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Grumpy Gamer Disappointed By New Zelda Footage
Ron "the Grumpy Gamer" Gilbert has up an opinion piece discussing his frustration with the new realistic footage of Zelda shown at this year's Game Developer's Conference. He makes some excellent points counter to most opinions I've seen up so far. From the article: "If you look at the trailer, it's filled with creatures, textures and buildings that could be seamlessly exchanged with any other 3D boy-mass game, which in my opinion, is the real failing of 3D games. This crazy quest to attain realism just serves to water everything down until it is all indistinguishable from anything else. An off-white paint that covers the walls of cube-like apartments in cookie-cutter neighborhoods."
God filled the world with creatures, textures and buildings of all color and shape. And he saw that is was good.
All I hear is one grumpy man bitching about graphics, graphics, and more graphics. I thought The Legend of Zelda was best known for innovating GAMEPLAY.
I for one am looking forward to Zelda getting the realistic treatment.
The last Cell shaded effort, although fun to play was kiddied up too much for me. I prefered the ocarina over the windwalker.
Bring it on I say.
Damn he is a grumpy gamer, get over it Ron.
First off, that was barely an article and nothing at all for the masses to be made aware of.
His complaints are more with the inherent nature of realistic games, but Zelda still isn't at that point. It's pretty clear that despite a more realistic look, almost everything in the game is stylized to a degree.
Some people complain just to get attention, the least he could have done is have a decent arguement.
So who exactly is this guy? Some Random blogger? Tried going to his about page and can't figure out what language its in...
Personally though I like the new look. If I post that on my blog can I get some Slashdot Linkage?
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
Am I the only person on this big ball of water, rock and vegetation crawling with meat incrusted skeletons we call god's green earth that thinks the latest Zelda is a complete and total sell out?
What the hell is up with the ultra-realistic graphics that make it look like every other 3D game on the market, completely lacking in any true style or sense of art direction. Zelda always seemed to Zig when everyone else was Zagging, thumbing its nose at the the latest trends, yet continuing to rack up huge sales, prestige and envy among developers.
Now, it seems to have hopped on the bandwagon heading straight to the bus stop called mediocrity.
Of course, this doesn't stop the throbbing teenage boy-masses from jumping up and down, proclaim it the most amazing thing they've seen since the last most amazing thing they saw.
If you look at the trailer, it's filled with creatures, textures and buildings that could be seamlessly exchanged with any other 3D boy-mass game, which in my opinion, is the real failing of 3D games. This crazy quest to attain realism just serves to water everything down until it is all indistinguishable from anything else. An off-white paint that covers the walls of cube-like apartments in cookie-cutter neighborhoods.
There is more to art direction than realistic textures and colored lights placed in strange places to show off a render engine. Maybe once we have achieved the nirvana of realism in games, we can start exploring something different, something more emotionally rewarding. But until then, I can't help but feel that any game not on the death march to realism won't get the coveted "best graphics I've ever seen" award and be relegated to the "this game sucks" stamp of hard-core gamer approval.
Zelda always stood out and up against the herd-think. No matter which McGame game out the spigot, you could always point to Zelda. No more.
Welcome to the herd.
Si Hoc Legere Scis Nimium Eruditionis Habes
That was what I had said upon viewing the most recent Zelda trailer. And I said pretty much the same thing after seeing the first one. I have no doubt that it will be an amazing game, and I have no doubt that I will very much enjoy it, and I have even less doubt that it will sell very well.
But I still feel like I've lost a very good friend. Zelda was never about giving the vocal fans what they wanted. It was about taking a journey through the very imaginative mind of Shigeru Miyamoto. To remember what it was like to be that child walking through the forest and finding a lake. To be the child who overcomes all perils and finds buried treasure and saves the princess. For me, Wind Waker captured that perfectly and completely.
The new Zelda just seems to be Nintendo's way of showing that it listens to its fans. But that isn't why they became successful in the first place. Nintendo got where they were by hiring designers with vivid imaginations and a natural sense of what was FUN. If Nintendo listened to its fans, Mario would be stealing cars and killing hookers. And I want no part of that.
The current trend in thinking that every video game should carry an M rating needs to stop. I have way more fun playing an E rated Zelda game than a cut and paste M rated FPS.
Headline should read: Grumpy Gamer Disappointed By New Zelda Footage, Is Only One.
Well to me it just looks like an updated version of the style in Ocarina of time ,
I mean seriously the graphics are just like they were with adult link (obviously with 7 years tech improvments).
I think the zelda games are some of the best made , and i dont think this new one will disapoint , the main problem here is people have gotten used to the ultra cutsie windwalker type zelda , Ocarina of time had some rather dark graphics in places.Funny to think that i was hearing a great hoohaa about the windwalkers graphics being too cute just a few years back and now were moaning about this being too adult , It looks great and its sure to be a grand game , so lets not judge till we have seen the final trailer(also i think this new trailer looks a bit like the tech demo for the gamecube which i belive was the origional windwalker graphics)
The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
...and if you try, everyone will think you're stupid. Then again, sometimes pleasing some people some of the time gets you in hot water too. In Nintendo's case, with the kind of insane, impactful legacy of _relevance_ that they've created for themselves, that's just inevitable.
Look, guys. Nintendo is held in such high regard in the industry that they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. This guy just happens to have a loud mouth and plenty of people around to listen, just like all the people who bitched about Wind Waker looking _not cookie-cutter enough_.
So yeah, this person is unimpressed. Marvelous, really - the most notable event of my young life. I gave a damn about what the naysayers were yapping about while I was enjoying Zelda II, I gave a damn about what the snobs said while I was enjoying Wind Waker, and I'll give a damn about this guy's opinion when I get the chance to evaluate Zelda 2K5 for myself.
And just a note to anybody with a long-term memory worth a damn....I seem to recall sprites from the 16-bit era being interchangeable across pretty much every game with the same perspective angle, too. As in, take any character sprite from any top-down grid-based RPG and stick it in another one, and almost nobody would be able to spot anything anomalous. How many ways does this guy want to see a forest rendered, anyway, to the degree that he WOULD be impressed? These are not artifacts of Zelda being dumbed down to mass appeal, or of 3D technology's introduction of blandness. This new Zelda, like all games worth talking about, is _ART_. Not all groundbreaking art is beautiful, and not all beautiful art breaks new ground.
I look forward to playing this game, because as much as I may have seen trees rendered in similar fashion before, or as much as I may have seen enemies move in almost the same way, damn it, this is a Zelda game from EAD. All signs point to good things, including (IMO) the two trailers released so far.
In other, equally interesting news, The Mad Poster hates taxes.
Oh, you dont know who he is? Well, nevermind, it's news!
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What did you expect from the Grumpy Gamer? A happy review? Sunshine?
-- $G
What's wrong with realism? Ultimately, what's wrong with every game made using exactly the same graphics engine? All it would mean would be that content would replace technology as the distinguishing factor between games. Nobody complains that live-action movies all look the same!
Indeed, where has the mind gone?
Just 20 years ago there were folks who spent hours engorging fantasy from the source(hint, not a CRT). After playing WoW for 3 weeks I decided to fire up another rogue-like ASCII game...because writing is such a fine art. It's almost as if the greatest part of the old starwars films had nothing to do with visuals at all, or even acting...it had to do with music and writing. The dialogue and screenplay and music were just so masterful and rythmic.
It's strange how things become cheapened with accessability. Maybe it's struggeling that adds to the realism of the experience...being spoonfed fantasy makes it feel so plastic and unreal. Don't get me wrong, I love the new graphics and eye-candy....but the effect of that stuff wears off very quickly. I suppose it's like the love the Linux zealots have for their operating system, it takes a kind of genius to really dig-in and 'know' it. It's not something that can be sold.
The government has a defect: it's potentially democratic. Corporations have no defect: they're pure tyrannies. -Chomsky
I don't care much whether the graphics are "realistic". What worries me about this trailer is that the graphics look crappy. The designers seem to be trying quite hard to create a "beautiful" Hyrule, but the result is artificial. The characters look boring (though a few of the monsters are interesting). The animation is just awful. And I see nothing interesting gameplay-wise.
For reference, I thought A Link to the Past and Ocarina of Time were awesome. And I loved Wind Waker's graphical style but hated hated hated the gameplay.
It's about time Nintendo comes up with some interesting new gameplay elements. Fludd (in Super Mario Sunshine) was brilliant, the stupid boat and the boring sea in Wind Waker were not.
We played Monkey Island upto version 3, which was simple, clear and immersive. Sometimes 2D is so much expressive than 3D, especially the faces of the characters. Unless we're talking movie-class 3D, its unrealistic, shiny, roundish and bland, compared to 2D drawing and paintwork. Most 2D art is made either on paper and scanned, or 2d tracking devices for games...
They screwed up Monkey Island, and other adventure games similarly. How about sonic the hedgehog? The only 2d-3d success story I can think of is Duke Nukem, which itself has stalled for different reasons.
"Give orange me give eat orange me eat orange give me eat orange give me you." -Nim Chimpsky
Silly, cutsie, cell-shaded, etc. graphics are not the only way to give a game unique visual appeal. If this guy thinks all games are starting to look the same, he's really not looking, IMO.
Sticking feathers up your butt does not make you a chicken - Tyler Durden
After reading the Grumpy Gamers sensible and well reasoned complaints, Nintendo have taken his comments on board, returning the Zelda franchise to a stylish and retro look. You can see a screen capture from their recently rereleased trailer here.
Let's wait for the game, eh?
Meine Schwester ist sehr, sehr reizvoll - Nietzsche
"Grumpy Gamer Disapopinted by New Zelda Footage, Is One of At Least Two."
I can only speak for myself, but I *liked* Wind Waker's graphics.
When Nintendo showed WindWaker for the first time, there were idiots who were saying "hey, it's not realistic, ergo, it sucks!".
Now, when Nintendo shows a realistic zelda, idiots complain that "it's too realistic!".
Windwaker was great, by the way. It had three problems:
-It was too easy.
-It was too short.
-It had too many maps search in the main quest.
Other than that, it was a great and beautiful game.
I don't see how the characters/objects in Zelda can be considered realistic. They certainly don't look like anything I've seen in my life. I suppose what he means is that a more typical approach was taken to use a more natural color pallete for textures as well as a visual style that is higher in detail than the bright, water-colored, cell shaded Zelda that is Windwaker. Personally, I am looking forward to the new (or old depending on how you view things) visuals in the next Zelda.
SIGFAULT
I think the authors main concern is that innovations in 3D gaming are suffering the same problems as modern suburban 'planning'. Cookie cutter syndrome, sticking with what has worked before, and do it on a mass scale. A lot of suburbanites have looked towards video games as a means of breaking away from familiarity (not to be confused with escaping reality). They grew up in a place where everything was pretty much the same as the next place and video games offered something stimulating. Unfortunately, video game designers are following suit with super contractors and homogenizing with what has worked for them in the past rather than braving new frontiers.
The most common complaints from teenagers in suburban areas is "boredom". They feel far removed from society and lack places to gather and things to interest them because of suburban planning. The same is being seen in video game design. Its causing gamers the same disjointed feeling. We're screaming, "We're bored, take us somewhere else!"
If this follows the model, pretty soon gamers will be committing suicide at an alarming rate and gaming while intoxicated to impress other gamers...
...wait a second...
peace,
-Grokent
Perhaps he's venting his frustration that the only thing left for Nintendo to do is put flashy graphics on the same games they been releasing for 20 years? Maybe it's time to give them a rest?
The last realistic effort, although fun to play, wasn't really fun to watch. Ocarina of Time and Majora's Mask represent a big step back in the Zelda graphics. Wind Waker is great, it's a 3D Link to the Past!
Link to the Past is my favourite Zelda game, as I think it represents a good balance. All the GBA and GBC (even the original GB Zelda verison) sport the graphics design of LTTP. Only the N64 ones are bad. Unspurisingly, despite me owning several copies (N64 carts + the GC bonus disc versions), they're the only Zelda games I haven't beaten.
I bet you like FF7 more than FF6, too, just because it was 3D.
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He can just do what I did (do) ever since Ocarina came out. NOT PLAY. Personally I only liked the original Zelda and A Link to the Past. That was the style of Zelda I really liked. Four Swords was "ok". So instead of trying to jump on the "I hate fancy graphics" bandwagon... why doesn't he just.. umm I dunno.. STFU and play games he likes.
"why don't you just slip into something more comfortable...like a coma!"
This could also read: "it's filled with sprites of creatures and buildings that could be seamlessly exchanged with any other 2D boy-mass game", and you can apply the same complaint to 2D games in general.
Why does this guy get a lot of posts on Slashdot when all he does is whine about stupid things?
Speculation is always fun! However, I always prefer to actually play the game first before making silly generalizations and assumptions. Maybe I'm just weird like that.
shame on us / for all we have done / and all we ever were / just zeroes and ones
The HD trailer is available here.
Looks like he's not the only one wishing for cell shaded Zelda. He should play this instead.
When Windwaker came out, people griped endlessly because it wasn't photorealistic. Whether it was as a reaction to the reception of Windwaker or not, we will soon have a more realistic-style Zelda. And everyone is still bitching. This particular fellow has no comments about Windwaker, but plenty of other folks bitched. So it's only fitting someone does now.
Though I agree with him for the most part- I really am not interested in attempts at photorealistic games, not until they start to look really nice. So far, I've not seen anything anywhere near this level. Something that looks like the Final Fantasty movie, but maybe a smidge better.
Am I the only one who sees this as the succesor to Ocarina? The graphic style is very similar, although much improved. Many of the same characters, etc. If anything, this seems to be the same Link as lived in the Ocarina time, though that's yet to be seen for sure. But what was so disturbing about the "photorealistic" Ocarina of Time?
No matter what, whatever new Zelda game Nintendo puts out won't be just like the original NES game. Nor will it be like just like Ocarina of Time or a Link to the Past. A lot of folks seem to have a hard time coming to grips with that.
Working toward a usable PDA environment in the spirit of Newton OS: Dynapad
Honestly gameplay is number one on my list, and if people wont play a game simply cause they think it looks "kiddie" then they are idiots. YOu think we worried about graphics this much with pacman? how about the original arcade starwars. Graphics really are overrated and really have destroyed gameplay in my opinion because people want its exceleent looking interesting to play and NOW and when your working with that formula something has to give.
"Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."
I would love to hear more about how not using cel-shading or some derivative rendering style automatically makes a game photo-realistic and redundant. If you watch the trailer, it is blatantly obvious that Nintendo kept MANY things from Wind Waker - the stylized enemy defeat explosions, the crisp stylish enemy design (especially the jumping statues), and more. Just because it's not a flat shaded 'toon game, it doesn't mean that it's Zelda: Source.
So first everyone complains that Wind Waker looks too cartoonish, and then they complain that this new one is too realistic.
What if Nintendo wants this game to look as realistic as possible? Is that so wrong? They felt like trying out cel-shading (to great success), and now theyr'e going for a different graphical style, namely realism. What's wrong with that? I'm just worried that gameplay is going to be the same except you can fight on a horse this time.
Oh yeah, and by the way, Grumpy Gamer, does the term "alpha stage of development" mean anything to you?
"When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
"The only ones that have been met with shock or disapproval are Zelda II and Wind Waker."
It is important to note that Zelda II wasn't developed by Miyamoto but by another team entirely. He just gave them a general idea and let them run with it. Interestingly, he considers Link to the Past as the real sequal to the first.
As for Wind Waker, it boggles my mind the backlash that games receives. I loved it (not as much as OoT, but still a lot). In fact, you remove the cel shading, OoT and TWW are extremely similar, down to how the attack system works and one uses tools such as the hook shot. To be honest, I loved that fact that I was playing a live cartoon. I can't think of any other game that can make that claim!
Bryan R.
The price of freedom is eternal vigilance, or $12.50 as seen on eBay.....
complaining about how much I hated the Cel shaded graphics of the previous Zelda. Never did even buy that one.
To each his own, I guess.
Other people will disagree. They will prefer to see games that are more abstract and based on artistic styles like anime. That's fine. No one's opinion is more valid than anyone else's. I do, however, reserve the right to anticipate the new Zelda game because its graphics are more in line with what I enjoy, and I reserve the right to be disappointed with the graphics of Wind Waker because they aren't in line with what I want to see. I also respect that others may prefer the artistic style of WW to a realistic one, and it's certainly completely within their rights to have their own vision of what Zelda should look like.
None of that, of course, has any bearing on the game that actually gets made. ;) But it might have some bearing on who buys it...
I made a check next "realistic graphics" on my list that I've seen. They is not a sign of quality, they were just not achievable for a long time. Now if a game requires them they are possible. Period.
I really liked Wind Waker, because it looked different from everything else, and because it is a really good game. Just sailing around on the ocean, with seagulls joining me, that was something I haven't seen before. But I understand why people of a certain age are afraid of it. In that age you separate things into "gay" and "not gay", and you personally want to be sorted into "not gay". It is an age where you are not sure about your own feelings, but don't want to be dissed by your friends.
It is slightly disappointing that Nintendo went the complete other way for the new Zelda, buy going for a more (cough) "mature" (cough) look, and in turn made it look like a lot of other fantasy games. But the gameplay elements that were demonstrated made up for it: The battle scenes on horseback, with sword and bow look really cool. I don't think I will be disappointed with it as a game.
Very few companies manage to find a balance between "family friendly", similar to what some movie studios manage with movies (Pixar's Incredibles is a good example).
A good example for a game that manages it in my opinion is "Final Fantasy Tactics Advance". I wouldn't be afraid of a kid playing it, the characters are kids without looking too cute so they are compatible with a large age range.
I don't know why but it was distracting to me in WW. I hope they do some overhaulin' to the voices and such.
No sig for you!!
Wait... So first "you guys" complain that Nintendo doesn't listen enough and needs to "get with the times", and now you're saying Nintendo should ignore what their buyers want? That's stupid in so many ways (financial just being one).
I'd be willing to bet that, before you actually played WW you were concerned if not angry about the design change from it's predacessor.
So before you jump the gun and trash this game for looking too much like Ocarina Of Time (the best selling Zelda game ever I believe), maybe you should wait until the controller is in your hand. That's where Zelda games have always shown. Superb gameplay and controls. Not necessarily design.
Go here for teh [sic] funny.
Look at ICO for proof of that.
Even if Nintendo doesn't manage to give this new Zelda a distinctive art style, though (which I seriously doubt), it'll still look much better than that cel-shaded crap that they foisted on us last time.
Rob
Mod me however you want for this one, for I was once a Nintendo fan boy too.
But here's a thought. What if Nintendo went the way of Atari and Sega and decided to just stick to making high-quality games, and gave up the console business?
Their Game Cube ain't doin' so hot. I don't think the DS will do very well with the PSP hot on its tails. And with the next-gen PS and XB coming out very soon, I don't see Big-N's future getting any brighter.
BUT... what Nintendo has always done VERY well is make excellent games. Metroid, Zelda, Mario, etc. If you look back at the most successful of Nintendo games, it's always been the ones that were produced by Nintendo -- not the ones that 3rd Parties developed for the system.
Sega gave up consoles to make Sonic games. Atari did the same. Maybe Nintendo should stick to what it does best and bow down to the two console leaders.
-David
I never had any complaints about previous Zelda games' graphics. I wasn't sure I would like the Windwakers graphics until after I tested out the game - and I was blown away; until I bought it, that is. I played through and beat the game, and it was pathetically easy. I went through entire dungeons without so much losing a single piece of a heart - even beating the bosses for the first time. And then what happened with the whole Triforce fork thing? It was horribly lame. I don't think that we need to worry about graphics in this upcoming Zelda game - they've always fit in good so for. What we need to worry about is whether or not they can make us want to keep playing it. And the way we accomplish this is by leaving out incredibly lame quests like the Triforce forks and giving it a reasonably difficulty level - I began to wonder if the game had been tested at all! If they can grasp my interest in this upcoming game, then we have no need to fear the graphics...
I've read all the comments and nowhere does anyone point out the amazing thing Nintendo has done. The Zelda franchise has been slowly separating into a "young Link" and "teen/adult Link" set of subfranchises for years. It was absolute genius for Miyamoto to finalize the split by making each subfranchise bear its own presentation. Just look at the boxart for Four Swords or Minish Cap: the games feature young Link, and hence both have the new Windwaker-styled Link. This new Zelda game is the next logical step by saying "hey, this game features an older Link and a more mature story, so here's a different 3D style to show it off". The naysayers are missing the obvious marketing strategy at work here. Look for this Zelda to be sold to the teen and older audiences, as well as all those folks who loved the OOT style.
No penguins were harmed in the making of this post.
It is still in development. They made these trailers to please the fans who would be impressed by graphics. The art and the gameplay will come later - they're much harder to convey in a 30-second trailer made on a deadline.
...but is it art?
Majora's Mask, foo'!
I don't mind realism, it's kind of neat to see them try out different styles.
My gripe however is the lack of consistancy. I don't think they follow up properly on the designs they establish. This new game just doesn't look 'Zelda' too me. The only way I could tell was because of Link's outfit.
What happened to Link's nose btw? It used to be TWO PIXELS LONG. Now he's just a regular manga 'pretty boy'.
Samus used to have brown hair (no varia), but they just had to make her into a blond bimbo to suit the american market (Metroid was not as popular in Japan).
Both the original Zelda and Metroid (NES) were really unlinear and none of that kind of gameplay is left either. It's hardly in any game nowdays.
The Chair Corp. comic(*00-12)
One of the more addicting games I have played on the GC was Animal Crossing. My friends and I were talking about how cool it would be to have a Zelda game based on the Animal Crossing engine.
I pictured it like a Link to the Past, but with the new engine (which kinda reminded me of a 2.5D LTTP anyway with the land setup and stuff). My friends thought it would be a good game. The engine had the basics for a decent Zelda game; a good inventory system, character interaction with NPCs. The only thing needed would be a combat system incorporating magic and it'd be set.
I'd wait in line for days to buy it, but then again I loved playing a LTTP.
I/O, I/O, its off to disk I go, with a read and a write, and a bit and a byte, I/O, I/O, I/O, I/O
Since 1986 when the original LOZ broke the ground with its gameplay style and involving storyline its become the basis for everyone other one in the series as well as a whole heap of other titles (Final Fantasy etc) it wouldn't matter how the graphics looked after the games released because the storyline and gameplay are the key things. And anyway the only people that really bitched afetr Wind Waker was realesed were the morons who only wanted hyper-realism in the graphics and those that don't like the idea of fighting with swords and shields and would prefer guns beacuse the have absolutly no idea of what strategy and defense is.
I figured out whats wrong with the world , its other people -Dilbert