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Network Scheduling to Mess with Tivo
Yahoo is running a bit about Networks messing with PVRs by adding a minute to shows. If a show runs to 9:01, then you can't Tivo a show on another channel that starts at 9. I've noticed this, although it's less of a factor if you have a dual tuner tivo, but it's interesting to see a bit of mainstream coverage.
I don't think this tactic is specifically used to target TiVo.
The article mentioned people who use VCRs and digital video recorders like TiVos are affected. But I guess putting TiVo in everything is a must now. Imagine an Open Source TiVo-like software that can be installed in iPod to provide time-shifting functionality for old people in Korea.
Anyway, If I had to choose, I would take 30 seconds off the end of the 1st show and 30 seconds off the next one, they're usually opening or trailer for next show.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
I have noticed this for about a year and a half now. Most notably on Thursday nights with NBC programming.
ER starts at 8:59, which prevents me from recording CSI on CBS which runs from 8:00 to 9:00.
All TiVo has to do is change its programming a bit. They actually contribute to the conflicts by not allowing you to start recording a program late. Sure you can start recording early, or stop late, but unless you do it completely manually, it is not possible to start late and or end early.
My old VCR used to handle this somewhat more gracefully. If I had a weekly program, say from 7:00 to 8:00, and I had another program that recorded from 7:00 to 7:30, it would record the first program (if it had a higer priority) and then switch channels to record the last half of the other program.
I do not see why TiVo can't simply change the software to "record as much as possible, even if a few minutes are lost" rather than the current model of "even if one minute conflicts, the whole program is abandoned".
Hear that TiVo? Missing features!
As the article summary notes, this isn't a problem for dual-tuner PVRs.
Most PVRs offered by cable and satellite providers, such as Charter's Motorola BMC9012 offering, are just that. And, adding another tuner (or several tuners) to media PCs, such as those running MythTV or the surprisingly good Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005, is a simple task (for a person so inclined to have a media PC in the first place).
So, yes, it's interesting to see this acknowledged, but the tactic does show up in the guides (e.g., ER starting at 8:59PM CT), and for multi-tuner PVRs it is not at all an issue.
What will be far more interesting to me is the networks' and content providers' handling and usage of the Broadcast Flag (more, more, more), which will probably be utilized to prevent digital and/or HD recording, and thus prevent (easy) skipping of ad content, of some "high value" shows altogether, as well as allowing the placement (force feeding?) of new shows to piggyback on existing "popular" shows.
Interesting that while the invention of the VCR has been recently lauded as releasing people from the prison of having to watch "prime time" TV in prime time, the Broadcast Flag may essentially shoot us back 20 years. And most consumers don't understand or know the rights that have already been granted them enough to know the difference.
(And why don't content providers understand that: 1. this won't stop pirates from pirating TV, and that 2. this only makes it harder on ordinary consumers?)
That explains why the shows have been getting onto BitTorrent a minute or two later.
Trolling is a art,
TV has largely succeded, in the footsteps of Radio, by networks and stations being good about time boundaries. Once anarchy happens, where networks ge into the habit of 5 minutes this or that way, they can pretty much cut their own throats. This was extremely irritating when Turner did it.
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
TiVo began advising its 2 million subscribers to watch out for such time conflicts and to adjust their recording settings manually.
Couldn't TiVo finish off the first one (maybe 31 minutes), and proceed to record the next despite it's 1 minute late?
Maybe a patch will check for any conflicts and prompt users to choose from a few options, for istance, give weight/priority to a particular show.
Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
Not an issue if you only watch one channel.
Oh look, it's Colonel Carter in a slick leather outfit!
For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. -- H L Mencken
Yes. I'd like to see soft scheduling. If the tuner isn't in use for something else I'd like it to record an extra five minutes before and after the show I'm interested in.
I'd also like to see these PVRs available with four tuners.
If you know you are going to miss the last 3-4 minutes of a show, you might be less likely to TIVO it.
1. Add minutes to end of shows
2. Decrease TIVO usage
3. More viewers see more commericals
4. Profit.
It makes perfect sense.
The other thing that people forget is that TBS has been doing this for a while. If you are "kept" at one channel for 5 minutes longer, you are going to miss the beginnings of the "hooker" beginner part of shows on other channels.
I have been using Beyond Tv for some time now, and it allows you the simple option of padding a recording by X amount of minutes before or after a program start time. I can't imagine it would take much for Tivo to implement something like that.
TiVo should be able to automatically record a show that is one minute already in progress.
The logic will need to be fuzzed a bit and adjusted to account for this. As it stands, the TiVo software will not consider recording a show already in progress unless the user forces it. The software will need to be made more intelligent so as to consider a show only one minute into it, for all intents and purposes, as being right at the start.
Mod down people who tell people how to mod in their sigs
I have no problem with this, AS LONG AS THEY PUT THE CORRECT TIMES ON THE SCHEDULE.
If the show runs from 9:00 - 10:01, then don't list 9:00 - 10:00 in the schedule.
If the times were correct, then Tivo would be able to figure it out.
Just don't let TiVo change their 30 sec commerical skip code.
I'll miss a few shows as long as I can blast away commericals from my remote control.
If one program concludes at 5min past the hour and the other starts on the hour and you don't have a TIVO or VCR, well now you need one!
If you want to time shift, now you need TWO machines.
I bet the hardware vendors are secretly smiling because most consumers are too stupid to apply anything other than the brute force, buy more $hit solution.
IMO, more people are 'addicted' to TV than to cigarettes, crack, food, tentacle rape, and opossum fishing COMBINED!
Now I'm the grandest Tiger in the Jungle!
TiVo just really needs to have greater flexibility on scheduling is what it comes down too. I have also noticed this with ER and CSI too. It drives me crazy!
If CSI runs until 10:02, and ER starts RIGHT AT 10 like they do, it is very likely my wife will take the laptop off my lap and hurl it through our TV.
It's bad enough with those two anyway if you're a fan of both. This is a problem for regular people who want to watch one thing at 9 and something else on another network at 10.
Thank you guys, thank you for reminding me why I pay for CABLE. Assclowns.
I like music
Doesn't this affect the average tv viewer as well? I am watching ER from 8:00 to 9:01 and then I want to change the channel to watch (insert other popular program here) that airs from 9:00 to 10:00, I've just missed the first minute of the second show. Of course thats not a problem if you only watch one network, maybe that is what they are trying to promote more than fcking with TiVos.
Why don't they just go ahead and send a high voltage spike down the cable line, that would "fix" the Tivo.
Nor can you watch all of both shows when they air. They are not just screwing the Tivo users, they are screwing up their core customers, the ones who watch live, commercials and all. This is hardly a new practice, Fox has been starting the Simpsons early for years. But it certainly is growing in it's adoption. It's not just a minute either, in many cases (at least with NBC) it's several, and those minutes can be on either end (the show might start early, or end late).
Rather than hurting the TIVO users, this pratice may well drive more normal viewers to becoming multiple tuner TiVo users (and skipping the commercials in the process).
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
The History Channel keeps you watching by removing the commerical break between the ending credits of one show, and the opening teaser of another show, so you get roped right into the next show.
While that might cause some time conflicts because the padding from the commercial break isn't there to cut some slack, it is a lot better than this early starting crap.
When we first got a TiVo they were doing something like this, but it wasn't on purpose. My housemate was considering starting a mail-in campaign where we sent all the TV stations a cheap plastic digital watch, so they could keep time.
Someone had to do it.
What you're talking about is called "soft padding", and it's a feature that TiVo owners have been asking for for years. You can already do "hard padding", but manually specifying some number to adjust the start and/or stop time of a recording. This was designed for clock skew, but it's also being used for shows that habitually start or end late or early.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
There is an application for folks who've hacked their Tivo (I think only series 1's), that can help with this issue thoough. Called endpad. Here's a link to the announcement on the tivo community forums: Forums. This is especially useful for single tuner Tivos (as mentioned above).
Yes, this is known as negative padding (starting late or ending early). Both TiVo and ReplayTV allow positive padding (starting early or ending late).
ObOnion reference: "Area Man Constantly Mentioning He Doesn't Own A Television."
My beliefs do not require that you agree with them.
All their shows started at :05 and :35. I always thought it was funny, until I realised that you would never miss the begining of their shows, and always miss the begining of other channel's shows. It's the same kind of low cunning behind "$10.99"... really only effective if not everyone does it.
Sometimes seventeen/Syllables aren't enough to/Express a complete
My wife tends to watch shows like this, and we've noticed the same thing. Networks tend to run shows a minute or so off, and since shows now start immediately (with the opening credits rolling several minutes into the show) it can be aggravating. To combat this, we do one of the following :
1. Watch the opposing show on the station in a different time zone. We get channels from other broadcast cities, and since we're in Dallas it is easy to catch a show on the L.A. channels an hour or two later. We can also record the later show if nothing else is on that we want to watch.
2. Usenet. Most, if not all, of the popular shows are available in DivX (or similar) format the next morning. I simply cue up the shows and burn a couple to a CD or DVD, then play back on our Philips DVP642. That way if there's a night that's slow for TV shows, we can just catch up on what we missed the other night.
Option 1 is more preferable from the network execs' standpoint. Option 2 is more preferable from our standpoint since we get to keep the shows and watch them at our convenience, even if that means on my laptop while dinner is cooking, etc.
At somepoint, the networks need to realize that WE WANT OUR PROGRAMMING OUR WAY. We don't always mind commercials, we don't mind in-show advertising (I don't personally, YMMV), but we mind you playing games with us and hindering our ability to watch a simple show on the television.
Note: We only have one PVR in the house. The equipment fee to "rent" one from Dish is not overly expensive, but we (read: I) prefer to spend the money on Usenet and blank CDs.
What model TiVo do you have? I have a couple series 2 TiVos, and it has 'start early' and 'stop late'. It does not have the ability to 'start late' or 'stop early'. (for recording a program from the guide. Manual recordings are another matter.)
Jesus fucking Christ what the hell is wrong with these shitheads? What next? Is everything these retards do designed to alienate and piss off their own customers? First we can't record what we want when we want to soon we won't be able to zap the commercials on our own machines. It's bad enough that there is steadily less and less actualy content - what, about 18 minutes per half hour once you strip out the commericials the jingle, the credits? It's not bad enough there's a gigantic animated bug in the lower right corner of the screen and crawl across the bottom. Now they want to make sure that I don't watch the beginning and/or the end of any show?
What next? Super premium extra fee channels that compress everything into recordable timeslots?
I want them dead, I want them all dead. I want their women raped their children enslaved their houses fucking burned to the ground.
They did this once before- they started programs a minute early. This threw off recording devices and you would miss the first minute or so of the program. DISH Network (echostar) got around this by adding a checkbox to start one minute early.
I expect it would be just as easy to add a "start one minute late" checkbox.
Some stations purposely (doesn't TBS still do this?) start their programs 5 minutes after the hour to catch channel surfers.
I have found that recordings (Tivo, etc) can be affected when the station you are recordings clock is a little off as well.
I have wanted a custom timer start/stop option for some time. Sure, being able to "point and click" is nice, but adding a pre/delay would be an excellent value add at little cost to the manufacturers.
Geez, if a $29.00 VCR can start/stop anytime, why can't a $200 Tivo?
Repant. Thy end is sheer.
Same here.
I'm wondering how long before some bright CEO decides that they can cut out the distribution network and provide straight to the consumer.
BitTorrent/NetFlix take care of all my TV needs. I also wonder if NetFlix could not distribute instead of the cable company. For a fee send me a DVD a week with the latest XYZ show on it. Would seem to b a huge business waiting to be tapped.
Trust me, he's already heard about "soft padding". You should instead ask him why they haven't implemented it yet, considering that TiVo owners have wanted it for years now.
And the men who hold high places must be the ones who start
To mold a new reality... closer to the heart
...you are not their customer. advertisers are.
Tivo has positive padding, but needs negative padding to work well with 2 shows in a row.
You are allowed to start ER 1 minute early. (example: 7:59) Except that's a comflict when you record CSI from 7 to 8:00. (You can't double record that same minute) So obviously the solution is to have CSI stop recording 1 minute early. And that's where TIVO fails.
The alternative is to set up manual recording for both shows to start/end on the hour. That sucks for shows that might move around, etc, and then it'll also record non-new shows since it's no longer a season pass. But at least now they're labeling the manual recordings with the show name.
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?
Somewhat off-topic, but related...and I feel like ranting.
:O
I don't understand why people are freaking out about Tivo and other PVR/DVR systems. I'll be the first to admit, I'm a jerk about copyright infringement. Music, software, etc, etc. I've been getting a lot better now that I'm not a poor highschool or college student, but I DO have a bad track record.
With that said, however, never once did I even ponder the idea of either downloading OR uploading recorded TV shows. Why? Because they're already freely available. There is nothing I need to see THAT BADLY that I can't just tell SageTV to record the next time it pops up and go about my business. If I won't be able to see it for a year or so until they slide it into the re-runs, and I positively have to see it, I'll purchase the season (ala SG-1).
Why would I want to download a show recorded by someone else when I can get the exact same thing for myself without almost any effort? Aside from the fact that I may get a kick out of their crazy local commercials that may or may not appear on it, there's absolutely no reason for me to do this.
As for skipping advertisements, which I know is the real worry; keep things in perspective. Yes, I do fastforward through commercials (when I'm not too lazy to pick up the remote (now THAT is lazy!)). But even if I didn't have that option, you can bet your ass I would spin my chair around and turn some music on while muting the TV, or using the bathroom, or making a sandwich, or throwing socks at my cat in an effort to make him freak out. I don't feel like I'm anything unusual here; most people are the same way. Would I download a movie? Yes. Would I download a TV show? No. Could others? Yes. But I've been seeing avi's of The Simpsons floating around on my campus network since 2000. The more PVRs, the better, because now people aren't sharing, they're making these recordings themselves.
I'm sure there's a point in there somewhere. Or at least I hope so. If not, at least I may be able to start a discussion.
The pregnant girl had a baby polar bear.
word.
While I'm sure that dicking with PVR owners is a side effect that the networks like. I beleive that the realy reason for this is to squeeze yet another minute of commercials into popular shows. Unfortunatly for the networks this tactic will have the effect of driving more people to the Internet to download their shows totally free of commercials.
The difference between Canada and the USA is that in Canada healthcare is a right and gun ownership is a privilege.
Tivo Can do that!
Just not out of the box.
With TivoWebPlus you can set it to start Late or early (unlike the tivo UI), and end early or late (or even.. gasp on time).
Sure it requires a bit of hacking, but the side effect it you can schedule recordings via the web (w/o using tivos HMO features).
-Jason
The new MythTV 0.16 has this feature. Note the change log on this page http://www.mythtv.info/moin.cgi/WhatsNew
New Recording Options Screen The advanced recording options screen has been given a much needed make over. The various Qt controls are gone and the dialog is now themeable. Recording options are now set using a list control. The options are grouped into categories and can be selected using the arrow keys and the SELECT button. For simple items such as the start early/end late options you can just use left/right to increment them. For list types such as the recording group selection you can scroll through the options with left/right or press SELECT to see a list of the items and select which one you want. Items that can be scrolled left or right have arrows pointing to the left and/or right.
I think their schedule has been offset by 5 minutes for decades
What ever happened to picture-in-a-picture technology? That's just 2 tuners.
How much extra does it cost to add a 2nd or 3rd tuner to a DVR? Yeah, there's some can-we-write-several-programs-at-once-to-disk issues, but those are minor and can be compensated for in software by degrading the recording.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I ran into this issue lastnight, I just told mythtv to stop recording the show 1 minute early and the problem was solved.
Icemaann
http://www.nugg.org
I got around this by getting a MythTV box and setting it to always record 5 minutes after and 5 minutes before. Sure you can do this with TiVo, but MythTV has one advantage - it can support more than two tuners. This is important because back to back shows will overlap with the extra end and beginning padding. I currently have three Hauppauge PVR-250 tuner boards in mine, and I haven't had any real scheduling conflicts with the scheme yet (although I'm thinking of getting a 4th just in case).
Step One: Turn on your TV.
Step Two: Holding the power button on your TiVo, unplug it from the wall.
Step Three: Holding the power button on your TV, unplug it from the wall.
Step Four: Stand in front of the television and then look to the side. Imagine your gaze has an infinite range which follows the curvature of Earth. Think about how right now your life, and the lives of 6.5 billion people, are ticking away one second at a time. Imagine that what you do with your temporary gift of consciousness actually matters.
Step Five: Welcome back to reality.
Hollywood, Television, has become the dream machine. We need to take that back; each of us is a Dream Machine
for each recording or season pass, you can set it to record up to 5min before and 5min after. please RTFM before proclaiming tivo can't handle it.
This is, of course, a zero-sum game. For every person who quits watching CSI: Springfield because Law and Order: Metermaids runs late, there will be one person who quits watching L&O:M to catch CSI:S. If all networks synced up to the Naval Atomic Clock and started shows at hour-and-15-seconds and ended them at hour:59:45, more shows would get watched overall. A rising tide lifts all boats.
But hey, where does cooperation and common sense belong in corporate America, even if it can be easily proven that it's the best thing to do for all involved?
Dear Slashdot: next time you want to mess with the site, add a rich-text editor for comments.
When the credits of a show are compressed or scrolled through extra fast it makes it more dificult to read actor's names. I wonder if SAG is going to get on this. I wonder if this breaks any bargaining agreements?
"brxref
"As long as they get the viewer in front of the tube so they can get their advertising revenue, that's all that matters."
should actually be:
"As long as they can convince the advertiser that the viewer is in front of the tube so they can get their advertising revenue, that's all that matters."
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
This is why you need to use a Cable DVR instead of TiVO.
I have been using a DVR (now a HD-DVR dual tuner) for quite a while, and I have no problems with this, and I do record shows that begin at 1 minute past the hour.