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Bhopal Disaster Revisited [updated]
On December 3, 1984, a chemical plant run by Union Carbide and located in Bhopal, India
released about 40 tons of a toxic gas which was an intermediate chemical used in creating pesticides. (That is, the plant was in the business of creating chemicals deadly to life.) Safety at the plant had not been a concern of management; numerous safety systems were offline or non-functional. The gas cloud drifted over the city and killed thousands of people, and inflicted permanent injury to hundreds of thousands more. It was the worst industrial accident to date. Today, the site remains a contaminated wasteland, unusable and never cleaned up. The survivors have been minimally compensated, but as time passes, enough of them have died that compensation may now be in the works. Update: 12/03 15:51 GMT by M : Whoops, just kidding, the Reuters story linked there is wrong; the BBC was apparently hoaxed into putting a Dow spokesman on TV who wasn't actually a Dow spokesman. Dow has no plans to clean up the facility and no plans to compensate the survivors. Hope this clears things up.
Yeah, except that the chairman of UC has been charged with culpable homicide in India, and declared a fugitive. But the US govt. has so far refused to let him be extradited for trial.
Without the monumental advances in overcoming human nature since these dark times, we wouldn't even be considering shifting regulatory responsibility from the government to the private sector. Yea, we are truly blessed to live in such an enlightened age.
fnord
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
... enough of them have died that compensation may now be in the works.
I shudder to think that this means that there are so few remaining survivors that a pay out is financially feasible for Union Carbide.
These pesticide thingies sound evil. Are you also against antibiotics?
Sadly, the Reuters story of Dow paying $12Billion is false.
So a corporation allows the boardmembers to escape ethical responsibility for their group actions, and when the brown stuff hits the fan the company goes bust and nobody is left responsible.
I think governments should be responsible for the actions of companies that belong to them - which implies companies must belong to a government. After all, the government(s) will be profiting from illegal acts via taxation.
If I remember correctly, the facility was down due to a labor strike prior to the release. Water snuck into a methyl isocyanate (MIC) tank and caused the reaction which led to the gas leak. I think the labor strike had a lot to do with the safety systems being down.
Slashdot needs to interview Natalie Portman.
"After a legal agreement the firm provided victims with compensation averaging $500 (£300)."
So that's what a life is worth to a multinational corporation?
I can't believe we haven't realized that capitalism is bad, and all corporations are evil. Why can't we just have government, our savior, do everything for us. These sorts of disasters would never happen then.. Thinking of how caring and thoughtful communist governments are towards their people makes me glow green with envy... or is that just the residual radiation from the reactors at chernobyl...
-- Greg
Slashdot, would a spell-checker for posting be too much to ask? It's not rocket science!
The Bhopal plant was jointly owned by Union Carbide and the Indian government, with the government owning 51%. The plant was run by Indian workers. Most of the deaths occurred not in the town of Bhopal, but in the shanty town that went up next to the plant after the plant was built.
I don't want to degrade the tragedy that these people have gone through.
However, this incident highlights that in America and the rest of the world where labor is given the respect and government protection that it deserves, companies that want to do business simply can't compete. How can any company who locates itself in a country with labor protections compete against companies that can simply *kill* their workforce by locating themselves in countries who turn a blind eye to such behavior.
The USA, and other countries with labor protection need to stop doing business with companies who take advantage of countries without proper protection. Why do we have labor laws when we allow and even *encourage* businesses to locate in places without them?
Mad Software: Rantings on Developing So
When you hear shit like "the terrorists hate our freedom," think of Bhopal. Around 3k people died on 9/11. In Bhopal, the lasting death toll is somewhere around 15,000. I wonder if Anderson would have been allowed to settle if 15,000 Americans had died.
Mod me down if you want, I have karma to burn. But I'd sure like to see some magnetic yellow ribbons to support the victims of US multinational homicide. Mox
If they didn't have enought people to run the plant they could have shut it down till the strike was over.
Blaming the strikers is just stupid as management made the decision to keep the plant running.
This story comes up every year. Sure, this was a tragedy, but several independent studies and investigations have been done to show that this was sabatoge. The introduction of water into the storage tank could have only been done by somebody with intimate knowledge of the procedures.
Hopefully their government will start to push for standards from companies that come and park in their counrty. I hope mexico sees this also as we are using them as whores for producing materials.
All we can do is hope that they take this tragedy and move towards standards of business and living that will move them towards a better life style.
here is a link with a recent article the disaster is believed to be the result of sabotage. Also, union carbide claned up most of the site and it is now in the hands of the Indian gov. In addition they paid hundreds of millions in compensation but almost all of it was lost in the government and the victims got nothing. There are far to many sides to blame. To call the story above wrong would be a gross understatement.
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
- They exist because they are legally entitled to exist.
- They exist to make money.
Therefore, they will do nothing unless they are legally compelled to do it, or unless it will make them money, either now or in the future.See this movie.
Read any good sonnets lately?
Wow. Thanks for that obscure factoid, Sparky. Pesticides kill things. Huh. Who knew?
I'm sure there's a clever comment to be had here about floods and dihydrogen monoxide here, but I'm far too weary.
--- Ban humanity.
This is not a story when technology failed..
This is a story of corruption, of not having any fail safe mechanisms or adequate safety measures, of negligence, of politicians willingly selling their souls and of those who they represent and of a system which failed to protect its own.
A thousand fingers could be pointed and in this horrible disaster, anywhere you point, you can find guilty who are still sheltered by the law, by the money they have willingly spent for their own defense and none for the people who suffered.
Union Carbide / Warren Anderson and Dow Chemical - Till now, they have chosen not to accept any form of responsibility and instead suggest sabotage. Union Carbide had spent a paltry sum before they agreed to pay 470 million of which hardly one third has been paid to its victims for the lack of any judicial oversight and sadly, corruption at the heart of the system. Even the 470 million that hopefully will be disbursed one day, hardly 2000 dollars will go to the families of those who died and 500$ to those who lost everything but their lives. Hardly a sum for the cost of a human life...
Union Carbide's response cleverly attempts to distance itself from the tragedy by calling the Bhopal plant owned by an indian firm. Clever, but it also serves to belittle the scope of this disaster and the lives that were snuffed out.
Would this be the same outcome if this had happened elsewhere, or in the developed world? And wouldnt a proper clean up in order or long completed if this were anywhere else.
Warren Anderson never saw the inside of a prison and still lives quite contently in Florida or NY and the US judicial system has done its part by denying the extradition requests by India. The Indian system on the other hand has comfortably chosen to neglect the cries for justice and has happily moved on..
Rediff.com has a sombre look at the tragedy, its victims, those who were forgotten, and those who still suffer.
One more reason not to trust corporations..
Also no additional compensation is planned and Dow has not apologized or owned up to this tragedy as the last part of the slashdot post. It is a hoax and was unknowingly perpetrated by a BBC interview. Read the AP article first (it drips accountability which is the last thing Dow or any corporation would do)and the proof its a hoax
Rapid Nirvana
I wasn't jabbing at America, I was jabbing at the lack of international justice in matters such as this.
A foreign company was responsible for large-scale devastation and deaths in thousands, and yet the management of the company get away scot-free.
Don't you think it's a little unfair? Swindling money and getting away with it (a la Enron) is one thing, but killing people and getting away with it is another.
Over 15,000 people were killed and thousands more have been scarred for life. The entire ecological system in that city is in ruins and there is no life or vegetation growing there.
There is something called responsibility for your actions. Just because you are a corporation does not excuse you from that. American or not.
"BBC World said yesterday it was duped in an "elaborate deception" by a man who claimed to be a Dow Chemical Co spokesman and said the US company accepted responsibility for India's Bhopal disaster."
The story
- Doctors kill in ones.
When I am king, you will be first against the wall.
I just want to put the following quote: The survivors have been minimally compensated, but as time passes, enough of them have died that compensation may now be in the works. in the context of the Indian Legal system.
The Indian Legal system is notorious for the lack of speed with which the wheels of justice turn. Even for the smallest cases ten years from filing to final disposition is not unusual.
I recently read an article which discussed several cases from the 1950s that is still in the courts and still being fought.
Yours,
Jordan Dea-Mattson
Today's one of those days when you can really see the difference between what the rest of the world is talking about and what the US media is covering by looking at google news and comparing it to the US sites. No mention of this historic anniversary anywhere in the US media, but pretty clear it's weighing on the minds of people everywhere else.
But, you know, if Julia Roberts has twins...
There is the concept of scapegoating at play here. Do you really thing that Anderson had anything personally to do with the actions that night? Even remotely indirectly it's a big reach.
What happened was a shame, and awful. An industrial disaster that was unmitigated in it's terror and destruction.
A nearly $500 million settlement was reached with the government of India to repair to extend possible. That's 1980's dollars, by the way. That's a lot of money in India.
A crime equally nasty is that the government in India has done virtually no good with that money.
everytime i hear DOW mentioned in this discussion it reminds me of how people can talk about something with almost no facts and jump to conclusions. The disaster was in 1984 at a union carbide plant. In 2001 DOW bough union carbide. Now, how is DOW to blame here?
The war with islam is a war on the beast
The war on terror is a war for peace
The Reuters story you quoted is based on a hoax. See the BBC's retraction.
A plant not taking safety precautions and having cost-cutting measures that killed thousands is not the same as a company making weapons.
Corporate greed is not a 100% American trait.
Where oh where in my post did I even mention America? I merely said that it should be the same for ALL companies, no matter what or where you're from.
We're not here to discuss corporations of other countries and their behaviors - I was talking about Dow Chemical and how the US is being quite unethical in not extraditing someone whose "cost-cutting measures" killed thousands.
Perhaps someone else can verify the facts. What I understood was:
The president (ceo?) of UC turned up in India immediately after the incident. He said that he was horrified and the company would do everything it could to make things better. The Indian government then arrested him. After that UC brought in the lawyers and the result is what you see today. Advice to the Indians: You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.
The reason the compensation for the victims is so pitiful is that it was done under Indian law. In Indian law, if you accidentally kill someone, the compensation is based on what they would have been worth at the end of their life. In most cases, that is pretty much zero. In American law, you get an amount that tries to reduce the consequences of the death. ie. If you are caring for your parents and are killed, the damages include an amount to replace that care. This produces much greater damages than the Indian case.
ABSURDITY, n.: A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with one's own opinion.
As long as we continue to allow company officers to bear no responsibility for the actions of a company we will continue to see events like this. It makes no sense whatsoever that the offices should not be held accountable for the offenses of the company. They are in the position of responsibility. That word apparently doesn't mean what it used to, because they are seldom expected to actually take responsibility. They have all of the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
Personally I think that if we're not going to punish the company officers then we have only one other solution. If corporations want to be treated as a person (and in many ways they are) we should treat them as a person and accept them to assume the responsibility for their actions. Therefore if a company kills thousands of people it is a mass murderer and it should be destroyed or incarcerated permanently without chance of parole, its resources sold at auction to pay for the legal action... and maybe even to provide restitutions.
US$500M is nothing compared to even one human life lost in the pursuit of greed. Can there be any doubt that the safety measures were skimped on simply to save money? When people die due to someone's greed then the perpetrator should suffer more than a loss of money.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
The Bhopal disaster isn't necessarily the worst industrial accident. Many people give that distinction to the collapse of the Baia Mare Dam, a tailings dam for a gold mine, holding water laced with cyanide and heavy metals. It dumped on the order of 100,000 cubic meters of this stuff into the Danube, killing tons and tons of fish and poisoning the drinking water of millions in Hungary. Luckily, the Australian parent company had an excellent Public Relations contract; this wasn't even news in Europe, much less in the USA.
m l
Here's one link to it.
http://www.antenna.nl/wise/uranium/mdafbm.ht
fsh
You are comparing a terrorist attack against an accident. Sure both were tragic, but the intent is vastly different. I'm not saying someone should not be responsible, but you are ocmparing apples and oranges.
Umm.. 9/11 was a direct attack. Bhopal was an accident. Analogies are dangerous when missused.
Jeez, could your bias be any more obvious?
Pesticides are not "deadly to life"; they're first and foremost deadly to insects...and because of this property, they dramatically cut the losses in raising food crops, allowing more people to be fed on less farmland, which means that more land can remain uncultivated.
Next up: anti-biotics kill germs, and thus are "deadly to life".
And after that: suregons use hot water and soap in the prep room before operating...two things that are "deadly to life".
And after that: farmers use combines to harvest grains...which results in all of the plants being killed. More "deadly to life" technology!
Pfffttt.
The Bhopal plant was jointly owned by Union Carbide and the Indian government, with the government owning 51%.
Straight from the horse's mouth: http://www.bhopal.com/facts.htm
FACT: The Bhopal plant was built, owned and operated by Union Carbide India Limited (UCIL). Union Carbide held 51 percent of the shares in UCIL, the Indian government owned 26 percent, and some 24,000 private Indian citizens owned the balance.
FACT: Union Carbide never actually operated in India. Rather, Union Carbide India Ltd. (UCIL), a separate company 50.9% owned by Union Carbide, was controlling the operation of the Bhopal factory at the time of the tragedy. Following the tragedy, the Government of India ceased production at the plant and took complete control of the property.
Bhopal.com is run by Union Carbide so you can't question this source.
When you neglect security to a point where accidents are bound to happen sooner or later, do you still not think we should hold the responsible accountable?
If you continue your line of thought, you could say that the terrorists of 11/9 only wanted to do material damage, but human lives was lost by accident.
Given the current situation in the USA, where corporations have the same rights as people then they should bear the same responsibilities.
As CEO of the company Warren Anderson is the person in which these responsiblities rest.
To extend the analogy - who effectively is responsible for Abu Ghraib?
For those who of you claiming they met their responsibilities and that the Indian government was somehow to blame here's some food for thought:
An enquiry towards the official position on their stance on the whole debacle received this response (translated by me, reads pretty much the same in norwegian):
Union Carbide have nothing but the highest respect and compassion for the populace of Bhopal, however Union Carbide have no interesents - nor any responsibility for - the Bhopal-facilities.
"" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
That you answered seriously to an obvious humour post, or that it was modded "Insightful".
It's better to be the foot on the boot than the face on the pavement. ~~ tkx Kadin2048
That word apparently doesn't mean what it used to, because they are seldom expected to actually take responsibility. They have all of the benefits and none of the drawbacks.
If a person is head of a multi-national company with 150,000 employees, is that person personally criminally liable for the actions of every single employee?
Additionally, you claim that if one life is lost in the pursuit of profit they person responsible should be in jail. Fine if you think that. But that's every accidental industrial accident, ever. For the right amount of money any accident can be prevented. Period. Any. There isn't an industrial accident that couldn't be prevent given the right amount of cash. Any death at the hands of a corporation in your system would require the CEO to be imprisoned.
Corporations have limited liability for a reason. It is impossible to run a large company and not have issues of wrong-doing come up in the company. We need large companies. Large companies were not possible before limited-liability companies were concieved.
9/11 was a direct attack. Bhopal was an accident. Analogies are dangerous when missused.
Blatant disregard for safety procedures and lax management make accidents? If I blatantly disregard the law and fail to secure my child in a seat belt, then get into an accident, I am criminally liable for his injuries. If I oversaw a chemical plant, failed to ensure safety systems were online and safety precautions were taken by my workers, and an "accident" occurred, I should be liable.
9/11 could be the same thing -- our government had information but failed to act on it. As far as I am concerned, our government is criminally liable for failing to do *anything* about 9/11 before it happened, even if just acknowledging the possibility and making a token gesture by alerting the FBI.
24 beers in a case, 24 hours in a day. Coincidence? I think not!
Guilt by criminal negligence is still guilt. Terrorists killed people because of their beliefs. The men who piloted those planes thought they were doing good, and believed in it enough to die with their targets. Monstrous, but true. Plus, their supporters and organisation were properly punished for it (except, of course, the conspicuously free mastermind).
Those 15,000 Indians were not killed for any such passionate reasons - they simply weren't worth enough to bother protecting. They were killed for money, for the price of a few intelligent safety measures. The perpetrators of that crime not only didn't die in its commission, they haven't been punished.
"BHOPAL: THE SEARCH FOR JUSTICE
Dec 4th - San Francisco
Dec 5th - Stanford, 1:30 pm, Bechtel Intl Center
Screening and Discussion
with NADEEM UDDIN , Director
On December 3, 1984, the Union Carbide pesticide plant in Bhopal, India leaked poisonous methyl isocyanate gas killing fifteen thousand helpless men, women and children. Hundreds of thousands more were permanently maimed. Bhopal was, and remains, the world's worst chemical industry disaster" http://ektaonline.org/events/bhopal/index.htm
and wikipedia doesn't mention one either. And the amount of water involved was rather large, several hundred liters, so it did not just sneak in. It is unknown how and why the water got into the tank, but none of the possible reasons usually discussed (a misguided attempt to clean the tank, a wrongly connected nitrogen pipe, sabotage) makes Union Carbide look good.
And even if there was a strike: wouldn't you expect management to make sure that your plant doesn't blow up in case of a simple labor dispute?
Warren Anderson was never the chairman of Dow Chemical. He was the chairman of Union Carbide at the time of the disaster, and retired from that position within a couple of years. Dow did not acquire UC until 1999. It is Dow's position that the $470 million settlement that was paid in 1989 (of which $330 million remained in July of 2004, when an Indian court ordered it to be disbursed to survivors) satisfies its financial obligations. I'm not sure that I agree, though I really don't have enough facts about the site and the terms of the 1989 settlement to have an informed opinion. It does not appear that the Indian government did a very good job of negotiating a settlement, though, and I would say that it also bears some responsibility for following up on the site cleanup. That should have been part of the settlement (for UC to do the cleanup), and UC should have been held responsible for getting the cleanup accomplished.
Floating face-down in a river of regret...and thoughts of you...
Yes, actually, I do think he was responsible for the events that transpired. The plant was designed with many safety systems to prevent a release of toxic chemicals, however, the plant was operating with most of those systems disabled. That's deliberate and criminal negligence on the part of the company officers because they knew the systems were disabled and put their profits ahead of the safety of both their employees and everyone living in the surrounding area.
Fanatically anti-fanatical
The design of the unit at Institute, WV was supposed to be identical to the Indian unit. We were always told that Bhopal tragedy was caused by deliberate sabatoge. MIC is water reactive. The system was designed so that water could not be introduced into it. The water and steam hoses had fittings that could not be attached to the connectors on the MIC storage to prevent water from being introduced to the system. Someone at the Indian unit had cut the end off of a water hose and attached a connector that would fit the MIC system and introduced water into the system. A chemical reaction occured causing the vapor cloud to be released into the atmosphere.
MIC is used in the making of insecticides. It is one of the main ingredients of Seven, along with Phosgene and Chlorine, two other poisonous gases. Phosgene is the name of the mustard gas used in World War I. Basically insecticides are nerve agents designed to work on insects. Many of the ingredients are lethal to humans as well.
An "accident" which is a direct consequence of wilful negligence on this scale is no accident, it is a situation waiting to happen.
God knows how many other similar situations like this exist in the world, but those responsible are putting people's lives just as surely at risk. If anything, the profit-line motivation makes them more criminally culpable than terrorists attempting to underline a political or religious point.
This is true, but it does not absolve Union Carbide and its executives of responsibility. On 9/11, the deaths were the result of a deliberate attempt to kill. In Bhopal, the deaths were a foreseeable result of reckless neglect of safety and concern only for money. In the United States, that would be roughly the difference between first- and second-degree murder*.
If a similar accident took place on U.S. soil, the press, the public, and the politicians would be screaming for blood. Do you think that Dow Chemical could 'accidentally' release a few tons of (say) chlorine, kill a couple thousand people, and then close the book on it with a million or two in settlements and a mea culpa?
*Yes, yes. IANAL.
~Idarubicin
I'm sorry, Union Carbide owned 51%, and the Indian government owned 26%. The union carbide site, bhopal.com, even says so.
I've read that the refrigerant safety system (meant to slow/stop the chemical reaction that takes place if water gets into the storage tank) had been shut down and the freon shipped TO ANOTHER PLANT. That wasn't the act of a disgruntled employee, that was management.
Lea
Here's a question to ask.
So, a company builds a plant and generates a whole bunch of binders full of safety procedures.
They then hire people who've got experience in chemical manufacturing and train them on the excepted way to run the plant (based off of the safety procedures).
Now, when these people don't follow procedures, don't keep equipment properly maintained and an accident (such as not closing a value so that when the system was flushed out with water, water would inavertently enter a tank full of a chemical that reacts explosively with water, whose fault is it?
Is it the fault of the operators of the plant?
Is it the fault of the company for not doing enough oversight?
I don't know enough about the Bhopal accident, but I'm suspecting it was probably a bit inbetween.
Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
They now make all those wonderful chemicals in Charleston, WV.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Lost Sheep to Shepard, you got your ears on?
If a person is head of a multi-national company with 150,000 employees, is that person personally criminally liable for the actions of every single employee?
He is responsible for having procedures in place that it does not happen.
I diasgree a little. I don't think someone can be held responsible for inaction. Lets say you're in a grocery store and it gets held up. The grocery clerk can't take me in because I hid in the corner. You could have helped, and didn't and are therefore responsible? no.
However, if someone is flagrantly negligent, then its another story. For example, If I have a factory with a machine. Workers are paid to use this machine. I fail in my duties to maintain the machine and it explodes injuring workers. That is my fault because I failed to perform my duty to the best of my abilities.
What it comes down to is responsibility. UC had a responsibility to make the plant safer and not explode. They failed and are responsible for the effects. 9/11 they have a responsibility to protect the country. In order to hold anyone liable you have to examine each individuals personal responsibility and then evaluate how well they performed vs. how they could have performed and what the effects of their failures where. A much more complicated affair.
As for the grocery clerk, I'm not responsible for his security.
The GeekNights podcast is going strong. Listen!
I had to study Bhopal for a business ethics class about 8 months ago. If memory serves, the plant had American managers on-site. The site underwent numerous safety inspections, and continuously failed them. Despite the prescriptions of the inspectors, nothing was ever done. At least one person in management state-side was getting reports from the inspectors, and nothing was done to encourage the managers in India to comply, or to punish them for not complying. So, yes, the on-site managers of the plant are responsible, and whoever was getting the inspection reports and ignoring them is also responsible. These are the people that should be extradited.
Conversely, I suppose it doesn't matter to you if someone in such a position is negligent and willfully does such things to increase profit? Seriously, this country is filled with nothing but corporate brainwashed fools.
If you are the Captain of the ship, you should go down with the ship.
"If a person is head of a multi-national company with 150,000 employees, is that person personally criminally liable for the actions of every single employee?"
If he's negligent in properly running the factory, yes. He is the boss. That's why he gets paid big dollars. If he's not doing his job then he should pay the price. If he can't handle the responsibility then he has no business being in that position. However, if the incident occurs due to the failure of a single workman, then sure he's off the hook. This disaster was due to gross negligence that took place undoubtedly at the behest of the senior executive staff of the company. They should pay. They should pay dearly.
Corporations and the people who work for those corporations need to be held responsible for their actions. This shit goes too damn far.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
This article says the fake spokesperson claims to be a member of the Yes Men group, who has been doing this sort of thing for a while. But there is not confirmation of the Bhopal hoax on their site. (The hoaxster could be lying!)
Here's the salient bit from the article:
"Finisterra, whose identity could not be confirmed, later told BBC's Radio 4 he was part of the group Yes Men, which hoaxes businesses and governments and which has gone after Dow before over Bhopal."
I know it's quite popular to think of large organizations as having some sort of collective brain (like the Borg on ST:TNG), but this just isn't the case. In the 9/11 case, one person in the government had information that an attack was planned by Islamic terrorists, another person had information that Islamic flight school students were acting very suspiciously, but these two people never met. They never talked to each other, they didn't even know the other person existed, let alone what information they had. Could somebody have put it all together? Possibly, yes. But it wasn't likely, and it didn't happen.
As for the token gesture you mention, that was already done -- the FBI (which is part of the government after all) was the organization that knew about the flight school students. Perhaps you meant the FAA or the airlines? Then I would agree. Also, a case could also be made that not having hijacker-resistant cockpit doors was negligent (it's not like 9/11 was the first airplane hijacking).
The Bhopal case is entirely different from 9/11. UC was in the business of making dangerous chemicals. Everything at that plant was under direct control of UC. If UC officials neglected proper safety procedures (I take no position on whether they did), they should be held criminally liable for damages caused.
I'm not sure I should even respond to a troll like this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, to say that is preposterous is being quite generous. If you've followed any of the videos from Usama you can see that they wanted to hit the American people, not just the towers. The fact that the towers fell was beyond their greatest expectations. If they wanted to minimize the casualties, they would have crashed into the very top of the towers or attacked them at a different time of day or even attacked a different, less populated target. Saving lives was not only not a priority, it was contradictory to their plans. The plan was to attack an American icon and if civilians died, all the better.
So mod up this parent all you want, but it's not going to make it any more valid a line of arguing.
Let's just leave it at being a terrible tragedy that could (probably) have been easily avoided had the Indian or American company intervened, as they should have. Should someone be held criminally responsible? Sure. Should the people receive some of the $470 million that was paid to the Indian government? Sure. Should the victims receive more compensation (or any) directly from Dow? Sure. Is this tradegy comparable to a terrorist act? Not even remotely.
Let's not forget that the reason Union Carbide was in there to begin with was because the Indian government created an environment where western companies could pay workers less than market wages, have lax environmental laws, and pretty much run a shoddy operation in order to get money. That business in India could have easily been located in the United States, but, instead, the Indian government allows its workers to be payed less and treated worse to get its competitive advantage. Declaring the head of Union Carbide a fugitive and playing victim is a red herring designed to cover the tracks of a completely corrupt system that is designed to elevate one caste while others are expendable. If you want to prevent Bhopals, insist that foreign governments have rules to make companies paying the same wages and same safety standards as their western counterparts.
This is my sig.
Untrue. Russia has, by far, the most Nuclear warheads. You can add up all the world's nuclear powers (US, Britian, France, China), and you still don't equal the number of warheads in Russia. US has 10,000, and Russia has 18,000, if memory serves.
I think this is a good example of the demonizing of America that is so popular these days. I'm an American in Europe, and here it is amazing how igorant the European media and population are about America. Sure, America has done plenty to be upset about (I'm not too happy with an awful lot right now), but the amount of disinformation is breathtaking.
I think it is completely in-context to point out that this may not even be a subject if Dow were not American. A Q Khan arms up the world's rogue nations with Nuclear weapons, and gets a full pardon by his government. Russia supplied (illegally) GPS jammers to Iraq. Then let's talk about Chairman Mao: we don't even blink when the Chinese talk about that mass murderer like a hero. Were was his justice?
Right now, hating America, whether with or without reason, is popular. I get hit with all sorts of stereotypes here. But, above all, my favorite thing is that, once my European friends learn that I am well traveled, well read, and have a pretty informed view of the world, they are completely unable to comprend those qualities from an American. So they label me as an a-typical American just to get around having to examine the problems with their own beliefs.
Sarcasm and hyperbole are the final refuges for weak minds
Survivors not compenstated: wrong. There was a settlement, but the *Indian* court system has had it tied up for years. IIRC the settlement was in the 400 million dollar range, and it did a good job of bankrupting UC.
Dow Chemical is somehow responsable: Wrong. Dow chemical bought what was left of Union carbide in the late 80's / early 90's, long after the disaster settlements had been made. Holding Dow responsable for Bhopal would be like an AMX owner suing DiamlerChrysler 20 years after getting a settlement out of AMX.
Union Carbide ran an evil nasty horrible pit of dispair of a factory. Right. Sorta. The plant fell in line with many Indian safety standards, which at the time were no where near what our standards are. Of course inspections and safety take a back seat to giving people a job in developing countries. This is nothing new.
Bhopal was a horrifying disaster, but the impression I'm getting is that India is becoming a truly western society. The scummy lawyers are shooting out of the woodwork to go after the deepest pockets. UC's former chairman stil works for Dow, but once the courts on both sides get their heads out of their asses, he'll end up facing charges in India, it's just a matter of time
There are some people that if they don't know, you can't tell 'em.
> Were these safeguards required by law?
Unambiguously, yes. In addition to a reasonably well developed set of Health and Safety laws for a third world country, India has the usual common law system of damages for breach of duty of care, (the tort of negligence). It does not have US-style punitive or trebled damages, what is being sought here is merely the cost of putting people back into the position they were previously in, so far as the damage caused to them was forseeable by the company at the time.
The real problem here is with the corporate fashion for holding companies with large numbers of subsidiaries. As each subsidiary is nominally a separate legal person (notwithstanding, with 100% subsidiaries, the tendency for all to follow the topco's orders), the topco is able to avoid corporate responsibility.
Aren't Jerry, Kramer, George and Elaine in jail for this very offense?
--
"Outlook not so good." That magic 8-ball knows everything! I'll ask about Exchange Server next.
Dow has no plans to clean up the facility and no plans to compensate the survivors.
LOL MICAHEL
You're a complete fuck you and you know it. Why don't you get your head out of your ass and actually look past the "AMERIKAN CORPORATIONS ARE TEH SUCK!" viewpoint you have.
They have compensated to the tune of almost $500,000,000 and they have helped to clean the site up.
WHERE'S your BULLSHIT outrage against the Indian government for doing nothing? They had a 51% share in the plant for fuck sakes.
Sometime accidents just happen, but when 4000+ people are dead, we should probably find out how.
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
"A language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing" - Alan Perlis
The $480 million dollar settlement was reached between the Indian government and Union Carbide -- without the input of the families. To date, those affect have seen approximately US$300-500. That may be a lot in India but...
Does that cover the bloody, spontaneous miscarriage pregnant women suffered that night?
How about losing the primary bradwinner in the household?
MethylIsoCyanite killed those affected most severely by virtue of pulmonary edema. For those not medically inclined it means you drown in your own body fluids. People continue to suffer blindness, obscure cancers and all sorts of obscure disorders that are difficult to treat because of their rarity.
They have found that it also continue to have devastating effect on reproductive organs ensuring that the effects will be felt in their children and children's children. I hope I never get to see an earless, lipless or deformed child in person like the ones born there.
Isolate yourself from this tragedy if you want but just remember that corporations are isolated from responsibility and will continue to behave this way if someone does not step up to force people to think about the unique privilege enjoyed by corporations.
There were 6 safety systems incorporated in the design of the factory that were systematically disabled or misused that could have truly limted the impact. Why? Because this factory was not profitable in selling the pesticides, and they were going to shut it down anyway. Never mind that MIC (the toxin) should never have been stored in the megacontainers they stored them in (plant safety would dictate 55-gallon drums, not enough to store 40 TONS of this gas).
Alas, this is the way of the world. We understand that Union Carbide was not necessarily out to do what happened. Technically, it's not their fault right? I think it's the perfect example of what allows to go unchecked, and how legal liability and fiduciary responsibility take precedent over justice.
-- Just another bleeding heart.
That wasn't due to an evil corporation though so it doesn't count.
Article
As far as wastelands go, how about the area surrounding the 70 tons of superheated nuclear waste that blew up in 1957 in rural russia.Article
- "a chemical plant run by Union Carbide". Whoa there. India is a semi-socialist country; it has some very strict laws limiting foreign ownership and control. It would be fairer to say "a company majority owned by the Indian Government, with Union Carbide as a minor partner". I realize this doesnt fit in with the "bad multinational american companies" bogey-man, but tough.
- "released about 40 tons of a toxic gas". Maybe it would be fair to state that this was an UNINTENTONAL release, probably caused by various factors including tired workers and labor unrest.
- "...plant was in the business of creating chemicals deadly to life." Well, if you call locusts, nematodes, chiggers, termites, ants, earwigs, wasps, et al, "life", I guess thats right. But a few people think it's a good idea in a country with a marginal food supply to save a few million human lives from death by starvation by producting chemicals to kill the above-listed lifeforms, so that humans might have a chance of eating some food.
- "Safety at the plant had not been a concern of management". Hmmm, let me think, let's assume the management has no concern for human life, including their own lives or those of their workers-- they just care about making money. In order to make money in that business, you have to be able to control dozens of chemical reactions, temperatures, pressures, flow rates, valves, pumps, manifolds, etc.. If you don't have the right control systems in place everywhere, things can quickly go out of control, and your many billion dollar plant is not making pesticides, it's making a mixture of 31% water, 38% salt, and 21% brown sludge. There HAVE to be extensive mechanisms in place to prevent chemical releases, at the very least those chemicals are expensive!
- "Today, the site remains a contaminated wasteland, unusable and never cleaned up." It comes down to economics: is the cost of cleanup less than the value of the land? India is not that small that it will miss a few acres.
- "The survivors have been minimally compensated". There's a fund of $328 million dollars. If that were spread evenly over the 3,000-some families of survivors, each family would get about $100,000 each. That's about 35 years of average earnings. I wouldnt call that "minimal".
Yes, it was a bad thing that happened, but it doesnt help to misdirect blame and energy.First of all, as another poster already pointed out, dihydrogen monoxide is the name most often used in parodies. Many compounds are known by more than one name.
Moreover, your reasoning is wrong IMHO, because HOH could represent a non-polar molecule if it were symmetric like this:
But as we both know, it has a V shape, with the oxygen at the bottom of the V (haven't drawn it, as the damn ecode doesn't work with spaces like pre).In fact, carbon dioxide has the structure O - C - O, but it's not polar because it's laid out in a straight line instead of a V.
I think H2O represents the structure of water better than HOH, because the two hydrogens are clearly on one side of the oxygen, not symmetrically apart. On the other hand HOH does represent the order of bonding better, but we're really talking about molecular, not structural formulae here.
Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
Law?!! What's that? In India there are no rights for anyone who doesn't have deep pockets or strong connections into the government or legal system. Everything in India is a privilege (personal safety, healthcare, electricity, clean water, clean air).
Any 'settlement' made with the govt. is simply distributed amongst the honorable (yeah right) public officials. Hence nothing ever makes it to the actual victims. Corruption is the cancer of India.
Apart from highly talented engineers and doctors (most of whom are outside India), India's legal and political system is a total farse. At the end of the day, no public official cares about the citizens. If you ever find yourself in a situation where you're dependent on a public agency or official - GOD help you. Bottom line, you're better off dead than alive.
Take this all with a grain of salt as I am a 1L. 2L's and 3L's please feel free to critique.
A few things, that really isn't fair on India
The government of India was the majority stakeholder. As such they knew or should have known the legal issues arising from a major industrial accident.
all those people who don't have much money are not going to come to the US and testify (also it would be easy from some key wittness to not get visa in time etc.).
Video deposition would be suffcient for the majority of witnesses. The rest could be on per-diem and the Indian government would have to plead special damages in order to re-coup their costs. If a key witness (that is a party required for just ajudication) was unavailable due to visa issues, I have no doubt that the federal judge in the case would start leaning on whoever it took to get the matter resolved.
If you are going to do business in another country, why shouldn't you have held accountable by it's laws?
If the contract with UC, the same one that gave India 51% ownership, specified that any legal action would be taken in the US then that was the contract that they signed. The clause that specified where legal action should commence is neither burdensome nor onerous.
Why should India lawyers before force into another legal system that they don't know?
There are a couple of ways to answer this. First, if they are a common-law country, then the method of how you prove a case is the same (case law nad statue law). Second, India would contract with a US law firm to do all of the sheparding through the federal court system. In some Federal courts the entire process is scheduled to a degree that significant understanding of the underlying complexities is not required. Third, if the Indian government can not find a lawyer experienced with US Federal civil practice to act as pointman then maybe they should think twice before letting a US corporation set up shop there.
What would happen if the it was an India who commited a crime the US, should he be tried in India?
Depends, is the citizen a private citizen or a corporate citizen? If the person is a private citizen then, much like a private US citizen abroad, they would be tried in the host country unless there was an agreement between host country and home country to extradite the individual. In the case of a corporate citizen then it would depend on the nature of the contract which the corporation is party to.
All that aside, my guess is that the Indian government does not want to try the case in Federal civil court because of the linient discovery requirments that might uncover information embarassing to themselves. With a public case like this, it is unlikely that a judge would order the records sealed.
between the greater and lesser infinities sleep the dreams undreamt
In the US, A "Good Samaritan Law" means, not a law that forces people to help out, but a law that holds them blameless if they do so. These types of laws were passed in reaction to some very nasty lawsuits where the good samaritan got sued afterward because his attempts to help were not well-informed and ended up causing damage. (i.e. giving someone CPR incorrectly and breaking a rib, when it turned out the person's problem required a heimlich maneuver instead of CPR, so the risk of breaking ribs that comes with CPR was unnecessary in the first place.)
Anyway, that kind of Good Samaritan law I agree with, but the kind you talk aobut, to make it *mandatory* that you do a good deed seems to be treading on dangerously thin ethical ice - it's a bit like mandatory tithing.
Don't label something "offtopic" unless you know the topic well enough to tell what's on topic.
Why not compare?
Osama believes the lives of thousands of innocent Americans are less important than his insane plans for Islam.
The US believes the lives of thousands of innocent Indians are less important than avoiding a precedent of holding corporations and their executives accountable for mass slaughter.
Our position on corporate negligence is no less despicable than Osama's on terrorism, and at least as deadly.
BTW, an accident is only an accident if you shoulder responsiblity for it. If you shirk it, then it becomes something worse.
Play Command HQ online
There is the concept of scapegoating at play here. Do you really thing that Anderson had anything personally to do with the actions that night? Even remotely indirectly it's a big reach.
Internal Union Carbide documents, released in the discovery phase of a civil lawsuit against the company, indicate that he and other executives had been warned by engineers of the poor safety mechanisms. A 1973 document, signed by Anderson himself, notes that the technology that would be used in the Bhopal factory was "unproven." A safety review conducted by Union Carbide experts in 1982 warned of a "serious potential for sizable releases of toxic materials" at the factory.
You can read part of the class action complaint against Anderson here.
How Politicians Lie: http://www.factcheck.org/
Here's a suggestion. Stop opening your mouth. The less you say the smarter you look.
- dopehead. In which case, this is just about some embassies owing NYC property taxes. Well I have news for you, embassies are not part of the UN. They are part of various foreign nations. So take your beef up with those nations, not with the UN.
0 227316
You asked, "should they pay rent?"
You do realize they own the fucking building, don't you? Perhaps you were refering to real estate taxes. But if you were, then you still don't know wtf you are talking about, because the land isn't part of the US it is international territory.
I'm guessing that you are just repeating from memory some lame rant from pick-you-favorite-reactionary-celebrity-oxycontin
RE 3 billion dollars a year. You ignorant slut. Here's a good breakdown of the '03 payments:
http://www.stimson.org/fopo/?SN=FO2002
Basically our annual dues are ~300 million. We pay more to fund peacekeeping operations across the globe. Those are all operations which we chose to be involved in, you might recall we have veto power over such things. And the grand total isn't even in the ball park of 3 billion a year.
RE: Massacres - Where in the UN charter do you see a mandate to be the world's policeman. It simply isn't what the UN was formed to do. Its a straw man argument. Anyway, it has taken on a lot of peacekeeping roles, including roles in all of the places you mentioned, which pretty much makes you look ignorant again - a running theme.
Re: 21 billion dollar scandal - The report comes out in January let's wait and see. That's what my Senator, Hillary, said. Although, it ain't looking good for Kojo. Anyway, I'm not up on the scandal, maybe you can fill me in on the details, but I bet the more details you get the less it will have to do with average New Yorkers and what they ought to think of the UN being in their backyard. In otherwords, I bet it is off topic.
Re:While other countries pay little or nothing - That's like the rich bitchin about paying more in taxes than the poor. The funny thing about being a rich american is that we materially benefit more from a stable world than does some poor bastard in the third world. The key to this is 'material' as in wealth. Our wealth requires stability and so we pay to keep it. That's reality, get over it.
Right, and somehow I doubt the terrorits' scheme took only 8 months to cook up. A good chunk of this was going on under Clinton's watch.
Now, I do agree that more head should have rolled though, particularly in the CIA...
A sentence you'll never see on an Internet discussion board: "You know what? You're right."
The details of the Bhopal disaster are well-documented. There is no new detail to speak of. UC is obviously, blatantly, indefensably guilty of ignoring critical safety precautions that directly resulted in this massive loss of life. And you, danheskett, sit there behind your keyboard and actually try to explain away and defend these actions with the most blinkered, ignorant red herrings and non sequiturs. Its fucking astonishing, and sickening. Why on earth you would deign to take this position is a mystery, unpenetrated by your bloviatings. Warren Anderson should go to jail and UC should have to pay restitution. Forget Indian law, forget corporate non-person responsability. They should do what's right. They haven't. It's a massive crime, and it's just that simple.
If Jesus wants me it knows where to find me.
Based on my memories of the event....
This is a question of where does the buck stop--with the probable perpetrators or incompetents who caused the accident, or with the regional VP, or with Indian government officials who exacerbated the problems, or with the president and chairman of the U.S. company that owned the plant. It's really not all that clear.
The Union Carbide Bhopal plant was operated and managed by Indians; it was an all-Indian staff. When the incident occurred that released toxic fumes, there were thousands of people living right outside the fences of the facility in shanty towns. It was not the smartest idea to live next to a chemical plant in the first place, but the Indians were lackadaisical about such things. After the incident, it was reported that the plant staff were dispersed to other parts of India and were mysteriously unavailable for questioning by the Americans. What's more, the whole incident was immediately blamed on the Americans by a hostile Indian government intent on scapegoating the U.S. and collecting billions of dollars in damages.
Recall that at this time India was the leader of the "unaligned movement", a group of nations which played the U.S. off against the U.S.S.R. Indira Gandhi was quite anti-American and India was very restrictive about foreign investments. Consequently poverty endured there until very recently, when the information revolution finally cracked their shell open.
Yes, Bhopal was a terrible tragedy, but the Indian government deserves some of the blame for their craven role as an exploiter of the disaster for political purposes.
it's = "it is"; its = possessive. E.g., it's flapping its wings.
As much as I would like hold the people responsible, I wouldn't know where to start. I think we are going to find Jimmy Hoffa before we ever find out the truth about this. This goes much deeper than any of the drivel you're going hear here.
Although your last statement may appear harsh(sorry you got modded down), it's closer to the truth about the man than most people will admit. It seems that the election was decided by the very things you mention. It would be sad to think that such whackos really do outnember the rest of us. It helps me to understand why blacks and some other minorities feel so disenfranchised. Turns out that they are. They could all vote for the same thing, and they will still lose. Now we can add any reasonable person to that list. It shows that fear, uncertainty, and doubt will always win. Unless the 49% of the electorate that loses has some voice in their gov't, American style democracy is doomed, and will descend into total mayhem. What little respect the people have for their gov't then will completely disappear. Only a nationwide epiphany can possibly save them now. Otherwise the violent revolution cycle will once again repeat itself, and of course the final result will be the same as the last revolution. And also of course in the meantime there will be many more Bhopal type disasters to come.(There. I'm back on topic.). The real failure to prosecute those bastards is really our failure. We didn't demand it. We failed to put people in charge that would demand it. Same applies to the Micosoft case, the Ford Pinto, the space shuttle, 9/11...you name it. I know that only I can be responsible for my own personal misfortunes, and nobody else, no matter what. I also feel that we are all partialy responsible for what happened in Bhopal. For our species to survive we do indeed need to care for each other. This every man for himself mentality that we suffer now is unsustainable.
What?
Quite correct. The technical term I was grasping for--but couldn't quite reach, this morning--was "depraved indifference". Deaths as a consequence of depraved indifference qualify as second-degree murder in New York state; in other jurisdictions your mileage may vary. (Here's the PDF of the standard directions to a New York jury for a depraved indifference second degree murder charge; also available the Google HTMLified version.)
Obviously, such a criminal finding might be challenging to come by. You'd have to prove that specific individuals at Union Carbide knew that their facility was unsafe, and that a fatal accident was a reasonably foreseeable outcome, and that they failed to take reasonable steps to protect the public. It is indeed a high bar to clear.
~Idarubicin
That's just hand-waving. Look at what India did over here! Ignore the man behind the curtain.
You're talking about criminal liability as if it had something to do with morality or what is best for society. It doesn't, and you shouldn't pretend it does. Laws are made primarily by people who were put in power by people with financial power, and who are indebted to the people who got them where they are today. If you think that laws reflect the will of the people, and/or are intended to help them, you are sadly deluded. The laws are intended to help the people who have the clout to get them passed, nothing more.
He is the CEO. He is supposed to be responsible for the company. He is not held responsible because of the way the laws of the world are laid out - to protect the already-rich so they can get richer, killing people in the process. He is as responsible for the deaths of those people as if he did throw a switch, because managing the company is his responsibility. Not just to make money, however, but also to behave responsibly. Failing to hold anyone responsible for this gross failure to maintain safety standards is clearly not the answer.
Does nothing? Who paid you to write this shit? Or are you a CEO already? Putting the CEOs in prison when shit like this happens means the other CEOs will care about safety measures. It doesn't work to prevent ordinary, run-of-the-mill crimes because people who commit those crimes are deluded and/or desperate and they don't care about the consequences - they [feel that they] have nothing to lose. These people are different. They are in a position to prevent things like this from happening, but they don't because it would take away from their salary, and because they are not punished if they fail to do so. By making apologies for them as you are doing you are helping things like this happen - in other words, you are guilty of helping people murder people through negligence. It's murder because these people realize they're running companies that could kill people, and they decide not to make sure they're not doing something that WILL kill people. It's premeditated. And you're helping. Congratulations.
Again, this is plain handwaving. This is a horrible thing but it's not what we're talking about right now. The fact (assuming that it is a fact) that the money has not been spent to help the people who were harmed, and/or those who have survived them, is a separate issue. I agree it is worthy of discussion and inspection, but you're trying to distract people from the root problem. That problem
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
You'll want to look into something called "piercing the corporate veil," which became common in British-derived legal systems in the late 1800s. India almost certainly has a similar mechanism.
The real problem here is not knowing the details of the UC incident. The people at fault were the local managers, not the corporate head. Whereas there's no question that Dow does some scumbag things in third world countries, what caused the UC incident was a series of simple mechanical errors, including safety valves left open, stop checks (little metal plates that go into the pipe sideways) weren't in place, et cetera.
Look, I'm not defending Dow. Still, get your facts straight before you start pointing fingers. There's a good reason that this hasn't gone up the chain, and it's not because of corporate legal abuse. You would do well to watch for the History Channel special on the incident, which will give you a bunch of facts you're missing; whereas it's hardly a comprehensive view of the situation, it's fairly clear that you'd benefit from the very basics.
In this case, Dow had the safety hardware in place. Granted the underground tanks were irresponsibly large, and granted that would eventually have led to a similar catastrophe, that is not what happened here. Just because they were on the path to negligence doesn't mean that everything that goes wrong is their fault. This was local error, not international greed.
Mod parent subterranean.
StoneCypher is Full of BS
9/11 was the single largest failure of US security agencies in history
Not to pick nits or anything, but the single largest failure of US security agencies would probably be Pearl Harbor. We were actually reading the Japanese communications at the time.
What part of "shall not be infringed" is so hard to understand?