Ditching Microsoft Could Save Education Millions

ElvenMonkey writes "The Times Education Supplement has published the results of a BECTA (British Educational Communications and Technology Association, the Government's ICT agency) study, to be published next week, into the TCO of using Microsoft products compared to using Open Source products. The report shows an average saving of 24% per computer in schools using Open Source over those using Microsoft systems. Now if only the government wasn't insistent on locking schools into using Microsoft in arguably illegal ways."

Comments

wow.

[PopeAlien]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the computers.

Re:wow.

[peculiarmethod]

yeah, no joke.. get rid of the computers and learn the hard way! I was raised without computers until late in highschool, and look at me! I mean, I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

nevermind.. keep the computers.

Re:wow.

[hsmith]

Agree 100%. When i was in school we only had a handful of them. We used them when it was necessary.

Now look at me, I am a software engineer, I think they are the biggest waste of money within a school, they are "super machines" that people think will make teaching go so much better.

Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

Re:wow.

[Reaperducer]

Think how much they would save if they just got rid of the computers.

It's too bad we can't experiment on children the way we do with lab rats. I'd like to see two nearly identical student bodies -- one with computers, and one without -- and see which really gets further in life. Since the invention of the blackboard, elementary and high school educators have always clamored for the latest gadgets, and sulked when they don't get it. I sometimes wonder if they get more than they need, especially when I see high schools with broadcast radio and cable TV stations. Maybe I'm just getting old.

Re:wow.

[wankledot]

This comment made me laugh, then I realized you might not be joking and i was very, very sad.

Re:wow.

[Excelsior]

yeah, no joke.. get rid of the computers and learn the hard way! I was raised without computers until late in highschool, and look at me! I mean, I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

At least it paid off in your grammar, spelling, capitalization, and punctuation skills.

Re:wow.

[Anonymous Coward]

There have been an unusually large number of anti-Microsoft articles in the press lately, and I think the pro-MS groupthink is seriously starting to crack. At Slashdot, where there usually are several people trying to defend Microsoft, there are almost none. Even the ones at the recent OO.org discussion are basically admitting to a plight of lock-in, fueled by Visual Basic and the closed Office file formats.

Microsoft is steadily being walled-off by their competitors. Solaris and Linux are both world-class operating systems that are available at zero-cost. Operating systems are mature technology, while still evolving, are systems that no one wants to see as a major line item on the expense sheets anymore. Thus, Windows is slowly but steadily becoming obselete, both as a technology and as a business platform.

There is also growing frustration at Microsoft Office imprisoning peoples' data. Why should data be readable by only one corporation's technology? OASIS is the natural answer to this, and, with the millions of people already using OO.org, standardization will only drive adoption further. As with Windows, Office is being rendered obselete.

With the majority of Microsoft's revenue stream built on sand, essentially, and more people recognizing this, it is inevitable that the markets will transition back to an open-systems model. Only, now, instead of expensive UNIX, it's free UNIX and Linux backed by the hardware manufacturers that started it all.

This is a very interesting time in the software industry, and we are witnessing history in the making.

Re:wow.

[jmorris42]

> Give the money to the teachers to higher a better staff, THEN you will
> have more well informed children. God if they paid $60K+ starting to
> teach, think of the people they could have instructing.

If the same 'teaching establishment' were in charge nothing would change except pissing away a lot of money to the same semi-literate hacks we have now.

Education won't improve until the unions are broken so the incompetents with tenure can be sacked and people with a Phd in Math can teach without spending four more years learning how to 'teach.' (read jumping the artificial hurdle the unions use to keep their incompetents from competing with those with skill and motivation.)

Education still won't change until the massive overhead is slashed. Preferably by privitizing the schools because so long as they are government run they must be political instituitions. Not that private universities aren't also infested with PC bullcrap but there ARE private instituitions of higher learning out there that actually teach if one is motivated to search them out. WIth a virtual government run monopoly on primary and secondary education that isn't nearly as easy. Unless you are a rich Democrat congressman. (cheap shot)

Re:wow.

[Bert64]

But school computers are often setup in the most restrictive way the school staff could manage, and the holes in their security are furthur enforced by punishments if your caught breaching it.. The restrictive environments don't encourage learning about the guts of the machine atall, they may teach you the bare minimum of how to operate the exact word processing configuration present on the machines. People learn parrot-fashion how to use (not find) the options theyre told they need.
Me, i was banned from the school computer lab for breaking through their restrictions and accessing a dos prompt, now i'm paid pretty good money as a security consultant doing penetration-testing where i'm SUPPOSED to break security.

Re:wow.

[ChuyMatt]

Paying teachers would do a GREAT deal to make the teaching establishment better. Smarter people would actually make it a goal to teach and improve our society. The "simi-literate" people would be forced out in favor of more competent people.

You have never had a "genius" teach your class without the understanding that we are paying to be given insight into the material. If the book they choose is incomprehensible and they can not communicate, what use are they as teachers. That is what they are paid for, to TEACH! Most of the PhDs I know who teach math feel it a chore to "stoop" to the level of the people they are working for. Yes, they are as pompous as you seem. Another reason for tenure to be able to be broken.

BTW, as someone who has several friends working in private secondary schools, please understand that it is mostly the fault of the crap administrators that are produced and programs like "all-children-held-behind".

Re:wow.

[dsci]

FWIW, I know quite a few elementary teachers who are no longer teaching because of POLITICS and BAD DECISION MAKING. None of these got out due to low pay.

Once at a party, a group of teachers who had left teaching were asked by someone of your mindset (ie, increasing the pay of teachers would "help") and they all said, each and every one, that the pay had nothing whatsoever to do with why they were leaving.

I know several PhD level scientists who have left teaching for precisely the same reason. I myself (PhD, Chemistry) would consider teaching high school, but not with the current state of politics in the school boards (and the union). Money has nothing to do with it.

In my opinion, your thesis that higher pay would attract 'better' teachers is a guess at best. Teachers salaries DO increase, but the quality remains low. Especially in science and math. Many professionals in educations are starting to figure this out, and money really is not the issue.

My two cents (taught at two universities, one college and one tech college, physics and chemistry).

Re:wow.

[walt-sjc]

Yep. And one possible answer is LTSP. Cheap, thin clients. No local drives at all (maybe non-booting, automounted noexec,nosuid,nodev USB access for keyfob drives.) I've even seen netboot systems that re-image a small local drive each time they power up. Keyboards and mice are cheap to replace if needed. Kids don't need CD or floppy access. Lock em down hard. Use extended ACL's and capabilities. Monitored proxies for all external access.

If kids want toys, they can play at home - not school. When you are at school, you are on Mr. Taxpayer's computer and do NOT have the right to go in and screw with the system. Put video cameras in the labs and force the parents to pay for any damage their kids do.

Libraries too

[XanC]

I hope libraries take note of this as well as schools... If libraries aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?

This is the insidious thing about Bill's Foundation. Libraries get placed on the MS upgrade cycle, hooked by the initial free-ness. Then try doing anything with your machines without spending a whole lot of money...

Re:Libraries too

[cascadefx]

That's why organizations/resources like Linux in Libraries exist. They are working for putting Linux in public spaces. There are a number of cool projects that this group has pointed me to including Koha, an open source library system and implementers of open source library solutions like LibLime. Check them out.

Re:Libraries too

[jmorris42]

> I hope libraries take note of this as well as schools... If libraries
> aren't the standard-bearer for interoperable Web sites, document
> formats, and any other kind of information exchange, who will be?

Well our library was more than happy to accept Bill & Melinda's generous contributions. For the time the hardware was pretty solid midrange and ran our Linux based patron model quite nicely. And even though the software licenses were a joke (locked to both the hardware AND the library but counted as a donation of a full copy) we still ran it on select workstations via VMWare for those who needed more Office compatibility than the Linux solutions offered.

And the server they provided is still in service to this day. For several years it ran all of our world accessable Internet services including DNS, email web, ntp, etc. Now it still serves as a web proxy. Very nice little Gateway/ALR box.

So hurray for the Gates Library Foundation. We aren't rich and a big stack o' stuff won't be turned down at our back door. Yes I know they intended to lock people in, and did at a lot of sites across the state, but that is the fault of those who don't think things through. Besides those people would still be just as locked to Microsoft, they just wouldn't have as many workstations deployed.

Same ol problem of for most people they don't PICK Windows, they default to it without even pondering the question of whether or not there is even a choice to make.

And no, Apple doesn't count for large installs so STFU all Mac zealots. Anybody who hadn't installed patron PCs before Bill started tossing them off a truck certainly would never write the check for Macs. Besides, around here Macs are more rare than Linux boxes since the closest place to see one is a Sears about 50 miles away that puts one out from time to time but all of their salesmen tell you "not to buy that wierd thing corporate keeps sending out".

Re:Libraries too

[jmorris42]

> MS considers a VMWare install to be a different machine.

I know that is in their typical license crapola and if we also had it installed in a partition I might even listen to their arguments. But the donation license specified it had to be used only on the GLF hardware and only by our library's patrons. Both conditions were being met so any complaints would go to /dev/null unless they got really nasty and lawyered up at which point I'd bluntly ask them if they would like to turn the situation into a PR disaster.

Let em explain to a typical reporter that when we run Office on the donated PCs it wasn't actually running ON that PC, when they would plainly see Office running on said PC. But that we were now going to be forced to remove it because Microsoft was ungiving it to us because we used security software they didn't like. The one thing they (and every other closed source vendor) never want is a news story that might cause typical end users to start reading those EULAs to see if any of those hidden clauses might apply to them.

linux!

[derxob]

elementry schools should be using linux.. I would have had a blast back then playing super-tux instead of friggen oragon trail..

Not a scientific study

[Locke2005]

Perhaps the support costs as the schools using free software were lower because their staff was a lot smarter to begin with? ;-)

Re:Not a scientific study

[Otter]

In seriousness, I'm sure that's partly true -- schools that switch to open-source are obviously a non-random sample.

Nonetheless, I can believe these numbers. Libraries and elementary schools are no-brainers for using Linux and free software apps. Anyway, this is an improvement on the usual hypothetical TCO numbers pulled out of one side's ass or the other's.

Lobby your school district for K12LTSP!

[bardothodal]

You can save tons on licenses and expensive hardware. Also you can teach children how computers actually work instead of giving them what MS wants the PC to be ... a glorified VCR.

No!

[guitaristx]

You mean our schools might actually promote learning, sharing, innovation, and playing nice with others? Say it ain't so!

It's amazing to me how rarely we see "academic" software like Unix & Linux in our schools. I'm fortunate enough to be assisting in setting up a private school's computer network, all Linux, baby!

Re:No!

[Sporkinum]

'Rarely is the question asked: Is our children learning' - George W. Bush.

Gotta love The Register

[TripMaster Monkey]

The Register is such a timesaver for Slashdotters...it has the anti-M$ slant built in.

Re:Gotta love The Register

[TripMaster Monkey]

Actually, yes, I will.

Thanks for caring, though.

Not in Kansa (anymore)

[bstadil]

As an average person from Kansas, I object to using something that seems to be created out of nowhere.

God didn't create Microsoft Office to Futs in us unused.

Re:Not in Kansa (anymore)

[Locke2005]

There is a theory the Microsoft software was created by Intelligent Design, but so far scientists have not been able to find any evidence to support this theory.

Quality - naaaaa...

[wackymacs]

Maybe schools want to pay money for Microsoft's programs for every computer because they *think* the quality of it will be better than the open-source because it costs money, and you get what you pay for. Though this certainly isn't really the case.

Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source Today

[js7a]

Do you know who the superintendent(s) of your local public school board are? Those are the people who are responsible for the continued economic vitality of your community, so if you don't know, find out today, and ask them to stop paying the Microsoft tax. Windows and Office are anachronisms, the rulers of the 80s and 90s, which have through base greed lost any claim to a place in today's classroom.

Do you have it within you to write a clear, three-paragraph letter to the chair of a school board today? Please prove it, by posting its text in reply to this comment.

The challenge is made; who among you are human enough to meet it?

School's Motive

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wondered why schools don't use Linux. If kids start with it, they would all be able to embrace technology to the fullest extent, where in Windows, all you get is annoying paperclips, error messages, and EVERYTHING spoon-fed to you so it's as bland as possible.

What's the difference?

[bechthros]

"Now if only the government wasn't insistent on locking schools into using Microsoft in arguably illegal ways."

So it was OK for my city's entire public school system and library system to lock me into using Apples all the way up until my senior year, but it's not OK to lock people into using Windows? Apple has long been known for educational discounts in exchange for school systems agreeing to use Apple exclusively and pressure their students into buying them. It happened to many friends of mine and almost happened to me.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not the president of the MS fan club or anything, but I gotta say it was really really annoying having to be programming in nothing but BASIC on IIgs's in 1991. I was overjoyed when our school was the chosen pilot for the PC program - I learned a lot more about computers a lot more quickly.

That said, locking students into any one system is bad. I say, have a Mac, a Winbox, and linux box all running side by side and let the students decide which one they want to use. Let them, to coin a phrase, compete in the marketplace of ideas. Isn't competition the American way?

Re:What's the difference?

[j1mmy]

1. the article is dealing with the united kingdom
2. students aren't paying for the computers, e.g., no market
3. regardless of whether you're using a windows, mac, or linux machine today, there's an enormous amount of free software available for all those platforms. today's students certainly aren't stuck developing in basic like they were 15 years ago.

Re:What's the difference?

[3nuff]

Speaking as someone who started learning how to program on an Apple II at age 12, then moving to Mac OS, then to WinTel at 16, and arriving at Linux in my 20s, I can say that it doesn't really matter what is in front of the student.

What matters are the fundamentals that we are teaching. As an example, my sixth grade teacher would spend time after school with me helping me debug BASIC programs on the ol Apple II. What my teacher did was set the stage for me to grasp fundamental logic concepts. This knowledge allowed me to move freely in the computing world. That type of knowledge transcends making the font bold or creating that powerpoint slide. This is what the computer should be used for, not some silly test of which button to push, hell, you can tech mice that kind of crap.

Re:What's the difference?

[killjoe]

Locking people to Macs? Bad.
Locking people to MS? Bad

Locking people to Linux? Good!.

Students should learn on linux. They can really get to the guts to learn how computers work. They can even make contributions if they want. Finally you are not whoring your students to some company.

Re:What's the difference?

[FuzzieNorn]

A national goverment policy locking schools into buying from a single company if they want funding is quite different from a group of schools deciding independently from the national government which machines to purchase, to be fair.

not really clear

[moz25]

While I certainly agree with the sentiment of the news article, isn't it a little premature to link to an article that only announces a real report. I am interested in the details and how they obtain the 24% mark. My estimate would be more in the 10% range.

Considering the earlier article regarding OpenOffice, it might make sense to calculate [expensive license] - free = savings. But where does that leave cheap academic licensing?

The Microsoft Mafia

[NatteringNabob]

At my son's school, there is a computer literacy test which students must pass to graduate. So what is the requirement for computer literacy? Writing a shell program? Creating a home page using HTML? Writing a business letter? No, of course not. The student must demonstrate that they know how to use Microsoft Word, Microsoft PowerPoint, and Microsoft Excel. I'm fairly certain that such a requirement would not hold up in court, but where did it come from in the first place?

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[Adelbert]

I've just done a national (albeit non-compulsory) so-called "key skills" test here in the UK.

Far from being a school thing, this is a test for college students.

Easy enough, you might think. However, I ran into difficulties, finding I might not be able to pass, as I'd typed the files as a ".sxw" file, not a Word .doc.

Furthermore, there is a possibility in my upcoming A level computing exam, if I write an answer in Linux terminology rather than Windows I won't get the marks. Similarly, mark schemes have discriminated against those who write code in, say, Python instead of BASIC or Pascal.

I fully support schools converting to Linux, in whole or in part. However, the higher echelons of education need to adapt to catch up with these primary schools.

Re:The Microsoft Mafia

[g1zmo]

The exact same skills are required of all college graduates (at least here in Texas). At my school (from which I'm graduating next week!!), it's up to each department within the university how those requirements are met, but most departments just created a 1-credit-hour class that's required before you can graduate. In the CSE (my) department, it was lumped into a very generic "computer ethics" course that hardly no one goes to except to turn in their "lab assignments", which are things like creating a Word document, an Excel spreadsheet, PowerPoint presentation (!), etc.

Re:After graduation

[Anonymous Coward]

Can you use Excel? Yes - if you can use open office oocalc, you can easily use excel Can you use Word? Yes - if you can use open office oowrite, you can use word. Can you use Windows? Yes - but I can save your business money by helping you to convert to Linux and open source software. Sounds great! When can you start?

Oh sure now that's the case....

[i_want_you_to_throw_]

but as people get more and more accepting of OSS the more we'll see it. Who would've guessed 7 or 8 years ago that there would be an exodus of entire governments switching to OSS? Software is becoming a commodity in functionality. As an example Word became all anybody needed with Version 97. M$, as an ongoing business concern needs to keep selling upgraded software even if the new features are things you don't need. This isn't something that OSS suffers from. If it ever gets the bugs out completely Open Office is set to become much more important. After all why keep upgrading M$ stuff when you don't need to? (Munich anyone?)

If we ever see Google embrace Open Office and champion OSS then it could become a viable threat to M$, the likes of which M$ hasn't seen.

OSS has been making great inroads these last few years and sadly it is not going away as much as M$ would love to see happen. M$ just needs to learn the lesson that IBM did. As time goes by you have to evolve from a company that creates standards to one that contributes to them. The past is littered with the carnage of companies who did not learn this.

Not that M$ will ever go away.

Re:After graduation

[Spy der Mann]

Can you use Excel?
Who can't?
Can you program Excel macros?
Sure! (Just lemme download that tutorial at the web)
Can you use windows?
AND tweak it.

Welcome to our company. See you next monday at 9.

(See? That wasn't so hard, was it?)

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[bechthros]

"Windows and Office are anachronisms"

Dude, pass some of whatever you've been smoking this way. Like I said elsewhere, I'm far from the president of the MS fan club, but anybody who gets any low- to mid-level job anywhere is going to be sitting in front of a Winbox and needs to know how to use it. Sure, Linux would be great to teach to kids who know at age 10 they want to be developers or sysadmins, but the average person working the average job is *gonna* be on Windows. It's unfortunate, but it's the truth. I was a production support analyst and mainframe operator for a Fortune 500 company, and guess how we interfaced with the AS/400's and mainframe? Using a terminal program running on a windows XP box.

The fact of the matter is that people who are very familiar with Windows and Office - not love it, mind you, but know how to use it with some degree of expertise - have an advantage in the job market over people who don't. Sad but true.

Re:After graduation

[steveness]

Now our high school graduate applies for a job (with better interview skills)

Can you use Excel?
I can use several spreadsheet programs, and can even develop complex math functions.
Can you use Word?
I have experience with several word processing tools, and can help the company by ensuring that documents transfer well between programs.
Can you use Windows?
I have extensive experience with windows environments and graphical interfaces, and can even use a computer when those interfaces fail.

Thanks, can you start Monday?

Re:After graduation

[Nex6]

spreadsheet and word type programs are not so alien to each other as to not confer skillsets to transfer easiliy.

OpenOffice, Koffice. and crossover to run MS office.

whats important, is to learn how to use a computer, the how and whys. leanr the basics of what a spread is how it works and you will be able to use any spreadsheet quickly.

-Nex6

Skolelinux is the school linux distro...

[Compunerd]

Take a look at http://skolelinux.org/ to see what can be done to create an elemtary school distro. It's installation friendly, somehow userfriendly (KDE 2) and has nice setups for thin-client environments.

roy

How difficult is a word processor?

[Colin Smith]

Good god, would you really want to employ someone who was unable to transfer their knowledge of one application on to another of the same type?

Then there's the corollary, would you want to work for the kind of muppets who couldn't realise that the concepts are the same for all word processors, hell even the menu layouts are similar.

Reality check. People who are this dumb are going to get eaten alive in the globalised economy.

No kidding

[Gabey]

Not sure if you're being sarcastic or not, but this would be a tremendous move for schools. Having computers in the classroom is an enormous waste of resources -- teachers rarely know how to use them, students don't use them productively, they're a hassle to maintain (especially if you allow web browsing on them, regardless of the browser you use -- kids will be kids), they're a waste.
Computers belong in labs and specialized situations in schools (we had a pretty successful mac lab for a media production class at my high school, for instance), and rarely anywhere else. If it makes sense to use a computer for a lesson (typing up a paper, a research day, etc), the teacher can sign up for the lab (that is easily maintained, and can often be staffed by students).

Economics of Supply & Demand

[clinko]

Seems like the average economics student could figure out this is bullshit.

Supply of msft admins = high
Supply of non-msft admins = low

Replacing all msft admins with the low # of non-msft admins = high demand for a low amount of resources.

Which makes the non-msft admins outrageously expensive. Thus, negating the savings...

Seriously, where is the average school in po-dunk Mississippi going to find a quality non-msft admin cheaply when a drop-out could do msft administration?

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Colin Smith]

Seems like.

You missed out the quality of the admins and the numbers of problems which have to be solved per desktop etc etc.

I for example am quite expensive. I can on the other hand quite easily set up a system that supports hundreds, thousands of concurrent users and requires bugger all administration, on cheap commodity, even obsolete, hardware. A small amount of time from an expensive admin is cheap. A large amount of time from a cheap admin is expensive.

Re:Economics of Supply & Demand

[Bert64]

Because the drop-outs do a poor job, and end up with poorly running spyware/virus infested networks..
Sure, someone clueless *can* run a windows network, but they don't do a very good job of it.. Securing windows to the extent required to prevent the students and internet nasties making mincemeat of the network is actually MUCH HARDER than doing the same on a unix platform. You have to disable a lot of core functionality of the os because it's flawed and insecure, you have to heavily restrict apps like word because they have the ability to execute arbitrary programs via ole objects or macros etc - you dont want students running command prompts or arbitrary apps they downloaded..
Aside from that, as the demand for non-ms admins increases, so will the supply, as people will see it as a lucrative business to move into.

Re:After graduation

[man_of_mr_e]

Actually, if I were doing the interviewing, i'd ask them why they were evading the questions, and probably file it in the round filing cabinet for being dishonest.

Re:After graduation

[Chibi]

The thing to consider is that the HR departments at most companies act as the first level of filtering of resumes. So, they'll usually scan a resume for certain keywords. It's entirely possible that even though someone is a perfectly qualified candidate, they might not be able to pass this first level of filtering. It's not entirely logical, but that's unfortunately how most of the world works.

So, you might argue just put the MS products on your resume, even if you don't really "know" them. Well, then your resume is technically inaccurate, and this could get you into trouble (either any interviews will question your honesty, or you could be dismissed from your new job when it's discovered that you didn't know of a particular quirk in Excel '97).

Just giving a counterpoint. In general, I think it's much better for people to be flexible and quick learners, rather than mindless automatons. :)

And computers...

[Kjella]

I am single, a musician.. alcoholic.. addicted to porn and constantly refreshing slashd..

nevermind.. keep the computers.

Single: Yep, being a computer nerd is a great way not to be single.
Musician:
Alcoholic: After seeing the goatse.cx man, they will be.
Addicted to porn: There is no porn online. Really.
Slashdot: Nope, don't find that online either.

So yeah, let them keep the computers. At least that'll keep them from becoming musicians. Probably on EverCrack or something to keep them busy, but hey. They're saved from the worst of it, eh?

Kjella

academic software???

[big-giant-head]

Every corp I worked for in the last 12 years:

AVIS Rent a Car,
Red Sky Interactive (Dot Com failure so maybe they don't count?)
Mens Wearhouse
Hertz Rent A Car
FAA

All of the big app servers have been Solaris or Linux or AIX..... Granted they had windows desktops, windows servers for Peoplesoft, but all the Oracle/DB2, Java App server, Transaction management, Messanging etc.. Everything I actully wrote code on/for was some kind of *nix box.

So I keep hearing about the importantance of knowing Office etc.. I could see that it has some value, but I have NEVER hired anyone nor been hired myself based any kind of m$ office skills....

If somone is smart and can learn Word perfect or open Off or m$ off, then they can easily learn another package.

Re:Ask Your School Board to Mandate Open Source To

[cavetroll]

Sure, they are commonplace /now/

We are talking about secondary schools here though, these normally have pupils aged 11-18(ish).

Assume you have a typical office worker, who does their A-levels, takes a gap year, goes to a middling 'university' then sells their soul working in some mindless office job (quite a common situation, at least in the South East of the UK)

These 11-year olds, entering school today, won't enter the work force for about a decade.

10-12 years ago, the Amiga was still alive, windows 3.11 was modern, and the 'new shiney stuff' was things like the Atari falcon. Word Perfect was battling MS Word, and not clearly losing.

Netscape navigator was the major web browser and most people didn't even know what the internet was.

what will be commonplace 10-12 years from now?

Furthermore, that is only at the point they enter the workforce, most school children will not retire until their 50's at the earliest, that is 40 years away.

40 years ago computing would've been unrecognisable to those in the field today.

15 years ago was the era of wordstar, 20 years ago the age of typewriters. Do you think that lessons in typewriter maintainence that they took as teenagers help 30-year olds in the job market today?

if schools are merely training mindless drones for a job now, then slavish adherence to modern de facto 'standards' is an uncertain proposition, but if, as I believe, education should be something that is for life, then such an approach is indefensible.

Re:After graduation

[rpozz]

That argument has cemented Windows into schools in the UK. However it is total bullshit.

The main reasons for this include:

1) All word processors/spreadsheets/whatever have almost exactly the same user interface. Once you know OO.org, it's not exactly rocket science to know how to use MS Office.

2) The version of Windows/MS Office that the school uses will be out of date in around a year or so, and you can bet your ass they won't update for another 5 years. So you'll probably be using something slightly different from what you learnt in school when you get a job.

3) Knowing how to use a computer is NOT about knowing how to use MS products. The main point of computers in schools is to improve typing skills, learning how to lay out a document, spreadsheet formulae, etc. All of which shouldn't be specific to any given piece of software.

What We'd Need

[ThisIsFred]

In order for this to happen, I'd need the following to happen first:

* All other agencies that communicate with my district would have to settle on a common, open document format, and stay with it. We need to read what the state sends us.

* Our student information systems would have to support something other than Microsoft products. Tell NCS/Pearson to port SASIxp/IGPro/PCXP to something other than Windows. Follet Software did it with their media circulation software. It's far from impossible.

* All other agencies need to hire something other than web developers who took a half-semester ASP programming course.

* Our accounting systems need to be ported to something other than Windows. There are no cost-effective systems that run on Linux (it's not just initial purchase, it's the support availability).

Where I could substitute with Linux, I did. It's not just Internet access and games for kids, either. Many districts are computerized from top to bottom, so the answer to "why do we need computers in schools", is "because it saves labor costs and gets the job done faster." You also might want to consider that many schools don't have full-time IT staff. Most of the available contractors are MS Certified Reset-button Pushers.

Re:What We'd Need

[NullProg]

I don't think they are advocating removing Windows/Office from the Administrators. Allthough saving tax-payers money should always be the goal of any school district. More money = more teachers and better salary for others.

Advocate using Linux/OpenOffice to teach computer fundamentals to the kids. Word Processing, SpreadSheets, Graphics, etc. These activities don't require expensive Microsoft software.

Enjoy,

Re:After graduation

[steveness]

To date (12 years in the tech world) I have only once been to a job interview that didn't end with a job offer. Every one of those interviews included questions like "Can you use tool x?", and I have found that most HR guys are actually smart enough to see that if I can use tool y, tool z, and if necessary code my own tool, I can probably handle tool x. The interview is about understanding the company's needs and offering solutions to those needs.

That's not evading or being dishonest, it's showing the interviewer how my skill set is relevant and helpful.

The costs of using windows is not only the money

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Think about the cost for the kids education. They are teached to use a system that is designed so you don't have to THINK while using the computer. It's maybe ok for your grandma (It's still ethically wrong to use it since it's proprietary), but, do we want our childs to go to school so they are teached NOT to think?.

Unix is the way to go.

Detailed case study with costings

[mikeb]

For a case study with costings (in fact it was used to illustrate the lead story in the Times Educational Supplement print edition), Orwell High School in Felixstowe is hard to beat. Then again I would say that, wouldn't I, since I was involved in implementing it. Their savings amount to very much more than the modest 20% to 40% mentioned in the TES article. The case study is at
http://cutterproject.co.uk/Casestudies/orwell_cost _benefit.php.
The school has costed its savings at 40,000 pounds (UK) per year - or in the region of US$70,000 I guess.

There is something really pleasing in seeing five classroms of 30 or so kids each sit down and use a Linux desktop as the most natural thing in the world.

Re:After graduation

[YukonTech]

And now the interview of a student who didn't have access to computers in schools. Can you use Excel? Sure, I just pop it out of the wrapper and start to chew. Thanks, we will let you know...

Things that keep us locked into MS OFFICE

[paperclip2003]

Things that keeps us on MS office:

1) (native aqua that uses mac fonts) OpenOffice for Macintosh and we need an easy way for teachers, students and staff to have one standard suite for both PC and Macintosh (Windows and OSX)

2) SMS (Student Management systems that we seem to be using are locked into MS Office) -- they always link through some sort of Sqlserver foxpro type driver. Most SMS products are this way probably because people write them in Visual Basic. Unfortantly, the ones that fit what educators need fall in this category.

3) Open Office is dog slow on the PC (Windows and Linux). Also it does not run well on the Macintosh.(Extra X11 stuff). the best verion of Open Office for the Mac is still neooffice/j. Open Office 1.9 and 2.0 beta is a lot better in this respet. I am sorry but Open Office is slow.Abiword is fast, but it lacks a presentation and spreadsheet.

4) We need more than word processing otherwise we would could use abiwork or the ilk.

5) People were trained on Microsoft Office or Word Perfect. Retraining is difficult with staff and teachers because we have become such a "Standards" based place which eats up most of their time. Also , training can traditionally cost more than the products and it is not like Teachers are usually technically savvy and many have trouble "learning it" on their own.

6) Most important is that it takes goverment organizations a long time to change; corporations will change faster than we will.

7) Many educational database programs and the like interface only with office (thank those dot coms for that one).

8) There is a version of office for every os that we use: Mac OS 9 and 8 - Mac OS X, and Windows 98, and XP.

I say this all and I am an avid linux user. I think Linux and Open Office is the future because it is a software evolution not a revolution. People will not "switch" to linux -- it will just be there... I don't even think it will "wow" people like longhorn or tiger. It will get them on the internet, do some word processing, and that is what education really needs.It is just going to take time that is all.

Use computers APPROPRIATELY

[davidwr]

Some schools buy computers for the mere sake of having them. They think the mere presence of a computer in front of a student will make him learn faster or better. The reality is computers change the way students work, but not always for the better.

If you are going to have computers in schools - and I think you should - do the following:
1) make sure you have the electrical and networking infrastructure in place ahead of time, or at least concurrent with hardware delivery
2) train the teachers on how to use the computers in the way they and their students are expected to use them. Train them well enough so they can teach the students what they need to know. But wait you say, students will used computers in unexpected ways. Expect that to happen and train accordingly.
3) have an appropriate software infrastructure. This means a suitable operating system, suitable security software, device drivers, etc. Infrastructure is the "under the hood" software, it does not include tools, applications, and educational software.
4) use hardware and software that is appropriate for the task at hand.
5) use the applications you need for the task at hand.

In addition, you need policies and procedures in place to prevent abuse, recover a machine that's been downed due to accidental or deliberate damage, etc.

All of this costs money. If it's not in your budget, the right thing to do is to either scale down sensibly or perhaps scrap the project entirely. Leaving out key components because you didn't have the money is like building the first 99% of a road that connects two points and leaving the last 1% unbuilt - it's not very useful.

I for one would rather have the entire computer budget moved to the student materials budget than have it spent on a system that, because it was poorly implimented, is being way underutilized. On the other hand, if it's properly implimented, computers can improve the breadth, depth, and overall quality of education, particular for research-intensive classes like history and for projects that require non-local collaboration.

If it were 3rd graders learning to use OpenOffice

[davidwr]

If the same 3rd graders were using OpenOffice's Presentation program, would you make the same comment?

Personally, I think teaching third graders the rudiments of office productivity programs is a good idea, if that knowledge will help them achieve the non-computer curriculumn goals.

Take PowerPoint and similar software, for example:
If itis used to teach students how to summarize and find the important points for a presentation, then that's good.
If it's used to teach them how to make eye-candy presentations devoid of content, that's bad.

When it comes to making cards, third graders are probably better off using a simpler program that Powerpoint.

Ditch them and make them beg

[t_allardyce]

How dare Microsoft think they can hold the British government by the balls. The government needs to basically say "Ok, we're going to use Microsoft software for some things and other software for other things, if you don't like this arrangement we are quite happy to use other software for all things and to maybe start sharing these ideas with your other customers."

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Mabe you need to find a windows maps software, so you can see that there is a world outside the USA and that not everyone is a native english talker.

Re:The costs of using windows is not only the mone

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

1 - I Run the GNU Operating System. Linux is just my kernel.
2 - I'm not saying that it's unethical to use things created by big corporations (That would be actually a critic to the whole capitalist system, and yes, i actually think that the capitalism system is in itself corrupt and unethical, but we live under it, and it's a whole different topic to the one we are dealing with right now). What i'm saying is that it's unethical to use products that makes use of copyright law and other laws designed to take your freedom as a user, as a scientist, and as a human being awawy, because by doing so you are helping them to continue doing it.

I Wouldn't mind using a good system, like, for example, Solaris, if sun would provide it under conditions that woudln't affect my personal freedoms or the freedom of someone else.

Right now, the only system that fullfils my ethical and technical specs is GNU.

Re:computers hurting education

[saskboy]

There was a study out of Europe, I think Germany, last month that concluded that having multiple computers in the home led to lower testing grades at school.

The previous studies in North America of course have concluded that computers give people a competitive advantage over their computerless peers, but that trend I don't believe. I work in the computer industry so to speak, and in a type of educational field, and I may be nuts to say this, but we need fewer computers in the schools, or homes if teachers and parents aren't going to supervise the computer use.
If you watch a 10 year old use the Internet these days for instance, if they are unsupervised, they will be on MSN or AIM talking with some people they don't even know, and visiting games and marketing websites, or playing games that teach nothing, not even pseudo-educational games like Oregon Trail are played. Having unrestricted computer access as a child is harmful to education, as are things like TV and video games. The only time a computer is going to help, is when it is one of many tools in the parent's strategy for educating their children in the home. A kid can't be plunked in front a computer with no educational goal in mind, for an undefined period of time.

The majority of callers to the radio station that reported the German study, concurred that a computer is no good unless access is restricted, in the way that video game time should be.

Re:This Study is Biased and Flawed

[The MESMERIC]

1) Who is going to code their applications? Schools will have to hire hoards of developers to write custom code. Nearly all IT shops are against this, in favor of COTS.

Do they have that much money to waste? Fact is, Rapid Application Development in Linux is no big monster. You can always develop in RealBasic and compile the executable to run on Linux, that if learning curve is a problem.
Otherwise they can develop in Java: Look at Skype, Limewire, Azareus, Digichat.
Java is cross-platform you know?
Simpler languages like Tk/TCL are also cross-platform and easy to program in.
Fact is VB programmers are used to recycling ActiveX components which are very unstable, bulky and guess what support is now obsolete. Windows 2000 very soon will also lose support

2) Who are they going to call for tech support? How much does that cost?
Forums, Google, Articles, Books. People are badly accustomed with bad support that charges enormous rate; when it is known that people that work for them don't have a clue but follow from an answer manual. I know this girl that is clueless about computer and works for an IT Support Centre answering the phone.
Plus Linux hardly need as much support as Windows. It doesn't decay and corrupt so easily, it doesn't get so readily infected by nasties.

3) Who sets the standards for interoperabily?
I hope you don't think it should be Microsoft.
Interoperability is not a challenge for Linux, many internet cafes with solely Window clients run Linux on the background. Many corporates have their mail server sitting on Linux.
Can't comment on Mac though, never used it.
But can assure you - that with many more OSS education-related arising, Linux is by miles a cheaper better and saner idea.

The good thing about Microsoft is that you can always blame them if something goes wrong - so that can be handy for school admins.