Slashdot Mirror
Israeli Army Frowns on D&D
Big Rob found us a gem of a story about the Israeli Army frowning on D&D players. Apparently '18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.' I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing.
I do not mean to cast aspersions on D and D players, but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.
One possible characteristic not mentioned in TFA was: People who role-play might be more inclined to game the system - definitely not a desirable personality trait to have in personnel deployed in sensitive positions.
How does the Slashdot Effect happen given that no slashdotters ever RTFA?
"We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," a security source told Ynetnews.
And treating soldiers with marijuana will help?
http://www.hightimes.com/ht/news/content.php?bid=
It could be worse, it could be Monday.
I like D&D. But after seeing some of those pics (before the slashdot effect), I frown on it too!
I have never let my schooling interfere with my education.
Heck, you'd think they'd get a leg up for it--for example, as D&D precludes any and all contact with females, they run no risk of sexual transgression whatsoever!
Obliteracy: Words with explosions
My level 12 Galil with plumbum bullets strike down the level 4 suicide bomber. 100EXP and 12GP. :D
Wait 'til you hear what they do to recruits who admit they read Slashdot!
Sheesh, evil *and* a jerk. -- Jade
Think about it. D&D attracts imaginitive players who are able to think for themselves. Now does that seem like people you want in your Army? I ship out to Marine boot camp Aug. 1st and people have told me over and over again that when I get there...I shouldn't stand out. D&D players are different...and normally very smart. In an army you want drones who can think for themselves but will never question orders. Why do you think the great dictators killed teachers???
Activated! Your idiotic rants now effortlessly bounce off me!
Judging from the article, it seems that the IDF is frowning upon LARPers, not D&Ders per se.
At least, that's what I get from all the pictures and quotations like "[soon] hundreds of fans are expected to meet in a forest in the southern part of Israel for a two-day game of pure fantasy."
Those aren't D&D players, they're leaked pics from Israeli military training and they don't want to admit it. Blaming it on D&D, where's the love?
Sorry to makek fun of some the regulars, but every D&D player I've ever met is weird. I don't even want to work with them.
My lame blog.
Players are always trying to peek behind the DM's screen so they can see what's coming up next. Cheating on the dice rolls, making up munchkin characters, sneaking a look at the monster manual, etc. Untrustworthy, the whole lot of em.
"which entails directing the game and controlling the labyrinth, "
;)
somebody watched 1 too many bad tv 'movies' in the 70's.
plus, those wherre pictures of LARPers.... freaks.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I think there are certain things that should be warning signs... I like Star Trek, if I sign up to be in the navy and say that, they might laugh... if I show up at the navy dressed in full costume, they have something to worry about, and probably shouldn't give me any position with any access (read security clearence) as I'm probably not the most mentally stable person... don't you think that's pruedent?
---
Programming is like sex... Make one mistake and support it the rest of your life.
Is a bomb an "edged weapon"? Maybe the IDF just doesn't want clerics to know they have a better chance "to hit" with a guided missile than with a war hammer, mace or morningstar.
--
make install -not war
because damn... the same story was posted there a long time ago (and why aren't links to it working?)
My dreams of joining the IDF are shattered!
*crys*
My level 71 thief can get all the "security clearance" I need. I'll send my level 72 Ogre in with my level 74 Mage and work out that whole middle east issue with a few rolls of the dice.
the Jack Chick pictures of girls playing D&D.
Surely you mean more of a security risk?
I'd also argue that people who indulge in fantasy games have a tendency to be morally rigid and idealistic -- a bad trait in a soldier.
of don't ask don't tell!
come on fhqwhgads
Well, you know, if they are D&D players, they are security risks.
First girl to show a little skin, and your entire North Atlantic operations become a blustered marriage proposal.
Can you imagine what secrets would be divulged if you let them get to third base?
I find that gamers are much better at independent thought and analysis, and are, in general, much more creative than non-gamers. (This is not a 100% correlation. Indeed, many gamers are complete weenies. However, a former employer hired several people out of my gaming group and was specifically asking me for more of them, because they were engineers, programmers and technicians who could come up with more inventive solutions, so it does hold some water). Anyway, this is often contrary to military and security needs.
I don't want to be in the Army any more! I want to be Debbie!
(Attn: Read the Jack Chick tract before modding this offtopic.)
That green slime had it coming.
I had a collection of 1980s Dragon Magazines. One of them had an editorial about a brochure that had been circulating, that advertised Dungeons & Dragons as an excellent way to learn hypnotism, control your parents minds, and force them to buy you more D&D books. The editorial did a little digging, and discovered who had published the brochure, but I've forgotten.
The weird thing about it, is to think that people would go out of their way to make D&D look bad. I mean, if you think it's bad, that's your deal, but wtf do you get from villainizing it? It was strange to my 12 year old mind.
Anyway. Adults who are into live action roleplayers are detached from reality. That's the goal. Maybe the Israeli army is onto something.
There are no trails. There are no trees out here.
I roll the dice .......
i have just inflicted 7 hit points of damage upon you , aa haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
I do not understand what their problem is. D&D players are a productive bunch of people who are driven, goal orientated.........ohhh, I have to finish this later, it is my fighter/wizard/theif's turn to attack the dragon. I use my +5 Sword of....
Having done so much with so little for so long, I now can do anything with nothing at all.
HARRRRR!!!
If I interviewed people who thougth D&D was played with real swords, I'd downgrade their security clearance too - because I wouldn't think they were bright enough to trust with secrets.
"I'm thinking that a few generals should meet up with Jack Chick and have a good long discussion about the evils of role playing."
Because, as you know, the _Jewish_ generals of the IDF really give a crap about what some psychotic _Christian_ thinks about D&D and religion.
But, blah blah, cue the anti-Israel rants, however OT they may be.
-DMZ
Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
The article says, "We have discovered that some of them are simply detached from reality," a security source told Ynetnews.
Anyone who has played that game knows people who are in fact detached from reality. Of course, that's not everyone but they probably don't have time to do a bunch of research on every recruit to see if that person is safe or not for high security work.
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Glad to see someone is talking out against Qassam rockets (you know... the rockets fired at civilians that have so far killed 3 infants and one of their fathers)
In Jose Chung's 'From Outer Space' (the episode with the smoking alien):
Jose: Aren't you worried?
Video Guy: I didn't spend all those years playing Dungeons and Dragons and not learn a little something about courage.
Most soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in teh [sic] army, he says.
I wonder what they do to those who say "teh" in proper speech. : )
All comments are properties and trademarks of the voices in my head. Not like I'm gonna claim them.
What i found interesting was that they didn't talk about role playing games (RPGs), just D&D. The 'live-action' D&D may be what's spooking them.
eric
"The army is not indifferent to the unique hobby and is trying to locate soldiers who in their free time dress up as witches and play in forests."
roflmao
Any man who afflicts the human race with ideas must be prepared to see them misunderstood. -- H. L. Mencken
Um...no. Dungeons and Dragons is the direct precursor to AD&D. It was played with pencil/paper just like AD&D, except with simpler rules, but basically the same. Further, most gamers generically say "D&D", even when really referring to "AD&D".
A modern day witchhunt.
Since D&D players are above-average intelligence and creative thinkers, they probably make less obedient soldiers and might question orders and the purpose of military action. Also, they realize that the world doesn't have to be the way it is.
Apparently I must be mentally unbalanced though, so don't trust my judgment on that one. I'm all detached from reality and stuff.
cause they would kill Jack Chick, and really, how is that a bad thing?
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Fallacious thinking on behalf of Israel military people. I wonder if a county whose identity is rooted so strongly in a state-sponsored faith can see outside of the box as the United States has in accepting almost any religion, yet taking no direct preference in any one.
(This isn't a jab at the Jewish faith at all. I'm about to join the Catholic faith myself, but the question is there, as I'll explain.)
There are a few studies that show positives with game playing. At heart, a proper game based on reality or fantasy settings in an Earth-like setting is a simulation. Sims teach with low costs and reduce or eliminate the expenses needed in live training. Twitch games aid in dexterity and coordination, of course.
And the US Army believes that a good sim of their work is also not only a fun game, but a great recruiting tool.
While board games like D&D itself may not show an immediate dividend to fighting a war, consider that any game helps plot strategy, conserve resources, and deal consequence.
Game playing may help a soldier think "outside of the box" in a combat situation where unusual solutions with conventional weapons and tactics may prove worthwhile. It seems that the Israeli Army may decide to stick to convention.
Vos teneo officium eram periculosus ut vos recipero is.
Wonder if they ask people if they read fiction or go to movies...
I think this only shows one side of the story.
/do/ have some valuable qualities, too.
They do ask you about your hobbies when you go through recruitment (at 16 years old). They may assume that people who play fantasy games are a 'security risk', but they definitely recognize that kids who play complex rule-based cooporative games in their teens
The Israeli army tends to know how to assign people to jobs they'd be good at. And use the rest for cannon fodder. Or, in my case, tell them to just stay home if it's all the same.
In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is kinky.
. . . Gave us the UZI! A fabulously ineffective weapon crucial to the Shadowrun RPG and various bad action movies. Who's to say who's in touch with reality?
Monster Zero is the reason we cannot live on the surface, but must live forever live underground like this.
I was in the US Army.
TS/SBI. Airborne. Served in the Balkins.
Played D&D as a teen. Recently started playing again.
Honorably discharged. Never created a security risk.
For whatever that's worth.
-Peter
I had to pretend I was gay to get kicked out of the military. I'd much rather have just played a board game.
Imagine what they think of World of Warcraft!
A side note about the D&D, it would be funny if they went out on patrols roleplaying a rogue and a mage.
"Gadzooks, Gremai, it looks like we stumbled upon some low level Palestinian Knights."
I think my lightning bolts disagree! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt! Lightning bolt!
WoTC started calling both 3rd/3.5 editons just Dungeons and Dragons.
Why does the IDF believe the game is so dangerous?
"These people have a tendency to be influenced by external factors which could cloud their judgment, a military official says. They may be detached from reality(...)
You watching TV ? What is that, holly-fricking-wood liberals ? You outa here ! What book is that, son ? So you say its fiction, like it only exists in your head ? I see. You have been promoted to toillet cleaner, second class. Slashwhat? Look at me! Im talking to you. Stop typing and stand up right away! What do you think you are doing, writing, reading and being influenced by these international techno-babble freaks ?
Quem a paca cara compra, paca cara pagará.
Terminator T-101 picked one, good enough for me :)
Bullshit. US military doctrine is built on soldiers who are flexible, able, and motivated. They don't want to see it in bootcamp, or expressed in ways deemed harmful to the unit. But they count on the fact they'll see it expressed in ways harmful to the enemy.
So I guess the IDF must take those renaissance faire people and ride them out of their recruiting offices on a rail!
Insert witty sig here.
From TFA:
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
"They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says.
So, if you're "detached from reality," or as some people call it, "creative," you're subject to "influence"? So no Israeli soldier has an original thought, ever?
No wonder the country is in such a fucked up situation...
Soldiers have to lie about being gay.
From TFA:
The game focuses on the results of decisions made by the players as determined by the roll of the dice. In a more "active" version of the game, players leave the table and go out, dressed as the characters they assume for the game
In the beginning, there was D&D. Then came AD&D. The roots of the game are entirely dice- and paper-oriented. (Plus they have those cute little miniatures, which make great projectiles when you're mad at someone.)
I'm not good in groups. It's difficult to work in a group when you're omnipotent. - Q
before he hefted a beer keg over his head while all his frends chanted "ogre, ogre, ogre".
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
They forced the removal of the demons and devils (re-naming, actually, but same difference) and a few other alterations.
Chick was distributing these little tracts back in the 1980s too. I saw my copy back in 1987 or so. Hilarious. Seeing it on the web brought back memories.
I threw it out then. I still have my 1ed AD&D stuff, tho. With the demons and devils.
HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
Didn't know that, thanks. It's been a while for me, but I remember when "Advanced D&D" was just another book in the D&D rules set. Then D&D was dropped, and it was all called AD&D (2nd edition?). I haven't played since the change you mention happened.
A modern day witchhunt.
The IDF has some major internal problems right now. The leftist solders don't want to go into Palestinian refugee camps. The rightist soldiers don't want to go into illegal Jewish settlements. Those factional problems are bigger than the D&D issue.
I don't rely exclusively upon US news sources and listen to the BBC regularly. I'm constantly disappointed when I hear of these iniquities, yet most people in my home town are rather convinced that the palestinians somehow deserved it. Sad... Small wonder there are so many volunteers to strap bombs to their bodies and die for their people. It's all that's left to a desperate people. (I don't justify it, but I understand their point of view. Peace begins with justice and there's been too little of it.)
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
Actually, Suicide Bomber is a Prestige Class you can earn at any level. The main requirements are a very low WIS and 5 ranks in Disguise and Concealment.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, simulate.
IDF is only specifically concerned with RD&D players - that is LARPers. By the way, their specific claim is that they are detached from reality... however, in Atuda - an IDF project that allows one to delay his recruitment and get a scollarship to complete a degree before being drafted - one of the popular majors is mathematics. :)
If it weren't for fog, the world would run at a really crappy framerate.
...and any other possible computer game with roleplaying elements. Dungeon Siege? Jesus. There are some big sellers here. If, statistically speaking, they wish to include the dumb-jock element (who tend to love watching and playing sports and loathe anything remotely resembling an RPG, or even a computer, for that matter) and disenfranchise the smart-creative-gamer element (who tend to not be a huge fan of sports and love imaginative gaming stuff), be my guest. I would just love to see who is the more innovative problem-solver in battle if all they have are people who only know how to brute-force a problem.
I've never seen D&D players do the "dress up with shields and swords" thing. Those pictures look like they're of a meeting of the Society for Creative Anachronism, or some other group of similar ilk. But four nerds sitting at a table with dice and paper maps wouldn't be so photogenic.
I cast magic missile.
[Rolls dice]
"A suicide bomber inflicts major damage to you, draining you of 10HP. You are dead."
How could that happen? I had Mordechai's Magical Watchdog.
"No, you didn't. You had a 15 year-old basset hound with three legs and a severe case of diahhrea. The suicide bomber took you out with a Pipe Bomb of Hurting +2. You are dead."
[sob]... where are the Cheetos?
--Chag
I take serious issue with the blanket classification being applied in this case. What it appears they have missed is that within almost all gaming communities, more than one archetype of players exists. Players almost always fall into the "power gamer" or "casual gamer" category.
The people I think they are attempting to target are the casual gamers. These are the people who obsess over what color their character's eyes are, what they're wearing, etc. If that's what makes them happy, then more power to them. However, if the Israeli military feels this type of person is less attached to reality and thus a liability, then I could see a justification in the actions they have taken.
Power gamers, on the other hand, are concerned with winning. That is what drives them. They don't care if their "character" is represented by a detailed miniature, or a piece of pocket lint. Making optimal decisions and maximizing their chances of success are key. I would think the military would want to target these people for recruitment. Instead, they are being lumped together under the same label as the casual gamers.
I suppose I take issue with the actions themselves being singled out and not the motivations behind the people taking the actions.
This is not the sig you're looking for.
From TFA:
They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence
I wonder if they give low security clearance to kids who like movies, books, or any other kind of fiction? Consuming those involves being "detached from reality." What about actors? What about intelligence analysts who pose "what if" questions about their enemy's actions?
I was in a combat engineering group (ariborne!), had secret clearance, and was in charge of many men and equipment. My squad would often play D&D or other RPGs during down time. I think it helped us to think outside the box and come up with unique solutions to the problems presented to us during military exercises. In fact, it got so the whole platoon used to play Squad Leader (and other board games) along with my squad.
I think it has to do more with being creative and maybe anti-establishment. My squad (and I) would often ruffle brass when we did something that worked and worked well BUT wasn't by the book.
Oh well, that was 20 years ago. Now the US Army just wants bodies...
"If you are on fire you can just stop, drop, and roll. If you fall into Lava you are just dead." - my 5yr old daughter
"Lightning Bolt! Lightning Bolt! Sleep!!!" You don't want him in the military?
Whatever you may be sure of, be sure of this: that you are dreadfully like other people. - James Russell Lowell
Just think, if he did, these kind of measures could have stopped lots of American secrets going to the USSR.
Slashdot: News for Nerds, Stuff that matters only to them
I you want the rules, minus the character creation and some of the names of the items/spells/creatures, you can go to http://opengamingfoundation.org/ and download the 3.5 Edition SRD for no charge.
Not allowed in the army because you have an imagination? I guess they just want a bunch of unthinking drones to fill the ranks. I'm glad I'm not going to be in the Israeli army any time soon.
Make me a friend and I'll mod you up
Sometimes common sense, like, works and stuff. After 9/11 the Israelies were telling the U.S. that it was nuts to body search 80 year old, white caucasian grandmas from Chicago and allow the 6-foot muslim to walk on by in airports. Which one, really, is more likely to be a terrorist?
Howard Hughes and the CIA only hired Mormons for the longest as they had proven to have the highest, personal, integrity.
And if you're concerned about someone trying to "see what they shouldn't see" then don't hire an AD&D player (D&D? -- that's what was out before AD&D when I was a kid) or a slashdotter.
This stuff ain't rocket science folks....
"All great things are simple & expressed in a single word: freedom, justice, honor, duty, mercy, hope." --Churchill
A platoon of guys like Bobby Shaftoe would be a dangerous thing indeed (for the enemy).
female foreigners. Cheap joke, but I had to go for it.
Except for ending slavery, the Nazis, communism, & securing American independence, war has never solved anything.
Scott Kurtz (creator of PVP comics) made a very funny comic in 2000 as a rebuttal to JTC's comic. His writeup is worth reading, but if you're in a hurry or just not in the mood just scroll down for the comic.
http://www.pvponline.com/rants_jesus.php3
And who do you think occupational and clinical psychologists respond to, you pompous ass? I weep at popular idolization of state-sanctioned authority.
HAD
The military mortification process will not work on people who have an internal escape mechanism of the strength of that which is created by D&D players. Mortification is the process the military uses to breakdown ones personality and remodel it into their hierarchical command based model. This is done in boot camp to make nice obedient soldiers. People they can not remodel are risky to them. There is good and bad in this. Those who are most apt to resist the process are equally divided among the most talented and most pathetic people in the world. The psychological tests seeks to reveal which type these people our and track them accordingly. The sad reality is that for the most part the military wants psychologically malleable people. While they will make exceptions for the brains in the DD groups they most certainly do not want the people who use the game to escape reality as they can not remodel them so they cannot trust them and the reason they like to play the game means they are more vulnerable to manipulation.
A few years back, Wizards of the Coast (who bought out TSR, and were then bought out by Hasbro) released a new version of the rules. At the same time, they reverted the system to the old name; Dungeons and Dragons (D&D). Version numbers are now added to the name, so it became D&D3e, for the 3rd editition of the rules. As they released an 'update' to the rules just over a year ago, the most up to date version is called D&D3.5
A short history of D&D can be found here
And the official home page for D&D can be found here
Actually, in one of my pre-recruitment interviews I told the interviewer that I read Slashdot and he was enthusiastic because he did too. :) That was an interview by technical people for a technical job, though, not the generic screening interviews that all Israeli teenagers do. (Recruitment is mandatory in Israel)
However, it should be noted that this was news to me, as I know quite a few people who played or still play D&D and other RPGs (I did, too) and served in highly classified jobs (Like myself).
Also, a prominent Israeli portal posted this caricature about the issue.
The guy on the dragon is saying (Very loosely translated) "I won't go anywhere but Golani", which is an elite unit.
And for the Slashdot crowd, the artist (Miki Mottes) was once the Sysop of a major Israeli BBS.
Ehrm...And who exactly doesn't frown on D&D, other than sadistic DMs and the dicerollers who love them?
Elmar, a level 12 half elf thief walks into a college party:
Rolling 20 sided die, possible outcomes:
1-15 Every girl there that happens to notice Elmar laughs and shakes their head sadly - Charisma -3
16-18 Other partygoers dump beer on nerd taunting him unmercifully - Defense -3
19 Jocks perform +5 super atomic wedgie on Elmar grievously injuring him
20 It is dark in the closet you are locked in. You are likely to be eaten by a GRUE.
Imagine the irony!
Call it the --Revenge of the Geeks--!
Right now, I'm sure they are freaking out...
And yet every actor and actress roleplays. Many authors roleplay, at least acting out what happens in their novels in their mind. In theory, elected representatives should roleplay in considering how a given piece of legislature will affect various different constituents.
Roleplaying is a normal everyday occurrence, its part of learning about anyone who isn't yourself or any job you don't currently do (like the Model United Nations groups in High School).
The only difference here is that these people wield maces and fireballs in their fantasy world instead of bayonets and bazookas. I have to wonder if these people had chosen to play an Avalon Hill wargame, if they'd have been given higher clearances.
If I have been able to see further than others, it is because I bought a pair of binoculars.
And in honor of the MAGNIFICENT Jack Chick: The Antlers of the Damned!
-73, de n1ywb
www.n1ywb.com
I especially enjoyed the pictures of D&D players with swords, as generally the only thing in my hand during D&D is soda and/or swiss cake rolls.
Yes, and that is why you are fat sitting at home and these guys are joining the IDF and killing people.
For privates? No, independant thought is not prized. You want people that will do their job, as they are ordered to, without question. The same is not true of officers. Even NCOs, but certianly anyone above Sergeant needs to be able to think, and the higher the rank, the more true that is.
Is it just me, or was it obvious that they're not talking about D&D, Live Action Role Playing is quite different.
I've done both, BTW, I'm just saying, and I'm in security, so Bah!
I know, but they ended up in the USSR, didn't they?
Slashdot: News for Nerds, Stuff that matters only to them
Bah! Screw D&D. I'm trying to move my players over to Fudge, a lightweight system that doesn't bog you down in rules.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
That is all.
BTW- Black Leaf in the Chick tract is a hottie.
According my observations on my friends and myself several decades ago, D&D style role-players are more (if not completely) resistant to propaganda, brain-washing and military drill. The real problem of recruiters with new recruits is, security clearance in military is not about trust, but about thought control. They trust no one. So they can't give security clearance to someone who's mind they can't control.
Let me comment some headers of TFA:
'Simply detached from reality'
Does mean subject is mentally independent from factual perception, able to create experience according his own intentions. That allows him potentially diverge from lined propaganda. Note, the military propaganda is also somewhat "detached from reality", but other, organized and controlled way.
'The game indicates a weak personality'
"Strong personality" in military sense is someone who obeys all commands unquestionably and is capable to force them out to the lower levels. Higher intellect, which is often a characteristic for D&D players, is not a bonus for performing something that "does not make sense to do" in critical situation. Actually, in D&D all good players are very picky about what does make sense to do in dangerous conditions. Sometimes, simply stand and fight is not an option in dungeon and players already know about it.
There you are, staring at me again.
Quote: "They're detached from reality and suscepitble to influence," the army says.
I thought these were in fact basic necessities for a person to be admitted to any army? - They are characteristics of a truly moldable person, perfect to go out and kill without questioning!
Must be easier to avoid reasoning with someone by typing that they can't be reasoned with...
+1 Slashdotting Jack Chick
They're only hurting themselves here. I worked in a building with no windows a few years back, and the cubicle decorations were typical geek couture: Star Wars, Star Trek, Tolkien, Dilbert, Far Side, math puns, archaic computer hardware, and whiteboards crammed with crazy doodles. You'd be an idiot to think there weren't dungeon-masters there!
Everyone in the building had a high security clearance, and the vast majority of them were "free thinkers." The traits that made them most valuable in D&D also made them great analysts:
- quick lateral thinkers
- work well on small teams ("parties")
- open to new or contradictory data ("plot twists"/"betrayals")
- efficient min-maxers
- logical approach to difficult situations
I know if I ever go back to that kind of work, there'll be plenty of Elvish Paladins and Dwarven Mages and so forth. I wouldn't have it any other way!
Perhaps the IDF has determined that people with a rich fantasy life are easier to subvert. Not that I really agree with this. I just think that people who are into RPGs can let reality get away from them.
For example, when I was stationed at Langley back in the mid 80's, there was a 1Lt in my unit who was "Warload of Quux" - or somesuch - by night. During the day, his actual duties tended to interfere with his imaginary life - which was much more important to him.
Last I heard, he got a bad OER, left the military, and now sells used cars in Hampton, VA.
And still does the RPG thing at his trailer park.
668: Neighbour of the Beast
It just means you hang out with creative smart people who happen to have the same hobby.
Yes I game, no this isn't anti-gamer.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
"Ynetnews" is written much like another "news" site I know: an outrageous headline, some carefully omitted facts, and a long enough article so that the majority (read: ADD) of readers get the "facts" the author intended, instead of the actual truth. That truth is buried at the bottom (probably to avoid litigation due to libel) of the article, natch.
According to the actual facts, if you say you play D&D (not "D and D," dumbass), you are "evaluated." Note that evaluation is not always performed by a Psychologist, ("usually" != always). And then
Note that they didn't say that the people who are evaluated are only the ones who admit to playing D&D; surely there are other reasons that could make one eligible for "evaluation." In fact, they could have ONLY ONE GUY who admitted to playing D&D, got evaluated and received a low security clearance, and their entire article could be true.
One last thing: a real news site's editors would stamp out something like
So my guess is "Ynetnews" subscribes to the same story editing that /. does: queue's getting big, this one sounds good, post it, is it a
dupe? who cares; just pass the gin 'n' juice.
Yeah, right.
people I'd want in certian aspects of my army...those aspect are generally high clearence.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Hahahahah! Where's your Jesus now?!
" Most soldiers who play Dungeons and Dragons simply do not admit to it while they are in teh army, he says. "
In other news, Israeli reporters like to play teh Counter-strike!! Pwned!!!
No! No! No! In the beginning there was only the void, then there was chainmail... :)
Nothing in the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
Enjoy.
Don't Panic.
Offers training that develops it. Duh. There are at least two dudes who got their legs blown off who fought like hell to go back to their friends in Iraq. One of whom on completion of a close quarters combat course to the guy from the media, he's not worried about another landmine, it only be half as bad next time.
Seriously, losing a leg, then deciding to take a close quarters combat course and return to the war zone is a pretty non-linear solution.
What's amazing is that the US has a military tradition of out of the box thinking that goes back to War of Independance. We have our failings to be sure, but a lack creative military solutions has NEVER been one of them.
I have no idea if it's just a bad translation, or if they just really have no clue that there are other fantasy role playing games other than Dungeons and Dragons, so they're using it as a generic term.
Also, just because you have folks who are dressed up and have foam weapons, it's not necessarily a LARP. There's also the category 'Live Action Wargamers', who fight, but don't go for that whole character development type stuff. Darkon, Markland, Dagorhir and to some degree, the SCA come to mind. (but the SCAdians will probably take offense to that).
LARPs tend to be less about combat... stuff like NERO and Archaea.
(I have no idea where Amtgard falls, as the only times I've seen their members, they were swinging pretty soft.. and they were using PVC cores, which would break quickly in most wargames, but that might not be all groups)
Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
The D&D and AD&D split happened when Gygax and Arneson couldn't agree on a royalty dispute. AD&D and D&D became separate rule sets. AD&D then became AD&D 2nd Edition. And when it came time for a new edition, they looked at the name and decided to drop the 'Advanced' and just call it D&D 3rd Edition, since all those old disputes had long since been worked out. And now, of course, it's 3.5.
So D&D begat AD&D begat AD&D 2nd Edition begat D&D 3rd Edition, which is really AD&D 3rd Edition, sorta kinda.
So D&D is not just the precursor any more. The name has come full circle.
Children role play constantly and have a ton of fun doing it. I doubt many children are unhappy with their personality (that seems a predominantly adult trait). As for their ability to cope with reality, perhaps they don't to an adult level but they certainly do. (Children are being abducted to act as soldiers for the armed resistance occurring in Uganda, and they cope as well as can be expected with it.) That an adult would seek escape occasionally seems entirely natural to me. I suppose all women who read Harlequin romances are weak, unhappy people by your reckoning.
Maybe it's the role-playing aspect that they don't like - putting yourself in someone else's shoes.
Heaven forbid that a grunt might think back to being a schoolkid him/her self and not pull the trigger on a child who strayed off a path.
What the hell do you know, you clown? Some crap you read in a 1987 issue of TIME magazine about why US soldiers are superior to those of the downtrodden zombie-like communist horde?
I don't have much to contribute to this site in the critique obscure code, but I did play D&D, AD&D, Gamma World, GURPS, and cyberpunk 2020. Furthermore I spent 2 years in the Headquarters company of the 2/75th Airborne Ranger regiment in Ft. Lewis WA as a mortar gunner.
All military doctrine is built on absolute discipline, and the better the unit the more severe the discipline. Do you think truck drivers are subjected to the same discipline as SEALS? No, because 1) they would die 2) their jobs don't require it. Good combat units have as much or more rigorous discipline than bootcamp, and the only flexibility allowed is in the 2 minute warmup prior to an 8 mile run. If somebody has a neat new idea, here's the procedure: you mention it to your immediate superior, get laughed at and/or disciplined, and then proceed in doing things the tried and tested way. For the love of god, I tell you these guys still spend half an hour every day polishing their non-waterproof boots because the officers don't trust any footwear that's seen less than 30 years of war.
I was gonna add: if the Israeli army doesn't want weirdos who have a skewed sense of reality in their ranks, then they probably shouldn't accept fundamentalist religious types who believe the earth is 6000 years old or that god will send you to hell for all eternity for eating a goat, what with cloven hooves being unclean and all.
The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.'
And virtually anything else that resembles reality in Medieval society.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Not to be mean but some of you trekkie / D&D types are really scary. Don't get me wrong, I love to program, but I get scared when I see your long greasy hair/cowboy hat/D&D attire.
2 years and no mod points. Join reddit. Because openness is good.
I'm almost certain I told my recruiter (US Air Force) that I played D&D. In fact when I joined, I had a weekly game going on at the rec center across the street from the recruiter's office, with military players involved. I most definitely told told the recruiter I smoked pot (but was quitting, which I did for four years).
They gave me a TS SCI clearance. Also, the Army hired me years later and gave me a Secret... (or they tried... I quit before it came through, nearly two years later. Still, I had a interim secret clearance for that period)
On the other hand... If anyone had ever stuck a gun in my hand and told me to shoot someone, I'd have probably deserted.
To address what you mentioned about radical Christians supporting Israel: you are wrong in that it is only radical Christians; almost all Protestant churches now openly proclaim support for Israel. Also, this support is not contigent on Christian end-time beliefs, as some progressives would have you believe.
Hope that gives you a better knowledge of why we support Israel and the Jewish people.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
Am I then only one that see's a bunch of soldiers with rocks yelling
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
Enemy in big homemade suit = "RAWGRAWGRAWRG"
Soldier = "LIGHTNING BOLT!!! LIGHTNING BOLT!!"
D&D. Runequest. Warhammer. Heroquest. Everquest. Lineage. Worlds of Warcraft Battlefield 1941? Dark Ages of Camelot The Sims Online? There are a LOT of "fantasy" reality games out there and they are only increasing. Having played D&D and Everquest, let me tell you the folks playing everquest are a lot farther out from reality (some spending 60+ hours a week in game) than the average D&D Player (6 hours a week, maybe less). Some D&D players are spacy- some are hard headed realists. Some movie buffs are spacy- some just like movies a lot. It sounds like the DFF is sterotyping a huge group of people based on a part of it's population.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
I think you hit the nail on the head. I wish I had mod points for your post.
Being impressionable and in a sensitive position means you are ripe for the harvest in a counter intelligence situation. You will be much easier to convert to the opposition's cause as it will be much easier to have you see the issue from their point of view and develop sympathy for their position.
A flexible mindset isn't automatically an overly flexible mindset; it's just that much more prone to changes over time. A changed mindset and set of beliefs can manifest as treason.
So, in a way, the IDF is doing those soldiers a favor. They protecting Israel from an increased likelihood of treason, and they're protecting those soldiers from themselves.
Yeah, it's kind of a control freak thing, but it *is* a military organization.
Please mod this post only if you think others should/n't read this. I have enough ego^H^H^Hkarma. Thanks!
Perhaps that's the reason? They're worried that the soldiers will try and cooperate with the enemies to maximize the richness of their war stories?
In all seriousness, D&D with its levels and experience points, encourages the mindset that advancement/promotion merely comes from working hard, and that everyone does it eventually. Not to mention the fact that in D&D one gets experience points from 1) Killing things ("Why can't I be a seargeant? I killed thirteen terrorists last month!") or 2) Collecting loot. Now, I'm the number two directive of the IDF (after national defense etc) is "Don't piss off the palestinians, neighboring Arabs, and other countries any more than you absolutely have to." You can see how wanton killing and plundering would violate this.
...I put on my robe and wizard hat...
Perhaps someone should make a sports-based RPG, like playing basketball or football or football with a bunch of dice-rolling.
...or has this already been done?
People still play D&D? I thought it was all just a joke for nerds that lived in the '80s.
// This is not a sig.
The game has also increased in popularity due to the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy. Yeah, before 1955 D&D wasnt NEARLY as popular...
WTF? First of all, goats are kosher. Second of all, an animal MUST have cloven hooves to be Kosher. If it doesn't have cloven hooves it CAN'T be eaten.
Or try the HTML version. (Much nicer formatting.)
Everyone who writes fiction about people, I would add to that list. Damn weak-personalitied losers, the lot of them.
It's not a lie. It's the truth with lossy compression.
I don't know about you but I certainly don't want the guy next to me in the fox-hole rolling for initiative before deciding to fire. Besides, the pointy wizard's hats stick out of the top of most fox-holes.
"It's difficult to meditate on amphetamines." - Joe Walsh
Flamebaiting aside, the article does not say that the Israeli army does not want D&D players. It says they are not granted security clearances as easily. This is a different issue and one I agree with you about. I don't see a good reason for it. It implies that D&D players are not as good at keeping secrets. Upon reflection, I wonder how you can really design a good test for this criterion?
Currently hooked on AMP
"I went over to the sargent, said, "Sargeant, you got a lot a damn gall to ask me if I've rehabilitated myself, I mean, I mean, I mean that just, I'm sittin' here on the bench, I mean I'm sittin here on the Group W bench 'cause you want to know if I'm moral enough join the army, burn women, kids, houses and villages after bein' a litterbug." He looked at me and said, "Kid, we don't like your kind, and we're gonna send you fingerprints off to Washington."
It's simple: I demand prosecution for torture.
Shh ... you'll ruin his happy ignorance.
Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
make them role play...ain't it a funny world!
The article (at least the original one in Hebrew) doesn't talk about D&D but about LARPing (apparently it was mistranslated). Also these people are not automatically discarded but go through a psychological evaluation to decide whether they might pose a problem. The article mentions that about 50% of these people don't receive a security clearance, which means that 50% of them do get it. The problem with the other 50% being that they have trouble distinguishing between reality and fantasy (this decided after a thorough psychological evaluation and not just because the army doesn't like the games they play). Obviously the IDF believes that LARPing might be a symptom of a psychological problem but not necessarily the problem itself.
When Geiger counters are outlawed, only mutants will have Geiger counters
I think we need to import this idea to the US. Imagine if you couldn't be drafted or join the military if you'd played D&D...
"Poor kid, he played D&D at 15, now he can't get a free ticket to Iraq!"
Id be more worried about recruits who have been directly affected by suicide attacks because it just fuels the circle of violence and ends up with them sniping kids or running people over in bulldozers. no way do i trust an 18 year old (or most other people for that matter) with a gun and raging hormones who has seen his best friend, girl friend or parents blown up, to act responsibly and professionally and without bias and in the situation that Israel and Palestine are in one soldier can do way too much damage, same goes for the other side but hey.
Not trying to thread-jack, just think they need to get their priorities straight.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
If you want lightweight rules, try GURPS lite, available as a free download from your buddies at Steve Jackson games.
Why is it that the proponents of "one nation under God" are so eager to get rid of "liberty and justice for all"?
I was actually thinking of a pen-and-paper game, but thanks for reminding me--it's been a while since I last played FFX.
Just remember that you know that lobotomy and ECT don't work because some experts told you.
Victims of 9/11: <3000. Traffic in the US: >30,000/y
I was never terribly impressed with GURPs. I like Fudge a lot better. It can be very rules light, and I've even got to the stage where I don't even use attributes any more.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Your current sig:
Yellow ribbon magnets on cars- true patriotism or just a fad? Support the troops, acknowledge the lies behind the war.
With a cousin in Regular Army (meaning that he's in for life), I opted for the blue ribbon. Its message: "Bring Home Our Troops". I only wish they'd designed it with the message in boldface instead of wimpy italics.
Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
So, if you want to bring up playing around with fantasies...
Um, let's say someone believes that his country has a right to occupy a piece of land because 3000 or so years ago his ancestor obediently offered up his son to be a human sacrifice because a voice he heard in his head told him to. The voice in his head later rescinded its instructions to kill the guy's son, because he showed that he would value the approval of the voice in his head over that of a little boy one of his wives dropped off for him. This of course showed that human sacrifice was a-okay with the people of time, of course, but that's a talk for another time.
Okay, and then we have the guy who obtained great favor with his voice in his head when he offered up his virgin daughter to the mob for rape and/or murder if the would leave the three guys (who he suspected to be angels) alone.
Then we another guy who listened to the voice in HIS head which told him to clear town with his family because the voice was fixing to burn everyone alive because they were pissing the voice off. A wife looked back as they were leaving, the guy says, and was turned into a box of Morton's salt. At least that's what he told her kin when they asked where the hell she was.
Then we have the guy who heard a voice telling him to build a boat, put two of everything in it, and wait out a world flood which later no one else remembers happening, like, say, the Chinese, having been around for 4000 years or more.
That's reality-based community, not like them D&D fantasists.
You wouldn't want people who had strange ideas about reality in the ranks of your specialist armed forces.
If IDF thinks D&D are bad, what do they think of MMORPGers?
Dammy
No one touches my Dark Ages of Camelot, no one gets hurt!
Simply not true. Our army and the soviet's army have a lot more in common than you think.
Hey, I'm not saying that the Red Army had a single strategy of "send wave after wave of cannon fodder until the enemy collapses" (though they did use this tactic on occasion in WW2). All I'm saying is that the Red Army did not value the same degree of "individual initiative" the US Army does. The fact of the matter is that the Red Army expected the officers and mid- to senior-grade NCOs to direct the actions of the privates and junior NCOs, and they were expected to obey. This is basically true of any army, but the Red Army took it to the extreme that (say) if their officers were killed, a motorized rifle platoon would often be at a loss to continue until they could get the company commander to assign an officer to them to relay orders. The divide between the "head" and the "body" was a lot wider, mostly because the filled the lower ranks with conscripts fulfilling their compulsory service.
Ask the Nazi's what they thought of the soviet army.
The Nazi high command mostly thought they were crazy hordes of untrained peasants, and that whatever skill they appeared to have in night fighting or camouflage was due to the "natural cunning of the slav" rather than training. Their asessment was, naturally, in error. My grandfather, a private in the Wehrmacht at Stalingrad, did not concur with this sentiment.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Now that you mention it, yes!
Slow down, cowboy! It has been 4 hours since you last posted. You must wait another few hours.
From the article:
Ynetnews has learned that 18-year-olds who tell recruiters they play the popular fantasy game are automatically given low security clearance.
Then, later:
"One of the tests we do, either by asking soldiers directly or through information provided us, is to ask whether they take part in the game," he says. "If a soldier answers in the affirmative, he is sent to a professional for an evaluation, usually a psychologist."
More than half of the soldiers sent for evaluation receive low security clearances, thus preventing them from serving in sensitive IDF positions, he says.
Half of the soldiers being given low security clearances after being sent for psychological evaluation isn't the same thing as "automatic." Which one is it, Ynet?
I bet it is hard to find kosher disc anyway... sigh.
Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter. - Martin Luther King, Jr.
but I guess the non-brutal, loving members of Hezbollah probably roll play all the time. "ok ali - roll this 20 sided dice to see how many children you killed on the bus you just suicide bombed"
Don't worry - D&D players feel the same way about the IDF. =P Seriously though, I always thought that all the numbers and stats floating around in D&D were probably helpful to intellectual development. With absolutely nothing to back up my case (much like TFA) I'd tend to believe that D&D veterans actually have an intellectual edge over people that simply run around a track or kick a ball around a field throughout their education. And if they are smarter then perhaps they really do frown upon the IDF.
I'd expect this sort of stupidity in a country that has the luxury of indulging fat-and-happy bureaucracy, but not so much in a tiny country surrounded by a sea of people who want them all dead.
/. If the government wants us to respect the law, it should set a better example.
AD&D wasn't just another book. It was an entire line of rulebooks. AD&D was derived from D&D, but had more complicated rules and options. The main different I remember is that in D&D character races were also classes (you played an Elf class). With AD&D, the were separate (You could play an Elf whose is of the fighter class). When WoTC bought TSR and created the 3rd edition, they dropped the advanced from the name. I have pretty much every rulebook since the original "whitebox" and can readily see firsthand D&D's changes throughout the years.
Anonymous Cowards suck.
Anyone that has walked into a gaming shop where there were multiple gamers knows the gamer stench. Unwashed, greasy teenagers are easier for the enemies to detect and that detracts from their soldiering.
I work with a retired Air Force Captain who has the same perspective. As he explains it, either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops. Neither is excusable for an officer in the armed forces.
The corollary being that the soldiers who are taking the blame for it are, in a way, scapegoats, because the liability goes up the chain and somebody is getting away with it.
They want very particular types of initiative, in particular the initiative to take command of a situation when necessary. What they do not want is people who question authority.
I did some research a while back on the differences between eastern and western military doctrine in World War II. One of the keys was the the Soviets, for various reasons, allowed very little command flexibility in their ranks. Operations were planned to extremely minute details and all subordinates were expected to stick to the plan no matter what (one big reason was they had poor communications infrastructure to change the plan dynamically).
The west, in contrast, had less detailed plans, and relied on their officers adapting their tactics to the facts on the ground as they appeared.
Maybe getting turned down for military service or being religated to a low clearance desk job is not such a bad thing?
i just want to play go
I've seen the same thing. In fact, me and my girlfriend were having a conversation about this last night, but not about D&D. Her sister's kids are really into pokemon. They've memorized extensive lists of monsters, their abilities and stats, and how they compare to each other. They make up their own pokemon-like games spontaneously.
The core mechanics and memes of roleplaying games have exploded in popularity among kids these days, just in a different more socially acceptable form. I can't prove it, but I think it'll have a great effect on the intellectual developments of kids. They're motivated, by the competition of playing the game and the cooperation/competition of trading cards, to learn new skills such as memorizing many statistics and relationships, assessing the strength of an opponent, predicting the outcome of a confrontation/interaction, assesing the trustability of a trading partner, building trust relationships, basics of a barter economy... The list goes on!
And it's all the child of D&D.
I wonder what it is about D&D they object to. Is it the fantasy aspects of it? What about roleplayers who the Star Wars RPG or a modern based RPG like Spycraft? Are they in the same group? Also, do they object to the time and devotion given to the game or the fact they are playing an imaginary character? If so, what about all-strategy games like Warhammer? It would seem to me that wargamers might actually be looked upon favorably in the military due their familiarity with strategy.
It's been a while. The last I played was the AD&D 3rd edition. I had no idea they reverted the name back to plain old D&D.
Wasn't there, in one of the earlier rule sets of D&D, a series of rule books like "Basic", "Medium", "Advanced"? I seem to remember the first one was Basic, and I also seem to remember the advanced book, there may have been more than one in between.
In any case, I thought that the way D&D was set up a while back, was that there was a series of rule books, each book covering the character development rules for a set of levels, like "Basic" might have been for levels 1-6 or 1-10, something like that, then after that level you used a different book in the series to define the character development/progress.
Maybe I'm just making that up...but I'm pretty sure I remember it being set up something like that when I started playing in the med to late 80's.
A modern day witchhunt.
first, rpg is russian for ruchnoy protivotankovy granatomet - portable antitank-grenade launcher. such things are called bazookas in usa, as far as i know.
second, do you really think, palestinian villages own tanks? because shaped charges are only used for penetrating armor, they are practically useless against people.
Conservatism: The fear that somewhere, somehow, someone you think is your inferior is being treated as your equal.
Ah, I see your confusion now. Yes, there were boxed sets like that (there were 5--Basic, intermediate, expert, master, and immortal I like was the progression). They were all D&D. But I can see your confusion think the progression led to advanced. It doesn't.
Anonymous Cowards suck.
Just did some googling (since I couldn't find my DM/Players guide right now), the last rule set I played with (and own the books for) was AD&D 2nd edition, I've been saying 3rd ed., but that was incorrect
l
Also read up more, and I guess we were playing with the D&D books after the split occured where you had Basic and Expert, as opposed to the AD&D set. I guess I've just gotten that confused with the word "advanced", thinking that "advanced" was another of those books in the Basic/Expert series.
http://www.lyberty.com/encyc/articles/d_and_d.htm
A modern day witchhunt.
God, they should at least give them a d20 to roll with to decide security clearance.
Often in Error, Never in Doubt.
Just wait till this schmuck runs in to the Call of Cthulhu fans. He's going to have a real fun time with that.
But, who knows, if you give him to us for a few days in a sound proof room he might come out agreeing with us... nevermind the bruises and cuts (and the odd way he twitches), please.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
Clear, concise, and full of factual information and such.
But I failed my Charisma check.
Sorry guys, you miss out on some great writing.
You will be baked, and there will be cake.
Erm, you don't join to the Israeli army, you get drafted in. It's not a matter of they want you or not, if you live in Israel and a Jew, you will end up in the army and will keep rank and title for the rest of your life, as a reserve.
Now anyone who complains about this will be labeled an antisemite.
LK
"Hi. This is my friend, Jack Shit, and you don't know him." - Lord Kano
Sorry, I disagree.
While discipline IS essential, absolute discipline is not. Possibly the most important thing for an elite unit is being smart and adaptable. If you receive an order to destroy an enemy observation post so a surprise attack can occur, but find a machine gun nest with a good field of fire, it may be more important to destroy that first. You need to be smart to realize that is more important, and adaptable to change your plans to cope with it. If you blindly follow your orders, more people are going to die.
Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline
If absolute discipline were all that was required of an elite unit, why would intelligence be a requirement for those elite units? Want to join the SEALs, Marine Force Recon, FAST Battalion or Green Berets? You better be able to score well on general intelligence tests and on practical tests within your field. If discipline was the be-all end-all of elite units then they would be full of people who couldn't think their way out of a wet paper bag.
BTW - While I was at the SEAL training facility in Virginia, they didn't worry about polished boots. They didn't worry about having their utilities pressed. They didn't worry about their appearance. They worried about what their job was and how to be ready for it.
I played D&D, AD&D, Top Secret, Gamma World, Boot Hill, Top Secret SI and Robotech. I also MUDed way too many hours.
I was also a Marine Rifleman. I served with the Fleet Antiterrorism Security Team (FAST) Co. Have achievement medals from the Marines and the Army (Joint Operation). Was a squad leader and a platoon sergeant and a company gunnery sergeant; and I wanted people who could think on their own in my squad/platoon/company.
Also, the Marines doctrine was based on mission accomplishment and not absolute discipline. So your statement of "all military doctrine" kind of goes out the window.
Stanford.
The safest way to approach lava is to have another person with you and he goes first.
I do not mean to cast aspersions on D and D players, but if IDF says that people who indulge in fantasy games, as a statistical group, have personality traits that make them a lower security risk, then I am inclined to believe them.
If you look at the ratio of black people in the US prison system to whites, and compare that to the ratio in the general population, you might say that African-Americans are more prone to crime, and thus shouldn't be trusted. How is one statement any less Predjudice than the other?
Oh, and since you post to Slashdot, you don't mind if the police search your house for pirated software, since slashdot posters are more prone to participate in piracy, do you?
"I am an equal oppurtunity cynic, I hate everyone equally"
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Me and a bunch of friends were some of the original game add-on designers at SFU for AD&D (heck, I've still got stuff that Gary Gygax signed, and a bunch of the original versions of the books), and I ended up holding a SECRET clearance in the Canadian Armed Forces.
...
I suggest that this stunt will result in a 1D4 roll for self-inflicted damage to the Isreali Army, as RPG players are frequently better able to compartmentalize information learned with a higher classification and only release that which is appropriate, as well as how to deal with semi-conflicting rules sets to preserve the intention of security.
But, hey, what do I know - I was only Acting Security Officer for the whole Pacific Region
-- Tigger warning: This post may contain tiggers! --
D&D I can do without. Diablo RPG? OK, similar subject matter, satan's in the title, fine. But is it unChristian to futuristic role playing games like Warhammer? I know now that Magic is bad, but what about Pokemon? Oh god. Please don't say WoW is off limits! I WOULD JUST HANG MYSELF.
The military would certainly reject me on the grounds that I am Chaotic Evil, and just as likely to fire on my comrades as the enemy --- discriminating bastards.
Chaotic neutral is the best alingment to be. I might shoot an enemy. I might throw a greande into a friend's tent. I might help an nun cross a busy street. I might quit the army to become a nun. Who knows? I sure as hell don't. It will be as much as a suprise to me as everyone else...
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
was gonna add: if the Israeli army doesn't want weirdos who have a skewed sense of reality in their ranks, then they probably shouldn't accept fundamentalist religious types who believe the earth is 6000 years old or that god will send you to hell for all eternity for eating a goat, what with cloven hooves being unclean and all.
Funny you should mention that. Orthodox are not subject to the draft.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
Recruits who are fans of 'Ozzy' Osbourne are automatically given low security clearance as well, while those who enjoy the "Heavy Metal" band Judas Priest are automatically put on suicide watch.
Where is the Israeli army getting their youth culture intelligence... 1982?
It would appear to me that the Israeli army isn't saying "All D&D players are X and shouldn't be given clearance". It does semm that they are saying "If you fail this psychological check, then we're not letting you near sensitive stuff."
I've been a gamer for a long, long time. Vampire, Mage, Werewolf, D&D, Call of Cthulhu and Cthulhu Live, even some old Grups. Honestly, I have to say that , to me, sombunal gamers shouldn't be near any weapons... ever.
RPG's and LARPS attract intelligent, quick witted, imaginative and resourcful people. That makes up about 20% of most gamers. Gaming also attracts the socialy inept, the clinically depressed, boarderline psychopaths, and a host of rather odd people. Of course, those same sets of people also play online games, card games, etc etc etc.
The Israeli army isn't doing itself any favors by focusing on D&D, they'd be much better off getting everyone's head examined (Dear Gods, they need their heads examined for actually permitting the government to have a mandatory draft to begin with.)
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of The ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie-Mooglie Cabal
I'm not detached from reality, I'm just customizing it.
Get a life, not a lifestyle. - Hikem Bey
Hey guys,
It's part of their religion. They see D&D as one of the highest forms of witchcraft. Read the first five chapter of Christian bible, the laws of Moses:
Exodus 20:3-5 Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me.(The Ten Commandments)
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.
Deuteronomy 18:10-11 There shall not be found among you [any one] that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, [or] that useth divination, [or] an observer of times, or an enchanter, or a witch, or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.
Beyond the Book of Law there is:
1 Samuel 15:23 For rebellion [is as] the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness [is as] iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the LORD, he hath also rejected thee from [being] king.
2 Chronicles 33:6 And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.
Before you start piling on, why not at least understand their mindset.
You say things that offend me and I can deal with it. Can you?
you do realize "lower security risk" would merit higher security clearance? i think you meant to say "lower security clearance," like in the summary.
Was anyone else readig the cartoon and waiting for the erotica to begin?
Welcome to the land of the free...pay toll ahead...no photography...please open your bag...
After all, these people have some of the best clinical and occupational psychologists in the world working for them.
Really? Doesn't seem so to me. Some possible theories why the IDF is skeptical of roleplayers (TFA says D&D, but seem to refer to RPGs and LARPs in general):
- RPGs do have a bad image due to some Christian fundamentalists spreading FUD. The same Christians are avid supporters of Israel and Zionism so maybe the IDF actually believed these guys.
- there's a higher percentage of left-leaning among roleplayers than among the general population. This may also be the case in Israel. Beeing a roleplayer thus makes you more likely to be exposed to leftists. This is indeed a security issue.
- roleplayers are more individualistic and creative and thus less likely to accept orders without questioning.
- the IDF are prejudiced. Psychologists have a tendency to view everything trough psychologist-glasses. This makes "escapism" a bad thing.
- some idiot deceided this some years ago and nobody has corrected it since due to hiearchy issues.
- the IDF are idiots
Probably a combination of some of the above.
Evolution is just a scientific theory. Creationism is not.
Yep, thats why they aren't a true Historical "Reenactment" Society, but an Historical Recreation Society.
The swords and fights and brewing and leather and all that other stuff is the trappings around a 30some year old cult to the ideals of Chivalric Honor and Courtly Love. It's a 30some year old hippie fest, where many people value honor and their word over anything else. It a great big game with 13,000 total strangers that would be more than happy to pick up a weapon and play at my side.
It's a 30some year old Cult to Dionysus and if you don't believe me... come to Pennsic and hang out near the lake. If Vlad's isn't a Dionysian Ritual, then I'll eat lutefisk.
Ratatosk, Squirrel of Discord
Chatterer of the Words of Eris
Muncher of the ChaoAcorn
POEE of The Great Googlie Mooglie Cabal
AKA
Lord Lewys ap Deykin,
Warder of The Marche of Tirnewydd
Rapier Champion of the Barony of the Middle Marches
Get a life, not a lifestyle. - Hikem Bey
Just so it's clear, the article is talking about RD&D (the kind you play fully costumed) and not D&D (the kind you play with paper and dice).
"Programming is life, the rest is mere details"
Maybe now he'll do one of those tract comix on how reading Slashdot will send you straight to Hell! I can see it now: "Satan has mod points"
One line blog. I hear that they're called Twitters now.
They should also include players of Evercrack and the Sims.
-ted
I've read some of the comments and aparently there were some mistranslations. Anyway, after a psychoogical evaluation, many of these people who play a game similar to D&D (not D&D itself) are given low security clearance cause they don't have a clear sense of reality.
Now think about all those RPG players in your dorm rooms. I'm not sure about you guys, but I knew quite a few who were in the lobby playng EVERY NIGHT and they never took a shower. Man they smelled bad.
Not all RPG players were like that, but there was a good percentile that really did have troulbe escaping that fantasy world.
Better you stick to the cloven chicken. Err. Umm. I mean... Hmm.
What's cloven?
Oh I know! Pig! Stick to pig! That's kosher!
Sarcasm aside, goats really are kosher.
The key difference between a Programmer and a Senior Programmer is that one of them is Mexican.
OK, maybe creative type people aren't so grounded in reality, but religious wackos are way, WAY worse. Take a look at most of the problems in the world today - almost all of them are caused, or made worse, by religious fanaticism.
-ted
I dunno, talk to members of the Jewish diaspora that aren't Orthodox and are under 60, and you'd be shocked at the utter lack of support for the state of Israel. It is definitely higher than the atheists that they share their other political beliefs with, but it isn't that pro-Israel...
The American "Christian Zionists" seem to be much more pro-Israel than any other group...
Not happy about it, just observing it...
Alex
As for the IDF automatically lowering RPG-ers security clearances,
RTFA. The IDF does not automatically lowers the security clearance of recruits who proclaim they play D&D. These recruits are sent to a psychological evaluation. More than half of these are found to have psychological traits that are not wanted in high security clearance positions.
Um... No. Ultra-Orthodox people get an extension of release from Draft, much as some students in universitites do. The fact that it is indefinite, is a different issue. Orthodox men serve in the military. Orthodox -women- are not subject to draft, unless they want to be.
--To the post above concerning religious fanatics--
A) if we didn't eat cloven hooves, we'd all be vegetarian.
B) it is a known issue in the army that Orthodox boys and girls do not make good soldiers. The reason, however, is that they learn too much independent thought, and are encouraged to constantly question the system. If you are so ignorant of Judaism that you confuse the simplest and most commonly known rules of it, however, I can't expect you to figure out other elementaries.
Would you really want THESE guys in charge of national security?
-R
Um... No. Ultra-Orthodox people get an extension of release from Draft, much as some students in universitites do.
Good point. There is a distinction between orthodox and ultra-orthodox I missed.
The fact that it is indefinite, is a different issue.
If an extension is indefinate, that person is not subject to the draft. Same idea with women, if you can choose not to enter the military, you are not subject to a draft. Let's not quibble with indefinate extensions.
Somewhere, something incredible is waiting to be known. -- Carl Sagan
If they were playing Testament instead of just straight D&D, I'm sure they wouldn't be running into any problems. :)
-------
"Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
Sorry, you're confusing self discipline in personal details with conformation to doctrinal procedures. As an avid D&D player in High School, a West Point grad and an ex M1 officer, I can tell you that if you can't think on your feet and figure out a new way to skin the cat, you won't survive long in mobile armored warfare, let alone dismounted urban warfare.
Recognize also the level you were working at and your particular unit. You didn't get to see how creative your battalion commander had to get to handle his missions with the incredibly lean Ranger force.
If you still doubt me, go back to some of the officers you admired most and ask them about operational and tactical flexibility. Get comfortable, you'll be there a while.
"...and labels them problematic in regard to their draft status." So if you want to draft dodge, make sure you come to your interview in tinfoil armour, tell your recruiter that you play 46 hours of D&D a week, your real name is Bjorn Stronginthearm, and roll the dice before you answer any of their questions.
Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity.
- General George Patton Jr
Great people don't need people to complete them, great people complete other people. -- Matthew Pawlikowski.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
swiss rolls rock, especially if you're a student with a sweet tooth ;)
"The marine corps doesn't want mindless drones who cant think for themselves. the marine corps wants killers." -- Full Metal Jacket.
Lightning Bolt Lightning Bolt Lightning Bolt!!!!!
Geez if people actually believed this strip I would think it would make them want to play more DnD. DnD as training to be a real witch and get magic powers. Sign me up!. Scary last frame with the "good guys" at the bonfire.
I miss playing AD&D. I would still play if life didn't get in the way. Have to settle for the occaisional CRPG binge now and then.
I thought the idea was to put your highest score in the spot where it'll benefit your class most (i.e. 18 goes to CHA for a sorcerer). That way your character is above average, which is what a charater is supposed to be anyway. That's why they adventure and not farm. I have a half-elf sorceress w/STR 10 CHA 18, which means she's really hot, but has average strength (for an adventurer, not a housewife) is that MIN/MAX'ing? Are you supposed to place the abilities in the order you roll them? Cause there's like 3-4 different ways to roll out a char in the DM guide. (I'm gonna get so flamed for this post)
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Yeah I forgot Robotech, that was an awesome game. Gladiator mechs rule, but they looked kind of fat, so I used Excaliburs.
Now to your post: the reason high scores on aptitude tests are required for elite units is not because they show that you're a smart person. Rather they show that you're not a total dumbass. The kind of dumbass who should never be trusted with large amounts of explosives in politically sensitive areas (eg. the catastrophe at Desert One, where a nameless dumbass ordered a well-disciplined soldier to fire a rocket at a fuel truck, thus turning a "top-secret nighttime desert rendezvous point" into a "bunch of dudes brightly illuminated by furious 200-foot flames visible for hundreds of miles in all directions" right before another dumbass flew his helicopter directly into the back of a parked transport plane, which destroyed our fighting reputation in the middle east for a decade but at least we got the 160th SOAR out of it)
And if you think that "Smart + Adaptable > absolute discipline" in the mind of any general, you're mad. Leaders wants troops who can be ordered to run headlong across an open field under machine gun and artillery fire without so much as a "Are you fucking nuts!?!" in reply. If you're telling a hundred guys (or maybe a thousand) how to do something more complex than any dozen football games and chess matches combined with the full knowledge of all parties that mistakes will cost lives (and maybe your plan itself even requires it), you don't want no backseat drivers or anyone second guessing or doubting or doing their own thing. Ever see a roomful of Ph.D's** trying to get something done?
Discipline is the most reliable predictor of mission accomplishment. Smarts are better than dumb, but the ability to stick unswervingly to the plan, even at the cost of your life, is paramount, no question. There's plenty of great soldiers who can hardly read, but there's no such thing as a good soldier who thinks his own personal judgement can ever outweigh his orders. That's why it's a plausible defense for soldiers who participate in massacres and torture to say that they were just following orders.
**-without a rigorous pecking order
The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.'
In other news, women frown on D&D, by disallowing players access to their sensitive areas...
I currently have no clever signature witicism to add here.
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
... of having the right D&D player as a solider is that he'll only take half damage if he's shot!
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
Interesting post.
Of course you want discipline, you want to make sure that if your strategy says a unit is going to be at place X at time Y doing Z, you don't want somebody coming up with a better idea. Probably the reason I'd never make a decent soldier -- too much ADHD.
But I wonder if you might not be be exaggerating the evils of thinking on your feet just a bit. So, you have a battle plan that's gone to hell, and a squad that's being lead by a senior sargeant with twenty years of training under his belt. Is he really supposed to sit on his ass and wait for orders from on high?
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
Much (but not all) of the 'shut up and blindly follow any orders' attitude on the part of the Red Army came from the political imperative of keeping down the only force that could conceivably threaten the power of the communist party. Hence the political officers, who could on occasion overrule the regular officers.
After the initial shock of the invasion the soldiers in the red army became very effective, parlty because in the desperate times with national survival at stake some of the totalitarian bullshit was swept aside. The political officers lost their primacy, for instance, during the 1942 nazi offensive, IIRC. And the individual soldiers either learned to think on their own, or got killed.
It got to a point that, when the war was nearly over, Stalin was quite alarmed (the red army and its commanders, e.g., Zhukov*, being very and deservingly popular), and moved quickly to reassert the political control over the army.
____________________
* All postwar soviet leaders felt threatned by Zhukov`s popularity. After the war he was sent to a far-off command where he could pose no threat to Stalin. he was briefly back in the center of power under Khrushchev, before being kicked out of the central comitee. He made one last public apearence with Brejhnev. The response was so overwhelming (people were clapping and banging on the table, yelling his name) he was sent back to retirement almost imediatly.
Back when I was an undergraduate, a History professor had this saying taped to his door:
"The reason the American Army is so good at war is that war is chaos, and the American military practices chaos on a daily basis." - From a World War II German Army War Manual
JA
http://www.johnalex.org/
I've played D&D or some other RPG (here in the US) most of my 31 years, and I for one think it's probably a good idea. I've known A LOT of creepy gamers of high school age aspiring to and then enlisting in the marines. These aren't stable people, they usually don't have a lot of friends, have some messed up social habits, and have a love for guns and weapons that quickly makes me uncomfortable. I can only guess at their motivation for military service, but I'm pretty confident it's not primarily to better ones character and earn money for college.
Since the service in Israel is compulsory, I wonder if there is an statictically high rate of D&D players there that don't conform well to military service.
I did know a lot of Israelis that played on MUDs.
-dynamo
News flash, the indians were fighting the Americans as well. It wasn't totally one sided, but the tech gap and population gap eventually made sure that the Americans finished on top of the heathen savages.
Viral software licensing is not freedom, it is in fact GNU/Socialism.
The Defense Language Institute has without any doubt the highest concentration of role players (including, disturbingly, LARPers) of any place I have ever even HEARD of barring a gaming convention.
These are people who, if pass, almost always get Top Secret clearances.
The good news is: LARPers seem to be really good at failure.
Wow, your post is ignorant on so many levels, where do I begin..
For starters, Jews don't believe in a hell. In Scripture God lays out some foods that are healthy and others that are unhealthy. If we break that law, we are not going to the lakes of burning brimstone; your Christian religionist leaders invented that one.
Perhaps coincidentally, virtually all the unhealthy foods God mentions are all scientifically proven as unhealthy. A vast majority of the dietary laws are against the eating of scavengers, vultures, bottom-feeders; food that has proven to be unhealthy for humans to eat. There are a few (such as pig) that people eat today, but perhaps the modern farm-raised pigs of today are different from the wild pigs of Biblical times.
Chewing the cud: read about it in a science book. It's a way animals, such as cows, digest plants in the most efficient way nature can get them, by regurgitating the food and chewing it, breaking it down so the body can extract more nutrients. It's really an amazing part of nature. And despite biblical man's lack of scientific knowledge, we now know that most animals that chew the cud are indeed healthy for humans to consume because of the science behind chewing the cud.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
I have problems associating with reality, see my profile (Space Pirate from 4096 AD). :)
I played D&D, AD&D, Traveller, Marvel Super Heros, and a few others.
I scored high on the ASVAB tests well within the top 8% of the scores. I went into US Army ROTC classes and almost enlisted in 1986-1987. College was too stressful for me, and my mental illness took over, and I withdrew. If it hadn't, I'd be in the Gulf War as an Officer.
I held US Army Top Secret clearance when I worked as a Federal Contractor. I was able to do the job, though I did still suffer from the mental illnesses, I was not prone to violence or anything like that.
I lost track of most of the people I played Role Playing Games with. A few are still my friends, and one was my best friend and the Game Master of many games we had. He killed himself in 1999, not over the game, but over real life situations he faced. He was deep in debt, divorced, his mother was dying of cancer, he lost his job, unemployment ran out, he couldn't find work, he became an alchaholic, etc. The only thing that kept him sane at times was playing RPGs.
Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
Actually you don't have to be jewish to get drafted into the israeli army, you just have to be an israeli citizen.. there are in fact besides jews also arabs, druze, bedouin, moslems, christians and even vietnamese in the israeli army!
My group was similar to yours in high school... everyone was pretty normal. I think the difference is, at college, the only people you know who play D&D are the weirdos who do it in public or talk about it all the time.
cooks get a Secret Clearence. not exactly hard to gte.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
You don't have a clue. US military doctrine is built on soldiers who are robots and do not think. The US Armys training is an international joke. Your soldiers are given assault rifles that do not fire fully-automatic because they are deemed inadequetly trained to be responsible for managing their ammo, ffs.
You are clueless. An automatic weapon rides up as you fire it and it gets off target. The M16 is very very accurate weapon in the hands of a properly trained soldier. There is no reason for having an automatic mode on it. The 3 round burst in the M16A2 model is perfect for suppressive fire without getting off target, or wasting ammo. The selector level on an AK47 goes from safe, to auto, to semi-auto. The reason it goes to auto 1st is that you cannot hit the broadside of a barn with it from 100 meters, and the user of the weapon is a undiscipline peasant. The US Marines qualify at 800 meters on the M16 and the Army at 300 meters.
As to the rest of your load of shit, having been in the Army (1st SF) I can tell you we handed the heads to many other nations troops when training and running OPFOR.
"de oppresso libre"
I have heard the same type of language from both the IRA and the UVF in Northern Ireland. Remember that Dire Straights line 'two men think their Jesus, one of 'em must be wrong'. When you have two groups of people who think that there is no alternative but to anahilate the other the answer is not to decide which side to join.
An occupying force that confiscates land to build settlements is intending to annex the occupied territory, building settlements is an act of aggression, not self defense. The one constant in the middle east is that you can rely on both sides in any conflict to act idiotically.
That is why it is such a bad idea for the US to have built permanent military bases in Iraq, no good is going to come of that. The idea seems to be to try to force the interim government to sign a permanent lease as was done in Cuba and the Philipeans.
Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
Part of it has to do with lack of refrigeration.
Pork doesn't keep very well in hot Israeli climates. Also, salting meat (to remove blood) helps preserve it.
Furthermore, pigs spread disease. The flu, for example, usually evolves in bird populations, but usually can't be transmitted from birds to humans. It can, however, be passed from birds to pigs, and then a pig with a flu virus can pass it to humans.
So, if there were no pig farming, we probably would not need to bother with flu shots every year.
(For the record: I'm not Jewish, just interested in the history of Hebrew law. It is one of the half-dozen-or-so oldest sets of laws we have on record, after all.)
Information wants to be anthropomorphized.
in a desert to protect our freedoms from no one.
You want to protect our freedoms? you want to do your share? become pollitically involved. Are most basic rights are underfire on capital hill right now.
In a world where a teenager is arrested because he wrote a story about zombies invading a high school, radio people are being effectivly censored, the FCC fines people for being 'indecent' without a clear definition of what that is, where the fine for saying something some jackhole doesn't like is the same as illegal human experimentation, I think we have bigger problems against are freedooms then any terrorist could do.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Yeah, it was confusing even at the time. There was also, in addition to the "Basic D&D" and "Advanced D&D" lines of books/boxed sets, a "D&D" book that was an introduction to either (it had a blue and white cover IIRC), and only covered through some low character level. This was after the original D&D "Greyhawk" books (pocket games format books), which followed the "Chainmail" book that started it all.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
I found this interesting comment at the bottom of the article that puts a bit of a different perspective on the issue:
20. Would you guys stick to the subject?
I'd like to first ask you all to read the whole article. It specifically says "In a more active version of the game" (Namely, RD&D).
Also, remember that you are reading a TRANSLATION! As someone who has read the article in Hebrew and English I can tell you that it's not a very good translation, either, as the Hebrew version mentions LARPing and RD&D specifically, with traditional D&D only mentioned as background on the game.
As for the subject at hand, I happen to know some LARPers here in Israel (In fact, I think I may know the people interviewed here...) but haven't heard of any problems with the IDF thus far. Obviously the very thought is ridiculous, you can't just generally say "LARPers are a bunch of lunatics". I'd admit that many of them are, but no more than other people enlisting.
Elad Droree , Ramat Hasharon, IL (03.09.05)
Send/track messages to 100K people: www.xPressAlert.com
Insanity
Avoid Missing Ball for High Score
of computer gamers are adult, his statment is kind of meaningless.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Cloven means split. Kosher animals other than birds and fish, which have different rules must have split hooves, and chew the cud(are herbivores like cattle, sheep , and goats). Pigs have split hooves, but don't chew the cud. That is why pork isn't kosher. Horses and donkeys are herbivores, but don't have split hooves, so they aren't kosher.
How ya like dat?
I agree with you %100.
But the post I replied to said that flexibility and smart troops were the cornerstone of US Military doctrine, and the reason I strongly disagreed was because, while I read similar things and believed them before joining the Army, it became overwhelmingly clear to me by empirical observation that stone cold discipline, not initiative or smarts or anything else, is the core characteristic that US doctrine requires of it's adherents. Pretty much like every army in the world since the beginning of time, I might add.
I've never heard of a sergeant or officer anywhere in the world who insisted on having smart troops. But all the good leaders are fanatic about arbitrarily-close-to-total discipline. I knew a guy who served under a sergeant major who had lead an infantry squad (6-12 men) in combat patrols in the jungles of Vietnam for 4 YEARS and never, EVER lost a SINGLE MAN. Dozens were wounded, himself 5 times, but every one of them was safer in his care in the midst of a savage close-quarters war than they were driving down the street of their hometown on a Friday night. He was reportedly totally nuts about having everything exactly as he ordered it, and it was, because he was know to check things (such as weapons, rations, shoelaces, or toilet paper) at odd times, like 2AM on wednesday morning or Christmas eve.
That's the kind of guy who makes the rules in the Army, and that's why I shined my cowhide boots daily and refrained from putting my hands in my pockets on a snowy night without complaining (much).
The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.'
The ideal, of course, in the modern Western state is the bureaucratic killing mind. Somebody like Eichmann, who, as Hannah Arendt told us in Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil, wept the day he was given the order to begin the destruction of German Jews...and then doggedly went to work. A touch of sentiment. The hankie. And then the killing work.
We see much the same thing in Washington and Iraq now: bureaucratic detail men, the kind for whom the life and death of entire peoples are merely different standard forms to be filed accordingly, or as in the case of the uncounted Iraqi civilian dead who are their responsibility, corpses not even to be flattered with numbers. Thinking spoils slaughter. Dispassion gets it done.
This is not to say that D&D is any guide to moral imagination. To the contrary: a fantasy life based on killing orcs might, given the right temperament and conditions, actually prove useful to some military applications. But D&D is a test of another essential quality, which is itself the enemy of the bureaucratic killing mind: you project your self into an Other, and that's the beginning of empathy. You inhabit another life, and you care for it. And you can't trust that impulse in the people to whom you assign the terrible work of colonialism.
Any references to actual people are totally on accident.
check out the best blog ever:
http://oehlberg.com
Of course, many RPGers veered off into competing rules systems, or just rolled their own over the years.
Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
You're off your nut. Canadian troops have had a huge active deployment rate. We had well over half our forces operating at all times throughout the conflicts in Yugoslavia, and in the last decade we've had troops in El Salvador, Cambodia, the Israeli-Arab border, Angola, Mozambique, Rwanda-Uganda, the Sahara, Somalia and Afganistan.
And as for the europeans, yeah, quite a lot of them are better trained as well. The British, the French, any of the nordic countries except the Swiss, they all train their troops better, and train them to be resourceful and take inititive. The US training procedures for non-special forces units are specifically designed to turn soldiers into predictable super-specialized drones. And the training periods are very short. I'm sure you're a very proud to be an American, and your soldiers are very brave and have very nice expensive equipment, but that's just a fact. None of which is intended to take away from the training your special forces recieve, they are a very different breed.
Yeah, there are regiments here in Canada that don't see a whole lot of duty, but there are others that are constantly recruiting and training because most of their soldiers are overseas.
And as for citing an example, the PLF out of Halifax regularly go down to Vermont and mop the floor with your troops during excercise. Probably all that practice they got in Yugoslavia and Afganistan.
The problem with the Canadian military is that there aren't enough of them and their toys aren't as nice. But the forces we have are trained a hell of a lot more than average training stateside.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
that's being insane.
Chaotic Neutral means you strive for neutrality outside of the law.
Sure, you might shoot your own people, but not 'just because it might balance out something.'
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
I really hope the US military rejects people that play D&D. That would be great. That way if there is a draft I can say "I play D&D" instead of lying and telling them I'm gay. Come on US military... D&D is EVIL. Paper + dice = worst soldiers ever.
check out the best blog ever:
http://oehlberg.com
...we screen out members of the IDF.
Probably redundant... I can't be bothered RTFComments
"..where many people value honor and their word over anything else."
HAHAHAH...noooo
they value the ability of the kiss ass more then anything else.
The Kruger Dunning explains most post on
Why post as AC?
-- "...I'm a bad guy because I, well, I sing some rock-and-roll songs." M. Manson
Thanks for the information, I wasn't aware of that.
<shameless plug> Since you're interested in Hebraic Law, I encourage you to visit my blog, I post regularly on some topics that you might find interesting.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
You're right about the weapon rising up on fully automatic. Canadian military doctrine says you shouldn't use fully automatic fire with a C7 (an M16 with full auto) at a range greater than 50 meters.
However, when you're clearing houses or russian style trenches, you should be throwing a grenade and following up with a full auto spray when you whip around the corner. And if you're unfortunate enough to lose your section, you won't be laying down 3 round taps, you'll be grabbing your dead buddies ammo, laying down full auto suppresive fire, and whenever you see someone stick their head up, you take them out with a double tap.
You also use full auto when you're engaging aircraft and light skin vehicles. Following a tracer to a helicopter with 3 round bursts is not as effective.
The M16 is designed the way it is for one reason. Because US military doctrine says that its soldiers can't be trusted not to panic, waste all their ammo and get blown apart. Don't get pissed at me, it's right in the manuals.
-1 Uncomfortable Truth
Probe a Christian long enough, and he'll tell you he still thinks all the Jews are going to hell for "killing Jesus".
An ignorant Christian perhaps, sadly that is true.
However, any Christian who blames someone for killing Christ totally misunderstands the purpose of Christ: to die for our sins. It doesn't matter whether Romans or Jews killed him, because his purpose was to be the sacrifice Lamb. No more need for blood sacrifices when the perfect Passover lamb of God has sacrificed himself for us so that we can live.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
either the officers ordered the troops to mistreat the prisoners, or they didn't have control of their troops.
Option 3 - liberals and other anti-war wankers had a field day with Macromedia Director et al.
Matt
Ditto. The cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy in labeling those who make and launch Qassam rockets as terrorists, while the IDF blow up crowds of innocent palestinians with their own rockets on a regular basis is mind-boggling.
I cant imagine how mentally damaged and dysfunctional the average IDF soldier must be to endose and carry out atrocities like this.. Its no small wonder their generals are screening out independant thinkers in favour of people more easily moulded into mindless unquestioning killing machines.
Dammit, why weren't you the PREVIEW button?
I was, once. Talk about a shitty job...
USE HOT GRITS WITH STATUE OF NATALIE PORTMAN (NAKED AND PETRIFIED)
There are a few (such as pig) that people eat today, but perhaps the modern farm-raised pigs of today are different from the wild pigs of Biblical times.
No pigs are the same now as they were then, in fact pigs then may well of been healthier because they wont of been intensively farmed. What IS different is our knowledge of bacteria, if your a religious leader trying your best to help your people life a healthy, happy and successful life several thousand years ago a pig (that rolls around in mud) probably doesn't seem healthy. It just made sense.
So much for the Tel Aviv Gencon next year...
"I'd rather win in an ugly car than lose in a pretty car" - Jari Lahdenpera
Hey you're right, there is no "Jewish Hell," just a bad place called Ghenna where bad folks go when they die for a couple of months. That's very fine! I've always thought that the silliest part of the Christian religion is the idea that an all-loving, all powerful, all knowing and good god would send people off to eternal torment, its and obvious contradiction to me, and contradictions are necessarily false. Except for the circumcision part, I may just convert!
Thanks, sorry about the misunderstanding. I assumed that the christians got hell from the Jews, since they got most of their ideas there. The more I look , the more it seems like they got their GOOD ideas from the hebrews, and the bad ones are mostly their own. I henceforth heartily approve of the Jewish religion!
The Christian in me says it's wrong, but the corrections officer in me says, 'I love to make a grown man piss himself.'
And the US military answers with staged court martials because if they revealed how the pictures were doctored we would learn that the pictures of the Iraqi elections were done the same way =)
Don't think of it as a flame---it's more like an argument that does 3d6 fire damage
It's a very dark ride.
And it would lead us back to the moon landing.
Matt
The thing is, that the army knows that discipline can never be absolute, that's why they stress it. The also take for granted independent thinking, but that doesn't need to be stressed. It's like physically, they know soldiers will be required to walk and run for long distances with heavy burdens, so they train for that. However, they also know that soldiers will be required to sit around and do nothing for long stretches, but they don't feel as much need to train for that, since it comes more naturally.
Cindy: What are you reading, Bobby?
Bobby: I'm just checking for new posts on Slashdot.
Cindy: But don't you realize that Cowbody Neil is a agent of Satan?
Insubstantal Demons: Don't listen to her, Bobby! Download more Bittorrent files instead!
[quote]"It's not a game of winners and losers...but rather an entry into another world with stories and plot changes"[/quote]
Sounds suspiciously like the Bush administration.
Only tyrants and oppressors need fear a well armed populace.
I came across this quote a while back, supposedly from a Russian military document:
"One of the serious problems in planning against American doctrine that the Americans do not read their manuals nor do they feel any obligations to follow their doctrine."
A legparnasom tele van angolnaval.
It really, REALLY rubs me the wrong way when people claim that science has "proved" something, as anyone who is a scientist will tell you is not possible under the Scientific Method.
Arguing about vi versus Emacs is like arguing whether it's better to make fire by rubbing sticks or banging rocks.
It is NOT I repeat NOT a plausible defense to say you were just following orders. In every brief on the subject, starting with one in the first weeks of basic training, US solider is told he has a duty to follow all legal orders. He is told in the same brief that it is also his duty to disobey and prevent others from obeying an illegal order.
The purpose of language is communication, If the idea is clear the grammar ain't important
We responded (against the objections of many who saw it as a totally "black hat" move) by flat-out conquering two entire nations (so far) which were friendly to Bin Ladin's cause.
Iraq wasn't friendly to Bin Laden's cause. Saddam was a secularist that Bin Laden wanted to see removed. Saddam cracked down hard on fundamentalists. They were the people he gassed.
Because of the attack on 9/11, our influence in the Middle East has expanded, rather than declined. It had the exact opposite effect of what was intended. It was a fatal miscalculation.
You're joking right? America/Bush has acted exactly how OBL wanted us to. America is hated by the entire Muslim world now. Half our army is bogged down in Iraq. Afghanistan is ruled by druglords. Iraq will be controlled by Islamic fundamentalists in a couple years. And Bin Laden himself still roams freely.
Explain the "fatal miscalculation".
Somebody call a Doctor!
This man is over-gasped!
I'm an ex-IDF soldier, and I'm telling you this: This story is COMPLETE CRAP. There is no basis to it. If there were, half of Israeli soldiers would be the ones frowned upon. D&D is extremely popular in Israel (at least it was 8 years ago), and nobody makes a secret out of it - coz there is no need.
run run for your lives Israelis! The 80's satanic panic has hit your shore somehow.
"And friends, somewhere in Washington enshrined in some little folder, is a study in black and white of my fingerprints. And the only reason I'm singing you this song now is cause you may know somebody in a similar situation, or you may be in a similar situation, and if your in a situation like that there's only one thing you can do and that's walk into the shrink where ever you are, just walk in say 'Shrink, You can get anything you want, at Alice's restaurant.' And walk out."
Couldn't resist following that up!
And there we have the difference between the Army and the Marines! ;)
He's right, though. It's one thing for the elite forces to recruit intelligent soldiers. It's another thing entirely when you look at the pool they recruit FROM. Orrin points it out better a couple lines above this, but in the military, almost all commanders want obedience over initiative and second-guessing. It IS the military, after all, the greatest bastion of assininity in the world.
Not actually "Air To Ground missiles", seing as they are ground-launched, but nice try. Oh, and how many innocent civilians have Israeli missiles killed? A lot more than 4, that's for sure.
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
If you've played D&D with enough people, you know that as a result of playing D&D with some people you're less likely to trust them with complex, difficult, important things.
If you've ever inadvertently mentioned that you play D&D to people who match the "living in parents' basement" archetype, you know that some of the most visible D&D players in the world are not exactly discreet people who should be trusted with sensitive information.
When I was growing up, the father of one of the neighborhood kids, who used to do (and maybe still does?) covert work and now mostly does high-level analysis, wargames, etc., for military intelligence would run a game for a bunch of us in the neighborhood. He created an incredibly detailed and self-consistent world, and adapted it on the fly to accomodate the most stupid and brilliantly clever things we tried to do within it to keep the experience engaging enough that we could play his campaign for months on end, with pre-adolescent to adolescent attention spans.
Maybe these traits improve the likelyhood that someone could get away with doing something deceptive long enough to really do damage to a security-sensitive operation, but what is the cost of excluding them? Role-players, especially DMs and such, tend to be extremely good at working with scenarios that are untestable, which describes many security-sensitive operations. When you're preparing for a raid into hostile territory, something the IDF does a lot of, you need lots of people who can put themselves in that situation during the planning phase, and who can then think on their feet when the plan goes out the window the moment people start shooting.
Sure, maybe these people have personalities less well suited for being gate guards at your secure facilities, but they have cultivated on their own time operational skills that would take years of training and experience to develop otherwise, and with the short careers typical in military service, that's not a viable option.
WARNING: there is a trojan on your
And I have heard several stories where soldiers from other militaries whipped the asses of US troops. Like when some Finnish troops went to Norway for some arctic-warfare training with American and Norwegian troops. As it turned out, only Finns and Norwegians did any actual combat-training. US troops just sat in their tents and tried to stay alive in the cold.
Or how US Troops routinely rolled down the hills with their Bradleys (which were too heavy and clumsy for the mountain-roads) in Bosnia, and Finnish soldiers had to save their sorry asses with their smaller wheeled APC's.
I have heard similar stories from German Bundeswehr, where the Germans were less than impressed by actions of US Army in joint exercises.
Of course, there are the numerous cases where US Troops have distinguished themselves by killing friendly soldiers... They seem to be particularly good at this. They have now started to train the troops in Iraq to differentiate between friendly forces from the insurgents. British troops have loaned them personnel, equipment and British flags so they can learn the difference between British soldier and an insurgent.
Yes, there are lots of fine soldiers in US Military. No, they are not some uber-soldiers that mop the floor with everyone else. Sure, overall the US Military is the strongest in the world (with all that money, it better be). But their individual soldiers are not really any better than soldiers in other militaries.
Lesbian Nazi Hookers Abducted by UFOs and Forced Into Weight Loss Programs - -all next week on Town Talk.
I wish my vote really did make a difference, but I'm afraid it doesn't
It did count. Your vote (I assume for Kerry) counted. You just didn't win. One side has to lose every election. That's how it works.
There are just too many religious freaks in this country
What a beacon of thinking and tolerance you practice...
For the record, I voted for Kerry. My vote counted the same as every other American's. We lost. That's life.
Have you ever seen Hamas apologize when they hit a baby? Never. An Israeli soldier who kills a baby palestinian can and will be jailed.
Min Maxing is pretty much choosing everything about your character to maximize the positives and minimize the negatives.
You start with stats then compare every class/race combo to see what gets you the best numbers for everything important in that combo without undully screwing anything else.
Choosing where to put your 18 and where to put your 9 so it make sense for the 1/2 orc ranger you've decided to play is just using some brains.
Also what you said about character is reminesent of one of the two big schools of thought on "HEROS" in rpgs and fiction.
Is a hero someone who lived up to his heroic potential, or a normal person forced into situations that gave him the oportunity to become a hero.
You can take the aproach that there's something about hero's that make them hero's or that the difference between your farmer and your hero is that the hero did something the farmer didn't or took an opourtunity the farmer could/would not.
Is hero born to greatness, or doese he sieze it? Doese he meet his fate or make it?
Not shure how to explain it clearly. Except through these sorts of questions and perspectives.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
Have you ever seen Hamas apologize when they hit a baby? Never. An Israeli soldier who kills a baby palestinian can and will be jailed.
Rubbish. There have been a few prosecutions for the more extreme examples, but this is not routine, as you imply. Or - just to take one example - can you tell me which Israeli soldier was jailed for killing 3 year old Burhan al-Himuni in December 2001?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not condoning terrorism, and Israel has the right to defend its citizens. But its methods are so incredibly blunt, the enormous number of noncombatants killed is just sickening. Israel has lost any claim to the moral high ground.
The real Captain Avatar is a fictional character, so I suppose he doesn't mind if I impersonate him.
And they all moved away from me on the Group W bench.
Best Slashdot Co
Quite right. Today's creative military solutions involve shooting civilians while rocking out to death metal music piped in from the nearest tank. It's a creative approach to reducing levels of combat related stress by making GI's think they're playing a shoot 'em up.
Genius.
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
or
3) Bin laden is playing alonger term game where he counted on a violent reaction that would prove to moderate muslims that yes, America really IS the great satan. He believes that eventually his brand of radical militant fundamentalism will grow in strength to the point that America is forced to withdraw from the middle east. After all, it worked in Vietnam.
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Jesus mentioned hell, but the word he used was the name of the ever smouldering rubbish tip outside the city walls. It's entirely possible to conclude that what he mean was that people found to be unrightious before the LORD are simply discarded and cease to be.
You can't win Darth. If you mod me down, I shall become more powerful than you could possibly imagine
Can someone explain to me why kangaroos aren't kosher? They're not mentioned one way or the other in Leviticus. Now even though the ancient Israelites hadn't heard of kangaroos, you'd think God would have (what with him being omniscient and all that) in which case it's odd that he didn't mention them. If you were cynical, you might conclude that it was all made up by some dude who'd caught a bit too much sun on the old bonce.
It's true I tell you, feller at work's next door neighbour read it in the paper.
Modern day orthodox Judaism is very hellenized.
Sad but true, orthodox Judaism is quite the wild tangent from the original faith in Yahweh.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
That was the plan all along. Jesus did not die at the hands of his own people in order to condemn them, rather precisely the opposite.
Well said. It's amazing yet sad so many Christians totally miss this crucial bit of their faith.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
Oh yes, naturally most of that bullcrap would get swept aside in real combat. Mostly what I'm getting at is that the Soviet training and doctrine, specifically that of the cold war era, almost without exception mandated the "smart head, dumb body" approach, as opposed to the US military's emphasis on "individual initiative". Even then it was indeed mostly a political maneuver intended to ensure that the military didn't "get any ideas" rather than a rational approach to conducting modern warfare.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Ah, someone to debate alignment with!
A chaotic neutral is someone who values individuality and personal freedoms (chaotic) and has no bias toward good or evil. Since their morals aren't strongly alinged to good or evil, they might commit acts that fall under either catagory in the name of self-interest. Any impulsive or selfish personality could fall under this category. They have no desire to spread woe or promote the greater good, simply to be allowed to do whatever they wish.
Now, someone who was mentally ill could certainly fit this patern, but there is a whole sub-topic of alingment and sanity. It could be argued that anything with a basically human mind that was chaotic evil would be homcidial and deranged. Many serial killers would certainly fit the category. However, I would say that the reason one acts out an alingment is moot in the discussion of what alingment a person is.
You mention the phrase, 'striving for neutrality'. That sounds like a out of the book description of neutrality, which I don't buy. Nobody goes around saying, 'Hmmm, the forces of good are getting to strong, let's throw in with evil today'. I mean, really, how does one 'strive for neutrality' in the spectrum of good and evil?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
I'm always happy to see other Christians on here supporting Israel. You may want to follow my journal.
I know the shot at him was just a joke, but I'd rather Jack Chick be locked in a closet. There's something even more frightening than him out there, people in power that are stupid enough to listen to him. Don't give him ideas.
He who reflects on another man`s want of breeding, shows he wants it as much himself --Julius Caesar, per Plutarch
True min/maxing is not just making smart choices about assigning stats. It means the final numbers are ALL that matter, you don't care if it's a dwarven fighter or a elf druid or whatever. You don't pick any skills that don't 100% support a maxed out char or pick anything to make your character fully formed (as in no roll playing elements).
The reality is everyone doese this to some small degree. It's obnoxious when it passes a certain threshold, that threshold varies from person to person. Think of it a line from totaly random (or totaly driven by concept/story) character to one who's creation is total driven by the final numbers. You should try to create a character with SOME versimilitude, some concept beyond really good fighter, or very powerfull mage.
But my tolerance for min/maxing or stat crunching is fairly high, as long as the player is trying to create a character that's fun to play and not just trying to 'win' it's cool.
THAC0 is To Hit Armor Class 0. Once apon a time (that phrase had to show up somewhere here:) lower armor classes were better, you started at 10 and anything that made it harder to hit you lowered this. Small shields were a -1 to ac and so on.
Now each class had different starting odds on hitting an ac of 0 (middle of the range, which went from -10 to +10) that got better with level advancement, which also varied from class to class. Fighter classes generaly got better each level or nearly every level whereas mages were something like every 4 or 5 levels. Next you had to add in all the various modifiers, such as magic and exceptional stat bonuses. Once all these were added to gether you got what you needed to roll to hit an AC of 0, thus your calculated THAC0. since the number you needed to hit varied 1:1 with the targets AC this number and a single addition/subtraction told you what you needed to hit any particular critter 99% of the time. Whereas if you stopped and added everything up each time (gee I'm 17 strength that's +3 and my sword is +1 and....) it'd slow the game down durring battles to a borring crawl. When THAC0 was introduced it bassically codified and simplified what most players were already doing, prefiguring anything they could before play to speed up mechanics so they could focus on the fun.
Mycroft
https://signup.leagueoflegends.com/?ref=4c3ed6600b6ea
In fact, it isn't just about cloven hooves, they must have cloven hooves and be ruminants. Fish must have scales and fins (therefore catfish and sharks are out) and birds have a specific list... Insects are specific too, but very few people know exactly whet the names refer to, plus most people don't want to eat them anyway...
Actually, pigs are not healthy, even today. The American Cancer Society has linked the meat of pork to certain cancel developments due to the way pigs digest food; the food becomes part of the pigs flesh faster than virtually all mammals.
Also, see this reply to my original post that describes some examples of why pigs would have been even worse to eat in biblical times. At least in modern day pigs are raised on farms and fed rather healthy food.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
That's not entirely true, either. Failing miserably while adhering strictly to established doctrine while a readily-identifiable but unorthodox solution existed is as unacceptable as getting too fast and loose with the rules. A lack of initiative will get you dumped on as hard as having too much.
Hrm... aside from the fact that he never said that, I consider myself "different" and "very smart." And the Marine Corps made an officer out of me. I've been in over eight years (combining NROTC and active duty) and I'm very happy. In fact, I've thrived and I've seen others like me thrive time and again.
So next time make sure you know what the hell you're talking about before you spout off. Thanks.
Lotsa me buddies in the good ol' US of A Army played D&D. Rather have them back me up than the drunks who hung out intil 2 am at the bars drinking green beer...... (;
Pigs will eat anything - which causes them to be used to consume human fecal matter in some societies without "modern" sanitation.
By creating a food cycle where humans and pigs consume from each other, it sets up the dynamics for diseases - worms being the most obvious.
In fairly recent times, scientists have figured out that influenza (flu) is a combination of human, duck, and pig DNA - because in Asia it is common for the three groups to live in close proximity and interact. The domesticated ducks carry the flu, and then spread it to migrating birds - then a year later, that new strain shows up around the world.
Final 2006 "Proof of Global Warming" US Hurricane Count -> 0
Wow, I had no idea. Thanks for that information, very valuable the next time I'm arguing for kosher laws. :-)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit
Why is slashdot linking to porn. Inocent minors might click that chick link.