Slashdot Mirror
Israeli Army Frowns on D&D
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
I do not mean to cast aspersions on D and D players, but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.
One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
I like D&D. But after seeing some of those pics (before the slashdot effect), I frown on it too!
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Heck, you'd think they'd get a leg up for it--for example, as D&D precludes any and all contact with females, they run no risk of sexual transgression whatsoever!
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
My level 12 Galil with plumbum bullets strike down the level 4 suicide bomber. 100EXP and 12GP. :D
Wait 'til you hear what they do to recruits who admit they read Slashdot!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army? I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart. In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders. Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???
Judging from the article, it seems that the IDF is frowning upon LARPers, not D&Ders per se.
At least, that's what I get from all the pictures and quotations like "[soon] hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy."
Players are always trying to peek behind the DM's screen so they can see what's coming up next. Cheating on the dice rolls, making up munchkin characters, sneaking a look at the monster manual, etc. Untrustworthy, the whole lot of em.
Is a bomb an "edged weapon"? Maybe the IDF just doesn't want clerics to know they have a better chance "to hit" with a guided missile than with a war hammer, mace or morningstar.
--
make install -not war
I don't want to be in the Army any more! I want to be Debbie!
(Attn: Read the Jack Chick tract before modding this offtopic.)
That green slime had it coming.
Um...no. Dungeons and Dragons is the direct precursor to AD&D. It was played with pencil/paper just like AD&D, except with simpler rules, but basically the same. Further, most gamers generically say "D&D", even when really referring to "AD&D".
A modern day witchhunt.
Since D&D players are above-average intelligence and creative thinkers, they probably make less obedient soldiers and might question orders and the purpose of military action. Also, they realize that the world doesn't have to be the way it is.
Apparently I must be mentally unbalanced though, so don't trust my judgment on that one. I'm all detached from reality and stuff.
Fallacious thinking on behalf of Israel military people. I wonder if a county whose identity is rooted so strongly in a state-sponsored faith can see outside of the box as the United States has in accepting almost any religion, yet taking no direct preference in any one.
(This isn't a jab at the Jewish faith at all. I'm about to join the Catholic faith myself, but the question is there, as I'll explain.)
There are a few studies that show positives with game playing. At heart, a proper game based on reality or fantasy settings in an Earth-like setting is a simulation. Sims teach with low costs and reduce or eliminate the expenses needed in live training. Twitch games aid in dexterity and coordination, of course.
And the US Army believes that a good sim of their work is also not only a fun game, but a great recruiting tool.
While board games like D&D itself may not show an immediate dividend to fighting a war, consider that any game helps plot strategy, conserve resources, and deal consequence.
Game playing may help a soldier think "outside of the box" in a combat situation where unusual solutions with conventional weapons and tactics may prove worthwhile. It seems that the Israeli Army may decide to stick to convention.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
I think this only shows one side of the story.
/do/ have some valuable qualities, too.
They do ask you about your hobbies when you go through recruitment (at 16 years old). They may assume that people who play fantasy games are a 'security risk', but they definitely recognize that kids who play complex rule-based cooporative games in their teens
The Israeli army tends to know how to assign people to jobs they'd be good at. And use the rest for cannon fodder. Or, in my case, tell them to just stay home if it's all the same.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
I had to pretend I was gay to get kicked out of the military. I'd much rather have just played a board game.
The biggest supporters for the state of Isreal are radical Christians, who see it as a neccessary precursor to the rapture.
:-)
Not that they'd neccessarily agree on much in one-on-one dialog
Bullshit. US military doctrine is built on soldiers who are flexible, able, and motivated. They don't want to see it in bootcamp, or expressed in ways deemed harmful to the unit. But they count on the fact they'll see it expressed in ways harmful to the enemy.
From TFA:
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
"They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says.
So, if you're "detached from reality," or as some people call it, "creative," you're subject to "influence"? So no Israeli soldier has an original thought, ever?
No wonder the country is in such a fucked up situation...
before he hefted a beer keg over his head while all his frends chanted "ogre, ogre, ogre".
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
IDF is only specifically concerned with RD&D players - that is LARPers. By the way, their specific claim is that they are detached from reality... however, in Atuda - an IDF project that allows one to delay his recruitment and get a scollarship to complete a degree before being drafted - one of the popular majors is mathematics. :)
If it weren't for fog, the world would run at a really crappy framerate.
I've never seen D&D players do the "dress up with shields and swords" thing. Those pictures look like they're of a meeting of the Society for Creative Anachronism, or some other group of similar ilk. But four nerds sitting at a table with dice and paper maps wouldn't be so photogenic.
I take serious issue with the blanket classification being applied in this case. What it appears they have missed is that within almost all gaming communities, more than one archetype of players exists. Players almost always fall into the "power gamer" or "casual gamer" category.
The people I think they are attempting to target are the casual gamers. These are the people who obsess over what color their character's eyes are, what they're wearing, etc. If that's what makes them happy, then more power to them. However, if the Israeli military feels this type of person is less attached to reality and thus a liability, then I could see a justification in the actions they have taken.
Power gamers, on the other hand, are concerned with winning. That is what drives them. They don't care if their "character" is represented by a detailed miniature, or a piece of pocket lint. Making optimal decisions and maximizing their chances of success are key. I would think the military would want to target these people for recruitment. Instead, they are being lumped together under the same label as the casual gamers.
I suppose I take issue with the actions themselves being singled out and not the motivations behind the people taking the actions.
This is not the sig you're looking for.
I was in a combat engineering group (ariborne!), had secret clearance, and was in charge of many men and equipment. My squad would often play D&D or other RPGs during down time. I think it helped us to think outside the box and come up with unique solutions to the problems presented to us during military exercises. In fact, it got so the whole platoon used to play Squad Leader (and other board games) along with my squad.
I think it has to do more with being creative and maybe anti-establishment. My squad (and I) would often ruffle brass when we did something that worked and worked well BUT wasn't by the book.
Oh well, that was 20 years ago. Now the US Army just wants bodies...
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
I you want the rules, minus the character creation and some of the names of the items/spells/creatures, you can go to http://opengamingfoundation.org/ and download the 3.5 Edition SRD for no charge.
Sometimes common sense, like, works and stuff. After 9/11 the Israelies were telling the U.S. that it was nuts to body search 80 year old, white caucasian grandmas from Chicago and allow the 6-foot muslim to walk on by in airports. Which one, really, is more likely to be a terrorist?
Howard Hughes and the CIA only hired Mormons for the longest as they had proven to have the highest, personal, integrity.
And if you're concerned about someone trying to "see what they shouldn't see" then don't hire an AD&D player (D&D? -- that's what was out before AD&D when I was a kid) or a slashdotter.
This stuff ain't rocket science folks....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
And who do you think occupational and clinical psychologists respond to, you pompous ass? I weep at popular idolization of state-sanctioned authority.
HAD
Actually, in one of my pre-recruitment interviews I told the interviewer that I read Slashdot and he was enthusiastic because he did too. :) That was an interview by technical people for a technical job, though, not the generic screening interviews that all Israeli teenagers do. (Recruitment is mandatory in Israel)
However, it should be noted that this was news to me, as I know quite a few people who played or still play D&D and other RPGs (I did, too) and served in highly classified jobs (Like myself).
Also, a prominent Israeli portal posted this caricature about the issue.
The guy on the dragon is saying (Very loosely translated) "I won't go anywhere but Golani", which is an elite unit.
And for the Slashdot crowd, the artist (Miki Mottes) was once the Sysop of a major Israeli BBS.
Ehrm...And who exactly doesn't frown on D&D, other than sadistic DMs and the dicerollers who love them?
Elmar, a level 12 half elf thief walks into a college party:
Rolling 20 sided die, possible outcomes:
1-15 Every girl there that happens to notice Elmar laughs and shakes their head sadly - Charisma -3
16-18 Other partygoers dump beer on nerd taunting him unmercifully - Defense -3
19 Jocks perform +5 super atomic wedgie on Elmar grievously injuring him
20 It is dark in the closet you are locked in. You are likely to be eaten by a GRUE.
Imagine the irony!
Call it the --Revenge of the Geeks--!
Right now, I'm sure they are freaking out...
And yet every actor and actress roleplays. Many authors roleplay, at least acting out what happens in their novels in their mind. In theory, elected representatives should roleplay in considering how a given piece of legislature will affect various different constituents.
Roleplaying is a normal everyday occurrence, its part of learning about anyone who isn't yourself or any job you don't currently do (like the Model United Nations groups in High School).
The only difference here is that these people wield maces and fireballs in their fantasy world instead of bayonets and bazookas. I have to wonder if these people had chosen to play an Avalon Hill wargame, if they'd have been given higher clearances.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
For privates? No, independant thought is not prized. You want people that will do their job, as they are ordered to, without question. The same is not true of officers. Even NCOs, but certianly anyone above Sergeant needs to be able to think, and the higher the rank, the more true that is.
According my observations on my friends and myself several decades ago, D&D style role-players are more (if not completely) resistant to propaganda, brain-washing and military drill. The real problem of recruiters with new recruits is, security clearance in military is not about trust, but about thought control. They trust no one. So they can't give security clearance to someone who's mind they can't control.
Let me comment some headers of TFA:
'Simply detached from reality'
Does mean subject is mentally independent from factual perception, able to create experience according his own intentions. That allows him potentially diverge from lined propaganda. Note, the military propaganda is also somewhat "detached from reality", but other, organized and controlled way.
'The game indicates a weak personality'
"Strong personality" in military sense is someone who obeys all commands unquestionably and is capable to force them out to the lower levels. Higher intellect, which is often a characteristic for D&D players, is not a bonus for performing something that "does not make sense to do" in critical situation. Actually, in D&D all good players are very picky about what does make sense to do in dangerous conditions. Sometimes, simply stand and fight is not an option in dungeon and players already know about it.
There you are, staring at me again.
+1 Slashdotting Jack Chick
They're only hurting themselves here. I worked in a building with no windows a few years back, and the cubicle decorations were typical geek couture: Star Wars, Star Trek, Tolkien, Dilbert, Far Side, math puns, archaic computer hardware, and whiteboards crammed with crazy doodles. You'd be an idiot to think there weren't dungeon-masters there!
Everyone in the building had a high security clearance, and the vast majority of them were "free thinkers." The traits that made them most valuable in D&D also made them great analysts:
- quick lateral thinkers
- work well on small teams ("parties")
- open to new or contradictory data ("plot twists"/"betrayals")
- efficient min-maxers
- logical approach to difficult situations
I know if I ever go back to that kind of work, there'll be plenty of Elvish Paladins and Dwarven Mages and so forth. I wouldn't have it any other way!
"Ynetnews" is written much like another "news" site I know: an outrageous headline, some carefully omitted facts, and a long enough article so that the majority (read: ADD) of readers get the "facts" the author intended, instead of the actual truth. That truth is buried at the bottom (probably to avoid litigation due to libel) of the article, natch.
According to the actual facts, if you say you play D&D (not "D and D," dumbass), you are "evaluated." Note that evaluation is not always performed by a Psychologist, ("usually" != always). And then
Note that they didn't say that the people who are evaluated are only the ones who admit to playing D&D; surely there are other reasons that could make one eligible for "evaluation." In fact, they could have ONLY ONE GUY who admitted to playing D&D, got evaluated and received a low security clearance, and their entire article could be true.
One last thing: a real news site's editors would stamp out something like
So my guess is "Ynetnews" subscribes to the same story editing that /. does: queue's getting big, this one sounds good, post it, is it a
dupe? who cares; just pass the gin 'n' juice.
Yeah, right.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I never have gotten the hang of vowels.
I should have been born an ancient Hebrew.
-Peter
Offers training that develops it. Duh. There are at least two dudes who got their legs blown off who fought like hell to go back to their friends in Iraq. One of whom on completion of a close quarters combat course to the guy from the media, he's not worried about another landmine, it only be half as bad next time.
Seriously, losing a leg, then deciding to take a close quarters combat course and return to the war zone is a pretty non-linear solution.
What's amazing is that the US has a military tradition of out of the box thinking that goes back to War of Independance. We have our failings to be sure, but a lack creative military solutions has NEVER been one of them.
The D&D and AD&D split happened when Gygax and Arneson couldn't agree on a royalty dispute. AD&D and D&D became separate rule sets. AD&D then became AD&D 2nd Edition. And when it came time for a new edition, they looked at the name and decided to drop the 'Advanced' and just call it D&D 3rd Edition, since all those old disputes had long since been worked out. And now, of course, it's 3.5.
So D&D begat AD&D begat AD&D 2nd Edition begat D&D 3rd Edition, which is really AD&D 3rd Edition, sorta kinda.
So D&D is not just the precursor any more. The name has come full circle.
Children role play constantly and have a ton of fun doing it. I doubt many children are unhappy with their personality (that seems a predominantly adult trait). As for their ability to cope with reality, perhaps they don't to an adult level but they certainly do. (Children are being abducted to act as soldiers for the armed resistance occurring in Uganda, and they cope as well as can be expected with it.) That an adult would seek escape occasionally seems entirely natural to me. I suppose all women who read Harlequin romances are weak, unhappy people by your reckoning.
Maybe it's the role-playing aspect that they don't like - putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
Heaven forbid that a grunt might think back to being a schoolkid him/her self and not pull the trigger on a child who strayed off a path.
Not to be mean but some of you trekkie / D&D types are really scary. Don't get me wrong, I love to program, but I get scared when I see your long greasy hair/cowboy hat/D&D attire.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
I'm almost certain I told my recruiter (US Air Force) that I played D&D. In fact when I joined, I had a weekly game going on at the rec center across the street from the recruiter's office, with military players involved. I most definitely told told the recruiter I smoked pot (but was quitting, which I did for four years).
They gave me a TS SCI clearance. Also, the Army hired me years later and gave me a Secret... (or they tried... I quit before it came through, nearly two years later. Still, I had a interim secret clearance for that period)
On the other hand... If anyone had ever stuck a gun in my hand and told me to shoot someone, I'd have probably deserted.
Am I then only one that see's a bunch of soldiers with rocks yelling
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
Enemy in big homemade suit = "RAWGRAWGRAWRG"
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
I think you hit the nail on the head. I wish I had mod points for your post.
Being impressionable and in a sensitive position means you are ripe for the harvest in a counter intelligence situation. You will be much easier to convert to the opposition's cause as it will be much easier to have you see the issue from their point of view and develop sympathy for their position.
A flexible mindset isn't automatically an overly flexible mindset; it's just that much more prone to changes over time. A changed mindset and set of beliefs can manifest as treason.
So, in a way, the IDF is doing those soldiers a favor. They protecting Israel from an increased likelihood of treason, and they're protecting those soldiers from themselves.
Yeah, it's kind of a control freak thing, but it *is* a military organization.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
...I put on my robe and wizard hat...
The game has also increased in popularity due to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. Yeah, before 1955 D&D wasnt NEARLY as popular...
WTF? First of all, goats are kosher. Second of all, an animal MUST have cloven hooves to be Kosher. If it doesn't have cloven hooves it CAN'T be eaten.
"I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench 'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints off to Washington."
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
Shh ... you'll ruin his happy ignorance.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
The article (at least the original one in Hebrew) doesn't talk about D&D but about LARPing (apparently it was mistranslated). Also these people are not automatically discarded but go through a psychological evaluation to decide whether they might pose a problem. The article mentions that about 50% of these people don't receive a security clearance, which means that 50% of them do get it. The problem with the other 50% being that they have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy (this decided after a thorough psychological evaluation and not just because the army doesn't like the games they play). Obviously the IDF believes that LARPing might be a symptom of a psychological problem but not necessarily the problem itself.
When Geiger counters are outlawed, only mutants will have Geiger counters
So, if you want to bring up playing around with fantasies...
Um, let's say someone believes that his country has a right to occupy a piece of land because 3000 or so years ago his ancestor obediently offered up his son to be a human sacrifice because a voice he heard in his head told him to. The voice in his head later rescinded its instructions to kill the guy's son, because he showed that he would value the approval of the voice in his head over that of a little boy one of his wives dropped off for him. This of course showed that human sacrifice was a-okay with the people of time, of course, but that's a talk for another time.
Okay, and then we have the guy who obtained great favor with his voice in his head when he offered up his virgin daughter to the mob for rape and/or murder if the would leave the three guys (who he suspected to be angels) alone.
Then we another guy who listened to the voice in HIS head which told him to clear town with his family because the voice was fixing to burn everyone alive because they were pissing the voice off. A wife looked back as they were leaving, the guy says, and was turned into a box of Morton's salt. At least that's what he told her kin when they asked where the hell she was.
Then we have the guy who heard a voice telling him to build a boat, put two of everything in it, and wait out a world flood which later no one else remembers happening, like, say, the Chinese, having been around for 4000 years or more.
That's reality-based community, not like them D&D fantasists.
You wouldn't want people who had strange ideas about reality in the ranks of your specialist armed forces.
Simply not true. Our army and the soviet's army have a lot more in common than you think.
Hey, I'm not saying that the Red Army had a single strategy of "send wave after wave of cannon fodder until the enemy collapses" (though they did use this tactic on occasion in WW2). All I'm saying is that the Red Army did not value the same degree of "individual initiative" the US Army does. The fact of the matter is that the Red Army expected the officers and mid- to senior-grade NCOs to direct the actions of the privates and junior NCOs, and they were expected to obey. This is basically true of any army, but the Red Army took it to the extreme that (say) if their officers were killed, a motorized rifle platoon would often be at a loss to continue until they could get the company commander to assign an officer to them to relay orders. The divide between the "head" and the "body" was a lot wider, mostly because the filled the lower ranks with conscripts fulfilling their compulsory service.
Ask the Nazi's what they thought of the soviet army.
The Nazi high command mostly thought they were crazy hordes of untrained peasants, and that whatever skill they appeared to have in night fighting or camouflage was due to the "natural cunning of the slav" rather than training. Their asessment was, naturally, in error. My grandfather, a private in the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad, did not concur with this sentiment.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
From the article:
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
Then, later:
"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.
Half of the soldiers being given low security clearances after being sent for psychological evaluation isn't the same thing as "automatic." Which one is it, Ynet?
Make no mistake, I support the existence of Israel, but as a non-Christian, I find this sort of theological motivation more than a little frightening.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
AD&D wasn't just another book. It was an entire line of rulebooks. AD&D was derived from D&D, but had more complicated rules and options. The main different I remember is that in D&D character races were also classes (you played an Elf class). With AD&D, the were separate (You could play an Elf whose is of the fighter class). When WoTC bought TSR and created the 3rd edition, they dropped the advanced from the name. I have pretty much every rulebook since the original "whitebox" and can readily see firsthand D&D's changes throughout the years.
Anonymous Cowards suck.
I work with a retired Air Force Captain who has the same perspective. As he explains it, either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops. Neither is excusable for an officer in the armed forces.
The corollary being that the soldiers who are taking the blame for it are, in a way, scapegoats, because the liability goes up the chain and somebody is getting away with it.
They want very particular types of initiative, in particular the initiative to take command of a situation when necessary. What they do not want is people who question authority.
I did some research a while back on the differences between eastern and western military doctrine in World War II. One of the keys was the the Soviets, for various reasons, allowed very little command flexibility in their ranks. Operations were planned to extremely minute details and all subordinates were expected to stick to the plan no matter what (one big reason was they had poor communications infrastructure to change the plan dynamically).
The west, in contrast, had less detailed plans, and relied on their officers adapting their tactics to the facts on the ground as they appeared.
I wonder what it is about D&D they object to. Is it the fantasy aspects of it? What about roleplayers who the Star Wars RPG or a modern based RPG like Spycraft? Are they in the same group? Also, do they object to the time and devotion given to the game or the fact they are playing an imaginary character? If so, what about all-strategy games like Warhammer? It would seem to me that wargamers might actually be looked upon favorably in the military due their familiarity with strategy.
No, Islam denounces the Tenach (Old Testament) as a lie, changed by Jews. Because of this they are not our spiritual brothers in faith as the Jews are.
Quickie lesson:
Abraham in the Bible had 2 sons: Isaac, who is the father of modern day Jews, and Ishmael, who is the father of modern day Arabs. Jewish & Christian Scripture agree that God annointed Isaac, and therefore his descendants (the Jews) are God's people.
Islam tells us that the conniving Jews lied and changed the Bible so that Isaac got annointed, when it was supposedly Ishmael that was annointed by God, and therefore his descendants (the Arabs) are God's people.
Additionally, the Qu'uran commands Muslims not to associate with Jews and Christians because they are bound together in their common faiths.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
Erm, you don't join to the Israeli army, you get drafted in. It's not a matter of they want you or not, if you live in Israel and a Jew, you will end up in the army and will keep rank and title for the rest of your life, as a reserve.
Sorry, I disagree.
While discipline IS essential, absolute discipline is not. Possibly the most important thing for an elite unit is being smart and adaptable. If you receive an order to destroy an enemy observation post so a surprise attack can occur, but find a machine gun nest with a good field of fire, it may be more important to destroy that first. You need to be smart to realize that is more important, and adaptable to change your plans to cope with it. If you blindly follow your orders, more people are going to die.
Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline
If absolute discipline were all that was required of an elite unit, why would intelligence be a requirement for those elite units? Want to join the SEALs, Marine Force Recon, FAST Battalion or Green Berets? You better be able to score well on general intelligence tests and on practical tests within your field. If discipline was the be-all end-all of elite units then they would be full of people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
BTW - While I was at the SEAL training facility in Virginia, they didn't worry about polished boots. They didn't worry about having their utilities pressed. They didn't worry about their appearance. They worried about what their job was and how to be ready for it.
I played D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Top Secret SI and Robotech. I also MUDed way too many hours.
I was also a Marine Rifleman. I served with the Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) Co. Have achievement medals from the Marines and the Army (Joint Operation). Was a squad leader and a platoon sergeant and a company gunnery sergeant; and I wanted people who could think on their own in my squad/platoon/company.
Also, the Marines doctrine was based on mission accomplishment and not absolute discipline. So your statement of "all military doctrine" kind of goes out the window.
Me and a bunch of friends were some of the original game add-on designers at SFU for AD&D (heck, I've still got stuff that Gary Gygax signed, and a bunch of the original versions of the books), and I ended up holding a SECRET clearance in the Canadian Armed Forces.
...
I suggest that this stunt will result in a 1D4 roll for self-inflicted damage to the Isreali Army, as RPG players are frequently better able to compartmentalize information learned with a higher classification and only release that which is appropriate, as well as how to deal with semi-conflicting rules sets to preserve the intention of security.
But, hey, what do I know - I was only Acting Security Officer for the whole Pacific Region
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
was gonna add: if the Israeli army doesn't want weirdos who have a skewed sense of reality in their ranks, then they probably shouldn't accept fundamentalist religious types who believe the earth is 6000 years old or that god will send you to hell for all eternity for eating a goat, what with cloven hooves being unclean and all.
Funny you should mention that. Orthodox are not subject to the draft.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.
Really? Doesn't seem so to me. Some possible theories why the IDF is skeptical of roleplayers (TFA says D&D, but seem to refer to RPGs and LARPs in general):
- RPGs do have a bad image due to some Christian fundamentalists spreading FUD. The same Christians are avid supporters of Israel and Zionism so maybe the IDF actually believed these guys.
- there's a higher percentage of left-leaning among roleplayers than among the general population. This may also be the case in Israel. Beeing a roleplayer thus makes you more likely to be exposed to leftists. This is indeed a security issue.
- roleplayers are more individualistic and creative and thus less likely to accept orders without questioning.
- the IDF are prejudiced. Psychologists have a tendency to view everything trough psychologist-glasses. This makes "escapism" a bad thing.
- some idiot deceided this some years ago and nobody has corrected it since due to hiearchy issues.
- the IDF are idiots
Probably a combination of some of the above.
Evolution is just a scientific theory. Creationism is not.
As for the IDF automatically lowering RPG-ers security clearances,
RTFA. The IDF does not automatically lowers the security clearance of recruits who proclaim they play D&D. These recruits are sent to a psychological evaluation. More than half of these are found to have psychological traits that are not wanted in high security clearance positions.
Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.
Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.
If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
- General George Patton Jr
Great people don't need people to complete them, great people complete other people. -- Matthew Pawlikowski.
Back when I was an undergraduate, a History professor had this saying taped to his door:
"The reason the American Army is so good at war is that war is chaos, and the American military practices chaos on a daily basis." - From a World War II German Army War Manual
JA
http://www.johnalex.org/
News flash, the indians were fighting the Americans as well. It wasn't totally one sided, but the tech gap and population gap eventually made sure that the Americans finished on top of the heathen savages.
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
Wow, your post is ignorant on so many levels, where do I begin..
For starters, Jews don't believe in a hell. In Scripture God lays out some foods that are healthy and others that are unhealthy. If we break that law, we are not going to the lakes of burning brimstone; your Christian religionist leaders invented that one.
Perhaps coincidentally, virtually all the unhealthy foods God mentions are all scientifically proven as unhealthy. A vast majority of the dietary laws are against the eating of scavengers, vultures, bottom-feeders; food that has proven to be unhealthy for humans to eat. There are a few (such as pig) that people eat today, but perhaps the modern farm-raised pigs of today are different from the wild pigs of Biblical times.
Chewing the cud: read about it in a science book. It's a way animals, such as cows, digest plants in the most efficient way nature can get them, by regurgitating the food and chewing it, breaking it down so the body can extract more nutrients. It's really an amazing part of nature. And despite biblical man's lack of scientific knowledge, we now know that most animals that chew the cud are indeed healthy for humans to consume because of the science behind chewing the cud.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
Actually you don't have to be jewish to get drafted into the israeli army, you just have to be an israeli citizen.. there are in fact besides jews also arabs, druze, bedouin, moslems, christians and even vietnamese in the israeli army!
Part of it has to do with lack of refrigeration.
Pork doesn't keep very well in hot Israeli climates. Also, salting meat (to remove blood) helps preserve it.
Furthermore, pigs spread disease. The flu, for example, usually evolves in bird populations, but usually can't be transmitted from birds to humans. It can, however, be passed from birds to pigs, and then a pig with a flu virus can pass it to humans.
So, if there were no pig farming, we probably would not need to bother with flu shots every year.
(For the record: I'm not Jewish, just interested in the history of Hebrew law. It is one of the half-dozen-or-so oldest sets of laws we have on record, after all.)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
It is NOT I repeat NOT a plausible defense to say you were just following orders. In every brief on the subject, starting with one in the first weeks of basic training, US solider is told he has a duty to follow all legal orders. He is told in the same brief that it is also his duty to disobey and prevent others from obeying an illegal order.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important