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Knoppix To Split Into 'Light,' 'Maximum' Versions
prostoalex writes "Everyone's favorite Knoppix project will be split into light and maximum editions, which should end the argument on whether the Live CD operating system should focus on small footprint, or greater support for external applications." From the linked ZDNet article:
"'We will split the mainstream edition of Knoppix into two versions: a 'maximum' DVD edition with a complete Debian installation, and a 'light' edition on CD that contains the most popular desktop and server software only, for older computers or smaller systems that don't have a bootable DVD drive yet,' said Knopper."
I'm sorry... who is Jeremy Zawodny and why should I care if Knoppix is his favorite live cd? As far as I can tell, he's a MySQL bigshot, and that's not really saying so much, all things considered.
More importantly, perhaps, is why does the submitter seem to think he's "everybody"?
More to the specific point of the article, I still fail to see the allure of Live CDs. Does Knoppix actually boot without touching the hdds on the system, or does it do some footprinting on the disks? If it does use disk space - for virtual memory, for example, it's rather useless for anything other than a demo of Linux. While that's great if you're, say, demo'ing Linux for someone who's interested in moving to it, I don't understand what other practical purpose it serves that so much time should be devoted to it?
I can't be the only Slashdotter with this question. Perhaps someone could enlighten me?
Alito: A vote for Alito is a punch in the eye to put that bitch back in her place!
Who wants first post, when you can have first kumquat?
this is a great idea i use Knoppix a lot and frequently on old computers but having some additional features on a dvd would be great for higher end systems and simplify carrying a bunch of cds or downloading some utilities
I'm curious, will Fluxbox be on this "light" disk? I ask because the summary says that the most 'popular desktop'. That would be KDE, but light it is not!
What if the entire Universe were a chrooted environment with everything symlinked from the host?
No hard drive is required to run the Knoppix live cd.
Is it digitally signed?
I know that Klaus Knopper doesn't see Knoppix as a Debian installer, but I think that he should take a second look at this, especially considering the idea of a "lite" and a "full" version of the Knoppix CD.
The "lite" version of the CD should allow for a simplified HD install, complete with Knoppix' superior hardware detection facility. Neither the official Debian Sarge installer nor the Ubuntu installer is as good as Knoppix for "figuring out" the hardware it's looking at. I don't know about Mepis because I've never used it.
Maybe if Herr Knopper won't do it, someone should fork Knoppix and do it for him.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
Blackbox, twm, even enlightenment is pretty small. I bet all of these put together would fit just fine, and each merits being included for differing reasons.
The difference between spam and poop is that you don't have to dig through septic tanks looking for real food. -- Me
Operating systems expand to fill the available boot media.
first all your whiney "curse" mysticism is gone and now your stupid football team loses to the PATHETIC DOLPHINS
LOLOLOL
which should end the argument on whether the Live CD operating system should focus on small footprint, or greater support for external applications.
Not likely. It'll just mean that each camp will have a disc that suits them.
Linux doesn't take much space.
The lite edition still has 600MB to work with, and if they don't pack it full, it's not as useful as if they did. KDE would certainly be good to have, and they'll still have plenty of space to install it when they're done.
When I installed everything I might think about using (five window managers, gnome and kde versions of almost everything, etc) on my box compiled with -Os, I got about 3.7GB of programs. I can't wait to see the DVD-DL version of Knoppix. That should be able to contain almost every OSS app on Freshmeat.
Mod me down and I will become more powerful than you can possibly imagine!
Microsoft is bitching about how people can't trust code that doesn't belong to them, Homeland security says we can't trust what should be a simple piece of software *by* them...
meanwhile, Knoppix is a wonderful, portable, safe, stable distribution that can go anywhere you do, and is so easy to use that my 87 year old grandmother who is so frial she can't leave her bed (we've had a hospital bed put in her room for her) can literally boot an old laptop (with DOS 6.2 installed) and use it to email and *even instant message* her grandson (me), who is 300km away.
And its free.
If there were *ever* a prime demonstration of what can be accomplished by OSS in action, surely Knoppix is that demonstration.
P.S. I told my grandmother about the microsoft-flaming-firefox thing... she said (and I quote, verbatim)"Someone should tell those... those... those Microstuff people (shes a little poor of hearing) to smarten up or be quiet."
Grandma, How I Love You.
Wow, 4.7GB of Knoppix, seems like a little too much if you ask me.
I can't wait to see the DVD-DL version of Knoppix.
I hope they continue to make a DVD-5 version even if they do make a DVD-9 version, as not all DVD+/-R drives that can record a DVD-5 can record a DVD-9.
- run Linux with/without a hard disk /etc/password or /etc/shadow
- evaluate latest software
- password recovery - allows you to reset
- file system fsck
- install to hard disk: you get Debian without the 'orrible Debian installer
some of us want Medium!
Good grief, can't we have something in-between too-little and too-much?
Dude, I'm sure Klaus is shaking in his boots at the veiled threat of "someone" forking Knoppix... there are only several dozen Knoppix-based projects at the moment. In any case, installing Knoppix to HD is insanely simple already:
o pp ix+to+hard+drive&btnG=Google+Search
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=install+kn
If you need to roll back the latest distro because of some bug, you can just pop the old CD back in the drive.
I use Knoppix on several of my main database servers.
A 'Behemoth' DVD I can keep in my kit, hopefully along with me excepting those "Oh Fuck" moments.
That is the most beautiful thing I have ever seen here, oh anonymous one.
it made me proud to be an American! Won't someone please think of the grandmothers??
Now how am I going to show off linux to someone who doesn't have a bootable DVD?
Don't drop the soap, Tommy!
I've played with Knoppix before, and think it's just amazing.
Just over a year ago, I inhereted an old K6-2 450Mhz box with a dead hard drive. As I had an old monitor kicking around, and as I typically hate having guests use any of my workstations, I decided to remove the hard drive and set the system up as a dedicated Knoppix box.
I dutifully downloaded the ISO and burned a CD, only to find that the machine in question had an old CD-ROM drive incapable of reading 700MB discs. So I was SOL (and eventually found Gnoppix, which did fit onto a 650MB disc this machine could boot).
I can't imagine I've been the only person to run into this issue with Knoppix, so I wonder if this new "lite" version will be designed to work on 650MB discs (although admittedly I had a bit of a rough time even finding such discs to burn that Gnoppix CD oh so long ago).
(And yes, I suppose I could spend a bit of money and buy a new CD-ROM drive for the machine, but it was a freebie, and is supposed to be a guest machine, so it isn't as if I'm personally hurting by not putting any money into it ;) ).
Yaz.
I believe that to use softwares from DVD would be much slower than from CD in many machines.
It would be useful not to compress the software in the DVD, but still I believe that in almost all the new computers, the time used by the CPU to uncompress, is smaller than the time used by the CD.
Don't worry about distribution - they will just send it to everybody as an email attachment.
my cd-rw are only 650 variety.
The knoppix iso needs 680. The hell if I know how to do an FTP install . Anyone do those ?
Did you hear about Pedro Martinez? His little guy is pissed off and is not coming with him to New York. WTF is up with that guy? Is he a midget or does he have some kind of disease? He gives me the creeps. LOL at Tom Brady putting it up for grabs on his last drive (Stuart Scott: "What had happened was..."). Though he looks suspiciously like Matt Damon's and Ben Affleck's love-child. Damn New England metrosexual faggots.
Personally, I would love to see the Ravens go deep. But I know they will have to face some tough teams. Their defense is pretty good (gotta love Ray Lewis), but if anything happens to Jamal Lewis their offense is going to be dead in the watter; they have a tough enough time putting points on the board as it is.
My guilty pleasure is Jacked Up. Every Monday I look forward to 8:55 so much. It's dumb, but fun. I want to get jacked up my Ray Lewis. Ed Reed was on tonight; he jacked the shit out of somebody ("Hater in the house!"). It was great. I watch too much ESPN.
http://linux.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=132290&c id=11051040
I'm awfully hungry
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I like noodles
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I work in a factory
ching ching chaing cheingI'm worried about taiwan
chang ching chang chong
I hope my wife will bear me a son this time
+ + + +
The tire iron revolution is at hand. Nobody can save you now.
+ + + +
By using an inferior operating system, you make yourselves irrelevant.
do we really need a 27gb live cd??
Will the download have a Verisign sig? If not, how can we trust it?
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
Well, now that it forked, I guess this'll be the last time you can say this with any certainty. ;)
With a "light" version and "maximum" version, the dev team might take the approach that "light" means "demo." In other words, they might leave some key features out of the "light" version that really should be in it. If that happens, people will complain and get what they want and the features they need. Or they will customize it and release it. I think that this could be a move that will start some off-shoots of Knoppix. It should be very good for Knoppix users.
Silence is golden... and duct tape is silver.
Isn't the contemporary adjective for this sort of usage these days "lite"?
Light, with that spelling, really speaks to me to being primarily either a noun or a verb, and only an adjective when used to describe something's actual, as opposed to metaphorical, weight.
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
I work with a charity that gives donated computers to schoolchildren.
Unless there's a canned one out there, it looks like I'm going to have to roll my own "ultralight" CD to give away to people still running mid-90s hardware: 16-64MB RAM, 500MB-1GB HD, 2-4x CD if you are lucky, 14.4-33.6 modem if you are lucky, ISA or early-PCI sound card and video
Example software:
Lightweight web browser w/ Java - FF if it's not too heavy
Lightweight word processor that opens/saves MS-Word 95 files
Lightweight spreadsheet that opens/saves MS-Excel 95 files
Lightweight "presentation" program that opens/saves MS-Powerpoint 95 format
ssh, ftp, etc.
lightweight games
easy-to-use modem-dialer
cd-audio player/mixer
MS-Windows remote terminal services client
and of course support for all kinds of older hardware one might find on computers donated to charity.
Boot CD with a single floppy.
Anyone know of a canned Linux distro or bootable CD that fits my needs?
Anyone see any glaring ommissions from my software requirements?
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
So I too am looking for ISO's that will fit on them.
,have not tried.
Damnsmalllinux
Being one of those unfortunate folks with less than 4GB RAM in their laptop, I won't be able to harness the performance offered by running Knoppix from a ramdisk with the toram cheat code.
Morphix, which is what I've been basically using as "Knoppix-Lite," and it does the trick for me. I use the Light-GUI iso, which is about 200MB. It's basically a modular Knoppix (it is, in fact, based on Knoppix). You can also roll your own. Say, if you don't need the GUI module, you can opt for other modules. Pretty neat.
As already mentioned there are off-shoots of Knoppix, and have been for awhile.
The other two options are you roll our own. Or a web interface to the server were you pick what you want, and it puts together a customized iso for you to download.
Since geeks are big on the "new model" I suspect the former will be the one offered.
Firefox, despite all of the marketing hype about how it is small, fast, secure, etc, is virtually unusable on old machines. My p3-700 takes about 2 seconds to create a new window in Linux. Scale down to a pentium 90 and you are looking at a 5-10 second delay. Windows98 IE would probably provide ~1-2 seconds in comparison (until it gets 0wned, anyway).
Sadly, the Linux firefox builds tend to be slower than Windows. I think W32 firefox uses GDI directly, but on Linux you get firefox built with the barely-optimizing GNU C++ compiler on top of GTK+ on top of ATK+ on top of GDK on top of xlib on top of a unix domain socket on top of an xserver on top of an unaccelerated video driver (because the video companies don't release docs).
The Linux desktop is over-abstracted and that fact really sucks for old hardware.
Need - not really. But it could make life easier now and then.
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
What I want to know is if the "Maximum" version comes with more fish on the screensaver (ala XP Plus Pack).
OMGWTFROFLOL!!! That would be kewl!!11
"Second, for scaring the crap out of my computer teacher -- "What did you do to Windows? What the **** did you do to Windows?!?""
Or someone scares the crap out of me. Hopefully the guys at the shop aren't reading this board. I had just gotten through downloading the latest, and burned it. Now I took the disk to another machine to verify everything went OK (as well as to see what it looked like). Unbeknown to me, the machine I selected was a customer machine. After testing and as I was shutting down. I hear a loud "No! No! Not that machine." coming from the manager, quickly approaching. He surprised me so bad, that I couldn't even eject and shut down (3 fingered salute didn't work). Had to hit the reset button. Needless to say, I did inform him that everything was OK with the machine (running Windows naturally). I suspect that part of his reachtion was the customer was in the shop (who's attention was no doubt grabbed by the manager's loud reaction). Of course all ended well.
"As others have said, you can boot Knoppix without it touching the hard drive (or even in a computer without one I assume), and in fact that's the default configuration."
At the shop one of the technicians proved this. He had the case off the hard drive and was doing all sorts of things to it while the machine was running Knoppix. Didn't even hiccup.
you dont get much lite-er than that as live cd's go. and its very freakin useful webshite here can be used as rescue disk (root as default), audio & video streaming and lightweight web browser even on my oldest pc (p2 266mhz) and can be installed (well, docked, but i still get the cd drive back) *pix*
Remastering Knoppix CDs is doable. If any of the standard Knoppix live cds don't meet your needs you can customize one of your own. Ce cil Watson will giving a talk at the Southern California Linux Expo (SCALE 3x) in February about how to go about doing this. Cecil is maintainer of KnoppMyth, a Knoppix distribution customized for use as a Linux based PVR with MythTV.
Would Debian fill that need? Since I've got Debian running on my old 486 laptop. Not to mention on an old 386/33 with 4 megs ram. Had to do a floppy install on both, but they run just peachy. Of course they are lacking everything you've prefaced with the word "lightweight":) So I guess they wouldn't work. But I have MP3 players on the 486 (386 has no sound anyway, not that it could probably handle MP3's), games, and all the usual suspects.
There are several - I usually go to http://www.linux.org/dist/index.html and select the "LiveCD" Category. This suggests a range of options, each with different advantages. I try out a new one every few months, just to get some variety.
One I tried recently, which is close to your needs is FeatherLinux (http://featherlinux.berlios.de/). I'm not sure about XL/Powerpoint in the default install, but it can install OpenOffice if you wish.
"Go to CNN [for a] spell-checked, fact-checked summary" -- CmdrTaco
Okay, and can I force it i.e. to use swapfile while swap partition is present?
Say, I hibernate my native OS to the swap partition, then want to boot Knoppix. If it tries to use the swap partition it will corrupt the "hibernation" image, but the native memory may be not enough to boot the GUI...?
Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
It's nice. However last I tried it. I had a problem with the CD-ROM drive.
There's other knoppix versions out there: Quantian, Open Groupware, GISKnoppix, Knoppix-std.
In soviet russia knoppix splits you.
Have you metaroderated recently?
and, hot grits
and,
I've been here too long
and, it's too late to write others.
This is stuck at mod 0--and, for such good reason!
Damn Small Linux would run well on a system with those specs, but doesn't include the software you want. Check it out and see if you can modify it to suit your needs... It's worth a spin, and not that large a download. At any rate it has VNC so you could use it as a thin client.
I have a PC like that, and I can tell you: the one thing that's not going to work is the web browser. There just aren't any good, graphical web browsers that will run on such hardware.
The closest two are probably Konqueror and Dillo, with Konqueror being a bit too heavy and Dillo lacking too many features. You can also try Netscape 4, though I have had a hard time finding a stable version.
For the rest, you can run Linux, X, a light window manager like icewm or windowmaker, xmms, some games (freeciv), abiword for opening word documents (forget about the joker that mentioned OOo), etc just fine.
Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
Is there any knoppix based distobution that has the vmwware vmtools integrated? To run you knoppix cd in a (faster) vmware box without having to install it, or remaster a cd?
As others have pointed out, you're probably going to have a hard time filling all your requirements on a really low-end box.
However, I recently installed VectorLinux on an old, mid-90s laptop (Toshiba 220CS) and it runs pretty well.
The main requirements for the laptop were word processing (Abiword) and music (XMMS).
Performance isn't stunning, but it's pretty usable.
The idea of Knoppix is great but it only ever seems to half work - you need to be a unix admin to get more than 50% going. Getting sound took a year off my life. The modem doesn't work (it's a winmodem) so I got a wifi transciever with the aim of attaching quietly to a local network - seemed to recognise unit but wouldn't play. I tried XP and everything connected seemlessly - it's infuriating as is I really want to use a linux system. Mike
good work Herr Knopper!
ah yes no relation to the articel, but this is Slashdot and I guess Herr Knopper enjoys some positive feedback for his open source work. I mean what does this guy get, not a lot of money from "support" *cough* (I wonder how often this myth will be repeated that open source provides a business model)... so let him give some big thanks. I like Knoppix and use it from time to time when I want to show a Windows using friend how Linux feels like.
...is what, 13-14 CDs? It is certainly past what you can squeeze in on a dual-layer DVD (11, IIRC), so it could happen. All debian would need is another jidgo file to build it...
Kjella
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Really, Knoppix is everyone's favorite? Give me Ubuntu's Live CD any day!
The Free desktop that Just Works
Puppy linux or Austrumi might be worth a look. No presentation software though.
I am trolling
This might finally push me over the edge to buy a DVD burner... anyone else have an opion here?
but now i think its intentional- can they make the project sound any more like feminine napkins? maybe they should come up with a new discrete carrying case
What? No Menthol?
Yay! Not only do you get a bootable Linux distro, you'll also get a bootable kernel.org mirror ;)
Moderation Total: -1 Troll, +3 Goat
Fact: FireFox is slow and bloated. It takes about 35 MB of main memory, so don't even think about loading it on systems with less than 64 MB of RAM. Even konqueror doesn't take more memory and renders pages at least twice as fast.
So I would suggest something like this:
Conclusion: I think there aren't any Office-compatible apps that run at least halfway decent on a Pentium 90. You'd better try Windows 95 and Office 97, that is even usable on a 486.*) Sorry for the table, but I incapable of convincing Slashdot to display anything table-like.
...But I, for one, do not have a DVD burner. It was a choice I made, as I thought, "When will I ever need to burn a DVD?" I think it will be hard to overcome this problem until a few years down the road, when DVD burners and DVD burning software (is there any for linux?) have become as commonplace as CD burning is today, not to mention a reduction in blank media prices.
I don't know if it's me, but I can never seem to find an FTP site that lets me DL a copy of Knoppix at a speed better than 2-5 Kb/s -- this, on a cable modem! Does anyone else have this problem? The only reason I haven't already given up on FTP and switched to BitTorrent is that our home LAN is on a router that from time to time will flake out under load...
If people are to respect the law, perhaps the law should begin by respecting the people.
And don't even get me started on "cleave" meaning both "to seperate" and "to put together"...
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
MMMmmmm, minty CD goodness...
What about an installer that will give you some choice about what to install on your system?
If they are going to give you an entire DVD's worth of software taking an "install it all or install none of it" approach is going to seem a bit ridiculous.
Being a regular knoppix user I have seen them make some ridiculous decisions to save space on the CD.
For example...not installing an English dictionary for the spellchecker in mozilla, but including a full suite of games and 4 text editors.
I wonder with a whole DVD is they will start supporting gnome again?
I would prefer a WinCE boot USB key and/or CD. Would be a more familiar UI and better support (from MS). Kinda like AMD's 50x15 stuff, but use regular PC or an XBox.
^_^ For that matter, one might ask why telling a girl she "looks nice today" sometimes results in her taking offense, insinuating you mean it didn't look nice before.
Personally, I don't find your second comment as really being offensive. Maybe it's just mentioning ugliness? Use of certain words can definitely tint (taint) the rest of the sentence.
This sig has absolutely no significance and serves only to take up screen space and waste the time of the reader.
I've had a really good experience with installing plain old Debian Woody on old hardware. I set up an old machine for my kids to use. Here's my setup:
Pentium I 100 Mhz cpu w/1xCDROM & ISA slots
Lightweight web browser w/ Java - FF if it's not too heavyI installed FF, too. It's kinda slow, but my kids can even do flash games from sesamestreet.com. If it's not working for you, try Dillo, or even links. You won't have Java, but they're very fast.
Lightweight word processor that opens/saves MS-Word 95 filesTry using catdoc (doc -> txt or tex) to get them out of Word format, altogether... you can even convert them to rtf, by using latex2rtf and then you can open them in AbiWord, or Ted, both very good lightweight Word processors.
Lightweight spreadsheet that opens/saves MS-Excel 95 filesUse xlhtml to convert your Excel file to html, for easy parsing/conversion. Then consider xspread, or even sc. Their file format is ASCII, for easy parsing, and conversion to CSV, which Excel can open without any problem.
Lightweight "presentation" program that opens/saves MS-Powerpoint 95 formatTry ppthtml to convert your PowerPoint files to more flexible HTML.
Other apps I'd recommend:
---
I didn't have a reason to own a DVD writer before this. Crud, now I have to spend money.
Good luck running FF with 16mb ram. I absolutey hate IE, but I could just barely use it, with a 486/dx4 100mhz, and 64 mb ram, Mozilla and FF were simply unusable.
Please tell us: what distro and what applications? There's a lot of /.ers out there that would like to know and use.
Last time I tried it, I couldn't get clusterKnoppix to work. Probably because of a slightly abnormal network layout. But IBM developerworks site in the last few days came out with a how-to on getting clusterKnoppix working with just a couple of nodes. They must have improved the setup because it sure seemed easier from the explanation than from what I remembered.
Now if it were just as easy to get openMosix working on Debian Testing as in clusterKnoppix, then they really might have something worth trying.
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