Search Engines for Handwritten Documents

Who still reads those? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-12-03 10:26 · Score: 5, Funny

In America, handwriting is only for old people.

Re:Who still reads those? by gcaseye6677 · 2004-12-03 10:37 · Score: 5, Interesting

Cursive writing certainly is. I can barely even read it anymore, much less write it. Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive, other than when they made you do it in elementary school?
Re:Who still reads those? by Sheepdot · 2004-12-03 10:42 · Score: 1

... and second-graders.
Re:Who still reads those? by Sheepdot · 2004-12-03 10:47 · Score: 4, Funny

I write out my checks in cursive. The other day I was admiring how pretty my cursive looked and how well it had developed from when I was in second grade and told to "TRY HARDER WEAKLING OR YOU WILL NEVER GET A JOB!". Then I realized just how ghey it was that I was enjoying the sight of it and hurridly gave it to the cashier... who was a guy... who (ick) winked at me.
Re:Who still reads those? by realdpk · 2004-12-03 10:48 · Score: 3, Insightful

I wish they'd never taught cursive. Cursive destroyed my handwriting. At least, that's my current theory on why my handwriting sucks. :)
Re:Who still reads those? by smacktits · 2004-12-03 10:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

I'm 23 and I write in perfect cursive. In fact, I prefer it to typing. Maybe I like it because I suffered a serious injury to my hand when I was 12 that necessitated my learning to use it again from scratch.. I dunno. I just like to write, it relaxes me.
Re:Who still reads those? by Feynman · 2004-12-03 10:51 · Score: 1

Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive, other than when they made you do it in elementary school?
When I was in sixth grade, my teachers all got together and decided to ban me from writing cursive (D'Nealian, to be exact). I've never looked back.
(Of course, I just turned 30.)
Re:Who still reads those? by AceCaseOR · 2004-12-03 10:53 · Score: 1

I still write cursive occasionally, mainly in personal notes. If I'm writing something that I need somebody else to be able to read, I definatly print instead of using cursive.

--
Zagreus sits inside your head, Zagreus lives among the dead, Zagreus sees you in your bed and eats you in your sleep.
Re:Who still reads those? by jgardn · 2004-12-03 11:04 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yes, and I use it to record notes in my lab book I use at work. I record all sorts of things I discover there. Some entries are several pages long with charts and graphs and tables and diagrams. Try doing that in a few minutes in Word or OpenOffice.

The best part is I don't have to worry about backing up my lab books. The only real threat is fire, and it is no more dangerous than it is to CDs or hard drives.

While the cursive handwriting of the 1700's and early 1800's may seem curious to us (notably, the tall 's' that looks like an 'f'), it is a very easy style that is neat, legible, and painless. Notice how there are very few back strokes.

For those who are wondering, cursive is what you use when you get sick of trying to write in print legibly and quickly without getting carpal tunnel. Every culture has it. It's unfortunate it isn't common knowledge anymore in the US. Handwriting is a wonderful skill. It used to be people would judge others based on their handwriting skills in addition to their oratory.

--
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
Re:Who still reads those? by Lenale · 2004-12-03 11:11 · Score: 1

I write letters and such in cursive, but it's too slow for course notes... read: becomes a tangled mass of lines and ink blots.

I do write my lab journals in cursive, and three colours of pen... according to one of my classmates I'm not human. :)
Re:Who still reads those? by xgamer04 · 2004-12-03 11:17 · Score: 1

I had a friend in high school who always wrote in cursive, and this was...a year ago, so I'm pretty sure he's still under 30. I think that he was the only one in the whole school who still did, though.

--
When you look at the state of the world, how can you not become a radical, liberal anarchist?
Re:Who still reads those? by jacksonj04 · 2004-12-03 11:33 · Score: 1

I'm learning shorthand just to get notes down easily, it's well worth it if you plan on doing a lot of note taking.

Yes, I do write in cursive (admittedly on my palmtop, so it then just transcribes it).

--
How many people can read hex if only you and dead people can read hex?
Re:Who still reads those? by wintermute1000 · 2004-12-03 11:34 · Score: 1

I do. And I do it well, and I'm proud of it. Of course, I'm in the dying breed that considers the ability to write legibly by hand a part of fluency in one's language. Maybe I should just give in and go back to third grade where I belong.
Re:Who still reads those? by lucifuge31337 · 2004-12-03 11:44 · Score: 2, Interesting

Am I the only one who read this and actually thought "damn...I can write in cursive....I think...I should give that a try." And then shivered at the though of the nuns who toughit it to me, ruler-in-hand, readh to smack my knuckles with it if I screwed up.

Anyway, I watch Full Metal Jacket and it reminds me of Catholic school. To continue my rabmle, how many people who actually went to catholic school aren't curretly aethiest? I'm guessing not too many.

Here...let me help you out, mods:
(-1 Offtopic)

--
Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
Re:Who still reads those? by metlin · 2004-12-03 11:56 · Score: 1

I do not know, cursive made my handwriting better.

In fact, I've two sets of handwriting - all my equations and math stuff is written straight up, and the rest of the stuff goes cursive. Makes it a lot easier for me (and those reading it) to decipher what I've written.

Cursive also made me write a whole lot faster - the flow that you get from cursive is something that makes one enjoy writing.
Re:Who still reads those? by dvdeug · 2004-12-03 12:33 · Score: 1

The best part is I don't have to worry about backing up my lab books. The only real threat is fire, and it is no more dangerous than it is to CDs or hard drives.

There's also water. If I spill a Coke on my keyboard, all my data's safe; if I spill one on my notebook, it's all gone.

It used to be people would judge others based on their handwriting skills in addition to their oratory.

I'm quite happy those days are gone, and people will grade my work on its content rather than handwriting or typing skills.
Re:Who still reads those? by Trailwalker · 2004-12-03 12:40 · Score: 1

When I was a lad I served a term
As office boy to an attorney's firm
I cleaned the windows and I swept the floor
And I polished up the handle of the big front door
I polished up that handle so carefully
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy

As office boy I made such a mark
That they gave me the post of a junior clerk
I served the writs with a smile so bland
And I copied all the letters in a big round hand
I copied all the letters in a hand so free
That now I am the Ruler of the Queen's Navy

First Lord's Song from H.M.S. Pinafore
Re:Who still reads those? by mseidl · 2004-12-03 13:29 · Score: 1

He is so far in the closet he is finding Christmas presents...

My handwriting is soooo sloppy I can't even read it. It is really difficult. I bought a laptop for when I start school in January, and I plan to type out all my notes in class and record the audio session.

I am all for typing out equations though, as long as it looked cool like in the text books, and not some crappy font.
Re:Who still reads those? by tzanger · 2004-12-03 16:35 · Score: 1

When I was in sixth grade, my teachers all got together and decided to ban me from writing cursive (D'Nealian, to be exact). I've never looked back.

Why?
Re:Who still reads those? by CGP314 · 2004-12-03 19:48 · Score: 1

Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive, other than when they made you do it in elementary school?

I'm 23 and I use both print and cursive. I use print for anything that someone else will have to read (very rare) or for things people make me write that I don't really care about (taking notes in class). Cursive is used for things I want to write. For example, all the first drafts of my London Journal are done in cursive in a notebook I always keep on me.

-Colin
Re:Who still reads those? by dago · 2004-12-03 22:33 · Score: 1

"Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive ?"

Most of europeans ? In fact, that's the only thing I learned at school.

That's not to be yet another US-flaming stuff, but I was wondering into which countries people primarly write in cursive and which in "print" ...

--
#include "coucou.h"
Re:Who still reads those? by Hitmouse · 2004-12-03 23:39 · Score: 1

Yes, and I use it to record notes in my lab book I use at work. I record all sorts of things I discover there. Some entries are several pages long with charts and graphs and tables and diagrams. Try doing that in a few minutes in Word or OpenOffice.
Well actually you can in Word 2003 or, more handily, with OneNote http://www.onenote.com/, with dual text and handwriting support ... and both are searchable.
Re:Who still reads those? by derubergeek · 2004-12-04 04:49 · Score: 1

Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive

Just my name, and only in the snow.

--
Trust me. This is an inactive account. Regardless of what the /. bean counters might report.
Re:Who still reads those? by novakyu · 2004-12-04 07:45 · Score: 1

Does anybody else who is under 30 still write in cursive, other than when they made you do it in elementary school?
Ask me in 10 years and I'll say, "Well, I still write in cursive, but I'm over 30...."
Cursive have various uses, with proper training. Among various uses:
i) Letter/Card-writing. A well-written cursive looks so much better than awkward handwriting that breaks between every letter (instead of blocking off words nicely). And, a hand-written letter/card is more personal than a typed one.
ii) Note taking. With training, writing in cursive is definitely faster than any other writing. Sure, dotting the i's and crossing the t's might take some time... but, if you are really in hurry, you can forget about those and go back to it later.
iii) Note-to-self's. I have a few handwriting styles. Although I normally count my cursive handwriting as one style, there's a distinction between the handwriting I use on things I intend for other people to read and the handwriting I use for myself. The upside: the handwriting for myself is virtually incomprehensible to anyone but someone who's seen it for at least a year and knows the vocabularies I use frequently (I live by the principle, "If you can recognize the first four letters, you should know which word it is."). So, if it's something personal and it gets lost, I don't have to worry about other people reading it. :)
Re:Who still reads those? by novakyu · 2004-12-04 07:58 · Score: 1

In fact, I've two sets of handwriting - all my equations and math stuff is written straight up, and the rest of the stuff goes cursive. Makes it a lot easier for me (and those reading it) to decipher what I've written.
I have multiple handwriting styles (er, normal, cursive, and block-lettering ("small caps")), too, but I haven't tried exploiting that distinction.
Now, if I can practice writing a good cursive on blackboards, I can use that technique in my classes....
Re:Who still reads those? by arodland · 2004-12-04 09:30 · Score: 1

Where did they ever get the idea, anyway, that clerk should rhyme with mark, rather than with jerk, irk, work, and lurk?
Re: Who still reads those? by gidds · 2004-12-04 12:20 · Score: 1

Interesting you should ask, as I was recently discussing this with some friends. (Probably all over 30, though in my case only just.)
They all still use joined-up (cursive) writing, as do most other people I know. I, on the other hand, haven't used it since I was at uni and found I had trouble reading my writing: I investigated various writing styles and types, and concluded that I could print (i.e write mostly not joined-up) pretty much as fast as I could write joined-up, and that the result was vastly easier to read; I also found that it was still pretty readable even at speeds where my old writing would have degraded to a meaningless scrawl.
(I also made a few other tweaks for readability, too, such as greatly reducing ascenders and descenders, and making the centre parts of letters larger, rounder, and closer together.)
My writing has been the same ever since; it's very readable, neat (according to people who've commented), and quite distinctive.
What I don't understand is why 'joined-up' writing has such prestige and respectability. Why do we force children to use cursive script (even, in some schools, taking off exam marks for printing), as if it's somehow better? Is it just that it's more difficult? ("We had to do it...") Or because printing is associated with young children? (Self-fulfilling prophecy...)

--
Ceterum censeo subscriptionem esse delendam.
Re:Who still reads those? by Trailwalker · 2004-12-04 14:27 · Score: 1

British pronounciation: C L -A- R K as in Clark Kent.

Umm by swtaarrs · 2004-12-03 10:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

The most interesting part is that the papers are scanned versions of the originals and the search tool actually recognizes the handwritten text from these images.

How else would it search handwritten documents? Am I missing something here?

Re:Umm by KillerDeathRobot · 2004-12-03 11:08 · Score: 2, Funny

Yeah, it would have been much more "interesting" if the papers were, I don't know, read psychically by the computer or something.

--
Thinkin' Lincoln - a web comic of presidential proportions
Re:Umm by ZagNuts · 2004-12-03 11:24 · Score: 2, Funny

How else would it search handwritten documents? Am I missing something here?

You write down exactly what you want to find in exactly the same handwriting that the document is written in and then it blocks scans it for what you wrote... duh.
Re:Umm by lawpoop · 2004-12-03 11:36 · Score: 1

It might search for certain kinds of penstrokes or something like that. You could input a vector map and it would find similar vectors. Or even bitmaps I guess.

--
Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
-- Pablo Picasso
Re:Umm by mishmash · 2004-12-03 13:08 · Score: 2, Informative

Popular handwriting recognition software doesn't work like that - it gains much of it's information from the "pen" strokes used to create the letters. There's less information in a "finished" printed page than you'd get by tracking the movements a pen made to write it. For an example of this different approach see this paper describing handwriting recognition using pen mounted accelerometers.

--
UK Laptops
Re:Umm by Chess_the_cat · 2004-12-04 00:16 · Score: 1

You're obviously being sarcastic but are OCR and handwriting recognition new and exciting ideas to you?

--
Support the First Amendment. Read at -1

Doc by savagedome · 2004-12-03 10:27 · Score: 3, Funny

Huh? Well, lets see how well it keeps up with my doctor's handwriting...

--

Free XBox, PS2

Re:Doc by Eric+Giguere · 2004-12-03 16:14 · Score: 1

Yeah, they're going about this all wrong. They should be selling this stuff to pharmacies and hospitals -- that's where the technology will be useful!
Eric
Vioxx recall parody

This is so cool! by raehl · 2004-12-03 10:29 · Score: 2, Funny

Somebody invented a way for computers to recognize handwriting.

Like, so 10 years ago.

--
paintball

Re:This is so cool! by networkBoy · 2004-12-03 10:56 · Score: 1

No....
10 years ago someone invented a (hand) writing style that computers could recognize ala grafitti on the Palm.
-nB

--
whois gawk date unzip strip find touch finger mount join nice man top fsck grep eject more yes exit umount sleep dump

Re:The search tool? by Skippy_the_Evil_Twin · 2004-12-03 10:30 · Score: 2, Interesting

No OCR is performed on the documents. The search tool operates on the image.

--

Fair is where you take your cow to be judged.

Hard to read! by DeionXxX · 2004-12-03 10:31 · Score: 2, Interesting

Wow, looking at some of those examples, I was amazed by the fact that I couldn't READ most of the words. It looks completely foreing to me, might as well be trying to read Japanese.

Re:Hard to read! by kfg · 2004-12-03 10:38 · Score: 3, Funny

It looks completely foreing to me. . .

That's because it's written in a dead language.

English.

KFG
Re:Hard to read! by 3terrabyte · 2004-12-03 12:11 · Score: 1

Either could the software, apparently. At least the 'demo' on that site.
I typed in "Cumberland" and received more false positives than correct lines.
I agree it was hard to read on my eyes. Amazing what a person can get used to, or not get used to over time...

--
Why are there only 19 people folding@home for slashdot?

Accuracy? by b0lt · 2004-12-03 10:33 · Score: 2, Interesting

How good is the accuracy? The OCR technology of today might not be able to recognize the "flowery" text of most historical documents (look at "We the People" in the Declaration of Independence)

--
got sig?

Re:Accuracy? by LiquidCoooled · 2004-12-03 10:58 · Score: 1

I think consistency matters more than individual letter formation.

I could write entirely in scribbled hieroglyphs, but if it has a pattern, and the same squiggle means the same thing, then a computer could decipher it.

--
liqbase :: faster than paper
Re:Accuracy? by hords · 2004-12-03 11:17 · Score: 1

I agree, my grandmother was heavy into genealogy. She had hundreds of pages of neatly hand written, non-cursive documents. I tried to scan them with many different OCR programs, but none even came close to deciphering the text without skewing it badly. I tried ABBYY, Omnipage Pro 14, and a few others. Anyone have any successes with this kind of thing?
Re:Accuracy? by Jables · 2004-12-03 12:43 · Score: 1

Well, considering "We The People" is in the preamble to the Constitution, I imagine the OCR would have trouble finding it in the Declaration of Independence.

--
No FT, No Comment

Re:The search tool? by rjelks · 2004-12-03 10:33 · Score: 1

RTFA :) It actually looks pretty cool, the software is looking through the actual handwritten pages.

--

Tech News, Reviews and Tutorials

A waste? by Anonymous Coward · 2004-12-03 10:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

These documents are old and handwritten. Why waste the processing power decyphering results for each search when you can decypher the text once with a similar algorithm and search an index built that way? It's not like the information is ever going to change. (unless we do rewrite history)

Re:A waste? by 42forty-two42 · 2004-12-03 10:43 · Score: 2, Interesting

Um, that's almost certainly what they did. Running an OCR over 14,000 pages every time you do a search is nearly impossible. I only say nearly because, in theory, you can do it, but then searches days a few days to complete for zero net gain.
Re:A waste? by spud603 · 2004-12-03 10:50 · Score: 1

These documents are old and handwritten. Why waste the processing power decyphering results for each search when you can decypher the text once with a similar algorithm and search an index built that way? It's not like the information is ever going to change. (unless we do rewrite history) Context, context, context! If there's one thing I've learned in all of my schooling (and there is a lot), it is that how the information is portrayed is just as important as the information itself. Think about hearing vs. reading a speech, or reading a document printed on a dot-matrix instead of a laser printer. Yes it matters. Does it matter enough to use the many more resources necessary in this case? That's another issue...
Re:A waste? by GigsVT · 2004-12-03 11:05 · Score: 1

I don't get it.. he's advocating building an index. That would point to the image of the original document. Which is what they already did.

--
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Re:A waste? by denthijs · 2004-12-03 20:24 · Score: 1

In Europe, old documents get deciphered by Chinese workers (cheaply)

This is nothing new by 42forty-two42 · 2004-12-03 10:34 · Score: 2, Informative

Google already did it! Well, it's not handwritten, but that's just a logical progression.

Re:This is nothing new by js7a · 2004-12-03 10:49 · Score: 2, Funny

Vannivar Bush described it before anyone could do it. Actualy maybe Babbage and Lovelace, Asimov, and/or probably someone like Jay Williams did a better job.
Re:This is nothing new by cuteseal · 2004-12-03 11:25 · Score: 1

Now... if they only had a search engine for My socks....

--
The friendliest digital photography forums on the net!

In related news... by Sheepdot · 2004-12-03 10:35 · Score: 1

such as the 140,000 [handwritten] pages that make up George Washington's personal papers in the Library of Congress.

In related news, the family of Tobias Lear, George Washington's personal secretary, who took his own life (arguably due to the horrible pain in his wrists), has filed suit.

Handwriting sucks by October_30th · 2004-12-03 10:36 · Score: 4, Interesting

You were modded as funny, but I fully agree with you.

I hate reading/producing anything longer than a post-it note that's in handwriting.

--
The owls are not what they seem

Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-03 11:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

You're apparently not into the pure sciences like math or physics.

I'd hate to be able to type in my equations, there's a feel to working things out on paper and pen. Besides, the tactile sensation of writing on paper is simply wonderful. No amount of typing can replace that.

Nothing beats a good old fountain pen and writing on good paper =)
Re:Handwriting sucks by NSash · 2004-12-03 12:31 · Score: 1

I'm a student, and I'd LOVE to be able to quickly type equations. For note-taking alone, it would be a huge boon.
Re:Handwriting sucks by dvdeug · 2004-12-03 12:36 · Score: 1

I'd hate to be able to type in my equations

You can; it's called TeX. I hate trying to decipher my handwritten equations, worse yet, someone else's. Capital S versus s, u versus v, x versus y, 2 versus Z, 5 versus S, l versus 1, it's all a mess.

the tactile sensation of writing on paper is simply wonderful. No amount of typing can replace that.

The tactile sensation of pushing reeds into clay is simply wonderful. No amount of writing can replace cuniform.

Times change, and the ineffable qualities get ignored for the ineffable qualities of the next generation.
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-03 14:40 · Score: 1

I hate trying to decipher my handwritten equations, worse yet, someone else's.

Most physicists or mathematicians I know have pretty standard and decent handwriting, atleast when it comes to writing their equations. It's more a question of practice.

Capital S versus s, u versus v, x versus y, 2 versus Z, 5 versus S, l versus 1, it's all a mess.

Maybe if people had taken their handwriting classes in 2nd and 3rd grades seriously, they would not be making mistakes of trying to confuse writing 5 and S.

Times change, and the ineffable qualities get ignored for the ineffable qualities of the next generation.

The alternative is not half as good, and is not half as capable. Ironically, tablet PCs try to emulate the good old handwriting, and do so poorly. As for the "next generation", man has been writing in some form or the other for thousands of years.

A large percentage of the people across the world (especially in places like China and India) will continue to use good old pen and paper. It's not going to go out of style for a long, long time.
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-03 16:03 · Score: 2, Insightful

TeX or LaTeX are neat for writing papers, but not for doing your labnotes or solving a research problem. Writing also helps you think while you are at it, because of the time it takes to get your idea on paper. Not to mention the ease in switching modes - I can write, draw and do everything without bothering to or having to switch between programs. Thought to action, the easiest possible way.
Re:Handwriting sucks by dvdeug · 2004-12-03 19:08 · Score: 1

The alternative is not half as good, and is not half as capable.

Then argue that, not the "tactile sensation of writing on paper". No technology feels like the last, and almost every technology has people who appreciate its particular sensations. That doesn't stop them for getting replaced; the only thing that does that is real arguments.

Maybe if people had taken their handwriting classes in 2nd and 3rd grades seriously, they would not be making mistakes of trying to confuse writing 5 and S.

Always blame the user for design flaws in the system. In any case, the fact still stands that people can read printed material easier than handwritten material, a fact that is merely aggravated, not caused, by bad handwriting.

Bad handwriting has killed people through misread prescriptions. There have been lawsuits centering around the question whether a handwritten will said "seventy" or "twenty". As always, it's easier to fix the system than the users.

As for the "next generation", man has been writing in some form or the other for thousands of years.

They were pressing cuniform symbols into clay for thousands of years, too. People typing instead of handwriting dates back to the first novels Twain pounded out on a typewriter, and is going to take many more decades to completely marginalize handwriting.
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-03 19:32 · Score: 1

I wasn't arguing for handwriting, I was putting across my opinion. Didn't realize one had to justify one's opinions. I was giving my reasons for preferring pen and paper, and the tactile sensation is one of the most important factors. I like the feel of writing, and it aids my problem solving capabilities.

And I wasn't blaming the user, but the user has as much responsibility as the language. The alternative is to change the language, which is fairly hard. Besides, there are obvious advantages to writing that won't disappear anytime soon.

and is going to take many more decades to completely marginalize handwriting.

Even if you have a Tablet PC, you're still doing the same thing. From post-it notes to labnotes to scribbling something to writing on white boards and ad infinitum - handwritten media go on and on.

The point is, I don't see the need to. You may have a lot of other alternatives, but there is no medium that is as effective and as flexible as handwritten medium for a lot many things.
Re:Handwriting sucks by denthijs · 2004-12-03 20:00 · Score: 1

Capital S versus s, u versus v, x versus y, 2 versus Z, 5 versus S, l versus 1, it's all a mess.
Th3re 1S 4 Diff3r3nce?
Re:Handwriting sucks by dvdeug · 2004-12-03 20:19 · Score: 1

The alternative is to change the language, which is fairly hard.

You have to change the orthography, which several Turkish languages have done three times in the last hundred years.

Even if you have a Tablet PC, you're still doing the same thing.

If the Tablet PC converts what you write to character data (as opposed to images), then there is crucial differences. You can output in an easy to read form that's easy to check for errors and easy for other people to decipher. Your input method is less important than how the data is stored and displayed.
Re:Handwriting sucks by novakyu · 2004-12-04 07:25 · Score: 1

I'm a student, and I'd LOVE to be able to quickly type equations. For note-taking alone, it would be a huge boon.
Ah, now, but would you want to be deriving the equations on computer?
I couldn't ever derive anything on computer. When I have to come up with an equation for my lab report, I first write it on a piece of paper, even if I have to retype it (using equation editor) on computer.
One feature that equation-typing seems to lack (disclaimer: I haven't used TeX) is cancellation notation... Sure, I can just delete the corresponding quantities, but, what if I made a mistake and want to look through the steps again? I haven't seen a nontrivial way of denoting that...
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-04 10:05 · Score: 1

You have to change the orthography, which several Turkish languages have done three times in the last hundred years.

True, but English has been adopted far more widely and has a lot more speakers across the world than Turkish. It would be next to impossible to undertake a mammoth task such as that.

If the Tablet PC converts what you write to character data (as opposed to images), then there is crucial differences. You can output in an easy to read form that's easy to check for errors and easy for other people to decipher. Your input method is less important than how the data is stored and displayed.

Agreed, but the tablet PC is still heavy, cumbersome and not as flexible as a piece of paper. Also - there are no equivalents of such simple things as post-it notes or whiteboards.
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-04 10:08 · Score: 1

I think your opinion sucks. There. I'm just putting across _my_ opinion. I'm not going to give you any reason, though.

Good for you.
Re:Handwriting sucks by tepples · 2004-12-05 08:09 · Score: 1

True, but English has been adopted far more widely and has a lot more speakers across the world than Turkish. It would be next to impossible to undertake a mammoth task such as that.

Likewise, Windows has been adopted far more widely and has a lot more desktop users across the world than Linux. It would be next to impossible to undertake a mammoth task such as that.
Re:Handwriting sucks by metlin · 2004-12-05 08:19 · Score: 1

That's one of the worst analogies I've ever heard.

Comparing a language to an operating system is quite ridiculous. You write, read and communicate in English practically every waking minute of your life, starting since childhood. People *think* in English.

An operating system is hardly as ubiquitous.

Language skills are learnt and neural pathways formed when you are quite young, it would take a lot to change that in people.

Re:The search tool? by ShadeARG · 2004-12-03 10:36 · Score: 1

From TFA:

Manmatha says, "Right now, searching a scanned handwritten document is very hard to do. Scanned historical documents are basically images, or pictures, and currently can only be searched if someone manually transcribes the documents or creates and index of their contents. This is time consuming and expensive to do. Given the cost, most handwritten documents are never transcribed or indexed," Manmatha says. "But there is an enormous amount of handwritten, historical material.

I forgot, this is Slashdot after all.

!WOW by Anonymous Coward · 2004-12-03 10:37 · Score: 1, Interesting

... eh eh !gniddik tsuJ. !skoobeton inciV ad eht no esool ti teL.

Useful for more than just historians by Thunderstruck · 2004-12-03 10:39 · Score: 4, Interesting

I took a lot of notes in College. I took a lot more notes in graduate school. I've even taken notes on books I've read for the fun of it. If I could run all of these through my scanner & search them from an application on my desktop, I could be really obnoxious in an argument.

--
Trying to use sarcasm in text-based forums does not work.

Re:Useful for more than just historians by terraformer · 2004-12-03 11:06 · Score: 1

If I could run all of [my notes] through my scanner & search them from an application on my desktop, I could be really obnoxious in an argument.

This is slashdot. You would definitely be obnoxious if you argued a point with actual facts behind you...

--
Who are you? The new #2 Who is #1? You are #617565. I am not a number, I am a free man! Muhahaha.
Re:Useful for more than just historians by Dubber · 2004-12-03 11:13 · Score: 1

If I could run all of these through my scanner & search them from an application on my desktop, I could be really obnoxious in an argument.

Hell, *I* don't need all that much processing power to be obnoxious in an argument. Oh, wait...

--
Your complaints about being offended offend me.

Yes, but what they don't tell you... by aristus · 2004-12-03 10:45 · Score: 3, Funny

You have to be able to handle a quill pen to use it.

--
Sometimes seventeen/Syllables aren't enough to/Express a complete

Interesting, but limited by InternationalCow · 2004-12-03 10:45 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's an interesting approach that should be extended to other languages than English. Most of the world's history is not about the US and it has certainly not been written down in English. What I would really like to have is a similar tool that can search, say, Greek, or Latin, (or whatever) handwritten text. Imagine being able to query Ovid for an item of interest without having to consult everything he's written. I can imagine that this might encourage people to study the classics (a pet peeve of mine is that many people lack historical sense...) and it would certainly facilitate research in this area.
If you can put the queries in English, with the search engine taking care of translation, it would be even better. Then, extended historical study comes within everyone's reach and the classical studies (or humaniora) might be transformed.

--
----- One learns to itch where one can scratch.

Re:Interesting, but limited by Hemisemidemi · 2004-12-04 02:50 · Score: 1

Does anyone actually know what percent of the classics that we have available is from the "pen" of the author? From what I remember of the Western Civ. courses that I took back in the last century,(!)most of the Greeks were filtered through the Arabic world.
Re:Interesting, but limited by novakyu · 2004-12-04 09:13 · Score: 1

Apparently, you've never seen an actual papyrus (where we get most of our classical literature) before.
It's difficult enough for a trained professional (papyrologist) to decypher that, let alone for a machine. So, most of the stuffs we read has to be transcribed by such a professional, and then it's a trivial effort to digitize it properly (i.e. no OCR stuff).
The problem most people have with classical studies is that they don't realize this: "All translations are bad." If you really want to study something in Greek or Latin seriously, you have to learn the language--there is so much lost in translation (regardless of the ability of the translator), and the only way to realize how much is really lost is by your being able to read the "original" (well, as original as possible anyway...since the claim I hear is that we never have the original manuscript) text yourself.
Let's not trade quality for accessibility.
PS. Oh, even word-to-word translation is not proper. For one, "xenos" (in standard Latin transliteration) has no single-word translation in English that has all of its denotations and connotations, not to mention that some words (er... mostly particles) are simply "untranslatable" (i.e. those are "sign posts" that denote certain "senses..." Try explaining that to a Classical Civ major who doesn't understand a thing in Greek).

Good Work! by CaptainCarrot · 2004-12-03 10:45 · Score: 4, Funny

How pleafant that they've done what waf neceffary to make this happen. How did they train the foftware to recognize the quirky 18th Century handwriting?

--
And the brethren went away edified.

Re:Good Work! by That's+Unpossible! · 2004-12-03 11:20 · Score: 4, Funny

How pleafant that they've done what waf neceffary to make this happen.

Personally, I think it fucks.

--
Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
Re:Good Work! by Speare · 2004-12-03 16:07 · Score: 1

they've done what waf neceffary
I know you're just making a joke on the penmanship style used with a quill, but traditionally, a double-S would be more like fs, as in necefsary. Only the first S of a pair is elongated.

--
[ .sig file not found ]

Re:The search tool? by TykeClone · 2004-12-03 10:50 · Score: 2, Funny

We could use it as a jobs program for monks. Their predecessors wrote the manuscripts, and now they could transcribe them into digital form...

--
A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.

Doesn't work by badmammajamma · 2004-12-03 10:51 · Score: 1

Their handwriting recognition system doesn't work for shit. It couldn't even correctly retrieve results from words that I know are in its scanned letters. The word "governor" appears as a result from one of their suggested queries (*cough* hard coded results *cough*), but if you do a separate search for governor it returns stuff that doesn't even contain the word.

--
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken

Re:Doesn't work by srenker · 2004-12-03 12:06 · Score: 1

"January" returned 5 different words (or parts of words) that sort-of looked like January, but were not. They are very brave to try Washington's handwriting first. I am a sentient human being and I have trouble deciphering his handwriting, or any other from that era.

--
My new /. login is fabu10u$.

It's not OCR by Anonymous+Cowdog · 2004-12-03 10:55 · Score: 4, Funny

It's "Pixelative Text Cognizance."

It's different. With OCR these rays of light scan the original, translate each scanpoint to discrete RGB values, and do pattern recognition.

With this system, they just read the discrete RGB values directly from pixels of documents scanned in with rays of light, then they do recognition of patterns. See, it's totally different.

Re:It's not OCR by GigsVT · 2004-12-03 11:07 · Score: 2, Funny

I'm not sure what's more funny, your post, or that it was modded "informative". :)

--
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
Re:It's not OCR by Anonymous+Cowdog · 2004-12-03 11:11 · Score: 1

Heh, yeah, I was just noticing that. Wow! Tears in my eyes!
Re:It's not OCR by imsabbel · 2004-12-03 11:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Er.... Do i seriously miss something here or was only some mod fooled by a troll?

Lets examine your definitions:
Ocr: document->RGB(via light)->pixels->patern recognition
PTC: Document->Pixels(via light)->RGB->patern recognition.
Of course you forget that there are no rgb values here, because its black/white, so there is only a brightness value per pixel left. So what is the difference?

Sounds really AWFULLY different...

Maybe its just your description that is lacking...

--
HI O WISE PRINCE. WHT TOOK U SO DAM LONG?

They are doing OCR by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-12-03 10:56 · Score: 1

They aren't doing OCR

Yes, they are. They are not using an off-the-shelf OCR package. The OCR functionality is embedded into their software, it is highly specialized, but it is OCR. For those who are fixated on the letter 'C', recognizing multiple characters as a single unit is nothing new.

They should do an image search instead by alexislashdot · 2004-12-03 11:01 · Score: 1

Convert the search text into an image to look as written by hand.

Then do an image search on the documents. You will need a powerful image recognition software.

This would be news.

*** Find that COM error at http://www.comerrors.com **

Re:The search tool? by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-12-03 11:02 · Score: 1

No OCR is performed on the documents. The search tool operates on the image

The search tool is doing the OCR then. OCR is simply taking an image and analyzing it to recognize text.

National Treasure by Torgo's+Pizza · 2004-12-03 11:04 · Score: 2, Funny

If only Nicholas Cage had this tool at his disposal, it would have made things much, much easier.

Re:National Treasure by tonsofpcs · 2004-12-03 11:19 · Score: 1

How? The map was on the back side, these things only scan the front.......

--
Video Production Support

OCR by dustinbarbour · 2004-12-03 11:10 · Score: 1

Holy shnikes! Optical Character Recognition! Bah.. I'm part of a research team at the Center for Cybermedia Research who are working on new algorithms for OCR with $4 million from Homeland Security. Its to be used on a gi-normous database containing scanned images of documents relating to Yucca Mountain.

On top of that, OCR has been around for years. Yes, it isn't the best, but its functional. Doesn't census bureau use OCR for its census forms?

So, yeah.. where is the news in the article?

--
What is your penile percentile?

Re:Standards at risk by tonsofpcs · 2004-12-03 11:10 · Score: 1

it has been universally agreed that the most fundamental unit of information capacity in computer science, the "Library of Congress"
Really? Whatever happened to the bit???????

--
Video Production Support

More like twenty years ago ;-) by AHumbleOpinion · 2004-12-03 11:10 · Score: 3, Interesting

Somebody invented a way for computers to recognize handwriting. Like, so 10 years ago.

I worked on an OCR system about 20 years ago. No pre-defined bitmaps of text, you trained the system on the font to be recognized. After a few hours you could turn it loose and it did fairly well. While goofing off we tried handwritten text. With good penmanship it worked to a degree.

Re:The search tool? by tonsofpcs · 2004-12-03 11:12 · Score: 1

No, OCR stands for Optical Character Recognition. This is Digital Character Recognition on an Optically Acquired Digital Image. Don't you see the difference?

--
Video Production Support

Must be expensive search engine by CmdrPuto · 2004-12-03 11:14 · Score: 1

For sure it will cost 5 times and more complicated algorihtm if it were use to search Doctor's handwriting.

Re:Must be expensive search engine by ddimas · 2004-12-03 11:46 · Score: 1

Dr Who?

better Jay Williams link by js7a · 2004-12-03 11:22 · Score: 1

Danny Dunn and the Homework Machine.

Stupid by bryan986 · 2004-12-03 11:26 · Score: 1

This is really, really, really, really stupid, it would be faster just to hand type the documents into the database, then search it, you could link to pictures of the documents if you really needed it

--
There is no sig

Re:Stupid by dustinbarbour · 2004-12-03 12:22 · Score: 1

Faster to handtype?! Do you have any idea whatsoever the number of handwriten documents the Library of Congress contains? I can' giveyou a number, but rest assured that it is more than any army of typists would care to copy. But computers don't care about work volume and they are a hell of a lot quicker than any human typist could ever hope to be.

--
What is your penile percentile?
Re:Stupid by bryan986 · 2004-12-03 12:28 · Score: 1

It would still be faster to type them, it has taken programmers years and years to develop this software, in which time they could have easily typed up the documents, software for regcognizing handwriting is just a work around from the real problem, which is that they are not computer text!

--
There is no sig

OneNote does this already by MOGua · 2004-12-03 11:34 · Score: 1

I've been using this feature in OneNote for a long time now. It searches through my handwriting with amazing accuracy

Re:The search tool? by ddimas · 2004-12-03 11:48 · Score: 1

We could use it as a jobs program for monks. Their predecessors wrote the manuscripts, and now they could transcribe them into digital form...

They already have a full time job. Praying.

spoofing by sewagemaster · 2004-12-03 12:13 · Score: 2, Funny

great. now people are just going to spoof documents and put pr0n or enlargement spams in the pdfs when i search for anything academic related. i'm glad i dont have that problem yet finding pdf papers via google yet.

--
my blog

I can't even read my own printing sometimes by NotQuiteReal · 2004-12-03 13:53 · Score: 1

Some of us who have been typing/keyboarding since the time I we were wee lads, can't even remember how to write in cursive.

I think, maybe 3rd or 4th grade is the last time you have to use cursive. I do, however highly recommend giving your kids touch-typing classes, so that they too, can keyboard with fluidity (and rapidly lose their writing skills too).

For me, it is a speed issue - I can type MUCH faster than writing, when I have a lot to do, typing on a computer is the way to go (plus, I can't live without speelcheking).

That said, I do agree with others that sometimes, pen and paper is the right way to go - for me that is pen and composition books that I scribble in on a daily basis to keep track of what I was doing, when. (I am a software consultant) - There is nothing faster than flipping thru a comp book with dates on every page to see what I was doing, say August 10 (testing and OSD application). However, the penmanship on those notes is really bad - and anything I learn and jot down I do type into at least a plain text document so that I can search for it later (and have it be legible when I find it)!

Heh, what about shorthand? My Mother used to write in shorthand whenever she wanted to write notes to herself that noone else in the family could read.

Finally - how many of you have even tried to type, on a manual typewriter (if you can find one) lately? I learned on one, and was a speed demon, back in the day. Now, after years of these soft-touch keyboards, I tried punching a few keys on a manual and had a hard time making marks on the paper. Sheesh, you really need to whack those things. Good Riddance!

--
This issue is a bit more complicated than you think.

Re:The search tool? by tonsofpcs · 2004-12-03 14:15 · Score: 1

That's my point.

--
Video Production Support

Fire, and Acid-Based Paper by mosel-saar-ruwer · 2004-12-03 14:49 · Score: 2, Insightful

The only real threat is fire, and it is no more dangerous than it is to CDs or hard drives.

Go back and look at some old notebooks - if they used acid-based paper, then they'll be getting rather fragile.

One important thing to understand about this... by smug_lisp_weenie · 2004-12-03 15:23 · Score: 3, Interesting

Although it is hard to OCR text and very hard to OCR cursive text written in historical documents, performing searches on those documents does not require a complete comprehension of the textand is therefore much easier to do.

For instance, the software may be unable to distinguish the word bug from dog in one person's handwriting, but can still mark it with probabilities of the word's possible meanings.

If a person later searches for the word bug or dog at a future date along with other terms, a mathematical calculation can be done for the likelyhood of the match and the searcher can make his/her own judgement to the meaning of the text.

---
Conrad Barski

Re:One important thing to understand about this... by Media_Scumbag · 2004-12-03 20:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

Excellent point!

In the legal field, finding context in a search is typically as (or more) important as finding a single word... Products like Summation (Summation.com) and Adobe's industrial strength Acrobat Capture (? - may have a new name... Server-based - uses "hot folders" that are monitored, batches, etc.) have OCR capabilities that are pretty flexible, reading from text, pdf, MS Word, JPEG, BMP, GIF, or TIFF... Of course, these can be expensive...

But, being able to get quickly to a target word is very useful indeed when the verbatim answer requires human eyes to confirm or contextualize, or ,if you just next a good start point...

I used Acrobat Capture and a digital camera (I was not permitted to flatbed or sheetfeed scan - the items were deemed too "fragile") to make archive materals text-searchable for a law firm's special project, to very good result.

Granted, these materals were written in decent fonts, not handwritten, but with many graphic illustrations interspersed in them, which can trip up some OCR solutions. Capture could have read the documents' Japanese too, if I'd bought the correct Adobe plugin, and the project had required it.

Massaged correctly, OCR's come a long way, baby...

Equations by mattleung · 2004-12-03 16:41 · Score: 1

can it make sense of square roots? Matthew Leung

Its Innovative by Neelay+Thaker · 2004-12-03 17:05 · Score: 1

Though it may not seem important to most of us who are used to Microsoft Word, the search engine for handwritten documents is important for the following two reasons- 1] It is an innovation in computer science and this technology may have applications elsewhere. 2] There are old documents that are handwritten and it is not practical to create their typed versions. This is an inexpensive method of creatig easy access to those documents on the Internet.

Re:The search tool? by denthijs · 2004-12-03 20:18 · Score: 1

The difference might become more obvious when it is apllied to the field of digital authentication common in porn and free email providers.
You know, the little images of a couple of chars you have to type over to 'prove' you're human
I wonder what will be the next step in anti-bot techniques now that this last hurdle seems to be taken aswell....

FYI by kertong · 2004-12-03 21:21 · Score: 1

According to this search, the famous Patrick Henry was noted to have actually said "Give me Liberty, or eat up martha!"

Writing good for lab books? by hankwang · 2004-12-04 02:41 · Score: 1

There's also water. If I spill a Coke on my keyboard, all my data's safe; if I spill one on my notebook, it's all gone.

Of course, you use a ballpoint pen for lab notebooks, not fountain pens or other pens based on water-soluble inks. Of course, this won't help you if you spill vodka. :-)

Anyway, in lab situations you might not have a place nearby to put a laptop and you might be running between different laboratories so a laptop is often not very convenient. I was taught that you should write observations directly in a notebook instead of waiting and writing them down later. Moreover, you are not supposed to change the notes once they are written down, a temptation that might be hard to resist if the notes are in a computer file.

--
Avantslash: low-bandwidth mobile slashdot.

Re:Cursive wastes time by novakyu · 2004-12-04 07:54 · Score: 1

Reading cursive takes much longer, not only taking longer but it turns reading into a guessing game. Is that an a or an e?

I for one enjoy the "guessing game." I find it rewarding to be able to read something without having to recognize everything letter-by-letter (the context should tell you what letter it had to be, unless it's a proper name).

Apparently, you haven't done one of those exercises they give in, er, high school publication classes.... Well, it has to do with how one shouldn't write everything in capitals because most people do not read (i.e. understand) a writing/sentence by recognizing everything letter-by-letter. People learn to recognize blocks of letter, based on relative size/positions (and using that it is possible to guess what the sentence/word was even if someone were to color all letter-blocks black... of course, this doesn't work with Courier).

BTW, I guess this does lead to some sloppiness--I use cursive when I'm not sure how to spell a word exactly, because I know that most people able to read cursive do not rely on getting the exact spelling. ;)

OT: google wants OCR engr. in Mt.View, Calif. by e7 · 2004-12-04 11:33 · Score: 1

"Do you think that OCR is actually the wrong way to think about this problem? After all, we don't really care about characters, but rather about what words and ideas have been written. Do you have a strong background in pattern recognition, machine learning, image processing and computer graphics? Google currently "reads" almost every web page in the world. Come help us read all the printed material as well!"

Requires MS/PhD in CS/EE. Position available only in Mountain View.
http://www.google.com/jobs/eng/sw.html#ocre

(Note: I don't work for Google -- just thought someone on this thread would like :)

--
Corollary to Moore's Law: The IQ of new computer owners is declining.

handwriting and such by KateGladstone · 2004-12-05 04:53 · Score: 1

For those with strong views (one way or another) about handwriting, please let me know what you think about the information on this web-page:

the URL by KateGladstone · 2004-12-05 04:57 · Score: 1

Somehow, the URL I mentioned didn't come through. So, again ... http://www.global2000.net/handwritingrepair

An OS is a language by tepples · 2004-12-05 08:27 · Score: 1

Comparing a language to an operating system is quite ridiculous.

The user interface of an operating system is the language through which users interact with a computer. Its ABI is the language through which users teach a computer to do tasks. Its driver model is the language through which users teach a computer to interact with their devices.

To some experienced Windows users, learning to maintain a GNU/Linux system is like learning another language.

Re:An OS is a language by metlin · 2004-12-05 09:03 · Score: 1

The last time I checked, people didn't think in Windows API. And the last time I checked, people didn't write their grocery lists in Visual C++. Nor did kids play around in blocks Linux API when they were 3 years old - they were playing around with blocks of alphabets.

In fact, the last time I checked, people had no clue about either of those until they were well versed in a spoken and written language called English.

No matter what foreign languages you learn, you seldom change your basic language skills of your primary spoken & written language(s). They stay with you for life.

Programming language skills are higher order functions, they are learnt a lot more easily and can be forgotten just as easily. It's ridiculous to compare the two, and even pretend that they are the same.
Re:An OS is a language by tepples · 2004-12-05 09:14 · Score: 1

The last time I checked, people didn't think in Windows API.

I didn't say "Windows API". I said "Windows ABI", application binary interface, meaning "if you put this disc in this computer, this app will appear on this display." Even four-year-olds who haven't learned to read and write can still put a disc in a Windows machine and predictably see SpongeBob EncephaloPants. This ABI changes from OS to OS; if you put a Windows CD in a Linux box, you probably won't get the same result without translation software installed on the machine.

People become confused and lock up because the start button changes from gray in Windows 98 to green by default in Windows XP, or because the start menu is shaped differently. How can one explain this?

Moderators be patient, as we're getting to the underlying problem behind both switching orthographies and switching operating systems by operating in a space potentially more familiar to Slashdot readers.

Slashdot Mirror

Search Engines for Handwritten Documents

125 of 172 comments (clear)