An Update on Patrick Volkerding

Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

I, like most of slashdot, send my well-wishes.

Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 03:30 · Score: 5, Insightful

Okay, I send my best wishes... but I am worried.

I'm a doctor at a teaching hospital so we see wierd stuff all the time. I'll give you my sideline quarterbacking of the situation.

First, you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition. A good analogy would be a newbie blindly editing his/her registry. I know its the "hacker" way, but hacking your own body can be dangerous. It's difficult to reboot or reformat the body as a system.

Second, you can't have pulmonary "pops." If you pop a bleb, you develop a pneumothorax... and you are sick as poo. This can be seen on a chest X-ray and typically would need a chest tube to prevent respiratory failure.

He talks about going to Mayo... and multiple ERs. Doctor-shopping raises multiple red-flags.

His sedimentation rate (ESR) is normal. It is very, very difficult to have an infection or inflammatory process with a normal sed rate.

Obviously, I have not examined this guy. He might have a new disease that completely goes against science as we know it. But people come to us for rare medical problems all the time... we love it. When we find something rare, we jump around giving each other high-5s. We spend tons of research and government money trying to figure out these rare case. However...

I'm just not buying in this case.
Re:Best of luck by Davak · 2004-11-26 03:45 · Score: 2, Interesting

Supporting evidence:

ftp://ftp.slackware.com/pub/slackware/slackware-cu rrent/PAT-NEEDS-YOUR-HELP.txt

Rodney has no ability
to directly admit me to a hospital without first sending me to an
infectious disease MD there who would have to agree with all of this.
I have an appointment on Friday.

What did the ID physician say?

All the cases of Actinomycosis I have treated have been pretty easy to diagnose.

Let's just assume for one moment... that this is not physiological possible. (Supratentorial, mental, depression, etc.)

All of this attention is just feeding into the underlying mental illness! By posting this on slashdot, you are blowing this thing way, way out of control.

Why would he do this? Could it be for the free press?

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=19719

http://www.smh.com.au/news/Breaking/Slackware-Li nu x-founder-ill-seeks-help/2004/11/17/1100574504192. html?oneclick=true

Who posts their medical problems out in the public in this way?

By posting this... you are doing more harm than good.
Re:Best of luck by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 04:11 · Score: 2, Insightful

So you honestly think you can make a judgement that this guy isn't sick (and is just a nut) from two postings from the patient on the internet? Why is it there's this heavy tendency among some doctors to not believe the patient? Perhaps his self diagnosis is in error and his own attempts at doctoring are poor, but from his own descriptions it sounds like there's something wrong with him and his doctors can't figure out what it is.

--
AccountKiller
Re:Best of luck by iive · 2004-11-26 04:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm sure Pat would be happy if you could examine him. Could you please provide your contact infromation to him, as he had requested in his first call for help?
Re:Best of luck by vortimax · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 5, Insightful

>First, you have a patient who is trying to
>diagnosis and treat his own condition.

This is usually the only way to get something fixed these days. Most doctors are very resistant to doing anything that could be called diagnosis. Their answer to everything is usually to ask you a few questions, interrupt you after hearing the first sympton they can connect with some common malady, and then decree what's wrong with you. As in Patrick's case, it's common for the doctors to ignore facts which don't fit (after all, how could stupid patients possibly know anything about all that hard "doctor stuff").

Most doctors seems to diagnose everything I get as "something that's going around" and prescribe antibiotics. I usually have to do their research for them and then come back for another visit, demanding the specific tests needed to diagnose the problem (which sometimes requires moving to a more cooperative doctor), and then insist on proper treatment based on the test results.

Fortunately, many medical texts are available online which contain the information needed to self-diagnose. But you still need a competent doctor to perform or authorize tests and prescribe treatments.

Over the years I've found it very rare to meet doctors who actually take an interest in diagnosing an illness by using specific tests to determine the cause instead of just prescribing antibiotics. They are out there, however, and worth looking for. Just don't expect to find one easily. Most doctors seem to be lazy, disinterested, or simply not capable of diagnosing patients. Sturgeon's rule (90% of everything is crap) applies to the field of medicine as much as any other field.

When I find a doctor that resists doing tests that could result in a diagnosis, in favor of randomly prescribing common drugs, and who argues against "doctor shopping" when a doctor is obviously wrong, it raises major red flags for me as a patient and is a good indication that a better doctor is needed ASAP. I hope Patrick can find some competent doctors in time. They're rare.
Re:Best of luck by qcomp · 2004-11-26 04:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

First, you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition. A good analogy would be a newbie blindly editing his/her registry. I know its the "hacker" way, but hacking your own body can be dangerous. It's difficult to reboot or reformat the body as a system.
I think that's a bad analogy: if he was treating himself, it might be like editing the registry. But recording symptoms and diagnosing himself is more like reading (and trying to understand) error messages. That's what even a newbie could and should do. -- Especially if his hacker friend is too busy to listen to his problems...
My best best wishes to Patrick. I hope he gets well soon.
Re:Best of luck by jdybnis · 2004-11-26 04:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

Your's is one of the few posts here by a doctor that doesn't come across as dismissive and arrogant. If I need medical care I hope I have a doctor with similar temperament. Nevertheless if you ignore his self-diagnosis, but assume that he is accurately reporting his symptoms, it is clear that there is something wrong.

Even if what's wrong is not really something life threatening, it is clear that he thinks it is and he is terrified because of it. That should be addressed by the doctors he goes to. Even if it is not rational, or medically justified, his fear should be addressed as a serious symptom of whatever is wrong. This is no different than treating pain. Pain is subjective, it is a symptom of something else, but when it becomes debilitating it is treated directly. Fear should be no different.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 04:33 · Score: 4, Informative

Look, I can appreciate how important this guy is. I respect all of his accomplishments and the things that he has done to help the linux movement. When his story was first posted on slashdot, several of the hospital network gurus came up to me and asked me about it in our CIS meeting.

I assumed that this was posted (like everything else) on slashdot to generate discussion and comments. I did so. If you don't like my opinion, you can set me as your foe and choose to ignore my future posts.

If you were to reread my post, I wasn't giving advice. I was just giving my opinion of his situation.
Re:Best of luck by InternationalCow · 2004-11-26 05:09 · Score: 4, Interesting

I second this. See my previous posts in this regard. A mitral valve prolapse in itself in unspecific. However, some signs noted here (and there I politely disagree with the parent post) MAY point in the direction of bacterial endocarditis. One can have that without elevated ESR. CRP should be elevated too. The way to diagnose this is cardiac ultrasound and multiple blood cultures taken when running a fever of more than 38.5 deg centigrade. That said, I agree with the parent in the red flag department. The self-diagnosis and doctor-hopping don't help. As noted in the previous Patrick Volkerding thread, he should stick with one doctor and let him/her check things out. If no abnormalities are found, the chance of there being a new rare disease is small. I know, because I have indentified several rare "new" diseases myself. Take my word for it: that is non-trivial and requires much double- and triple-checking. I'm worried, too. Meanwhile, my best wishes for a speedy resolution.

--
----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 05:18 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'm a retired MD too. My best advice: go back to the Mayo where you have been and the medicine is at the best level humanity can provide. And do what they advise without any additional doctor shopping. Your faculties are not functioning at their customary and proper level. This old saw applies just as much to patients: "A doctor who treats himself has a fool for a patient and a physician."
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 05:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

Pat doesn't need _another_ doctor. He has had multiple physicians already see him, order labs, radiographis and do H&Ps. He says he visited Mayo. He says he has seen an internal medicine (and maybe an infectious disease) physician. He needs to figure out which of those physicians he trusts... and stick with one.

If I were to see him and if I were to decide that he didn't have some horrible medical illness... would he believe me?

I would likely be included as one of those damn, nonbelieving doctors in his next posted update. Neither he nor I would gain anything from that.
Re:Best of luck by Fnkmaster · 2004-11-26 05:49 · Score: 2, Informative

While I appreciate some of your points and have no reason to disagree with any of your medical analysis, your points about self-diagnosing and doctor-shopping are way off base.

I have gone through this several times with my mother, who has had colon cancer for about 4 years now. In her case, the initial diagnosis was not the problem, that was crystal clear. But when it came to treatment - yes, we did LOTS of doctor shopping and had multiple independent doctors (who were not active clinicians anymore) working as our advisors. Why? Because oncology isn't an exact science and lots of opinions differed substantially. And we are talking about the best doctors at the topmost institutions (we live in New York, so Sloan-Kettering, New York Hospital, Columbia-Presyterian, etc., and eventually in other cities as well).

At the time the opinion of several top-notch oncologists (including Lenny Saltz at Sloan-Kettering) was that she had less than a year to live. She's still around and doing well 4 years later, because we eventually got a surgical consult with a supposedly "fringe" surgical oncologist in Washington DC, Dr. Paul Sugarbaker. His work seems to be vaguely disrespected in the broader medical community because he selects patients based on criteria that they don't like - namely that they have to be young enough and healthy enough to survive and recover from extensive surgery.

Then there was the more recent event where a prominent surgeon in New York operated on her again and insisted that a new tumor she had was a primary cholangiocarcinoma, which the pathologists initially confirmed. I collected evidence, consulted with physicians, gathered old tumor slides and arranged for a comparative pathology analysis with the blessing of her (thankfully cooperative) current oncologist and sure enough, the surgeon was absolutely wrong (it was the same tumor tissue, mutation types and so on, the pathologists had misinterpreted the die stain results to reach the conclusions that the surgeon "wanted").

Had it not been for my insistent diagnostic work, my mother's recurrent cancer would have been misdiagnosed and treated with the wrong drugs. I have also caught several medical errors of other sorts over the last several years. I have unfortunately learned that the only way to get random residents (who are usually the most uncooperative doctors) to listen is to smack them down with a really obnoxious statement about where I went to college (Harvard) and put them in their place. More senior doctors usually know enough to recognize the limitations in their own knowledge and more importantly in the amount of time they have to allocate to each patient, and are usually more cooperative.

Anyway, doctor shopping itself shouldn't raise red flags. In my mother's case the shopping was mostly for treatment options, but I can imagine if the disease was itself rare or difficult to diagnose, one might have to shop around for diagnoses.

I have seen one case among people I know of a paranoid person who doctor shopped until she got the diagnosis she was looking for, which the rest of her doctors believed was wrong - and in that case the doctor-shopping was a sign of hypochondria. In all other cases, it's been justified, and generally the result of my friends being smarter than many of the arrogant doctors who've treated them. I don't claim to have an easy method for separating the hypochondriacs from the reasonably concerned patient who hasn't received a properly comprehensive diagnosis, but I'd say it's far safer to assume that a patient isn't a hypochondriac until proven otherwise, to avoid killing a legitimately concerned patient because they raise supposed "red flags" for you.
Re:Best of luck by madmaxx · 2004-11-26 05:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

I actually had a much different experience, but it was at a children's hospital that was also used for training. The doctors there worked with us (the parents), as if we were part of their team. There were at least a dozen doctors, and each of them would walk us through test results, and didn't ignore the "what about {n}?" questions, to the point that new tests were ordered when things appeared to be missing.

As the doctors were baffled by his condition, they were open to our suggestions and ideas. We were even able to review his chart (and ask questions) whenever we wanted (which is a lot different than most adult-hospitals I've been to).

What impressed me was the huge set of possibilities that the doctors had to consider in their decision tree. Minute facts about our son's case would shift the tree significantly, and the doctors were able to handle this large data set (and the changes) with ease. Their domain is many times more complex than software development, based on the size of the data, the quality of tools, and the integrity of the data logging (people tell many stories). Even better, these doctors were able to make me feel like an equal in a very difficult situation. That in itself is a hard problem.

Over the course of our son's time in the hospital, his condition was characterized in 3 ways. The first two didn't sit well with us, as we had experienced his episodes (heart attacks) first-hand. The doctors trusted us that the diagnosis didn't seem to fit the experience, and they persisted in asking us questions, and analysing the test results until something fit. It was amazing.

I've had other hospital experiences that were much worse, but the good ones are out there.

--
mx
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 05:57 · Score: 4, Interesting

You describe a major problem in medicine today... I call it the "acute care" syndrome.

People get sick (usually with a viral illness), they go to the doctor and want a quick fix. The doctor is given two choices...

1. "It's a virus." No antibotic and educate the patient as much as possible.
2. "It's an 'infection'" and get the patient out with an antibotic.

So if doctors do the right thing and do #1, then the patients are unhappy. Doctors get tired of fighting for no reason and get bitter. This happens everyday in every "acute care" center in the US.

Now think of this in relation other common diseases that doctors can't fix. They can either prescribe different medications or they can try to educate the patient.

The only time education is appreciated and believed is when it comes from a physician that you know and trust. But who has a doctor (dentist, lawyer, mechanic, etc.) that they personally know anymore?

Yeah, it's sad for us too...
Re:Best of luck by 53cur!ty · 2004-11-26 06:00 · Score: 3, Informative

Please excuse my sarcasm and distaste in advance.

Patrick, don't listen to this #$%@ doctor, keep reading and fighting for your health. If you are reading this patrick please remember to remind your doctor's you have a brain, and read up on patient rights. If you get really frustrated ask to speak to the Hospital Administrator the next time you are in the ER. Nothing says action like calling the Money, I mean boss. If it is the weekend ask for the nurse or doctor admin that is covering the hospital (not just the ward).

Now to the response...

Being a simple-minded newbie like Patrick I can't imagine how I can attempt to respond to...a doctor on the subject of medicine!

I will vouch for your credentials since you start by exposing your ego! "you have a patient who is trying to diagnosis and treat his own condition"

A few questions:

How could an intelligent patient that is not a doctor possibly understand all this medical stuff! How could the patient understand what they are experiencing! How is it a doctor can read and contribute to /. but a patient cannot read and contribute to their own care?

I am not just spouting crap here, I am truly empathetic for Patrick's plight. I have had years of medical problems (now I'm fine) and ten times as many frustrations with egotistical doctors that don't listen. I could easily write a book of my experiences recounting when doctors where down right wrong.

I am not saying that the patient is always right however reasons should be given why they are wrong, with the proof to back it up (journals, etc). The patient knows his/her body best.

The 'pop' Patrick described could have been his mitral valve failing, which would not show on an x-ray. So there is just one counter diagnosis to your words of wisdom.

Let me demonstrate the extent an ego can interfere with care. My with had to be on coumadin (blood thinner) after about 3 weeks she began to develop sever pain in here right leg and foot. We called the doctor, he immediately put her on nerve pain medicine attributing it to a pinched nerve. The pain increased over the course of a week (with the new meds). In frustration I (close your ears children) began to research coumadin side-effects. The doctor swore that was impossible and that side effects to coumadin would present themselves within the first week. (he was wrong, read on). My reason for thinking it was the coumadin was the pain increased immediately after a shot and decreased steadily until the next shot. Seemed logical but a doctor would surely know better!

Desperate to help my wife I called the drug company who makes coumadin, I got their medical advice line (for doctors). I didn't identify myself but let them assume, after all the reading I had done I could talk the talk. Regardless after 3 hours on the phone with a doctor and pharmacist from the drug company (longer then our doctor had ever spent with us). They diagnosed my wife with a rare reaction to coumadin known as 'Purple Toe Syndrome'. They faxed me 30+ pages of case studies, documentation, etc. to back up their diagnosis. I read through it all, it was correct.

You know what the doctor did when I called him with the evidence? First he wouldn't get on the phone. I told his secretary he had 3 minutes to call or I called the administrator with the proof (he called in 2). He refused to believe me or the drug companies documentation saying well I have never heard/seen such a thing! Despite my wife recovering exactly as the drug company described, the doctor to this day still refuses to acknowledge he was wrong.

This is who you are dealing with Patrick. I hope you have someone to help you fight since it takes as much energy to get good health care as it does being sick.

God speed on your recovery, continue to ask questions, you are intelligent and more interested in your care then the doctors are.

Remember when you leave their office/ward, the doctor see more patien
Re:Best of luck by francisew · 2004-11-26 06:00 · Score: 2, Interesting

No clue how to reach Pat, so I'll assume he will be thoroughly reading the responses to the post. I understand his email would otherwise become unuseable.

I noticed last week that in British Columbia (Canadian west coast), a tropical fungal infection has been on the rise. It's often misdiagnosed, and it's been a bit of a problem in B.C. recently.

Take a look: CBC story from 23 Nov 2004, and CBC story from 25 Nov 2004.

Cryptococcus neoformans infection seems to cause serious lung and CNS problems. It's also contracted from spores in the air, so it could explain how it could have come from nowhere.

Whatever the problem turns out to be, good luck in getting better. Have you tried going to the media in your area? *Mystery Illness Baffles Doctors* I'm sure some local health professionals will help then! Perhaps it would also help to *ONLY* answer questions the doctors ask, instead of giving a huge number of details (some of which may be completely irrelevant to the core problem) that overwhelm them.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 06:03 · Score: 4, Informative

Those are very kind words... and I appreciate them greatly.

One of the reasons I stay in a teaching hospital is so I will not be pressured by the marketplace to see X number of patients per day.

Sometimes I see 4 in a morning... sometimes I see only one or two patients. I am in a unique position.

By the average person allowing HMOs, insurance, and the government to try to control medical costs... the system is now completely broken. Fossils like me hide out in teaching colleges where, for now, we have some insulation from the marketplace.
Re:Best of luck by coaxial · 2004-11-26 06:07 · Score: 4, Insightful

Fortunately, many medical texts are available online which contain the information needed to self-diagnose.

When I read this I was reminded of what my abnormal psych professor said at the start of class. "Don't start reading ahead. Don't just open the DSM-IV and start reading about wierd psychological problems. You're all perfectly normal and sane. When we study obsessive compulsive disorders, all of you are going to start thinking, 'I have these symptoms. I have OCD!'. You don't. When we start start reading about schizophrenia and people talking to themselves, and hearing voices, you're going to think, 'Wow! I talk to myself all the time. I'm schizo!'. You're not. None of you have the training or experience to diagnose anything. Don't act like you do."

Everytime you change doctors, you're starting the diagnosis over at step one. When you come in and say "I have disease X. Give me xyzzy, that new perscription drug I've seen on tv." The doctor thinks, "hypochondriac".

The reason he initially thinks it's "the thing going around", is because 90% of the time it is. Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that. Instead of actually going back to the doctor in two weeks like he suggested, you go to another doctor who says, "Hypochondriac. Take the antibiotic and come back in two weeks if it's not working." Instead of moving to step 2, you've decided to shop around until you find someone who is willing to start at step 6. No wonder it's hard for you to find a doctor.
Re:Best of luck by BoldAC · 2004-11-26 06:18 · Score: 4, Informative

Quote: "One can have that without elevated ESR."

I completely agree... thanks for clearing that up. I'll even support your clarification for you. :)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cm d= Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=9108181

The objective of this study was to evaluate the sensitivity of C-reactive protein (CRP) elevation compared to erythrocyte sedimentation rate (ESR), leucocyte count and thrombocyte count in the diagnosis of infective endocarditis (IE). It was designed as a prospective study of suspected episodes of IE in adults in tertiary care at a university-affiliated department of infectious diseases. In 89 episodes of IE, CRP was available from the start of treatment. Median age was 66 years, 45 were men and 44 women. Median CRP concentration was found to be 90 (range 0-357) mg/l with only 4% normal values. Episodes involving native valves had higher CRP than episodes occurring with prosthetic valves. Staphylococcal origin, short duration of symptoms, short duration of fever and highest recorded temperature all correlated to higher CRP levels. The CRP response was also prominent among patients > 70 years old. Among non-responders, a few cases with simultaneous cirrhosis were noted. ESR was less sensitive than CRP, with a normal level in 28% of the episodes. It was concluded that CRP determination is superior to erythrocyte sedimentation rate, leucocyte count and thrombocyte count in the diagnosis of infective endocarditis.
Re:Best of luck by Kismet · 2004-11-26 08:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

Hear, hear.

I once got sick enough where I thought I was paying for my sins before I died. I got on the Internet to see what my problem was, and had myself convinced that I had acute pancreatitis.

So I went to the doctor, with a semi-knowledge of acute pancreatitis, and described some of the symptoms I had read about. What was the result? Well, the doctor thought I might have acute pancreatitis. We did a rather expensive battery of tests to check for pancreatitis, kidney stones, gallstones, etc. etc. Nothing turned up.

By that evening I felt fine. It turned out to be some simple gastritis (probably due to some NSAIDs I was taking - without doctor supervision - for my tendonitis).

I sent myself to the ER because I tried diagnosing my own problem. I was fine, but I had to pay the price. It ain't cheap.
Re:Best of luck by tzanger · 2004-11-26 08:23 · Score: 2, Funny

Sturgeon's rule (90% of everything is crap)

So Sturgeon was a proctologist, was he?
Re:Best of luck by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 10:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

It saddens me to see these postings. My aunt went to her doctor with stomach pain, and was told "It's all in your mind". They refused to give her any tests. She complained, and complained and after 3-4 years they decided to shut her up and send her to take some tests. As it turned out, they were too late, she had incurable cancer. If they had taken her serious when she first complained, she might be alive today.

I have enourmous respect for doctors, but it scares me that some are so willing to write things up as hypocondria or wanting to get press.
Re:Best of luck by winwar · 2004-11-26 12:54 · Score: 2, Insightful

"...None of you have the training or experience to diagnose anything. Don't act like you do."

Funny, that seems to apply to a good proportion of the doctors I have seen. Things they (doctors) have not diagnosed when symptoms were obvious to someone in their field (or failed to send me to another doctor) have included: TMJ problems manifested as ear pain, went to ENT, nothing wrong), pinched nerve in neck (neurologist said nothing wrong), etc. These were eventually treated properly by GOOD doctors-who were incredulous that the original specialists missed the problem. The only reason they were diagnosed by doctors?-because I switched doctors and came up with the proper diagnosis at least in part.

Sorry, but most medicine is merely following flow charts. Sure, experience and training is useful (how you become an expert), but if you miss an important piece of information (or won't consider it) your diagnosis will be wrong. And no better than an "untrained" person who has a clue.

Currently with my known medical problems, I know more than most specialists. In other words, any advice a doctor gives me will likely be WRONG. Frankly, if I didn't need them for presciptions and tests, I wouldn't go. Hell, if I want to get better treatment for migraines, for instance, I would have to travel out of Columbus, OH to do it, and Columbus isn't a small town. AFAIK, I have exhausted the "useful" knowledge locally. The best ones realize they don't know everything and say this-they don't use you as a guinea pig without your consent.

Some other points:

"The reason he initially thinks it's "the thing going around", is because 90% of the time it is. Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that."

If that is his sole reason, he/she is a poor doctor. I mean, that is no better than saying, I think I have symptoms x, y, z and need drug A.

"Only when that treatment fails, will the doctor move off that. Instead of actually going back to the doctor in two weeks like he suggested..."

More likely, the doctor doesn't know one way or another and is unwilling to admit that. So, give a drug and get the patient out the door. Come back in two weeks if it is worse. As far as I am concerned, that is code for "I don't give a damn" or "I can't find anything wrong, so it is all in your head, quit bothering me". In simple terms, the reason/rationale for the treatment needs to be EXPLAINED. Is this the best way?, the cheapest?, the quickest?, etc. If doing nothing is the best treatment, say so.

Unfortunately, I have had a heck of a lot of doctors (most of them) treat this job more as a help desk position (get them out as quickly as possible whether or not the problem has been solved...) than a healing position. I could accept that if they were charging me help desk rates. But they are charging me consultant rates (hundreds of dollars an hour equivalent) and I expect GOOD service for that price.

Humour by balster+neb · 2004-11-26 02:34 · Score: 4, Insightful

"Netcraft does not yet confirm it"

Great to see he's kept his sense of humour.

Good luck Pat by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 02:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

Pat is one of the heros of the Linux movement, like Donald Becker, or Andre Hedrick, people without whom running linux would be an impossible task. Pat, good luck, hang in there!

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

Re:Good luck Pat by phaln · 2004-11-26 03:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

Slackware is the distro that got me interested in Linux in the first place. Best of luck my friend, and I send you all the best wishes for a speedy recovery.

--
SNACKS ARE AWESOME

Well... by Blue-Footed+Boobie · 2004-11-26 02:38 · Score: 3, Insightful

It seems like you keep jumping around to all the different ER's in the area...

What does your actual Doctor think of everything that is going on? You do have a family doctor, right?

Keep this up and the next /. post is going to be your Obituary. Not being a troll, but you need to stop with the games and ge tthis fixed.

--
DAMN YOU OCTODOG! DAMN YOU TO HELL!

Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 04:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

I know quite a few doctors. None of them are Gods. Some of them have a high opinion of themselves (like the majority of the Slashdot population, or the general population for that matter), which can make them hard to deal with. I have a hard time dealing with most people, though, so YMMV. They all get trained for rare illnesses. If only routine stuff came in, then we wouldn't need doctors, just checklists.

I tend to agree with the GP, though. Continuity of care is essential to getting treated. Between his posts, I can't tell if Patrick has ever seen the same doctor twice. When you see a doctor, they treat the most likely cause, and schedule a follow-up. If you aren't making progress at the follow-up, then they move on to other treatments. If you go to a different doctor in the meantime, you start the process over, and none of them really know your history.

I am a Slackware user, and I have a lot of respect for Patrick. It is quite possible that he is slipping through the huge cracks in our medical system, and that would be tragic. It is also possible that his do-it-youself approach and his lack of faith in his doctors is making him not take the best course of action, and it may kill him. I'm not in a good position to tell which of these scenarios is more likely.

I hope he finds a good doctor that he respects, and who takes an active interest in him. That way they can work together instead of fighting each other. All I can do is sit back and watch.

Bacterial, not viral by wa1hco · 2004-11-26 02:47 · Score: 4, Insightful

He thinks normal mouth baterial got into his lungs.
Which can happen.
Med Labs routinely ignore mouth bateria in samples.
Antibiotics tailored to leave them alone.
Antibiotics don't work on virii, at all.
Needs old fashioned or special antibiotics.
Some heart disease caused by infection.
Still learning how much disease caused by infection.
Doctors don't do unusual very well.
Needs to get lucky with right doctor.
Nothing wrong with defending yourself.

Re:Bacterial, not viral by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:15 · Score: 5, Interesting

For what it's worth I spent 12 years in psych treatment, under the care of docs and on various antidepressants and psych drugs because my constantly low energy levels were put down to depression. I felt like shit, the world felt like shit, and it was all put down to me not wanting to take part in life.

Then my GP retired, I picked up a new one who gave me a going over, and it took him 5 minutes to diagnose a chronic low level tonsil infection. You have no idea how good it's felt since I had those fuckers out. 12 goddamned wasted years because doctors couldn't be bothered with the simple things.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by euthman · 2004-11-26 03:39 · Score: 5, Informative

Medical laboratories do not "routinely ignore mouth bacteria in samples." Bacterial endocarditis is diagnosed by blood culture, and any bacterium that grows in a blood culture is dutifully reported to the doctor.
The only time we don't report out normal mouth bacteria is when we are working with a specimen from, uh, the mouth.

--
Ed Uthman, MD
Pathologist, Houston/Richmond, TX, USA
Re:Bacterial, not viral by starm_ · 2004-11-26 06:22 · Score: 2, Interesting

I had mono about 5-6 years ago (I was 18 years old at the time), and I'm just starting to feel better now. I also had weird allergies that made me tired. I even quit my job one summer (two year after I got mono) because I was too tired. This year I feel I'm getting better. What made the biggest difference was starting Yoga. I think it's the breathing in yoga that helped me. For some reason when I got mono I think it changed my body rhythm. It mostly affected the way I was breathing. I wasn't breathing enough. It's my girlfriend that noticed that I seemed to be breathing very little especially when I was concentrating (coding in from of the computer or something) The fact that I constantly didn't have enough air made gave me all sorts of trouble including low energy, difficulty at doing exercise, difficulty sleeping etc. I think I'm also the nervous type and Yoga help control that too. I've gotten used to breathing more and in a more relaxed way. I have increased my body rhythm in general. I feel more alert and without having to take coffee or other stimulus (like things that make me nervous) and I feel better since. I'm not even doing the Yoga anymore. I think I just had to do it for a while to learn the concepts. My body just acts better naturally now.
Re:Bacterial, not viral by drix · 2004-11-26 06:55 · Score: 2, Funny

And with that I'd like to again suggest a new /. modification criterion, "-4 No sense of humor whatsoever".

--

I think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.

he scares me by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Interesting

I hope he was cynical when he said this:
"Anyway, I'm still hoping to get the treatment that I'm sure I need, but if there's an insistance on clinical proof first and treatment second, the proof might be found at autopsy time."

Re:he scares me by kfg · 2004-11-26 03:06 · Score: 3, Funny

I hope he was cynical when he said this:

Of course he was, but then so was B. P. Roberts when he had "I told you I was sick" inscribed on his crypt.

Cynical humor is the best way to stay sane when you're dead.

KFG

Re:Plan Of Action by gaj · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Informative

He said in his message that he'd gone to the Mayo Clinic. There are bigger cities than Rochester, MN, but not better clinics. Mind you, there may well be a clinic of the same caliber that has more experts in infectuous disease ... that I do not know, but just because a city is larger doesn't mean it has better facilities.

He found the Oregano oil ... by puzzled · 2004-11-26 02:48 · Score: 3, Informative

At least he found the Oregano oil ... that stuff is like swallowing napalm as far as any bacterial/yeast stuff - it'll pretty much toast anything bothering you in about forty eight hours. Can't understand the part about it tasting good, however, as concentrated Oregano oil *burns* like the hottest hot sauce you've ever seen and it keep on burning for *hours*. You put it in a gel cap and swallow with *a lot* of water.

Hope Patrick is feeling better soon - cardiac stuff is scary++ and the things he describes are going to cause him long term troubles even if he does recover :-(

--
I am very easy to get along with, but I don't have time to waste being nice to people who are being stupid. -Theo

Re:He found the Oregano oil ... by SgtChaireBourne · 2004-11-26 03:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well, if you want to bring up anecdotal cures, I'll suggest stocking up on comedies from the black and white era, especially the old silent ones. You may have to visit a film archive and rent an 8mm or 16mm, but you won't get a better laugh out of the lame stuff circulating these days in place of comedies.
Enjoyment has been tied to improved immune function and when it comes down to it with or without anti-biotics his immune system is what has to kick the bacteria.
From time to time you read anecdotes about people kicking illnesses through humor or just deciding to kick back and have fun on the way out. (I guess, though, those are self selecting, You don't usually hear, "well, I tried that, but it killed me anyway...) Myself, as a kid I once got sicker and sicker for months, despite lots of medical treatment, the turning point for me was the b&w and silent comedies. Can't say for sure that's what did it, but at least it was entertaining. YMMV

--
Beta is broken and the link to classic doesn't work. Stop wasting our time or there won't be anybody left here.

He needs to relax by inkey+string · 2004-11-26 02:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

This man is very intelligent, and does his job very well.

Unfortunately, these advantages can quickly turn into a liability. In the same way that a doctor may end up losing his shirt when he starts daytrading, experience and competence in one area does not necessarily translate to the next. Confidence however, generally does.

He's frequently using medical terms in very poor "context" for lack of a better expression. While technically appropriate, it ends up reading more like an essay written by someone who used a thesaurus too often without knowing exactly what the words mean.

He has been to many doctors, and all of them have found little to nothing wrong. This is drastically different from his own assessment of looming death. Statistically, from the number and variety of doctors he's visited, a false negative at this point is incredibly unlikely. As the saying goes, when everyone else is wrong, you're probably wrong yourself.

Yes, it is important to verify information and diagnoses given to you. But it isn't critical evaluation to assume a conclusion from day one, and stick to it regardless of multiple, consistent, informed opinion.

But then again, if he ends up dying from some bizarre rare disease, I'm going to feel pretty bad about this post.

Re:He needs to relax by Anonymous Coward · 2004-11-26 03:08 · Score: 3, Interesting

that may be true but ive read many horror stories of people going to tons of doctors and not getting diagnosed, then finding out they did have a problem and it was fixable but its now too late

check out http://www.nnff.org/

its a site filled with stories from survivors of that flesh eating disease.. most of the stories talk about going to several doctors and not being diagnosed correctly until they're almost dead
Re:He needs to relax by RangerElf · 2004-11-26 03:17 · Score: 5, Interesting

But then again, if he ends up dying from some bizarre rare disease, I'm going to feel pretty bad about this post.

Yes you will, because you know --even if you don't admit it-- that the medical industry in the US is very, very out of touch with the actual needs of people, and more in touch the the "needs" of big pharma.

I've seen it first-hand, with the death of my brother-in-law, what doctors do in order to not make "controversial" actions, and not make a wrong prognosis (any prognosis, actually).

So, what's happening? No hospital will take Patrick in without a definitive diagnosis, and no doctor will make the diagnosis without proof, and the proof is inside Pat right now (biopsy), so it has to be obtained in a hospital, and no hospital will take Patrick in without a definitive diagnosis... (ad nauseam).

It really sux to be in his situation right now, I hope he finds a real MD which will listen to him, and make actual decisions.

Hang on Pat, you'll find him soon enough.

-gus
Re:He needs to relax by cmason · 2004-11-26 04:03 · Score: 4, Insightful

He has been to many doctors, and all of them have found little to nothing wrong. ... Statistically, from the number and variety of doctors he's visited, a false negative at this point is incredibly unlikely.
I can't disagree with this strongly enough. This is very true for common illnesses, but very untrue for rare ones. I should know: I was recently diagnosed with Hodgkin's Lymphoma, a rare cancer of the lymph system that about 8,000 people will be diagnosed with this year in the US [1]. I had the symptoms of it (swollen glands, itchiness; ie very nonspecific symptoms) for nigh on 3 years, and had presented repeatedly to multiple doctors, all of whom missed the forest for the trees. I knew something was wrong with me (even, I think subconciously, that I had cancer), but I believed the doctors when they diagnosed allergies, or mononucleosis, or some other prosiac illness. It was not until the disease had spread extensively until it was drop dead obvious that something was really wrong.
I agree with the spirit of your post: he should let the doctors do the diagnosing. However, he should very strongly try to find the right doctors. Just like programmers, there's a huge disparity in talent between the good and the mediocre. Luckily, I found some good ones (I work at Mayo Clinic), and I'm doing much better now.
-c
[1] http://www.lymphomainfo.net/hodgkins/incidence.htm l

--
"If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.
Re:He needs to relax by Twylite · 2004-11-26 04:10 · Score: 4, Insightful

Dude. The other day, a porn site popped up on my computer. Just popped up ; I didn't click anything. I ran Norton Anti-virus. I ran AVG. I ran ad-aware and spybot. I checked Windows update, I rebooted, I swore. Everything told me my computer was fine. Clearly it is, and I am mistaken.

--
i-name =twylite [http://public.xdi.org/=twylite], see idcommons.net
Re:He needs to relax by iive · 2004-11-26 05:02 · Score: 3, Funny

Dude. The other day, a porn site popped up on my computer. Just popped up ; I didn't click anything. I ran Norton Anti-virus. I ran AVG. I ran ad-aware and spybot. I checked Windows update, I rebooted, I swore. Everything told me my computer was fine. Clearly it is, and I am mistaken.
It is only in your imagination, you pervert!! ;-)
Re:He needs to relax by Bastian · 2004-11-26 05:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

Frequently the problem isn't the needs of the big pharmaceutical companies or what have you. It's that nowadays one of the biggest driving motives for a doctor is to not get sued. When you go into the hospital, you are most likely going to get handled in a very by-the-book, mechanical manner, and this is because stepping out of line even a little bit looks terrible in court.
Re:He needs to relax by bigjocker · 2004-11-26 06:15 · Score: 2, Interesting

You could not be more insightful.

My brother has a problem with his inmune system that went unnoticed by doctors for a long time. He has been in and out of clinics his whole life. At one point he developen an infection in one knee that wouldn't stop with anything, even as he was being treated on the best clinic in town (the same he went to all his life). The knee problem only got worse and worse, even after being for over a month in the clinic.

Thank God my parents are biologists, and took the task to themselves to do research over this issue. When they found the first clues to what it was all doctors dismissed them, even being my dad highly regarded in his area of research. It was not after a long time had gone by that they had prepared a whole scientific case and presented it so strongly that the doctors said 'well, lets check if this could be the case'. It turned out my parents were right and for over two months the doctors were treatring my brother the wrong way.

I don't know, and don't want to imagine what had happened if the doctors had kept the same treatment for a few more months, as the infection was growing and, at the time the treatment was changed, it had taken over the whole leg. One month later my brother was out of the clinic.

--
Life isn't like a box of chocolates. It's more like a jar of jalapenos. What you do today, might burn your ass tomorrow.

Comment removed by account_deleted · 2004-11-26 02:54 · Score: 2, Interesting

Comment removed based on user account deletion

Check him in by LiquidCoooled · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 3, Funny

Lots of people are saying he should be checking himself into a clinic.

I personally think he should be checked into CVS.

Thats way, at least we have a backup..just in case :(

--
liqbase :: faster than paper

recent trend by untaken_name · 2004-11-26 02:56 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients. I have recurring tonsilitis that I get at least once a year and usually more. I have been going through this since I was 6, when the doctors refused to take my tonsils out even though my mother wanted them to. Now the blood vessels are too big to make it a safe operation. Anyhow, I know what needs to be done and what I am suffering from, as I've been dealing with this for 23 years. However, I find that I have to make appointments with 3 or 4 doctors before I find one that listens to me at all. The others will go 'uh huh, uh huh, yeah, uh huh.' Then they give me some test for strep throat or send me away with a low dose of penicillin or something else that doesn't help me get better. Why is it that even if we use technical terms, doctors won't listen? Mr. Volkerding clearly at least has *some* idea of what he's talking about, and I find it sickening that his doctors are paying so little attention to what he says. I don't even like it when it happens to me with a much less serious condition, I can't even imagine the frustration I would feel were I seriously ill and my doctor treated me with that much contempt. Health care costs keep rising, doctors keep leaving the high litigation states, and the ones who are left don't listen to (or even seem to care about) their patients... This is a serious problem that needs a solution fast.

--
http://xkcd.com/386/

Re:recent trend by Beetjebrak · 2004-11-26 04:36 · Score: 2, Interesting

Same goes for tech.. We don't listen to end users proposing a solution to their problem when they call the helpdesk. In fact, it's annoying to get wise-ass end users on the line. We're just as guilty as the doctors!

--
Learn from the mistakes of others. There isn't enough time to make them all yourself.
Re:recent trend by chud67 · 2004-11-26 05:14 · Score: 3, Insightful

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients.
I have noticed this too. Now before I say what I'm about to say let me just preface my comments by saying that I'm a conservative with a lot of doctors in my family, and in the past I have been staunchly against socialized medicine and gov't involvement in medicine. However recent events involving my mom's medical condition have led me to change my views.
A few years ago my mom was having lots of problems and went to her general practitioner (g.p.). The gp wanted to do all kinds of strange tests and procedures that didn't seem to really relate to the symptoms she was describing (my dad is an ophthalmologist so he had some idea that something strange was going on). It seemed to me that the doctor was trying to do procedures and tests that he knew my mom's insurance would cover and that he would get paid for. This went on for a while and my mom never could find out what was wrong.
A couple of months later we were in Rome and my mom collapsed in St Peters Basilica. We took her to an emergency room in Rome and a young doctor talked to her and my dad and asked them what her symptoms were. He seemed genuinely interested and listened to what she had to say. Since she had described symptoms that seemed to relate to circulation and her heart he did the obvious: he did an ultrasound of her chest area and found that she indeed had a circulation problem and isolated exactly where it was. Why didn't the American doctors think of doing this simple and obvious test?!? Well I may be cynical, but I believe they didn't do it because there was no money in it for them to do an ultrasound since it probably wasn't on the HMO/PPO's list of 'approved' tests that the doctor would get paid for.
By the way, the italian ER doctor gave my mom some medicine and advice about how to proceed when she went back to America, and didn't charge her a dime. It was incredible to have a doctor genuinely care about a patient and do everything he could for her, and have the issue of money not even come up at all (although my parents were willing and able to pay if they had been asked to).
After returning to America my mom was able to explain to her American doctors what the problem was and is now able to actually get proper treatment.
Now don't get me wrong, there are many good doctors in America, however their attitude towards their patients is affected by the environment that they do business in. For example, one of my relatives (who is a doctor) told me that with HMOs your doctor ceases to be your advocate and becomes your adversary. Why? Because of capitation; the doctor gets paid a set amount per month and if more patients than usual come in one month then his profit per patient is lower. It is in the doctor's best interest (business-wise) to see you as little as possible because he gets paid the same whether you're there or not. This and many other rules that insurance companies force upon doctors force the doctors, no matter how much they want to care for their patients, to view the patient as an adversary that is costing them money.
I don't know if socialized medicine (a la 'Hillary') is the answer, but certainly our current medical/insurance industry is a problem.
Re:recent trend by FurryFeet · 2004-11-26 05:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) computer support seem less and less likely to actually listen to their users. I have recurring popups in my PC that I get at least once a day and usually more. I have been going through this since the PC was new, when the techies refused to change the hard disk even though I wanted them to. Now I have too many files to make it a safe operation. Anyhow, I know what needs to be done and what I am suffering from, as I've been dealing with this for years. However, I find that I have to make appointments with 3 or 4 techies before I find one that listens to me at all. The others will go 'uh huh, uh huh, yeah, uh huh.' Then they give me some spyware checkers, or antivirus, or something else that doesn't help me get better. Why is it that even if we use technical terms, techies won't listen? Mr. Volkerding clearly at least has *some* idea of what he's talking about, and I find it sickening that his techies are paying so little attention to what he says. I don't even like it when it happens to me with a much less serious condition, I can't even imagine the frustration I would feel if my PC was hosed and the techies treated me with that much contempt. Tech support costs keep rising, techies keep getting fired, and the ones who are left don't listen to (or even seem to care about) their users... This is a serious problem that needs a solution fast.
Re:recent trend by dasunt · 2004-11-26 08:47 · Score: 2, Informative

I've noticed that in the last few years (maybe it's just my perspective, I don't know) doctors seem less and less likely to actually listen to their patients. I have recurring tonsilitis that I get at least once a year and usually more. I have been going through this since I was 6, when the doctors refused to take my tonsils out even though my mother wanted them to.

So basically, you are trusting your mother's medical judgement over your doctor's medical judgement?

IANAD, but googling, there seems to be some debate in the medical community about the value of tonsillectomies in children, especially considering that they sometimes grow back. According to the usual sources, roughly one in twenty tonsillectomies require emergency surgery days later to stop bleeding.

Sure, a lot of the bedside manner of doctors couleld be improved, but the average doctor probably knows more than you. If you go to several experts and discount their diagnosises, perhaps you are right -- but I would bet that the majority of the time, you would be wrong.

As for the antibiotics, let me tell you a tale:

About a year ago, I got pretty damn sick. In my own manner, I stayed in bed. I didn't drink all the fluids I should have, and became a tad dehydrated. On the way to the loo, the floor moved sideways, and I ended up falling down, which was the point my wife ended up taking me to urgent care.

After a bit of saline, and a few tests, the doctors prescribed some antibiotics. Being a well-read lad, I asked about if they were really effective -- how did he know that I had a bacterial infection rather than a virus.

The answer was interesting. He admitted he didn't know. But in a large percentage of people with my symptoms, it was due to a bacterial infection. The antibiotics cost less then the lab work, and the lab work took time, meaning that if I did have a bacterial infection, I wouldn't get effective treatment until after the tests.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by Welsh+Dwarf · 2004-11-26 02:57 · Score: 3, Informative

Seriously, if you kept yourself informed, you'd realise by now that Pat was _never_ self medicating, when he was on antibiotics it was always under perscription.

--
Ask 8 slackers a question, get 10 awnsers (a citation, but I can't remember from who)

Re:Jeez... by Sai+Babu · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 3, Informative

Finding a good doc is like finding a sysadmin (or car mechanic, or plumber, or electronics engineer) who actually knows how things work as opposed to being adept at the 'good practices' dance.

About 15 years back a friend had psittacosis that was so bad they had him on IV antibiotics for a year. It's pretty rare in humans and usually not so severe.

It took him forever to find a doc who recognized what he had.

I'm no doc, but common sense would suggest that if symptoms suggest an infectious agent, sampling and investigation of the site of infection would be in order.

As for docs, I had one who looked at an x-ray of my hand in which three bones were clearly broken with a good 3/8 inch between the broken ends and tell me that my hand was fine! Even the x-ray tech didn't see the breaks. It was a surreal experience. Ditto for my moms fractured pelvis (she fell through a rotten section of floor in a building we we're thinking of buying). X-ray tech and doctor did not see the fracture until I pointed it out on the film. They were going to send her home with some pain killers!

Last example was bicep torn completely off the bone in my forearm. Pretty obvious something was wrong. Bicep all bunched up near my shoulder. It was the THIRD doctor who looked at it that finally agreed something was wrong (although he still misdiagnosed). Finally found a good orthpedist who had seen the condition (pretty unusual) before.

--
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!

What scares me.. by Chicane-UK · 2004-11-26 02:59 · Score: 2, Informative

Is that because none of the doctors or hospitals are able to immediately diagnose these problems, they are just sending him away.

Surely they should have him in until they get to the bottom of this! Our NHS may be in pretty rough shape but you if staggered into hospital with some of the symptoms he has been having, he'd be in a bed and getting looked at and wouldn't be allowed to leave until he was fixed up, or at least they had identified the problem and knew how dangerous it was and what they needed to do to fix it!

Scary, really scary. Good luck Patrick.

--
"Hey! Unless this is a nude love-in, get the hell off my property!!"

RTFM by DarthBobo · 2004-11-26 03:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

This fucking ridiculous.

If he is as sick as he says, _any_ physician would insist on having him hospitalized and having multiple consultants see him (notably, infectious disease and oncology.) He symptoms suggest a progressive disease that requires agressive intervention - and that doesn't mean trials of expensive antibiotics.

He has either failed to see a primary care physician, or he has refused appropriate treatment and admission to a hospital. In either case, as an educated, intelligent man he has made his own decision. Slashdot should not be contributing to his decline by enabling his poor decisions. He needs to be told flat out by his friends that they are not going to work with him until he agrees to admission and workup at a major teaching hospital (which, by the way, will have access to every antibiotic in the world.)

--
+--------------------- You idiot! I told you we were facing the wrong way!

Re:RTFM by the_rev_matt · 2004-11-26 03:40 · Score: 3, Insightful

You're clearly not familiar with HMO's. The purpose of doctors in that context is to minimize the expense of caring for people, not to do everything reasonably possible to nurse them back to health.

I think it's great that we've taken the tricky work of medical care out of the hands of doctors and given accountants the authority to make all the life and death decisions.

--
this is getting old and so are you
blog

Scary is right... by Gothmolly · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

If this is the same NHS that wastes money on novacaine shots for people donating blood, who, after you donate, suggest that you go drink some caffeine, and if you have a non-life-threatening problem (ingrown toenail), you get bumped FOR YEARS waiting for surgery? I was there, I paid for it, I have the NHS card to prove it. And it sucks.

--
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.

The problem with doctors... by siskbc · 2004-11-26 03:01 · Score: 5, Insightful

...is that he self-medicated for a long time. If he had gone to a doctor right from the start, he'd be probably fine by now. Seriously.

No, the problem is that he went to a doctor at the start, who told him nothing was wrong. He repeated that about 10 times. In the meantime, he tried to find out what was wrong with him because 1) he has more time than the GPs and crappy specialists he saw, 2) he cares more than them about his health, and 3) most doctors don't think creatively because they aren't trained to.

As someone who has had a hard-to-diagnose health problem, Patrick's course of action is the only one that works. You have to do your own research, and pester the hell out of doctors to get them to actually try to diagnose you. Otherwise, they either tell you nothing's wrong, or they refer you to someone else who repeats the whole process and refers you again.

Patrick didn't self medicate. He's just trying to get these damned doctors to take his condition seriously.

--

-Looking for a job as a materials chemist or multivariat

Re:Jeez... by Nurseman · 2004-11-26 03:07 · Score: 3, Insightful

He's been to several docs and none have found anything significant, but he's obviously in a bad condition.

I think the general consensus among medical professionals on the last go round, is he needs a SPECIALIST, not an internest, not an ER doctor. He needs to go to someone with a plan, an Infectious Disease fellow who deals waith these kinds of illnesses. He apparently is near some world class medical institutions, I am not sure why he is not utilizing them.

--
Save a Life. Donate Blood. Please.

The man is still working on updates??? by hellfire · 2004-11-26 03:10 · Score: 4, Funny

The guy has a nasty bacterial infection and is still trying to perform Slackware updates?

I get the flu and I can barely stand to surf the web or chat on IRC! Hopefully, he will live into old age and share this story with his grandkids...

"When I was your age, I was compiling code by hand, with a lung infection, uphill, in the snow! You linux programmers have it easy these days!"

Good luck man, I'm pulling for you.

--

"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"

FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by dark-br · 2004-11-26 03:17 · Score: 3, Informative

As you can read here in his last post on /.

Re:FOR THE LAST TIME! HE DID NOT SELF-MEDICATED! by FurryFeet · 2004-11-26 05:39 · Score: 3, Funny

As you can read here in his last post on /.

s/last/latest

Otherwise, it's creepy.

Re:Sad, but he's mostly brought this on himself. by KontinMonet · 2004-11-26 03:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

Don't overdo the antibiotics? Are you in the US? Antibiotics (eg: tetracycline, penicillin and streptomycin) are used as growth promoters in cattle and other animals. Antibiotic resistance genes are being transferred from the environment into our bodies: New Scientist for the scary details.

--
Did he inhale?

PubMed by jarich · 2004-11-26 03:20 · Score: 4, Interesting

Use PubMed as your medical information source. It's where the scientists and docs publish their research and is considering a "real" datasource (as opposed to citing "the internet". Your doctors will know the name Pubmed when you mention it.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi

My daughter has a heart condition and we found the doctors weren't interested in really discussing anything until we started using the "right" terminology. The terminology I picked up after reading a number of PubMed publications about my daugher's condition.

I highly suggest that anyone researching any condition (but especially something exotic like Patrick) hit PubMed. Make it your source you cite when talking to your docs. Make it your primary source of information. All the other websites you read are just summing up the papers published here.

--
Agile Artisans

Dude, stop changing doctors! by the_skywise · 2004-11-26 03:25 · Score: 5, Interesting

I've been in your situation before with a stomach problem. You're breaking the system!

Doctor's diagnose by a flow chart the same way programmers debug a program. Given a symptom x and y, localize where the problem could be and its causes and try a solution. But unlike programmers, they don't try various solutions, rebuild and retest... Solutions in medical practice take time or can't happen at all at which point the problem has to be mediated to get on with the quality of life(ie hacked).

The problem is that everytime you switch to a new doctor two things are happening. First, the new doctor is going to start from the top of the flowchart and work his way down to the first matching diagnosis and treat that. Even if you say that was checked and the problem is different, you're the pleeb, he's the doctor and unless he gets scientific proof otherwise, his opinion is the right one. Basically, unless you have every medical test result you have, on official paper, your opinion means squat. Secondly, you're retaining all this knowledge and experience so when you present your case to the new doctor you're coming off as: "I went to this doctor with chest pains, but he didn't see anything wrong and I have this other ache which I think is related, so I went to this other doctor who says the other ache is this unrelated problem, but meanwhile I've gained a third symptom of popping in my chest so I went to the emergency room but they didn't think anything of it, so I went to the internet and printed out these charts and I think I have a rare and exotic problem, what do you think?"
Well the new Doctor is now going to think "hypochondriac" and not take your opinion very seriously becaue you've disregarded other medical opinions.

Basically you've got to find ONE doctor that you trust, present your symptoms and then work with that doctor through the multitude of tests to come to a conclusion. A good doctor is a> smart, b> will listen to your case history and c> (and most importantly) will interact with you and answer your questions to alleviate your fears.

Two anecdotes here: Both Michael Eisner and David Letterman had family histories of father's dying early from heart attacks. Both men's doctors ran the usual EKG's and stress tests and found no heart troubles. Both men continued to push for better testing and finally their doctors relented and did an dye test on the heart and found major clogging in the arteries with NO other symptoms present.

On the flip side, a relative of mine had chest pains, stomach pains and pains on his upper left abdomen. After several heart tests, his doctor diagnosed acid-reflux and proscribed one of the common pills for it. After about a month, the pain was less but he still had it. So he went back to the same doctor who tested his heart again, no problem. But my uncle was sure that something else was up, so he went through a chest x-ray, clear. So then they ran some blood tests, clear. So then they ran a lower GI test by ramming a camera up his butt, clear. Gall bladder, clear. Finally, they dropped a camera down his stomach...and found something. Acid Reflux damage. My relative had stopped taking the medication because he thought it wasn't doing anything. So the doctor put him back on it and made him stay on it. Two months later, the pain had cleared.

What you're feeling is real to you. I sympathize with what you're going through and urge you to keep up the fight. But you've got to work WITH the system.

Re:Dude, stop changing doctors! by cmason · 2004-11-26 04:28 · Score: 2

ONE doctor that you trust,
This is the key. As I said earlier, there's a huge disparity between talented and mediocre doctors, just as there is in programmers. And as others have pointed out, so many doctors these days just follow the flow chart without really caring or even listening. They hone in on the most likely cause without even considering other possibilities.
Good doctors listen, they evaluate all the symptoms, they don't dismiss anything. Hell, a key part of my cancer diagnosis was a symptom I didn't think was related at all (itchiness), a belief that earlier doctors had reinforced. Indeed, I got unlucky in that I moved around a bunch and ended up moving from doctor to doctor.
I finally found a doctor who said, "What else?" ABut by that point, it was pretty clear that something was really wrong with me. However, there's nothing like having someone finally actually listen to you, ask probing questions, and act. The single biggest revelation out of my cancer experience was that I knew something was seriously wrong with me before the doctors did.
I agree with the_skywise's recommendation that you stick to a single doctor for a while, but make sure that single doctor is a good one. If, after giving her a couple chances, your doctor can't explain your symptoms to your satisfaction, find another. It can make all the difference in the world.
-c

--
"If you are an idealist it doesn't matter what you do or what goes on around you, because it isn't real anyway."-R.P.W.

I was getting freaked out too...READ THIS by MajorDick · 2004-11-26 03:31 · Score: 2, Insightful

Seriously, I am on Cipro , second time for a bout of prostatitis myself, I waqs experiencing night sweats, heart pains and most disturbingly severe liver pain, after a ton of tests everything was Ok except I was still fevered and had the liver pain, all kinds of unexplainable and very serious seeming symptoms,

It turned out that My GALL Bladder is pretty much DOA , The coincidental timing with my prostatits was just bad luck.

I also have Reiter's Syndrome which can cause ALL Kinds of seemingly unrelated symptoms (INCLUDING HEART) AND IT generally goes hand in hand with prostatits in younger (under 40) men,

Mine was caused from a very serious bout as in nearly dead, case of Campylobacter.

Now I have just regined myself to taking lots of NSAIDS, for the arthritis part (but as many broken bones as I ve had its hard to tell if its from those or this) and dealin with a bout of the big P every other year or so. he heart issues are serious but treatable.

Nutrients and Antibiotics... by jar240 · 2004-11-26 03:32 · Score: 2, Informative

The bottom line for any illness is: your body need nutrients, not antibiotics. My advice for him is: Get yourself a Champion Juicer off eBay for $120. Then go buy: - 3 pounds of fresh ORGANIC ginger root - 20 pounds of this year's crop ORGANIC carrots - 2 pounds of ORGANIC beets (with the tops still on) - 10 pounds of ORGANIC Russet/Mac apples Use any of the above items (except ginger, see below) to make three 12 oz glasses of juice every day ... and drink them! Mix and match as you please. Make sure to use at least 3 oz of ginger for EACH glass of juice. Don't juice the beet tops, but rather have them for dinner. These ingredients should last you about 4 days. You'll feel better than you do now, and not only will you be fighting whatever's ailing you, this will be the beginning of resotring your body to its proper functioning state. During this time, don't eat any: - dairy products - refined sugar - products of any kind that contain white flour - heated oils of any kind ------ Sure, this stuff isn't covered by any health insurance and will cost you some money, but it will do wonders for you if you stick with it. Why juice? Because without most of the fiber, your body will assimilate the nutrients far more quickly than eatier the solid foods. Why organic? Everything we eat is technically organic in a chemical sense (hydrocarbons), but organic fruits and vegetables don't have any pesticides sprayed on them, and are not genetically modified (knowingly). The job of filtering toxins by your liver and kidneys takes energy away from you, and ehen you're sick, your body needs all the energy it cdan get to increase your body's potential to fight. Why make it myself fresh? Juices in the store have all been pasteurized and therefore processed in some way. The pasteurization process (cooking, basically) kills off potentially harmful bacteria, which can be good, but it also kills the enzymes. Enzymes are needed to properly digest food and assimilate nutrients. The body can manufacture most enzymes needed to properly digest food, but this again requires quite a bit of enrgy on your body's part. Jucing as a remedy and diet is akin to performing Spyware cleaning, aleminiating unneeded background processes, reclaiming precious clock cycles from your CPU for doing the things you want to do without bogging down. Antibiotics destroy your immune system (I've been on them enough as a youngster to know), thus reducing your body's capacity to fight anything off. Although you should avoid them as much as possible due to their immuno-damaging effects, antibitotics can be helpful, but they need the help of the potential of your body. Although you may be weak from an invader such as a virus, your body's potential to help comes into strong play. Drinking these juices will help increase your body' potential. I have nothing to gain by sharing this experience and advice with you, while your doctor has several. Trust nature, feed your body food not garbage, and get at least 15 minutes of direct sunlight on any part of your body, every day. Then go back and finish working on that Slackfix you gotta get done. Feel free to contact me if you'd like more information. chris DISCLAIMER: USE THIS ADVICE AT YOUR OWN RISK. YOUR MILEAGE MAY VARY.

--
"You can drive out Nature with a pitchfork, but It always comes roaring back again." - Tom Waits

Re:Try this by Captain+Morgan · 2004-11-26 03:35 · Score: 2, Insightful

The Rife machine? Are you nuts? Next you'll be telling him to rub stones and magnets over his body. If this Rife stuff actually worked there would be people all over using it cure people. Is it FDA approved or is that due to some conspiracy by the medical establishment holding it down?

No wonder he didn't reply to you.

Chris

Re:Hypochondria by Vellmont · 2004-11-26 03:42 · Score: 2, Interesting

Possibly, either that or it has the words "poor national healthcare" written all over it. It sounds like there's real evidence that SOMETHING is wrong with him. Why is someone who's concerned about their own health when the doctors around them aren't immediately labled a hypochondriac?

--
AccountKiller

Pretend they are technical support... by stienman · 2004-11-26 03:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

My experience has been that with any profession if you, not part of that profession, claim to know better or push them to do what you believe needs to be done, they will be infinitely less useful than they would be otherwise.

Think about computer technical support, as an example we are all familiar with. They are paid to solve your problem according to their standards as quickly as possible, then get the the next call.

Physicians are not different, due to hospital and insurance policy.

If you act belligerent, and insist that you know what's wrong and that they are to follow your orders, they will likely turn a deaf ear to your complaints, do the minimum necessary that won't get them in trouble, and hope that you bug some other physician next time.

Further, like a tech, if they hear that you are searching for the right doctor to diagnose you according to your desires, they will all the more easily dismiss your problem. Firstly because you may well be a hypochondriac, secondly because they know you won't stop until you're treated, and thus they don't need to be burdened with the thought that you might take their advice and then die.

The best way I've found to deal with people who essentially must operate according to a 'script' or 'SOP' is to approach them with my most major complaints/symptoms, avoid using any terminology that might show I know more than I'm letting on, and let them go through their normal procedures.

Doctors (and techs) are getting more used to the idea of self-help, so it can help sometimes to say something like, "I looked my symptoms up online and [reliable medical website] suggested something called 'technical term'. Is there a way to prove that I don't have that?"

The reason physicians and techs are so jaded is because in the vast majority of cases, the doctor hopping, belligerent, advice ignoring patient/client is wrong. Further, if they aren't willing to go through your normal procedure for knocking off the most obvious problems, there's no way in this world that they'll diagnose you for something that is rare.

The fact that your are doctor hopping and hospital hurts you more than it helps. At the minimum you need to get a copy of your medical record from every provider you've visited and then choose a doctor/health system and stick with them. Changing doctors is resetting your medical care. A new doctor has to start from scratch.

Lastly, make sure the 'trouble ticket' isn't closed until you are satisfied. If the doctor gives you a clean bill of health, then ask them why you still have these symptoms. If they won't give you a clear answer, then ask to be bumped up to the second tier of support. There are only three reasons why you might continue to have these symptoms, and ask them point blank which one it is: 1) You have an unresolved medical problem or 2) You are imagining your medical problem or 3) You are considering something 'normal' to be a medical or resolvable issue (ie, there is no treatment)

Tell them this is causing a quality of life issue, and if the problem is 1 then you need it to be resolved. If it's 2 then ask them to send you to a qualified psychologist (who can rule out or resolve hypochondria). If it's 3 then ask them who can help you resolve your pain and suffering so you can be productive again.

I'm sure I don't have the whole story from this side of the issue, nevermind the doctor's side of the issue, so I can't really weigh in on this particular case. My gut tells me that if this was a serious (ie, death at the door) case, then portions of his body would be failing in a detectable way. Especially if he's had this 'bacterial infection' for this long. Perhaps systems are failing and doctors haven't been given the chance (or time before switching) to find them. Funny thing about 'normal' levels of [measurement x] is that normal is a large band, and while you may fall in that band, it may not be normal for you. Until you have a comprehensive case h

eat better as well; can only be good by jago25_98 · 2004-11-26 04:21 · Score: 2, Interesting

if it's viral go thrpough the steps to aid immunue system; can only be good to eat good food:

-protein (i.e. whey) /aminos
+ others

--
A blog I run for the wealth

The Reality of the Medical System for non-MDs by cquark · 2004-11-26 04:33 · Score: 5, Interesting

As you say, you're an MD, which gives you a different perspective on health care. For example, you know many MDs personally and indirectly through them have a network to many other MDs. Don't you doctor shop too, to find the best person you know? The rest of us don't know any MDs personally, so to find the best doctor, all we have are recommendations from friends who aren't MDs, which are sometimes useful, but generally we actually have to go in for a visit to see how good someone is.

Also, how long will your doctor see you for? The typical visit time for my HMO is 2 minutes, and I've never personally been able to keep a doctor in the room for 5 minutes, even when it took longer than that span to explain my problem.

I've been in Patrick's position, having a chronic condition where I went through over a dozen doctors who were completely useless. All the doctors seemed to have the same set of flowcharts for diagnosing me and never listened to what I said. Each GP did the same tests, sent me to the same types of specialists, and gave up at about the same time. They were like bad help desk personnel reading from the same script.

Fortunately, I met someone with the same problem and went to her doctor (that she'd found through a multi-year search like the one I had been doing). Her doctor was outside my HMO and quite expensive as a result, but well worth the cost as he spent the time to talk with me and learn my medical history, diagnosed the problem correctly, and prescribed a successful set of treatments.

Perhaps you would know the right person to go to immediately, but most of the rest of us are trapped in the HMO system without your connections to find the right person or to convince most MDs to spend more than a couple minutes with us.

The system sometimes fails by murderlegendre · 2004-11-26 04:54 · Score: 5, Interesting

Patrick's unfortunate plight is not all that surprising to me. I lived for 27 years with two undiagnosed major medical problems, despite scores of visits to doctors and ERs.

Years of unexplained nausea & abdominal pain, weak immunity, mysterious pains that roamed randomly over my body, recurring flu-like symptoms, joint and muscle pain, headaches etc. I was called everything.. hypochondriac, liar, quitter, faker etc. So many specialists, tests, and so on, that I can't even count them all.

Finally, on yet another desperate 3am ER visit, my then-wife demanded that they look until they find something to explain all of this. Some bright ER intern plops an ultrasound on my belly (no, none of the many other "medical professionals" had ever bothered to do this..). The discussion went like this:

Intern: Do you have any history of kidney disease?

Me: No..

Intern: You do now!

24 hours later, I was diagnosed with PROFOUNDLY ADVANCED Polycystic Kidney Disease. My kidneys were so enlarged that they were squashing all of my other organs out of place. This hadn't happend overnight; it was with me all of my life, slowly getting worse every year. Once they had the kidneys figured out, it wasn't long until they had the Fibromyalgic illness / chronic fatigue diagnosed as well. Needless to say, after 27 years of suffering, I was less than totally impressed with the medical profession.

In short, the system sometimes fails.. and when it does, it can be a real doozy. Hang in there Pat, every illness has a cause, and yours will surely be found. Blessed be.

--
There's a Starman, waiting in the sky / He'd like to come and meet us, but he hasn't got the time.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by volkerdi · 2004-11-26 05:17 · Score: 4, Informative

Seriously, if you kept yourself informed, you'd realise by now that Pat was _never_ self medicating, when he was on antibiotics it was always under perscription.

Exactly.

I'm also getting some people who are telling me that this whole issue was caused by antibiotics that weakened my immunity. However, from around 2/2003 to 11/2004, I did not take _any_ antibiotics. When I started to get really sick in October I hadn't had antibiotics in well over a year. I had only two short courses of antibiotics in 2002 and 2003 for what seemed to be bronchitis (though the docs never verified if it was bacterial or viral but just said, "here, eat some Cipro).

One more time:

I have not been "self-medicating".

I have never, ever, taken antibiotics until I felt better and then stopped them, allowing a resistant relapse to occur. I have, however, been given an insufficient initial course of antibiotics for prostatitis in 2001 (which is what then required a long course of Cipro).

For those who are making fun of my supposedly improper use of medical terms, or wrong context, or whatever: this is not my field of expertise and we both know it. I don't hassle people trying to get computer help from me when they use incorrect jargon. Maybe BMDFH should be a new acronym.

On the hypochondria theory: anyone who has ever spent any significant time with me in person would shoot that one down in an instant. The last two months have been highly unusual for me, and I've never been inclined to think that I'm sick, to worry about that, or to go see doctors.
I hate being a pincushion.

Oh, and I know that seeing a new doctor causes a reinvent the wheel syndrome, and that when you tell them how many other doctors you've seen recently they tend to suspect you're crazy rather than physically ill. I know this all too well. However, if the antibiotics I've taken are suppressing the usual clinical evidence then I'm in a bit of a catch-22. As sick as I've been, the idea of using my body as a petri dish doesn't appeal to me much, comprende? Plus, some of these bugs (especially anerobes) simply don't culture well, and they won't go for the slam-dunk with a needle biopsy. At some point you'd think there would be a time for proactive treatment. Like in, say, a patient with no history of heart trouble who has complained of a recent fever and infection who has developed a new mitral valve prolapse.

I guess that's about it for now. I know some of you think I'm an behaving like an idiot, or whatever. I only hope that those of you who feel that way never find yourselves in my shoes.

To everyone who has offered well-wishes, thank you!

Best regards to /.,

Pat

Oregano Oil is interesting by Alien54 · 2004-11-26 06:28 · Score: 2, Insightful

Pure Oregano oil has some interesting properties. Initial research looks promising, with much more to be done. And like anything else, to get large quantities of the essential ingredients directly from the herb requires that you eat a pound or two of the stuff consistantly on a daily basis.

Usually what you see sold in places like vitamin shops etc is a concentrated oil diluted with olive oil. Typically, you will get a 1 or 2 percent solution. And it is relatively high priced.

That said, you can order reasonable concentrations online if you google around for a while. Note that these are usually marked for aromatic use only, as the concentration is regarded as too intense for actual internal consumption.

There is enough spread that someone could find a profit margin in there someplace.

--
"It is a greater offense to steal men's labor, than their clothes"

Why the mod-down? by thegnu · 2004-11-26 06:30 · Score: 2, Insightful

I've been noticing that people have been modding down the posts about holistic remedies. I'm not saying that they're the only answer, but I certainly think that in the interest of saving someone's life, we should be making it EASIER to find more varied information, not harder.

--
Please stop stalking me, bro.

You get what you pay for. by mosel-saar-ruwer · 2004-11-26 06:31 · Score: 2, Funny

Obviously, I have not examined this guy. He might have a new disease that completely goes against science as we know it. But people come to us for rare medical problems all the time... we love it. When we find something rare, we jump around giving each other high-5s. We spend tons of research and government money trying to figure out these rare case. However...

I'm just not buying in this case.

*****

When his story was first posted on slashdot, several of the hospital network gurus came up to me and asked me about it in our CIS meeting...

If you were to reread my post, I wasn't giving advice. I was just giving my opinion of his situation.

Oddly enough, I had just finished reading this post on an unrelated thread:

Client/Server Calendar Program?
Rephrase the question: We want everything, and want it for free. We could use the free tools available, but they aren't stable enough and we're too lazy to help develop the free product.
I need a free solution that does everything! Someone write one for me!
http://ask.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=130746&cid =10924472

Sadly, I got the same feeling when I perused Volkerding's missive - I couldn't help but wonder whether the guy is willing to pay for proper medical care.

As you indicated in your first post, one of the most likely explanations for his condition is hypochondria, but competing for the title of "most likely explanation" will always be the possibility [or even probability] of incompetence on the part of the attending physician. And closely related to that possibility is an obtuse, self-destructive determined-ness on the part of the patient to refuse to pay for proper medical care.

Volkerding goes on and on about showing up at this or that emergency room with this and that complaint, but surely he must realize that the MDs in the ER who are examining him at all hours of the night are precisely the doctors who were too stupid to get into a proper American medical school, and got their degrees from some diploma mill in a third world cesspool like Grenada.

If you're sick, and you suspect you have a viral infection, you don't go to a family practitioner, or an internist, or even an "Emergency Room Physician" - you go to a virologist. And you don't go to any virologist, you go to the virologist who graduated #1 from his class at Harvard Med and who is chairman of the Department of Infectious Diseases and who has published numerous articles in Nature, Science, and the like.

And if you suspect you have a cardiovascular problem, you don't go to a family practitioner, or an internist, or even an "Emergency Room Physician" - you go to a cardiologist, or a cardiovascular surgeon. And you don't go to any cardiologist, you go to the cardiologist who graduated #1 from his class at Harvard Med and who is chairman of the Cardiology Department and who has published numerous articles in Nature, Science, and the like.

"But that's not fair," legions of /.-ers will cry. Your damned right it's not fair - it's called "life." You want fair, you purchase your crappy HMO policy from Oligopoly Insurance Inc, with its $10 co-payments for ER visits, and you get "fair" medicine. Better yet, you move to Canada and sit in line for two years waiting to see a doctor.

You know, a while back, there was this experiment in "fair", where a bunch of intellectuals tried to create a "fair" society, and all that's left of their efforts now is the rapidly fading memory of about 100 million people who were butchered by equal opportunity murderers parading under pseudonyms like Lenin and Stalin.

Back to the original point, though: There's a reason that Oracle isn't free, that Windows isn't free, that DB2 isn't free, that Novell Directory Services isn't free, etc, etc, etc: It's because th

Re:You get what you pay for. by owlstead · 2004-11-26 12:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Only idiots think in black and white. There are middle ways. Most of Europe is using it. You don't have to have a stalinist regime to have a social healthcare. It's even cheaper in the long run. Going broke for the rest of your life because you *think* you have an unknown infectual dissease would even scare me off.

In a world where 1% of the people provides food and another one prevents housing, why can't you get free healthcare in America. It would cost a few percent of the war in Iraq (which will flood the hospitals in the years to come, even if the fighting would stop now).

Anyway, the repuplican party is showing the whole world that a country led by companies and bureaucratics can be equally bad to those regimes you just mentioned. It just takes most of the public in the US some time to catch up with the rest of the world on this.

And as a last point, yes, I would go to my doctor, and if he can't fix it or points in the direction of a specialist, THEN I would go to that doctor. How the hell should I know what I've caught if I just feel sick. I would check the diagnoses of the doctor as well though.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by volkerdi · 2004-11-26 08:07 · Score: 3, Interesting

I lived in a house in Moorhead, MN from 1988 until 1999 when I moved to California. Shortly thereafter the ceiling in the living room caved in following a storm exposing 6 inches of Aspergillus growth. The house was sealed off by the EPA and had to have major cleanup.

In spite of this, I think at most this is a contributing factor. If I had an active aspergillus infection that would be a lot easier to find.

Oh, the fuel oil furnace in the house was also found to have a cracked heat exchanger that was allowing fuel oil vapor into the ventilation system. The ducts were choked with soot.

Re:The problem with Patrick... by krbvroc1 · 2004-11-26 08:58 · Score: 2, Interesting

http://www.aspergillus.man.ac.uk/languages/indexho me_lang.htm?english.htm~main

Where's the evidence? by ponos · 2004-11-26 09:51 · Score: 2, Informative

It's usually very hard to put a diagnosis without proper data. In this case, even though I'm currently preparing for USMLE-like examinations (you are presented with some data and you try to make a diagnosis), I find it very hard to trust Pat's "clues" because I don't know what is real and what is *his* idea of a diagnosis.

As a doctor I really like to hear my patients tell me actual facts and not their interpretations. E.g. "I have fever and sore throat" and NOT "I have the flu". Infectious diseases that may present with fever and sore throat are many (ranging from primary HIV infection to infectious mononucleosis to common cold) and it's highly unlikely that the patient has considered all of them. By focusing on a possible "diagnosis" the patient may ignore other signs that would be useful to the doctor.

I could list quite a few diagnoses that would fit Pat's description, but guessing is quite useless, especially in important health matters. Maybe some doctors did not follow proper standards of care but the fact that an assumed serious condition did not alarm so many of them is quite suspicious.

As a simple advice (I hope Pat is reading this!): IF you have fever (defined typically as over 38.3 deg. Celsius) plus a NEW audible cardiac wheeze (not mitral prolapse, which is quite different) you should be admitted to the hospital on the basis of an assumed diagnosis of bacterial endocarditis (unless *proven* otherwise). Bacterial endocarditis usually develops on PRE-existing pathological conditions (e.g. old rheumatic fever, IV drug use). Typically, cardiac ultrasound (why don't you go have one, if you are so worried?) will give very useful clues. Examination of the retina and blood cultures (at least three) are also necessary. If no signs of bacterial infection are found, several viral pathogens can cause pericardial inflammation but I can only remember Coxsackie and echoviridae off the top of my head. Viruses usually cause milder disease.

Finally, please do not trust the web, google, medline, nih. These are excellent data sources, but you are unable to properly interpret what you read without proper training. You can't just open "harrison's internal medicine" and hope to acquire the skills to make a diagnosis in a few hours/days/weeks. Find a good doctor and trust him. Sure, some people say that they correctly diagnosed their condition, even though the doctors where wrong. It happens, doctor's make mistakes. But on 99.99% of cases, your doctor knows better than you.

P.

Re:Where's the evidence? by ponos · 2004-11-27 01:08 · Score: 2, Interesting

He spent one night in the hospital. He was billed $35,000.00 The man has no insurance and if he did it would have been full of deductables, co-pay s and all the rest. Who can afford this type of treatment you propose? Only the dwindling few with insurance that is sufficient to not bankrupt them.

I'm really sorry to hear that and I understand your bitterness. However, this is not true everywhere. Why don't you have a look at what happens in countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland or Canada? Just because health care is unbelievably expensive in the US (I live in the EU) it does not mean that the medical profession or medicine itself is corrupt. Doctors operate within the rules created by the system/government. If business is what you want, business you'll get. My colleagues here work 80-hour weeks for ~1400$ a month because this is the law. In my country it is forbidden by the law to advertise medications to the general public (besides very few over-the-counter drugs like Aspirin). Why don't you ask your politicians to implement a different health care system that ensures a lowest common denominator of health care for everyone, if that's what you want?
Bonus tip: Maybe you should try doctor "shopping" abroad? I'm sure you could get very low prices in places like former soviet block countries. Plane tickets are cheap.
P.

My experiences and the Medical 'Industry' by qadmon · 2004-11-26 10:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

I am 66 yrs old. I have never been to a hospital
except for minor cuts. I do not take any prescribed
medications. I have checkups on occassion with a 125/70 BP , 65 heart rate and other good vital signs.

I pay very close attention to my body. I do not trust the medical industry(not a profession).

When I become ill enough to not find a simple solution then I will die. I can not now afford to pay the attendant medical costs for anything beyond a medium illiness.

I am retired from a Fortune 100 corporation as a once programmer. My benefits are worthless.

I will enjoy what remains and the devil take the hindmost.

Slackware was the very first Linux distro I installed, using Pats book with the attendant cd/diskette. This was way way back.

I wish him the best. My brother died last year. The medical industry basically did him in. My wifes uncles was allowed to perish due to the same problems experienced by Pat.

His right lung adhered to his chest cavity. When they operated for a small spot on the xray they discovered this condition. He went downhill from there. He received the worst care and treatment I have ever observed in my life. (How did I observe this? My wife has had 8 major operations and takes massive loads of prescribed medications. She is much younger than I.

In the past I have had to have her roommate restrained from attempting to set her bed on fire. I have had to check her out of hospitals where the case was at the criminal level.

Summary: Eat right, live right, and the rest of the Scout Oath. Listen to your body. It will tell you what is right and wrong.

Oh yes, I do go into my woods and harvest wild ginseng. I do always drink appropiate amounts of alcohol. I never watch TV. I don't belong to organized religion and I NEVER listen to Rap or Hip-Hop.

NOTE: A lot of this is TIC(tongue in cheek) but a lot is also true.

Kudos Pat. Live long and prosper. I will offer a prayer to GAOTU.

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An Update on Patrick Volkerding

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