depends on if their geeks or not. If they are geeks don't limit their time. If my parents limited my time then I would have never known all the stuff i know today. if their jus talking to friends and have no computer skill what so ever then you should think about limiting their time, because thier more likely to screw up your/their computer.
- Shrödinger's Cat is Dead, Or is it?
You would have to REMEMBER McGruff and "Don't talk to strangers"
They don't teach that now. The new thing is, if you are lost or need help, go to the nearest adult, any adult and ask for help.
The reason being that a lost child can't deal on his own and needs help. A child that is afraid to talk to strangers and is separated from the people that he knows is in a much worst situation than one who has been taught to find the first adult he sees and get help.
99.999% of the time when a lost child walks up to an adult, he is going to get some form of help, or at worst ignoired. The chances that someone he asks for help is going to hurt him is so small as to not be worth considering. Most people
are going to make a few shouts to try and get his parents attention if they are nearby and then call the police. (or whatever else may be appropriate for the situation, building security, store manager etc)
The point is, the less time the kid spends without an adult focusing some amount fo attention on him, the better.
-Steve
"I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
Many Slashdot readers must have confronted this situation;
indeed!
how have you dealt with it,
vi hosts
slashdot.org 127.0.01
and what were the outcomes of what you did?
Once again having a sex life and showering regularly?
--
$tar -xvf
I have to agree with the grandparent poster that it's up to them. Is the parent poster a parent (no pun intended)? I was such a teenager, also for two years, and that was only two years ago. Today, I'm a parent (though my son only just turned one, so my experience here is pretty limited). I'm also helping raise my teenage brother.
/., OSNews, Dilbert, and fiddling around with a whole lot of non-Internet computer stuff. But I'd never be to this point if someone (my then girl friend, now wife) hadn't shown me how great the real world is.
Basically, if you live in an otherwise strict house, I see no problem with moving the computers in to more public areas of the house. But if they're used to more freedom than that, prepare for that approach to meet with Hell in the form of teens.
What finally got me offline was my girlfriend (who I met from a friend who I originally met online, coincidentally). We started getting out of the house and doing a lot of "real world" stuff. To this day, I'd call myself addicted to the Internet, but in a FAR more beneign way. I used to spend 15 hours a day online, easily. Today, I just likes me my
If you want them happily offline, someone needs to show them a great time in the real world. Heck, even going to the movies or hanging out at friends' houses is a hell of a lot better than online.
I have two teenagers and I had this problem too.
We got a family Christmas present of a GPS and I introduced them to Geocaching and we've had many, many fun hours exploring and finding new places. We've even placed a couple caches ourselves.
Put the PC in the living room, kitchen or some other high-traffic location. You really can't be suprised that they never leave the bedroom, you installed a box in there that meets all their emotional needs.
Perhaps gently taunt them for greasy hair and unwashed flab? Give them nicknames like "biscuits" and "spotty"? Not sure if raising kids is like raising kittens...
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
I suggest that you invest in some paragraphs.
I'll be spending most of tomorrow doing a favor for a dear friend. Her and her two boys(12 and 16) will be on a cruise and I'll be going over their computers with a fine-toothed comb.
Two months ago, both their machines were unusable because of mounds of malware. The older boy had a lousy porn collection but it was clear he'd been massively deleting stuff because he knew I was coming over. The stuff I did find was disturbing enough that I had a long talk with Mom. She, however, didn't want to believe her precious darlings would willingly download the sort of content that could get them thrown in jail. I reached an agreement with her that I'd do this one more time if she agreed not to warn the boys the next time it was going to happen. I rebuilt both machines from scratch - Win2K, ZA, Ad-Aware, AVG, Firefox, and all the updates. Now, one machine is again inoperative and the other is so slow Mom wants to just go buy a new one.
So, without the boys knowing, I'm going to audit the state of their computers and prepare a report for mom. I have pretty good suspicions about why they wanted the digital cameras and webcams that don't leave their rooms. I have pretty good suspicions about what was in those directories with the names I won't print here. But delivering the report to Mom isn't something I'm looking forward to.
The original poster is questioning the decision he made to allow computers in the bedrooms of his teens. Based on what I've seen, if I ever have kids there is no freakin' way they'll have access to any computer behind a closed door until they're at least of legal age to do in person the things they'll be tempted to do on cam.
I have a feeling that if he'd just move the computers to a common area, half his problems would disappear.
Oh, and btw, when I finish I'm wiping both machines and installing some barebones flavor of linux that I'll strip of pretty much everything except a web browser and an office suite. I want them to be able to do basic schoolwork in their bedrooms but Mom can buy them another Windows machine for games and other assorted diversions.
For our kids, we did this, with great success:
Sound too draconian? It's absolutely no different than limiting TV access in the days when TV was the primary "pipe".
Think you're depriving them of something important that will stunt their abilities later? Think again. They will figure it all out within 30 minutes of their 18th birthday, and they will be better at it than you in another 30 minutes (if not before).
Part of my reasoning was that once I did give them access, I didn't want it to be through a lame parental filter program that would become yet another big sysadm task. If they were mature enough to use the Internet at all, then they were mature enough to watch their step.
How well did it work? The kids have done most of their written homework on the computer, had lots of fun, but have many activities elsewhere in and out of the house. We haven't had to force them off, and only needed to prod them off for things like minor chores. And their computer has never been compromised, despite being DOS/Win31/Win95/Win98/Win2K. And no, they don't have cell phones either.
Have you tried... your friends' houses? Or inviting them over? Or meeting somewhere? That used to be a popular way for kids to talk back when the Earth's crust was still molten, in the 70s'. (You even got to see them that way.) Or if that's too retro for you, how about talking on the phone like kids did in the neolithic 80's (landline) and medieval 90's (cell)? Bottom line: you don't need a computer to relax and talk to friends away from your parents.
http://alternatives.rzero.com/
Secure the computer: dont give them access to be able to install software. Remove AOL/MSN/etc IM's, disable IE and install firefox (I dont know if you really can disable IE completely?). Then explain to them that these things are security risks to your computer. That way they may think you are a paranoid, but they arent going to argue it: either they are ignorant to such things, or they know you are right.
Dont put the computer in their room. Unless you have an obvious nerd. In which case you probably cant do anything to stop them anyway.
I'd rather my kids were looking at porn in their rooms then going out and having sex. As for the chatting, that gets old. You grow out of it. Many of nerds have been there.
Give them reasons to come out. Go to a concert with them. Go to a computer convention if that's what they are into. Be creative.
-- Senior Software Engineer, Attorney appearance services, locallawyerapp.com.
> A lot of IMing will *not* prepare you well for -
:) Obviously, it shows up in IM too, but real life conversations are just as bad, if not worse. From personal experience I can say that writing improves my vocabulary and grammar, and when I later speak to real people, I find that my vocabulary and grammar improve then as well.
> nor should be considered the equivalent of -
> "real" face-to-face social interaction.
Easy now. I wasn't suggesting that everyone just live in IM from birth. IM is not supposed to prepare you for anything, and neither is talking on the phone. It is about communication. Sure it is not as rich as a face-to-face meeting, but for most purposes it is perfectly adequate. People don't learn their social skills on IM just as they don't learn to swim by being dropped in the deep end of the ocean. A child does not learn social skills while using IM and I would not expect him to, but does it really matter if he is discussing some mundane subject, like whether there will be a snow day at school tomorrow, which sounds exactly the same on IM, the phone, or in person.
> people act substantially differently in IM-style social interactions
So what? I say it's a great way to see another side of your friend's personality.
> I'd hope not - the telephone is a vastly superior
> "communcations method" than IM from a social perspective.
I would disagree. The phone robs you of all the same things; you see no body language and sound quality is pretty bad, making it harder to understand the subtleties of tone and inflection. At least in text mode you have to be explicit about what you mean, so there is much less chance of misunderstanding. So while I always prefer to meet in person, I would never use a phone when I can email or IM. I'd rather walk eight miles to your house.
> IM is vastly inferior to face-to-face communcations
Not for everything. I don't use IM myself, preferring email, where I can think before I type, but when your purpose is to actually communicate information nothing can beat async text. I can process an enormous amount of email in the time it would have taken me to deal with each person individually; reading is, and always will be, faster than talking. However, if you want to have a party, that's entirely different. There, being together is the whole point of the event, and neither IM, nor email, nor phone, nor any sort of electronic mediator will do.
> Then there's the bad habits, like poor spelling
> and grammar, and shrinking vocabularies
Poor spelling, bad grammar, and small vocabularies are only going to get poorer, worse, and smaller if your kids never write anything. When was the last time you heard a teenager speak? You'd think their entire vocabulary consists of "like", "he goes", and "you know"
Phone? Those are good for when computers aren't there and emergencies, but they aren't a decent substitute for private comunication. The lines are too easy to tap and there is no encryption. Also you can't transmit code or documents on the phone as easily as with email or a RCS.
http://eth0.is-a-geek.org/
This is a nice show of what the internet does to parents. No wonder the kids are so grumpy.
Banning them because they won't go outside and waste their time standing around would prove that you're a moron. Standing over them playing Big Brother proves you're untrustworthy, and that net-surfing should be while your back is turned to prevent you from going psychotic over it. Buying into all the 'net monitor' scams does the same, only with more guarantee of your kids becoming furious with your behavior.
Either way, if you get out of hand and try go off manipulating people, you lose. The stupidest thing you can do in response to unhappy kids is blame something they like and ruin it. Just my two cents.
I am NOT a number! I am a - oh wait, I'm number 761710. Look! 761710!
Well, as one of those internet-obsessed teenagers myself, I know the difficulites inherent in getting people off of the computers. I myself have never left my seat for the last 10 years.
What I would suggest is targeting your anti-internet campaign specifically for these kids:
1. If any of them are health conscious, point them to the many articles detailing the problems that can result over prolonged computer use.
2. Try to appeal to their other interests - maybe buy them a new bike or some other item that will draw them towars and "off the computer" hobby.
3. Start limiting computer time. My parents try to keep it to about one hour of "play" a day and one hour of learning. This works relatively well for my siblings and not at all with me (I think they've given up on me in that regard). You may want to get an internet regulation program like CyberPatrol.
If nothing seems to work, you may need to move to more underhanded tactics:
4. Start making comments about how dumb could one be to spend hours typing little messges to their friends when they could actually meet them in person or talk over the phone.
5. Block their computers using your firewall/router and then claim the internet is down. Then blame it on Verizon. Sooner or later they'll get so frustrated with this that they'll begin to see the rest of the world again.
As a final note, if nothing at all works remember this:
"Spare the rod and spoil the child."*
*As I'm writing this I'm chained to my seat and locked in the basement. Now you know why I've been here for ten years.
- Put the computer in a public place.
- Never allow them to be on the computer later than you are up.
- Carefully explain to them the dangers of porn and predetors (the two Ps)
- Do more things as a family. Specifically, pick a night of the week to always play a game (LAN or otherwise), see a movie, or otherwise be together. We use mondays.
- Turn off the TV. If you yourself are not distracted, you will want company and people will talk with/play with.
These precautions, especially the first two, will protect the kids from from the two Ps. After that, I could see it argued either way that hourly limits are reasonable. While the no computer until homework/chores rule seems logical, I personally would be reluctant to use hourly limitations. I would hope that the last two items would begin to help them participate more in other activites. However, one thing my parents do with my sister is generally not allow her to be on the computer when something obviously "family" is going on: relatives visiting, games being played, and so on. Hope that helps.just block it at the router!
---- Put Sig here:
I too spent countless hours on the computer growing up (Im 25) but my parents strongly encouraged me (not quite force, but close) to go out into the real world, (whatever that is for a teen) and interact with real people. Go play sports, get into a band, ride bikes, or go for a drive when they are old enough. And you know what? I am glad they did.
*HEALTH* I am hearing a lot of people say that their parents never forced them off the computer, and while that may seem fine there is a reason why obesity is a major problem in today's younger generation. With XBOX, Game Cube, PC Games, all offering some sort of interaction with other people, via IM, there is little reason for teens to leave the house. Many teens do not take their health seriously and as a result develop bad habits that continue into their adult years. I am by no means a saint, and I also have bad habits but because my parents encouraged physical exercise those bad habits do not impact me nearly as bad.
*SOCIALIZING* I was a huge geek growing up but I also understood how to talk and interact with people who were not geeks. This is an important skill that will serve them well through their entire lives. Like most teens this skill needs to be nurtured and encouraged just as much if not more than learning a computer. Having had to interact with some of the geeks at M$ I can assure you that this skill is not emphasized enough.
Bottom line is get the kids off the damn computer. There are plenty of things to do off the computer, and it will help them later on down the road. And if all else fails get them an OGO
worship of deity or deities approved of beforehand
Yeah, because you definately shouldn't leave it up to the children to decide what deities they wish to believe in, if any.
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As a 13 year old myself, I hate being told to get off the computer. My parents don't care if I'm programming or chatting. If I'm using Linux or Windows. If you are going to let them keep using the computer, force them to learn how to reinstall Windows (or whatever OS you use). If your computer crashes like mine, (which seems happens on a regular basis) you'll save a lot of money getting your kids to do it for you. Ive gotten to that point where I can reinstall Windows XP Pro in about 2 hours, from format to finish. (But I learned all of this because I wanted to) ;)
Zed_eX: The original menace to society.
you definately shouldn't leave it up to the children to decide what deities they wish to believe in, if any
Of course! I would not let my son worship and unapproved deity just like I wouldn't let him drive my car. Choice of deity is a responsibility that can have concequences. When I feel my son is sufficiently old enough to understand the ramifications of worshiping a particular deity then he can choose. Which, in this particular case, will happen next year.
Last year (his 8th) was the year of Lectures of Why Mommy is an Atheist, Why Daddy is an Agnostic, and Why Grandma is a Baptist. This year (his 9th) is the year of Lectures Upon the Pros and Cons of the Various Religions of the World including The Sampling of Different Rites on Saturdays or Sundays as Applicable Therein. Next year (his 10th) will be the year of Choosing a Religion if so Desired, Subject to Parental Oversight. His 11th year will be the year of Keeping the Parents Informed of Various Religious Choices. Lastly, his 12th year will be the year of The Parents Not Really Caring Anymore for Lo They Have Already Lost Too Much Sleep Over It.
Yeah right. As if the NSA, the CIA or GWB would give a damn if Ann had her date with that hot guy that turned out to be a complete yerk but Frank told me *yadda*yadda*yadda*. This is teen talk, not Wall Street.
why not just build a computer in their heads like Cyborg then they could out side and go on MSN at the same time!
Hello world
But then again, what do I know, by /. standards I'm an ol'timer... but then, so is anyone out of high school.
No man's an island, unless he's had too much to drink and wets the bed.
Speaking as someone who lived that way for a while, then got over it, let me give you some advice:
(1) The worst possible thing you can do would be to monitor their activities online. Don't even snoop around in their history files, logs, etc. If there's something you don't want them doing (looking at porn, etc.) then make sure they know that "if they get caught" that bad things will happen -- but don't take any real steps to enforce it. Unless they do something dumb (leave porn on the screen while they leave the room, etc.) it's n not worth it. Monitoring just breeds an atmosphere of distrust anyway: you want them to trust you, and it's a mutual thing: if you want them to trust you, you have to trust them somewhat.
(2) Encourage them, but in a different way. For the first couple years I was in high school, it was difficult for me to see my friends due to geographic seperation (about 30 min. apart) and even then, my mother didn't really like my friends since she made various unfounded assumptions about the kind of people they were, based on stereotypes and rumor. So, even when I had the time to see them, frequently I couldn't. Assuming you don't think that your children's friends are satan incarnate, encourage them to invite people over. My last few years of high school (when I got fed up with the geographic seperation and found friends who were a lot closer to me) my parents liked the new set of friends a lot better, for whatever reason, and every other week or so I'd have 10-ish people over to my house, and we'd make a nuisance of ourselves, etc. My parents liked it for two reasons: (1) They got to meet my friends, or at least see them in person, rather than just hearing about them, and (2) I was socializing. Now, admittedly, when I had friends in the area, I would never stay home to be on the computer instead of going out with them, but they didn't really catch on to that. So, conclusion: encourage your children to invite their friends to your house. and don't give them too much trouble if the music is loud, or there's people running all over the place.
(3) Since you seem to be the Slashdot parent, I'm sure you've got considerably computer skills. Option 3 is a bit more nefarious: Make the Internet have "issues" whenever you think they've been on it for too much. Whether the issue is "I needed to cut your ethernet cable so I have the full connection, because I'm working from home on an important project" or the issue is "the Internet's been really flaky all day today, something must be wrong up the line somewhere" or "the modem burned out" or anything. Set up some kind of a BSD box...impose bandwidth limits, forced-latency, occasionally remove their NATting so they can't get anywhere, etc. Wage a covert war against it.
(3) is the worst thing you could do, but it is a viable last resort.
I didn't socialize much my first few years of high school, since it was difficult for me both in terms of time and transportation. Then, when I had transportation, I still didn't because my parents made it so difficult for me to do so: call every hour when you're with those people, you have to be back at 11, etc. The "management overhead" involved with seeing those friends was made so high, it was seldom worth it for me to do it, if I had to deal with phoning in every so often, and leave in time to be back by their deadline. Once I started disobeying their restrictions so often they gave up enforcing them, I went out a bit more, but even so the driving time was a pain. I didn't really start doing things in my free time outside of the house, until I found local friends. *shrug* Your milage may vary.
This was all a couple years ago, I'm since out of high school obviously, but those things were my experience.
How long would you let them talk on the phone? MSN may be worse because the computer screen causes eyestrain. I don't allow MSN on my home computer for that reason. Worse, how can they know who they talk to? Once I went into the computer room and found one of my 12-year old daughter's friends installing MSN on the computer. She has not been back to our house. And yes, kids still need fresh air and exercise to grow healthy, even in the 21st century.
I didn't say it was easy for the US gov to legally tap phone lines, just that it's easy to tap them. I just meant that in case of some small chance that s/he wants to say something sensitive (crypto definition, not social definition of sensitive), it's better to commonly use encypted channels so that the rare encrypted message doesn't attract attention.
http://eth0.is-a-geek.org/