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WiMax Technology Could Blanket the US?

obiwan2u writes "According to an article on WiMaxTrends, the metropolitan area wireless networking technology (MLAN) called WiMax could reach 90% of the mainland US population if about $3 billion was spent on infrastructure. The 802.16 standard specifies a max range of about 30 miles and a max speed of about 70 Mbits/sec, but typical ranges and speeds will typically be smaller. 802.16/WiMax specifies various licensed (3.5Ghz) and unlicensed (5Ghz) frequency ranges but the unlicensed ranges have Wi-Fi like transmitting power restrictions. More background on this technology can be seen at: WiMax starting to make its move and 802.16: Medium distance wireless networking that could change the world?"

249 comments

  1. What about... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    Quantum computing is slowly becoming a reality and wireless security will be useless. Wouldn't it be better to get the whole quantum entanglement thing happening?

    1. Re:What about... by Rei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think "slowly" is the key word here. I don't know about you, but I don't plan to avoid encryption for the next half century because it's theoretically possible to build some sort of computer to crack it.

      I think the "worry" here is all of the anti-RF nuts protesting this. Not that I think they could stop implementation, however, but they'll try :)

      --
      "Well, then fire it up and show me what this..." (sigh) ... "coccoon can do."
    2. Re:What about... by KeithIrwin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, no one has developed quantum algorithms which can break any encryption other than those which rely on factoring being hard. We have a quantum factoring algorithm. We don't have a quantum modular logarithm algorithm. So although RSA, Rabin, and a few others would be toast, Diffie Hellman, El Gamal, NTRU, and quite a number of other public key schemes would still be safe. And no secret key scheme I've ever seen relies on factoring, so AES, Triple-DES, and all the AES candidates would still be secure.

      As for quantum entanglement, people are working on it. It's an active field of research, but these things don't happen instantly just because someone wants them to. Sorry. What you're really doing is comparing two completely unrelated things:

      1) Long range consumer wireless data transmission. It's a technology whose primary benefit over existing technologies is that it is cheaper to deploy and more versatile. It's an immediate and pragmatic thing with real benefits which we could all be using within as soon as two or three years. It's something that real companies are looking at building real devices for right now.

      2) Quantum entanglement communication. It's a high end research idea which they aren't sure if can ever be realized. If it can, it will likely be very expensive for quite a while and hence not suitable for consumers. It is possible that we will communicate using this technology in a few decade's time, but at this point, it is not in the running for immediate deployment in any way shape or form. No real companies have the capability to build anything like this now. The companies who are looking at rolling out WiMax stuff likely don't even have anyone on staff who understand quantum entanglement, never mind anyone who could build one.

      It's sort of like your next door neighbor, a plumber, has come to you and said "Hey, I've just ordered this new car. Check out the specs on this baby. I'm really going to enjoy driving to work now." and you've said "Car? With all the automobile accidents which could happen between here and work? You should be working on building a teleporter instead."

      Keith

    3. Re:What about... by millennial · · Score: 0

      2. Quantum entanglement communication. It's a high end research idea which they aren't sure if can ever be realized.
      Not quite. Through the use of quantum teleportation, scientists are currently able to transport beams of light over several feet. This is partially due to quantum entanglement. If you used this to send morse code signals, you've got quantum entanglement communication... or, more seriously, you could use it to transmit data.

      --
      I am scientifically inaccurate.
    4. Re:What about... by millennial · · Score: 1

      Oops. "scientists are currently able to transport beams of light over several feet" should read "scientists are currently able to teleport beams of light over an empty gap of several feet", for clarity's sake.

      --
      I am scientifically inaccurate.
    5. Re:What about... by Deliveranc3 · · Score: 1, Troll

      I agreed with you that they were nuts until they put a cell tower on top of the building where I had a seminar.

      Every seminar everyone had a mild headache...

  2. vested interest by gingerTabs · · Score: 5, Funny

    So a Wimax group says that Wimax is the next great solution to all our wireless data worries. Who'd have thunk it...

    1. Re:vested interest by LewsTherinKinslayer · · Score: 0

      So a Wimax group says that Wimax is the next great solution to all our wireless data worries. Who'd have thunk it...

      Reminds me of how the cigarette industy used to deny they were addicting.

    2. Re:vested interest by AddressException · · Score: 1

      Reminds me of how the cigarette industy used to deny they were addicting.


      Don't you mean addictive?

    3. Re:vested interest by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Reminds me of how the cigarette industy used to deny they were addicting.

      Used to deny? You mean they've finnaly admitted there is something wrong with their product? That's news to me.

  3. 70 Mbps... total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    That means with many users, each user could end up with dial-up speeds. Correct?

    1. Re:70 Mbps... total? by CypherXero · · Score: 1

      The biggest area in this is e-mail, stock quotes, and other small online transactions. Not downloading files from BitTorrent.

    2. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Less. Suppose 1 million people subscribe, that's 70 bits/second/user... I'll stick to my 56k, thankyouverymuch.

    3. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 4, Informative

      I assume that 70Mbps is per channel. Add several sub channels and a web of towers and it could be substantial. As it is, ATSC allows a 20MBps connection over a single television channel, and it looks like WiMax is looking to make otherwise unused television bands easier to licence.

      Also, with internet service, I was told by an ISP guy that oversell ratios are often in the 50:1 ratio and it still nets very acceptable connection rates. You could probably sell 580 6Mbps accounts and still get the advertised speed. Multiply that by the number of channels available and you could serve a pretty substantial customer base.

    4. Re:70 Mbps... total? by mboverload · · Score: 1

      But people will still try to get movies off Kazaa with it =P

    5. Re:70 Mbps... total? by N7DR · · Score: 2, Informative
      That means with many users, each user could end up with dial-up speeds. Correct?

      On average, yes. But the typical cable modem connection in the US also offers somewhat less than dial-up speed. If every user tried to access the Internet at exactly the same time, they would receive between 40 and 50 kbps service, depending on which cable provider they used. Of course, due to the magic of stat muxing, this never happens, and people are (mostly) very happy with their multi-megabps download speeds. (DSL, of course, is a different matter entirely, since that access network is not a shared medium.)

    6. Re:70 Mbps... total? by DevilM · · Score: 3, Informative

      That is a half-duplex signaling rate. Actual throughput is much less. Plus there aren't a lot of channels to use. 5.8Ghz is unlicensed, so that will be used up quickly. 3.5Ghz isn't available for us in the US. 2.5Ghz is all owned by Sprint/Nextel, Bellsouth, and Clearwire. Of those 3, only 1 is even interested in WiMax and they have the least amount of spectrum.

      WiMax is only a big deal in developing countries currently.

    7. Re:70 Mbps... total? by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
      But the typical cable modem connection in the US also offers somewhat less than dial-up speed.

      BS. Cable around 40 KBps (Bytes per second) versus dial-up of 40 Kbps (Bits per second).

      Even if your cable is busy in the evening, it's still much better than dial-up.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
    8. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      (DSL, of course, is a different matter entirely, since that access network is not a shared medium.)

      I think that's incorrect. DSL isn't shared at the neighborhood level like cable, but at some point, you are connected to a model pool and share the bandwidth from that pool to the rest of the internet.

      I don't know how this works out in the real world, but it's very possible to have network slowdown due to other users all being very busy, if it's a small relay that hundreds are connected to.

    9. Re:70 Mbps... total? by anagama · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So what you are saying, is that like any other broadband tech in the US, the big telecoms will thwart it as long as possible, perhaps until someone realizes that peasants in Ecuador can download movies in 15 seconds and everyone in the US is still on AOL dial-up.

      Still bitter I have only one choice for broadband - no competetion makes for a high cost for me.

      --
      What changed under Obama? Nothing Good
    10. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 1

      Do you know how many channels are available in the 5.8GHz band? I hope it is more than the three non-overlapping bands in .11b/g. I hear .11a has eight non-overlapping channels, which is an improvement but unfortunately isn't widely used.

    11. Re:70 Mbps... total? by wembley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Even if your cable is busy in the evening, it's still much better than dial-up.

      Probably.

      However, the upload speed on cable is bad, and hurts roundtrip latency.
      So you can download a movie trailer superquick, but sending the clicks out to Amazon to get to the trailer may be kind of poky.

      For example, on World of Warcraft, with my RADSL 1.5/768Mbps, I get a latency of 26ms. People on cable modems of 3+ Mbps often report a latency of 5 times mine.

      --

      Share and Enjoy!

    12. Re:70 Mbps... total? by n1ywb · · Score: 1

      Yeah but at that point the DSL traffic is being multiplexed neatly. Cablemodems use a contention protocol, like unswitched ethernet, which means packet collisions. That's why the latency is coupled to usage much more so than on DSL.

      --
      -73, de n1ywb
      www.n1ywb.com
    13. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      DSL, of course, is a different matter entirely, since that access network is not a shared medium.

      Why o why won't this bit of misinformation just die! The difference between DSL and Cable is really nothing like what this makes it out to be. DSL becomes shared bandwidth at the CO, the Cable is shared right away. Really does this mile or so make a difference? Getting to slashdot is still all shared.

    14. Re:70 Mbps... total? by kbranch · · Score: 1

      You seem to have missed the point. I'm pretty sure the grandparent was saying that you'd get dial-up speeds with cable if everybody tried to use it at once, which is quite true.

    15. Re:70 Mbps... total? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Depends on how wide your channels are.

      Motorola Canopy's have 6 channels in 5.7/5.8 at 20MHz per channel. Axxcelera's have 15MHz channels, which makes for 7 channels. Aperto uses only 6MHz per channel. All of these have about the same raw data rate.

    16. Re:70 Mbps... total? by whereizben · · Score: 1

      and now with comcast you can get 6Mb/s down and 768Kb/s up... :)

  4. AOL by strateego · · Score: 2, Insightful

    AOL and MSN would fight this tooth and nail.

    Plus, could this handle millions of people connecting?

    1. Re:AOL by LewsTherinKinslayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Plus, could this handle millions of people connecting?

      With a theoretical range of 30 miles, this would be great for areas like Kansas. Low population density; gives a chance for people who are out there to still have a decent connection.

    2. Re:AOL by garcia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      AOL and MSN would fight this tooth and nail.

      Why? Working for AT&T@Home and ATTBI before Comcast took over plenty of people were connecting to AOL over their broadband connections.

      AOL has people thinking that they *need* their custom content. I don't see why they would fight this? They could get rid of some banks of modems and just allow people to use WiMAX to connect.

    3. Re:AOL by madaxe42 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This, in spite of the clear pecuniary advantages, would never take off in the UK. The reason? Joe Bloggs - the degree of NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) syndrome in this country is phenomenal - people object to mobile phone masts 2 miles away, because they're putting out evil rays which make you die - they put wireless companies under more and more pressure until they're forced by court writ to remove the mast, and, guess what, people complain that their phones don't work any more. Fucking idiots.

      Also, what's the betting that this chucks out a *lot* more hairy-scary radiation than a mobile phone (cellphone) mast?

    4. Re:AOL by tom+taylor · · Score: 1

      Don't get me wrong, I use my phone just as much as the next person, but there's so much uncertainty at the moment about the effects of RF, isn't it worth being slightly cautious about filling our airwaves with high powered RF?

      Lots of people I work with (and lots of these people have worked in the transmissions and broadcast industries) report headaches after using the phone for long periods of time.

      I think we've got a bit of work to do to ensure we're not all going to have major problems in 30 years time.

    5. Re:AOL by NardofDoom · · Score: 1

      Like my parents. A while back we switched from AOL to a local dial-up ISP. My dad didn't understand the difference between a web browser and an ISP, and at first thought that we had to pay AOL and the ISP.

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
    6. Re:AOL by NaruVonWilkins · · Score: 1

      MSN wouldn't fight this - they're more interested in being content providers than infrastructure providers.

    7. Re:AOL by LWATCDR · · Score: 1

      Why would they fight it? They would most likely just make a deal with the provider much as Yahoo does with a DSL provider. While this is all very interesting and cool in major cities you will still get more bandwidth from fiber than from a wireless connection.
      Great for rural areas.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    8. Re:AOL by dtk13 · · Score: 1

      Maybe mac will come in! Then we can have iNet or iWireless or Airport-on-hormones.

    9. Re:AOL by geekee · · Score: 1

      Why would they fight it? Instead, they would partner with WiMax providers to pull in more customers.

      --
      Vote for Pedro
  5. mlan? by justforaday · · Score: 3, Informative

    I thought mlan was something else...

    --
    I'll turn into a supernova and burn up everything. Well I'll turn into a black little hole and you'll turn into string.
    1. Re:mlan? by Luke+the+Obscure · · Score: 1

      I'm glad somebody else said it. When I first saw that mLan would cover 90% of the US I imagined playing my keyboard in Fresno through speakers in New York.

  6. Typical by beekr · · Score: 5, Funny
    but typical ranges and speeds will typically be smaller.

    Sounds typical.

  7. sweet! by de1orean · · Score: 2, Funny

    now where did i put that $3 billion....

    1. Re:sweet! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      i think it may have gone to iraq

      *ducks*

    2. Re:sweet! by de1orean · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      ahhh, iraq. the GAO's "other pants," as it were.

    3. Re:sweet! by Cracell · · Score: 1

      heh, trust me you'd make so much profit it'd be worth it

      but 3billion is a bad estimate, it will cost more for "good connections"

      --
      Signatures are so 90s
    4. Re:sweet! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      i think it may have gone to iraq

      *ducks*


      Duck not, for you are right: http://www.costofwar.com/

  8. First... by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Funny

    Metropolitan Area Network is a MAN. "M" is a much greater scope then "L". M and L don't seem to fit together as being considered the same network.

    "metropolitan area wireless networking" could be wireless metropolitan area network, being WMAN.

    I can't think of something off hand to add an "O". Oh well.

    1. Re:First... by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 1
      "metropolitan area wireless networking" could be wireless metropolitan area network, being WMAN.
      I can't think of something off hand to add an "O". Oh well.

      Outsourced

    2. Re:First... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      wireless open metropolitan area network?

    3. Re:First... by worst_name_ever · · Score: 1
      This sounds like the Bible: "And then YHWH created WMAN..."

      --

      In Soviet Rush, today's Tom Sawyer gets high on you.
    4. Re:First... by redivider · · Score: 1

      Metropolitan Area Network is a MAN, BABY!!!

      OK, back to work...

      --
      Sinch
    5. Re:First... by mboverload · · Score: 1
      Have it at wireless G speeds and you can name it

      G-Man

    6. Re:First... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what you'd call a wireless G access point then? A G spot? A G spot for a Wireless Open Metropolitican Access Network. Hmmm.

    7. Re:First... by bcattwoo · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot so naturally

      O = overlords

  9. A welcome change by Scaba · · Score: 2, Funny

    It will be a welcome change from the jingoism and neo-conservative hate-mongering that is currently blanketing the US.

    1. Re:A welcome change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Quit talking smack about the all great and mighty America and take your ass back to commie france!!! : p

    2. Re:A welcome change by eddievalentine · · Score: 0, Troll

      Liberal hatred is much fiercer, its just masked in political correctness.

    3. Re:A welcome change by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      Fox News has a wireless network?

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    4. Re:A welcome change by david.given · · Score: 5, Funny
      It will be a welcome change from the jingoism and neo-conservative hate-mongering that is currently blanketing the US.

      Maybe you could use it to transmit data? If you hooked up, say, your average Bush voter to a blood-pressure machine and then had someone several miles away talk about how bad the war in Iraq was, I'm sure you'd see a spike on the graph. By using carefully timed conversations and statistical analysis, you should be able to get at least some bandwidth.

      The problem would be isolating the signal from the noise. A passing planeload of French tourists would produce so much interference that you'd probably have to give up and resend. And if a Michael Moore film was shown in the same state, you'd probably burn out your surge protectors...

    5. Re:A welcome change by FuturePastNow · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      I'm glad someone modded that funny. People who think like that deserve to be ridiculed.

      --
      Give a man fire, and you warm him for the night. Set a man on fire, and you warm him for the rest of his life.
    6. Re:A welcome change by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 0, Troll

      That's right, Liberals hate "Republicans" and "Christians" and "conservatives" and "capitalists". Liberal doctrine encourages hatred against those groups.

      It's amazing how intolerant the tolerance crowd can be.

      --
      Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
    7. Re:A welcome change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      They certainly do. Sensible people like you have a bunker in case of Terrorist attacks, and have the Terrorist threat advisory on their homepage.

      Good for you.

    8. Re:A welcome change by HD+Webdev · · Score: 5, Funny

      Fox News has a wireless network?

      They must. After all, they seem to get their 'facts' out of thin air.

      There must be a lot of packet loss though...their news is an extreme distortion of reality.

      --
      This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
    9. Re:A welcome change by Scaba · · Score: 1

      What's more amazing is that in such a complex world, you can have such a simplistic view of things, like you're the president of the USofA of something. Believe it or not, there are persons in this world who embrace ideas from both the right AND left. There are liberal Christians, conservative athiests, tree-hugging vegan capitalists (ever shopped at Whole Foods?), etc. You should probably turn off Rush for a bit, step outside and get some fresh air. All that propaganda clouds your vision and makes you say stupid things in public.

      By the way, I lost the link - can you tell me where I can download a copy of the "liberal doctrine"? Oh wait, I remember, it's right here and here.

    10. Re:A welcome change by Anonymous+Meoward · · Score: 2, Insightful
      That's right, Liberals hate "Republicans" and "Christians" and "conservatives" and "capitalists". Liberal doctrine encourages hatred against those groups.

      Well, as a liberal (big or small L, take your pick), let me take some stock.. hmm...

      • Republicans.. nope, don't hate them. Feeling sorry for moderates these days in fact, since they're taken for granted. I wonder how long the GOP can afford to piss off the John McCains and Christy Todd Whitmans.
      • Conservatives.. can't say I hate them either, as long as their arguments are rational. I found myself agreeing with Pat Buchanan of all people recently, when he charged that the Shrub administration voilated conservative principles of small, non-interfering government. Scared the hell out of me that I'd actually agree with him, but he was dead on IMO.
      • Christians.. nope, don't hate 'em, so long as they have that "11th commandment" thingy worked out (very few do though)..
      • Capitalists.. nope, strike four. I'm an MBA student, after all. Not too many Marxists in B-school.

      So much for sweeping generalizations. But let me tell you about some things that DO drive me up the wall:

      • Rednecks. Having grown up with them, I can safely say they are just nasty, scummy people. Just play the song "Stuart" by the Dead Milkmen over and over and over again, you'll get the idea. Good riddance to bad rubbish.
      • Fundamentalists. Or for that matter anyone who seeks "freedom" (of will, or conscience, whatever) by mandating mindless conformity. Who'd have guessed that Karl Rove and Osama have something in common?
      • "Patriots", or any idiot who says we're fighting for "freedom". Freedom of... what, exactly? Speech? Nope. Religion? Not unless you're Christian. RTBA? Maybe, unless you're a "terrorist".
      • "Fair and balanced journalism", which is an oxymoron. Facts are under no obligation to be either fair or balanced. Bias is impossible to eradicate, granted, but good journalism presents just the facts, and no carefully appointed "experts".
      • The level of critical thinking in this country. It's amazing how mediocre the media has become in just 20 years, not to mention education. But I guess we have this idea that we're entitled to our way of life no matter what. (Funny, I've read the Constitution, and "sport utility vehicle" doesn't appear anywhere in it.) In America, if at first you don't succeed, lower your standards.

      Rant over....

      --
      --- The American Way of Life is not a birthright. Hell, it's not even sustainable.
    11. Re:A welcome change by violently_ill · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      how in god's holy balls did this get modded "funny" and not +1000 troll? you must have a real axe to grind to turn a post about the spread of WiMax into an opportuntiy for america bashing.

    12. Re:A welcome change by bloo9298 · · Score: 1

      In contrast to Slashdot story postings where there's often sufficient redundancy to allow for error correction.

    13. Re:A welcome change by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If they don't hate them, then why didn't they ever make a black woman Secretary of State? Why didn't they ever make a black man Secretary of State? Why didn't they ever give Latinos cabinet positions?

      George Bush did.

  10. some thoughts by DevilM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I believe the 70Mbps is half-duplex, so we are only really talking 35Mbps. Further, if you calculate the square mile coverage for a signal that has a 30 mile radius you will see that 35Mbps shared is really going to suck.

    1. Re:some thoughts by kakos · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's true if you're always uploading just as much as you download. The vast majority of people will be mostly downloading, so the half-duplex won't half the speed.

    2. Re:some thoughts by Jeff+DeMaagd · · Score: 2, Informative

      It is true that the claimed wireless bitrates never stack against the real bitrates, I think it is a bit much to assume ISPs will ever allow full rate uploads on consumer internet connections.

      Also, 70Mbps is probably the total for a single channel. Add multiple channels and several towers and you can probably serve a medium to high density city.

    3. Re:some thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What?

      Do you know what duplex is and how it works?
      .
      .
      .
      .
      .
      obviously not.

    4. Re:some thoughts by homer_ca · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That 30 mi range is the max over open terrain. With buildings and hills it'll be a lot less. So a 30 mi radius in a rural area with 35Mbps shared isn't so bad. Also, in a city you could always have more cells with lower power to give more capacity.

    5. Re:some thoughts by kakos · · Score: 1

      Says the anonymous coward. It's clear you have no idea what duplex is.

    6. Re:some thoughts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      you are right.

      I was goign to explain duplex to you a little but Cisco saved em the trouble,

      Ethernet Technologies

    7. Re:some thoughts by vnsnes · · Score: 1

      That is if you are covering a round cell with a single omni-directional antenna. I think when a cell is deployed, several directional antennas are used to cover a cell. Configure adjacent antennas to non-overlapping frequency channels to avoid interference. Using directional antennas also gets you longer reach because the energy can be focused on a smaller area and the FCC specifies max power output per area

    8. Re:some thoughts by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 1

      That bandwidth is per sector, not for the entire tower. Currently one tower can have upto 6 sectors on a single basestation. A tower can have multiple basestations and overlapping sectors though.

      The limit on sectors is based on "channel space" in the frequency range and physical space on the tower. Currently pre-WiMax is a line of sight technology, so location (height) on the tower is important, and there is only so much physical space.

      With overlapping sectors, it becomes very tricky to manage the channel overlap.

    9. Re:some thoughts by bluGill · · Score: 1

      Depends. I have relatives who live in a township (36 sq miles) with the population of 96. That is the most populated township in the area. (the smallest has 30 people) For them one tower would cover everyone with great speeds, yet might be affordable to put up. (Affordable, but likely because they want to advertise they cover the entire US, though the tower could be profitable)

      In the city you just turn the signal down a little and put up more towers. No big deal if you plan things right.

    10. Re:some thoughts by n6gn · · Score: 1

      I'll say it's max! 802.11b/g will do distances like this with decent antennas too, but saying 30 miles and non-LOS in the same breath is horse hooey.

      Let's see, assume transmitter power like WiFI, say 11a and +20 dBm (100 milliwatts). Allow signals to occupy spectrum, say 1 bps/Hz gives 70 MHz bandwidth. Assume this is broadcast, with 10 dB of gain in the vertical plane, a la cell phone cells.
      +30 dBm ERP, receiver noise floor is KTB=-96 dBm or so in 70 MHz (no interference, thermally limited noise floor). So we have 126 dB of C/N to play with. Now, grant another 10 dB of receiver antenna gain, (can't have too much directivity because users aren't going to be willing to constantly repoint their antennas). 136 dB of C/N. Let's say the modulation scheme can make do with 6 dB for low BER. 130 dB C/N for path loss.How long is this path? Depends on frequency but at 5 GHz it's about 37+20Log(Dmiles) + 20log(5000)=111 dB at 1 mile. So we can go 19 dB (call it 20) further or 10 miles. To get to 30, we'll have to use more than 10 dB antennas, but 15 dB antennas on both ends would do it. Yes, it can work with reasonable hardware, LOS at 30 miles, just like 802.11a or similar. BUT

      NOW the fun begins. What happens when the *real world* enters with non-LOS paths? Right, it depends upon the path. If it's through a hill, another 80 dB of path loss is easy to imagine. In fact if it's even through a moderate tree, another 20 dB is easy. One tree! That dropped our 10 miles back to 1 mile. A few trees and are easily at another 20 dB of path loss and down to .1 mile.
      Is this beginning to sound like your experience with WiFi, "1300 feet outdoors" less indoors? For good reason! It's governed by the same laws of physics and real world paths. It will act the same, no matter what Intel says or what the protocol is designed to do. This is physics, Shannon and real world paths set the limits.

      Intel may sell a lot of hardware and make more money but they *aren't* going to be capable of building radios simultaneously capable of 30 miles and non-LOS. If it were possible, your cell phone which runs more power (perhaps several watts)at frequencies where there is lower pathloss wouldn't drop your call 2 km from the cell site. And at that a call which only requires on the order of 10 kbps. 10,000 times that datrate on less power at higher frequences and 10X the distance. Let's get real.

  11. From the editorial desk... by yossarian+dent · · Score: 5, Funny
    ...typical ranges and speeds will typically be smaller.

    In other news, redundancy and saying the same thing twice will not be tolerated or put up with.

    --
    sig not ready: (A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail.
    1. Re:From the editorial desk... by Terragen · · Score: 0, Redundant

      In other news, redundancy and saying the same thing twice will not be tolerated or put up with.

      Brought to you by the Department of Redundancy Department

  12. Don't forget 10% of the population by weekendgeek · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This would still leave 30 million without access.

    It's not like they're able to cover 90% of the country.

    --
    It would be presumptuous to conclude that Americans have no right to know what is being done in their name
  13. So many things COULD happen by chia_monkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We have to take this article with a grain of salt. First off, the article is put out by WiMax Trends. Of course they're going to say that. It's like Microsoft saying they rock and the world depends on their software. Second, there are a lot of trends that COULD happen...broadband over powerlines for example. While this is a rather cool wireless application, let's not all be getting all giddy just yet.

    --

    "He uses statistics as a drunken man uses lampposts...for support rather than illumination." - Andrew Lang
  14. no more war driving! by TheRealMadScientist · · Score: 0

    ...just sit'n'sniff (or is it scratch'n'spin)?

    --
    "Vee do not vear the hello-my-name-ist badge!!" - The Real Mad Scientist
  15. I'd prefer this to Hubble. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Same order of magnitude of cost - and the benefit touches far more people.

  16. WiMax is here already.... by glomph · · Score: 3, Informative

    Where here is Jacksonville FL,
    St Cloud MN,
    Abilene TX,
    Daytona Beach FL....

    1. Re:WiMax is here already.... by tussey · · Score: 1

      woot! That's awesome! I goto college in Orlando but my mom lives in Jacksonville. I had no idea we had this service! Thanks.

    2. Re:WiMax is here already.... by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 1

      Clearwire doesn't use WiMax technology, they use 3GPP. More specifically they use IPWireless's technology

    3. Re:WiMax is here already.... by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Clearwire doesn't use WiMax, they use 3GPP (cell technology). More specifically they use IPWireless's technology.

      There are no deployments of WiMax yet, because the field trials have not even started.

    4. Re:WiMax is here already.... by glomph · · Score: 1
      There are no deployments of WiMax yet, because the field trials have not even started.

      SINCE WHEN has lack of field experience stopped a hasty, expensive deployment?

    5. Re:WiMax is here already.... by uss_valiant · · Score: 1

      Mod parent up or grandparent down.

    6. Re:WiMax is here already.... by Daedala · · Score: 1

      There are, in fact, deployments of WiMax (or at least pre-WiMax) according to the IEEE. Sites include Owensboro, KY and Seattle, WA.

      --
      What I say does not represent the views of my employers, my friends, my cats, or myself.
    7. Re:WiMax is here already.... by Undertaker43017 · · Score: 1

      And Parkersburg WV/Marrietta OH.

      WiMax is close to trials, and since there are pre-WiMax installs, the trials should go pretty quickly.

    8. Re:WiMax is here already.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.cherokeeconnex.com/ there it is.... already up and running call them and they'll hook you up...

  17. Make it public! by utexaspunk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Screw Iraq, or a tax cut, or whatever bullshit subsidy the government wants to spend my money on- we should have this. Now! A $3bn investment in a free, public, high-speed wireless internet infrastructure would repay itself by stimulating all sorts of economic growth in a very short amount of time. Naturally, that means it'll never happen... It'll only get built by a large corporation that will charge us out the asses for it and provide spotty service. Woohoo! Maybe the EU'll do it... It'll certainly benefit places that are further behind in their infrastructure by helping them get past the last mile problem...

    1. Re:Make it public! by Daedala · · Score: 1

      The EU standard is HIPERMAN. The WiMax Forum FAQ says

      The IEEE 802.16-2004 (256 OFDM PHY) and ETSI HiperMAN standards share the same PHY and MAC specifications. The WiMAX Forum is active in both standards organizations to ensure that a single global standard for Wireless MAN is adopted.

      What this actually means is that the WiMax Forum is working to make sure that WiMax and HIPERMAN products interoperate (not that WiMax eats HIPERMAN or vice versa). US and EU must always make their own standards. It's more fun that way.

      --
      What I say does not represent the views of my employers, my friends, my cats, or myself.
    2. Re:Make it public! by greenegg77 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't worry - if the government runs it, you'll still get charged out the ass for it, only they'll charge everybody out the ass, not just those who use it.

      Since I live out in the country, and probably fall into the 10% who won't receive coverage, I'll get to pay out the ass for a service that I use, but I'll also get taxed out the ass for a service that I don't use! What a bargain! C'mon, I really don't want to fund yet another program that I won't get to receive benefits from, like Social Security.

      --
      --- This .sig for sale - $500 OBO.
    3. Re:Make it public! by twbecker · · Score: 1

      Yeah, this will wind up getting done by one of those huge, money grubbing corporations. Then they'll rip us off and provide shitty service. It will be the complete opposite of the streamlined, well-oiled machine the government would produce. . . puhleeze. The government needs to stay out of the ISP business , and stick to providing basic necessities.

      --
      "The problem with internet quotations is that many are not genuine" -Abraham Lincoln
    4. Re:Make it public! by spud603 · · Score: 1

      I agree.
      I think it would work better, though, if the federal gov't funded the states to do it themselves.
      If we think it's worthwhile to give the weathiest people in the country huge tax cuts (how am I benefitting from that?), then I don't see why we wouldn't think it's a good idea to do something useful for a fraction of the price...
      How 'bout this: next time we want to fund a coup against a democratic government in some backwater developing country, let's spend the money on providing a service to US citizens instead.
      I can't stand the "not with my tax dollars" arguments from people that would vote for someone like Bush.

    5. Re:Make it public! by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 1
      "...a democratic government in some backwater developing country..."

      Which country would that be?

      "...let's spend the money on providing a service to US citizens instead."

      Here here! I think we should take the $$$ from the funds allocated for international aid.

      --
      Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
    6. Re:Make it public! by spud603 · · Score: 1

      "Which country would that be?"
      Nicaragua, Haiti, El Salvador, and Venezuela, to name a few from this hemisphere.
      I don't want to provide money to my government so they can abuse the rights of others. Do you really call that "taking the $$$ from the funds allocated for international aid". I think you must have a frightening idea of "international aid".

    7. Re:Make it public! by BigZaphod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hang on... If you give something like this away, does that really promote economic growth? I mean... you'd effectively kill almost all the other wireless providers out there who create jobs and tax income for the government and replace it with a system that just costs the government (and by extension, us people) money. That doesn't seem like it'd help, really. If a private company did this, then you'd have that company paying taxes and hiring people along with all the other competing companies. That's a far better situation in terms of government tax income and economic growth than having all that go away to be replaced by one "free" system.

      Since this would be bad for the government and be terribly expensive, I expect it to happen any day now...

    8. Re:Make it public! by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 1

      I am not equating "war chest" with "international aid", if that's what you're asking. I'm suggesting that we should take care of our own first.

      And I do mostly agree with you, don't get me wrong. I was just curious to see if you were going to call pre-invasion Afghanistan or Iraq democracies.

      --
      Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
    9. Re:Make it public! by utexaspunk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's hard to say if it would be a net good or bad thing, really- on the one hand, those employed by present ISPs will be out of jobs, but then the government would need people to build and operate their network.

      A corporation is going to always charge as much as the market will bear. Once the infrastructure is built, it would only be necessary to maintain it, which would mean that the amount of our taxes going to wireless internet infrastructure mantenance should be less than what we would be paying a for-profit company annually for similar service.

      This reduced cost would equate to lower overhead for businesses, which should result in lower costs for our goods in services. Sort of a "trickle down" effect, I suppose. This should add extra stimulus to the economy, which would mean more tax revenue for the government.

      Who knows? It seems to benefit us to have our other infrastructural needs provided by the government. Besides, recent years seem to show that public utilities are pretty easily privatized. Much harder to socialize an existing private enterprise.

    10. Re:Make it public! by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      I agree with you. They could even pay for each person to carry a portable WiMax reciever with them. This could feed GPS information to a central database that in turn could charge people for consuming public resources, keep people from being wrongly accused of committing crimes b/c the government computer could clearly demonstrate that you were not at the scene, and this device could also send important civic notices to the person carrying it.

      I can't stand the "not with my tax dollars" arguments from people that would vote for someone like Bush.

      You are so right on. These neocon, richest 1% loving, vote tampering, minority opressing, homophobic, fundie, redneck fascists should own up and realize that the government has been gracious enough to all us to keep the money we work for and if they want it back so they can use it to provide services for the betterment of us all... well then they should be able to have it back. Hell yeah!

      If I did have one of those cool portable WiMax devices, I could have just been reminded that we've always been at war with Eurasia.

    11. Re:Make it public! by timeOday · · Score: 1
      The main point of infrastructure isn't the jobs created by building the infrastructure, it's all the new business enabled by the functionality of the infrastructure.

      If we decided to let our freeways fall into disrepair, sure, a few freeway construction workers would lose their jobs, but the real crippling effect on the economy would be the skyrocketing cost of transporting things, which would hit every industry hard.

    12. Re:Make it public! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Since I live out in the country, and probably fall into the 10% who won't receive coverage, I'll get to pay out the ass for a service that I use, but I'll also get taxed out the ass for a service that I don't use!

      I wish that was the way our government worked, but I'm still paying to subsidize rural power and rural phones. The phone fee is a large portion of my land line bill. Now, Bush wants to tax my broadband to keep you from paying the full cost for yours.

    13. Re:Make it public! by BigZaphod · · Score: 1

      Hmm. Good point. I didn't think about the highway systems and such until after I posted. There are certainly some valid parallels there.

      I guess what it comes down to, though, is I am not terribly comfortable with the idea of the government effectively controlling everyone's access to the Internet. It seems then it would be only natural to do the types of things they currently do on public roads and such: enforcing speed limits, enforcing the kinds of materials that can be transported (data), the kinds of vehicles (applications), and of course the "reasonable cause" searches (traffic sniffing).

      Maybe I'm just paranoid, but that isn't always a bad thing... While companies could just as easily do this as the government, they have a certain self-interest in not sharing what they may know due to sniffing and such which sort of keeps things in check, I'd think. With all this new-found cooperation between the various three letter agencies thanks to Homeland Security, I think having a government-run public infrastructure of the Internet might be a very bad thing indeed.

      At least on a public highway system you can speed, haul illegal things, and in general get away with questionably stuff if you're careful and/or lucky. With something like the Internet, though, that isn't true at all because of the way the technology itself works. For instance, let's say you and a bunch of buddies wanted to go protest something the government very much didn't want to be protested. They have no real way to stop you and your busload of friends from getting there because all along the way no one knows where you came from or where you're going. This isn't true on the Internet. So if they don't want your web browser to see something, it is a trivial thing to just not allow your packets to get there and back because of how the entire system works.

      I don't think many people would be happy with the idea that every time they got in their cars to go someplace that some government computer would be notified who they were and where they were going. On the Internet that is exactly what could happen--and it'd be pretty easy to do, too.

      At first there'd no doubt be commercial carriers that co-exist with a public government network, but I suspect that if people didn't know the implications (which they likely wouldn't because it wouldn't be obvious), almost all of those providers would die due to a lack of funding and customers. At an extreme, government could just outlaw them entirely. And then we become like China.

    14. Re:Make it public! by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      You say "A $3bn investment" and then

      wait for it...

      "free"

      Within 3 words of each other!

      Plus that doesn't cover maintnence.

      All making something like this public would do is spread the cost out over the entire population instead of just over the population of users. Who are you to force other people to pay for your network access?

    15. Re:Make it public! by ivan256 · · Score: 1

      but I'm still paying to subsidize rural power and rural phones

      At least nobody forces you to pay for phone service.

    16. Re:Make it public! by 14erCleaner · · Score: 1
      If you make this free and publicly available, the result will be an explosion of spammers.

      Hmmm, that's not such a bad image...exploding spammers....

      --
      Have you read my blog lately?
    17. Re:Make it public! by timeOday · · Score: 1

      Good point, I had been thinking about it in economic terms. But there are privacy / security issues too. Once everybody is helping pay for something, they tend to feel justified in exerting some control.

  18. 30 mile range! by angle_slam · · Score: 3, Funny

    I should get this for my apartment. My 802.11g doesn't work 40 feet. (I'm serious, I tried to log on this morning and I had no signal. I can see the laptop from here, right next to the router.)

    1. Re:30 mile range! by Matey-O · · Score: 1

      Check to see if your antenna is fully seated. I had to use a surprising amount of force to seat the antenna into my airport extreme card in my ibook.

      --
      "Draco dormiens nunquam titillandus."
    2. Re:30 mile range! by Daedala · · Score: 1

      What you need is an antenna.

      --
      What I say does not represent the views of my employers, my friends, my cats, or myself.
    3. Re:30 mile range! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      if youre in a high density place then youre probably saturated with interferrence. 2.4ghz microwaves, cordless phones and other peoples access points.

    4. Re:30 mile range! by wembley · · Score: 1

      I should get this for my apartment. My 802.11g doesn't work 40 feet. (I'm serious, I tried to log on this morning and I had no signal. I can see the laptop from here, right next to the router.)

      You have an apt. with a 40 ft. long living room?

      Is this in North Dakota or something?

      --

      Share and Enjoy!

    5. Re:30 mile range! by Hugonz · · Score: 1
      I'm serious, I tried to log on this morning and I had no signal. I can see the laptop from here, right next to the router.

      Given that, you could just try IR networking =)

  19. Q: Why was pt-to-point unprofitable? by wsanders · · Score: 1

    Why was point to point broadband unprofitable in the first place? Was it cost of subscriber equipment? Congestion at the central point? I had some friends with Sprint pt-to-pt service in the mid 90s and it worked great. But the service came from only two points in the SF Bay Area CA; you had to have line of sight to San Bruno Mtn and Peak on the east side of the Bay. It was $50/mo, cheaper than DSL at the time.

    --
    Give a man a fish and you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish, and he'll say "WHERE'S MY FISH, YOU IDIOT?"
    1. Re:Q: Why was pt-to-point unprofitable? by computechnica · · Score: 1

      My neighbor up the hill still has his SprintBroadband connected! They only offered it in Oklahoma City for 2 months in 2001. The guy came out and put up a antenna on a 30 foot pole and stood on top of my house and still could not get a signal. If they still offered it I would have put up a 100 foot radio tower just to get it.

  20. 802.xx variants by Chris+Kamel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Haven't we seen enough already of 802.xx hoopla? Isn't it about time someone sits down and make just one good, usable, and extensible standard?

    --
    The following statement is true
    The preceding statement is false
    1. Re:802.xx variants by Leroy_Brown242 · · Score: 1

      When it comes to this sort of thing, it's not "one good one" it's "the one that fits my needs best".

    2. Re:802.xx variants by kmmatthews · · Score: 2, Funny

      Say, you're a manager, aren't you?

      --
      feh. stuff.
    3. Re:802.xx variants by Chris+Kamel · · Score: 1

      hehehe no, I'm a software developer actually. but now you got me thinking how bossy that sounded :D

      --
      The following statement is true
      The preceding statement is false
  21. Wishfull thinking? by bartok · · Score: 3, Interesting

    If this technology becomes affordable enough, it's gonna be the death of mobile phone telcos. Everybody and their mother (with a little capital) would be able to deliver cell phone services in a metropolitan area. The cell phone line could become the new broadband modem at the fraqction of the cost of any type of landline technology. The possibilities are endless.

    1. Re:Wishfull thinking? by hal2814 · · Score: 1

      Don't count on it. Phone services are expensive because they are heavily regulated and heavily taxed. When the gov't starts losing tons of tax revenue because people are switching off of regular phones, they'll just heavily tax and regulate whatever comes along to replace those phones.

    2. Re:Wishfull thinking? by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Yeah but voip isn't. What's your point?

    3. Re:Wishfull thinking? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 2, Informative

      Sounds like you haven't seen a WiMax radio, which is much larger than a cell phone. (People are talking about mobile WiMax, but it's vaporware.)

    4. Re:Wishfull thinking? by hal2814 · · Score: 1

      voip just hasn't taken enough regular telco business away yet. When it does, it will become a feeding ground for politicians.

    5. Re:Wishfull thinking? by tekunokurato · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No reason to regulate it because it's not scarce, no monopoly power because there are no economies achieved through size, and no money flowing through to tax for the average consumer (sure, enterprises spend money on voip, but that's not really in the discussion). Good luck trying.

      I mean, I agree with your thesis that gov't is vultures for enterprise, but that's when there is scarcity or fear of monopoly or significant gains to be had from taxation. These are implicitly untrue with voip.

    6. Re:Wishfull thinking? by gingerTabs · · Score: 2, Informative

      Only if you don't mind taking a step back in terms of functionality. WiMAX doesn't support handover/handoff between cells and maintaining a call currently. They're talking about it but it is (as someone else mentioned) vaporware.

      Plus, if this is unlicensed, then how are you going to provide SLAs to your customers that allow speech?

  22. Liscenced bands by Exluddite · · Score: 1
    With the emergence of VoIP, I wonder how much of a fight they'll have on their hands for the liscenced frequencies. I don't see someone like Sprint giving up bandwidth to the competition.

    There are other bits of the spectrum that are being looked at as well. Among them is on the 6MHz TV channel.

    How long do you think it will be till you read about some joker hacking grandma's old RCA to get online?

    --
    What does this button do...
    1. Re:Liscenced bands by SpaceLifeForm · · Score: 1
      How long do you think it will be till you read about some joker hacking grandma's old RCA to get online?

      Not sure, but Nipper is looking into it.

      --
      You are being MICROattacked, from various angles, in a SOFT manner.
  23. One problem by geneing · · Score: 1, Redundant

    You'll be sharing those 70 Mbits/sec with the people in the 30 mile radius.

  24. Re:ebay scam by Gherikill · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    DO NOT GO TO THE SITE listed in the Parent. It attempts to install a Trojan.

  25. Wardriving by mboverload · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Haha, now I wont even need to have a car to wardrive!

  26. Who published? by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 5, Informative
    You know, whenever I see a study that makes some very broad sweeping claims about how successful something will be, I always look at who the source is. In this case, here's the copy/pasted "About the Author" from the bottom of the article. Bold emphasis is mine.

    " About the Author: Caroline Gabriel is Research Director of Rethink Research Associates and Editor of WiMAX Watch, a newsletter providing in-depth analysis of the WiMAX market. She is a featured columnist for Trendsmedia's WiMAX Trends, and is a leading industry analyst on wireless and wireless broadband technologies. She recently authored WiMAX Business Models 2004-2007: How to Make Money in WiMAX, published in the US/Canada by Trendsmedia. For further information, email info@trendsmedia.com"

    --
    Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
    1. Re:Who published? by torinth · · Score: 1

      Good point. If she wrote a book about it, she must know a lot about what she's written here.

      What's wierd is that it almost seemed like you were trying to be critical...

    2. Re:Who published? by Lord_Dweomer · · Score: 1
      I'm not trying to shoot her down, I just want people to be educated about these things. I'm in advertising/marketing and these kinds of things happen to stick out to me a LOT. I pick up on them very easily, but I know that not everybody does.

      Being able to spot that kind of stuff and factoring that into your decision making process when you're trying to decide if a source is credible is an invaluable skill for life, especially in the business world.

      I'm not doubting that she knows what she's talking about. I'm sure any professional in that industry does. What I was pointing out was that the possibility exists that the reason she's writing this article might have something to do with the fact that she also sells the book. Just something people should take into consideration about any subject matter on the internet.

      --
      Buy Steampunk Clothing Online!
  27. 70 Mbps, not more? by uss_valiant · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I didn't read up all the 802.16?.? stuff, working groups etc., but why are they considering a high data rate standard with just 70 Mbps max?
    I mean, we built a 216 Mbps (480 Mbps raw data rate) MIMO-OFDM SoC (+/-802.11a compliant) at the university. 216 Mbps is nothing special for next generation, > x Gbps have been achieved. But our System on a Chip (SoC) seemed to be a low cost solution.
    Did anyone read all the workin group notes? Are multiple antennas only considered at the basestation?

    1. Re:70 Mbps, not more? by uss_valiant · · Score: 1

      Could someone summarize the state of the standardization process of the different task groups of 802.16? :)

      This might be a good starting point: http://grouper.ieee.org/groups/802/16/

  28. Interesting article on the subject by Anita+Coney · · Score: 1

    Mark C. Stephens, aka, Robert X. Cringely, had an interesting article about this topic a few months ago.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
  29. Make it private! by eddievalentine · · Score: 2, Insightful

    An $X billion dollar investment in a free, public Y would repay itself by stimulating all sorts of economic growth in a very short period of time. See that's all the economic knowledge it takes to be a central planner. I hear the Communist Party is looking for some! Congratulations.

    1. Re:Make it private! by LightningBolt! · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And Ronald "supply-side economics" Reagan is our party leader, comrade.

      An $X billion dollar investment in a free, public Y would repay itself by stimulating all sorts of economic growth in a very short period of time. See that's all the economic knowledge it takes to be a central planner. I hear the Communist Party is looking for some! Congratulations.
      --
      Old people fall. Young people spring. Rich people summer and winter.
    2. Re:Make it private! by jacoplane · · Score: 1

      Who builds the road infrastructure in the US? Is that done by private companies too? How about national defence? If it hadn't been for DARPA there would have been no internet, at least not in the shape we know it today. Get real, the US is guilty of central planning just like every other country. It's about finding a balance of course, Communism=BAD, Anarchy=BAD.

  30. What about 3G? by OlivierB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Guess the cell phone operators who spent all the billions just 3 years ago must be about to enter headless chicken mode.

    They spent more than just for the *LICENSE* than what is required for deployment. Check this out for yourself http://www.cellular-news.com/3G/
    Licenses are typically upwards of $4 billion dollars.
    Carriers have to spend EXTRA for the deployment.

    Ok, I know some of you will say that 3G is not exactly the same as Wi-Max (especially with regards to handing-overs). But a wi0fi voip will work just enough for me to use especially if the calls are unlimited and free.

    Heads should start rolling just about now...

    --
    Artificial intelligence is no match for natural stupidity
    1. Re:What about 3G? by jilles · · Score: 2, Informative

      I doubt it, unlike the IEEE wireless standards, 3G networks are actually designed to scale up to country wide coverage while providing access to hundreds/thousands of users per node rather than a few dozen at most.

      --

      Jilles
    2. Re:What about 3G? by NardofDoom · · Score: 1

      No, the WiMax companies will simply be bought by Verizon and T-Mobile, and true broadband (you know, like with symmetrical speeds in excess of 1Mbps, no server restrictions and static IPs?) will continue to be coming "real soon now."

      --
      You have two hands and one brain, so always code twice as much as you think!
    3. Re:What about 3G? by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Actually, the wimax companies will be commiditized and will use products and services by verizon and t-mobile.

    4. Re:What about 3G? by nchip · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They spent more than just for the *LICENSE* than what is required for deployment.

      Well, wimax requires a *LICENSE* as well, unless you plan to run it on unlicensed band with all wavelan users and limited transmission powers... It is however likely, that operators will not initiate as insane frequency bidding competitions a second time. However, that has nothing to do with the superiority or suckiness of either tech.

      But a wi0fi voip will work just enough for me to use especially if the calls are unlimited and free.

      What an amazing business opportunity.

      1. Beat Verizon, Sprint, Cingular et all in WiMax frequency bidding, build blanket coverage over Americ and start offering free and unlimited voip calls over it.
      2. ????
      3. Profit!

      --
      signatures pending - ansa@kos.to - (dont mail there)
  31. hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yard! by museumpeace · · Score: 1, Troll

    I for one do not welcome our new microwave overloads!
    In my town, nobody wanted cell towers. Quest sued us just to put up one tower and the south end of town still has crappy coverage for cell phones. Yes, our town is quite rural, a hold-out against developers who want to pack the hills with developments. WE F***ING WANT IT THAT WAY! I think TFA is addressed to urban folk and technology-steeped youngsters who wouldn't even understand that they are crambing down our throats something that is a solution to a problem only they suffer. I won't be surprised if the whole business is going to be gummed up like floridated water was: years of last ditch court battling by people who don't need the communication and dont want the irradiation. Some will never be convinced that, even at low low power, the radio frequencies used for cell phones, wifi and other techology are without potential health risks.

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  32. Great...if you have no trees by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    LMDS and MMDS never managed to solve the propagation problem. Tree leaves are amazingly good at stopping high frequency RF signals--they hold a lot of water during the spring and summer months. WiMAX for all its great technology does not have an answer for this. In fact it is likely to face MORE propagation problems than earlier fixed wireless attempts because it operates at much higher frequencies.

    Yes, WiMAX has OFDM, which is great for urban environments because it handles multipath (bounces) well. But trees don't bounce; they absorb.

    WiMAX will certainly find success in many environments. Urban is one. Desert is another (American southwest). Far north is another. Many of the currently profitable fixed wireless installations are in the desert or far north, where there is little tall vegetation to eat the signal.

    But in places like rural or suburban Mid-Atlantic, southeast, and New England--places with a lot of deciduous trees--expect the ranges and speeds to be far below predicted, with service "shadows" depending on your exact location.

    1. Re:Great...if you have no trees by TrdrJoe · · Score: 1

      >WiMAX will certainly find success in many >environments. Urban is one. This is not suitable for urban environments at all. Even if one tower could give access the the entire new york area despite interference from buildings, that would mean we are sharing a 70MBs channel with 11 million people. That leaves about .006KBps per person. Short-range radios like Wifi would be much more suitable, because of what's called "spatial reuse". But then we don't have ability to cover 90% of the population with $3 billion. The claims in this article are largely overstated.

    2. Re:Great...if you have no trees by TrdrJoe · · Score: 1

      >WiMAX will certainly find success in many
      >environments. Urban is one.

      This is not suitable for urban environments at all. Even if one tower could give access the the entire new york area despite interference from buildings, that would mean we are sharing a 70MBs channel with 11 million people. That leaves about .006KBps per person.

      Short-range radios like Wifi would be much more suitable, because of what's called "spatial reuse". But then we don't have ability to cover 90% of the population with $3 billion. The claims in this article are largely overstated.

    3. Re:Great...if you have no trees by tekunokurato · · Score: 1

      Joe, the specs for wimax are multichannel. As you have noted, 70mbps is just one. The technology is easy to scale--one station containing a few channels can be implemented and serve the early adopters in each are. It only takes a small marginal number with year-long commitments to break even on implementation of further channels. Piece. Of. Cake.

  33. I doubt that 90% by Rick+the+Red · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I really doubt anyone can ever reach 90% of the USA's population with ground-based antennas. TV can't do it. Radio can't do it. Cell phones can't do it. Why should these guys be able to do it?

    I live within 30 miles of a major metropolitan area, but I won't get a signal here. How do I know? Because I'm behind a hill. I don't get broatcast TV signals or cell phone signals here, either, and radio is somewhat of a crapshoot.

    --
    If all this should have a reason, we would be the last to know.
    1. Re:I doubt that 90% by Ironsides · · Score: 2, Informative

      http://www.tvb.org/rcentral/mediatrendstrack/tvbas ics/02_TVHouseholds.asp
      Percentage of Households with a TV: 98.2 down from a high of 98.4. Of course, this combines Cable and Megawatt transmitters, but that will give you an idea. If you have cable, you already have internet accesibility.

      --
      Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
    2. Re:I doubt that 90% by wolrahnaes · · Score: 1

      "Percentage of Households with a TV: 98.2 down from a high of 98.4. Of course, this combines Cable and Megawatt transmitters, but that will give you an idea. If you have cable, you already have internet accesibility."

      umm...forgetting satellite are we? that's how so many households get TV where they otherwise couldn't, but it's a last-resort choice for internet access due to high latency and costs.

      your post's parent was pointing out how a large portion of the country can not recieve OTA TV or radio, which would mean that WiMax is likely out as well.

      --
      I used to get high on life, but I developed a tolerance. Now I need something stronger.
  34. Re:ebay scam by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny
    Try this:
    while true; do wget --proxy=off --cache=off --referer=http://scammer/blaster/ --user-agent=ScammerBlaster --page-requisites --delete-after http://www.190.sy/helpdesk_ar/cuprite/ebay/; done
    They'll get shut down in a jiffy.
  35. WiFi is evolving by phorm · · Score: 1

    WiFi is still an evolving technology. Over time new standards are being developed, and speeds are increasing.

    Wired ethernet is also still improving, but it has hit a point where the existing standard is fairly solid.

    Given this, and the very real possibility of security/interference/etc issues with WiFi, I think that building a large infastructure around it is a bit premature. Internet isn't a necesary service, and offices can generally afford to pay for their own. Having the gov't etc pay out billions for such a tech is not justified at this point (besides, it will probably get cheaper over time).

  36. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by P3NIS_CLEAVER · · Score: 1

    you need some prune juice

    --
    Please sign petition to restore sanity to our banking system!!!

    http://financialpetition.org/
  37. Great by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

    Now they're going to start poisoning the 5ghz bands. Nothing like pissing on your neighbor's lawn.

    --
    The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
  38. Point taken by Retrospecter · · Score: 1
    It seems like the planning for this is taking forever, especially since it should be a boon to the tech industry. But remember, all government coordination is bad, private enterprise is always more efficient (that's sarcastic folks).

    Sarcasm appreciated. And you should see what happens when government and private enterprise work together. It usually ain't quick.

  39. Awesome! by crunk · · Score: 2, Funny

    This technology, in addition to radio, television, cellular, CB, satellite, and microwaves, we should be able to drastically reduce the cancer rate in this country.

    --
    It's the battle of the minds, and everyone's unarmed.
  40. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by mohaine · · Score: 1

    Damn, I wish slashdot had a mod entry of 'tinfoil'

    --
    (appended to the end of comments you post, 120 chars)
  41. Think of what you just posted... by Trolling4Columbine · · Score: 2, Funny
    "A $3bn investment in a free, public, high-speed wireless internet infrastructure..."

    Way to contradict your own argument in one sentence.

    --
    Socialism: A feeling of discontent and resentment caused by a desire for the possessions or qualities of another.
  42. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Not to mention we're already polluting Mars with our killer Cell Phone death rays! No wonder all the Martians left before we got there.

  43. Won't get far by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This stands a chance of getting broadband out to people who weren't previously reachable ... so it won't succeed. Remember, this is America, where special interest groups like radio HAMs and cable ISPs can lobby to ban innovative new technology that threatens the status quo.

  44. Wardriving by mattthateeguy · · Score: 0, Redundant

    News: Soon you will not even need a car to wardrive, all you have to do it pull out your laptop in your appt. and turn it on!

  45. Yeah, by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 2, Funny

    but we'd have to kill 3% fewer Iraqi children to subsidise this!

    --
    "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
    Never been known to fail..."
    1. Re:Yeah, by ghukov · · Score: 2, Funny

      Oh well forget that then, we have to make sure those Iraqi children pay for their crimes

      --
      ...because Plutonians are teh suck
    2. Re:Yeah, by Dun+Malg · · Score: 1
      but we'd have to kill 3% fewer Iraqi children to subsidise this!

      Isn't that paid for by the "No Child Left Behind" program?

      --
      If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
    3. Re:Yeah, by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      Nothing is paid for by the "No Child Left Behind" program...

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    4. Re:Yeah, by Kafka_Canada · · Score: 1

      You realize that because of the invasion Saddam is no longer filling mass graves with children? That he's no longer building prisons and torture chambers specifically for children?

      If you wanna pull a "Think of the Children," at least try not to come up with complete Bush-derangement-syndrome America-hating bullshit.

      Even this British Marxist group can figure out what you've obviously failed to: http://www.marxist.org.uk/htm_docs/comm12.htm ...and for fuck's sake, they're British! And Marxists!

      --
      Fuck it
    5. Re:Yeah, by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      You mean, American tax dollars do not buy bullets that enter the bodies of Iraqi children?

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
  46. penetration ?? by PureCreditor · · Score: 1

    the article fails to specify how well WiMax penetrates building in a density populated urban setting. If it's poor, carriers will have to spend much much more to get indoor or underground reception. 3 billion is an ideological figure.

  47. To have some perspective, 3 billion is... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The Iraq war is about 177 M USD per day. That makes about 17 days of Iraq war.

    Or 1.4 B2 stealth bombers.

    So it's not really that lot.

  48. Re:not a problem by Nuskrad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not all that much, when you consider the Iraq war cost somewhere between $80 and $150 billion.

  49. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    No thanks, I put out the crap pretty regularly;)
    It would be useful if readers note that along with my personal opinion, most of my comment is reportage: I describe the politcial conditions as they really operate in one particular town, atypical as it may be.

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  50. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by Woy · · Score: 1

    Grandpa, tell me that story again about how you didn't want cell towers, Quest had to sue you to get one up, and you still complain of crappy coverage. That was always my favourite.

    --
    "If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
  51. Monkey Mayhem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Politics will turn the internet into yet another controlled medium rendering the value of ubiquitous connectivity to the lard pots of a few and the present free exchange of ideas little more than a fairy's tail.

    The free distribution of ideas offends, threatens and terrorizes those who have no ideas of their own and they are the majority. For this reason we must FIGHT against global acceptance of socialist democracy.

    The government has usurped the roll of family and community through cooptation of it's values in the manner of a perverted uncle. The children are spoiled and don't realize they are being fucked by this uncle, be he SAM or the more thouroughly perverted 'old countries'.

    Prison rape does not require bars, only a laundered brain and the desire to swap ones ass for a candy cigarette.

  52. Am I missing something..? by Avyakata · · Score: 1

    Wouldn't that create a potential nation-wide vulnerability? In Europe there have been problems with people "hi-jacking" the bluetooth networks; I'd imagine this would spawn similar problems in the States. Plus, if this interconnects people acroos the entire country (or at least 90% of it...) what happens if someone gains control of it...somehow this conjures up thoughts of The Terminator and Skynet...

    1. Re:Am I missing something..? by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

      connectivity does not mean that everyone is on the sam network dork.

      --



      I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  53. How to Make Money in WiMAX by Infonaut · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Indeed, it's certainly not time to get giddy just yet.

    From the "about the author" blurb at the bottom of the article:

    "Caroline Gabriel is Research Director of Rethink Research Associates and Editor of WiMAX Watch, a newsletter providing in-depth analysisof the WiMAX market. She is a featured columnist for Trendsmedia's WiMAX Trends, and is a leading industry analyst on wireless and wireless broadband technologies. She recently authored WiMAX Business Models 2004-2007: How to Make Money in WiMAX, published in the US/Canada by Trendsmedia."

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  54. I think they mean MAN by grahamsz · · Score: 1

    Every Metro network i've used has been called a Metropolitan Area Network... it allows far more creative naming like FaTMAN :)

    1. Re:I think they mean MAN by l3v1 · · Score: 1

      They might, they might not. One is L(ocal)AN/M(etropolitan)AN/W(ide)AN, as the size increases. In case of wireless, just the WLAN notion has spread.

      --
      I am putting myself to the fullest possible use, which is all I can think that any conscious entity can ever hope to do.
    2. Re:I think they mean MAN by grahamsz · · Score: 1

      But WLAN is Wireless Local

      The Metropolitan equivilent would surely be WMAN, and i propose we pronounce it WeeMan

  55. What could be on Billy's mind, we wonder? by ortholattice · · Score: 1
    Let's see, $3 billion is about 5% of Microsoft's bank account. Hey, we can afford that, it's a drop in the bucket. Doesn't look good to have all that cash sitting there doing nothing anyway. So for that we'll get 90% of the population covered. Now, we'll make it free for a couple of years until all the regular ISP's die of starvation... Yeah, three years should do it...

    Damn those antitrust laws... There has to be a loophole, this is just too good... hehehe... Get daddy on the phone!

    1. Re:What could be on Billy's mind, we wonder? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Microsoft paid out a dividend.... they don't got 60 billion in cash anymore.

  56. How about Southern CA, USA? by antdude · · Score: 1

    Any around L.A. and outside of the city like in 91745?

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  57. totally overstated calculation by briancnorton · · Score: 1
    That's like saying that one cell-tower can cover a whole downtown area. While technically true, potential concurrent users in any major metro area would demand significant and overlapping and redundant coverage. To cover 90% of the US population you are talking about only urban areas, magnifying the problem.

    This figure also doesn't include spectrum licensing. Any telecom could swing 3 Bil if that were the true costs.

    --

    People who think they know everything really piss off those of us that actually do.

    1. Re:totally overstated calculation by Ingolfke · · Score: 1

      You sir, frankly, suck! Here I was thinking I had a sure fire way to strike it rich and you come in here with your logic and your facts and ruin everything. Here's what I had..

      1.) Get $3 billion
      2.) Build out WiMax network
      3.) Sell to 90% of US Population for $19.95 per month.
      3.) Profit!

      Oh well, I've always got my backup plan... you've heard of 8 Minute Abs workout video. Well I'm going to release a new video called 7 Minute Abs. Same great ab workout, for one minute less. Who wouldn't buy it?

  58. broadband coverage by jthayden · · Score: 1
    Anyone have any ideas what percentage of the population already has access to broadband if they choose to pay for it?


    Over 80% of the US lives in a metro area of at least a 100,000 people. This would imply to me that they most likely have access to some kind of broadband. Yeah, more choice is good, but I doubt this will really reach many people that don't already have an option.


    BFE Kansas is not going to be covered by this and will still be screwed.

  59. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Did you not compose your entire post in front of an electron gun? Enjoy Television? How about your telephone? You good ol' boys like your CB radios don'tcha? Friggin' neo-Luddites. Either embrace tech or go join a Mennonite colony :) .

  60. wait until analog TV spectrum is up for sale by the_2nd_coming · · Score: 1

    then we can get wiFi with perfect reception everywhere.

    --



    I am the Alpha and the Omega-3
  61. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    its always cute when a bunch of luddites demand that time stop around them.

    its called progress...move to montana if you want to be a backwards hick, the rest of the world is going to keep moving on.

  62. You keep using that word, I do not think by mcc · · Score: 1

    you know what it means.

    Quantum "cryptography" is based on a two-party communication being carried out in a focused, unbroken beam of single particles, for example photons. It is not encryption in the traditional sense, not exactly. Instead the general idea is that if something starts interfering with your transmisson-- say by eavesdropping-- you cease transmitting until they stop.

    Wireless technologies such as WiMax are not compatible with this paradigm. They are radiative in nature, and naturally and unavoidably so-- since they must deal with people who transmit and receive while moving, as well as inconveniences such as walls. Moreover many participants in the protocol, in particular hubs, must be able to communicate with many parties simultaneously; and ALL participants in the protocol must not only accept the presence of interference, but have an active plan for working around it when it occurs (in the case of 802.11 this is done by frequency hopping, but I am not familiar enough with WiMax to know their methods here). Quantum cryptography has yet to be shown compatible with any of these requirements; conceptions of quantum cryptography that are being researched in the lab now are compatible with none of them.

    It may be conceivable that future research into quantum cryptography will uncover alternate forms of the quantum cryptography concept which will allow it to be the basis for a WiMax-like protocol. It is also conceivable this will never happen. However if such forms are discovered, they will definitely not be applicable to WiMax itself; quantum cryptography or anything like it will never just be a drop-in for WEP or whatever WiMax uses, since rather than an algorithm they are a fundamentally different conception of how to transmit information.

  63. headaches by drxray · · Score: 1

    Did they try using a landline for the same length of time? Or some other kind of communication with similar characteristics to a mobile (i.e. crappy, unreliable signal, pathetic microphone and speaker, background noise, poor volume so you have to half-shout all the time).
    These seem like the major problems with mobile phones to me. Just holding something up to your head for 4 hours a day probably isn't very good for your wrist or your face...
    Maybe it is the RF, but there are a lot of potential factors there, not only physical, but the mental stress of being in constant contact can't be good for you either.

    --
    Slashdot - Mutual Assured Discussion
    1. Re:headaches by tom+taylor · · Score: 1

      Agreed, it's hardly scientific, but that's why we need some definite research and agreement of the effects. With so much anecdotal evidence, there's got to be something to it, somewhere.

    2. Re:headaches by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Agreed, it's hardly scientific, but that's why we need some definite research and agreement of the effects.

      There's plenty of research and they haven't found any problems. Plenty of people work in storng RF environments and there's no evidence of a problem.

      With so much anecdotal evidence, there's got to be something to it, somewhere.

      Why? People want to believe in these things for there own reasons. Just like UFOs and "Who Shot JFK". It doesn't mean there really is something. If you feel the need to believe cell phones are dangerous, you might ask yourself why.

      Radio waves are everywhere. WiMax wouldn't make a noticeable difference.

    3. Re:headaches by madaxe42 · · Score: 1

      On the note of headaches from phone - i've noticed I get them from both land and mobile lines - and you know why? Because I end up straining my eyes. Not sure how, just strange sort of squinting lack of middle distance focussing... think about it the next time you're on the phone. more people do it than you'd think.

  64. Wrong. You meant Phone and Cable will prevent it by zymano · · Score: 1

    Phone and Cable companies are now the new Luddites(google it).

    They are obstructionists of new technology.

    They don't want anyone messing around in their guaranteed profits.

    Cable broadband = 200-300k sec downloads ? LOL . What theft ! Broadband should only be mentioned with fiber to the home. FTTH(google)

  65. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by sindarin2001 · · Score: 1

    Ironically, even Montana isn't full of backwards hicks (at least the portions I have lived in). Sure, we've got ranchers...but most ranchers are more "high tech" then your average city-ite.

  66. 802. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I thought it was going to be 802.20!?!

  67. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    You'd better stay anonymous! In Missoula, they plow the snow from the bike lanes...right up to the Espresso shops and at the state level they managed to register enough voters for the Dems to hang on to some power...doesn't sound like you have ever been to Montanna and it would be better for both if you kept it that way. [and yes, cell phones work fine around town there, mine sure did.]
    Its becoming clear that a technophile mob is no kinder or more clear headed than a technophobic mob. The chances that anyone who could accurately be called a Luddite actually has a /. account or even knows what /. is is kinda remote. Use your words with care so people will listen to you.
    "not in my back yard" is a perfectly real part of politics, licensing and regulation in a lot of communities. The point was worth making although I could have found a less inflamatory way, as several other commentators have, of saying this "carpeting the map with WiFi" notion is not a demand outside of urban areas and maybe not even an option.

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  68. Metro WiFi by Sheepdot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Teligent spent $1.3bn in a year building its network but only signed up 35,500 customers by the time it filed for bankruptcy in 2001.

    One of the biggest problems I have with government subsidized wireless access is the misconception that it can be done with minimal cost to taxpayers.

    If it hasn't been done by the market yet, then it most likely cannot be done till you have the right market. Trying to push "free" wireless on people who will be paying the tax for it, and may or may not have access, is a pain. Especially if the people paying for it get tired of latency issues or cannot access it and have to keep paying for their already overpriced cable/dsl.

    I also find it VERY interesting that this individual claims it will only cost $3 billion to cover 90% of the US. I'm assuming she means population, and I'd like to figure she gets to that number at $100,000 per zipcode (approximately 9,000+ zipcodes). That's $900 million for just the equipment. Half assets, 450 million, is for energy to keep them going. Double assets, $1.8 billion, is for employment to upkeep, handle network issues, etc. This estimate does not consider upgrades, maintenance, raises, or energy conservation. It's likely to need continual re-evaluation.

    3 billion dollars paid for by 130 million taxpayers? (IRS estimates 130 million income taxes were filed in 2003) That's $23.07 per taxpayer, per year, regardless of whether you end up getting service or not. And regardless of the uptime or latency of said service. Sounds great, right? Ask the French about their "videophones".

    I can see something like this working in Korea, but not the US.

  69. Re:Don't forget 10% of the population by bersl2 · · Score: 1

    You are assuming that the country has uniform population density. Obviously, this is not so.

  70. It could? Does it matter? by jfoust2 · · Score: 1

    Urban and suburban areas already have increasingly cheap, increasingly fast DSL and cable modem connections. Wireless of any form costs more, has more parts to break, and suffers interference that DSL and cable don't see as often.
    For rural areas, the city center is probably covered by DSL and cable. You can't beat BigCable and BabyBell on price with wireless: how do you amortize at least $400 in customer-premise equipment at $30-40 a month, not counting the cost of bandwidth? Who warranties it when lightning strikes?
    And bandwidth isn't cheap in the sticks, either. I just got done with a 3 year T-1 contract that cost $768 plus tax, and the renewal is still at $532.
    How many people do you want to over-subscribe on that, especially when more and more of them want to run their p2p apps full-bore, all day long? How much time do you want to spend trying to out-filter the next p2p app?
    It almost makes me think I should get into the business of dial-up. A modem is a great rate limiter.
    A previous poster mentioned the Kuro5hin article from last December. There's plenty of wisdom in it. Go read it. And I say all this as one of those mom-and-pop small-town WISPs.

    --
    Curator of the Jefferson Computer Museum http://www.threedee.com/jcm
  71. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by mookid77 · · Score: 1

    You are argument seems very similar to issues that are raised where I live and work. Its seems people come and visit, then move here, and want the landscape to stay the same from when the visted. Except when the move here, they want power, cell phones, DSL etc....
    So the State says how about some wind power? Oh noo, they will change the way the mountains look! Then 5 minitues later, how come my cell coverage is so crappy? Verizon/Unicel, can we put up a tower here? NO! it will change the landscape!...

    Gimme a break.

  72. AT&T debacle? by mi · · Score: 1
    We already once went for the promise of "universal connectivity" and gave AT&T a monopoly on telephones.

    The effects are waining but can still be felt...

    --
    In Soviet Washington the swamp drains you.
  73. It's not MLAN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    From the blurb:
    metropolitan area wireless networking technology (MLAN)

    LAN means "LOCAL area network"
    WAN means "WIDE area network"
    MAN means "METROPOLITAN area network"

    You can't be both a LAN and a MAN. Given that that the current terminology is WLAN for wireless local area networks, this would be a WMAN, not a MLAN.

    Just being pendanic.

  74. a tangent by syukton · · Score: 1

    I'm curious, tangentially, what the specific mode of data transmission generally is: amplitude modulation or frequency modulation. (AM/FM) I'm asking this because FM usually requires a suitable chunk of spectrum; FM radio is chunked into 200khz pieces. ie, 88.5 MHz then 88.7MHz, they don't ever license 88.6, though. FM transmitters make use of the whole 200 Khz band to transmit their signal.

    Couldn't you get more bandwidth using AM transmission on 200,000 channels, instead of frequency-modulating across 200 Khz of the spectrum? Even if you had to pair the channels (or even pool them) for error correction (AM transmissions are prone to interference), you'd be left with several thousand if not many dozens of thousands of channels with which to transmit high-speed 3.5GHz data.

    So I'm curious how this technology works. Is it numerously-channeled AM based, FM based, more-precise FM based (not using the whole 200kHz necessarily, but maybe 100kHz or 50kHz)... or? I'm curious about the nitty-gritty of the underlying tech. How are they doing it? Why? etc.

    indeed, a tangent.

    --
    Reinvent the wheel only at either a lower cost, greater effectiveness, or your own personal enrichment and satisfaction.
    1. Re:a tangent by geekee · · Score: 1

      It's probably 16-QAM or maybe even 64-QAM

      --
      Vote for Pedro
    2. Re:a tangent by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      Even AM uses spectrum. A single frequency that modulates up and down (AM) can be treated as a superposition of multiple frequencies - the carrier and the data. No matter how you do it, you always end up with sidebands (data) that consume extra bandwidth.

  75. Re:Don't forget 10% of the population by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Er... I think the entire point of the grandparent's post was that, in fact, population density is not uniform.

    E for effort, F for comprehension.

  76. No by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No. 70Mb/s per end user.

  77. Mod down as clueless by geekee · · Score: 1

    It's not 70Mb/s shared. It's 70Mb/s per channel. This service is competitve with DSL and Cable.

    --
    Vote for Pedro
  78. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    Yup, thats exactly how it is in my town.
    development crept a a near stand-still for 30 years after the town changed zoning to require 2 acres for siting a house. It took yuppie money from the 80s and dot com money from the 90s to put up the next round of 6000sf mansions. The old people are not especially well off except for the value of their land and they vote against any expenditure the can. The new people exhibit exactly the schiziod demands you suggest: "more conservation land, and parking lots and better cell service" go figure! The utilities hate us because of the low subscriber density..we were about the last place to get cable. My next door neighbor and I were hatching a plan to put up a dish and share out the bandwidth to the neighbor hood when comcast finally brought in broad band.
    As for me, having to commute to work on a mountain bike is, as they say in the ads, priceless.

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  79. sound's good by dfghjk · · Score: 1

    you talk like that's a bad thing...

  80. Don't make the mistake... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...of assuming that one technology must serve the entire population of an area. For WiMAX to "find success" it merely means it has to provide a service in a manner that is profitable long-term. It doesn't have to replace DSL or cable. It just has to cherry-pick the under-served, the price-conscious, or other niches (for instance--the highly mobile). In fact two of its competitive advantages are that it is low-cost (no wires) and easily scalable (just bolt another unit to the tower).

    "Spatial reuse" is not unique to Wi-Fi. The balance between # of customers served and area covered is common to most interactive RF services. WiMAX cell size will certainly be smaller in urban areas than surburban or rural--just as it is for phone service.

  81. free pr0n for everyone! by Chiisu · · Score: 1

    ^_^

  82. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

    So what is your point exactly? That you don't want no technology, no way no how? Wimax is supposed to cover like a thousand square miles per cell or whatever its called. Or just that you want it to be asthetically pleasing? But you attempt to make a distinction between yourself and those who fight against munincipal water / electromagnetic communications.

    Clearly somebody thinks there's demand for the services, or else they wouldn't be pushing for it. I feel sorry for the poor kids who live there; they're suffering under what amounts to a politically connected retirement community resolute to maintain the status quo against inevitable population growth.

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  83. $23.07 per year. Highway robbery! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why, I can get 256K DSL service for only $29/month! So this would cost 15% of the price for (fairly slow)wired broadband. Stupid inefficient government, they should be able to do better than that!

    Folks, you can't even get dial up for anywhere near that price.

    Sheesh, what a nimrod.

    How about setting up a semi-private entity to handle this, the we way handle the mail? The Post Office may not be perfect, but it's better than Enron, or Comcast for that matter.

  84. Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

    Can Wi-Max do adhoc networking?

    I mean, is it necessary for Wimax subscribers to talk to the access point, or can two Wi-Max equipped notebooks in a desert with no infrastructure talk direct to each other?

    1. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      I doubt WiMax includes an adhoc mode, because WiMax is all about wireless ISPs. There won't be any WiMax-equipped notebooks anyway, since the antenna is too big. (One day notebooks may support 802.16e with mesh mode, but that stuff is vaporware.)

    2. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by aXis100 · · Score: 1

      There won't be any WiMax-equipped notebooks anyway, since the antenna is too big

      Umm, how do you figure that?

      Antenna size is related to frequency and gain. High frequency = smaller antenna, high gain = larger antenna.

      So, for a low gain 3.5 to 5GHz antenna, it could be as small as a 2cm loop on printed circuit board, mych like cuurrent 2.4GHz wifi antennas are now.

    3. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by Wesley+Felter · · Score: 1

      Exactly. A small antenna would have so little gain that the performance would be terrible.

    4. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      Hi, thanks for the reply, but there will be WiMax notebooks. A Google search on Wimax laptop brings up an article saying:
      Intel plans to release WiMax laptop chipsets by 2006.

      From what I've read think WiMax uses adaptive antenna technology to increase range and throughput, even in densely populated areas (the antenna actually is several antennae DSP to track a user). But from all I've read about it, there is just no mention of ad-hoc mode. Quite frustrating.

    5. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by n6gn · · Score: 1

      A "smart" antenna, one which has gain and is dynamically steerable is certainly better for a mobile user than one with a static pattern. However, Even at 5 GHz, where there is a more directivity possible from a physically smaller antenna, any notebook I'd be carrying probably doesn't have an antenna larger than, at most, the display.
      An isotropic antenna, a hypothetical reference antenna with no directivity and thus 0 dB gain, has an effective aperture of 1/(4*pi) square wavelengths. This means that a directive antenna, one with gain, has a gain of about 12 (just over 10 dB)per square wavelength of aperture.
      A laptop/notebook display is on the order of 30 cm x 30 cm. That's about 25 square wavelengths of area at 5 GHz. If the smart antenna phasing and steering were lossless, and the antenna were exactly broadside to the desired direction, such an antenna would have at most a gain of around 300 -- 25 dBi. In reality, it is likely to have considerably less.
      BUT considering a user antenna of 25 dB gain, located in typical user surroundings and trying to use (mainly non-LOS) paths to communicate with WiMax, the results are TERRIBLE, compared to the marketing that WiMax is getting. Please see my previous post for some justification for this assertion. It is my contention, which I believe I can support by both path loss models as well as measurement, that such a laptop radio/antenna is not likely to be able to communicate even a few 10's of Mbps more than a few hundred feet. Yes, *feet* (OK, I'll modify that to 100 meters or two if you prefer those units (:>)
      WiMax is not even remotely close to being able to deliver 70 Mbps and 30 miles non-LOS. It's *many orders of magnitude short* of this for any conceivable likely implementation.

      Intel is selling snake oil. It doesn't have to work for them to succeed, they simply have to find buyers.

    6. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      You'll have to get more optimistic soon :-) Here in Australia a company called Unwired is doing quite well (with happy subscribers on a pre-WiMax technology using modems from a company called Navini. They claim their wireless modems are firmware upgradable to WiMax once the spec is finalized. Lots of people are using their service (though I haven't tried it myself), it has been reviewed by local magazines, and from chats with acquiantances who have tried it, the range is at least several miles (they claim their range to be 10 km.)

      I saw your explanation, and my electronics engineering skills are too rusty to appraise it critically, but have you considered this?: from what I read, the smart antennae of the type apparently used in WiMax implementations *depend* on multipath, non-LOS propagation. The base station tracks the user constantly and alters phase of the signals among various antennea elements until the multiple signals reinforce each other at the user end.

    7. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by n6gn · · Score: 1

      Well, I'm quite optimistic, only it's that physical laws aren't going to be violated any time soon by a standards committee, a big corporation, or anyone else who is mortal.

      I glanced at Navini and might hazard a guess that the modem your acquaintances use is roughly 1 Mbps. Even at that relatively low speed (compared with WiMax claims) I stand by my assertion that 30 miles and non-LOS with laptop-sized antennas and laptop class power levels is simply not going to happen. In fact, if the modems your acquaintances have are like the "RipWave" on Navini's web site, I'm certain that if you investigate their network performance with antennas located in typical user laptop locations; indoors, shielded by buildings, trees and hills, from a 10 km distant central site, you'll discover that it doesn't even work at 1 Mbps. Probably not at all in most such locations. We're back to the vast difference between LOS/ideal sites with good (gain) antennas and non-LOS/typical locations. It's easily 1million:1 (60 dB) different and sometimes much more over multi-km paths.

      WRT smart antenna and dependence upon multipath solving the problem.. is a little like saying that a company can lose money on each product they sell but make it up in volume (:>)

      The link budget estimates I was making are at a level below that of the protocol. That is, I am applying Shannon's equation which basically says "if you do everything perfectly and use an optimum coding/decoding technique". I'm assuming that *all* energy, from every last path or source, is effectively demodulated as best theoretically possible. The antenn's full aperture was deemed available in every circumstance. That's another way of saying that the "smart antenna" was perfect, for it's size. My estimates were actually quite optimistic as I didn't derate things for the realities of real-world implementations like noise, interference, cable loss, coding/decoding imperfections and protocol efficiencies.

      However, I take to heart your comment about following the numbers, I was generating them on the fly, as I typed, and I realize that they are probably not easy to follow for those who have been spending their time living an interesting life (:>)

      Actually, it isn't necessary to look at the entire link budget to see the validity of my case. If one simply starts at the point I agree with Intel, that 30 miles *is* possible with WiFi/WiMax class hardware and the right antenna over LOS paths, all that is required is to come to an understanding of the amount typical paths deviate from ideal ones.

      For this, it isn't necessary to take my word for it. Path loss modelling and analysis is a big deal for people doing fixed wireless (I guarantee that Navini has/will run into it just like the cellular carriers have--who spend a very large amount of money in site planning each year). Simply pick a model of your liking, there are several but below 1 GHz the Lee model is in favor and above 1 GHz, including PCS/CDMA-2000 and WiFi/WiMax frequencies the COST231/Hata model is often used. These models give pathloss from a (normally, high level) central site to a few "typical" user scenarios. Rural, Sub-urban, urban and dense-urban are commonly represented. For "last-mile" distances, the results are *many* tens of dB's worse than LOS. Each 10 dB is an order of magnitude of information capacity reduction.

      So, by running one of these models such as the COST231 one at
      http://www.mathworks.com/matlabcentral/fileexc hang e/loadFile.do?objectId=2224&objectType=file
      which , BTW, runs OK in Octave if you happen to have a Linux distribution handy), you can pretty easily see how grim the reality is.

      Columbus was right, the world wasn't flat. If it was, we might be able to actually get the kind of performance that Intel is suggesting, or allowing to be inferred from their claims. As it is, the world of the typical laptop user isn't even a smooth sphere, the top 50 meters or so where users live in most areas is extrem

    8. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by sonamchauhan · · Score: 1

      Hey again. :) I'm not making claims on behalf of Intel. Just that a lot of people here find it an effective last-mile technology, in a way that Wifi hasn't been able to achieve.

      1 Mbps seems about right for the speeds on offer here. Hey, I have 512 Mbps ADSL, and I think _that's_ fast.

      Regarding 3G, its an older and more expensive technology compared to Wimax. Here, 3G networks are getting hammered, but Unwired is doing relatively well. In fact, Unwired is planning to trial Voip in April (their modems have a second unused RJ11 port).

      Yes, the Navini modems and the Unwired modems are identical.

      I found the paragraphs below from this document on their website.


      Interference Mitigation and Suppression

      With the Navini system, RF power is transmitted in narrow beams that coherently combine at the
      intended CPE. Other CPEs do not suffer much interference from the signals directed to others. In
      contrast to conventional omni-directional and sectorized systems where a CPE receives all signals
      intended for other users, this feature allows each CPE to receive a significantly higher signal-tonoise ratio than conventional systems since it minimizes cross interference.
      When using adaptive beamforming for the forward link, Navini's system can be configured to avoid
      radiating energy in any specific direction further mitigating interference. If an interference source is detected in a particular direction, the system can create a null in that direction. This is especially critical in frequency bands where other products may be radiating energy towards the CPE and base station.
      For the reverse link, when the signal from a certain CPE is to be extracted, spatial filtering or
      space-time processing is used to suppress the interference from other CPEs. It has been
      demonstrated that the source signal can be completely covered by an interference source and
      Navini's system can still compensate and demodulate the signal.

      High Maximum Path Loss & Signal Integrity

      The biggest challenge to overcome for delivering a zero-install solution is delivering adequate
      signal-to-noise ratio (SNR) for broadband access. The reason old solutions require outside
      installation and in many cases line-of-sight alignment to the base station is the inadequacy of
      existing technologies to be able to deliver the necessary SNR to an indoor plug-and-play CPE.
      Navini solves this problem with MCSB technology: by using a cost-effective, adaptive phased-array
      smart antenna at the base station, which produces adaptive beamforming, and coherent combining
      of sub-carriers at a specific CPE location. The adaptive phased-array smart antenna utilizes power
      more efficiently than conventional methods to deliver significantly increased SNR to the CPE.
      Beamforming works in much the same way as a flashlight delivers more light at a desired location
      than a conventional bulb, while utilizing a fraction of overall energy (small batteries vs. high
      voltage power source). The beamforming gain, combined with diversity antenna gain of the CPE,
      eliminates the need for separate custom-installed outdoor antenna/transceiver units.
      Beamforming/coherent combining is also done on the upstream at the base station to allow for the
      deployment of small low-cost low power CPE.

    9. Re:Ad-Hoc Networking Mode? by n6gn · · Score: 1

      I don't argue that a good implementation at only 1 Mbps can be better than a poor one at 11 or 54 Mbps. However, their cheerleading about smart antennas helping maximize performance with high path loss in the context of indoor antennas and (very) non-LOS paths is comparing antenna and modulation improvements of a few dB, with pathloss increases of at least 30-40 dB. Put into linear terms (as information capacity is normally expressed) that's comparing an improvement factor of a few, say 3 to 10, with path degradations of ten thousand. It reminds me of rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic as a method to improve chances for survival!

      Even at only 1 Mbps, with the best of modulations and "smart" antennas, compared to the degradation on the majority of longer (1-10 mile) user paths, fixed wireless is not going to prove to be a general solution.

      Use if if it can work for you in your location but don't count on it to be a widespread solution. Definitely don't invest your retirement on its technical merits in doing that.

      Now, perhaps I better stop being so realistic and disparaging of Intel before I get into trouble.

      Huh. Have to go now anyway, someone at the door... I wonder if those guys in black shirts driving that truck with a funny "I" on it are delivering something to me, didn't expect anything today.....
      (:>)

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  85. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by museumpeace · · Score: 1

    my point was to point out to a crowd that contains hardly a soul who'd question the desireability of uniform connectivity that there are places and people who don't share that unquestioning stance. Beside my technophobic townsfolk, here is another instance where your solution is my problem:
    I work in a DOD funded lab where being awash in WiFi from off premises base stations would drive them nuts. They'd be jambing it or erecting faraday cages all over the place. We don't bring in cameraphones, we turn off cell phones...or else.
    Yes there is a demand and no I wouldn't personally mind replacing my cell phone with something that is more like a computer...I could really use that. Its just /. are a rather specialized, gadget happy bunch and not unlike a convention of parapelegics telling each other "yeah lets get ramps EVERYWHERE, who needs stairs?"

    --
    SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
  86. Walmart by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 1
    --
    My God, it's Full of Source!
    OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
  87. Re:hand me a tin foil hat but...not in my back yar by xenocide2 · · Score: 1

    Do they have faraday cages now for WiFi?

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  88. So where's the hardware? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We keep hearing all these WiMax - but where's the radio for home or for people that want to start up their own WiMax? The reason WIFI become such a hit is the hardware is cheap, available from multisource.

    So far - where's the hardware for WiMax??

  89. Re:a tangent: modulation scheme by SEAWOLF36 · · Score: 1

    Orthogonal Frequency Division Multiplexing, a modulation technique for transmitting large amounts of digital data over a radio wave. OFDM works by splitting the radio signal into multiple smaller sub-signals that are then transmitted simultaneously at different frequencies to the receiver. OFDM reduces the amount of crosstalk in signal transmissions. 802.11a WLAN, 802.16 and WiMAX technologies use OFDM. It allows a lot of chatter!