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Microsoft Accepts Most EU Demands, But Not Over Source

JoeGi writes "Microsoft sent a letter to EU regulators Monday accepting 20 out of the Commission's 26 demands. According to BetaNews, 'The remaining stumbling block to full compliance is source code licensing' as Microsoft is refusing access to open source projects. Microsoft officials told BetaNews they are trying 'to find a way that companies can implement these technologies in code that would get distributed with open source products, but the source code wouldn't be published itself.'"

109 of 587 comments (clear)

  1. The article says "accepts"... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article says "accepts", as if they have a choice? This is the law, is it not?

    1. Re:The article says "accepts"... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The other option is for Microsoft to just stop selling and supporting software in the EU. I honestly believe the EU would recant if MS pulled something like this.

      I take it you failed both math and law classes in high school?

      No one walks away from 25 billion in profit a year to avoid being fined 1.4 billion. No one with any brains creates a giant new market for their competition. No one in their right mind refuses to comply with the people who direct the army and police.

      If Ballmer tried this he'd be fired by the end of the day. If the board of directors all went insane and did not fire him the EU would direct MS Europe to split from their parent company and comply with the orders. If they still refused they'd toss the European director in a prison and tell the next in command to comply.

      MS may have some pull but get real.

    2. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Kiryat+Malachi · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is, MS doesn't view it as 25 billion in profit. They genuinely think that by opening up their source, they make *all* of their profit, worldwide, vulnerable. If they think it'll lose them the US and Japan to stay in Europe, they will *absolutely* walk away from the EU.

      --

      ---
      Mod me down, you fucking twits. Go ahead. I dare you.
      (I read with sigs off.)
    3. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 4, Interesting
      The other option is for Microsoft to just stop selling and supporting software in the EU. I honestly believe the EU would recant if MS pulled something like this.

      ...or not...could Microsoft really afford to have the EU (which has a population greater than the US) being forced to use a different OS? Sure it would be an expensive and difficult change which nobody wants to force but the results would be catastrophic to MS. If, for example, every company in the EU was forced to use Linux (or OSX) it would become extremely serious competition to Windows outside the EU.

    4. Re:The article says "accepts"... by cortana · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They'd just lobby to get the politicians who are making trouble for them replaced with more... agreeable alternatives.

    5. Re:The article says "accepts"... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think you've thought this through. If MS Europe split from their parent company, they wouldn't have a product. It's only the fact that Microsoft is their parent company that gives them the legal right to produce copies of Microsoft software for sale.

      You do realize who writes and enforces those laws right? The governments represented by the EU. The EU courts could easily declare the copyrights and patents of MS to be the property of MS Europe within the EU. For that matter they could just declare them null and void and let anyone who wanted to make copies and sell them. That, however, is very unlikely. The aforementioned scenario would be much more stable.

    6. Re:The article says "accepts"... by shawb · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I honestly believe they'd pull out before opening their source. Yes, they will try evey other option they have first. Yes, one of those options is bound to work and allow a mutually agreeable solution. But the threat of pulling out may pull some of the bite out of the EU's ferocity. How long do you think the careers of a politician who "forced" MS out would be with their constituency being companies, government agencies and private individuals being forced to switch to an alternative? I guess it depends on how deeply imbedded the EU is with MS software, but in the US with Windows being on the desktop of just about every person in power... MS has a lot of leeway. Switching over would be a large expense for some organizations, especially ones with custom software and documents in proprietary formats.

      Yes, it would prove that they are a monopoly. It would also prove that there isn't anything anyone can do about it.

      --
      I'll never make that mistake again, reading the experts' opinions. - Feynman
    7. Re:The article says "accepts"... by amliebsch · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Madness. It would be the end of the Bern Convention and the start of a cataclysmic trade war - maybe worse. Sheer madness. I don't doubt they would do it though, in their spite, their greed, and their envy.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    8. Re:The article says "accepts"... by cheesybagel · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Bollocks. It is a syphon of money from the EU to whoever is a Microsoft stockholder or whoever gets the profits in the end. The taxes only mean the EU bleeds less money and curb demand by a bit. That said, it is Microsoft's product and given international law their have the right to demand compensation for it.

      But Microsoft still does not seem to have learned their lesson and continues to defy the will of a court. The next course of action by the EU is probably to step up fines for non-compliance, going to seisure of corporate assets of Microsoft in Europe if they refuse to pay the fines. If that is not enough any Microsoft officers caught in Europe will be detained. You get the idea.

    9. Re:The article says "accepts"... by SA+Stevens · · Score: 5, Interesting

      IBM walked away from the India market this way in the 1960's. It was a delicious moment for those of us who despise government bureaucrats bearing demands.

    10. Re:The article says "accepts"... by tftp · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I recall hearing that MS has enough cash reserves to go another seven years without making another dime.

      That might be so, but the stock price will fall right through the floor after the very first quarter with such "results". The management will be all fired next morning after that.

    11. Re:The article says "accepts"... by erlenic · · Score: 2, Insightful
      In civilised countries you can't just goosestep over people.

      Hasn't stopped certain EU contries before.

      Goodbye karma!

    12. Re:The article says "accepts"... by grahamsz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      To be fair the indian computer market in the 1960s was considerably less valuable than the european market now.

    13. Re:The article says "accepts"... by stratjakt · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Microsoft has accepted 20 out of the EU's 26 demands and says that it will work as quickly as possible to settle the remaining six.

      It's in the first paragraph of the article.

      Why don't you and all the other asshats shut the fuck up for once, and read about the great outrages you're always spewing off about?

      They want more discussion about it. That's all.

      It's like someone sentenced to community service wanting a discussion with their probation officer as to what counts and what doesnt.

      --
      I don't need no instructions to know how to rock!!!!
    14. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Klaruz · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Hmmm.. I think if microsoft decided it was a good idea to castrate Europe's economy the EU would find a way to take the software needed to function through some sort of eminent domain. There's no way one company would be allowed to shut down a continent's IT systems. Not to mention pulling out of Europe would be a signal to the other economies of the world of what can happen if they don't play ball with the bully. You can bet the desire to switch to something else would increase big time. The bigger they are, the harder they fall, and I bet Microsoft would crumble faster than anybody on this website could have ever dreamed if they decide to pull out of Europe.

      So nope, ain't gonna happen. They'll play along, they may play dirty, but they have no choice but to stay in the game.

    15. Re:The article says "accepts"... by darnok · · Score: 4, Insightful

      > How long do you think the careers of a politician
      > who "forced" MS out would be with their
      > constituency being companies, government agencies
      > and private individuals being forced to switch to
      > an alternative?

      I realise we're talking about a highly unlikely set of events here.

      However, I don't see that it's necessarily such a huge issue. The EU isn't the US; MS isn't an EU company. Money spent on MS products leaves the EU and heads to the US.

      If MS was banned, you can be dead sure any number of EU-based alternative companies would fall over themselves to fill the space. Sure, 100% file compatibility may not be achieved, but the negative of that would be overwhelmingly addressed by the fact that some/most/all of the money spent on software would remain in the EU.

      Any politician who "forced" MS out might well be applauded by EU individuals, governments and companies on this basis.

    16. Re:The article says "accepts"... by cgenman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It's their source, they wrote it, they paid for it, they developed it, they should not have to share it with anyone they don't want to.

      It's my gun. I bought it. I cleaned it. I blew someone's head off with it. I shouldn't be forced to give it to the police.

      Face it, Microsoft has broken the law repeatedly. They've used their position to crush competition on multiple occasions in multiple ways. They've outright stolen competitor's ideas and code, they've used their OS to cause errors in competing software, they've obscured their file format so much that each new version of Word must include a miniature version of the previous Word file reader in order to read it. They've used their position as a monopoly seller to try and corrupt Java, to drive Netscape into the ground. They've fed bad web pages intentionally to competing browsers. There is a ton more out there if you want to go digging, I've only scratched the surface.

      They made a tool. They abused a tool badly. Reparations were attempted with the company on specific issues. If Microsoft enters an area where they're actively in contempt of court, they can and should have that tool taken away. It would happen to any other company or individual trying to pull the same stunts. If I owned a resturant and a meat factory, and used my meat factory to sneak maggots into the food of my resturant competitors, and then I snubbed my nose at the court and refused their judgement, I'd lose my business. Plain and simple. Why would this be any different?

      Personally I think that opening Windows (and forcing it to stay open) without removing their copyright would be far more than enough to allow competitors to create compatible alternatives, giving them a fair footing in an open market.

      Oh, and add to that list they've not only falsified court documents, they've falsified evidence they then showed to an open court.

    17. Re:The article says "accepts"... by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not to mention that the EU could instatute some special legislation that would allow them to take the existing products and improve them without the consent or source code from microsoft. This woud absicaly let certain companies get around pattens and copyrights like canada did with some drugs durring the anthrax scare.

      It would beinteresting to see somethign like this happen. It would probably entail a team of CS professors deconstructing it and attempting to match the source code well enough to suite the security of the contenent. Plus people are forgeting that microsoft has shown some/most european nations the source code already in an attemp to convince them of no trojans if they use thier products. I would also bet that the EU would release it openly (maybe not opensource) so tha t all companies needing access could make changes as needed.

    18. Re:The article says "accepts"... by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think globalization would be brought about here. I actualy don't think it is a good idea either. The US did nothing when canada (and other countries?) started pirating drugs durring the anthrax scare. I believe they use some loophole in a trade agreement that is commonly found for emergency situations. Outside some whiners on the MS payroll, Most politicions would look the other way. An embargo would really take the US econemy too so leaders would want to shy away from that.

    19. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Queer+Boy · · Score: 2, Insightful
      IBM walked away from the India market this way in the 1960's

      Yes but India in the 60's, where there was no such thing as a personal computer and maybe an office had ONE computer, compared to today where everyone has at least one computer at home and every office has more computers than employees.

      The EU is not like the US, this is a group of COUNTRIES not a group of states. There is going to be an interesting outcome from this to be sure and I doubt it will favour Microsoft.

      Europe doesn't have only one choice when it comes to computing but Microsoft only has one choice when it comes to Europe.

      --
      Not since Marie-Antoinette played milkmaid has looking simple and honest been so fake and complicated.
    20. Re:The article says "accepts"... by amliebsch · · Score: 2, Insightful
      allow competitors to create compatible alternatives, giving them a fair footing in an open market.

      In other words, something their competitiors failed to earn on merit. Don't patronize me. MS may have an almost universally dominant position on the desktop, but there is nothing - NOTHING - stopping superior alternatives from being adopted, if they are sufficiently better.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
    21. Re:The article says "accepts"... by nickco3 · · Score: 4, Informative

      The only real stickler is the amount of actual collaboration that'd have to go into making sure all of the EU went along with this plan

      That part wouldn't be a problem. Trade and Competition policy are EC competencies. IOW, the Commission has already been given the authority to act and doesn't need permission from the member states.

      --
      -- Nick "Hallo this is Beel Gates, und I pronounce weendows as ... WEENdows"
    22. Re:The article says "accepts"... by dr.newton · · Score: 4, Insightful
      It's their source, they wrote it, they paid for it, they developed it, they should not have to share it with anyone they don't want to.

      They don't have to. They can decide not to sell their software in the EU.

      Governments create through laws economic environments that they think will make them (and their population) successful. Different governments strike the balance between good for the people and good for the rich at different points - too good for the people and their corporations can't compete. Too good for the corporations and standards of living drop as wealth accumulates in the hands of a few elite.

      The US is well known the world over for leaning heavily toward the rich, and relying on their corporations to go forth and extract wealth from other nations and bring it home. It has done well for them from an economic perspective so far. You can't, however, blame a government for either striking the balance more in favour of their people than the US (given that just about every other government in the world does also) or for attempting to protect themselves from the abnormally-empowered corporations of the US.

      Do the people of the EU need MS software? Will it really benefit them? Well, the government of the EU has decided that it will - as long as MS changes the terms it's attempting to force Europe's people to agree to before using it.

      The EU is doing what's best for its people. That is what it is supposed to do. If it did otherwise, why, it would risk being a farce.

      The fact that it is not doing what's best for you does not warrant such an attack.

      --
      Just another proletarian malcontent.
    23. Re:The article says "accepts"... by nmb3000 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's my gun. I bought it. I cleaned it. I blew someone's head off with it. I shouldn't be forced to give it to the police.

      I can see where you're going with this, but there is a difference. If you continue the story, the police don't go and give your gun to somebody else, even another police officer. It will be locked away and perhaps destroyed. In the same way I don't think MS source should be given away to others even if their intentions are to do good with it.

      Don't get me wrong, I'm no Microsoft fanboi. I'm just trying to look at this logically. If the EU wants to make requirements about the content of Microsoft software sold within their jurisdiction that's fine. If they want to levy fines against Microsoft, they have that right. In some ways I'm glad that they are doing what the US government hand-waved at. However, I think that a company should be allowed to protect their software and prevent others from using it to their own benefit. It's a hard thing, knowing where to draw the line, but just straight out giving away their code is wrong.

      Microsoft certainly hasn't been ideal in their business practices, but there has got to be better ways to handle them than pulling rules out of the air like 'get rid of WMP' and 'hand over your source code'. What do these "solutions" really accomplish?

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    24. Re:The article says "accepts"... by FidelCatsro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This is not just the will of gouvernment burocrats , this is also the will of the people that they represent . MS has continued to abuse our laws and are now acting like a 3 year old and stomping around trying to not comply .

      1:) MS could pull out of europe , but if they did EU companys who decide to use MS products would have support from the now independent MSEU and would be paying them for the software

      2:) MS could not afford to pull out of europe as giving this market to the competitors would force anyone who wants to do bussiness with the EU to use an open standard thus hurting MS in not just the European market

      3:) MS has no option but to comply , They have had the right to apeal which has done no good for them . Companys do not have the rights of citizens in the EU ,they are treated as entitys . The EU can forcibly enforce the order if needed , companys can not be allowed to walk all over the law and bribe their way out . ;) i do like to see people sticking it to the gouvernment , but i love to abusive companys get it stuck to them by the gouvernment and the people

      --
      The only things certain in war are Propaganda and Death. You can never be sure which is which though
    25. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Tim+C · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Not to insult *your* intelligence, but modern Windows OSes *do* work. I work for a web development/hosting division within a large multinational, and almost *all* of our problems relate to networking and third party software issues; it's very rare indeed that we have a machine go down because of an OS problem, and that's true for the Linux, Solaris and Windows machines.

    26. Re:The article says "accepts"... by cgenman · · Score: 5, Insightful

      there is nothing - NOTHING - stopping superior alternatives from being adopted, if they are sufficiently better.

      That's the key if they are sufficiently better. Microsoft has ensured through anticompetitive tactics that that threshold is far, far higher than any benefit. Find that BeOS is significantly better a desktop than Windows? (It was, BTW) Well, not only will you not be able to read any of the Word documents they've worked so hard to obfuscate, but you won't be able to read any of the websites whose standards they've co-opted, or run any of the applications whose API's have been intentionally hidden. You won't be able to buy this from a vendor who has one of Microsoft's patently illegal forced exclusivity contracts. And of course you may get sued from a pretty explicitly Microsoft-funded umbrella corporation who claims rights over your OS. Because Microsoft forbade, again illegally, non-Microsoft software to be placed on the desktop after sale, the compatible competitors were forced off, so you can kiss a lot of the open standards goodbye.

      A real open market with competition would have a reasonable threshold above which people would switch to a better system. There is no indication this is how the markets around Windows or Microsoft Word or Exchange Server are functioning, and there is plenty of evidence as to why this is the case.

      there is nothing - NOTHING - stopping superior alternatives from being adopted, if they are sufficiently better.

      Dr Dos was superior to DOS in every way. It was significantly cheaper, faster, more stable, and 100% compatible with MS Dos. Because of this Microsoft re-wrote Windows 3.1 to randomly crash if it was run on top of DrDos. They then promoted "awareness" that DrDos was unstable and would crash Windows 3.1. That's not competing on features, that's using something you sell in one area to irrecoverably damage a competitor's product in an underhanded fashion. They were, BTW, convicted of this.

      there is nothing - NOTHING - stopping superior alternatives from being adopted, if they are sufficiently better.

      OS2Warp ran Windows applications better than Windows 3.1 did. It multithreaded and multitasked, and was pretty stable... an impressive feat for a Dos-based system. What did Microsoft do? They charged all of their system manufacturers based on how many systems they sold, not how many systems with Windows they sold. In other words, if you were a mixed house and wanted to sell OS2 Warp-based systems, each system you sold with OS2 Warp would cost you one OS2 Warp license you used and one Windows license you didn't and could never use. Thus, Microsoft used their position very directly to prevent competitors from getting on shelves, in a fashion completely illegal. They were, BTW, convicted of this.

      there is nothing - NOTHING - stopping superior alternatives from being adopted, if they are sufficiently better.

      You can't engage in illegal anticompetitive behaviors and still represent something as an even playing field. Period. I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing to you, but it's a pretty easy concept. If there was a way I could explain it that was complicated and difficult I would.

      Not all Monopolies are evil or behave in an anticompetitive fashion. While Intel's hands aren't squeaky clean, it did decide to largely compete based upon power and marketing when rivals appeared. Google has a near-monopoly on search activities, and it hasn't abused that position. I can only think of one example of outright sabotage of interoperability with a competitor's parts from Shimano. But with Microsoft the list of abuses is very, very long. They even did a lot of anticompetitive stuff that failed, like bundling Messenger into every copy of Windows, refusing to allow it to be uninstalled, and if it found that you did uninstall it, the bloody OS would reinstall it. Or their attempts to corrupt Java (which, BTW, they were convicted of). Or their attempts to patent-en

    27. Re:The article says "accepts"... by KiloByte · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The already-installed base of Windows OSes wouldn't stop working overnight. Of course, they can help a virus writer create a new huge worm overnight to force people to upgrade-or-die, but, MS is required to provide support for the copies already sold -- even if they decide to go into an all-out war against the EU law, they can't abandon multinational companies.

      Too bad, having Microsoft being pushed out is as likely as a cold day in hell. And the devils get paid to keep the heating on.

      --
      The creatures outside looked from Alt-Right to Antifa; but already it was impossible to say which was which.
    28. Re:The article says "accepts"... by IchBinEinPenguin · · Score: 3, Informative

      I honestly believe they'd pull out before opening their source

      I agree, but no one is asking them to open their source, only to allow open-source projects to use their API's fairly.

    29. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Pieroxy · · Score: 3, Funny

      Because of this Microsoft re-wrote Windows 3.1 to randomly crash if it was run on top of DrDos
      Dude, that was the standard behavior, even with MS-DOS !

    30. Re:The article says "accepts"... by GWTPict · · Score: 4, Funny

      Keyboards? Just hide the mice.

    31. Re:The article says "accepts"... by cgenman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Ah. Yes. I hadn't intended for the entire OS's rights to be transferred to any one person or group of people. I had meant that the source code would be open and transparent, allowing people to more easily figure out what it was doing and implement compatibility with it, either on top of it or to replace it. The "gun" in this example was the secrecy around MS's source code. Ironically, a better description would probably have been "shared source."

      That's really the crux of how Microsoft goes from being a major software vendor in a healthy field to being a monopoly: incompatibility. Facilitating compatibility would re-open the marketplace, albeit with a lot of hard work and elbow grease on the part of competitors.

      And yes, pulling rules out of your bum isn't the best way to rule under law. Multibillion dollar penalties would probably work to some degree. But then again, it is the government's job to respond to unexpected things which negatively affect a population. I don't know if the European government has the power to split the OS and system groups like the US government almost did, but such a thing might also be sufficient.

    32. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3:) MS has no option but to comply

      I think you misspelled bribe. Corporate 'citizen' or not, they can still beat drums made of euros and the pols will still shake their booties to the rhythm. Just look how close the software patents fight has been so far and imagine 10x the pressure.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    33. Re:The article says "accepts"... by hedge_death_shootout · · Score: 2, Informative

      This is not just the will of government bureaucrats, this is also the will of the people that they represent

      Hmm, bollocks. I dont recall any government bureaucrat bothering to ask me my opinion on the matter.
      And, who the hell is 'the independent MSEU'?

    34. Re:The article says "accepts"... by indifferent+children · · Score: 3, Insightful
      M$ has engaged in criminal behavior to prevent other companies from competing. This has included *stealing* other companies work (Stak) and including it in M$ products. They have already been convicted of this. Then there are the Sherman Anti-Trust Act violations.

      You are free to compete with my restaurant by opening your own. If I repeatedly burn down your restaurant and those of my other competitors, it just means that I am the best restauranteur, and all of you would-be competitors are incompetent.

      --
      Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it. --Mark Twain
    35. Re:The article says "accepts"... by ynohoo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And the answer is because users like Microsoft products.

      I call BS on that. They have a larger market share because they have coerced hardware distributors to pre-package PCs with Windows. Most consumers don't want to stump up the extra cash for Apple PCs, so end up with Windows. After a few software purchases, they are effectively locked into continued dependence on Windows to run their software.

      I know this because I am in this position, at home & at work. I think MS Word is horrible, clunky, difficult to use word processing software, but am prevented from save files in anything except *.doc format because I am informed by my employer it is the "industry standard".

    36. Re:The article says "accepts"... by Alsee · · Score: 2, Funny

      You can't engage in illegal anticompetitive behaviors and still represent something as an even playing field. Period. I'm sorry if this sounds patronizing to you, but it's a pretty easy concept. If there was a way I could explain it that was complicated and difficult I would.

      You are wrong WRONG WRONG!

      You certainly can explain it in a way that is more complicated and difficult. I suggest you try using a thesaurus. Use more commas, lots and lots of commas. Try writing it in Cantonese. And if all else fails, let Clippy offer you some advice.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    37. Re:The article says "accepts"... by 4of12 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I really wonder if the E.U. would find it worth the diplomatic row this would create with the U.S.

      Yes. I could see where MS non-compliance could be used as a poker chip in larger negotiations between the EU and the US about WTO grievances, eg. about Airbus gov't subsidies vs Boeing's defense contracts, farming subsidies that both sides have traditionally dealt out, etc.

      From my perspective, MS doesn't need to release its source code. It would be unfair to make them reveal a trade secret about how they implement a functionality if they don't want to.

      But, MS should be required to release complete, accurate interfaces and specifications of functionality to anyone that wants to look at them, no strings (NDA, RAND royalities, etc.) attached.

      --
      "Provided by the management for your protection."
  2. Can't do it.... by rdean400 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft's got the same problem Sun has with the JRE. They might be able to use Sun as an excuse.

    1. Re:Can't do it.... by TheoMurpse · · Score: 2, Funny

      In a few trillion years, it will have run out of fuel.

  3. Accepting demands by T(V)oney · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wasn't aware Microsoft had a choice regarding which demands they would accept and would not accept.

    1. Re:Accepting demands by ctr2sprt · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Sure, they have a choice. They can take their ball and go home. "There are levels of survival we are prepared to accept." Of course, it would never go that far. MS would threaten it, maybe stop selling Windows in Europe for a few weeks, then both sides would panic and split the difference.

      Or MS can say "The fines for noncompliance will be lower than the cost of damage to our business if we do comply. So we're going to eat the fines." Even if that were true, eventually the EU would either crank up the fines or simply bar MS from selling Windows as-is, in which case we're back to option 1.

    2. Re:Accepting demands by Zemran · · Score: 4, Insightful

      IANAL etc. etc. but

      [ They can take their ball and go home. ]

      Yes, but they still would not be complying with the court order and would be subject to severe penalties. They could sell 4 copies of the new product and then go but then the cat would be out of the bag already.

      [ MS would threaten it, ]

      How to really offend a European court. They are not in the US, they have to respect the court or they will suffer. They do not have political clout behind them anymore. In fact if they threaten to do something like that it could easily be seen as contempt.

      [ "The fines for noncompliance will be lower than the cost of damage to our business if we do comply. So we're going to eat the fines." ]

      This would constitute contempt and could result in a lot more than just a higher fine. The person that makes the decision not to comply can be taken to court and can be sent to prison. I think that no high paid executive wants to do that. The fine for non-compliance is a fine for dragging your feet, now they are no longer dragging their feet, they have decided to not comply they enter a whole new game. I do not know exactly what has been said but if they said 'no' they are incredibly stupid and liable to real penalties. They should say 'we are going to, but we are having real difficulty and need more time. Maybe if the court could possibly help us by changing things a little we would be able to sort this out sooner'. Any refusal is bad but to ask for help is good.

      --
      I love stacking my barbecues in the shed at the end of summer - you can't beat a bit of grill on grill action.
    3. Re:Accepting demands by cgenman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The banks in Switzerland that hold their money? Officers of the company for non-compliance as they travel the world?

      You can't violate a country's laws, get caught, and decide to go home instead of facing the penalties. Even US courts would recognize that. It's not a question of whether or not they want to make this deal. It's a question of how hard can the international court system come down on them if they try to hide from justice. Considering how difficult it would be fore MS to actually hide, they're far better off trying to derail the court proceedings.

    4. Re:Accepting demands by mcc · · Score: 4, Insightful

      MS would threaten it, maybe stop selling Windows in Europe for a few weeks, then both sides would panic and split the difference.

      Another possibility is that MS could stop selling Windows in Europe and Europe could respond by nationalizing the copyright on all Microsoft, Inc properties and releasing them into the public domain. Meaning they wouldn't need Microsoft to sell windows. Hey, look at that trade surplus with the U.S. abruptly swell.

      Might be a bit difficult to pull off technically, but at some point the EU is going to do something if it wants to be considered a group of sovereign countries with their own laws, as opposed to just a funny kind of U.S. territory to which the constitutional protections on human rights don't apply. Cave on this and they'll be walked all over for the rest of their existence.

    5. Re:Accepting demands by Erwos · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Another possibility is that MS could stop selling Windows in Europe and Europe could respond by nationalizing the copyright on all Microsoft, Inc properties and releasing them into the public domain."

      I love how this "solution" is bandied about. Is this really the precedent you want to set? IE, a European country suddenly is doing "too well" in the US, so they just nationalized? Europeans love to talk tough about how their software industry is just going to _pulverize_ the US's, but if everyone just keeps ignoring the other guy's copright, there won't be much industry left.

      _Real people_ own Microsoft. It's not like it's just some shadowy group of owners plotting evil against the world. If you're an American with _any_ money in the stock market (which includes such things as 401k's, mutual funds, IRAs, etc), you most likely own some Microsoft stock. The political repercussions of hitting Microsoft like this are FAR greater than most Europeans on here apparently imagine. Five rich guys don't amount to much. Fify million middle-class Joes are a rather substantial voting bloc, and the last thing you want for them to start voting is "SCREW THE EU!"

      The least of such sanctions would be from the WTO. Are you just going to ignore those, proving, in reality, you don't give a fig about keeping your word than Microsoft? That all this talk of "international rules" is really just doublespeak for organized mob rule?

      In fact, it could lead to a full out economic embargo - you can't just take what you want when it becomes convienient in the civilized world, because people will simply stop giving. If the EU does indeed have a trade surplus, you just shot your own foot making some sort of idiotic statement about the EU.

      -Erwos

      --
      Plausible conjecture should not be misrepresented as proof positive.
  4. ...wtf? by Nicholas+Evans · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Microsoft officials told BetaNews they are trying 'to find a way that companies can implement these technologies in code that would get distributed with open source products, but the source code wouldn't be published itself.'"

    Because not being allowed to distribute code is totally opensource.

    Really, wtf are these people on?

    1. Re:...wtf? by amliebsch · · Score: 5, Informative

      RTFA. The dispute has to do with licensing Microsoft's proprietary code, and whether or not they were locking open-source projects out of the licensing agreements. MS probably was, out of fear that if their code was incorporated into an open-source project, it would be open-sourced. The EU is not requiring MS to open-source their code.

      --
      If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
  5. MSOSS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    As an act of goodwill Microsoft has decided to open source minesweeper.

  6. so-long by suezz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I would tell them to meet all 26 or hit the road.

    Eu doesn't need microsoft - microsoft needs them so I would tell them to fsck off if they don't comply with everything. after all you are their customers and being Microsoft they should be wanting to meet the customers demands - isn't this the reason they implement their crap - you know like put out the next IE7 - cause their customers asked them for it.

    1. Re:so-long by atezun · · Score: 2, Funny

      so I would tell them to fsck off What good would turning off filesystem checking do?

  7. Is this news anymore? by philovivero · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Government agency tells Microsoft "You've been bad. Here is your punishment." Microsoft tells government agency "Your punishment is bad, yes. But we do not accept your punishment. Instead, here is what we'd rather the punishment be." Government agency tells Microsoft "No, you will comply." Microsoft gives some money to the government agency. Government agency says "Aaah. We've reconsidered. Microsoft has actually chosen a very reasonable punishment for itself."

    1. Re:Is this news anymore? by GreyWolf3000 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I seriously got the impression here on Slashdot that the EU was a reasonable, progressive, and moral government, and that it was the United States that was corrupt and doomed for destruction.

      I hope Europeans can stop complaining about our corrupt government, and Americans can stop whining about European governments in general, and we can all collectively recognize the lameness of basically all big world powers.

      --
      Slashdot: Where people pretend to be twice as smart as they really are by behaving like children.
    2. Re:Is this news anymore? by ikkonoishi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you kidding?

      You mean you actually believed those old propaganda videos? Do you know that in those films antimatter is a code word for puppies?

      When Geordie referred to the "antimatter containment units" he was referring to the kennels where puppies were forced to run on treadmills to power the ship. When the puppies died from exhaustion they were liquefied and fed intravenously to the rest of the puppies.

    3. Re:Is this news anymore? by Flounder · · Score: 2, Funny
      When Geordie referred to the "antimatter containment units" he was referring to the kennels where puppies were forced to run on treadmills to power the ship. When the puppies died from exhaustion they were liquefied and fed intravenously to the rest of the puppies.

      So, when they have a containment breach in the warp core, that means...

      Nevermind, I DON'T want to know. But it does explain so much about Star Trek (Wesley, Kirk's thing for alien chicks, Troi's sweater puppies).

      --

      No boom today. Boom tomorrow. There's always a boom tomorrow. - Cmdr. Susan Ivanova

    4. Re:Is this news anymore? by back_pages · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I seriously got the impression here on Slashdot that the EU was a reasonable, progressive, and moral government, and that it was the United States that was corrupt and doomed for destruction.

      Are you kidding me? What, pray tell, convinced you that the EU was the shining city on the hill that split from all known history? I always figured it was a bunch of people trying to broker power for their own benefit, that power being granted in turn for keeping some decorum of law and order. Maybe I was the cynic?

      I'm hardly an anachist, but show me the government that hasn't fallen and I'll show you a young government.

      I hope Europeans can stop complaining about our corrupt government, and Americans can stop whining about European governments in general, and we can all collectively recognize the lameness of basically all big world powers.

      And then what? We'll all enroll in Philosophy 101 and get stoned? Ya know, they don't call the Empire an empire for nothing. Enjoy whatever moral superiority you suppose you have. I'll enjoy my days as part of the Empire, and afterwards, we'll see who had a better time.

  8. No problem by ravenspear · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sure we can get some people to upload a torrent with the code in question...oh wait!

  9. Why force them to license the source? by LiENUS · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Licensing the source-code does not do much, a much better solution would be to require them to open the patents and specifications up for their drm and media formats. This gives their competitors a firm standing to enter the market with them. It would also allow opensource implementations of their media formats on linux with full drm support.

    1. Re:Why force them to license the source? by LiENUS · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah... open up the specs to their drm formats. Like the RIAA/MPAA would really ever allow that to happen. You honestly think they don't believe in security through obscurity?

      Except this is not the RIAA or MPAA, this is Microsoft and the EU. Nothing has taken place in America hence the Recording Industry Association of America and the Motion Picture Association of America have no say in what goes on.

    2. Re:Why force them to license the source? by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Because the concept of DRM is inherently flawed. Encryption is designed to prevent interception of a message in-transit. If any people with a player can eyeball content, someone can save it with a camera, draw a picture or whatever. Worse, if all players use the same key (like CSS for DVD), then everyone has the key in their possession. It can be reverse-engineered by inspection. Even if they put it in hardware, someone can reverse-engineer it with a microscope (it is how some companies do industrial espionage of competitor products).

      People trying to sell bulletproof DRM are nothing but snake-oil salesmen, and they know it.

  10. Apologies for the pun by aendeuryu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Sorry about the pun, but it seems like accountability is easily trumped by bank account ability.

    I'd give anything to see the EU tell Microsoft to follow all 26 or face a continent-wide ban. Can you imagine any single one of us, after being found guilty of something, picking and choosing our punishments in a court of law?

  11. Maybe I'm confused by Pinefresh · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't see why Microsoft should have to turn over their source code without any kind of compensation. They did develop the product, and it seems to me that they should be able to profit from it. In my opinion the demands of the EU are in this case unreasonable.

    1. Re:Maybe I'm confused by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I don't see why Microsoft should have to turn over their source code without any kind of compensation. They did develop the product, and it seems to me that they should be able to profit from it. In my opinion the demands of the EU are in this case unreasonable.

      It's because they broke the law. It's a punishment that attempts to correct some of the damage they did. It's like this a guy mugs and old lady takes the cash in her purse and bets it all on a number in roulette. He wins big then the cops nab him. The judge just said, "the money he won goes to charity as part of his punishment."

    2. Re:Maybe I'm confused by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 2
      While I agree with you... we are in the vast minority.

      Nobody is asking Microsoft to reveal their source code, so both you and your buddy are barking up the wrong tree.

    3. Re:Maybe I'm confused by wcdw · · Score: 3, Informative

      Actually, after re-reading the article, I have to concede that, in some respects, it is THE ARTICLE which is confused.

      From an earlier, more accurate, article:

      It ordered Microsoft to share data protocols with competitors, including open source software companies.

      PROTOCOLS. NOT SOURCE CODE.

      --
      If you're not living on the edge, you're just taking up space!
    4. Re:Maybe I'm confused by michael_cain · · Score: 2, Informative
      I don't see why Microsoft should have to turn over their source code without any kind of compensation.

      There have been entire magazines whose editorial policy was to publish articles describing how the various MS implemenations of APIs and protocols deviated from the official external MS documentation. Perhaps MS has cleaned up their internal situation over the past few years, but various insiders have been quoted in the past saying things that suggest that even MS considers the source code the only reliable documentation for how some of the protocols "work". IIRC, there was a recent case where an insider admitted that the Samba team's documentation of some aspects of the SMB protocol was more accurate than anything MS had internally.

    5. Re:Maybe I'm confused by Legion303 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "I don't see why Microsoft should have to turn over their source code"

      Aside from the fact that they aren't required to turn over source, this is like asking "why can't that (American) guy buy a gun? It's a constitutional right!" while ignoring the fact that he's a convicted felon and is still out on parole. MS was convicted of being a monopoly, and as such must comply with the law regardless of what you think companies should be allowed to do.

  12. Code? by dmaxwell · · Score: 5, Interesting

    MS' code being out there would cause nothing but SCO style problems anyway. What is needed is to force (full) disclosure of (actual) protocols and formats. The last thing we need is accusations of improperly using MS' own implementation.

    Other people's code isn't necessarily good documentation and usually won't drop into another project's tree anyway. Why is there such emphasis on code? Should we be talking about specifications?

  13. What about by deutschemonte · · Score: 5, Interesting

    open formats/standards? They should force Microsoft to use the .odf format that KOffice and OpenOffice now use as default?

    If they would just take away Microsoft's virtual monopoly on the office document format it would make it easier for users to switch to open alternatives.

    I have always said that switching people to open software on Windows is the first step to switching people to open software period.

    To me the lack of forced open document formats and standards compliance is the only thing keeping open software from grabbing large market share from Microsoft.

    --
    The preceding message was based on actual events. Only the names, locations and events have been changed.
    1. Re:What about by scdeimos · · Score: 2, Insightful
      open formats/standards? They should force Microsoft to use the .odf format that KOffice and OpenOffice now use as default?
      Yes, except the first thing MS would do in response is start adding proprietary extensions to the ODF format so as to break it for everyone else.
    2. Re:What about by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not if they have to pass a compliance suite they won't.

  14. Re:Microsoft *might* be b/w a rock & hard plac by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Informative

    forcing MS to license any of their software under the GPL seems grossly anti-capitalistic.

    No country in the world has a straight capitalism. The reason is that in an unmanaged capitalism, eventually all the money gravitates to one place. One monopoly is leveraged into another then another and eventually there is only one company. Monopolies break all the advantages offered by capitalism. They remove all incentive for innovation, supply an demand, and for making the customer happy.

    Allowing MS to leverage one monopoly into multiple monopolies breaks capitalism, which is why monopolies have to follow special rules. Get it?

  15. Where to begin... by benjamindees · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's so many wrong things in your post... I don't have time to correct them all. Suffice it to say:

    1) BSD is open source.
    2) Anything released under BSD can be forked and re-released under GPL.
    3) It's absolutely possible to "integrate" software in Linux without it being GPL.

    Probably missed some things... no doubt others will pick them up :)

    --
    "I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
  16. Re:Microsoft *might* be b/w a rock & hard plac by belmolis · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As far as I can see, in theory, full and accurate specifications of the APIs and protocols ought to be sufficient to allow interoperability and prevent Microsoft from having an unfair advantage over competitors. The problem is that nobody trusts Microsoft to publish full and honest specs and adhere to them. They are known for having undocumented interfaces and for departing from standards. Forcing them to publish the source would let others determine the actual APIs and protocols by inspection, and we'd know whether the source they published was real because its behavior could be compared with that of Microsoft's binaries. However, this doesn't require that Microsoft license its source under the GPL. People can perfectly well implement Microsoft's APIs and protocols with their own code. What it does require, other than publishing the software with terms that do not prohibit use of the information gleaned in GPL-ed software, is freedom from patents.

    Insofar as Microsoft has been convicted of monopolistic behavior, I don't think it has a choice if publishing source code under the GPL is the only way of adressing its improper behavior. It's not like something that is insufficiently in line with capitalism is "cruel and unusual punishment". If Microsoft really doesn't want to publish its source, it seems to me that the only thing to do is to force them to stand behind their specs by imposing significant penalties for differences in behavior between their software and the specs. This could even be a way of diverting the efforts of some crackers - finding discrepancies would be a thrill, and could even be remunerative if a percentage of the fine were awarded as a bounty.

  17. Great! by ta+bu+shi+da+yu · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I'm sure SuSE would be more than happy to take up the slack, as would many other non-American companies! This could be a really good thing for the EU.

    Unfortunately, this isn't going to happen as the market is lucrative in Europe and there's NO WAY that Microsoft would give it up.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
    1. Re:Great! by cheesybagel · · Score: 2, Informative

      SuSE was bought by Novell FYI.

  18. Re:Can't Really blame MS by quarkscat · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Not to quibble, but MSFT played a waiting game
    in the USA -- it only took a regime change for
    MSFT to be able to dictate their own punishment.
    No doubt, MSFT is playing this same waiting
    game in the EU.

    Politicians are pretty much alike the whole
    world over; money talks, and more money talks
    louder. American politicians may find (to their
    consternation) that they were bought far too
    cheaply compared to their brethern in the EU.

  19. Not Microsoft's code, yours by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This isn't about microsoft's license on their code. This is about them demanding that you don't open source your own implementation after you have read their documentation.

  20. AP Wire Text by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    This has more information than the BetaNews article - full AP Text.

    Microsoft says it will meet most EU demands

    By ALLISON LINN
    AP BUSINESS WRITER

    Microsoft Corp. says it will meet most demands by European Union regulators on making software blueprints available to competitors, including lowering licensing fees, but is seeking further talks on some issues.

    Microsoft said it delivered a letter to EU regulators on Monday detailing its intentions.

    The EU last month threatened new fines if Microsoft doesn't make it easier and cheaper for competitors to see the blueprints, known as source code.

    Brad Smith, Microsoft's top lawyer, said the Redmond, Wash.-based company told the European Union it isn't opposed to licensing the code to open-source developers as long as it's assured that its intellectual property will be safeguarded.

    Open-source programs led by the Linux operating system pose perhaps the most serious threat to Microsoft because their code is freely shared, while Microsoft closely guards its source code.

    Click Here
    Smith said Microsoft also wants clarification on whether concerns that view its source code can develop and distribute software outside of Europe.

    EU spokesman Jonathan Todd said Monday afternoon that he could not yet confirm that the Commission received Microsoft's latest letter, but said "We have received a letter in response" to our questions that Microsoft sent before Easter.

    He said the EU was "studying it carefully." He gave no further comment on the content of Microsoft's letter or on Monday's announcement

    The EU compelled Microsoft, in a March 2004 antitrust ruling in which it fined the company 497 million euros ($640 million dollars), to share the source code with competitors who make server software so their products can better communicate with Windows-powered computers.

    European regulators also ordered Microsoft to produce a Windows version minus its multimedia player to provide a more level playing field for competitors such as RealNetworks Inc.

    Microsoft has complied with that order but says it will only make the software available in Europe. Dow Jones Newswires reported last week that Dell Inc., a leading computer maker, would not offer the stripped-down Windows version as an option.

    Company officials would not provide The Associated Press with a copy of the letter they submitted to the EU on Monday.

    But they listed these changes that they said they had accepted in the server source code reviewing procedure:

    -Microsoft will customize licenses for developers who want to pick and choose from source code rather than buying a preset package.

    -The company will give competitors a price break on reviewing source code and more time to decide whether they want to license it - charging 500 euros ($645) a day for up to eight days instead of allowing a maximum of two days at 3,850 euros ($4,965) for the first day or 5,390 euros ($6,950) for two days.

    Microsoft spokesman Jim Desler said the company was working on a new set of prices for licenses to address the commission's concerns that previously proposed fees of $100 to $600 (77 euros to 465 euros) per server were too high.

    Desler would not elaborate on any details of the new royalty fee structure.

    Andy Gavil, a Howard University law professor who is co-writing a book on Microsoft's antitrust battles, says the company has good reason to try to elongate the process, especially given its plans to appeal the March 2004 order.

    Microsoft has been ordered to comply with the ruling even as it seeks an appeal.

    Gavil said Microsoft is concerned about losing the freedom to build new features into its operating systems and that sharing too much with competitors will weaken its business.

    "In a sense, they're trying to define a software philosophy and a business strategy," Gavil said.

    Smith emphatically denied that the company has any interest in slowing down the proces

  21. Waiting.. by priestx · · Score: 2, Funny

    Waiting for Microsoft themselves, to put out a form of GPL they can use, to their advantage of course.

    --
    "To be is to do." -Socrates
    "To do is to be." -Jean-Paul Sartre
    "Do-be-do-be-do." -Frank Sinatra
  22. Open for Negotiation by digitallife · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For craps sake. If the government takes me to court and slaps the shit out of me, I do my god damned punishment or the police stick their boots up my ass. I didn't realize these things were open for negotiation. Lets all just get it out in the open: Big companies own us... pretty much literally.

  23. Well, it's the EU's move now by Pinefresh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It seems like everyone in this thread is assuming the EU is just going to take it, but no where in that story did I read that they had made a response or statement. They haven't given in yet, it'll be interesting to see how this story unfolds.

  24. Re:Microsoft *might* be b/w a rock & hard plac by scdeimos · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Open source != Linux. There's more involved here than a few nasty proprietary protocols people want to port to Linux.

    For instance:
    - On the Windows platform itself, there's a number of open source apps which can't do everything MS apps can because the MS apps are using undocumented API's.
    - non-Windows media players can't make use of extensions to AVI/WMA and DRM because of closed MS specifications.

    It would be a big win for open source if MS just released full documentation of all of their API's - it would certainly level the playing field somewhat.

    A "sponsor program" to allow patents or core algorithms to be used in a royalty-free fashion would be another big win, but I doubt that would ever happen.

  25. This is a symbiotic relationship by Simonetta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Both Microsoft and the European Community government are new entities. Neither has the limits of their powers defined or tested.
    Many people besides the programming community and the politicians are watching this fight as it will define how the other major oligopalistic corporations will deal with the EU bureaucrats in the future.

    Microsoft needs the EU enforcement apparatice to maintain its monopoly and the European Union bureaucracy runs on Microsoft's software.

    This whole showdown is a 'tempest in a teacup' or 'tussles in Brussels' and will die down to an endless Eurocratic paper shuffle that will never be fully resolved. It's the kind of money-making machine for upper-class European lawyers that Brussels is becoming world-famous for. It will become just one more of the million and one things that makes Europe less attractive to do business in. It will be 'resolved' in the same matter that all European Community business issues get resolved; with local flavor. In Italy by bribe, in Germany by rigorous preparation of ten thousand pages of chickenshit regulations, and in France by a nod and wink that enables the enarcs to get their customary payoffs and the rest of the people to bask in the 'gloire de la republic'; that is, series of substance-less but emotionally-charged gestures.

  26. API and Specifications by blackwing0013 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's more important is that Microsoft would release all APIs and specifications for protocols and file formats royalty free to the open source community. While source might help, APIs and specifications are more important.

  27. I'm wondering... by Infinityis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    So is the stipulation that Microsoft release their source code for current products only, or for current AND future products? I'd say that makes a pretty big difference. If it's just current products, they'll probably go along with the EU eventually and just release a new version of Windows real quick like (Windows 2005? XP and a half?) before Longhorn ever comes out. If it's both current and future, then I'd say the EU is being a bit unreasonable...

  28. TFA is wrong! Not about source code! by Anon+E.+Muss · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As is often the case, the press is completely misreporting the issue. The EU never demanded that Microsoft release their own source code. What MSFT is required to do is license their network protocols and provide sufficient documentation to licensees so they can create their own implementations. A similar condition was part of the US antitrust case.

    The license that MSFT offered is (1) expensive, and (2) specifically prevents licensees from releasing the source code to their own implementations. The EU is mostly upset about the cost, and is therefore completely missing the point. The only effective remedy would be to require that MSFT publish the protocol specs and allow anybody (e.g. the SAMBA team) to implement them.

    Some would say that such a compulsory license amounts to the EU stealing MSFT's intellectual property. Bullshit! Do you believe that making them pay a fine is stealing their money? You can oppose the whole concept of antitrust regulation on Libertarian grounds, but that battle was fought and lost, the argument is over, and antitrust is settled law. The EU has the right to set antitrust rules and punish the violators.

    --
    The key sequence to access my Slashdot bookmark in Firefox is Alt-B-S. I don't believe this is a coincidence.
  29. O. J. Microsoft by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 5, Funny
    Meanwhile, in an alternate universe:
    In other words, O. J. Simpson today was convicted of murdering Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman. People familiar with the case stated that O. J. agreed to the terms of the verdict, except the one that says he must go to prison. The court is therefore waiving his prison sentence, and letting O. J. go free. Anyway, he said he was sorry, and he promised not to do anything like that again.
  30. The crux of the arguement by cbreaker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It's a touchy situation for both Microsoft and Open Source development.

    The only way to write fully interoperable code is to have access to the source code, says the EU. Microsoft counters with a system that allows access to *some* code, and it's very expensive to gain access to it.

    This would cut most Open Source projects out because they don't have the bankroll to pay for these fees, and even if they did most of them would be unwilling to pay for Microsoft code they can only look at.

    Many commercial firms spend gobs of money on all things most companies spend gobs of money on anyways, and can pay these fees.

    On the other hand, Microsoft may also be worried that if they allow access to the source without a high barrier to entry, it could mean lots of Microsoft code floating around the Internet. This is a distinct possibility, considering that you can already get every Microsoft product online.

    --
    - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
  31. API == Code by Saturn49 · · Score: 2

    I keep seeing the distinction between the API and the source code, but more often than not the code is the only reliable documentation of the API anyway - original API specs get horribly out of date during implementation. Many API specs include sample implementations too. So saying MS needs to license the API but not the source is somewhat contradictory.

    The easiest and cheapest way for MS to "license the API" is simply to license the source and let the purchaser dig through and find what they need.

    Just a glance through the rantings of the Samba team will show you that the protocols they are trying to use are full of bugs and special cases that change with the operating system you are communicating with. The "full API" is probably a combination of the original design specs patched with bug reports and the comments within the implementation code.

    To publish a complete API (without implementation code) would cost MS a decent amount of money to simply produce it in the first place.

    1. Re:API == Code by bstadil · · Score: 3, Insightful
      To publish a complete API (without implementation code) would cost MS a decent amount of money to simply produce it in the first place.

      So let them pick what option they want to do, being expensive if not really a concern of the EU. Remember this is not because they are nice guys but imposed because they broke the law in EU.

      --
      Help fight continental drift.
    2. Re:API == Code by belmolis · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's true that pre-implementation specs are often way off, but it is certainly not impossible to do a reasonable job of writing up them up. I've used systems to which I didn't have source that worked very much as the manuals said they did. I wrote a good bit of code on HP Bobcats using the man pages for HP-UX, Starbase graphics, and whatever their window system (the interrupt-based one, not X) was called. I don't recall ever encountering a discrepancy. And software was hardly HP's strength.

  32. opening the source would be admitting... by Progman3K · · Score: 2, Insightful

    opening the source would be admitting that they are infringing a number of patents

    --
    I don't know the meaning of the word 'don't' - J
  33. not their source code, other source code by idlake · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "We are working with the Commission to try to find a way that companies can implement these technologies in code that would get distributed with open source products, but the source code wouldn't be published itself so that the confidentiality of our information is preserved," the spokesperson added.

    It sounds like Microsoft is not even talking about access to their source code, they are talking about whether open source projects are permitted to distribute their own code necessary for interoperating with Microsoft code in open source form.

    In different words, Microsoft is trying to keep "confidential" exactly what the commission is requiring them to make public.

    Furthermore, since the only group of people they are trying to impose restrictions on is open source (since binary-only vendors have full access under the agreement already), this is a direct attack by Microsoft on open source.

    Well, it's good to see that Microsoft is validating open source through their action. Let's hope that the EU doesn't let them get away with this.

    1. Re:not their source code, other source code by idlake · · Score: 3, Informative

      If that was all there was to it, then the commission would have already abandoned demands for the ability to create open source software because "available for licensing [...] if you pay the license fee" is incompatible with open source. Since the debate is still on-going, obviously, that can't be all there is to it.

  34. Re:TFA is wrong! Not about source code! by goon+america · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "Intellectual property" amounts to an artificial government-granted monopoly, anyway. Companies like Microsoft would not be able to exist at all without it.

    Anti-trust suits are really the government suing another part of itself.

  35. they can't actually do that by Trepidity · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The governments represented by the EU cannot pass any law they like; they must respect the treaties they've signed, including those on copyrights and patents. These treaties do not permit confiscation of the copyrights or patents of a US-based company, and the U.S. could pursue trade sanctions if the EU attempted this.

  36. Learn thy geography by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem for MS is that:

    1. "EU government" really means something fundamentally different than "USA government". No, I'm not gonna bash the USA or anything. The EU just isn't one country. The U stands for UNION, and it's a union of independent nations.

    What passes for "EU government" or "EU agency" is just a shifty diplomatic treaty between countries that follow their own interests and have their own population to impress. If you bribe, say, a German bureaucrat in an EU agency, you'll have all the other EU countries screaming bloody murder, if only to push their own bureaucrat in his/her place.

    (Which also answers the usual "bet the EU wouldn't do that to their own companies" moans: there isn't such a thing as an EU company. If the EU failed to punish, say, a German monopoly, it would have France, Italy, Belgium, Holland, etc, screaming bloody murder.)

    So there isn't just one government to bribe. By the time you went through all the governments to bribe, one of them would have the next election.

    2. Speaking of elections, most EU countries have more interesting politics. They don't have two parties, both cattering to the corporations, for a start. Your average European's country's election is "won" by an unstable alliance of parties, neither of which usually has a majority on its own.

    It's a system which works precisely _because_ politicians are, well, politicians. (Said in all possible contempt.) It's a system where, in fact, they make populism and demagogy work.

    The "winner" doesn't get 4 years in which they can just rake in bribes and catter to the higher bidder with impunity, and the opposition doesn't just wait for their turn to rake in the bribes with impunity. There isn't any such thing as having an almost guaranteed turn at it: lose enough popularity and you can turn from an alliance leader to a minor member of someone else's alliance in the next elections. And even if you "won", the more other parties you need in a coalition for a majority, the more concessions you'll have to make to get them to support you, so better not end up too low.

    And more importantly, even if you won, alliances can be formed the other way around at any moment, if that is perceived as the more populist thing to do for those small parties in your coalition. If the "winning" party has, say, 41% of the places in the parliament, they might at any moment find themselves switched from leading a majority coalition of parties, to being the opposition because everyone else made a 59% coalition against them. The small members of a coalition really have nothing to lose from switching sides like that: they'll end up members of the majority coalition either way, so they might as well just pick the side that looks more popular.

    Bribery does exist in Europe's politics, but it's usually a lot more subtle than that, and offers more subtle benefits. You won't see a politician just openly being bought by a cartel and lobbying full time for them, or a party just openly forcing the DOJ to bend over for a corporation. That's the kind of thing that's plain political suicide down here, one way or the other: if you don't get kicked out by your party to save face, that party becomes the opposition very quickly as alliances form the other way around.

    So basically short of bribing every single political party in Europe, it's not easy for MS to just "give some money to the government" and get a free ride out. And bribing every single political party would be a pretty costly exercise even for MS.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  37. Who is John Galt? by NewUser9 · · Score: 3, Funny

    A sample conversation among international friends:

    European: "Well, but you see friend, this is necessary for the people. We're doing it for the people, after all."

    American: "Yeah, I get that, but aren't you afraid they'll just withdraw from the market?"

    European: "Ha! They wouldn't dare lose such a large piece of our thriving market. Why, why, that's 25 billion a year! Besides, do you really think our government would allow it? We could force them to stay after all. We could nationalize their entire business! What would they do then? Huh?"

    American: "I dunno... *shrugs* Who is John Galt?"

  38. Re:TFA is wrong! Not about source code! by wine · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The idea behind this settlement is for new competition to enter the server market. Open Soure is an important force in the industry and should therefor be able to compete. At this moment Microsoft is going for an easy ride.

    By the way, this insightful post gives a nice idea of why this license is incompatiable with open source. It's not all about the money. There are aspects of this license that go beyond the question of whether or not it can be implemented in open source. The license also cripples closed source implementations.

    Under this license, if you implement the server interfaces, you cannot deviate from what MS says your implementation has to be. This poses a great problem for companies that want to innovate beyond Microsofts "standards" or that do not want to implement such features as DRM.

    The EU should aim for a healthy server market in the best interest of its citizans. This would include multiple, unencumbered and independant implementations, some of which will probably be open source.

  39. Re:Sure, those with no SOULS. by kaens · · Score: 2, Insightful

    While I do not deny that it is possible for an entity to make a 25 billion dollar profit per year while retaining value and integrity, I can not think of a single real-life example.

    It seems to me that in order to acquire such massive profits while retaining "value and integrity" one would have to have a very good product, "value and integrity," and the desire to profit.

    In an area like desktop computing, I don't see how there could be such a giant gap between the profits of competing companies in what is supposed to be an open market, without the companty on the good end of the gap not really caring about keeping the market open.

    I mean what do you use a computer for? Is there any service that microsoft provides that is not equally providable through another company (barring proprietary file formats)?

    Apple, Linux, Windows, BSD, OSX, etc. All of these are just wrappers that enable you to interact with your computers hardware. That's it. They vary in the degree of interaction required, and the amount of interaction you are capable of.

    They are all pretty much equally capable of preforming the same tasks, they can all access the internet, they can all do word processing, etc etc everything your average person needs to do.

    A major part of the reason that windows is so huge is that microsoft got it to be the default install on just about any pre-built computer.

    Really want to make a free market for desktop computing? Require that hardware and operating systems are sold seperately, or that the end user at least has a choice of what to have installed on a pre-built computer.

    Force the user to make a choice. And require documentation on what you can do and how you can do it with the operating system freely available.

    There you go, free market for desktops influenced only by people's preference, (this is assuming a group of people entirely new to the concept of desktop computing, not the set of people we have now who are ingrained in windows) willingness to learn, and affordability of the OS.

    Note that I am not arguing with you, your comment is just what started my typing, I've been rambling without much aim ever since.

  40. Re:I don't get it by Anne+Thwacks · · Score: 3, Insightful
    Why is Microsoft expected to open its source

    They aren't. They are expected to publish honest and accurate descriptions of their APIs in such a way that open source can use them.

    They are twisting the words to get the support of the terminally ignorant.

    --
    Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
  41. Foolish Microsoft by Eternal+Annoyance · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Microsoft currently has 2 choices:
    - Comply and nothing painful happens.
    - Don't comply and be in for a world of pain.

    There are *no* alternatives to these options.
    There is *no* negociation possible.

    This is the EU, not the US.

  42. what am i missing? by erikkemperman · · Score: 4, Insightful

    EU: We find that you (MS) are breaking competition laws, and we order you to take these here 26 measures to allow other companies to enter into fair competition. You either take all these steps unconditionally, pay a fine per unit of time of non-compliance, or ultimately could be denied access to the EU market.

    MS: Of course we respect your decision and intend to comply fully. Well, almost fully. You see, some of the measures you have ordered would tend to interfere with our monopoly and our capacity to abuse it. We are in a position to negotiate the terms of your punishment, because.. Well, because all your base are belong to us! EU customers are so completely locked in our proprietary formats that they will revolt if you deny them our products!

    This is like Don Corleone telling the court: yes, your honour, it's true, I am a mafia don. And I accept your punishment, except if it is too severe I will naturally have to use my position as criminal mastermind and have you whacked.

    What am I missing?

    --
    Gosh, thanks. That must be why the other ships call me Meatfucker -- GCU Grey Area (Eccentric)
  43. Again, learn thy geography by Moraelin · · Score: 4, Insightful

    You propose, what? That MS bribes every single political party in every single country in Europe?

    You may find that "Europe" is not a single state, like the USA. It's a helluva lot of states in what's just slightly more than a diplomatic treaty. So who are you proposing to bribe? _All_ of them?

    You may also find that the political landscape in Europe is a _lot_ different than in the USA. Politicians here actually have to fight for their votes, rather than just sell themselves openly to the highest bidder. The result is a system which is _far_ less inclined to bend over to a corporation and shaft their voters. Au contraire, if in doubt they'll shaft the corporations for extra votes.

    Political majority means a fragile alliance of parties, neither of which has the majority, and all of which are trying to exploit their allies mistakes for their own benefit. Any one party who'd publicly bend over to a monopoly, would quickly find themselves switched from leader of the majority coalition to being _the_ opposition, because all their former allies did the populist thing and formed a coalition without them.

    More importantly, that wouldn't even buy a whole term for MS. If the political alliances form the other way around, who's the current leader can change right in the middle of a term.

    So what do you propose? That MS bribes every single political party, in every single country in Europe? I'm sure you can see how that's impractical.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Again, learn thy geography by Guuge · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I think "fight for their votes" was supposed to mean that the politicians have to benefit the people while in office in order to secure votes. The 2004 campaign was one of smear and counter-smear, with the most powerful propaganda machine winning in the end. The actual track records of the politicians were mostly ignored.

      It's revealing that we in the USA view "fighting for votes" as spending massive amounts of money on politicized slander.

  44. Wrong. Noone asked MS to GPL any of their code by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    MS was simply asked to license their APIs and protocols fairly to everyone, without discrimination. (E.g., no pulling a stunt like "nope, we won't license them to Mozilla because we still want to kill that threat to our monopoly.")

    That's all its about. APIs and protocol specs. No MS source code has to be involved, other than a few _header_ files. Or not even those, in the case of protocols.

    So MS thinks it's smart and comes up with a scheme that says "sure, you can get our specs if you sign this license saying that you can't open source _your_ code that implements those specs."

    Basically a way to say "grr, ok, you can see our specs but only as long as you're not one of those OSS commies. Then screw you, you can't interface with our products."

    "If these protocols can be implemented in Linux without forcing MS's software to be opened under the GPL, they should be forced to do that."

    Which is exactly what the EU asked. That's what this fight is all about.

    Noone asked MS to provide implementation code of its own, nor to GPL any of its implementation code. It's just basically saying "let others interface with your code." Including, yes, Linux programs, MacOS programs, or whoever else wants to use those protocols.

    And MS is basically saying "Nope, no OSS guys will talk to _our_ servers."

    That's what this is all about. MS is trying to kill OSS via a license that discriminates against OSS developpers. The EU says "sorry, you can't do that. We said non-discriminating and we meant it."

    But again, that never was about GPL-in any of _Microsoft's_ code. It just has to do with whether MS is allowed to say you can't GPL _your_ code (that incidentally calls their APIs or talks to one of their servers via a proprietary MS protocol.)

    And frankly, much as I'm not even pro-OSS, I don't think MS should be allowed to decide that. They (think they) make a good OS. Fine. But they shouldn't be in a position to dictate whose programs are allowed to run on it.

    Because allowing that is the shortest way to a monopoly.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  45. Sufficient documentation for licensees that's all. by davvr6 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "What MSFT is required to do is license their network protocols and provide sufficient documentation to licensees so they can create their own implementations. " Exactly. They still don't have to offer access to there libraries when they don't want to. Third party aps might be required to include redundant libraries separately.

  46. Re:TFA is wrong! Not about source code! by hibiki_r · · Score: 2, Informative
    Some would say that such a compulsory license amounts to the EU stealing MSFT's intellectual property. Bullshit! Do you believe that making them pay a fine is stealing their money? You can oppose the whole concept of antitrust regulation on Libertarian grounds, but that battle was fought and lost, the argument is over, and antitrust is settled law. The EU has the right to set antitrust rules and punish the violators

    It is 'stealing' their intellectual property. The only problem is that IP is an artificial construct that can be taken away. IP is just a social contract: Society enforces Pantents and Copyrights as far as your use of your rights helps better society in some way. If at any point you break the social contract by abusing your rights, all that the government has to do is stop enforcing IP laws as far as a certain company's IP is concerned. Just like in most european countries the government can expropiate land for a bargain price to build a highway, your IP can be taken away. The difference is you can still use your network standards after you've lost your property, so AFAIK, the government won't pay you a dime.

    Did you ever wonder why Brazil has ignored pharmaceutical patents for the last 20 years? What about Chinese and Japanese cloning of American products on the 80s? Governments do it because they can.