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Bluetooth on an Airplane?
bblazer asks: "Since I travel quite a lot, I am very familiar with the warnings about cell phone use on an airplane (could be bunk, but I still respect it and those around me). But what about using Bluetooth? I just got off an Alaska Airlines flight where the flight attendant said that we were not permitted to use any device that sends or receives a radio signal. I often use the bluetooth features of my PowerBook and Treo while onboard a plane (you can have the Treo on without having the cell phone on), or I set up a mini-network with others I may be traveling with. Could Bluetooth cause any problems, or is this something I need not worry about?"
...Less than 32 feet away from critical in-flight avionics?
"Flyin' in just a sweet place,
Never been known to fail..."
Turn it on and see if you encounter "turbulence" ;)
Mayby all WiFi enabled laptops should be banned.
Only older laptops should be allowed.
if
Personally I wouldn't use it. And if I was on a plan with you, and you were using it, I'd report you. Yes the odds of it causing the aircraft to crash are small, but do you really want to take that chance?
Anything that transmits has a chance of interferring with the signals the plane's navigation equipment receive. As the quality of a lot of consumer electronics isn't very high, the possibility that some unit may be broadcasting some horrendous noise on an off frequency is realistic.
Last of all, with these new fly by wire aircraft (and one company in particular has had major mishaps because thier code stinks), do you really want to do anything that might introduce a spurious signal into a system that can't deal with it?
I'd sure rather not.
(PS I used to test aircraft systems for a major aerospace company, my observations here are based on real life work experiences).
...simply won't take down an airplane. Even if you're in first class right behind the cockpit. I've had a wireless scanner agressively scanning in the background for a number of hours before I realized it was actually doing it and never ONCE did a pilot, flight attendant ever come on the PA, or heard chatter when the cockpit door was open.
Hell, I've even used my cell phone (with headset) to check voicemail. The things simply do not interfere with flight information systems etc.
It took me by surprise, but everything from a JetBlue flight to a jumbojet, anything by delta or the like have no problems. I'm not sure why they say such things.
They say it will interfere, but then again they're using industry grade devices that state by the FCC that it has to accept interference, even unintended or otherwise and blah blah blah. Everyone's read the warnings, they're just being overly cautious in my opinion. It simply won't take out a plane, no matter how hard they may argue.
And my roommate is a pilot, so argue with him. He says they "could", but there's that plausible factor that scares people into submission. But once again, IT WILL NOT TAKE OUT AN AIRPLANE SYSTEM!
~z
Average member of Slashdot crowd isn't fully proficient in commenting flight safety. Your local air line representative is. So why don't you pick up your phone and make a call and have your question answered in no less than 30 seconds by a professional?
Here's a 2002 article from Mobile Review that discusses that studies regarding cell phones and avionics. And they are seriously considering permitting cell phone and wifi usage in flight, as indicated by this article from December.
They used to say this alot for portable CD players too, though I doubt the average discman would output more RF noise than a walkman or other audio device.
Also AFAIK (dredging through my old basic electronics training and sometimes dodgy memory) RF interferance needs to be at the same or a harmonic of the broadcast frequency to generate problems.
This last part is only things I have heard, and isn't verified truth, however I have been told that the reason they don't like you using mobile phones in aircraft is less about affecting instumentation, and more about the signal "footprint" you leave on the ground as your phone tries to access the nearest phone tower. This apparantly ties up channels on multiple towers. Do take this with a grain of salt however, as I am unable to verify it as fact.
ever seen someone use a laptop ?
e ct?tag=zot tmann-20&path=tg/detail/-/0679446486%3Fv%3Dglance
3 93 324508/qid=1113949540/sr=1-3/ref=sr_1_3/104-029408 5-4492736?v=glance&s=books
these things are EMF monsters
compared this to bluetooth which is pretty low grade and moves freq's
ok look at what airlines do... switch everthing off at takeoff and landing
thats the time to switch off otherwise if they let you use a laptop then just use it...
personally use the time for downtime and read somthing good like
lookup the book airframe
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redir
or
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0
get over it fly qantas they dont crash...
regards
John Jones
I'm on an airplane right now, over the Atlantic. Sure, THE MAN doesn't want you to turn on your devices because he thinks they will interfere with flight electronics, but you know better right?
In fact I think I'll turn on my PDA and hook it up with my powerbook via bluetooth right now, just to show them how it's done.
There, see? I'm still here! Still humming along! Plane didn't fall out of the sky!
Y'know, I don't remember the ocean being so
There is no FAA restriction on the use of any electronics in flight. It is totally up to the pilot/flight crew. A pilot flying a private 747 owned by a sports team for example can freely allow use of any electronics at any time.
There are specific restrictions imposed by the FCC depending on the band in use, such as cell phones, and that is on it's way out.
Unless the FCC has applied restrictions to the band - you can freely use whatever you want subject to the requirements of the flight crew.
Now, that's not to say any pilot is going to approve - in the world of lawyers, it's far easier to say no than to take any risk, even if it's practically nonexistent. Think about it - the first accident that occurs after a pilot allows it - it's going to get blamed, even it it has nothing to do with the real reason for the event.
it is my understanding that there are two issues with cellphones and transmitters on commercial airplanes - neither of which were issues with military arcraft when I was on active duty (the 1990s).
Issue one is that airplanes move through cells too fast for most cellphones to deal with it, and that causes them to ramp up their RF signal strength and the frequency of their outbound conenction traffic in an attempt to maintain a conenction to the network. (cell phones weren't allowed on transports but our UHF, SHF, and VHF radios worked fine)
Issue two is that avionics packages are not always shielded to spec in older airframes and there is the outside chance that 'something' could go wrong. (just like the outside chance that 'something' could go wrong at the gas pump) (military airframes are emissions shielded by guys who make the tinfoil hat brigade look sane)
The technical problems are exaserbated by the social problems - namely that there isn't a lot of significant science on the validity of the fears, that there are issues of profit to be had by airlines for 'owning' connectivity onto and off of a plane in flight, and that the technology landscape is a too fluid for the legislative response to be valid. Add to this the blanket of "security" as a catch all excuse for anything feasable but hard, and you begin to get a real picture of the situation that results in the "no transmitters" rule.
The bottom line is that, while there may be no compelling technical reason to ban transmitters (my opinion) no one wants to be responsible for making the call and then have an NTSB report come back naming cell phones as the cause of a airline crash.
Until that changes, it is illegal, just like replicating digital instances of copyrighted material, carrying a disposable lighter or wooden matches through security, making jokes about something being "da bomb", asking to see the regulations on presenting ID at the gate, or telling your less geeky pal how to defeat the ROT-13 encryption on his e-book.
Turn off your wifi and bluetooth before you get on the plane.
As I said earlier, I used to work on the systems that are in use today. I am an industry expert. Yes the odds are against you causing a problem.
But it CAN happen.
The worst place for it to happen is when you're in the weather, flying on instruments, and the plane already has some kind of problem. Then you're going to crash and die. Or burn to death in the wreckage.
You can quote your own ancedotal evidence, but again, I used to test those systems for a living. I'd rather not put a million to one chance against the lives of a plane full of people, or myself.
It has nothing to do with "interference" with the electronic systems on the plane. Rather it's a social engineering trick. You see, when you're at 10,000 feet all the mobiles are out of reception range. So any calls or SMS are temporarily diverted to voicemail or messagebank. When the plane lands, suddenly every phone is in reception and all the stored voicemails and SMS flood through to every mobile on the plane. Simultaneously every mobile starts that stupid BEEP BEEP BEEP noise that lets you know about your stored messages. Imagine 700 mobiles all going BEEP BEEP BEEP in unison! It's enough to drive you mad. The flight attendants got pissed off at the noise and cleverly invented this cock and bull story about "interference". Now the mobiles are turned off until you reach the baggage claim area where everybody turns on their mobile phones and annoys the baggage claim attendants instead. You see, the flight attendants have this secret war going on with the hated baggage claim attendants; you and your mobile phones are merely pawns in their devious mind games. Muahahaha.
So you're in the air. The pilot comes on and tells everyone to put the air mask on and brace for impact. Do you really want to find out at that point that, YES this crash was your fault, or Possibly that this crash was your fault. When I'm in the air I read a news paper.
I've been talking to my dad about this (who's degree is in electrical engineering but has worked for 20+ years as a commercial airline pilot) and he says that there is no documented situation, ever, where a cell phone has caused unsafe interference with the navigation equipment onboard the plane. The interference that these devices cause is an interference with signals that are already coming from outside the craft, there is no possibility of creating such a garbage signal that it would cause the plane to crash or otherwise malfunction. If this were the case then it would be quite easy for someone to dupe the navigation signals from the ground and incite some sort of catastrophe onboard, there are many failsafes in place to keep this from happening.
As Toby on The West Wing put it, "This aircraft rolled off the production line 18 months ago, and you're telling me I can flummox it with a gadget I bought at RadioShack?"
It isn't just transmitters. Back in the stone age of commercial aviation, they discovered that local oscillator radiation from super-heterodyne radio receivers was capable of jamming navigation receivers. Just tune your FM radio to a frequency that is 10.7 MHz less than the active VOR.
Mea navis aericumbens anguillis abundat
...take this into consideration. :-)
IRC: Grounded0 @ IRCnet. "I was lucky get into computers when it was very young & idealistic industry" -Steve Jobs
I don't know about you, but I was on a flight out of Singapore once...
,blah, casual pilot chatter). Turn off all your cellphones for the duration of the flight, please."
Casual Pilot: "Good evening everyone, we're ready to taxi, estimated flight time to Sydney is 8 hours, (blah
Plane begins to taxi.
Plane abruptly stops taxiing.
Grumpy Pilot: "Whoever's using their cellphone, please turn it *off*. Crew, search the cabin."
After a pause of a few minutes, Plane begins taxiing again.
So, hell, maybe they've got a few blinkenlights that blink when someone's got the phone on. As for bluetooth, yes, the power is miniscule. But as a pilot, you'd be pissed off if the plane you're flying lost some crucial function, because of eg. an overload of some very sensitive preamp that happens to be in the roof just above some passenger using bluetooth.
So, I think they (and I!) would rather just leave the unknown variables out of the whole flying equation as much as possible, thanks very much.
You are in a twisty maze of processor lines, all alike.
There is a lot of hype here.
So why are you asking us NOW? You could have crashed long ago!
Argue any conspiracy theory you like, whether financial or otherwise, but rest well assured that the device prohibition is NOT about interference.
$0.02,
ptd
I'm an animal lover -- they're delicious!
If the FLight crew tells you it cannot be used it is a finable offence to use it. I believe it can be up to $25,000.
still sure you want to use it despite what the flight crew says?
Dear /. readers.
I'm an FAA certificated private pilot of several years. I work in the aviation industry and have had some interesting experiences with this exact issue.
I do not know that, or pretend to know that operating any RF devices will "crash" an aircraft.
I DO know that even leaving a cell phone on during flight can interfere with avionics and communications. This is from real experience - and it was *very* distracting.
Here's the story: Flying closed traffic touch & goes at Oakland International Airport, my instructor (CFII) and I were both hearing a loud static noise at two places in the pattern. This was pretty darn distracting to say the least. Here we are, doing proficiency drills (landings / pattern / emergency landing without power, etc) and there's a darn buzzer in our ear shortly after takeoff and at midfield. What was it? I had left my cellphone on accidentally and buried deep in my flight bag. It was soo annoying that I asked my instructor to fly the plane while I akwardly tried to twist around the seat of the C172 and find the cell, and only was able to after several painful moments - but it was worth it for how annoying the buzzing was.
Now, this was a Day VFR (visual flight rules) flight under nearly ideal conditions. Most major aviation accidents that occur have some level of human factors that play into the incident. Further, the NTSB establishes a "chain of events" that leads up to the accident - any one of which being broken would likely have prevented the accident.
Let me ask you this. You are cruising at night in IFR conditions (in the clouds, no horizon) 30,000 feet in a commercial aircraft and the pilot loses his artificial horizon. Immediately, the pilot informs the copilot and the copilot starts flying the aircraft on his 'good' instrument. You land safely. This exact scenario was one of the more recent fatal airliner accidents in Asia, except that the pilot was distracted and did not properly give control to the copilot.
Do you want the pilot of your aircraft to be distracted by frequent buzzing in his/her headset? Aircraft these days have the capability of flying and landing themselves. Pilots are largely there for two reasons (IMHO). One of these is to re-assure the public. The other, perhaps more valid, is to deal with emergency situations. Please - don't mess with them, once the autopilot is disabled/off, they're your only chance.
Since I drive quite a lot, I am very familiar with the warnings about drinking while driving (could be bunk, but I still respect it and those around me). But what about using LSD? A police officer just told me that I'm not supposed to use any recreational drugs while driving. I often take LSD while driving my car. Could this cause any problems, or is this something I need not worry about?
Ok, maybe I'm taking a few liberties in rewriting the question, but in all seriousness... you are required by law to obey instructions given by aircraft personnel concerning what equipment you can use while on the plane. The fact that they warn you about drinking (using your cell phone) more than they do about taking LSD (using bluetooth) doesn't mean that one is any more legal than the other, or any less stupid than the other.
Tarsnap: Online backups for the truly paranoid
It wasn't so long ago that the airlines banned PDA-cellphone combinations such as the Treo. Now, many airlines including AA, Southwest and JetBlue allow you to use your Treo if you can show the flight attendant that the wireless feature is turned off (see, e.g., the back pages of American Way magazine). All it would take is one ***hole to be found interfering, say, with the intracabin communications system used by the Federal Air Marshals to have the policy revoked, and then I wouldn't be able to read ebooks or AvantGo on airplanes anymore. Thanks a lot.
Have you ever played with those science exhibits where two parabolic reflectors are seperated by a large distance in a room? You talk towards one, and someone at the other reflector can hear you clearly while others between you cannot.
Have you ever driven a car that, at a certain speed or on a certian road, the car got *very* loud, and all you had to do was speed up or slow down to dampen the noise?
The first example has to do with reflection. The second has to do with resonance.
In a flying tin can you cannot possibly know where the reflections and resonance will occur. You do not know what equipment may or may not be affected by your transmissions.
While holding your cell phone next to an avionics box may have no effect, sitting in seat J23 with the cellphone in your pocket as it broadcasts at maximum power (because, see, you're in a tin can) may be just the spot to form a nice reflection which, coupled with a resonance, would put a very strong signal right at the wrong spot of an important piece of equipment.
Your blue tooth has the same problem, though the frequencies are difference, and the power *should* be less. This doesn't actually make it any less dangerous, however.
The plane you are riding in is likely very old. The equipment can easily be more than 20 years old, and if the equipment itself isn't, the design is.
The long and short of it is: Planes are a bad place to use equipment that intentionally radiates (ie, transmits). They aren't so great for devices that unintentionaly radiate either.
While "testing" does take place there is no way to ensure that everything will operate properly in real conditions - only a complete design analysis could come close to providing that information.
-Adam
In all seriousness, aren't the aircraft manufacturers more than a bit negligent for not building avionics etc in ways that shield them from unwanted RF?
If every airliner has a couple hundred cel phones on it, and if in all likelihood at least couple will not be turned off, should airlines really be working to design the passenger compartment to keep that RF inside?
Or, if you're a passenger, wouldn't you prefer to know that the plane had been designed to keep cel radiation from interfering? As it stands now you have to trust that bubba two rows back is technically advanced enough to remember to turn of his mobile.
Three Squirrels
is rather simple!
The cell phone towers broadcast a signal perpendicular to the tower. While some of the signal goes up, most of it just goes straight towards the horizon. Under ideal circumstances, if you were directly above the cell tower, you wouldn't get a signal. If you're 5 miles above a tower in an airplane (which is almost a Faraday cage), you probably wouldn't get a signal.
If I drive fast enough at the red light, it'll appear green.
(puts on tinfoil hat) :-)
What an awsome application of social engineering to get everyone to turn their phones off
I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
Considering some flights offer Internet access using 802.11b/g it seems the flight companies acknowledge it to be safe. Bluetooth is using the same frequencies (the ISM bands) as 802.11b/g, but at lower power. If the flight companies allow 802.11b/g, there really shouldn't be any problem with Bluetooth.
But what do I know (IANAAirplane technician), maybe they have given the airplanes that allow 802.11b/b some special treatment? I find that unlikely though.
It's pretty simple. If you get on a commercial aircraft, you're implicitely agreeing to whatever rules they tell you. So don't be a schmuck and do what you promised to do. Don't turn on your cell phone. Don't use your laptop, game boy, whatever until after you're in the air for 10 minutes.
You agreed to it, so do what you agreed to do.
Second guessing them doesn't get you anywhere, it's just being shitty.
By the way, the AOPA right now is working to get cell phone use from the air approved. If that's done then you'll probably be allowed to use your cell phone. Until then, keep it and your bluetooth and anything else that has a transmit function off.
1. 2.
I doesn't really matter whether its a risk or not - the fact remains that failure to follow the directions of the airline crew is a federal offence.
"When I grow up, I want to be a weirdo"
I wondered this the other day when I caught a flight with my new Nokia 9500. It has built in WLAN and Bluetooth.
Turning off the phone leaves the SymbianOS running inside the phone, and it can be used like a PDA. If you have WLAN or Bluetooth on, even though you have the phone part turned off, it continually scans.
I turned them both off, because I thought of it. Though I bet it does very little on a large commercial aircraft, otherwise they would have problems with people NOT turning off the WiFi on their phones.
i hate pansy republicans
I tried calling but the call was outsourced to India and I could not understand the customer service representative. But on the upside I was able to provide him with all my credit card and banking information so I know I will be safe flying.
Quality Hosting e3 Servers
In 1993, the FAA published an Advisory Circular (AC) 91.21-1 that recommended PEDs be prohibited during takeoff and landing below 10,000 feet, but there is no actual regulation to this effect.
Regarding the original poster's question, you need to ask your airline for permission to use it (bluetooth). The FAA regs place the burden on the airline to make the call as to whether or not a device is safe.
"Avoid employing unlucky people - throw half of the pile of CVs in the bin without reading them." -- David Brent
What a bunch of crap. I mean serieously. I don't care if you are an electrical engineer with 20+ years of pilots experience, or a super tester avionics tester at NASA, because obviously you don't know shit. (with 'you' I mean everybody that thinks it could interfere or the like).
/. in the first place : ).
More informed slashdot readers should remember these articles.
Yes Wifi on airplanes is a reality allready, and experiments with bluetooth and GSM are on the way aswell. (Actually that article was 'pre' lufthansa's wireless service).
So seriously, lay of the crack, because obiviously it doens't do you any good.
P.S. Whoever felt offended by this post should have read
FWIW, in the UK the warning given is any device that transmits or receives data should remain off for the duration of the flight.
:)
i.e. anything with RF circuitry should stay off
Which is an interesting point - most computers give off low level signals at the bus frequency of the motherboard. Does that count as RF circuitry?
Since virtually every laptop carried by a airline traveller has a wireless card, and I'm sure virtually every one of those has the wireless enabled by default, doesn't this mean there is plenty of wireless traffic inflight from people turning on and using their computers?
makes sense to me. That's how radar-detector-detectors work. An RF receiver is a tuned harmonic oscillator after all.
Did you mount a military-grade, variable-focus MASER on an unlicensed artificial intelligence?
Really this is mostly BS. Any well designed system will have shielding and be fairly secured from interference. One of the real reasons this ban (and the existing bans in hospitals) was created was so they could charge you outrageous prices for using their in-flight phone services.
If the problem was really that serious the FAA wouldn't be considering lifting the ban on cell phones in planes. I know that cell phones can put out tons of interference but most of the interference is in the short range (under maybe 10 ft or so). Also you industry people, you sound like a bunch of broken records, get off your high horses. You really don't know as much as you'd like to think you do.
"Some days you just can't get rid of a bomb."
They asked you not to use RF-transmitting devices on the plane. So why do you ignore them?
Oh wait. You probably also ignore that big red octagon with the letters "STOP" written on it while you drive.
Or, if you bike, you probably ignore traffic signals, stop signs, and every other rule that ALL vehicles are supposed to follow.
Maybe you eat lunch on the public transit right under the sign that says "PLEASE DO NOT EAT WHILE ON THE TRAIN" (substitute bus, etc.).
20 in a school zone? F that!
Granted, some rules are just flat-out stupid (most have damn good reasons for existing, like school zones), but when you are making use of someone's service, you are in a social contract to obey their rules. That includes not transmitting RF on the plane, whether or not it affects the avionics.
"Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives" should be a convenience store, not a government agency.
Ok, so for us where it is legal, it's fine ?
#include "coucou.h"
Bleh, can't remember my password, so i'm anonymous for now.
YOU CRAZY FOOL!!!
Ahem.
1) Get a mobile
2) Get a TV
3) Turn on the TV
4) Place the phone near a speaker on the tv, and dial out
You hear that awful buzzing sound?
It's caused by the phone creating an electromagnetic field in the wires leading up to speaker. A current is induced, and the speaker begins to vibrate.
Now lets assume that you are on an aeroplane, and instead of being the wire for a speaker, its, say, the radar. All of a sudden, the pilot is flying blind.
If you want further examples of magnetic interferance, get the phone and place it *under* the tv and dial out. look at all the lines that appear on the screen.
BTW, ham radio, walkie talkies etc. shouldn't affect aircraft systems, as they operate on the low-frequency RF band. Low frequency waves are penetrating, and produce little or no magnetic field.
Mobile phones, bluetooth, 802.11, gprs data cards, and, crucially, radar, all operate on the same band, microwave (which is powerful enough for EM induction, see above experiments for proof).
As a final note, could you post your name, home state, and frequently travelled routes, so I know when not to travel?
Think - Logic, with all the hype about terrorism on airplanes - do you really think they would have high tech devices that can be interupted by cell phones? That means that all any al queda member needs is a ticket and a cell phone - It can't be that simple
"I just got off an Alaska Airlines flight where the flight attendant said that we were not permitted to use any device that sends or receives a radio signal" is there any ambiguity there? and you go right ahead and set up a wireless LAN in flight? ass.
The study, carried out in a laboratory, indicated [section 6.2]that cellphones can cause interference to VOR and ILS indicators and background noise to audio channels.
Whilst section 6.2 does point out that the interference caused problems when the cellphone was very close to the equipment or wiring harness, its not inconceivable that someone using a cellphone on an airliner could be in relatively close proximity to a piece of equiment or more likely, a wiring harness.
There's a lot of comments from people here about what bullshit the whole thing is. Well just remember this - you're in a aluminum tube flying at 500mph at 35,000 feet. It's a two engine airliner and one engine has just failed. The pilots need to divert, and the weather at all the divert airfields is marginal. They will need all of their navigation and comms equipment to land safely...and then some idiot switches on their phone...
This is possibly being posted too late to be moderated but the back of the British Airways inflight magazines say Mobile phones are not allowed but Bluetooth is. The example they use is a bluetooth mouse being allowed. As with all electronics (on BA) they don't allow you to use during take off and landing
Stu.