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Programming Until Retirement?
DataDragon asks: "Here's the situation- I'm a now 30something computer programmer in Silicon Valley working for one of the local billion+ dollar tech companies. I'm unhappy with my present job, but am thankful that I've got one. Although I pride myself on having written over a million lines of code in my career, with nearly 15 commercial software products under my belt (8 of them were my own concepts from start-to-finish). I've had carpal tunnel for 6 years now, my skillset looks like it came from a 3 year old magazine, and I didn't make good on stock options. Since settling down in a quiet place somewhere and having a family sounds like a great idea to myself and my bride-to-be, I was wondering: instead of all the buzz I always get like Google's 'Do you <insert technology task> in your sleep?' job opportunities I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?"
You have now outlasted your usefulness to the state. Please report to your nearest execution chamber.
Switch to dvorak!
Being a programmer, you probably want one of the layouts tweaked for programming (that put braces and stuff in easy locations).
Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
We've got a runner!
Comment removed based on user account deletion
...Just gotta move to India
Get your carpal tunnel treated!
You really don't want to damage your wrists. if you are a programmer.
All of the software shops I've worked at or been involved with NEED a person in the role you seek, but none of them wants to pay the salary requisite to get a skilled veteran.
I wish you luck.
My company writes a specific software app for the banking industry. There isn't a single programmer under 30, few (other than the boss) works more than 45 hours a week, and most have been there 5 years or more.
It's not all that interesting, but it's a decent job. Just don't expect the megabucks.
jred
I'm not a mechanic but I play one in my garage...
Have you considered starting your own company? Since you seem to be capable and understand that a good employee is vital to a company's overall success beyond each quarter, maybe you could do well if you did things yourself. You also may have a nest egg if you chose to sell the company as you retire.
I think more people should consider starting their own company since small businesses have always been a staple of the American economy.
That's just my 2 cents, so take it with a grain of sand I guess.
If you like programming, keep doing it as long as you can. If you don't like programming, stop immediately and do something you like. This applies to any field. On your deathbed you are not going to be worried about stock options, you are going to wonder if you wasted your life or not.
As people grow wiser and more experienced inside a company, they tend to move upwards towards mentoring/management-like activities.
Probably because their experience with coding makes them more suitable for taking decisions regarding project lead and also more suitable for giving answers to questions (in order to avoid repeating the same mistakes over and over again).
I've noticed that most companies do this - use their internal pool of experienced programmers in order to push them into mentoring/management positions, instead of throwing the management openings at the public and accepting CVs for it.
On one side, it's a good practice, because only those with previous experience inside the company will have access to those places, and by the time they get there they should know the process inside out. On the other hand, not throwing those positions towards the public makes them lose a full range of potential employees.
Go to some small businesses that have maybe less than 50 people or so and get them to be more productive by employing all kinds of tech(lease them a server, get some SMS going to their cell phones, smooth out their email, voicemail, etc). It has worked for me. You have to do a lot of different things besides programming, but that is OK. You get to know some people and if you are any good at all, they will love you. You won't make as much as at some billion dollar company and there is some on-callness to it, but you can live.
Larger companies generally have more process and more overhead, but they also have more people who are in it for the long haul, and thus aren't working overtime every day.
There's always periods where you need to put in time, but in a small company those are the norm; in a big company (I'm talking 10k or more people here) it's more normal to work something close to a regular work day.
Think IBM, government, HP, Kodak..
--
http://www.stevex.org/longtail
You might consider looking for a job at a college or University - the smaller ones in the suburbs often offer a very nice family atmosphere and stable job. I think you would be surprised how far your experience would go in a situation like that; they need people who have skills and who can also communicate well with non-techies - i.e., students and the people who deal with the students. If you have database and/or PHP/ASP skills, you could try to join a web-development team for an academic institution; if not, you could learn them or find another software/technology-based position to apply for at one. I highly recommend it, though - if not for the atmosphere and stability, but also for the free courses. Many institutions allow employees to take courses for free, something that's definitely worth looking into if you're interested in learning. Good luck!
http://www.tenjou.net/
In short, your looking for work and you thought
Well that's okay, good luck to you.
By the way, I'm very self-motivated, a genius in C++ and Python and I could probably squeeze the odd small or non-urgent project in....
Aide-toi, le Ciel t'aidera - Jeanne D'Arc.
It's impossible to find that honest open warmth where companies have employees whose primary task is the result of the company being large, i.e. a beauracracy.
Conversely, many smaller companies are not as capitalized as larger companies so the long-term propects may not be as bright. Then again, most of the people I know working at smaller companies have been there longer than many folks I know working at big companies.
You might want to consider starting your own company with others who share your vision.
-_-
Logistical offices that do things like accounting, customer service, tech support, call centers, etc are the ones that want someone that will put in an honest days work, be friendly, professional, etc. They'll probably rarely expect you to work long hours, and probably not expect any kind of creativity from you.
Programming jobs, however, are by their very nature, rushed. The company wants the product out the door as fast as it can, so it can start harvesting the rewards. The problem is, they don't want an honest day's work. They want you to work a month at 12 hour days and then either forget about you, or start the 'honest days work' thing while looking for a way to fire you for the next set of gung-ho youngsters willing to forego their lives for 'experience' and 'adequate compensation'
Job? I don't have time to get a job! Who will sit around and bitch about being broke and unemployed then?
I'm a 30something programmer myself. I have worked for several tech companies in NorCal (startups that went nowhere), and after an 8 month stint of being unemployed I landed a programming job (mostly Perl no less) at a local CSU. Now I'm happy, I get lots of "perks" (Conferences, Training, etc.), and nobody busts my nuts when I "only" work 8 hours a day. I have good benefits, a good retirement & job stability (unless Schwartznegger screws me), and I work with good people who appreciate my work.
I've spent the past 7+ years working for a relatively small not-profit company and have had a great experience, as well as a lot of impact on the direction of technology in the company. This positive experience seems to be a thread through everyone in my department.
I'd definately recomend non-profit, or local government organizations as a good place for programmers to spend many years. You won't become a millionaire overnight, but it's good pay, good promotion, working with people you get to know for YEARS, reasonable hours, and probably much lower stress compared to private development houses.
Get a doctoral degree, find an academic institution that will fund your work, get tenure and then live out the rest of your life in peace and happiness, all the while contributing your knowledge and wisdom to the next generation of engineers.
+1 Insightful, -1 Troll. What can I say, I'm an Insightful Troll.
I'm not sure if you're refering to your own desire to find a company that you can happily work for till retirement, or asking if there are companies like that out there.
.com era, but I'm sure if you look hard and study well, you'll find someone who'd be as happy to keep you around till a ripe old age (again, DO research any company you're going to sign on with, talk to people who work there, read up on them a ton) and let your program your ass off till retirement.
There are plenty of companies that'd love to have an employee with as much experience as you've mentioned, and in addition, someone with the desire to work for the long term. Projects from start to finish are one thing, but people aren't sticking around for the long haul like they did generations back.
With outsourcing and mega job opportunities still pumping stock options and elevated pay (check Monster, there ARE companies actively seeking engineers and programmers, offering hugh pay incentives) people are jumping ship when it suits them, even if there seems to be a dearth of jobs for those of us w/o them.
Company mentalities are different in this post
Get a state or federal gov job. They don't merge or get bought out. They are much more secure than private sector tech jobs. Jobs at colleges can be that way too. But it depends some tech jobs at colleges can have there funding pulled out from under them. The programming most likely won't be exciting but your looking for stability more than cutting edge tech.
Typing does not require accurate position of the fingers - so long as you hit the "a" key, it doesn't much matter how you hit it.. Over time the brain doesnt bother to take care over which nerves are activated/sensed, because it appears not to matter. Unfortunately, it does!
The consequence of this careless activation of "roughly the right nerves" is what is called Carpal Tunnel.
The cure is to relearn accurate use of the nerves. One of the best ways of doing this has been found to be to learn hand embroidery! Old fashoned watchmaking (or repairling iPods/mobile phones) would probably work too. Most exercise or sports, which require force but little accuracy, will make matters rapidly worse.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
Haven't found anything like that in Silicon Valley. In the 1980's and earlier, computer programming used to be that kind of job. But the dot.com era changed the field and deathmarches are now common rather than a sign of poor project management or cluess PHBs. Most of the jobs I've seen here are developing software that will eventually be a project. I ended up becoming a Sysadmin and eventually leaving IT altogether.
If you're having health problems due to typing, I'd look at changing your lifestyle--either how you work (ergonomics) or what you do. All that typing is a form of exercise and eventually athletes and dancers have to retire and "do something else". That's up to you to decide.
Start a small company. This company will buy product in bulk and sell it to individual consumers.
I would suggest crack as your first product.
I remember talking to an older engineer back in 2001 (when tech was crumbling and people were losing jobs) at the giant tech company I was working at. His advice was that these cycles are normal (I think he said he had been through 3 or 4? like the most recent, he was pushing 60) and if you want to remain in the tech industry you need to get used to basically relearning and retooling and regular layoffs. So unless you want to learn a new skill or language every 5 years or don't like dealing with industry ebb and flow then maybe you should look at going back and getting and MBA, there is always room for more managment ;)
"By the way, I'm very self-motivated, a genius in C++ and Python"
-1 Arrogant.
You must read and have the spare machine to play with. You must at least browse Dr. Dobbs.
This is why my resume is upto date after 22 years.
Now that the y2k issues are dea and gone, Cobol programmers now most commonly say, "So that was a Non fat decaf latte....?"
Can't turn into the guy that in 1993 walked out of a presentation I gave on Visual Basic because he did not know what a mouse was. This is a true story.
I work for one... Workforce software (http://www.workforcesoftware.com). They make time and attendance software for large companies (1000+). They expect people to work hard and know how to program (99% of the people who apply can't write code), but they treat their employees well and value loyal people.
On a sidenote, you could try therapeutic massage. That and a split keyboard eliminated my tendonitis (I thought it was carpal tunnel).
-=Lothsahn=-
For Fuck's Sake!
Yes, but not likely in programming/IT/CS. Why not?
College kids type fast, they know their stuff from programming classes, there's plenty of them, and they work for ramen noodles.
Have you considered trying to go to a community college and re-uping your skill set, possibly in a different (but somewhat related) field? Before I transfered, my community college was training dual IT/Medical Technology majors to work with medical equipment.
If you're sick and tired of programming, you might try something like social services or nursing. Those fields have appreciated; albeit underpaid, people that work until retiriment and beyond. Those fields value good, dedicated people with experience more than they ever will the college kid looking for more in the pizza budget.
My advice? If you're tired of programming, look at what else you're good at (get ahold of the STRONG interest inventory), try for some financial aid through the federal government, and get the heck out of dodge. Life's too short to be miserable with hurting wrists.
Easy - federal government.
(1) 40 hour work week, no more.
(2) One of the best health benefits package for you and your family you can find.
(3) Pay that's not outrageous, either high or low.
(4) Stability and job security.
(5) Conferences and training galore (if you want, not required if you don't).
(6) Pay raise every year (cost of living increase).
I could go on but I trust I don't have to. I've been with the federal government for years and I'm not going anywhere. I work 40 a week and I go home. I set my own hours. I love my job.
Think about it.
-- Karma whore? You betcha. --
Nobody seems to be interested in career employees these days. The few people that are career seem to have settled into their jobs over many years and have stability due to politics rather than skill or even need. If you're looking for stability, you might try to look for a job in a city, state or national government. They're about the only ones that expect to be around later without mergers, buy outs or out sourcing(well, they do look at that but not as much as normal companies).
For your decreased skill set, wrist problems, and unhappyness with your job, I'd say you need to look at management. You're experienced and if you're a people person, you could take a few Project Management classes to impress the suits, brush up on your power point and become one of those people that go to meetings all day so the people who do the actual work don't have to.
"MIT betrayed all of its basic principles."
>>>> I've read about, are there any employers that would rather have a person who: wants to put in an honest day's work; get to know the job and the people well; and a desire to ultimately be a mentor for the company processes, instead of a here-today-gone-tomorrow programmer, who is interested in actually working there until retirement age?
You find a place like that let me know. I will be out of work in a couple weeks. The company I work for lost the contract and new company is only keeping the young/cheap. The old company is using this opportunity to clear out some people since they are moving a lot of work overseas.
That is what you will be fighting. Outsourcing and young people trying to get a start in the industry willing to work around the clock for half your salary.
Now some companies instead of going out of the country are moving to state with heavy unemployment and low taxes and opening up shop. But others like the big three letter company I work for are opening up center in Brazil to cut costs.
Just look at the marketing coming from the big computer companies they are trying to bring back the glass house approach to computing. Let them supply the computers, SA's, developers, and so on . That way you only play for these skills as you need them, why hire them long term.
So you have a good job hang on to it. If you're as good as you say let other companies know you're looking. Let them recruit you, then you will get a deal worth accepting.
Rule #1: Don't get into anything you don't enjoy because you think it will make you rich.
As for your b-school suggestions, that's my background: BS in accounting, MS in management. Believe me, Big-4 (is it 4 these days) accounting is a bigger death march than any development job in the valley, with worse pay, more stress, and a phenominal burn out rate. Typically 80% of the new hires will be gone in two years, out of public accounting. They take their CPA certificates and the requisite two years experience and head off to a life of drudgery in some corporate accounting office. Those that skip the big-4 route head directly to that grind.
Personally, I love having the b-school background and experience. I've been a consultant and OO developer the last 8 years and understanding how the suits work makes me all the more valuable. While some doors are closed due to my lack of an engineering background, many others are open thanks to the business experience.
At the bottom of the endless pile of paper work which characterizes all regulation lies a gun.
Alan Greenspan
The short answer to your question is, "yes." There are companies that want experience, leadership, and mentoring skills. There are companies that want experienced leadership to guide and direct younger minds (and younger wrists) in developing software. And no, Virginia, those companies are not all moving their jobs to India.
Focus on the technology, or on the business?
Programmers I've worked with over the years have tended to follow one of two tracks: focus on the technology, or focus on the business. If you focus on the technology, your skills are portable: the risk you take, however, is that your portable skills may be supplanted by a newer, better-marketed technology. (Case in point: Powersoft's PowerBuilder, which was all the rage ten years ago, and has all but disappeared from the marketplace.) To adopt a focus-on-the-technology view, you're committing to a permanent learning curve--and to constantly having to evaluate which of the new technologies are most likely to be worth pursuing.
Your question sounds to me like you're looking for the other tack: focusing on the business. In that role you're still working with the technology--but you're focused on how to improve the business. You're more technologically-agnostic: you know more about the specifics of the business than any particular tool.
The key: find a company that views you as an asset, not a cost
If you've been doing contract work, you're focused on the technology. And you've probably worked for a number of companies that view you as just another piece of meat to put in front of a computer to type code. To them, you're an expense. Far, far better is to find a company that views information technology as an asset--that says "if we do what we do better, smarter, faster, we have a competitive advantage." Those companies will, in turn, challenge you to do more, learn more, and offer more.
Where I work...
I work in Engineering, not in Information Systems--developing new products. The company very definitely wants me to do more, much more, of what I'm doing. From an accounting standpoint my work is booked as a depreciable asset--not as a line item on the expense ledger. I'm 46--while I still do quite a bit of coding (and I'm at work now, coding Transact-SQL for a big project), a lot of my day is spent teaching, coaching, and encouraging young programmers.
Want a gig like mine?
Some thoughts:
Is this just a young man's game?
I think you'll see
I work for local (County) government. Cities, Counties, School Districts and the State are always looking for just that.
The federal government works on amazingly diverse and exciting software development projects, and they are looking for people EXACTLY like you. You can make a lot more than normal GS-payscale people, and get to work on incredibly interesting and unique projects. I'm sure that Military and intelligence agencies do some REALLY neat stuff, and you could be a part of it. You also get a real feeling of serving your country. The benefits are REALLY good, and if you plan right, you can make out quite well in retirement.
People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.
Well, as you put in your question, I guess this is every programmer's dream: to get a stable, 40 hours week programming job surrounded with people that you know and care about. But I think that programming is not the kind of job that one can do untill retirement - it is a highly-demanding job that requires up-to-date knowledge and brings higher levels of stress than other jobs.
So, I think that after certain age every coder gets tired of keeping up with the technology and stress, and this is the time when they either get pushed into a managerial role, or stay coders till retirement, maintaining legacy applications in legacy languages.
In a way, programming is like soccer: you play it till you reach the age when you no longer can keep up with the younger (or leave it early because of a bad injury, for example). And then you train the younger until retirement.
It is certainly not a something than man can do for all of his life.
Go Defense contracting. Many of the large companies Boeing, Lockheed, Ratheyon, Northrup, all have long term needs to for programmers, and many of them work very interesting jobs. Althought if you are a person that likes to talk about what you are doing with yoru spouse, it probably isn't the best place. Unlike many industries defense programming jobs CANNOT be shipped over seas.
If you are looking for a job change, I know Lockheed is down in San Diago.
I have used and learned many new technologies over that time. Besides that, I have gained a lot of non-IT knowledge in those industries. I know of a number of other people who eventually tired of programming and IT in general and moved into the business side of the industry they were doing IT work in. It can be a very easy move as having an IT background can be a valuable asset over and above the business knowledge aquired.
I believe that most companies think that they can hire any codemonkey out of college to do what you can do (but their's will need massive rework/refactoring) in 10x the time, even though they're only 1/2 to 1/3 the cost. Plus the older you get, the more time you're going to want to spend with your family (you did manange to pick up one of those along the way, didn't you?), and then there's other outside interests, like neighborhood associations and other civic and church (or Cthulhu) functions. Oh yeah, the older you get, the more time you're going to need for medical visits, and there's a health club in your future where you'll injure yourself once or twice a year.
And do you really want to continue working in software? Especially with the hours and working conditions? You have to face it, one cannot easily estimate how long software takes to get done (and I'll address that later), and since developers are some of the most optimistic people in the world, you'll invariably end up staying late about 1/3 to 1/2 of the time, especially if a PHB takes everybody's estimates and cuts them by a third, 'cuz he knows you can do it!
Unless you can find yourself one of the few jobs open at a big software shop like IBM where they have people that hopefully do a good job at estimating effort (and I had a buddy there that they didn't, and he had to essentially work 1 year of 60-hour weeks), you'll end up working at a small coding shop where they'll have to make optimistic projections to get the contract, and hence you're working late... again! And if you work at a place where software isn't the main product, you'll have clueless PHBs that are unable to figure out that software indeed *does* take that long to do, and why aren't you coding yet??!?
The folks that I know that are older and are making it in software have made names for themselves, have written one or more books, attend OOPSLA where they're presenters or panelists, or are otherwise looked upon as gurus. The rest of them are scraping along, waiting for the axe to fall... again. The true failures I know are those that don't want to update their skill set, or have truly vertical knowledge and are unable/unwilling to move to where their market is.
Unless a young person I know has true passion for software, and is willing to do the Software Engineering thing, which they used to not emphasize enough in undergrad, I tell them to find something else to do since unless they trip on the pot o' gold (and I know a guy that's been doing MS Access programming from home on a government contract for the past 10+ years that has been pulling in six figures the entire time), they're not going to make it on less-than-passion.
Now, where do you go from here? Hmmm... that's a really good question. As soon as I know, I'll let you in on it.
DT
Is this thing on? Hello?
I doubt if they offer the kind of salary you are used to, we live in West Virginia after all, but my company is a very tight-knit place with very low turnover, In fact of the 10 or so software engineers currently employeed I could see at least five staying here until they retire. Myself included.
The ownership/management is great to work with. The comraderie is unsurpassed. And the work is varied so we don't get bored too often.
you can check out our ugly webpage at http://www.sbcs.com
The problem with working somewhere until retirement is that companies and employees are becoming less loyal to each other. Companies will cut staff to save a few bucks and employees will often bolt to wherever they can find the biggest paycheck. Certainly there are a few places where an employee could catch on with a company and work until retirement, but they're becoming harder to find.
I've had fairly good experience with SMB's that write their own applications or need to customize packaged software. In my experience these have been less deadline-driven environments with less stress as a result. The difference may be that for these businesses, software is a business enabler, rather than the business itself.
The problem with software development as a long term career is that after a certain point, experience isn't really worth much -- after about 5 years in a particular technology, you'll be about as good as you'll ever be. Given this, it makes little business sense to hire a 40 year old with 25+ years of experience for $100+K when you can get a 26 year old who is just as good, possibly even better, for $60K.
In other words, don't expect to be a pure code monkey for 20 years. Yes, it can happen - but thats the exception rather than the norm. You need to find a way to provide value from your experience - value that the business is prepared to pay for. There are various ways of doing this, typically they involve moving into management.
By the way: if you expect to be mentoring, then you'd better get cracking on that "3 year old" skillset of yours. Nobody would want a mentor that doesn't bother to keep up with their field.
I'm older than you. (57) I've been retired from this industry for a while now. This trend has been ongoing for years, but it seems to be accelerating of late.
Being a programmer has become a lot like being a musician or artist. It's very hard to make a normal living at these crafts. Many musicians have day jobs that pay the bills, and practice their craft on their own time, for the joy of it. This is analogous to programmers writing Free Software in their 'spare time'.
Big business in America seems to have given up on the traditional industrial model of employing workers, turning out products, making a profit on sales. The new model seems to be more like a very complex pump-and-dump stock scam. It's all about profiting from the sale of the company itself, products and workers are more for show.
This will, ultimately, destroy our economy and the country itself. You are experiencing a small part of this right now. It will get worse before the worker/consumers wake up and revolt.
Try to get a job at Northrup Grumman, General Dynamics, Boeing or Lockheed. There's no indication that the economy will become less militarized, so these are places where you have a chance of staying there until retirement. Not only that, these places are process intensive because the government and military branches require them to document, measure report the effectiveness of their process.
These companies need people with the ability to understand software engineers, know how to work, compromise and ease them into these new software processes. You can be a technical manager, a software quality assurance guy or part of the always omnious SEPG (the software gestapo).
These companies also spend 100's of millions of process. So they are opportunities.
Here is some advice. Even though there are many ads online for jobs at these kind of companies, your best way to get in is with someone already at one of these places.
How can you meet these people? Go to embedded conferences and software process conferences. To make yourself more marketable, learn PSP/TSP, learn Six Sigma; and get certificates. Knowing is great for the interview, but either pay the money or get your current employer to pay for this.
Also, try to make yourself savy with Integrity, VX Works, Linux and XML. Try to gather up what you can on at least 1 of the OS's, and for sure understand XML and know which programming tools are out there you can use. Why? XML is the golden cow of file handling right now. (I think its over done but you will find out why later in this msg.)
These companies are primes, so only the really big contracts, like 10-15 year contracts go to them. But the government expects them to sub-contract a lot of the work. Getting in with a small company that is currently working on the big contracts out there is a good way of finding work at the primes. Most subs will send their people to process and software training at the primes site, its a great opportunity to make contacts and build your network.
Granted most people don't like the idea of working for a defense company. I'm a progressive, and yes, these places house a majority of fact-ignorant republicans. It might be lame, but that was something I thoguht a lot about, but I got over it quickly. These places also keep a lot of ancient, useless and lazy dinosaurs. If you destroy a million dollar project, what usually happens is that you're put on another million dollar project. So if you're a great software engineer, the sky is the limit for you.
http://www.orionhealth.com/careers.htm
See you at the interview!
dominionrd.blogspot.com - Restaurants on
I've worked commercial and academic. All of those were fun and interesting, but some (mostly commercial) demanded long hours. That late-night work never resulted in the promised recognition.
Now I work for a govt. research lab. Although money is sometimes tight, and the paperwork is sometimes a pain in the butt, there are some really nice things about it:
- The pay is good (not mind blowing, but quite good).
- I work with some of the smartest people I've ever worked with. Almost everyone has a master's degree, and a good fraction have their PhDs.
- The job stability is pretty good (although no guarantees)
- Because of the stability, I can feel free to dedicate my efforts to learning the problem domain, rather than staying abreast of each new glitzy programming language. I.e., I can focus on my current job rather than always focusing on being sellable in case I'm laid off.
- If you land the right job, you get the sense that you're work actually goes to help people, rather than just line the pockets of some rich sociopathological CEO. That's a nice feeling.
Maybe the most important thing is the regular hours. If you're planning on having kids, it's great for them to expect you home every night for dinner and for you to actually show up. Kids thrive with that kind of stability and with your actually being around when they're awake. They only have one childhood - don't miss it. A slightly more exciting career isn't worth it.
Except they're not any more, so I really need to get out. But how do I go about that? I can't just pick up and move somewhere and hope I'll find work. And the labor market is ovesupplied everywhere, so nobody will even look at a nonlocal resume. Even if you make it clear that you'll pay your own relocation.
Maybe this is a subject for a fresh Ask Slashdot!
Interesting read and I can't agree more (speaking as a mid-40's year old former software engineer then manager). It's definitely hard to devote the necessary time in IT toward keeping up with changing technology and business practices while simultaneously devoting more time to family and community activities.
No man's an island, unless he's had too much to drink and wets the bed.
I've just started my own hitman business, and could really use the work! Right now, my equipment is limited to a fairly sharp pencil, but I'm quite good with it!
I think it depends on what sort of company you are with
I joined my current employer straight from university in 1972. At the time it was a small software development company, writing bespoke software for customers on a paid basis. They key to a long career in the same firm is to continue to re-invent yourself as the experience kicks in, and the industry changes, and to hope that the company continues to be a success and grows. For it is only the ability to take on more responsibility that allows the company to pay you more for the experience you have gained.
For the first 6 months I didn't really do any programming, more learning how the business worked (how to write proposals to customers! - when I started I didn't even know what a proposal was). Then I got an assignment at the space centre in Germany for a year, and when I came back I was seen as someone with a little experience. So then, not only did I program (I became the expert in RSX-11M on PDP 11s) but I was also expected to supervise others.
From there - right until the late 1980s, I combined technical work (not just programming, but as I got more experience I designed more and more complex systems) with project and eventually line management. The more senior I got, the less the technical work involved detail and the more it became strategic.
Some times this would combine with management responsibility for people (and profit) at other times I was setting technical policy for senior management (I was responsibly for getting networked PCs on to peoples desks in those early days of the PC).
At the beginning of the 1990s, the ability for our company to win projects in which you wrote a bespoke solution for a customer started to decline, and the new business was more about buying in products and configuring them to meet business requirements. So again, my career and my skill sets had to migrate. This time, it was more about understanding the business needs of the customer and being to select and propose the correct solution. So now my career became a combination of consultancy and pre-sales support. I still had to have a technical knowledge of what was possible, but it was now a long time since I had written serious amounts of software as a programmer, and the knowledge of how business operates and how IT can help it became more important.
And the type of business is changing again, and as it does so does my role. Business Process Outsourcing (possibly offshore) is where the real volume of business is now. My role therfore is to identify, on a worldwide basis, and in my specific business oriented field (IT necessary to allow competitive electricity and gas markets to work), where the market is spending money, and how our company can bring its experience to win business in the BPO area. I am then called upon to both present these issues to potential customers to help win business, but to also present in public forums (conferences, magazine articles etc) these ideas and why they are sound.
Each of these steps has been a step away from pure programming. Some steps have been scary (its very nerve racking having to present in public in front of a large audience), but ultimately the fact that you have met the challenge is very rewarding. And so today, I am far removed from the original career. But I am still with the same company, in the IT business, its just that I have changed with the times.
I have described my career, and I am not alone in the company of having people who have been around for a long time and continue to do (to a greater or lesser degree) technical (from an IT sense) sort of work (there are even more who have migrated into pure management). I don't think any of them do serious programming (although sometimes someone will write a small proof of concept or a quick demonstration for a customer), but somehow there careers have migrated to being the "liaison" between the business world and the technical world. I think all of them would say that its a rewarding type of role.
Wow, put me down as another "You only pay $10k?" asker.
For comparison, let's look at the situation for a reasonably qualified programmer with five years' experience in a decent company here in the UK -- probably someone in a pretty good developer position on a project, or starting to move into team leader roles. Typical salary for such a person might be in the 35-45k UKP region (currently around 65-85k USD).
Our income tax system works in stages. On salaries up to the mid-30s, you're paying about 33% altogether in income tax and National Insurance, less a small allowance that is untaxed or taxed at lower rates. Above the mid-30s, the NI drops out but the income tax goes up to 40% at approximately the same place. That means that just in income tax and NI, someone on 35k UKP gives back around 10k (nearly 20k USD), and someone on 45k UKP pays around 13k UKP (well over 25k USD).
Most purchases then carry a 17.5% "Value Added Tax" on them, though in fairness a lot of basic necessities are exempted from this. And of course, about 105% of the purchase price of fuel is tax. ;-) Then there are a few other significant taxes, covering things like profits from selling expensive goods or shares that have increased in value significantly since they were bought.
I've seen figures suggesting that an average person over here ultimately pays around 75% of their total income to the government through taxes. That seems a bit steep to me intuitively, but I could easily believe well over 60%. Sure, we get some things paid for by the government in return, though not as much as many people seem to think: we do have the National Health Service, which is supported through those NI payments, but my ashthmatic SO still has to buy her own inhalers, for example.
Anyway, if you had a combined income of 130k and were only paying 10k tax on it, you were amazingly lucky compared to many people. Even if that was only the income tax, I'd imagine you were still a lot better off than most at an effective income tax rate well under 10%.
Not that any of that detracts from your story or is meant as any kind of reflection on you, of course. It's just an observation that your zenith year income was very, very good.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
Unlike the US we have a shortage skill people so finding work is not too hard. You will be paid about half what you do in the US but the cost living is a lot cheaper too. We may not be 'the land of the free' but once you leave your lawyers and guns behind I think you will find we have more real freedom here and less stress. Lifes not perfect here but there is a reason they call it's 'gods own', can't think of anywhere else to live long term.
There is a lot of cutting edge development done here, I work for Navman for example. Dispite our our high profile worldwide we are a New Zealand based company and do most of our development in Auckland. We also have development centers in Christchurch and Wellington because of the shortage of engineers in Auckland. Your biggest problem with working here is the local equivalant of the green card system.
Others have said it already in this thread, but I'll repeat that you might be happier leaving your high tech company and doing internal software development for some other kind of estabilshed company, university, or government. You're likely (though not guaranteed!) to work a bit fewer hours, and it's possible to stick around for a while.
The trick will be to make yourself not just a techie in that company. You'll need to learn their business, and after several years your acquired domain knowledge will be extremely valuable to the company. Business knowledge seems to have an inverse relationship to technical knowledge that way--being around a long time accumulates better knowledge, not just out-dated knowledge.
Programming is not a religion A hobby,job,profession,craft,art. But not a religion
The parent coward really knows what (s)he's writing about. I'd only like to add one more thing: Don't rest your hands while you type. Let your arms move around the keyboard. Your elbows can rest on the chair though.
I believe this is an all too common situation. In fact I'm in pretty much the same boat. I spent the first 15 years of my professional life as predominantly a C programmer (try to find that anymore), and a Solaris admin. My problem is that I didn't move more into the java/xml/html world. My skills as a general admin are very good but I don't have any honed specialty skills, like heavy Veritas, OpenView, Oracle. Don't get me wrong, I've worked in all those arenas but never got really deep into it, didn't have too. I kept the bosses happy, kept things running reliably and securely. But my resume lacks the Zing it needs to really noticed....
Now that the DOT bomb company I worked for is gone, along with my management job, I'm stuck in the middle. I need to improve my Oracle skills and move on.
In Summary, you have to keep up on your skills, you have to keep watching for the next wave of technical advancements and hope they are real and not just a flash in the pan.
Good luck!
You can program a whole second layer of the kinesis keyboards, activated by the keypad switch. By default, the right half of the 'board becomes a numeric keypad when the switch is active.
You can also program any key with an onboard macro.
I activate the second layer with a footswitch. While it is down, individual keystrokes activate macros: HTML macros on my left hand, C/Java macros on my right.
For example, right hand home row middle finger (K on a qwerty keyboard) types this for me:where the asterisk is the position where my insertion point is left , because I include arrow keys in the macro.
The equivalent finger on my left hand, combined with the footswitch, types:I use shift-footswitch-key to indicate "bracket the current selection with this tag", i.e. "cut, type tag pair, cursor back to the middle, paste".
I can barely describe how many keystrokes this system saves me; I almost never have to reach for punctuation and symbol keys when programming. Having the macros in hardware means they continue to work when I switch between Mac, linux, and windows via a KVM switch. It means I can use them equivalently whether I'm in bbedit or using emacs on a client's webserver over SSH.
Since the punctuation is taken care of by macros, I can use the dvorak layout to speed up all my regular typing of words and letters; switching to Dvorak allowed me to learn touchtyping for real (and the Kinesis forces it, because you can't really see the keys well enough to hunt and peck; they're hidden by your hands, and because the shape of the keyboard makes it very hard to hit the keys with the wrong finger.)
The kinesis cured my RSI in college, and has made me infinitely more productive since then. I bang out code as quickly as I can think it, rarely if ever reaching for awkward punctuation keys.
I only wish I'd bought the top model, because I run out of macro memory regularly.
Why people would be willing to pay $1500 for a new computer every two or three years for "speed", but not be willing to shell out a $300 for a keyboard that will increase their productivity while reducing injuries, and will last for five or six years, is beyond me.
Your keyboard, pointing device, and monitors are your user interfaces. They are the parts that can make or break you; compared to their effect on your computing experience, the difference between a four-year-old celeron and an opteron or PPC G5 is pitiful. I am doing development, design, writing, or websurfing fourteen hours a day, every day.
Besides, you can keep your keyboard and monitors between systems: they a long term investment.
I stole this sig from someone cleverer than me.
That's a big hit. Okay, I got Customer X's network running smoothly, but little B and baby E didn't see me that day - and I didn't see them. As a one-off, that's okay. Day-to-day, I don't see my role of father as "leave home before the kids are up, get back after they're in bed; maybe see them for a while on the weekend." That is not parenthood.
A job I was in recently is a good example - a 2h commute each way, and they said, "12h is seen as normal; 16h isn't at all unexpected." Fsck that. 12h + 4h = 16h (8h sleep and back to the job); 16 + 4h leaves me 4h to sleep!
The question is: "Do I live to work, or do I work to live?"
I work to live - my work is interesting enough - could be better. It brings in cash, and supports my *real* life - my family, my kids; if I don't spend time with my wife and kids, then what is the point?! They could live a grand life, in a huge house, driving around in grand cars, but simply fail to recognise their own father. That is not a life for them, or for me.
I have 100% admiration for single parents, but this way of life just gives the family a single-parent-family lifestyle, with a breadwinner who - technically - exists, but who is never seen. What's the point in that?
I'd rather bring in enough cash to keep the family on track, with enough time to actually spend time with them - teaching the kids, and enjoying them. Spending time with my wife is also a priority, of course - after all, that is why I married her - I love her!
Author, Shell Scripting : Expert Re
my wrists started hurting after years of using the computer.
the solutions that helped most were:
1) using a 'spring' keyboard instead of rubber membrane.
2) switch to dvorak (seven years now, and no regrets),
and repogram mouse to avoid double-clicks.
3) practice HANDWRITING, or take up a MUSICAL INSTRUMENT
like piano -- this is the single most important thing that
helped alleviate my wrist pains -- i started playing bass guitar,
and by repetitively and rhythmically using those same muscles
in a definite OTHER way --it helped to strengthen them for when
i went back to using them with a mouse. if you're not into
practicing a musical instrument (which i guarantee will be
a useful skill longer than any programming language you
may happen to learn) -- then try handwriting -- it forces
the muscles involved into definite contortions which counter
the repetitive stress of clicking.
best regards,
john.
There are places in the valley that give people the freedom to work however they want. Where I am currently, we have a very broad mix.
A lot of folks (myself included) tend to get in late and work late. Quite a few others work 9-5.
I've heard people (especially managers) say "go home, enjoy the weekend", or "isn't your wife expecting you?" quite often. Only once or twice have I heard them push to get a specific piece done in a big hurry (usually with very good reason). People do it, but because they choose to.
Of course, the company really does require self-motivated employees. Nobody ever really seems to take advantage of the system. Many places I've contracted would fall apart with a system like this.
The other thing I like is that they have both Management, and Technical advancement tracks that are fully equivalent in terms of company rank and pay. An engineer is NOT forced to go into management to advance, instead they become increasingly responsible for architectural decisions (if promoted). The engineer picks the track they are interested on their own.
plus-good, double-plus-good