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This Call May Be Monitored ...

Posted by michael on from the important-to-us dept.

Iphtashu Fitz writes "We've all heard it. The recorded message when you call technical support or your bank or credit card company: 'This call may be monitored for quality assurance purposes.' But has it ever occurred to you that people actually DO listen in? Approximately 2 percent of these calls are listened to either live or after the fact, and it may come as a surprise that Big Brother even listens to what you may say while you are on hold. The people who monitor these calls routinely hear arguments between spouses or parents and children, people yelling at pets, and all sorts of other domestic disputes."

71 of 443 comments (clear)

  1. Turn it to your advantage by fembots · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Just pretend talking to your friend while on hold, discussing the option to switch to another competitor "if this call doesn't solve my problems", that might get you something.

    --
    Rock that crushes, Paper & Scissors that don't matter.
    1. Re:Turn it to your advantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This begs another question (and possibly a warning to those monitoring calls). . .

      There are currently 12 states that require "All Party Concent" in order to legally record a phone conversation. If I am on the phone with one of these individuals (in one of the states obviously), and they are recording a conversation that I am having with a third party, isn't it the case that "All" parties haven't agreed to the recording. It would be nice to hear from someone who could say, "IAAL" instead of me (IANAL).

    2. Re:Turn it to your advantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      IAAL but im busy so i'll give you the relevant case cites if youre interested in the common law on the subject :

      1. United States v. Friedman, Docket No. 98-1398(L), 98-1425, 98-1435, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SECOND CIRCUIT, 300 F.3d 111; 2002 U.S. App. LEXIS 15772, March 4, 2002, Argued, August 6, 2002, Decided, As Corrected August 23, 2002, US Supreme Court certiorari denied by Friedman v. United States, 2003 U.S. LEXIS 3006 (U.S., Apr. 21, 2003)

      OVERVIEW: Notice that jailhouse phone calls, except to attorneys, would be intercepted was sufficient for ordinary-course exception to wiretap law; failure to charge and prove murder-victim's death violated Apprendi but was harmless error.

      CORE TERMS: notice, conspiracy, recording, extortion, crime of violence, telephone, sentence, marijuana, recorded, beyond a reasonable doubt ... ... provides some notice to inmates that calls may be monitored, the facility's "practice of automatically ...

      2. United States v. Hammond, No. 01-4484, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE FOURTH CIRCUIT, 286 F.3d 189; 2002 U.S. App. LEXIS 6800, January 25, 2002, Argued, April 12, 2002, Decided, Writ of certiorari denied: Hammond v. United States, 2002 U.S. LEXIS 6747 (U.S. Oct. 7, 2002).

      OVERVIEW: Once an interception was exempt under the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act of 1968, the police were free to use the intercepted conversations without having first obtained a warrant.

      CORE TERMS: interception, tapes, recording, conversation, telephone, intercepted, recorded, inmate, prison, acquisition ... ... consent form acknowledging that their calls may be monitored and recorded and that use of the telephones ... ... BOP reminds the inmates that their calls may be monitored by placing notices of ...

      3. United States v. Kalyvas, No. 96-5144, No. 96-5176, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE TENTH CIRCUIT, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 29050; 1997 Colo. J. C.A.R. 2480, October 21, 1997, Filed, RULES OF THE TENTH CIRCUIT COURT OF APPEALS MAY LIMIT CITATION TO UNPUBLISHED OPINIONS. PLEASE REFER TO THE RULES OF THE UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THIS CIRCUIT., Reported in Table Case Format at: 127 F.3d 1110, 1997 U.S. App. LEXIS 35003.

      OVERVIEW: An attorney's conviction for wire fraud was affirmed and his claim that he had no duty to inform a third-party of his client's past criminal conduct was rejected because irregardless of this duty, it was not a required element for his conviction.

      CORE TERMS: feldspar, indictment, scheme to defraud, wire, conversation, superseding, convicted, telephone, interstate, furtherance ... ... consents, impliedly or expressly, that his calls may be monitored, or when such monitoring constitutes "law ...

      4. United States v. Daniels, Nos. 89-2014, 89-2015, 89-2017, 89-2025, 89-3176, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE SEVENTH CIRCUIT, 902 F.2d 1238; 1990 U.S. App. LEXIS 7636, January 18, 1990, Argued, May 10, 1990, Decided, Rehearing and Rehearing En Banc Denied, June 11, 1990, Reported at: 1990 U.S. App. LEXIS 9681.

      OVERVIEW: An nunc pro tunc order signed by judge was sufficiently reliable evidence of a judge's determination to extend the grand jury after the expiration of its 18 month term, therefore indictments against defendants for drug offenses were valid.

      CORE TERMS: grand jury, indictment, pleaded guilty, recollection, guilty plea, sentencing, sentence, grand, oversight, expired ... ... says that inmates' phone calls may be monitored. That is the kind of argument that makes ...

      5. Epps v. St. Mary's Hospital, Inc., No. 85-8952, UNITED STATES COURT OF APPEALS FOR THE ELEVENTH CIRCUIT, 802 F.2d 412; 1986 U.S. App. LEXIS 32383, October 17, 1986, Petition for

    3. Re:Turn it to your advantage by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      and some more for your reading pleasure :

      1. Keenan v. Peterson,
      92 Or.App. 703, 759 P.2d 1140, Or.App., Aug 24, 1988 ...monitored telephones in the prison yard from which he may make unlimited collect calls when the yard is open. Petitioner also has access to five other monitored telephones in his unit which are available weekends and evenings. Above each telephone is a sign advising that telephone calls are monitored. Monitoring is routine, random and for the sole purpose of ensuring the security and orderly management of OSCI. OSCI's policy regarding calls to attorneys is posted in each unit. It states that calls to attorneys are not monitored. Monitoring a telephone conversation between an inmate and his attorney is a violation of OSCI's regulations. At the hearing, a corrections officer testified that OSCI staff does monitor inmate telephone calls, but that monitoring is stopped if it appears that a call ...

      2. Campiti v. Walonis,
      453 F.Supp. 819, D.Mass., Jun 30, 1978 ...monitoring nor was aware of it. No employee of the Department of Correction informed Campiti prior to the call that the telephone call would be monitored. The first time the plaintiffs learned of the monitoring of the call was during discovery proceedings in their Franklin County case. No institutional regulation then in effect at MCI Walpole informed inmates of the possibility of their phone calls being monitored. No evidence was adduced to support a finding that the monitoring was reasonably related to maintaining internal security at MCI Walpole, and I find it was not so related. Shortly after the conclusion of the call, Martin telephoned defendant Hall with the intention of asking that Campiti be returned to Greenfield. Commissioner Hall had been advised by Walonis to expect the call. He did not take Martin's call that day. During the time that Walonis had been a member of the...

      3. U.S. v. Lopez,
      106 F.Supp.2d 92, D.Me., Jul 31, 2000 ...monitor the calls or carry out other investigatory activities. Additionally, surveillance teams routinely spent down time at the wiretap plant listening to intercepted telephone calls. While recording the conversation, the monitoring equipment simultaneously broadcasted the monitored conversation over a speaker. The calls were audible throughout the room in which the plant was located. Accordingly, the civilian monitors, the shift supervisors, and any other law enforcement officers present at the plant could listen to each telephone call as it was intercepted. The shift supervisors testified that they were familiar with the minimization instructions, understood that it was one of their responsibilities to ensure minimization efforts were carried out, and would have instructed the civilian monitors to minimize a nonpertinent call if necessary. However, such instructions from the shift supervisors to the civilian monitors were apparently unnecessary for two reasons. First, the shift supervisors testified that the civilian monitors were proficient and...

      4. People v. Cherry,
      2003 WL 21295254, 2003 N.Y. Slip Op. 50949(U), N.Y.Co.Ct., May 21, 2003 ...monitoring their personal telephone calls. [FN2] FN2. Issues pertaining to calls to attorneys were also involved but are not pertinent to the issues in the instant case. Federal rules provided that inmates were generally allowed to make unlimited long distance calls which were randomly and routinely monitored by correctional officials. The purpose of the monitoring was "to preserve the security and orderly management of the institution and to protect the public." (28 C.F.R. 540.101) The regulations regarding monitoring were posted and the Court held that the inmates had reasonable notice that monitoring of their conversations might occur. The Court concluded that the monitoring of personal telephone calls was in the ordinary course of the prison officials' duties and was thus permissible under 18 U.S.C. 2510(5

    4. Re:Turn it to your advantage by Kethinov · · Score: 2, Informative

      I turned it to my advantage.

      Some time ago I ordered a phone/DSL service whilst in a college dorm. For the entire first month, the service didn't work at all. The phone company had no idea why and I had no idea why. After a while I figured out that the college had accidentally destroyed the lines while doing construction work on the building. I called the phone company and explained the situation to them and they told me they'd kill the service and revoke my bills.

      Months later I get a bill for $100 interest on unpaid bills from the phone company. I call them back and pull a "WTF?!". I asked them to examine the recording of my previous conversation with them and the charges were dropped.

      Recordings have non malicious uses you know.

      --
      You're right, I wouldn't steal a car. But if it were possible, I sure as hell would download one!
    5. Re:Turn it to your advantage by Skuld-Chan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just pretend talking to your friend while on hold, discussing the option to switch to another competitor "if this call doesn't solve my problems", that might get you something.

      As someone who has worked in several call centers I can honestly tell you that the QA departments who monitor calls could really care less. I used to get threatened all the time with that statement while on the phone - just made me want to hang up quicker. The reason why is my co-workers and I were paid 9$/hr (and I'm not kidding in the slightest) to support these complex applications for a company we didn't work for.

  2. Crap by GweiLeong · · Score: 2, Funny

    So the FBI and CIA know my mother's pissed that I haven't given her any grandkids yet? There goes my presidential hopes.

  3. Sheesh by glaqua · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What part of "This call may be monitored" did you not understand?

  4. Big Brother? Not quite... by Lindsay+Lohan · · Score: 3, Informative
    Approximately 2 percent of these calls are listened to either live or after the fact, and it may come as a surprise that Big Brother even listens to what you may say while you are on hold
    Listeners are primarily interested in monitoring the agent and his/her adherence to support protocol--not the caller per-se, as some sort of eavesdropping effort. IMO, that doesn't equate to "Big Brother"... however I'll keep my finger near the mute button :)

    You'd think that if 2% of the calls are monitored for quality control purposes... then QC would actually improve in the long run. In my experience, phone support/service is generally about the same (or less) quality as it was many years ago.
    1. Re:Big Brother? Not quite... by tomhudson · · Score: 3, Interesting
      however I'll keep my finger near the mute button
      Have you tested yuor mute button - a LOT of phones, if you listen carefully, you can still hear someone who's pressed their MUTE button - it doesn't completely cut off the sound.
    2. Re:Big Brother? Not quite... by danheskett · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What they want to know is: how much crappy service is the average customer willing to put up with before thinking seriously about switching.

      Then they aim to provide just above that level.. so they want to know: "What is the least amount of money we can spend to please the largest number of customers just enough to keep thme as customers"

    3. Re:Big Brother? Not quite... by jaguar5150 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This reminds me of the time I called my ISP to have them fix the perpetually increasing ping on my connection.

      I requested a credit to my account as I was not able to use the connection for what I ordered the service for: Playing games! [read: surfing porn]

      The person on the other end of the phone put me on "hold/mute" while I was running their "tests". He proceeds to start making fun of my request for a credit and blah, blah, blah to his co-workers. I heard every word of what he said and when he came back to the line I asked him if he thought it was funny. He replied with, "No, sir why?" I said, "Next time, you might want to test your mute button to make sure it works before making comments to your co-workers about customers currently on the phone with you."

      He sheepishly replied, "I'm sorry, sir. You should have a $20 credit on your next statement."

    4. Re:Big Brother? Not quite... by hobbesx · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Somewhat related:


      When I worked in a call center, most of the reps there (myself included) would mute the line, rather than put a customer on hold. I figured it's because they kept call stats, and reps with lots of hold time were spoken to. Regardless, everyone who used mute instead still asked the customer to hold. You'd be surprised the things that you can hear when a customer thinks that no one is listening. As strange as it is, lots of times what you heard would be a tip on what they were actually trying to get, that they wouldn't tell you when you're on the line, so you could actually help them better than if you hadn't heard their 'hold' comments.

      Of course, if the comments were them admiting they were wrong to someone nearby, 'better' doesn't necessarily mean in their favor...

      --
      This rating is Unfair ( ) ( ) Fair (*) Funny
      Sigh... If only. Modding would be so much more fun.
  5. HAving worked at a big TeleSales company .. by crypty · · Score: 5, Funny

    I always loved telling people they were on hold and listening to them for a while... People seem to lose all sense of reality when you tell them they are on hold.. Some of the names you get called are quite.... entertaining.

    --
    "Carpe Noctem"
    1. Re:HAving worked at a big TeleSales company .. by jetkust · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People seem to lose all sense of reality when you tell them they are on hold

      Actually what they say while they think they are on hold IS the reality.

  6. This call may be monitored or recorded by sgtron · · Score: 4, Funny

    This call may be monitored or recorded? Ok thanks, I'll just hit record now then.. thank you for your permission.

    --
    No todo lo que es oro brilla
    1. Re:This call may be monitored or recorded by crypty · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Tele ___insert occupation here___ get very upset when you offer to record them. THey just stop dead in their tracks and wait... They are not really much fun..

      --
      "Carpe Noctem"
    2. Re:This call may be monitored or recorded by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

      Um, since when did you need their permission? You're a party of the conversation you can record it all you want.
      There are twelve states that require permission from both sides of a phone call for it to be recorded. This site has the list.

    3. Re:This call may be monitored or recorded by Java+Pimp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In Illinois it's illegal to eavesdrop on your own conversation...

      --
      Ascalante: Your bride is over 3,000 years old.
      Kull: She told me she was 19!
  7. Re:Here We Go Again by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'd like to tell their stupid machine that I'm recording their call; and keep the record for when I need to complain to their management about poor customer support.

    I assume if I tell their on-hold-music-machine "I'm recording your call too" that would be OK.

  8. My Rights Online? by goldspider · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I don't get it.

    My rights: I'm told that the call may be monitored. I can hang up if I object. No 'rights' are being violated.

    Online: You mean "on the phone", right?

    Seriously, where's the BIG BROTHER story here? Slow news day?

    --
    "Ask not what your country can do for you." --John F. Kennedy
    1. Re:My Rights Online? by RpiMatty · · Score: 2, Insightful

      In the USA the law does NOT dictate the permission is needed. In most states as long as you are a party in the conversation you can record the conversation.
      Each state has slightly different laws.
      Someone else already posted a comment with a site with outlines for each different states laws

  9. Re:Here We Go Again by GweiLeong · · Score: 2, Funny

    The sad thing is I hate to think what some people have said while on hold.

    "Dammit, Bob, that's not how you make crystal meth! Hold the phone for a sec, Janice. Eugene! Put that blunt away, it's mine dammit!"

  10. listening in by PTBarnum · · Score: 2, Informative

    I don't know about Iphtashu Fitz, but when I hear a message saying "this call may be monitored", I generally assume it is there for a reason, i.e. this call may be monitored. Are there really people who are suprised that some of their calls are in fact monitored?

    This is fairly universal among call centers, because call center managers never trust their employees to do the right thing without first-hand supervision.

    To be fair, I was suprised about the on-hold part. What is the point of listening to that?

  11. Privacy concerns? by lothar97 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    It's common for places to state "this call may be monitored for training and feedback," but I imagine most people (like myself) assume this means you're recorded only when talking to a live person.

    Generally when I'm on hold, I'm either bitching about the f'ing annoying voicemail system that won't properly connect me, or about the idiot who has put me on hold for the fifth time while "helping" me. Great, I must have a lot of black marks on my "record" with Cingular, because I curse like a sailor when I'm on hold...

    --

  12. It's true by paranode · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I interviewed for a phone support job a few years ago when I was a college student. Before I even talked to the interviewer, they took me to the floor and hooked me up to listen with a support rep. This was a bank, I won't say which one. I listened to account numbers, socials, you name it. I wasn't even an employee. I didn't end up getting the job, either (though I was sort of glad after hearing the irate customers for ten minutes).

    And yeah, they can hear you on hold, so do be careful.

    1. Re:It's true by tazochai · · Score: 5, Funny

      One time I was on hold with some customer service guy, I turned to my friend and said, "omg this guy sounds like he's 12 years old". The guy came back on the line and said, "I heard that you know."

      pwned.

  13. Thanks for ruining my date.... by VE3ECM · · Score: 4, Funny
    "Recently, Pike stumbled onto a call where a young male customer was flirting with a female service agent at a cell phone company. After some giggles and banter, the woman relented and gave her personal phone number to the customer. Pike quickly alerted the cell phone company to the phone date."

    Dammit... that was my first date this millenium, too. No wonder she told me off when I called!

  14. HA by megarich · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well my question is if these people say hear arguments, death threats and what not and now someone gets murdered, should they be held liable because they knew something could happen but didn't act upon it?

    Of course they won't be but all I'm saying if you are gonna eavesdrop, you should take ALL responsibilities that come along with it....

  15. what the message should say by geekpuppySEA · · Score: 2, Funny

    "For quality assurance, your call may be monitored, quantified, duly mocked among coworkers, used in training courses as an example of a psycho user, or outright ignored."

    --
    Intelligent Design: because MATH is HARD.
  16. I wish! by underpar · · Score: 2, Funny

    This takes me back to the bad old days while working in a phone center for Cross Country Bank. On my last day I told everyone not to sign up for the Visa because the company sucked and the customer service number was long distance.

    I really wanted someone to be listening to that, but I didn't get a response form the mysterious back room. I just hope they heard it on tape.

    manda

  17. What amazes me... by krbvroc1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What I don't understand is not that *shock* a call is being monitored after I hear a recording saying that it is being monitored. No, what I don't understand is how these recordings have not seemed to improve quality / customer service. I keep getting the same tech droid giving wrong answers as before. Typically I'm thinking to myself, if someone is monitoring this call for quality, please speak up and help!

    1. Re:What amazes me... by krbvroc1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This would appear to be what why it is so ineffective. Most of my worse customer call experiences is when I'm calling back for the 5th time and the tech droid wants to start on step #1 of the script, 'Sir, is the widget plugged in?'.

  18. I had to do this by British · · Score: 2, Informative

    Being an unofficial supervisor in my tech support job, I did my share of monitoring calls. It's pretty uneventful. You're just checking out if your tech support rep guy is doing his/her job right. You fill out a form in regards to the call, and send it to his/her manager.

    Heck, I once got a super-irate customer yelling & screaming at me, and told a coworker(who had supervisor priveledges too), and he asked me "What's your extension?", and I gave it to him so he could listen in on the fun. When you work tech support, you have to make the job fun.

  19. Please Terminate The Call by charliefrog77 · · Score: 3, Funny

    I kept a young, hopeful MCI rep tied up for forty five minutes during a routine "would you like to try our internet service" call. Playing the role of a slightly mentally retarded teenager, I actually had the guy explaining to me that I could check my email when the computer wasn't connected, and that their install CD would work in my blueberry IMAC even though there were four other discs jammed in it already. The person monitoring the call broke in and asked the young man to "please terminate the call." He called me back when he realized what was going on and gave me a royal cussing, also informing me that he'd switched my long distance service to MCI's most expensive plan. I stayed in character the whole time, actually putting the phone down to go take a leak and returning to his angry yammering. When I returned, I explained to him (in my best "retard voice") that I'd set a pick lock on the line and he was full of crap. I got a call back the next day from the manager (who had broken into the previous call) and he explained that the kid had been disciplined. Whatever that meant. He probably got a few paid vacation days and an MCI tote bag.

  20. I used to listen-in on phone calls at the bank... by Rude+Turnip · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and it really was for quality assurance purposes. When I trained be a customer service rep for CoreStates bank, they would have you tap into various reps phone calls and listen-in to learn how the job gets done. Sometimes you would even physically sit next to that rep and listen-in, unbeknownst to the customer. The supervisors would also listen in to random calls to make sure everyone is being friendly, helpful, etc.

    Call monitoring is a quality control function of the customer service department of the company you do business with, not the CIA/FBI/NRO/Freemasons.

    --
    Bill Clinton: Pimp we can believe in. - The Shirt!!!
  21. listening in. by RoundTop-VJAS · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I work at a support center (one where there is no punch menu system other than "if you wish to leave a voice mail" [and get ignored[) and this is very important for us as if a customer flies off the handle we can record it...and then threaten to cut the customer off internet until he behaves nice.

    Other than that, mostly it is employee review, etc.

    --
    RoundTop

  22. Re:I guessed as much... by psyon1 · · Score: 2, Funny

    You tell them you dont want to be recorded by hanging up. Then again, that does suck if your calling for support or something.

  23. Can lead to unexpected results by eric76 · · Score: 2, Funny

    I knew one president of a company who noticed one day that every desk in the office had a recorder to record the telephone calls.

    So he went to a local store and bought a bunch of casette tapes, took them back to the office, and put a tape in each recorder.

    After that, about once a month, he'd go through the office to pick up the old tapes and put in fresh tapes.

    He would then put the tapes he collected in a box in his car trunk. While driving around Houston, he'd listen to the tapes to see how his employees were dealing with the customers.

    His wife actually ran the office. He acted more as an idea man and met personally with the customers whenever necessary.

    One day his wife borrowed his car. She picked up the tape off the seat and put it in the tape player.

    It was her telephone calls.

    She thought her husband was spying on her and filed for divorce. As part of the divorce settlement, she received $1,000,000 paid in equal monthly installments over 5 years.

    His lawyer screwed up royally. He didn't include a stipulation that she couldn't use the money to compete against his company.

    So she used the money to start up a company that competed directly against him.

    Without her running his office and without him delegating the authority very well to an employee to run the office, her company pushed his into bankruptcy in five years. At the time they filed bankruptcy, he had only one remaining payment of the $1,000,000 left to make.

  24. Turing test - phonesex by wash23 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I hope someone was listening the time I administered the Turing test to a female synthetic-voice / voice-recognition self-help system, in the form of an attempt to solicit phone sex... (Telus customer assistance robot: 1-800-400-2598)

  25. Financial calls by rewt66 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    When I call some financial institutions (Fidelity at least, maybe others), they say "this call will be recorded". It's not big brother, it's big bucks. If I tell them to transfer some money, and then later say, "Hey, where did my money go", they have the recording to say, "Don't get smart with us, we did it because you told us to."

    On the other hand, if it really isn't my voice, then the recording protects me.

    Am I supposed to have a problem with this? I don't...

  26. I have two problems with this. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    One:
    When I'm on hold, and can't hear them, I have an expectation that they can't hear me, because that is how 99% of phones work when you press the hold button. And there's no reason they should be recording stuff when on hold and I'm not talking to their guy.

    Two:
    "The call may be monitored." is NOT the same thing as "This call may be RECORDED." If I hear that the call may be monitored I have always assumed that meant that someone might be listening in on the call AT THAT MOMENT. And monitoring != recording.

  27. Advice for calling Tech Support/Customer Service by chrisG23 · · Score: 4, Informative

    As a former phone customer service person, and phone tech support person, Id like to let everyone know to STFU when you are placed on hold. If you don't hear hold music, (and sometimes even if you do) the phone tech has put you on mute while while he/she curses the series of life events that led him/her to have to *try* to help you (and/or just researches the issue). The phone tech can hear what you are saying, and one thing we are not fond of is people talking thrash about the tech support. This may lead to you not being helped out.

    A general rule of thumb is that the nicer and more reasonable you are on the phone, the better the quality of support you will receive, and the faster you will be off the phone with your problem solved. Its fucked, but thats reality. Also, most call logging systems have a section for "Technician comments", which can be anything from "customer follows directions well" to "customer is an asshole". This can influence greatly the way you are treated by future technicians. Sometimes I've escalated calls for a callback (in 1-2 days for one company I worked at) just because I won't deal with a rude fuck. At one company, this was unoffical policy.

  28. Re:Here We Go Again by krbvroc1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    And, as always, my question is this: how is it that this is related to my rights online when I call up a remote location, with no idea what's on the other end, and my call is recorded when I speak INTO THE PHONE *after* I'm told it might be recorded?

    Perhaps if you RTFA you'll see that the issues are more complex than this. For me, two parts of the article that disturbed me are
    1) That the monitoring itself even captures what you say while on hold. Despite the 'please hold' and you listen to music, they are recording what you say. That was a reminder for me. I kinda thought the monitoring would be done while you were communicating with someone, not while listening to muzak. I wonder how many times they have heard me say 'If you are so concerned about your customer, don't make me wait on hold' or perhaps 'Thanks for my patience? Do I have a f'in choice?'
    2) The monitoring itself is being outsource. Third parties, sometimes in other countries, are listening in when the rep asks you for you account number, mothers maiden name, etc. Thats a privacy issue about how my data is protected/not protected.

    I think you are focusing on the wrong parts of the article.

    As far as how does this relate to online? Hmm, its a stretch, more about affects of technology. TFA does mention VOIP.

  29. Re:Here We Go Again by cavemanf16 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I agree, michael is once again being a socialist prick. If he had actually read the frickin' article he'd also notice this gem:

    Recently, Pike stumbled onto a call where a young male customer was flirting with a female service agent at a cell phone company. After some giggles and banter, the woman relented and gave her personal phone number to the customer. Pike quickly alerted the cell phone company to the phone date.

    Notice here that the phone monitor dude, Pike, is not calling the cell phone company to go get that evil customer. No. He's calling to tell the cell phone company that they have a representative of their company setting up a date with a customer. This obviously puts the company in a sticky situation since they're most likely NOT in the business of being a match-making service, and this kind of behavior is almost certainly NOT allowed on "company time."

    And I have listened to these monitored calls. Being the evil Big Brother that I am, I can tell you that not once have I even cared how the customer acted or behaved. All we're concerned about is how well did our agents handle the customer's question, complaint, or problem. More often than not we see agents not doing the right thing, just like the article mentioned. I truly do not see how this story relates to "My Rights Online" AT ALL!

    I hope michael gets sick and tired of our berating his pathetic trolling and leaves /. soon, just like Katz.

  30. Re:Here We Go Again by ikea5 · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Didn't they just informed you that "this call, MAY, be recorded"?

    So yes, you may record the call without telling them since they just give you the consent.

  31. Use it to your advantage by Teppy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Actually you don't have to, at least not in Pennsylvania. If both parties know the call may be recorded it's perfectly legal to record it. Of course they never expect *you* to record the call.

    I bought a handy device to do just that, and it's already paid for itself: I foolishly signed up with what turned out to be a fly-by-night phone company. Our phone lines would cut out every morning for between 5 and 20 minutes - no outgoing calls, and incoming calls would receive a message saying "could not be completed as dialed."

    I reported the problem to them many times, and they could never fix it, so I tried to cancel the service. They refused, claiming the contract hadn't been fulfilled. So I switched to the old phone company and all was fine with the service.

    A couple months later I get a letter from a lawyer demanding $1200 for the cancelled contract. I played the totally legal recordings (after all, they said "this call may be monitored or recorded") back of me reporting the shitty service to their techs, and voila, the lawyer went away!

    1. Re:Use it to your advantage by Herr+Joebob · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Of course they never expect *you* to record the call.


      Sure they do... When I was doing phone support part of the training was to tell us that customers may record the calls, and if the customer warned us about it to tell them it was fine. The attitude was that it's the customer's call anyway, so they can record it if they want to.

      I'm sure it depends on the company, attitudes may vary, etc. But they're certainly aware that some customers will do it.
    2. Re:Use it to your advantage by WebCrapper · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I use to work Tech Support for an ISP in PA and I can say that while you're technically true, most companies will refuse to work with you if you where recording the call. That was a normal thing with us - if you told us you where recording, we got off the phone within one minute. Why? Because this is normally someone trying to catch a company screwing up, either by accident or on purpose. Those types of people look for ways around extra fees and such. Now, I've never had someone admit to recording a major complaint (most of it was minor like "my email hasn't worked for 2 days" - wrong password; or "My connection speeds suck" - upgrade driver), but due to policy, I would have gotten off the phone anyway.

      Also, I've monitored calls from the start of the menu (for technical support, press 1....). Things I've heard have been a few bathrooms (along with normal noise associated with it), sex, arguements, etc... Not very fun stuff because people just don't think. My wife didn't understand why I would sit totally quiet while on hold and not allow her to talk - until I told her a few stories.

    3. Re:Use it to your advantage by Sparr0 · · Score: 2

      thats just it though, we dont HAVE to tell you we are recording it. once YOUR computer says "this call may be recorded" then we can record it.

    4. Re:Use it to your advantage by nolife · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I would assume that if a customer feels the need to record a support call, they are probably trying to cover their own buts. Why would you feel you had to disconnect and what made you feel uncomfortable with being recorded? If you were doing a good job and following the requirements of your compnay, there will be no problems at all. If you want to return cuss words and act like the potential idiot on the other line then you may have issues. Are you afaid you would guide someone in the wrong direction or feel your support would be the suck? I've done support for companies at all different levels, sometimes with a group of many, and others by myself. Someone recording a call would not bother me at all as I am accountable for what I say either way and I am the same person either way and I am confident in what I tell them. If I do not know, I tell them, if I am unsure of something, I tell them, if I need time to research and call them back, I do. If it is something i can not handle, I find someone that can or call them back.
      Unless you are making stuff up on the phone and providing people with bogus information, you should have no worries at all. If your company is giving YOU obviously wrong information and you pass it along, you are not the problem, the compnay is and any recordings provided would just prove you were following the company policy. If a If I was dealing with a company that had a "get rid of them" if they record policy, I would be looking elsewhere for service or expect crappy service if I did really need help.

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    5. Re:Use it to your advantage by kd5ujz · · Score: 2, Funny
      Things I've heard have been a few bathrooms (along with normal noise associated with it), sex, arguements, etc.


      At What point during sex do you decide to call Tech Support? I would imagine the Arguments are the women complaining about the guy calling tech support because he is having a floppy problem, or possibly having trouble inserting something in some socket.
      --
      -William
      God is everything science has yet to explain.
    6. Re:Use it to your advantage by me+at+werk · · Score: 2, Funny

      Paypal doesn't like it. Boy does this lady get mad. It's rather funny though.

      --
      For context, click Parent.
    7. Re:Use it to your advantage by Karma+Farmer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, I've monitored calls from the start of the menu... Not very fun stuff because people just don't think.

      They're stuck on hold. Why the hell should they have to be courteous to you?

    8. Re:Use it to your advantage by AllUsernamesAreGone · · Score: 2, Insightful

      most companies will refuse to work with you if you where recording the call.
      Yeah, the last thing they want is a level playing field.

      Because this is normally someone trying to catch a company screwing up, either by accident or on purpose.
      Which, IMO, should be something they are quite permitted to do: the number of times I've run into situations where things agreed or sorted out over a phone line suddenly become unsorted or different from what was agreed when black-and-white proof turns up weeks later in the mail (whether deliberately or through misunderstandings) is terrible. With serious business being done over the phone, I have a hard time seeing how it can be fair that one side can record it with impunity while the other is left with nothing if the other screws up or decides to change things.

  32. Re:Here We Go Again by TheCarp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Granted, socialism doesn't work...

    Granted of course. I will be sure to tell that to my sister the next time that she gets a few gallons of government subsidised Milk for her child. Or the next time I see my father laid off and scraping by and manages to pay the mortgage with his unemployment check while he looks for a new job.

    I will be sure to let them know exactly what a dismal failure socialism is.

    Perhaps if we went back a hundred years and told that to the people who worked untold hours for barley livable pay and had no protections, when being hurt on the job meant you were unemployable and had no safety net and were just dropped to fend for yourself. Yes, maybe if we could go back and let them know what a failure socialism is, we could get out of this socialist hell hole of unemployment, and workers comp and maternitiy leave, and all the other horrible socialist policies that don't work.

    Then we can go back to working full days 6 days a week just to pay the rent and feed ourselves with no vacation. Wouldn't that be great?

    -Steve

    --
    "I opened my eyes, and everything went dark again"
  33. Re:Here We Go Again by plague3106 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This obviously puts the company in a sticky situation since they're most likely NOT in the business of being a match-making service, and this kind of behavior is almost certainly NOT allowed on "company time."

    So is it wrong for a waitress to spend a little time flirting with a customer? Or agreeing to go out on a date with him?

  34. Re:Here We Go Again by jabber01 · · Score: 2, Funny

    But, if you're recording the hold music, the RIAA might have a thing or two to say about it.

    --

    The REAL jabber has the user id: 13196
    What you do today will cost you a day of your life

  35. Re:Here We Go Again by topham · · Score: 2, Insightful


    You shouldn't date co-workers as it might interfere with business.

    You shouldn't date customers as it might interfere with business.

    Shouldn't meet people online, you never know if you can trust them.

    Get a date a bar gets older after 25, long term relationship it isn't.

    That leaves what? Church (for the religious), a few sports (where it's mixed groups) Or some additions group or something.

    If anybody actually listened to all the advice the human race would have ceased to exist a few thousand years ago.

  36. Re:Here We Go Again by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 3, Funny
    I kinda thought the monitoring would be done while you were communicating with someone, not while listening to muzak. I wonder how many times they have heard me say 'If you are so concerned about your customer, don't make me wait on hold' or perhaps 'Thanks for my patience? Do I have a f'in choice?'

    Or worse: how many times they caught you humming along to the muzak. Next time they'll sick the RIAA onto you for this illegal public performance of copyrighted work!

  37. Saw this happen second hand once at a job site by jcostantino · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I worked for a company many years ago and we had a job at a large local company. The (jackass) guy who was responsible for the work was talking to the owner of the company and saying some really shitty things about the customer ("I've got them eating out of my hand" and other things) while making an OUTGOING call. Needless to say, the owner of the company was FURIOUS and booted the guy off the premises and told my boss to never let him come back out to the job site. We almost lost the job because some cocky jerkoff was shooting his mouth off about the customer.

    That action led to this particular guy's firing. He was a typical arrogant MCSE who's shit was ice cream and nobody could tell him anything he didn't already know - unless it was wrong and he would certainly let them know without hesitation.

    --
    Reviews with a twist! http://www.sardonicbastard.com
  38. This is to protect THEIR buts by RicJohnson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    They might not be monitoring the call right when you call, but you can bet they keep every recording just in case they want to have their lawyers come after you.
    I always thought we should put in a law that ASKS for explicit permision before they are allowed to record you.
    As soon as a real person gets on the phone, I always tell them they do NOT have my permission to record me, and ask that they stop or give me a number to call where they do not record. You would be surprised how many companies do NOT have a procedure to not record.

  39. Problem is that YOU can't recorde THEM by eatscience · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Problem is that YOU can't recorde THEM.

    Trust me; i've tried. Trying to iron out problems in billing for my DSL service, i found that the closer i got to getting my problem solved, the more likely it was that i would get forwarded on to somebody else, forcing me to start from scratch. After talking to a handfull o them, it had been agreed by one or the other person that each disputed part of the bill had been as a result of their error. But nobody was willing to clear all of them. Were i to have a recording of previous people i had spoken to, i would have been able to clear the whole thing up.

    Promises are made just to get you off the line, then simply broken. If the consumer doesn't have the right to record the call, the corporation is not accountable to what they tell the customer.

    -j

  40. I can't help it if they are funny by croFrog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I use to work at a call center, and the funny calls where passed around the office and played for everyones enjoyment. And you really do here all sorts of crap, when I use to place people on "hold" when working on my computer I would just use the mute button, the best is when they say how much they hate your company or ask how much the competion was again, even though you are solving there problem. I had one of call me some choice words, I just un muted and said how all that was very interesting, and how I didn't know I liked to yeah to fuck goats. Good times.

  41. Re:You can often opt-out by TFloore · · Score: 2, Interesting
    They are legally bound to warn you that you may be monitored or recorded however
    Kinda.

    This varies state-by-state. Some states are One-Party Notify, some states are Two-Party Notify.

    Generally, the legal limitation is on the party doing the recording, not explicitly either the calling or called party. No, I don't know if this is a limit based on where the company is incorporated, or where the phone support personnel are located. 3rd party and Offshore phone support probably make this all kinds of complicated.

    This makes for some fun little interactions. For instance, when Maryland (a 2-party notify state) cops want to record someone they are calling on the phone, they drive over the state line into Virginia (a 1-party notify state), make their phone call, record it without notifying the call recipient, and have a legal recording of a phone call that they could not have made in the state whose laws they are enforcing.

    Of course, IANAL, and this is not legal advice. Just be aware.
    --
    This is my sig. There are many like it but this one is... Oops. Frank, I've got your sig again! Where's mine?
  42. Re:While on hold by JimBobJoe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I make it a point to curse the company, the big shots, their kinfolks, pets and homelands, all the children they may ever have and their children, etc...

    Which often achieves little. The vast majority of the time we CSRs have no way of actually recording down complaints or even suggestions. (If you care enough, write a snail mail letter to the head of the company.)

    Can you get your way by getting angry with the CSR? Sometimes, especially if they are new. Overall, however, I would say that you catch more flies with honey. (What may appear as you attacking the company may put the anonymous CSR unnaturally on the defensive, even though its the CSR who isn't being attacked, and wouldn't give a rat's ass about the company otherwise. )

    If you choose the anger route, I would recommend slowly increasing your irritation, and then backing off with a manager. (Also keep in mind that you can't annoy the CSR too much...often the CSR will introduce the problem to the supervisor, and it doesn't help your cause that that introduction is coming from their agitated point of view and not yours. If they are a trusted CSR the supervisor may have made up their mind even before they hear what you have to say.)

    I can't tell you how many times I've seen a supervisor get off the phone call with a customer and say something like "I would have been happy to help them had they not been such a bitch about it..."

  43. Re:Advice for calling Tech Support/Customer Servic by CmdrGravy · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If I hadn't already posted I would have modded up that up because it's absolutley correct.

    I have worked in various kinds of tech support for 6 years and it's just simple human nature; if people are nice to you - polite and helpful you are much more likely to be the same with them.

    Whenever anyone in the office got a call from a particulary abusive, annoying or arrogant customer they would make sure everyone got the name so regular callers did get very definite widespread reputations.

    People who were constantly annoying got a pretty awful service from us since no one saw any reason to help those people whilst people who were polite and helpful would have everyone going out of their way to be helpful to them - they could even have the odd tantrum but we'd understand because usually they would apologise afterwards - unlike the assholes.

    Just remember it costs you nothing to be polite to people and you will always be able to find out a lot more about what is happening with your query if you are polite than if you spend your time cursing the person you are talking to, their company and life in general.

  44. Dell experiment by ShipiboConibo · · Score: 3, Funny

    About five years ago when I got my Dell laptop, I noticed that if I blew in to the phone it seemed that my hold time was greatly shortened. Blowing in the phone seemed to overdrive the audio into anoying distortion. I came to the conclusion that either a) someone is hearing this, or b) they have some sort of system that tries to gage how upset a person is by autio levels on hold (possibly more complex even, as I tried cursing at teh hold music several times with mixed results).
    This wasn't a once or twice thing, I probably called tech support 100 times while my laptop was under warranty for 4 years. I was very rough on it and finagled a warranty repair for everything I did to it. I ended up with almost 10K in repairs on a $3500 laptop, and at one point got a whole new laptop for a fried mobo with cracked plastic :-)

    All these techniques stopped working when dell switched to Indian support near the end of my warranty. Last thing I called in for was more cracked plastic... the nice, yet clueless Indian man suggested I check my hard drive for errors and possibly have it replaced... That said, no more Dells for me!

    --
    "It seems that when people become desperate they consult the gods, and when the gods become desperate they tell lies." -
  45. I tried... by raehl · · Score: 3, Funny

    I tried, but my number is always busy.

    --
    paintball
  46. I worked for Microsoft & HP by Ridgelift · · Score: 2, Informative

    I worked for a large call center that did support calls for both Microsoft and Hewlett-Packard (different support contracts, same building). As part of our training, we heard several phone calls that were recorded from previous agents to teach lessons on how to handle extreme situations. It was chilling to listen to domestic disputes.

    There's also the practice of "jacking in", where an agent allows a trainee or a supervisor to hook a headset into the agents phone and listen in to the call. During my stay with the company, it was very routine for agents to be on a call, press mute, and talk about the customer without them being able to listen.

    Call centers are a tough, tough job. They have a high turn-around because of the stress. If you get angry with a support agent, chances are they will hit the record button on the phone so they can keep a record of your call should there be a need to follow up a complaint.

    Bottom line: be polite, be patient. Support techs are just people. If you're rude, then chances are you'll be laughed at or mocked behind your back.

    --
    Ruby on Rails Screencast
  47. US Fed is 1 party consent by redelm · · Score: 2, Interesting
    IANAL, but recording anyone (phone/person) is usually legal if _one_ party consents. Only a few states (including CA) require two party consent. Interstate calls are governed by US Federal law, which is one party consent. It's not perfectly clear if a Californian can record a call to Texas, but the Texan sure can.

    Notifying someone is mostly a courtesy, but can be used to imply consent.