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Hewlett-Packard To Offer Linux-based Media Hub

Posted by timothy on from the it-should-have-an-iPod-dock dept.

Sammy at Palm Addict writes "According to the New York Times, Hewlett-Packard is to offer a new digital media hub based on Linux," excerpting "Hewlett-Packard will introduce a new device this fall meant to record and play back television as well as organize digital media, including photos, music and video, the company said yesterday. Hewlett already offers similar devices based on Microsoft's Windows Media Center Edition. The device, called the HP Media Hub, will be based on the Linux operating system." Since HP also sells self-branded iPods, it would be great if they'd make such a box iPod friendly.

57 of 184 comments (clear)

  1. Late to the party... by gubbas · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would be nice to HP announce something that hasn't already been done before... Where is the "invent" in this?

    --
    "What I need is an exact list of specific unknown problems we might encounter."
    1. Re:Late to the party... by bebopredux · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hey....anyone getting Linux out there gets a nod by me. I say kudos to HP for doing this.

    2. Re:Late to the party... by EnderWiggnz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      too bad it'll get axed by carly as soon as it doesnt produce buillions in revenue, immediately.

      but yes, kudos to hp for doing something linux.

      --
      ... hi bingo ...
  2. Pretty sparse article by 14erCleaner · · Score: 3, Interesting
    No indication whether it'll be DRM-crippled.

    Of course, this is the new, evil, HP, so I guess I shouldn't get my hopes up.

    --
    Have you read my blog lately?
    1. Re:Pretty sparse article by brokencomputer · · Score: 4, Funny

      Which new evil HP? Did HP used to be good? Has HP always been evil? What makes HP evil now? I might be out of the loop...

      --
      The Television Wiki
    2. Re:Pretty sparse article by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 4, Informative

      Broadcast flag? Check. It's required by law.

      OpenCable DRM? Check. It's built in to the standard.

    3. Re:Pretty sparse article by Bloater · · Score: 4, Funny

      It is a different HP, the old godly HP is a brown spicey sauce that British members of parliament enjoy in their bacon and egg sarnies.

    4. Re:Pretty sparse article by Billly+Gates · · Score: 5, Interesting

      You may want to read the comments on this story and past HP stories for all the details.

      HP like IBM was a different company in the past. They were once known for their engineering, ingenuity, innovativeness, and big R&D.

      Today they are becoming the walmart of the pc industry while still charging high prices. Also they made some questionable business decisions in terms of their superior products. For example killing the alpha processor because they already invested billions in the sinking Itanium to killing off the clustering in the superior Digital Unix and using a vendor to write a lower quality clustering solution for HP-UX, etc.

      Also do not get me started on the calculators. They are practically non existent anymore as HP killed them off.

      HP has turned into a short sighted company who makes substandard products and does not look at the long term effects.

      I for one would never trust an HP printer or server made after 2001 as a result. They are just not good anymore and frankly are still expensive.

      Many slashdotters who have a grudge agaisnt HP were probably former HP customers and loyalists.

      --
      http://saveie6.com/
    5. Re:Pretty sparse article by prozac79 · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Many slashdotters who have a grudge agaisnt HP were probably former HP customers and loyalists

      Or they were once employed by HP or Compaq before the dark times... before Carly.

      --
      "Oh dear, she's stuck in an infinite loop and he's an idiot" -Prof. Farnsworth (Futurama)
    6. Re:Pretty sparse article by shokk · · Score: 2, Funny

      A young pupil of mine named Carly Fiorina killed the old Compaq and helped hunt down the last of the good ones. Search your feelings, you know this to be true.

      --
      "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart, he dreams himself your master."
  3. QNX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    "The device, called the HP Media Hub, will be based on the Linux operating system."

    They could have also used QNX for stability and it's sutability for real-time (of which media is).

    1. Re:QNX by garcia · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They could have also used QNX for stability and it's sutability for real-time (of which media is).

      My Tivo has never crashed and it runs Linux. QNX also costs money to license eh? Linux doesn't. Personally, my media just isn't THAT important that I'd be willing to plop down even more money on a set-top-box just so that it was "more stable" than my Tivo.

    2. Re:QNX by Jason+Earl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This isn't about hacking your digital hub, this is about the economics of operating systems. Basically HP is telling Microsoft that they like the Windows Media idea, but that HP doesn't like the idea of paying Microsoft to implement it. HP has finally realized that the average Joe isn't interested in running MS Word on their television, and so there isn't really any reason to pay Microsoft for the privilege of using Windows. This isn't an issue of Free Software, but of commodity software. That's why HP isn't using QNX. HP isn't interested in paying the folks that develop QNX any more than they are interested in paying the folks in Redmond.

    3. Re:QNX by Jason+Earl · · Score: 2, Funny

      That just goes to show that for all her faults Carly has a pretty good grasp of marketing.

  4. Wont work by mboverload · · Score: 5, Informative

    Of course, this will not let you transfer recorded shows to other computers on the the network. MythTV is currently the only "media hub" that does not have copy protection, or give away freedoms in any way.

    1. Re:Wont work by JWW · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yes....

      Once you get it running.

    2. Re:Wont work by GeorgieBoy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I've run Mythtv for over a year. I've been using:

      -Hauppauge PVR-250 hardware mpeg-encoding TV cards (though newer models are coming out to replace these, but driver support probably isn't as good yet). Note that cards without mpeg-encoding in hardware demand a far faster system: and I tried those first, then bought 2 PVR-250s. -various remotes, including Hauppauge black (crappy) and gray (good) -nvidia card with SVideo out -external firewire DVD burner to archive shows

      -a couple 120GB Seagate HDs set in LVM as storage Since the PVR-250 is an MPEG2 encoder, it's not too much trouble to export them to DVD. Editing/exporting the streams to remove commericials can be a bit annoying, though I think nuvexport can help with this.

      Note this setup is more expensive (in the short run) than just going with a prefab DVR solution with monthly fees associated with it, but you do have a great deal more control over your recorded content. It will probably take a lot for me to be parted with my setup.

    3. Re:Wont work by sulli · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Isn't KnoppixMyth the thing here? (Install off a CD - that's what I have heard. I am hoping to build such a thing shortly.)

      --

      sulli
      RTFJ.
    4. Re:Wont work by mikolas · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a diskless MythTV setup w/ Hauppauge PVR-250, DVD drive and 5.1 decoder. It really is excellent as you basically only have one piece of hardware for all your media needs. And as I boot from a server using PXE, the MythTV frontend is also silent (all the DVR STBs I've tried produce more noise).

    5. Re:Wont work by JWW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, KnoppixMyth is out there.

      But its no fun if you don't get your hands a little dirty. ;-)

    6. Re:Wont work by evilviper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've tried MythTV, and found it to be terribly lowsy. The interface is poor, it uses it's own stupid format, seeking is quite slow, your local media files have to be accessed through a different sub-sub-menu (and MythTV has a lot of sub-sub-sub-menus), and it's conflict resolution/priority system seems massively over-complex to me.

      In addition, if you are going to be doing software encoding, MythTV has terribly lowsy quality at even very high bitrates, and yet eats up tons of CPU power to do it. It's been some time since I tried MythTV, but I doubt much has changed.

      Freevo might be a much better bet, but I was turned-off at the channel setup step, and decided it would be far quiker and easier for me to write a few shell scripts using mencoder for recording, and a simple file manager that opens video files with mplayer.

      I was doing this with a cheapo analog capture card (and eating up CPU cycles encoding to MPEG4 in realtime with mencoder), but hearing the rave reviews about the Hauppauge PVR 250/350, I spent the money to get a PVR250, and found the quality to be no better than what I was getting, and the hardware encoder requires massive bitrates (4000K ie. 2GBs/hr) to produce video without artifacts, whereas mencoder would easily produce video at 1/4 the bitrate, at about the same quality.

      If you want to roll your own, instead of using Freevo/MythTV, here's a few tips:

      webvcr+ provides a nice web interface to schedule recordings, and uses mysql and xmltv to get listings, just as MythTV does. Also install Links 2.0, so you have a web browser that you can navigate easily using your remove. Just bind a key on your remote to launch links (in GUI mode) and open a page to your webvcr+ interface.

      I recomend using any old filemanager, and a bare-minimal window manager (I use blackbox). Then something like bbkeys to bind a remote-control button to open the filemanager to your "videos/" folder, and you're pretty-much set. Just go up/down to your files, and hit "OK" to play them.

      I also have some very basic shell-scripts, which allow me to edit my files in avidemux2, re-encode them to smaller bitrates (if I want to save them), make a data CD out of any number of video files, or re-encode them to VCDs/SVCDs/DVDs any of which can be played on most DVD players. etc, etc. These are things you can't do from within MythTV's interface, but any simple filemanager will have no problem with.

      --
      Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
    7. Re:Wont work by mikolas · · Score: 2, Informative

      The diskless setup was fairly easy using Debian: Debian Diskless. However, the actual kernel configuration was initially a pain as I used 2.6.9 vanilla kernel w/ LIRC backported manually and IVTV drivers manually compiled for the PVR-250. What I'd suggest is to do a minimal local setup first using something like Fedora Core 3 as it should support the hardware out-of-the-box and MythTV is available from ATrpms. Then copy the working installation over to a NFS share, configure dhcpd on the server to support PXE, copy the kernel and possible initrd images to the tftpboot directory and that's about it. Please note that nfsroot support must be compiled into the client kernel and the NIC of the client must support PXE booting. That is something missing from cheap motherboards.

    8. Re:Wont work by jbarr · · Score: 2, Informative

      Though not technically a "hub" as such, ReplayTV 5xxx boxes allow full control using the DVArchive app on a networked PC. Shows can be streamed to a player on the PC for viewing, "offloaded" to the PC, and once on the PC, streamed back to the ReplayTV box for viewing or archived to DVD for later viewing in a DVD player. All without DRM.

      --
      My mom always said, "Jim, you're 1 in a million." Given the current population, there are 7000 of me. God help us all!
  5. Microsoft's probably thrilled by Jason+Earl · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft is counting on Windows Media Center being the "next big thing" to give it the growth that it needs to justify its price/earnings ratio. A Linux-based contender in the same market developed by one of Microsoft's biggest allies is almost certainly going to be a major setback for Microsoft's plans.

    1. Re:Microsoft's probably thrilled by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It may be just a ploy:
      Dell announces AMD based systems to get a better deal from Intel
      HP announces Linux based Media Center PC to get a better deal from Microsoft.

      Happens every so often...

    2. Re:Microsoft's probably thrilled by ch-chuck · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft is counting on Windows Media Center being the "next big thing"

      What's so big about a 'media center'? All it is is tv/stereo in a different package. Being able to watch moving pictures was once big, now it's not. Being able to listen to sound over long distances w/o paying the telco was once big, now it's not. Being able to watch TV was once big, not it's not. Being able to own your own computer was once big, now it's commonplace, as is being able to time shift media broadcasts. How is a 'media center' so revolutionary over what we already have other than the marketing and the needs of a company to find the 'next big thing'? To me it's like saying the new 2005 Ford is the biggest thing out since the 2004 Ford.

      --
      try { do() || do_not(); } catch (JediException err) { yoda(err); }
    3. Re:Microsoft's probably thrilled by Jason+Earl · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not that Media Centers are revolutionary that makes them interesting to Microsoft. It's the fact that there is the potential to sell millions more copies of Windows. Right now almost no one has a computer hooked up to their TV, and those few folks that do have computers hooked up to their TVs aren't generally using any Microsoft software. Instead they are using something like Tivo.

      Microsoft sees the Media Center as a potential market nearly as big as the DVD player market, and Microsoft's marketshare in this potentially huge new market is miniscule. Microsoft is desperate for growth opportunities that would justify its price/earnings ratio of over 30, and Windows Media Center is one of the few Microsoft products currently available that has the potential to build new revenue streams.

      Personally, I think that the Media Center idea is several years away from being ubiquitous, but then again I don't have cable television either. I know lots of folks that would give up their firstborn son before they gave up their Tivo. It is entirely possible that eventually the home entertainment computer could even be a bigger market than the normal personal computer that we all know and love.

      More importantly, the home entertainment computer is very likely to become a very strategic piece of the overall media puzzle. For example, Microsoft is betting that if it can score big with its Media Center that it could sell the ability to do workable DRM to Hollywood. Microsoft understands the power of controlling the platform, and it knows that they could make billions if they could put Microsoft in a position to become the DRM gateway for all of Hollywood.

      Not to mention the fact that Linux-based computers hooked up to the television could easily morph into game consoles. All the pieces are there already.

    4. Re:Microsoft's probably thrilled by MattJakel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't really call HP Microsoft's biggest ally... Sure, the majority of their software comes standard with MS Software but they are one of the few companies to offer desktops and notebooks preloaded with Linux... And they also have HP-UX (even if I can't say many positive things about it), so it's not like they're completely devoted to Microsoft.

    5. Re:Microsoft's probably thrilled by cmacb · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Microsoft is desperate for growth opportunities that would justify its price/earnings ratio of over 30, and Windows Media Center is one of the few Microsoft products currently available that has the potential to build new revenue streams.

      I think the problem is that in their desperation to duplicate their success with Windows they are forced to make moves riskier than they would really like (Xbox) or safe/easy where the return on investment is zero to low (Slate). I think the media center falls into that latter category. People aren't going to pay a $300 premium just to know that the thing is running Windows. The imagined "ease of use" issue that are applied to Windows don't apply to a device with a remote control. Especially when there isn't a sugar daddy (like IBM) who has already established a market for the hardware and done all the hard design work (not to mention a host of software companies that have all but solved those problems as well).

      I'll buy a Linux based solution because I know I am less likely to be locked into a no-choice-but-to-upgrade future. Microsoft can only succeed at this if they convince almost everyone to go along and nominate them as the gatekeeper of everyone else's profitability. I can't see Hollywood or the RIAA going for that. On the other hand, worse things could happen than to see MS beat the crap out of the movie and music industry, they do, in some ways deserve it.

      Meanwhile, I expect Linux, which has no market share, share price, or bottom line to protect to continue to nip at the heals of these media bastards, all of them. In the end if it takes, HP, IBM, or mainland China to be the champion of freedom for certain types of intellectual property (IE that not owned by a mega corporation) then so be it.

      I'll be in line to buy one of these (although I haven't watched TV in 3 years and still listen to my own MP3s made from my own CDs and records made prior to 1990.)

  6. Linux doesn't matter by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As was mentioned in the Linux-based portable media player thread, it makes no difference to the user whether these devices run Linux or not. You can't install any applications, you probably can't get a shell, and you can bet that HP will release the minimal amount of source that is legally required, so hacking will be frustrating.

    And it looks like this device might break a record for the number of different kinds of DRM in one system...

    1. Re:Linux doesn't matter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I imagine I'm not the only /. reader who likes hearing that they're not inadvertantly paying the M$ tax. Also, the larger the market-share of linux-based devices becomes, the greater chance that companies will participate in the open source process to ensure that drivers/codecs/apps are higher quality.

      So, it does matter somewhat.

    2. Re:Linux doesn't matter by jomas1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are right that this media player may not be very hackable (although that remains to be seen) but you can't discount the effect of linux becoming commonplace in appliances. Linux as a desktop/server operating system may never mean anything to the average consumer.

      Linux as the operating system that powers their media devices, remote controls, cars, video game consoles etc, etc will mean a lot more. This may be one of the key ways that linux gains mainstream consumer acceptance.

      --
      http://nyamenation.org/
  7. i can make one myself by halfelven · · Score: 2, Insightful

    and it's based on MythTV:

    http://www.mythtv.org/

  8. Re:what's up with all this by Everach · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why do we need an article for every new gadget that will use Linux?


    The slashdot community is a large proponent of open source, of which Linux is a shining example. A new 'gadget' means another inroad. It means another corporate giant values our dollars and is willing to move away from closed source options to get our patronage.

    We don't care that another gadget uses Linux. We care that another corporation is willing to use an open source solution to get our dollars.

  9. Nope by pnevin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Come on, everyone has to go through the pain and grief of configuring Mythbox to get to all that tasty Linux media goodness.

    (Damn it, I had to)

  10. Pretty sparse article-A Black and White World. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    "What makes HP evil now? I might be out of the loop..."

    Simple really.

    Good==do whatever slashdotters agree is good.

    Evil==slashdotters don't like whatever your doing.

    Now I better get a patent on it, while I can.

  11. New Rule by OECD · · Score: 2, Informative

    OK, everybody. Time for a new rule: You cannot name your product after the generic name for your product's function!

    Got that? No HP Media Hub, no IBM Personal Computer, no MS DOS!

    --
    One man's -1 Flamebait is another man's +5 Funny.
    1. Re:New Rule by Kissing+Crimson · · Score: 2, Funny

      While we're already offtopic, how about the band Live? They made it a bit difficult to talk about "the Live concert I went to this weekend." (insert Abbot & Costello remark here)

      Note: I'm not bashing the band.

      --
      What's that smell? Ah, that's my karma burning...
  12. DRM by halfelven · · Score: 2, Informative

    Oh, and if you're worried about DRM in the context of HDTV, have a look at pcHDTV:

    http://www.pchdtv.com/

    It totally ignores the broadcast flag. ;-) Works with MythTV. Enough said.
    BTW, it will be illegal to sell it in the US after June 2005 (or something like that), so plan accordingly. ;-)
    It will always be legal to use it, if purchased before the deadline, because all such devices will be grandfathered into the new regulations automatically.

  13. Hope its not restricted by t_allardyce · · Score: 3, Insightful

    All I can say is they better not bother trying any DRM bullshit, if it can't share all media, skip adverts etc etc its a useless pile of crap (actually i think shit even has more uses than a PVR/media center with DRM)

    --
    This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
  14. How long by ifwm · · Score: 3, Insightful

    before the fact that something runs a version of Linux is no longer newsworthy. I like this product, and it's worthy of being posted. But I also think there's something a little sad about making a fuss over that fact. That mentality seems a little backward anymore.

  15. Re:iPod compatibility...? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 3, Interesting

    What if you could rip directly from CD onto the media hub, and then sync from the media hub onto an iPod? No computer needed, which some people might see as a benefit.

  16. hah! my Sony Grand Wega runs Linux, too! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    - but i sure as hell can't get into the box!

    - Sony must have cleaned up on the Wegas in the last quarter: LCD projection TV w/built-in HDTV tuner, etc. for $2 (the bulb is replaceable)...

    - Linux apparently hosts the TV's menu system, built-in slide show app (w/a built-in sound track), and memory stick support...

    - the TV also plays .mp3 sound tracks from the memory stick!

  17. Really? by Elwood+P+Dowd · · Score: 2, Informative

    Since HP also sells self-branded iPods, it would be great if they'd make such a box iPod friendly.

    I thought they sold Apple branded iPods. It's through HP's channel. I guess it is listed on PCConnection as the "HP iPod", but it's still got a big apple sandblasted onto the back. They never made that HP-blue iPod all the rumor sites were blathering about.

    --

    There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
    1. Re:Really? by javaxman · · Score: 2, Informative
      The HP logo is there... under the word "iPod", which is under the ( larger ) Apple logo on the back. So, they are in a sense both Apple and HP branded, oddly enough.

      Perhaps they did some research into the marketability of an "HP blue" iPod and decided to call that off... after all, you can always buy the iPod Tattoo kit and print up your own blue umm... those are stickers, right? Yea, that's what I want to do, cover my iPod with stickers...

  18. HP in the living room by UWC · · Score: 3, Informative

    They're apparently introducing TVs and projectors, too. According to a mini-article on Wired, 17 TVs and "TV projectors" in addition to the mentioned media hub. They're just coming a bit late to the wired living room scene, but apparently with a not insubstantial product line. If they integrate the product features well, the line might end up successful. Having an all-in-one HP remote would be a nice incentive, though I guess the one-remote-for-every-device (if you don't want to sacrifice functionality) situation is fairly well accepted at this point.

    --
    Honor Among Slackers. A veri
  19. DRM is not such a bad issue if you consider this by halfelven · · Score: 3, Informative

    It is still legal to sell broadcast-flag-noncompliant devices in the US until June 2005. One such device is pcHDTV which works fine with MythTV
    Even after June, it will still be legal to use such devices, if they were purchased before the deadline.

    Can you put two and two together now? ;-)

  20. So Says Cosmo by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Funny

    For some reason I hear Cosmo from "Fairly Odd Parents" saying "Yeah, but it runs linux!". That's what happens when you watch TV with a 4 year old.

  21. Re:HP15C by VAXcat · · Score: 2, Funny

    If ya were a real computer person, you'd want the HP16C. I bought one 22 years ago, and liked it so much, I bought 3 more so I would alway have one...22 years later, the first one is still going strong...

    --
    There is no God, and Dirac is his prophet.
  22. Matters to HP by spud603 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    You're probably right that from the user's point of view, this won't make a lick of difference. The only thing I can think of is that folks may manage to hack the system and start using VLC for playback, or something...

    But from HP's angle, I can't believe they're only doing this now. If Linux is good for anything, it's for optimized, customized systems. With Linux, HP can build in exactly the functionality they need -- nothing more. Plus it's free.

  23. Yes but what happens in 7995 years? by texasfight · · Score: 3, Funny

    Given today's earlier post http://it.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/01/05/021 6220&tid=126&tid=218, is it Y10K ready, or do I lose almost 8000 years of my music downloads when New Year's comes around?

  24. Re:HP = BAD? by orthogonal · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hewlett-Packard To Offer Linux-based Media Hub

    Don't we hate HP? I thought that we did...

    But not if that Media Hub is designed around Carly Fiorina's head on a stick!

    You just tweak her nose to adjust the volume.

    --
    Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
  25. B-B-But they hire lots of MBAs these days! by jerryasher · · Score: 4, Funny

    You're way wrong, no way that HP can have taken so many disastrous steps.

    They are way improved over just five years ago. What used to be a company dominated by silly, market-ignorant, idealistic engineers and the HP way has now become the market driven, best practices, outsourcing MBA laden HP we know and the markets love

  26. Re:The New HP Linux Media Center Logo by Thomas+Hawk · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Sorry. http://thomashawk.com/2005/01/hp-launching-linux-m edia-center-pc-to.html

  27. Re:who cares? by Bloater · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah, but any PC box doesn't look like a set top, nor does it come with software support or the HP brand confidence.

  28. Re:DRM is not such a bad issue if you consider thi by dcgaber · · Score: 2, Informative

    I can put two and two together, but the pcHDTV does nothing to decrypt satellite or cable HD content. All this will get you is broadcast OTA HD signals. That is great if you like local sports and reality tv. Me, I don't like reality tv, and most sports I do watch are on cable as it is. Nevertheless, I will probably be getting one of these cards to throw in my myth box right around May, I mean if another tit gets shown on the superbowl, i want to capture that in its hi-def gloriness.

  29. HP made the best calculators ever produced by Gnavpot · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have seen very few HP calculators in my life, most of the calculators were in fact Texas Instruments.

    When I was young, Texas Instruments made cheap, inferior scientific calculators. The keys vere shitty - you pressed and nothing happened, you pressed a little more and suddenly the display was filled with 8 occurences of the same digit.

    At the same time, HP made expensive calculators which could be thrown against a wall without taking any damage, which had very precise and everlasting keys, and which had OPN (a reverse, but very intuitive way of entering a calculation).

    During most of my education (I am a mechanical engineer), HP calculators were the norm. We could buy Texas if we wanted, but we would then be on our own without any help during lessons.

    Today I still use a HP calculator though it is not the same quality as my old mid-eighties HP-15C which was stolen. My wife still has and uses her HP-15C as do several of my colleagues. I have never ever seen or heard of a broken HP calculator from that time.