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In Need of Repatriation Advice?
kir asks: "I've been living in Japan for the last 10 years -- 6 in the USAF, 4 in 'freedom'. My wife and I recently decided to move to the U.S. (back for me, not for her). I am wondering what advice the vocal Slashdot minority might give me. I'm most interested in tips on finding a job from here and gauging a proposed salary based on a location of which I know nothing. I'd also find helpful tips on preparing for culture shock (both my mild case and my wife's possibly severe one). Thanks!"
I've been in a similar situation as you (although I was only there for 8 months). I would recommend moving someplace with a sizable Japanese community. This would help ease the urges for Japanese books, food, and other media. Being prepared for a trip or two back (at least for her) would be a good idea too. You're going to want to make sure she knows as much English as possible before you go (including slang) - that'll help with the shock. Culture shock is going to suck sometimes. The best way to deal with it is to be very supportive and make sure you have a good foundation in your relationship for problems. Be prepared for your wife to be angry or upset with you as a sympom of it. The first month won't be so bad, but the next 6 months to a year are going to be very trying on both of you. Good luck.
Also, don't assume that just because you're a citizen and are coming back, your wife can come back. If you married her overseas, she has no more legal right to enter the US than any other alien (IANAL, but that is my understanding).
My advice is to talk to an immigration attorney ASAP.
Advice: on VPS providers
We can probably give salary advice, but we need to know where in the US are you planning on moving to, and what field you are in.
I'd start with salary.com, actually. There's a lot of information on cost of living, expected salary ranges by geographic location for virtually any position, and comparisons between different areas so you can start to guage how expensive it is to live somewhere.
;)
As a personal recommendation, Saint Paul or Minneapolis, MN (or the surrounding area) is probably one of the best places for a tech-minded person to find work right about now. The salaries are still high versus the cost of living, and there are a lot of positive things about Minnesota... just so long as you don't mind the freezing cold in the winters or the massive snowdrifts.
That green slime had it coming.
you're going to leave _japan_ to come _here?! my advice would be to rethink the whole idea.
Don't work in IT!
The US is not the same place it was 10 years ago. Lately it's become a rather unpleasant place to live.
I suppose some people would say this isn't sudden change but rather a slow change but the end result is the same: There are a lot of nicer places in the world to live... Move to one of those places instead.
Seriously!
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Requires C#/Visual Studio experience.
Click here for details.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
I wasn't in Japan nearly as long as you, but having dealt with my transition and seen couples go through the same thing -- don't underestimate your culture shock relative to your wife's, for two reasons:
... there's a reason why the expat went to the local spouse's country in the first place and a reason why the spouse was drawn to him/her. Frequently the spouse wants to head to the expat's country more than the expat does.
1) When you're accustomed to being a highly visible minority, losing that status can be at least as disconcerting as gaining it.
2) Not speculating on your particular relationship, but as a general observation
What I'm listening to now on Pandora...
I've dealt with the same Japan-US culture shock with a woman in my life. If she has not traveled much in the US she is likely to be shocked by the seemingly disrespectful way we treat each other. Explain that just because someone is curt with you doesn't mean they don't like you. Also, the Japanese tend to have a 'just world hypothesis'. i.e. where an American will scream, "THIS ISN'T RIGHT", the Japanese will sort of accept things as they are. She should be prepared to be a bit more questioning of things- the American system is (for better or worse) based on the average person being more informed, critical, and proactive.
BE VERY READY TO DEAL WITH UNBELIEVABLE IDIOCY WITH ALL THINGS GOVERNMENT IMMIGRATION RELATED. I advise you get either 1) get a lawyer, or 2) have her come to the U.S. on a fiancee visa, and get 'married', ignoring your previous marriage. I think that if she comes on the standard tourist visa-waiver (instead of a fiancee visa), there will be trouble with this approach and she will need to leave after 90 days, but I'm not sure.
Make sure you bring lots of good seaweed and dashi when you come. It is impossible to buy it here!
Can't find it on-line, but just this week there was a news story about a Canadian who spent 18 months in Japan teaching English. It's a pretty commonplace thing really.
Upon his return he landed a job as a baggage handler at one of our airports. At least he thought he had until he was refused security clearance.
His sole mistake was living somewhere where the Canadian Security agencies felt that they couldn't verify his movements and activities while out of the country.
If you're considering government work you just might want to look into this ahead of time.
Three Squirrels
When I was considering a job there; I did a lot of research on their website and was also directed to sites and blogs regarding ex-patriates, and also State Department employees adjusting to life in the United States after being overseas for many years at a time - things like where to drive, and going to the market not being three or four stores but one giant Wal-Mart smack dab in the middle of town. Also, make use of all the job-search websites out there - monster.com, computerjobs.com, ajb.org, etc. I'll leave the rest of the research to you but these have helped me just adjusting from one *town* to another.
I think with the interesting people, their lives can't possibly be wrapped up into a nice little package.
I'd encourage you to try to get something in a big city, something on the West Coast, or in Hawaii, which has a big Japanese community.
I have a friend who married a woman from Estonia (they met in the Peace Corps) and brought her back to Nebraska. She signed up for the local university.
It was very hard on her, and she ended up dropping out. There were a fair number of foreign students at the university, but it's pretty provincial here, and she had a hard time blending in and making friends. She was very unhappy.
I've had friends in Chicago who fared better -- there are quite a few people from other countries living in Chicago. Even if they're not from the same place you are, you can still compare notes as immigrants. I knew some Russian people in Chicago, and a girl from Viet Nam who got along better.
One friend, married to a Russian woman, moved from Chicago to Brooklyn, and I think she's a lot happier there. She can go to Russian neighborhoods (even though they don't live in one), speak her native language, buy Russian food, etc. It helps.
Having said all of that, I used to know a Japanese woman who was here in Nebraska doing graduate work at the University, and she seemed to like it a lot. So it can be done.
But she had a clique of grad student immigrant friends -- a woman from Bangledesh, and another woman from South Korea -- and she was here studying Native American culture, so professionally it was a great place for her.
I don't want to say something sexist, but I think it's harder for women to make these moves sometimes -- they tend to be more plugged into groups of friends, more social. It's harder if you're following someone else, too, and not doing it for your own reasons.
I'd adivse you to try to give her as much support as possible -- shoot for a community where she can fit in. Don't move to Utah, even if you get the best offer there.
maybe you and your wife should watch the Japanese version of Lost in Translation!!
Slaves to a system? Have you ever been to Japan?
Kids live with their spouse and families in two bedroom apartments -- and have to commute hundreds of miles.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
preparing for culture shock (both my mild case and my wife's possibly severe one).
I wouldn't be so sure about who will experience the biggest shock. When you go somewhere new, you are mentally preparing yourself for this shock, but potentially the biggest shock of all comes when you go back.
At least in my case that was a big eye-opener.
Anecdotal, I know, but it wasn't something I expected.
And since you have been gone for 6 years, many things will have changed. Since change is slow and always present, it only becomes clear after watching something with a long time in between snapshots.
Because some people might actually love their country, and want to make it a place they can be proud of.
Back during the election cycle my wife showed me an interesting article about, "loving your country." A little child loves his/her mommy and daddy, and won't consider that mommy and daddy might actually be doing something wrong, or that they might need to change their ways. A mother and father love their child/children, realize they're not perfect, and that they need nurturing, love, praise, and discipline/correction as part of their process of growing up.
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
100mbps for $40 a month is hard to pass up... I'd kill to live where you are today.
If you don't like it, you can GEEET OUUUUT!
Karnal
In the words of the most excellent Cartman:
'Get the fudge out'
No I didnt spell check this post...
"Because some people might actually love their country, and want to make it a place they can be proud of."
Yes, I can see how making a detailed list of flaws is the best way to show your love of your country.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
"Love it or Leave it" is one of the most retarded and unhelpful (not to mention inappropriate) responses to criticisms of the US. My friends and family all live in the US. I want good things for them and for the US. Sure, there are much better places to live, but what I have, in terms of both stuff and people, is all here.
By quoting statistics and data that show the US is failing to achieve, people are hoping to spread awareness and interest in the hopes that people can and will work hard to change the US.
The US now is a superpower with nowhere to go but down, and we will fall, and continue to fall, unless we take the bold steps necessary to change our ways. Only through criticism and willingess to force change will we ever become the nation we think we are instead of the nation we really are.
If you hate the place so much, move. What's keeping you here?
The US now sees fit to enforce its laws even outside of its borders.
Raising awareness is one thing. Posting comments such as
is just being a troll. And yes I realize IHBT'd.
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
Best to pretend the flaws don't exist and then no actions need to be taken to fix them right?
I think the point being made is that this isn't working very well anymore.
No Comment.
What do you base your "commute hundreds of miles" comment off? I have friends that work in Tokyo, Osaka and a city in Hokkaido that I can't remember the name of, and their commutes are 20 miles or less.
As I walk through the valley of death I fear no one, for I am the meanest sonova bitch in the valley!
A few random thoughts...
Health insurance in the US is a giant pain in the ass compared to Japan. Try to shield your wife from this as much as possible by dealing with the paperwork. There will still come a day when some doctor's office gives her grief over some mundane insurance detail and she'll be furious at having to deal with this.
As you already know - customer service of all kinds is the US is a nightmare compared to what you are used to in Japan. This will bother you a little but drive your wife absolutely insane. Japanese people take it for granted that service workers do their job with politeness and a smile and as you know US customer service is hit or miss. On the other hand 24 hour stores in the US are way more convenient than Japanese convenience stores.
Japanese supermarkets in the US can be quite good depending on where you relocate.
Try to avoid friendships with Japanese in the US who are only here for a few years on overseas work assignments. As they go back to Japan it will devastate your wife. She'll do much better if she can meet Japanese women who are in the US to stay. This may be impossible at first but it might save her some homesick feelings. Even better would be to make some solid American friends but this isn't always going to happen right away.
The hardest part of culture shock is to stop trying to compare the two countries. There is always an urge to whine about some annoyance that is better here or better there. Try to avoid that urge and just accept the US for what it is and move one with life.
Good luck
Recognising flaws is the first step in fixing them.
It's not as great here as it was 10 years ago.
Look really close. There are too many variables that you have not accounted for in those "facts". Go read "How to lie with Statistics" sometime.
Many of those differences are within the statistical noise.
Others are accounted for by different ways of counting, remember many of these numbers come from the governments who have an advantage if they skew numbers. For example some countries do not count children under 2 in their child mortality rate counts.
Few countries have populations as large as the US, a uniform population with far less outriggers bringing everyone down. Drop Mississippi from the US, and our math standing goes way up. How would Europe fare if they were not only all averaged together, but Yugoslavia was added in. (I'm not sure if you would count Yugoslavia as part of Europe, but that should help you understand)
Are those tests of anything useful? You can do much better than me on a test to define a lot of math terms, but if that test doesn't include using the math to do proofs, or otherwise figure, it is meaningless.
Going slightly off-topic here, but... What on earth does IHBT stand for? I can't say I have a clue.
My opinion: There is a social breakdown happening in the U.S. now, and it is very difficult to live there. People are less relaxed and happy than in the last 50 years. It will be really, really difficult to adjust to living there.
I'd recommend moving to a location with a Japanese / Japanese-American Community. Los Angeles, San Francisco, Portland are all good choices. Having a comprehensible community available, especially one in various stages of assimilation, can make the transition easier for your wife. At least in these places, you'll be able to find acceptable tea, for example. The downside, of course, is that Real Estate is extremely pricey in these locations.
Other recommendations: keep some of your money in Yen. I know the Yen's not at its highest, but the dollar could continue to get weaker. Best to keep your options open.
I second what others have said about the INS. Just be aware that it can be Kafkaesque. Be patient and keep a sense of humor.
The tech job market is strange right now. There are jobs, but it's certainly not like '99. If you're good technically, you'll be able to find work. It may not be the kind of work that you'd prefer to do, but you're unlikely to starve. Again, be patient and keep a sense of humor.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachtani?
www.fogbound.net
Cousin to YHBT
Also, Institute of Himalayan Bioresource Technology (at least according to Google)
Beauty is in the eye of the beerholder.
Hawaii is going to be a really expensive place to move to with one of the highest costs of living in the country. Unless you can garuntee yourself a decent paying job and housing you don't want to move there to start off.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
If I were you, I would consider an area like Detroit. We have large immigrant communities. And there are several large Japanese businesses (mostly auto) here that are always looking for multilingual employees. I would highly consider Windsor, Ontario as well which is accross the river from downtown Detroit.
Don't forget that in the USA, public schools HAVE to take ALL students that want in. In most European countries (notably Germany), the schools don't have to take you if you don't get at elast a certain grade on tests. Essentially filtering out those who would drag down the scores to begin with. The USA doesn't do this, hence the score are lower.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Conditions in the U.S. are worse than you are saying. The bottom and middle parts of the U.S. government often function well, but the top part of the government is thoroughly corrupted by conflict of interest.
U.S. citizens often live in a mental fantasy land in which they view themselves as the best, and cannot hear anything else. Politicians manipulate this. Look at most of the replies to your comment. Most involve some illogical trick to avoid examining the problems. Many U.S. citizens believe that they are so superior that it is entirely okay that their government's foreign policy depends on killing people to solve problems, rather than actually solving the problems.
The U.S. government has fought 24 wars since World War II. The system of violence works by creating fear so rich people can profit.
The U.S. government is being sold to anyone who has the money. Huge amounts of money are being borrowed and transferred to the pockets of those in power. The U.S. government is now far more in debt than ever before: Debt Clock. If you are a U.S. citizen, you are expected to pay. Those who want corruption in the U.S. government want the government to borrow. The corrupters find ways to transfer the money to their pockets.
The origin of the present problems was in the 40s and 50s, when U.S. government leaders made two decisions. It is likely that those in power then did not understand that their decisions would eventually corrupt the entire government. At the time, the decisions seemed logical.
First, the government decided that it could act in other countries in secret. Second, the U.S. government decided it could act in secret to protect U.S. businesses in other countries.
What probably no one realized then was how much that would come to be a corrupting influence on the government. Probably no one realized then how much additional profit big multinational businesses could make by arranging, in secret, for U.S. taxpayers to pay for the security arrangements needed by U.S. multinational businesses.
Soon huge businesses were arguing that the U.S. government should subvert democratically elected leaders, as the government did in Iran in 1953. Soon U.S. businesses would arrange unfair contracts with corrupt leaders, and when there was a protest, call for U.S. government intervention in the name of patriotism.
That's partly how we got to the present situation, where two men, whose family and business associates and friends have extensive investments in global oil businesses, are president and vice-president of the entire U.S. government, even though there is conflict of interest in such an arrangement.
So, how exactly does your mass of statistics address the question?
Too bad we can't moderate this with (-1, shameless plagiarism)... see the original.
.sig: file not found
'Cause no one has ever said that Nippon is ichiban.
Idot.
-Peter
You're a World Citizen. Be one.
Unless you've got a reason (sounds like you don't) to go 'back to the US of A', why not consider the options.
If you can handle 4 years in the Air Force, and Life In Japan, with a Wife In Japan, then the answer is obvious: move to Germany.
Globalization is a reality. There is no way we can prevent the New World Order from fruition. So, use it.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
If you want to come back to North America, give Canada a look. No, seriously. Toronto, Vancouver, Ottawa, etc. are close enough to the border to make a quick jaunt into Bush's Kingdom possible, but they're still not US territory (yet).
I know, let's get all of the smart, thoughtful Americans to move to Japan. That should fix America really quick. Right.
Don't blame me; I'm never given mod points.
Yes. Why move? Is there any reason other than the US is where _you_ came from? Job? Something else? Why not just visit now and than to get your U.S.A. fix?
"Who are in control, they are not in control of anything - they don't even control themselves!" - Glen Beck
Saying that our nation is statistically indistinguishable from the other countries on the planet is hardly a stunning endorsement, and certainly doesn't imply that we're the "Greatest nation on Earth."
My best advice is to go back to the places you know the best, whether it is a region of the US, a particular state, or a locality.
As far as your wife is concerned (I'm assuming she's Japanese), you'll want to get her involved in something so that she meets new people and makes new friends. That is going to be critical, otherwise she'll be asking to go back.
And I'd make sure your finances are in order so that you can live for a while in the US without a job. It may take some time to find the right fit. Otherwise, interview from overseas and come over only when you have a job.
The radical sect of Islam would either see you dead or "reverted" to Islam.
As an Airman stationed in Japan (Yokota AB as a ground rat), I can outline a few of the things that turned out to be minor "gotchas" when I came here-- which may also catch you heading back to the states.
One, of course, is the driving thing. Be warned, the whole "right side of the road" thing will get you for a while. Be prepared to signal with your windshield wipers.
Two-- expect to have at least one car. I know a lot of folks in Japan who don't own cars because the public transit system (particularly the train system) is sufficient. It's inexpensive, it's widespread, and it's relatively reliable. Don't expect public transit in the States unless you're in a big city-- and even then, you probably shouldn't rely on it exclusively.
Three-- sticker shock. So much stuff is more expensive over here in Japan. Nothing wrong with that, but expect to pay a lot less for some items in the U.S. Electronics, bicycles, cars, books, food, music, you name it-- it's usually quite a bit cheaper stateside. A dollar can probably go about ten to twenty cents further in the states than in Japan (of course, that also fluctuates slightly with the Yen rate-- which has been abysmal lately due to the weakening dollar).
Minor things to consider-- grocery shopping in the states is more often a weekly thing, not a daily thing. Nothing to stop you and your wife from shopping daily, but it will be a little harder to find some of the smaller portions you might be used to here. Traffic in Tokyo is about ten thousand times crazier than traffic in Los Angeles (I've done both). If you were thinking about having kids, remember that large numbers of American schools are crap compared to Japanese schools.
Food for thought. I love Japan, and I love the States-- staying in Japan or moving back stateside are both good ideas, if you ask me.
I work with 3 Japanese programmers and two Indian programmers (the reason I mention the Indian programmers is because they also have the same comments).
By far, the biggest comment all of my co-workers have about the culture change, is that Americans are "uncomfortably" informal. My Japanese couterparts mentioned that it took them several years to adjust to the way Americans speak to eachother. You may also find that some Americans are somewhat uncomfortable with "over-politeness" (or our perception of it, anyway).
Finally, both Indian programmers mentioned that their Indian born and raised wives still have a very difficult time building meaningful friendships with American women. I don't know that I can speak as to why, specifically. But I can only imagine that the role of women in the United States must be very different than most other countries.
You will most likely experience a greater deal of culture shock than your wife.
Reason? She expects America to be a strange and foreign place.
You will expect it to be the same as it was when you last left it. If you haven't visited in 10 years, it's going to hit you a lot harder than it will your wife.
I spent four years stationed in Germany in the mid-Eighties and loved it so much I didn't bother coming home. When I did finally return I spent a week walking around in a daze. It seemed as if I had been frozen in time and America had raced forward at her usual breakneck pace. The only thing that hadn't changed were all my high school friends still living at home with their parents. . . I suffered from some serious cognitive dissonance that week.
Thankfully, I was between assignments and two weeks later I was in England, where I stayed for another three years before returning to the U.S. again.
Prepare yourself now. Instead of looking forward to seeing everything as it was when you left it, tell yourself how excited you'll be to see all the changes since you left. This is what I did on every return visit and it helped a lot.
As far as work goes, take a look at America's Job Bank.
It's got some good resources for veterans, especially if you have a high-demand skill and it can give you a good gauge of where the jobs are at and how much they're paying.
I spent eleven years overseas and loved every minute of it, but despite her faults, America is still the country with the most freedom and most opportunity for everyone.
Good luck and welcome home!
JimUSAF 1980-2004
"I worked hard for it. I deserve it. And I have it," Campbell said. "It's all mine."
hear, hear.
[o]_O
On the grounds where that is true you are correct. However there are millions (billions? more?) of factors in comparing a nation.
Example: Few nations have religious freedom. (Check your local laws, many countries have only one legal religion, they just choose to ignore followers of the others) That along is enough for some people to call the US better than most. (though it doesn't cover the few that do have true religious freedom)
Greatest just means that after comparing the priorities list of all the good and bad parts about each nation, the US comes out on top. It is possible that the US would come out on top overall despite not making the top-10 in any category (of the millions) if the US didn't have any real strong downsides while all the rest did. And of course this is all in the opinion of the evaluator, so how you come up with something is different from me.
P.S. Where have I ever called the US the greatest nation on earth? I've never ran for office so such touchy-feelie statements have never been important to me.
I leave the exercise of Swiftian irony in completing these thoughts to you, the reader.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Bravo, my sentiments exactly. The mainstream media always conveniently omit this fact from their articles.
"Lack of technical competence coupled with the arrogance of power, as usual, leads to no good end."
I didn't mean to imply that you had. I was warping back to the beginning of this thread, where the fellow posted an enormous list of reasons why we aren't.
Taco Bell stopped selling Santa Fe Chicken Gorditas.
"Be Happy or Die." -- AoN
Slashdot is not the place to waste the time of the readers of this site with answering one persons personal question. That persons question should have been sent to a newsgroup or something and not broadcast to everyone. Its just a waste of time for the countless people who cannot relate to that persons problem.
It appears as if you may have missed the entire point of the AskSlashdot section.
Here's a fun one : unless her Engrish is already really, really good (ie, you guys speak English at home all the time) she will go through a phase during which she is thinking in her native language, translating on the fly back and forth to English during conversations. Discussions will be quite a bit slower with people not familiar with her accent (and with whom she isn't used to either.)
... after about three years you can count on a radical change in life at home. Everybody says 'no way, not my wife' and three years later everybody says 'damn, Glo was right.'
Then comes the worst part - after about a year of speaking nothing but English and thinking in English she will forget some of her native language. She won't realize it until she calls home or goes back for a visit - but that's a freaky issue to deal with.
Finally, the first three years will be great - she will be the same wonderful person she is now. Your friends will see how happy you are and you know they just have to screw it up - Americans can't stand to see an obedient wife. Between subversion from your friends (esp your friends' wives) and watching Oprah while you are at work each day
Finally, if she doesn't already drive - send her to driving school. Those guys are professionals that can keep order in a car full of 16 year olds, they are calm enough to handle teaching her to drive (which would send you into a daily freak-show panic, introducing discord and unharmonic vibes into the family.)
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
i laughed anyway.
this has got to be the worst advice ever. doesn't germany have like 14% unemployment or something horrible? the US only has 5% unemployment.
I Have Been Trolled it's from an older abbreviation YHBT, YHL, HAND (You Have Been Trolled, You Have Lost, Have A Nice Day).
Degaussing scares the bad magnetism out of the monitor and fills it with good karma.
Alright, so, maybe I'm not the most qualified person to give you advice, but I did move from a lifetime spent in eastern France to Southern California two summers ago. 1: Make sure you bring food with you in a move. If you've got a sizeable amount of items you're bringing with you people won't open the container with all your stuff (especially for US citizens). Bring in canned goods, and anything you don't expect to find here. 2: as mentioned in the first reply, trips back to Japan are going to happen, whatever you think of it. 3: power adapters/converters. I don't know what Japan uses for voltage, but France uses 240 V, the US 110V. Make sure you have powerful power converters for them. Frequency differences (50 Hz in France, 60 Hz in US) will wreck your stereo equipment, so if you know there's a frequency difference, don't bring that stuff, the tape players are especially sensitive (happened on all 3 stereos we brought with us, 2 were sony, one was a pioneer, all in perfect shape). TV: afaik, Japan uses NTSC, but double check, and again, voltage/frequency sensitive equipment. 4: computers: not an issue, if they're laptops, the power adapters should be able to handle any power you plug them into. Desktops: about $30 for a new supply if there's a voltage difference and no voltage selector on your current ones. 5: Data storage. Travelling can destroy some of your data. Containers on ships have temps that reach up to 60 degrees Celsius, high enough to damage any CDR you have with you. Bring them on the plane, ideally in carry-on luggage (assuming it's not 500 disks). pressed and audio CDs will be fine. Backup your hard drives before hand, even external ones can lose data while travelling. 6: computer screens. check your existing ones to see what power input they accept. If they're frequency sensitive (CRTs most likely) then better buy a new one here. LCDs are more likely to handle frequency differences, unlike CRTs. 7: washing machine, dishwasher, dryer, fridge. Most people selling houses/appartments in the US sell those appliances too. We even got 2 TVs in addition to the whole set. 8: closets/wardrobe furniture. Americans seem to prefer walk-in closets in houses. I don't know about appartments, but bringing over too many shelves or stand-alone closets can be a hindrance, because it's a pain to get rid of them. 9: internet connectivity. Make sure you get the net as soon as you get a computer setup. It's muc cheaper to use msn audio or skype when you want to talk to people across an ocean. Skype even lets you call regular landlines/cellphones from the computer, provided you pay a fee, much cheaper for international calls. 10: washing machines and dryers in the US are basically very clothing unfriendly. If you have delicate clothing, spend $1000 on a decent machine. Same for the dryers, only they're a little cheaper. American machines are basically 20 years old in technology compared to european/japanese machines. Get a german machine (can't remember the brand name), they're the "rolls of the washing machines". 11: choosing where to go. If I were you, I'd look for a job in the country first, then locate lodging in that area, then plan a move. Trips to the US for interviews and house hunting mandatory. It also helps identify what the culture shock will be like, and prepare accordingly. 12: cars. Most used cars in large traffic areas are automatic transmissions. LA: about 95% of cars are automatics. Portland, ME: 95% cars are manual. Depending on what your preference is, you'll have more or less trouble finding used cars with the kind of transmission you like. I'll never willingly drive an automatic, but I was taught to drive on a manual. If you buy a new car, no problem there, but expect imported cars to be on average more expensive than US cars. Lots of people bash Ford, but they made a real comeback with the Focus. Lots of people will tell you it's a small car, but coming from Japan where parking space is sort of an issue, I doubt you'll be used to seeing pick-ups and SUVs accounting for a fifth of the automob
---- I am certain of only one thing : I know nothing else.
What are you talking about?
I spent the last 4 years abroad and experienced a fair amount of culture shock on return. Your wife will know what she's in for... you might not expect it.
I ended up finding an international social organization ("for those living abroad and their friends") which helped significantly. All of us were going through the same thing and they didn't flinch when I said (for the millionth time) "It's not what I'm used to!"
In the end, I decided moving back was a mistake. I'm back abroad trying to find a job. I hope your move goes better than mine.
Nothing, but immigrating (legally, anway..) to other countries isn't as simple as walking across the boarder. It's a long drawn out process. And is it just me, or do most countries tend to look at Americans coming to live in thier country the same way Americans look at Mexicans moving into the US.
Dude....
Yugoslavia doesn't exist!
I pity all the Americans I see protesting "we're not ALL totally unaware of the world outside our borders", when people like you keep giving us Europeans reason to believe the stereotype ;)
In spite of being the whitest state in the nation, we're a rather tolerant state. From direct knowledge, the Burlington area has large and diverse immigrant communities, including Bosnian, Indian, Viet Namese, Sudanese, etc. Many are refugees who have settled here. The real estate prices are high, but in many respects the state is "backward" compared to the rest of the country, and I like that. (Think last state in the Union to get a Wal Mart, only state capital to not have a McDonalds.)
The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
greencard already issued or better?
I hope so....
if not, start with a good immagration lawyer in your new home town/area/same ins district NOW!
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
Andy Grove is quoted as saying: "Every generation thinks that they invented sex"
Vocal democrats and "progressives" are echoing the same crap as they did in 1960 or 1930 or 1900. US society is full of inequities, injustices and plain stupidity, but those are things that come with all human societies.
If you think that the Netherlands, UK, Australia, Switzerland, Japan or whatever place you consider perfect are utopian societies, you are aptly demonstrating that you ARE the ignorant american that you dislike so much.
While you and your friends are screaming about Bush or the collapse of american society, you miss the benefits you take advantage of as an american.
You fail to mention your Federally-guaranteed student loans and cheap mortgages. You don't bitch about the highways that whisk you to your suburban home or the miracle drugs discovered thanks to government research.
I hate small-minded people. Particularly those who have nothing to do other than criticize and nothing to contribute over hot air. Right-wing, left-wing, a vapid windbag is a vapid windbag.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
If the USA were to become more like other countries,
then choice would be more limited. It is really nice
that the USA is different from the European norm.
It's not just that you should get out of the USA if
you don't like it. Europeans are welcome to come
to the USA if they prefer the US life. Here they
can buy lots of guns, choose their healthcare or
decide to take chances to save money, say that
Darl McBride is a crook (if true) without a
UK-style libel lawsuit, etc.
If people like you ever succeed, there will be
less choice in the world. Every country becomes
a clone of every other, with no place to escape.
Actually in most European countries, state-run schools are required to take all local students unless there are extraordinary circumstances (e.g. exclusion due to prior explusion or criminal behaviour).
As I have heard from my German Language teacher (who is German) many european coutnries are required to accept everyone at the elementary level, but then start filtering students out at teh junior high (Secondary) and high school (primary) level. I would like to hear more, with specific countries referenced if you post again.
Also, interesting point you bring up on the prior expulsion/criminal behavior. In the USA it is almost impossible (due to some courts) to expel a student. Students have asaulted teachers and the parents have sued to keep them in the schools and won (yes, I know it is messed up, I would love to have it changed).
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
It's the biggest city in the Southeast. The Southeast is known for a lower cost-of-living. For the most part, you get the benefits of big city life (Theatre's, Amusements, Concerts, etc) for less than you'd get in places like L.A., NY, or Chicago. The pay is pretty good (relatively), yet your average daily expenses will be lower (ex. a Gallon of Milk won't cost you an arm and a leg).
It's a big with a warm/Southern feel and suprisingly, there is a significant amount of very intelligent people around here. Granted, it's no San. Fran., but it's probably your best compromise (the beach is only 2 hours away, if you're into [legal] watersports).
Don't think that a small group of dedicated individuals can't change the world. It's the only thing that ever has.
Yes. This is the same in Japan... sort of. Everyone goes to school, but if you do not get into the right high school (kou-kou), you can't get into a good college. This sometimes even starts at the junior high level (chugakkou). My friend's kid has been going to juku (a cram school after regular school) for two or three years preparing to take the entrance exams for different high schools she'd like to attend.
Two weeks ago she failed three tests and passed two. She made it into a pretty good school in Tokyo, but at what cost?
3cx.org - A truly bad website.
San Francisco has a pretty large Japanese population as well, complete w/ its own Japantown and Kinokuniya mall. Even outside of school, I hear Japanese almost every day.
Very true..
Big slabs of that are now Japanese-owned, and the laws are marginally less insane in Oz than in the US. So far.
Got time? Spend some of it coding or testing
Yugoslavia ceased to exist in 2003.
;-)
Assuming you're american, I wonder what happened to the numbers if one averaged you out of the statistics
you don't see school boards or education departments in Europe or Japan watering down science curriculums to please some obnoxious pig-ignorant religious fanatics, which happens all the damn time in the US.
"If it's real, then it gets more interesting the closer you examine it. If it's not real, just the opposite is true." -
Because some people might actually love their country, and want to make it a place they can be proud of.
Yes, but clearly not enough Americans do love their country, and even if there were more, it would be a guaranteed, forgone conclusion, that they wouldn't work together to achieve a common goal.
70+Million people didn't turn out to vote. Almost 2/3rds' of your country believes it has no bearing on the politics of your great nation.
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
Ah, was thinking about this and just figured out how to compare the cost of living in the USA. The Military has an adjustment for paychecks that get applied based on their cost of living index. It is higher in various areas than others such as New York (city), the Washington DC area, California and some others. In Hawaii, it is also up there. However, one thing with Hawaii is that they really can't keep up with the prices so the encourage/require everyone to live on base.
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Wow, some of you are pretty harsh. I can't speak for the poster who originated this particular thread, but I can speak for my original post derived from it. I don't necessarily want the US to be "like" other countries. I just want the US to be a better place to live. I want the US to improve itself to better meet my needs, and to better meet the needs I perceive this nation to have. It's a selfish focus, yes, but at the same time, who among us cannot claim to be somewhat self-motivated?
Besides that, there are certain relatively undisputed components, here. In much of the US, spending on education is low and so is the quality of educational instruction (pre-college, that is). Does putting more money into education and rethinking our educational system mean that it's going to end up just like Europe's system, or whoever else's system? No. It doesn't have to mean that.
We can use the positive qualities of other nations and alter those modes to match out needs without simply copycatting. The US has shown itself, as a nation, capable of integrating and personalizing information as it relates to politics and society. In recent years I feel we, as a nation, have become very lax and too easily influenced by powerful and organized minority groups, but that doesn't mean the rest of us should just clam up and get the hell out. It means we need to work harder to point out our shortcoming and then do the voting and debating and work necessary to try and shore up those shortcomings.
And the end result, whatever it may be, will be uniquely American, and hopefully an improvement over what we are now.
If you hate the place so much, move. What's keeping you here?
So trying to change it isn't an option then? Running away from your problems isn't a good way to live...
I'm a generalist. A bit code / scripting, bit of DBA, bit of general server admin, bit of help desk, bit of FPS champ, etc. This is both my strength and weakness. The company I work for gave me a rather strange title called a "Technologist". I think a more apt title was "Tech Gimp".
The reason I know about Denver, CO is my team was determining where to locate a new data center and who would be willing relocate. I voted for Denver. Financial reasons drove the data center out to Phoenix, AZ. Even with extremely cheap housing in Phoenix, there just was not enough Asian culture to keep my family happy.
I appreciate the offer and have to turn it down. I've pretty much committed to hopping over to Japan. Hopefully the company I work for will let me do extreme telecommuting, with me flying in for a week every two months. Otherwise I'm striking it out on my own or joining my sister in law in her technology consulting business. (I'm willing to consider your offer if you let me telecommute (grins).)
But don't forget the culture shock you might experience when relocating to another country. see http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/03/03/17 23213 for more on this subject.
Relocating to a country that has culture can be frightening.
Aware of the difference? Certainly. However, the topic at hand is immigration into the United States, so using the European interpretation would be moronic, no?
A typical example would be Saudia Arabia, who give statistics excluding women, and only refer to children in school. As the poor don't go to school, they are not counted. But YES, the male Saudi Arabians that go to school have a 99% literacry rate.
America has it's fair share of problems, but it has one MAJOR benefit: we count everybody we can, so we try to make the entire country better off, not just those who are already middle class. In general it is a far better place to live than the majority of other places in the world, assuming you include a full urban/rural average and don't "forget" to include included citizens.
excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
actually germany has more public debt (64.2% of GDP in 2003) than the states.
o s/ gm.htmlb ook/geos/ us.html
things just aren't growing over there recently and i don't think 2004 was much better for germany than 2003. i hope old europe loosens the grip of the labor unions and gets back to a good growing economy though, because its dragging the rest of us down.
Germany:
GDP - real growth rate: -0.1% (2003)
GDP - per capita: $27,600 (2003)
United States:
GDP - real growth rate: 3.1% (2003)
GDP - per capita: $37,800 (2003)
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ge
http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/fact
This is inexcusable - and is symptomatic of how deeply disinformed the U.S. public is. these are a sleeping people - dangerous if roused from dreaming.
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
yeah, like i trust the CIA world fact book any more, yo!
[hint: personal experience.]
; -- the corruption of government starts with its secrets. a truly free people keep no secrets. --
So instead of trying to learn about the issues on both sides of the fence you simply choose to hate or make yourself appear better than those you don't understand?
I would have taken your feeling much more seriously if you didn't use the terms hate, small-minded and alike to describe something you obviously don't understand.
Byron Miller for Congress.
I'm glad mortgages are cheap in your area, they're not in SoCal. Oh, if you mean interest rates they haven't always been under 6% and they won't continue to be there either.
Do you mean those highways that are full of potholes like I40 because there aren't enough Federal funds to fix them?
Do you mean those drugs that are released way too early because the FDA is full of scientists with massive conflict of interest with pharmaceutical companies?
The meme police, They live inside of my head
In most of the Bundesländer, after fourth or fifth grade you are divided into three possibilites: the "Hauptschule" (which stresses survival skills and preparing you for blue-collar labor), the "Realschule" (which has a certain level of academic standing -- it could get you into a technical institute or such), and the "Gymnasium" (which is university-bound, assuming you pass the exit exams). You will occasionally have a bright kid who was lazy in the first couple years of elementary school and then is all but doomed to a life of uneducated labor. (It is possible to take several years of labor experience and get into a night-"Realschule", and so forth.) In most areas, you must attend school until age 16 in one of the three types. However, Germany just did rather poorly in international exams of mathematical and other abilities, in large part because the "Hauptschule" people don't learn much of anything besides car repair, cheese-making, construction work, or the like. There are now some discussions about waiting with the division until later. Others defend the current system...
look up your own dumb facts then. or better yet just keep on trusting your intuition. who really needs facts anyway.
IANAL but I've been through a similar situation.
If the wife attempts to enter the country, she is considered an "intending immigrant" due to the fact that she is married to a US citizen. We weren't aware of this when my wife left the country after we were married and returned. She (unintentionally) avoided disclosing the fact that she was married to a US citizen upon her re-entry. We didn't know of the rule at that time, and when we filed her paperwork, we had to file a special form and pay some some of fine/fee. Basically it was an admission of ignorance and an offering to the immigration gods. IIRC, the fine/fee was around $150. I'm not advising anyone to lie or conceal the truth relating to legal immigration matters, but if it did happen, it may make things easier for some people.
The poster that mention entering the country in a less busy region is also correct. I think the INS (whoever they are now) publishes average wait times for each office. Consider though that you may need to continue dealing with that office for interview, fingerprinting etc. Check it out before you make your decision on your destination.
Also, get an attorney. The paperwork is simpler than a typical tax return, but an honest mistake can cost you _years_ in waiting for a re-filed application. The attorney is worth it. I think we paid $2000 or so for the whole thing (tax, title, insurance, dealer fees, marketing adjustment, pinstripes, etc). Somewhere around $700-$900 of that is government fees.
If she enters the US, applies for PR status and needs to leave before status if granted, she can apply for "advance parole". Don't apply until it's needed.
The interview for us was a piece of cake. Took us about 15 minutes. As soon as the interview is complete, the officer stamps the passport with PR status (with an expiry date) and that's as good as a green card. The green card will show up in the next 12-24 months. Don't lose it. A replacement took us 14 months.
Of course nobody has ever said that. I imagine it's more along the lines of, "Nippon wa ichiban desu." [/pedantic_asshead]
...and what's an Idot?
It would be cool if it didn't suck.
We have a large Japanese-American community here, great weather (even though it's raining outside right now), a decent enough public transit system that you'll be able to get around (for a little bit) until you can get a car - though it won't be fun.
There is a wonderful, relaxing atmosphere here, with a multi-cultural and well-balanced lifestyle. We're also still a military town, with an Army and Marine station in the county, which allows for a nice political balance (not as wacky as LA or SF, but not red-state hickville either).
Internet and technology concerns are wonderful here... lots of cheap bandwidth, 4Mbps to my house for $40/month, and one of the highest concentration of biotech and hi-tech firms in the country.
Things to watch out for are: cost of goods and services; and, especially in SoCal, cost of housing. It's sky-high here, and even many locals are having problems finding affordable places to live.
In exchange for that, you'll get a wonderful location, with tons of amenities, the amazing Balboa Park, Sea World, and Zoo.... and, er, um... great taco shops every 1/4 mile.
Hope this helps...
Hire a Linux system administrator, systems engineer,
While you and your friends are screaming about Bush or the collapse of american society, you miss the benefits you take advantage of as an american.
So your response to people who voice their own ideas is, "pipe down, you've been given enough already"?
1: Get a lawyer specializing in immagration. Give him money, let him deal.
or
2: Contact you local US consulate. Ask to speak with someone with regards yous situation. there are special visa types for this, K and V visas, which are different from standard immagant and non immagrant visas. One is for fiancee(no, i cant spell it) and one is for spouses. Long story short, there will be a crapload of paperwork, but as long as your wife dosent have amajor criminal record, and the offiicer doing the inerview dosent think the marrage is a scam, youll get her in. look up the process on the internet to figure out a little bit of what you need, at a minimum shell have to apply for the visa at teh consualte, and youll both be interviewed briefly, and shell have to have her fingerprints scanned. Also, if you are planning on doing this legally from the outset, DO NOT DO NOT DO NOT lie to the consular officer or try to fake anything. If you try and scam them, and they catch you, you are pretty much fucked forever.
All Troll + "offtopic" mods are meta moderated as "Unfair", because you abused the system.
Gee, how lucky an American is to get those loans. Until they complete their education and can't get a high enough salary to pay them off. (Particularly when they can thank gov't policy for helping flush the economy down the drain.)
Cheap mortgages is a function of market forces, not being American. Once the world stops buying US treasury bonds, Bush sucessfully privatizes Social Security (again removing capital from US treasury bonds), oil cartels use Euros instead of dollars, and the bills start coming due for Iraq, one of two things is going to happen. Skyrocketing inflation, or skyrocketing interest rates. That means America will not be the land of cheap mortgages. And your platitudes about cheap mortgages does not mean jack for the single mother having two minimum wage jobs, etc. (Are you so f**king stupid that I have to spell out why?)
No, I bitch about the lack of or shoddy public transportation to whisk me to my suburban home. Because when the economic downcycle hits, people won't be able to either afford or operate cars, or afford houses beyond the reach of their workplaces. What good are miracle drugs to the American when they can't afford to buy them? (When they have to chose between paying the bills or eating, to getting medication, that means you can't afford the medication.) I think its a wash anyway. The pharmaceutical industry has bribed the gov't to approve drugs with little benefit, or health deteriorating side effects, so no point in being able to afford drugs that will end up killing me.
A concept we appear to share. Its quite obvious if there was such a thing as a utopian state, that's where I'd be headed. But no matter what nation I was a citizen of, I would not support the slaughter of human beings of Arabic descent to protect me from WMD that doesn't exist. Ask me later if we actually grow the balls to invade North Korea. Nor do I think the wellbeing or "freedom" of those Arabs is worth shedding a single drop of American blood (particularly from a reservist coerced into going to Iraq to shed it). Nor am I volunteering to pay the taxes in order to have a military fiasco in Iraq so some rich stockholders in Halliburton can steal my money.
I wish I could get away with shooting people who are so incredibly stupid, they get all their information from a drug addict on the radio, or news agencies which are shills for the military industrial complex, work two jobs, lose their house, and beleive that its all the fault of people who bitch against Bush and Republicans because they are capable of at least using their common sense. You dumbassed punk, you have no idea what hatred is.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Those Europeans may have a point. Can you beat or bore kids into being educated? Why should society subsidize mediocrity by insisting to retain kids that refuse to behave or perform in school? What is accomplished?
I think the key here is recognising while a child has the right to access to education, they lose that right when they disrupt the class, or the right to proceed to the next grade if they do not meet educational requirements.
There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
Have you travelled outside of the USA? To the Netherlands, UK, Australia, or Switzerland (I haven't been to Japan so can't comment there)? It sounds like you haven't. There is way more equity in those nations than ours, and along with that equity comes less social anxiety and less desire to get rich quick by unethical means. I'm glad mortgages are cheap in your area, they're not in SoCal. Oh, if you mean interest rates they haven't always been under 6% and they won't continue to be there either.
As someone who has visited those places and lived abroad, I can tell you first hand that there are a LOT less inequities in the US for non-whites than say Europe. At least in the US, you often have a way of fighting back.
And don't know about your data on getting rich quick. People are trying to do that there too. Why in the world is Citibank having such a big problem in the German and Italian bond market? Those guys in the UK sure sounded like they were trying to get rich quick when they dumped eurozone bonds to destabilize the market so they could buy them back cheaper. And I don't remember Parmalat being so ethical when they filed for the largest bankruptcy Italy has every seen because they were cooking their books.
Working in the secondary mortgage market, I can tell you first hand that California mortgage rates are on par with the rest of the country. The houses are expensive but the mortgages cost the same or nearly the same. If you're not getting good rates, then you're not going to the right bank or your credit is crappy. Fannie and Freddie have no problems whatsoever buying mortgages in California and, in fact, the vast majority of their market is in California. Sure, it's unlikely that interest rates will stay that low, but they are a hell of a lot cheaper and easier to get in the US than they are in most other countries.
Hee hee! I LOVE the smell of leftist despair in the morning!
I supported Bush for a lot of good reasons, but the icing on the cake is getting to watch hard-left malcontents like you come totally unhinged. It's like that movie Scanners where people's heads explode. It will be most entertaining to watch you pinko scum suffer through the next four years as the New Deal is demolished.
By the way, if you really want to abandon electoral politics and proceed to armed revolution, bring it on. Have you forgotten how well-armed we fascist hyenas are? You skinny little hippies would last about as long as the smelly Greenpeace filth that invaded the London commodities exchange last month, and got a thorough and well-deserved ass-kicking.
Get used to being marginalized. The masses are on our side now. You and your kind are gathering flies on the dung heap of history. We only tolerate your noisy bitching as a form of entertainment, a demonstration of how truly great and strong and tolerant this country is, that it can allow such nonsense from malcontents and idle dreamers. You're mere court jesters now. The collectivist experiment has failed, and capitalist individualism reigns supreme. Devil take the hindmost.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
Only surprising to people who believe one's accent is tied to one's intelligence, or that you have to go to a New England prep school or Ivy League college to be smart. I think that kind of person is showing more stupidity than the "hicks" he is making fun of.
-ccm
Too much Law; not enough Order.
damn skippy! In any case, if anybody really thinks about it, Don't they realize that everybody really falls someplace in the middle? I'd hate to actually agree with Jon Stewart, because he IS a self-admitted vapid windbag...but partisan politics really is "hurting america".
sometimes, i wonder if i'm the only conservative on teh intarweb. ah well, back to mah hogs and warmongerin'....
Why don't you read the post and think before mouthing off?
The loudmouths of partisan politics aren't speaking for any side -- they're shooting for the least common demominator. Conservatives mutter about pro-life, low taxes and self-determination and get votes, Liberals mutter about pro-choice, the end of the world (since Bush was elected) and maybe something about healthcare or education.
I respect politicians like Al Smith, Theodore Roosevelt, Robert Moses and FDR. Men who actually stood for something and actually gave a damn about someone.
Since you're running for office, you should read about the courageous and brilliant politicans of the past. Don't limit yourself to the US, the UK, Ireland, Australia, India and tons of other places have people worth reading about.
You'll notice the marked dissilimilarity between those people and the puppets in Washington and on TV.
Conformity is the jailer of freedom and enemy of growth. -JFK
Check The Panda's Thumb for the latest antics of the creationists. Most of the material pertains to official actions from fundies trying to pass off "intelligent design" as science, but you also hear about fundie teachers doing it one class at a time and occasionally someone will relate a tale of how difficult it is for teachers to actually teach evolution without having some fundie's kid argue that it's all an atheist plot to deny God.
Time is Nature's way of keeping everything from happening at once... the bitch.
Germany enforces its speech prohibitions even against residents of North America. (Against Holocaust denialists, but think of the precedent.)
Sustainability and energy independence essay
If you add Yugoslavia as a statistic - nothing would change.
Yugoslavia does not exists.
Slovenia with its capital Ljubljana and seaside Piran is a wonderful place - and I would recomend it as more interesting than most of the US.
As for Croatiam, Bosnia & Herzegovina I can't say - haven't been there.
AIK
More than anything else - the problem in the US is that the government doles out services in globally liquid funds.
Stop giving checks - start providing SERVICES. services create jobs and keep the money in town for another turn at the wheel.
Checks go straight to china in the first transaction.
The problem here isn't test scores - it how single issue republican voters have allowed manufactoring to leave the country. - mostly to please china.
Its how the democratic party made a bad bet on Welfare - instead of investing in the poor - it merely bought their vote with cash money.
AIK
I think we need to chooose between "everyone gets mediocrity" - or creating a competative workforce.
If by competative - we mean globally - we'd better find the students with capacity and prepare them to defend this country economically.
It's fine to have a bunch of "Its a hoot to shoot" f*cking morons with guns at the border, but the reality is that the defense of any nation will be economic in nature in this century - much more than ya-hoo marines.
AIK
We'd also better find a rather consistent number in every community.
AIK
Any flaw which can be hidden from others doesn't exists - particularly if only a few people are affected.
;-)
Might mean a couple of lynchings here and there - but I would say you've hit on the meaning of "Southern Hospitality"
I'll pretend if you pretend
AIK
The car needs a new engine, and isn't safe to drive until then.
i think its good advice to take another ride - while we fix this one.
BTW - I was arrested for picking up litter in the south - I know whereof I speak.
AIK
I would mod this funny if I had any points, but that's just me. :)