S. Korea Considers Using Armed Robots Along DMZ

Slicker writes "S. Korea and N. Korea (aka the ROK and DPRK, respectively) share the most heavily fortified border that has ever existed. Now the ROK is considering deployment of armed robots." Not expected until sometime in the 2010s. From the article: "Robots with weapons mounted on their frames are each expected to be able to observe from 2 and 1 kilometers during the day and night, respectively, and will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."

Comments

The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[TripMaster Monkey]

From the article:

"The ministry is considering robots which could detect, trace and hit targets automatically or be controlled remotely by operators," said Col. Shin Byung-chul of the ministry public affairs office.

Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

Doesn't sound like the best of ideas. Also from the article:

...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras.

Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[Alien Being]

Still, it's probably a better idea than landmines.

Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[Bonhamme Richard]

Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)? Doesn't sound like the best of ideas

From what I've heard about the DMZ in Korea, there aren't any civilians. Most S. Koreans don't want to live that close to where the invasion will come from (if/when it comes) and the N. Koreans aren't allowed to live that close to anywhere where they could escape. National Georaphic actually did a report about how this made the DMZ in Korea one of the worlds most impressive wildlife reserves...

...there are no electric fences, nor electronic sensors and surveillance cameras. Seems to me that the South Koreans might be better off upgrading their fences and perimeters (proven technology) than putting their faith in autonomous killer robots (unproven, scary, incredibly risky sci-fi technology).

Eletric fences may work great against crime etc, but as a military option... a fence isn't going to stop a tank, or even a really determined group of foot soldiers. The Atomic Bomb was unproven, scary, risky and sci-fi, but it saved the lives of an estimated 1 Million Marines/U.S. Army, and an untold number of Japanese.

(Yes, I would argue that it saved Japanese lives, based on Iwo Jimi, Okinawa, etc, Japanese soilders would have fought for every inch of Japan, and likely would have destroyed the country in the process, but this is an arguement for another post...)

The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way. Automated defences are replacable, but our military men and women are not.

Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[tomhudson]

Target anything that moves and doesn't have a valid RFID signature.

I can just see it now ..

Dateline: June 1st, 2008, South Korea

Today South Korea was invaded by millions of North Koreans, who were able to bypass the robosoldiers by wearing RFID tags that identified them as WalMart Potted Plants.

Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[TapeCutter]

Yes, it's much better now that the land mines can chase you! The DMZ is a human free zone full of mines, anyone stepping into it is shot at from watch towers on either side. From the stories in the media it appears to be so effective that anyone trying to escape the North usually does so by crossing the border into China. The problem is not the technology, the problem is that this type of behaviour is considered normal for nation states.

Re:The Robot Apocalypse draws one step nearer...

[TapeCutter]

The great wall of China, Adrians Wall, The Berlin Wall, The DMZ, The Isreal Barrier. The behaviour is insane and common.

OSQ

[roman_mir]

"The battles of the future will not be fought on a battleground or at sea, they will be fought in space. Or at the top of a very tall mountain. In either case, most of the actual fighting will be done by small robots. And as you go forward today, your duty is clear, to build and maintain those robots. Thank you."

Circle?

[Xshare]

"will have the capability to record voices and take pictures in a 180-degree circle."

Screw the armed robots, I just wanna see how they pulled this off!

Re:Circle?

[return_of_ffalcon]

obviously, the circle is on a cone.

Re:Circle?

[Linker3000]

In a spirit of mutual understanding, and in order to establish a tentative cross-border relationship, it was agreed several years ago that South Korea owns and maintains the bottom half of all circles and North Korea keeps the tops, so an 'official' circle in both countries is only 180 degrees and anyone caught drawing a full 360 degree circle is fined or sent for re-education. If you want a complete 'western-style' circle (or circular object), you have to send your part-work to the ministry of circumferences (MoC) in the opposite country where it is assigned to a worker for completion - this really frustrates infant schoolkids who draw pictures including a bright yellow sun.

Hey Laserlips, your momma was a snowblower!

[Anonymous Coward]

Johnny Five unavailable for comment.

ED-209

[Seek_1]

Was anyone else really hoping that they'd look something like ED-209?

Reminds me of ROBOCOP

[vchoy]

quote......Robots with weapons mounted on their frames...

Robot:YOU have 20 seconds to comply
man: "What the!?!? But wait... I'm friendly..."
Robot:YOU have 15 seconds to comply
man: $&$&#%!!!!! Okay okay I have my hands up
Robot:YOU have 10 seconds to comply
man: TURN IT OFF!!!
Robot:5,4,3...

Re:Reminds me of ROBOCOP

[LiquidCoooled]

Soldier: "So what do we do if it attacks us?"

Scientist: "Just reach behind you, pick up the big pile of shit and throw it at the robot."

Soldier: "What if that doesn't stop it?"

Scientist: "Reach behind once more and grab the bigger pile of shit, this time throw it in its eyes - that'll stop it!"

Soldier: "Hang on, where is all this shit coming from?"

Scientist: "It will be there, trust me."

Robot Apocalypse of Nature is one step closer

[idonotexist]

The DMZ is a wildlife paradise --- hopefully the wildlife is not extinguished by armedbots because the wildlife merely moves throughout the DMZ. I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.

Re:Robot Apocalypse of Nature is one step closer

[servognome]

I would like to see the armedbots recognize the difference between human and animal before going robocop.
If it's anything like most engineers' experience with technology development...
The original proposal was for a fully functional AI that could positively identify the target type, the threat level, and respond appropriately. It would include lethal and non-lethal force responses for enemy targets, as well as not disturb civilians or wildlife that wander through the area. The AI would require a team of 30 engineers and 16 months to fully develop and test.
But of course to save on costs, management decided to go with a simpler and cheaper AI they feel will meet the customer's needs: "If it moves, kill it"

'social ethics' & warfare

[xiaomonkey]

I wonder how the 'social ethics' warfare will be effected by using autonomous robotic soldiers.

On one hand the people of a country using such robots could become less apposed to using military force against another country. That is, no longer will your son/daughter/friends be put in harms way.

However, for the people in the country being attacked, such machines would probably be seen as monstrous cold killing machines. Something that accidentally below away your 6 year old since it confused him/her for an enemy combatant.

IFF

[GuyMannDude]

Remote-control sounds fine, but automatically? Do we have software capable of reliably distingushing between a civilian and an enemy combatant (at least as well as a human soldier can, anyway...)?

Well, no, but that wouldn't be necessary. I'm sure the robots would use some form of Identification Friend or Foe [IFF] method. I'm not saying those arne't foolproof but that doesn't really require any type of automatic target recognition (ATR) or image recognition software.

Note, I'm not saying that IFF makes these robots a great idea. I'm just pointing out that the idea isn't completely idiotic.

GMD

Re:IFF

[Kadin2048]

An excellent point. Something which I don't think is discussed enough, especially in relation to the (IMO lame) arguments over Predator drones, is that aircraft shoot at each other all the time when there is no possible way of observation except through some equipment-mediated method.

With over-the-horizion air-to-air missiles, satellite-guided bombs, and long range artillery, there are lots of situations where a human being can be there at the weapon pulling the trigger and have the exact same knowledge that someone in a bunker 5,000 miles away might have. And quite possibly less. And quite certainly they're a lot more distracted/frustrated/tired/sweaty than someone who's entire job that day is to fly the [bomb/drone/artillery shell] to its target on a computer screen.

With the exception of infantry and special operations units, who still get to meet their enemies up-close and personal on a regular basis, many groups of warriors on the modern battlefield never see their adversaries with the naked eye, and hunt, engage, and destroy them through the intermediary of a computer or other electronic viewer. UAVs, taking one example, just take the wire between the camera/sensor on the outside of the aircraft (i.e. the FLIR) and the pilot's display, and extend it from 15' or so, to a few thousand miles. The decision is still being made the same way.

The Terrible Secret of Space

[mazarin5]

How are they going to push anybody down from 2 miles away?

Re:Um... what?

[servognome]

Now I am aware of how hostile those two nations are but I mean comon, once both sides have robots, what next?
Bigger robots

Starcraft is their specialty

[Sebadude]

...South Korean Zergling Rush?

Well..

[shbazjinkens]

Anything that will ease tensions between North and South Korea is fine with me.

I think killer robot patrols are a great start, personally.

Cost-saving measures

[cgenman]

"The robots will be remote controlled," said the South Korean ministry of defense. "Thus allowing for operational efficiencies far beyond what is possible today."

A reporter raises his hand. "You mean, you're setting up remote call centers?"

"Yes, we're outsourcing to China. There, thousands of workers costing us just pennies a day will patrol our borders with giant armed robots, thus fulfilling our defense needs and the needs of the Chinese population as expressed through their arts and animation."

"Any word on the North Korean Reaction?"

"Yes, and this brings better news." interjects the Ministry of Finance. "North Korea has decided to setup their own robot army and, being years behind everyone else, has decided to outsource to us for their remote defense needs. Now we could simply take their billions of pounds of rice and make a tidy profit," said the Ministry of Finance, "but South Korea is the most advanced nation in the world. We have decided to setup an online community of people willing to pay for the priviledge of protecting a theoretical Kingdom from invading barbarians, inside of a communial, multiplayer environment."

"A Massively Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game?"

"Yes, a MMPORPG. A MMPORPG so grand it will make Lineage look like Everquest."

Everyone in the room laughs, except for the American who looks confused.

"And you too for just 15 dollars a month can be the last line of defense against a rampaging horde of demons. They're very expensive demons, funded by Satan himself. Demons who want to ravage your women, kill your pets, and give you low-paying jobs without benefits while preventing unionization.

"As border skirmishes are rare, won't this game be incredibly boring?"

"People pay to play Star Wars Galaxies, don't they?"

Bender units

[skingers6894]

What they really need is a bunch of Bender units instead. Everyone might learn to lighten up a bit over there...

Re:PR campaign...

[rapidweather]

If the bird flu problem in North Korea cannot be contained, then DMZ robots would take a back seat to the greater problem of widespread infection, pandemic throughout Korea:

Concerning the North's efforts to contain bird flu, the ROK has been asked to help/send assistance to the North. The threat of bird flu (H5N1) and the resulting destruction of an important food source does not bode well for the DPRK.

Perhaps the South's robot technology can lead to robots that can spray disinfectants in the big chicken farms the North Koreans have (or had). Humans have to wear protective suits to do that.

Check out what one scientist says about bird flu killing 1 billion people.

Hope North Korea gets the aid it needs to contain the virus for a while longer.

The US is sending testing kits needed to determine the scope of the problem.

You guys overestimate military technology

[CHESTER COPPERPOT]

I know this is a technology centric website but let me say, as someone who has worked in the military with pretty high-tech gear, you guys are overestimating military technology. Some of you out there might say "But I seen military technology work all the time." Well that's nice, but I've seen how the triumvirate of scientist/engineer contractors, military officers and shitty technology can come together to make a terrible economic and time wasting mess.

I state the overestimation for a number of cynical reasons:

1. A lot of military technology doesn't get tested in warlike situations or complex terrain and when the technology is put into 'war-like' operations or complex terrain it doesn't live up to its hype. Bureaucracy also plays a part in slowing down projects and making them unrealistic.

2. Hyping the machine. This is what military officers and the contractors do. They hype up the technology to whole new bullshitting levels. The officers do it for their promotions and careers and the contractors do it for the money.

The terminator scenario won't happen for a very very long time.

Re:Dumbest move ever

[X.25]

One problem though. N. Korea is not democratic. So the power of the entire country and it's militery might is in the hands of a few people.

I always wanted to understand something.

What is the difference of N. Korean people not wanting military to be used against S. Korea (for example), and Spanish /British/Italian/etc. people not wanting military used against Iraq (for example)? Get real, in democracy is military also in control of few people. You don't put top generals in place if they're not "your men". Anywhere.

What does democracy have to do with it, when in democracy it all takes one prime minister to decide military goes to Iraq - and thing is done.

Life on the DMZ

[Infonaut]

The point is, that this would take soldiers (some of them American, as we have promised to protect S. Korea, and have troops stationed there.) out of harms way.

Agreed. Perhaps many Slashdot readers don't really understand what the DMZ is like. In the 1980s and 90s, live ambushes were a fact of life along the DMZ (they may still be, but I'm no longer in the Army so I don't have inside info about it). The North Koreans for decades have poked and prodded the border: They've sent infiltrators into South Korea, have created elaborate tunnel systems below the DMZ, and attempted to assassinate the South Korean president, among other provocations. Troops stationed along the DMZ for good reason keep an extraordinarily high state of readiness. Over 100 Americans have died along the DMZ since the armstice (I don't have figures for South Korean soldiers).

So while from the comfort of Ft. Livingroom, it's easy to say that using armed robots to patrol the DMZ is a bad idea, the soldiers on the ground are probably pretty happy about the notion. That's not to say that the robots will work as advertised, or that they should replace existing defenses. The South Korean government may be motivated by cost considerations, but if the end result is that fewer South Korean soldiers are likely to die in the line of duty, it seems worth trying out some form of automated defense.

Not entirely true

[xswl0931]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_bombings_of_Hi roshima_and_Nagasaki Others contend that Japan had been trying to surrender for at least two months, but the US refused by insisting on an unconditional surrender--which they did not get even after the bombing, the bone of contention being retention of the Emperor.[13] (http://www.nuclearfiles.org/hitimeline/1945.html) In fact, while several diplomats favored surrender, the leaders of the Japanese military were committed to fighting a 'Decisive Battle' on Kyushu, hoping that they could negotiate better terms for an armistice afterward--all of which the Americans knew from reading decrypted Japanese communications. The Japanese government never did decide what terms, beyond preservation of an imperial system, they would have accepted to end the war; as late as August 9, the Supreme Council was still split, with the hardliners insisting Japan should demobilize its own forces, no war crimes trials, and no occupation. Only the direct intervention of the Emperor ended the dispute, and even after that a military coup was attempted to prevent the surrender (although it was easily suppressed).