Slashdot Mirror
Israeli Army Frowns on D&D
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
I like D&D. But after seeing some of those pics (before the slashdot effect), I frown on it too!
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Heck, you'd think they'd get a leg up for it--for example, as D&D precludes any and all contact with females, they run no risk of sexual transgression whatsoever!
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
My level 12 Galil with plumbum bullets strike down the level 4 suicide bomber. 100EXP and 12GP. :D
Wait 'til you hear what they do to recruits who admit they read Slashdot!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army? I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart. In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders. Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???
Judging from the article, it seems that the IDF is frowning upon LARPers, not D&Ders per se.
At least, that's what I get from all the pictures and quotations like "[soon] hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy."
Players are always trying to peek behind the DM's screen so they can see what's coming up next. Cheating on the dice rolls, making up munchkin characters, sneaking a look at the monster manual, etc. Untrustworthy, the whole lot of em.
but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
"They're really smart. They must know what they're talking about."
One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.
WTF? "Game the system"? If you play D&D you realize that "gaming the system" gets you in Shitsville with the game referee (the much maligned "Dungeon Master"). So if anything, D&D players are LESS inclined to "game the system".
I can't decide if you're an innocent clueless asshat or a troll. And I'm a fairly discerning reader. So hats off to you!
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
Bullshit. US military doctrine is built on soldiers who are flexible, able, and motivated. They don't want to see it in bootcamp, or expressed in ways deemed harmful to the unit. But they count on the fact they'll see it expressed in ways harmful to the enemy.
but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
There was a point in time where ECT in mental institutions was commonplace because it was endorsed by the American Psychology Association.
Today, we know that ECT only helps certain cases of clinical depression, and is used only in extreme cases when no other solution exists.
If you go further back with the same association, they used to perform labotamies. Do you think that practice is done today?
We need to be critical of experts. You cannot always agree with experts.
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Yeah, just think of what would happen if they ran at an enemy shouting "LIGHTNING BOLT! LIGHTNING BOLT!" and throwing balls of tinfoil...
Probably redundant by now, but oh well.
I was in a combat engineering group (ariborne!), had secret clearance, and was in charge of many men and equipment. My squad would often play D&D or other RPGs during down time. I think it helped us to think outside the box and come up with unique solutions to the problems presented to us during military exercises. In fact, it got so the whole platoon used to play Squad Leader (and other board games) along with my squad.
I think it has to do more with being creative and maybe anti-establishment. My squad (and I) would often ruffle brass when we did something that worked and worked well BUT wasn't by the book.
Oh well, that was 20 years ago. Now the US Army just wants bodies...
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
Actually, in one of my pre-recruitment interviews I told the interviewer that I read Slashdot and he was enthusiastic because he did too. :) That was an interview by technical people for a technical job, though, not the generic screening interviews that all Israeli teenagers do. (Recruitment is mandatory in Israel)
However, it should be noted that this was news to me, as I know quite a few people who played or still play D&D and other RPGs (I did, too) and served in highly classified jobs (Like myself).
Also, a prominent Israeli portal posted this caricature about the issue.
The guy on the dragon is saying (Very loosely translated) "I won't go anywhere but Golani", which is an elite unit.
And for the Slashdot crowd, the artist (Miki Mottes) was once the Sysop of a major Israeli BBS.
+1 Slashdotting Jack Chick
The article (at least the original one in Hebrew) doesn't talk about D&D but about LARPing (apparently it was mistranslated). Also these people are not automatically discarded but go through a psychological evaluation to decide whether they might pose a problem. The article mentions that about 50% of these people don't receive a security clearance, which means that 50% of them do get it. The problem with the other 50% being that they have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy (this decided after a thorough psychological evaluation and not just because the army doesn't like the games they play). Obviously the IDF believes that LARPing might be a symptom of a psychological problem but not necessarily the problem itself.
When Geiger counters are outlawed, only mutants will have Geiger counters
Erm, you don't join to the Israeli army, you get drafted in. It's not a matter of they want you or not, if you live in Israel and a Jew, you will end up in the army and will keep rank and title for the rest of your life, as a reserve.
Sorry, I disagree.
While discipline IS essential, absolute discipline is not. Possibly the most important thing for an elite unit is being smart and adaptable. If you receive an order to destroy an enemy observation post so a surprise attack can occur, but find a machine gun nest with a good field of fire, it may be more important to destroy that first. You need to be smart to realize that is more important, and adaptable to change your plans to cope with it. If you blindly follow your orders, more people are going to die.
Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline
If absolute discipline were all that was required of an elite unit, why would intelligence be a requirement for those elite units? Want to join the SEALs, Marine Force Recon, FAST Battalion or Green Berets? You better be able to score well on general intelligence tests and on practical tests within your field. If discipline was the be-all end-all of elite units then they would be full of people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
BTW - While I was at the SEAL training facility in Virginia, they didn't worry about polished boots. They didn't worry about having their utilities pressed. They didn't worry about their appearance. They worried about what their job was and how to be ready for it.
I played D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Top Secret SI and Robotech. I also MUDed way too many hours.
I was also a Marine Rifleman. I served with the Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) Co. Have achievement medals from the Marines and the Army (Joint Operation). Was a squad leader and a platoon sergeant and a company gunnery sergeant; and I wanted people who could think on their own in my squad/platoon/company.
Also, the Marines doctrine was based on mission accomplishment and not absolute discipline. So your statement of "all military doctrine" kind of goes out the window.
Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.
Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.
If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.