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How Battlestar Galactica Killed TV

Don Melanson writes "Following up on the MPAA going after torrent sites, you may be interested in Mindjack's latest feature - Piracy is Good? How Battlestar Galactica Killed Broadcast TV by Mark Pesce. It includes a post-script written in reponse to the recent Torrent site shutdowns." From the article: "While you might assume the SciFi Channel saw a significant drop-off in viewership as a result of this piracy, it appears to have had the reverse effect: the series is so good that the few tens of thousands of people who watched downloaded versions told their friends to tune in on January 14th, and see for themselves. From its premiere, Battlestar Galactica has been the most popular program ever to air on the SciFi Channel, and its audiences have only grown throughout the first series. Piracy made it possible for 'word-of-mouth' to spread about Battlestar Galactica."

123 of 749 comments (clear)

  1. I remember it somewhat different.... by espergreen · · Score: 5, Funny

    "Hey! There is this really good show that just came out! You should download it off bittorrent too!"

    1. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by blincoln · · Score: 2, Informative

      I don't see how this could be... The new Battlestar Galactica is terrible, absolutely terrible. Now if they were showing reruns of the old series, maybe, but I want my 40 minutes back from even watching the torrent of the new one.

      Did you just watch the pilot, or the actual episodes?

      I *hated* the pilot, but after seeing the first season I went back and watched it again, and I can totally see why they made all the changes they did, other than the stupid glowing spine thing.

      I'm a big fan of the original series (fond memories of when I was = 5), I own the DVDs, etc etc, but the new one is great too in its own way. They even gave Richard Hatch a recurring guest role.

      --
      "...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
    2. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by sabernet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thou art the minority verily. The show is great and, apparently, a large chunk of the populace concurs.

      But to each his own, I guess. Frankly, I thought the original was campy. Good concept but reeked of that era's tv cheesiness.

    3. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by azav · · Score: 3, Funny

      Starbuck can NOT be a chick. For those of us who grew up fearing that cylon invaders may be approaching, a female Starbuck is heresy.

      --
      - Zav - Imagine a Beowulf cluster of insensitive clods...
    4. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by skitz0 · · Score: 4, Funny

      In the future ugly has been cured (except for the pox marks all over adamas face).

      Looks like a lot of slashdotters are going to be extinct.

    5. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by jlebrech · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Its to appeal to the women viewers. Don't you know?? all women have become lesbians.

    6. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2, Funny
      What about Adama? He is ooolllllddddd.

      Olmos's character is the majestic backdrop for all the young pretties to dance around, like Mt Kilimanjaro, a Buddha statue, or a neon beer sign.

    7. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by GuidoW · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, I did know and have adjusted my life style accordingly a long time ago.

      --
      If it's so secret, then how come I've never heard of it?
    8. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by StarKruzr · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "a female Starbuck is heresy"

      But she's hot, and therefore all is forgiven.

      --

      +++ATH0
    9. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by Provocateur · · Score: 5, Funny

      You're telling me...I remember the first time I saw Captain Picard's bald head, I thought, goddammit they haven't found a cure! I'm doomed!

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
    10. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by Cpt_Kirks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not only is she decent looking, she plays poker, drinks, smokes cigars and KICKS ASS.

      IMHO, other than Adama, she is the only MACHO character on the show.

    11. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by Pseudonym · · Score: 2, Funny

      Don't you mean "frack off"?

      --
      sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f(q{sub f{($f)=@_;print"$f(q{$f});";}f});
    12. Re:I remember it somewhat different.... by StarKruzr · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Have you ever seen Katee Sackhoff outside the role of Starbuck?

      She is super super cute and has a terrific body. Don't knock her 'til you do your research :)

      --

      +++ATH0
  2. Great Show by nra1871 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I watched every episode off of bittorrent. Friday nights at 10 is quite possibly the worst time ever for me to try and see a show. I downloaded the shows and watched them when convenient. I pay for cable and get sci-fi so I don't see how anyone could reasonably consider it stealing.

    1. Re:Great Show by Sj0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well NRA, you see, by paying your cable bills but not watching the show, you're not stealing at all.

      Wait -- oh shit.

      I mean....um....You ARE stealing...because...you...paid...for...

      it?

      I've got nothing. I don't watch the ads regardless of where I watch it, so that's a bullshit claim. I pay extra to get the premium channels all my favourite TV shows are on(and I'm guessing sci-fi is a premium channel as well), so realistically the mpaa are just assholes.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    2. Re:Great Show by }InFuZeD{ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      By the same argument, if you have a radio, it should be legal to download the music that is played on the radio. This argument becomes even stronger if you have XM radio or the like.

    3. Re:Great Show by MrDomino · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Lisa, if we don't watch the commercials, it's like we're stealing TV!"

    4. Re:Great Show by As+Seen+On+TV · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I have much respect for the "as far as I'm concerned" point of view. However, in this case, you're just plain wrong. There is a qualitative difference between recording a show when it's broadcast (via VCR or Tivo or whatever) and getting somebody else who recorded it to make a copy for you after the fact.

      This different is not subtle, nor is it something you can dismiss with a wave of the hand. It doesn't go away when concealed behind an "as far as I'm concerned."

    5. Re:Great Show by bill_mcgonigle · · Score: 5, Funny

      In the Slashdot world it works like...
      1. Get high Nelson ratings.
      2. Charge more for commercials.
      3. Profit!


      In the Slashdot world there are plenty of Nelson ratings. Mostly it's geeks sitting on couches, pointing at dumb shows on TV and taunting, "Ha-Ha!". I recently Nelsoned Enterprise, for one.

      Unfortunately the rest of world isn't so clever and they have to go by Nielsen ratings.

      --
      My God, it's Full of Source!
      OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
    6. Re:Great Show by kfg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      This different is not subtle. . .

      Indeed, it means that the person who uploaded the show has done something wrong.

      KFG

    7. Re:Great Show by schon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is a qualitative difference between recording a show when it's broadcast (via VCR or Tivo or whatever) and getting somebody else who recorded it to make a copy for you after the fact.


      Well then, perhaps you could explain that difference to us, because I sure don't see it.

      Besides the fact that someone has to take time to make a copy, what's the "qualitative" difference you're speaking of?

    8. Re:Great Show by nra1871 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I really don't see how it is different. For years (coworkers for exampe) com in and say 'hey did you see the simpsons last night?' 'no I had to go out with the inlaws/friend/brother/dog' 'well i taped it, I'll bring it in tomorrow'. This is nothing new, just a different medium.

    9. Re:Great Show by VargrX · · Score: 4, Insightful
      so sayeth Tachys:
      You are supposed to pay for it by watching the commercials.


      No... I'm going to give you the same answer to this type of statement that I alway's have:
      READ your TOS - as far as I can tell, and that some laywer friends of mine can tell, You are NOT liable for 'skipping advertising of any kind' when you sign your agreement with your local broadcasting company.

      The advert's are nothing more than a nuisance to most people, and do absolutely nothing except provide for 'snack/bathroom break' time during the show. As far as 'advertisers/distributors /producers' aiming to make thier money back by violating your eyeballs, tough luck, they didn't pay directly for that privelege.
      --
      Sometimes people just have to learn and adapt to change, it is one of the requirements of being a living thing.
    10. Re:Great Show by blowdart · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, in the UK (where we saw the ending first) Galactica is already on DVD, both the pilot and series 1.

    11. Re:Great Show by SatanMat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Control, control, you must learn control...

      1) -- You did not watch the ads. in so doing you have taken revenue away from me, my family and our porche...

      2) you did not watch the show in the manner which I THE LORD MPAA have deemed the only one worthy

      3) You are thinking... STOP IT!! I will tell you how to think and what to watch...

      now go... and download no more.

    12. Re:Great Show by rpozz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There is a major difference between going for a piss during an advert break, and actively removing every single advert. I assume that's what he was getting at.

    13. Re:Great Show by j_w_d · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You need to read the article and think through the implications of facts it discusses. The most pertinent is that viewership evidently increased, possibly by orders of magnitude because of the "piracy." Now think about this, most people who subscribe to cable don't just subscribe to one channel. So, they exercise a choice about what they are going to watch. Therefore, from the SciFi channel's management's view point, "piracy" had an effect upon the decisions of paying viewers. In effect, "piracy" increased their revenue stream, possibly by orders of magnitude. Where is the loss that the use of "theft" implies?

      This same effect has been shown in the case of music CDs as well. The real issue of the RIAA is not "piracy," since it is easily shown that there IS NO FINANCIAL LOSS to any of their members. The issue lies in the fact that the RIAA represents middle-men, not artists. The potential ability of the artists - who are in effect the RIAA's cash cows - to go independent and cut out the middlemen entirely by using the internet as the artist's primary distribution channel scares the "pigs" out of the RIAA's membership.

      Also, the use of the terms "piracy" and "stealing" and "theft" are confusing and erroneous language. Nothing has been stolen. What has happened can best be described - if you insist trying to think in terms of a crime - as "dilution" of the nominal value of the "property." On a per-copy basis, the "legitimate owner" has to sell more copies, less expensively to clear the same amount they would if market forces permitted them to continue to peddle legal copies at the inflated prices they would prefer. The very fact that "piracy" occurs indicates that their product is both over-priced and demonstrably less available than it should be for the best sales. The RIAA could easily end their own priacy worries by reducing prices and increasing production.

      If the article's author is correct, BBC may well have quietly encouraged the "piracy" of the new Doctor Who to take advantage of the same effects that SciFi observed. Nearly 17% of the population of Great Britain tuned in to the first official broadcast of the new show. If that number was weighted to reflect that actual probable segment of the British population from which viewers are likely drawn for a show such as Doctor Who, that fraction has to be nearly 100% of the probable potential viewers, maybe even more than that. They can't have anticipated anywhere near that kind initial response to a new show, not even a new Doctor Who. Once more, you have ask where is the loss that the use of words like "stealing" and "theft" implies?

      Lastly, the article's author argues that the behaviour we observe is nothing more than what generations of broadcast radio and TV have lead the public to expect and how to behave. Payment is made indicrectly through the purcahse of products that have been advertised on the show, or over the radio between songs. This behaviour has been modified by the enabling technologies of computers and the internet. Never the less, it is what the industry has lead their consumers to expect.

      --
      ------ The only greater hazard to your liberty than n politicians is n+1 politicians.
    14. Re:Great Show by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      'no I had to go out with the inlaws/friend/brother/dog'


      You... had to... go out with the dog?
    15. Re:Great Show by Draknor · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well, technically, that wasn't legal either. But the **AA didn't care (much) because:
      1) You still had a physical medium, so if you give your copy to your friend, you don' have it. Unles...

      2) You made copies, which wasn't as common as it is now. And then, everything was analog and still required a physical media, so making copies wasn't as easy as click & save.

      It's sort of a slippery slope argument, I guess. Making those early copies wasn't a huge deal (although the **AA companies fought against them back in the day, I believe), but now with the technology we have those same old practices are really causing problems for content producers & broadcasters that expect the old business models to continue to function.

    16. Re:Great Show by badasscat · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Besides the fact that someone has to take time to make a copy, what's the "qualitative" difference you're speaking of?

      He was just hoping the fact that he used a lot of big words would convince you that he was smarter than everyone else. Clearly, he isn't.

      There is no "qualitative difference" between recording a show yourself when it's on and asking someone else to do it for you. "Qualitative" in this context would mean that there is a distinction between the act of recording for yourself and for somebody else. This strikes me as a very printing press-era sort of mindset - when media is media, it's freely available over the air, and it's possible for that media to exist in an infinite number of places at once, then how is there a qualitative difference between watching media I have recorded and watching media someone else has recorded? Either way, I'm watching the exact same media, and I am costing the broadcasters the exact same amount of money: zero.

      The dirty little secret of the TV industry is that they don't have a moral leg to stand on here. They may have a legal one - which is why they keep throwing words around like "theft" and "piracy" - but how do you steal something that's freely available over the airwaves, or that my household pays to receive (and indeed, did actually receive) but that I choose to instead download from somebody else later?

      The fact is there's absolutely no difference to anyone when or how I watch TV programs, morally, ethically or by any other standard. The problem for the TV networks is a) they lose the ability to track my viewing habits when I download vs. watching on cable, and b) they lose the ability to serve me ads - but then I skip through the ads on my TiVo anyway, and there's certainly no law that says I have to watch them. (Not yet, anyway.)

      Bottom line is it screws up their business model and they don't like it. Too bad for them; they choose to put this stuff out either for free over the air, or over cable that I already pay them for anyway. If they were smart, they'd host downloads for all their TV shows themselves and put everything on free (i.e. basic) cable VOD, which would solve most of their problems. In the absence of that, though, I'm going to keep right on downloading shows from the usual sources and I'm not going to feel bad about it. (Not with a $98 per month cable bill, that's for sure.)

    17. Re:Great Show by Scrameustache · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There is a major difference between going for a piss during an advert break, and actively removing every single advert.

      You still have a full bladder in the later scenario.

      Other than that... Fuck 'em, I don't want to see their ads for tampons: I'll never buy tampons in my LIFE, if I ever do, it will be a brand specified by the woman making me run errands, not a brand selected based on advertising.

      I use the mute button or channel-surf when ads come on, I'm not watching ads on TV, I don't see ads on the net, I don't read the ads in the magazines, I don't listen to them on the radio, I don't owe anything to the advertisers.

      They try to brainwash me into giving them money, I resist by ignoring them, changing channel, muting, adlocking, turning the page, or skipping to thwe end of the commercial break. It isn't wrong of me to do this, like it isn't wrong of them to spend money to get me to know their product exists.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    18. Re:Great Show by Sj0 · · Score: 4, Insightful


      Because of the nature of electricity travelling through a wire broadcast to thousands or millions of households, it is not realistically possible to determine Television ratings by trying to discover if all the televisions are tuned into a certain channel(and the fact that there are a wide variety of cable recievers makes this task virtually impossible -- if they were all the same, one could concievably take the Zth at frequency wc to determine the number of band-pass filters being used to extract the particular channel from the cable connection, but the circuits are different on old Sony TVs from the 1970s, younger sets from the 80s, and modern sets from the 90's and today, making such an approach useless). Because of this, not watching a TV show on the comedy network won't get them a penny more than me watching it there. Your arguement falls apart immediately because nobody knows if my TV is set to channel 2 or 200. If someone calls and asks? Oh fuck, yeah, I'm watching the daily show on the comedy network! Right now! Yep! Sure! They won't though.

      Your argument also is a bit weak. Cable companies, like ISPs, provide access not content. The fact that you pay the cable company and could watch the show means nothing to the cable channel producing the content.

      Not my problem. I'm paying to watch the show. That makes me a paying customer, not a pirate. I modded my x-box too which I'm positive Microsoft is pissed off about, that doesn't make my x-box illegal(especially since I don't use it to run illegally pirated software, just good old fashioned Xebian).

      Should cable channels have other ways of paying for their content? I believe they would love to hear any ideas you have about alternatives to ratings that could be used to pay their production costs and produce a profit. If you figure that one out, you'd be this generation's equivalent of Ted Turner.

      Again, you mistake me for someone who cares. When I pay to get into a concert, it's not my problem that they only make money on t-shirts. When I walk into a store and buy only the item that is on sale, it's not my problem that they're playing a loss-leader game and won't make any money unless I buy something else. When I buy a monthly bus pass and use it fifty times a day, again it's not my problem that they only break even if I only use it 3-4 times a day. When I watch a movie with product placement, and I don't even consider their product once, that's not my problem either.

      Making the studios money *ISN'T* my job. That's theirs. If I'm paying for something -- and I am, in fact I'm paying a premium for the channels with my favourite shows, my end of the bargin is done with. The fact that they can't make any money the way I consume simply isn't my problem.

      --
      It's been a long time.
    19. Re:Great Show by daigu · · Score: 3, Informative
      I work in advertising. It is clear from your comments you do not understand how programs make it to TV. I'll try to explain it - as simply as possible.

      ACNielsen is the ratings service that advertisers use to gauge how many people watch a particular show. They then go to what is called the upfront market where media buying companies buy commercial space in bulk from channels. The prices set are based on ACNielsen's numbers and the market - it's a bit like an auction. If advertisers do not buy ads for a particular show that covers the costs and the channel it is on is supported by advertising, it goes away and is replaced by a new show that advertisers will buy advertising for so it covers costs.

      As to why it is your problem, it means if you don't watch the show in a way ACNielsen tracks it, the show is more likely to go away. It's not about legality - although I think if you live in the U.S., there are a lot of nuances in IP law and I don't know if your particular line of argumentation would work in a court of law - might also depend on your court.

      As for your other comments, you don't need to care. However, you should understand that there is a causal relationship between not watching it on TV and the show not lasting. Personally, I don't watch TV, so it doesn't make a difference to me. I'm just pointing out how the system works so you can make choices to your advantage.

    20. Re:Great Show by almostmanda · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Isn't the list of seeders and sharers on btefnet.com or the like a more trackable indicator of a show's popularity than anything the networks have come up with? I suppose satellite companies and Tivo have the tech to measure viewership, but as far as cable and network television, the only way to measure viewership is through actively surveying people or using Nielsen set-top boxes. You're already only getting the opinions of people who "opt in." AFAICT, measuring the amount of people who download a show is a much better indicator of popularity and fans than throwing a signal out there and expecting everyone who likes the show to tell you about it.

    21. Re:Great Show by krunk4ever · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I know you're allowed to make backups of games, movies, audio cds that you own. Is it illegal to have someone who owns the exact same thing help you make a backup because you don't own the technological means to back something up?

      meaning let's say i recently purchased the firefly tv series on dvd. i'm paranoid that somehow these dvds may get scratched and damaged so i want a backup of it before anything happens. i don't have a dvd burner, but i know a friend does. can i bring over my dvds and ask him to help me create a backup? now taking this a step further, let's assume my friend already has his own set of the firefly tv series on dvd. is it illegal then to ask him to duplicate his copy so i won't have to bring mine over. the end result is the same, but the mean is slightly different in which my friend is using his dvd set to backup instead of mine.

      to translate this over to the tv scenario. i purchase cable tv and so this my friend. i'm legally allowed to record stuff from tv onto tape or harddrive, but i personally don't own a vcr or tivo or dvr. However, my friend owns a vcr and i asked if he could help me record something (note that both of us has access to the source and both of us are legally allowed to record the source). is that really illegal then because he's not using my source to make a recording for me? as stated before, the end results are the same, it's just the means are slightly different.

    22. Re:Great Show by Sj0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's not that I don't understand, it's that I don't care. Just like I don't care that when I buy only the specials at the supermarket I'm causing them to lose money, I don't really care how the shows I watch make money. That's their problem, not mine.

      Isn't it a bitch that the corps own mindset can be used against them, that we're not all so happy to be willing cogs in their machines beyond the bill at the end of the month?

      --
      It's been a long time.
    23. Re:Great Show by ahknight · · Score: 2, Insightful

      We know how shows make it to TV. We also know we don't have Nielson boxes and don't factor into what they say and do.

      I could leave it tuned into the public access channel and it wouldn't change a thing. That's the point most of us are making.

      Except the guy with the box. It's his duty to watch the shows I like. :)

    24. Re:Great Show by hazem · · Score: 4, Insightful

      However, you should understand that there is a causal relationship between not watching it on TV and the show not lasting.

      Actually, it doesn't matter at all if I watch it or not. The only ones that really matter are the people in the sample set for ACNielsen watch it. AC Nielsen makes their money by alleging that their sample set is representative of the entire tv-viewing population.

      It's not my job to make sure I conform to that sample set. It's their job to figure out what I'm watching - if they want to be in the business of reporting on what people are watching.

    25. Re:Great Show by bit01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But no doubt you're the first to complain when things on the internet become subscription based?

      Nice straw man. It never will because people have an obvious need to sound off. Supply and demand will do it's thing. Not to mention the fact that when a millions of people can read something one person wrote the cost/benefit is extraordinary.

      Advertisers love to claim they're doing people a favour. Bullshit, they're largely parasites these days.

      Just forcing consumers to pay twice, once in time to watch the ad and a second time in the increased price of the product to pay for the ad.

      If I ran the world ;-) I'd tax unsolicited advertising to death, paying for the huge theft of time. Classified advertising, including "surprise me" classifications, no problem.

      ---

      90% of modern marketing is nothing more than an arms race and so purely parasitic.

    26. Re:Great Show by cfuse · · Score: 2, Funny
      Other than that... Fuck 'em, I don't want to see their ads for tampons: I'll never buy tampons in my LIFE

      The advertisers see you as an untapped market.

    27. Re:Great Show by NutscrapeSucks · · Score: 2, Informative

      AC Nielsen makes their money by alleging that their sample set is representative of the entire tv-viewing population.

      Actually, TV commercial-viewing population, since the advertisers are who ultimately who pays Nielson. The objective popularity of the show is immaterial, except to the extent it sells commercial time.

      If you're watching the commercial-free version on your computer, you've effectively dropped out of the people who "count", and Nielsen is going to exclude your group from the reporting even if they could track you. They've done this with VCRs for years.

      Not that this should concern you because there's not really anything you could do about it unless Nielson asks you to use their box.

      --
      Whenever I hear the word 'Innovation', I reach for my pistol.
  3. Obligatory .. sort of. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Battlestar killed the TV .. star!

  4. What if... by Richie1984 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What would have happened if people had downloaded the show, watched it, hated it, and told their friends not to tune in? Viewing figures would be down, and piracy could be held accountable. This sort of result works both ways, folks

    --
    I'm not stressed. I'm just terribly, terribly alert.
    1. Re:What if... by m50d · · Score: 4, Insightful
      That cuts down the spread of it. Those friends who didn't tune in won't have seen it, so they won't go telling their friends it's bad because they've got no basis to. Wheras if they hear it's good, they will watch it, and then tell their friends about it, who will tell their friends, and so on.

      Also, remember any publicity is good publicity.

      --
      I am trolling
    2. Re:What if... by dj42 · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Also, remember any publicity is good publicity." Well, yeah, but would you send your kids to Neverland Ranch to stay with MJ?

      --
      We are one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively. Back to you with the weather, Bob!
    3. Re:What if... by Em+Ellel · · Score: 5, Funny

      What would have happened if people had downloaded the show, watched it, hated it, and told their friends not to tune in? Viewing figures would be down, and piracy could be held accountable. This sort of result works both ways, folks

      What?! And encourage producers to make higher quality programming that people actually WANT to watch!?!? We just can't have that!

      --
      RelevantElephants: A Somatic WebComic...
    4. Re:What if... by zakezuke · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What would have happened if people had downloaded the show, watched it, hated it, and told their friends not to tune in? Viewing figures would be down, and piracy could be held accountable. This sort of result works both ways, folks

      Ask your self what are you more likely to do in the event of crap.

      1. Download something new, discover it's crap, tell all your friends it's crap.
      2. Download something new, discover it's crap, and just delete it.

      Let's assume you take the time to tell your friends it's crap. It's still advertising... they might take the time to watch the crap to see how crappy the crap is.

      --
      There is no sanctuary. There is no sanctuary. SHUT UP! There is no shut up. There is no shut up.
    5. Re:What if... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny
      Well, yeah, but would you send your kids to Neverland Ranch to stay with MJ?

      Of course I would, I might even be able to sue him for lots of money!
    6. Re:What if... by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Funny

      but would you send your kids to Neverland Ranch to stay with MJ?

      Hell, I want to go to neverland ranch! They got a ferris wheel, llamas AND porn! Sounds like my kind of place.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    7. Re:What if... by myowntrueself · · Score: 3, Funny

      "Hell, I want to go to neverland ranch! They got a ferris wheel, llamas AND porn! Sounds like my kind of place."

      Don't forget the freak show. Ok, so they only have one freak, but what a freak eh!?!?

      --
      In the free world the media isn't government run; the government is media run.
    8. Re:What if... by Eradicator2k3 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Unless it's porn with llamas on a ferris wheel.

      --
      Mr. T pitied this fool on 27 July 1992.
  5. Anime Fansubs by Beolach · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Another example of this is effect is anime fansubs. It's the free fansubs that create a market for a show; if there's enough of a market, the anime will hopefully get licensed, and will be profitable. If an anime is licensed, but hasn't been fansubbed, chances are it will have a much smaller market & not be as profitable.

    --
    Join moola.com, play games to earn money.
    1. Re:Anime Fansubs by ShinmaWa · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You are fallaciously supposing a cause-effect relationship where there likely isn't one. People only fansub anime that they like. People only buy anime that they like. Therefore, the fansub vs market size don't share a cause-effect relationship, but actually have the same cause (people like the anime because its good). If its no good, not only would no one buy it, but no one would bother to fansub it either.

      Compare the fansubs with the massive marketing machine that anime enjoys today (visit any Suncoast to see what I mean), and it is easy to see that relatively low-quality fansubs with practically no distribution to speak of have almost no effect on sales of anime.

      Its the same thing with Battlestar Galactica. People watched the show because the show was good, not because of BitTorrents. The vast, vast, vast majority of the people who tuned into the show did so not because of some guy who watched it on a BitTorrent and told his buddies, but because of a highly hyped miniseries, multiple magazine articles, a featurette in TV Guide, commericials out the ying-yang, billboards, print ads, and yes, even word of mouth of those who watched the show legally (which are probably 2-3 orders of magnitude higher than those who downloaded it via BitTorrent).

      This whole article seems to employ a lot of wishful thinking and some very sketchy, highly faulty, and impossible to prove logic to rationalize morally questionable behavior.

      --
      The /. Effect: Thousands of users simultaneously accessing a site to not read its content.
    2. Re:Anime Fansubs by nz17 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Pretend that you are newcomer anime company VDA. Now you have very little assets to spend on acquiring new anime properties for N.A. distribution. Do you:

      A) Buy up the really popular and thus expensive shows currently airing in Japan, knowing full well that such a show might not enjoy the same popularity in America due to the culture difference.
      B) License lots of cheap shows (which culminate into large cost) hoping one will be a break-out hit in N.A. and pay for the other shows' cost.
      C) Look at what the popular torrents are and go for those you can afford which seem likely to pay for themselves or moreso

      Now options A and B might work out well for a company with pockets as deep as A.D. Vision, but for an average, independent translation house that route just can't fly.

      ---

      A few more things:
      1) Most fansubs today are not only high-quality, but they are direct pulls from the Japanese commercial DVDs. The fansubbing on these surpasses what can be done with simple DVD subtitles, and often includes on-screen translations of all the Japanese text on items such as signs and posessions alongside the original kana.
      2) Really popular shows such as Naruto, which has now been licensed by ShoPro, are very widely distributed online. How much so? 400,000 downloads every time a new Episodes is released. I got this information from Wizards of the Coast's magazine Anime Insider. Now if anime companies are not paying attention to fansub downloads, then where did ShoPro and Anime Insider get those numbers from?

      --
      Most men are not thought unwise until they speak.
  6. The "Metallica" effect by johnny_sas · · Score: 3, Interesting
    This is the same thing Metallica did in its early days to get known, and it worked.

    Of course, now that they're rich, they call doing this 'being a criminal' and that it destoys the chance of new talent (or by extension, shows) being recognized and being able to survive, when the opposite is clearly true.

  7. 3 Reasons Broadcast TV will never die by EtherAlchemist · · Score: 4, Insightful


    1). Too much money is involved in advertising and programs

    2). There will always be a readily available audience for TV

    3). People are "lazy" when it comes to viewing, it's easier to flip through channels and see right away what's on than start a download, wait, watch, decide it sucks and try to find something else.

    --
    R(k)
    1. Re:3 Reasons Broadcast TV will never die by Carthag · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not so sure about pt. 3. As bandwidth gets cheaper and more available, one could easily conceive of the systems for distributing torrents getting more user friendly.

      Some of the sites out there are getting quite a way. They've the shows listed with next air date and readily clickable links to the torrents for the newest episodes. In fact, that's how I watch Lost at the moment, since the Danish syndicated version is several episodes behind (and in pan & scan format).

    2. Re:3 Reasons Broadcast TV will never die by william_w_bush · · Score: 2, Insightful

      3 is true for most people, but for a lot of busier people, setting up a torrent stream is a lot easier and faster than f*ing scheduling your whole GD life around when a show comes on, not counting the commercials and boring/stupid parts. I must've run most of the 3'rd season of enterprise at 5x, just skipping around and seeing if the ship blew up or anything else important for the overall storyline, it just wasnt worth a full viewing.

      Jesus i pay 100$ on cable and premium channels and don't watch that much, I'd throw down the same easily just for a better cable that worked like tivo cept the show didn't have to air first (vod style), so number 1 isn't absolute.

      And for 2, 60 years ago tv was a crazy luxury only the rich could afford, radio was considered "good enough" for the average folk, with a weekly trip to the movies for variety. These things change, I doubt 10 years from now anyone would bother dealing with a tv set that didn't automatically queue up all the shows that fit your taste and have them ready to watch whenever you felt like it, and could throw up a show you heard about from friends and decided to try out too.

      Technology changes, people don't, next decade's "lazy tv" will be different from today's crap, ad nauseum.

      --
      The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
  8. This is true for every industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is how I was introduced to Doom and Windows, if I recall correctly.

    Piracy is as beneficial as it is "damaging". If not moreso. Example: I download all my PC games to try them out before buying. I never want to get screwed, and a lot of games are lemons that you can't return.
    Unfortunately that doesn't work for everyone since it's kind of a self-enforced honor system, but I call bullshit whenever I hear such major loss of profit due to filesharing followed by a record quarterly earnings from the same companies.

  9. Same could be said about The Family Guy by techstar25 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I remember a few weeks ago, the premiere episode of Family Guy leaked and everybody I work with was talking about it. I downloaded it at work (not using bittorrent, it was actually posted for download on a website), and the whole office stood around watching it. Needless to say, The Family Guy owes a lot of its popularity to how accessible it's been on the internet.

  10. It's true... by Darth+Maul · · Score: 4, Insightful


    I completely missed the miniseries. But when the new season was getting ready to start, a friend said I should check it out. I was rather skeptical because of the 'backlash' that a lot of the sci-fi crowd had against a lot of the changes from the original.

    The first thing I did was find a torrent of the miniseries, and I was hooked, absolutlely. I then made sure to watch every single episode of the new series because it really was that good. But I never really would have gotten intereted unless I had that torrent.

    Sci-Fi just got so much *right* with BG. The free downloads on their site, the official commentary podcast, and the show itself is just outstanding. I'm waiting eagerly for next season.

    --
    --- witty signature
    1. Re:It's true... by As+Seen+On+TV · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I completely missed the miniseries. But when the new season was getting ready to start, a friend said I should check it out.

      That part is fine.

      The first thing I did was find a torrent of the miniseries

      That part is not. The show was aired repeatedly on the Sci Fi channel in the weeks leading up to the series' premiere. A cut-down version was broadcast in prime time on NBC. The miniseries was released on DVD and made available for rent at any video-rental place in the country. There were numerous opportunities for you to watch the show.

      But instead, you decided to steal it.

      Guys, this is a problem. You're not seeing the difference between somebody offering something to you and you just taking it without permission.

    2. Re:It's true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      But instead, you decided to steal it.

      He must be an idiot. Why steal it when he could have just downloaded a copy?

  11. This is totally true by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I work at the leading worldwide online retail store in the world (Amazon.com) and checking the stats for keyword Battlestar galactica in customer search shows a increase of about 750 % monthtly since the torrent incident was reported in the press.

    1. Re:This is totally true by Provocateur · · Score: 2, Funny

      The Torrent Incident?!?

      I thought I've *seen* all the episodes! Which one is this?

      --
      WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
  12. Really? by xfmr_expert · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Oh come on...that is the weakest justification I ever heard. If someone is watching a pirated copy, why wouldn't they tell their friend to download the same copy, or pass it on themselves. This is plain illegal. It's theft of service, unless you are actually paying for cable and the Sci-Fi channel. No amount of bullshit justification will change that. Now, if the torrent versions include commercials, and the station airing it derives income solely from advertisements, it wouldn't matter how you watched it, as long as you didn't skip the commercials (in theory anyway, I know anyone with DVRs or whatnot does this anyway, myself included). Of course, I don't believe illegal downloaded is necessarily killing TV, and probably never will. Most people don't know what the hell a "torrent" is.

  13. The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. by rice_burners_suck · · Score: 4, Insightful
    You have to remember that a widespread viewership is not the goal of the RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. Nor do they care about increased profits. These organizations are under the control of a conspiracy that cares only about one thing: Reducing and eventually eliminating the rights of all people to information. Their goal is a world where all people are stupid; where only duckspeakers exist; where thoughtcrime is cause for a death penalty.

    These people want to be in control over everybody. This is why they increasingly want to create laws limiting the rights of people to information. When their goal is reached, there will be no such thing as movies, music, books, software, etc. All people will be brainwashed from childhood into a state of near unconsciousness. Only the few elite will be learned and have access to information. They will control the masses to obtain their own goals. And we will all be slaves, in eternal bondage of the mind.

    That, not profits, is the goal of the RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. Otherwise, they would wake up to the obviousness of piracy's advantages to their business. (For example, some businesses spend a ton of money for publicity. Piracy provides this for free.) That is why we must fight these evil organizations.

    1. Re:The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. by TheKidWho · · Score: 3, Funny

      hey!! Where do you buy your tin foil hats? I get them from the guy on 3rd Avenue! You too?

    2. Re:The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. by xiando · · Score: 2

      What you say is mostly so extremely true I am almost stunned. But you claim that profit is not their motive. This is wrong. Their goal is to make as much profit as possible in any given quarter. Controlling information and turning the human population into mindless consumers who do not question the information they are forced upon by these organizations is a means of reaching that goal: Profit. Profit is the goal and motive, control of the masses is just something they do in order to reach that goal.

    3. Re:The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. by rpozz · · Score: 2, Insightful

      These organizations are under the control of a conspiracy that cares only about one thing: Reducing and eventually eliminating the rights of all people to information. Their goal is a world where all people are stupid; where only duckspeakers exist; where thoughtcrime is cause for a death penalty.

      I would say that is a bit of an 'extreme' view. The RIAA, the MPAA and Microsoft all have one thing in common - their business model is on it's way down the shitter.

      In the case of Microsoft, people are eventually going to stop spending several hundred dollars on software just to write a letter.

      The reason why they buy laws is merely to keep their business model going - and of course, so that they can carry on making money.

      Almost certainly in the case of the RIAA/MPAA, and definitely in the case of Microsoft, piracy really does not give them advantages to their business. Outside of slashdot, people are a lot more lazy and will happily buy something if they can't easily pirate it.

    4. Re:The RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. by hyfe · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I have mod-points, but I'm at a loss on how to mod both you and the appangly bad replies you've gotten.

      You have to remember that a widespread viewership is not the goal of the RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. Nor do they care about increased profits.[...]

      What? Seriously, what? Debunking something like this is hard, because I have friggin idea what you're basing this on. Are you seriously thinking two organisations made up of lots of large corporations have managed to create consensus to start an evil-brainwashing campaign? What planet are you living on?

      Sure, some of the stuff they've pulled of is downright scaring, and needs to stop (late reports on propaganda aimed at children f.x.), but managing to conclude from this that their primary purpose is to destroy as free-thinking indiviuals is just plain lunacy! At worst, it's their secondary objective.

      These people want to be in control over everybody. This is why they increasingly want to create laws limiting the rights of people to information.

      Specifically, RIAA and MPAA want to restrict your freedom in concerns to movies and music. That's not very surprising either. Either way, for your sake, I do hope you have other cultural influences , because even if they succeeded, I'm not sure I'd personally notice much difference.

      That, not profits, is the goal of the RIAA, MPAA, and Microsoft. Otherwise, they would wake up to the obviousness of piracy's advantages to their business.

      Ever noticed Microsoft cracking down on piracy by individuals? No?

      Ever seen rants on slashdot on how the RIAA, MPAA and their industries are obsolete? Now image what they're scared shitless of?

      --
      "" How about taking the safety labels off everything, and let the stupidity-problem solve itself? """
  14. Sounds like the Photoshop Effect by Gribflex · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I often read stories about this kind of thing; where a {piece of software, band, CD, Movie, TV Show, etc} gains popularity and a 'legitamate' user base as a result of piracy.

    The most commonly used example of this is Photoshop (followed closely by windows). Through a very high piracy rate, and a very low litagation rate, photoshop gained so much market share that it is now the dominant application in its field (bitmap editing).

    Adobe didn't condone the piracy of their software, but they also didn't actively pursue minor cases. That is, if some high school kid pirated photoshop, and used to create images for personal use, no biggie. If a company pirated photoshop, and used it for commercial purposes (and got caught), send in the lawyers.

    So many people used the software illegally at home that when it came time to make a purchase in the work place, the choice was obvious. People already knew how to use photoshop, and kept hearing the name of the application over, and over again.

    By allowing piracy (or in this case, downloading of tv shows) to happen amongst a demographic that 'doesn't matter' (home users that cannot afford the software anyways, or a small number of people that would have downloaded BSG regardless) but have influence over a demographic that does (companies that can afford photoshop, or friends and family that have never heard of BSG), companies can gaing huge market share. It's a grey area, but it has proven positive effects.

    1. Re:Sounds like the Photoshop Effect by front · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Good post. Not only the "Photoshop Effect" is at work here. Kais Power Tools, a series of plugins for Photoshop, had the same idea. We bought a copy for our business in England in the 1990s after a summer intern kept badgering us to purchase a copy. How did she know so much about KPT?

      She had a pirated copy, had learnt to use it (pretty well) on her home Macintosh, and convinced us to go out and buy a copy.

      KPT (by Kai Krause and MetaCreations) actually had a "readme" text imbedded in the installer that kind of, somewhat, "allowed" for this. I don't have the file with me now but I remember the point made in the text.

      "If you get a copy of KPT which you have not paid for but you go ahead and use it on your home machine to make hobby files... fine. However... if you use our plugins to make up commercial art which you are charging a client for then PAY us for our tools. You are making money off of our work so pay us!"

      Worked for her... and us... and MetaCreations/Kai too.

      Best to learn to work with reality instead of trying to make up your own.

      "The street finds it's own use for things." - Willima Gibson

      cheers

      front

  15. One major issue by Jarnis · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The amount of viewers you can get with a legimate, legal torrent of a good TV show is still so small that the advertising revenue out of that wouldn't pay for the show.

    And you can bet your farm that the broadcasters will fight this all the way to their grave - meaning once you have a broadcaster footing any bit of the bill for the program, you can be sure that the agreement denies any legal avenue of internet distribution. So even if they could put it both on the telly, and legally as torrent, the broadcaster will NEVER allow it, as if torrents take off and become more popular, the broadcaster becomes redundant.

    I imagine it'll start off slowly... someone sponsoring a legal torrent of a 'geeky' subject material, paying for onscreen bug / 'sponsored by XXX' banners in the video, and then putting it out legally. Maybe something like, say, coverage of the E3 trade show or something else like that with small production costs (basically the cost of taping and editing). Then it'll go to cheap comedy stuff - animation, talk shows... and it's a long way until a drama show with $500K+ production costs per hour are funded by advertising for torrents.

    Also there is the issue of regions - advertisers want to advertise to target audiences. Very few companies want to advertise worldwide. Torrents are, by definition, worldwide. So you'd need sponsors who see value in advertising to the whole planet at once.

    Companies like Intel, AMD etc. might see some value in it, but considering that 90%+ of the advertisements I see in my telly are from very local companies, and would mean nothing to a large percentage of the torrent audience, it's problematic for the advertisers.

    We'll get there.. 10 years.. 15 years.. but in the meantime people will try subscription models with DRMed streams, pay-to-download DRM-crippled files and all the other junk like that - all while torrents slowly own the world. Things will start to change only after major chunks of the viewers are consuming torrents. Today it's few percent, not enough. iTunes came only after MAJOR chunk of music was downloaded online, same applies here.

  16. Joey: 35 seconds I will never get back by bit+trollent · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I downloaded an episode of "Joey" off bit torrent on the off chance that it might actually be funny. I really should have known better but as I have more bandwith than common sense I decided to take a chance and get it anyway. I couldn't even believe the oddassity the writers had to even make the laughtrack laugh. Anyways, 35 seconds I will never get back.

    Meanwhile "The Office" which is the best comedy that has been on NBC in many years was only picked up for 6 episodes. "Joey" gets a full season no questions asked while "The Office" gets six midseason episodes. Amazing. I told all my friends about "the office" and included a link to the torrent in my IMs. I know almost all of my friends watched it on tv when it aired after that. On the other hand I was so ashamed that I had even tried to watch "Joey" that I didn't even tell my friends I had downloaded it.

    If bit torrent rusults in "Joey" being cancelled and "The Office" being picked up for another season then that in itself shows that it has legitimate applications.

  17. Right, but... by Ieshan · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The people who download are *series* viewers. These are very different from spontaneous viewers.

    Series viewers are those who will pay to watch their favorite shows each week, and rarely (but sometimes) watch something at random. Usually anything they've watched at 'random' is actually something they've heard about beforehand, through advertising, friends, or downloading.

    Here's the thing. While the TV model accomodates spontaneous viewing very well, it's very difficult for series viewers to catch each episode, especially since many of them don't show more than once a week. The Survivor community online (www.realiiity.com, etc) is a great example of this type of viewer. A friend and I exchanged video-cassettes to catch up on shows that we would miss but for which could schedule recordings.

    The problem is, the series viewer is the one that suits the current format of show production. Unless you see each episode, the show isn't nearly as entertaining. Missing Week 5 of a 13 week program is simply *bad*.

    There needs to be an alternative distribution system. Bit-Torrent farms provided this. In large majority, these are fans who will buy the DVDs for the commentary and bonus features *anyway*. Downloading isn't bad for series TV. It's good.

    1. Re:Right, but... by EtherAlchemist · · Score: 2, Informative


      Hmm. I agree downloading isn't bad for series TV. I see your point, afterall TFA was about a series. For series shows with an established viewer base, I can totally see Internet distribution as a supplemental method of getting the show out (pirated or authorized) but I can't see torrents or P2P replacing or, frankly, even harming broadcast TV.

      98% of all households in America have a TV, 64% have cable, another 24% have satellite or a combination while only 31%-50% (depending on your source) have a computer and only 13% of those hooked up to the Internet have broadband access- a pre-requisite for downloading or streaming TV with any kind of qaulity.

      DVDs are a different thing altogether, I love the extras (one of the reasons I buy them anyway) but I also have Starz from Real, and there are extras for movies also. The major difference though, is that I can not select at will WHAT part of the extras I want to watch. The same is true for a download, you can sure skip through, but you can't select a scene like you could with a DVD. Plus, if your DVD player stops working, your DVD is still good. The same is not true for downloaded shows.

      --
      R(k)
  18. Deja Southpark by william_w_bush · · Score: 2, Informative

    Before southpark went big it was thrown around the net in RM format. Everyone loved it, and a lot of its popularity was attributed to that burst of exposure, I know I sure wouldn't have cared because, who has time to check out all the esoteric shit on basic cable? It's sad that as soon as the show was popular enough they cracked down on the sites hosting the rm's.

    Seriously, without that exposure theyd just be another gay comedy central abortion nobody heard about, fans went crazy getting them publicity.

    $50 at 20:1 odds BSG does the same thing when dvd time comes around.

    --
    The first rule of USENET is you do not talk about USENET.
  19. Re:Excuses Excuses by rainman_bc · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I usually don't reply to blatant flamebait like this, but it's not an excuse for piracy. BSG is on TV at an awkward time. Downloading the torrent has made this TV show accessible, and has increased the popularity of the show.

    Without BT it might not be as popular. Why is that a bad thing?

    Truth is, we pay for TV. If we miss a show that we like, and download it, isn't that akin to recording it on a PVR? Commercials or not?

    --
    09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
  20. Re: And of course... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hey, cool show I downloaded. Since I'm one of the few people with a Nielson TV rating thingy, I'd better leave the TV on when this is broadcast to give it my 'vote' (and for all those without a Nielson TV ratings thingy, it didn't matter a jot whether they watched it when it aired or not).

  21. Re:Exactly by schon · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The problem with that argument is that it doesn't actually prove anything.

    And the problem with your argument is that it's not analogous to the situation at hand.

    I rob a convenience store

    RIght there - your analogy is broken right from the very beginning, because robbing a convenience store is *IN NO WAY* similar to downloading something from the internet (regardless of how the MPAA/RIAA apologists try to spin it.)

  22. Re:Exactly by FooBarWidget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The problem with your analogy is that software can be copied without affecting the source. Your analogy would be more like this:

    "I go to a convenience store and use my Star Trek Replication Device to copy a can of Diet Coke, without taking away the existing Diet Coke. I like it so much that the next day, I go out and buy a case. I tell my friend that I like Diet Coke, and he buys a case."

  23. Wow by As+Seen+On+TV · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm really amazed by how many people have said here that they think downloading stuff off the Internet is okay, that it's just like setting the VCR, that it's not stealing. That really blows my mind.

    I don't see much point in making a moral argument. I get the impression that talking about karma here would get me laughed out of the room.

    How about a pragmatic argument, then? You want to be able to download high-quality TV shows and movies over the Internet, right? You want somebody to set up a store, like the iTunes Music Store, where you can legally get high-quality TV shows and movies. Well, guess what? Every time somebody says "Bit Torrent is just like a VCR" or "it's not stealing" or "I'm not doing anything wrong when I download," you make it just that much harder for Apple or anybody else to open such a store.

    Every time you say something like that, you push the date of our opening back by a month.

    If you won't buy a moral argument, will you at least buy that one?

    1. Re:Wow by vga_init · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Every time you say something like that, you push the date of our opening back by a month.

      Good. We consumers have made it quite clear we're not interested in doing business with you; we've chosen our own method of distribution, and we don't need to pay you to do it for us.

    2. Re:Wow by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right. Which is why iTunes is a total failure, and absolutely nobody else has shown any interest in getting into the online music biz. Right?

      Oh, wait ...

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    3. Re:Wow by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm really amazed by how many people have said here that they think downloading stuff off the Internet is okay, that it's just like setting the VCR, that it's not stealing. That really blows my mind.


      How is it not like setting the VCR?

      [...] How about a pragmatic argument, then? You want to be able to download high-quality TV shows and movies over the Internet, right? You want somebody to set up a store, like the iTunes Music Store, where you can legally get high-quality TV shows and movies. Well, guess what? Every time somebody says "Bit Torrent is just like a VCR" or "it's not stealing" or "I'm not doing anything wrong when I download," you make it just that much harder for Apple or anybody else to open such a store.


      You haven't actually made an argument yet.

      Every time you say something like that, you push the date of our opening back by a month.
      ...What? Whose opening? What opening? (ObGoatse here.)

      If you won't buy a moral argument, will you at least buy that one?


      No. You haven't actually made an argument, you've just said "it's wrong".

      Explain to me exactly how downloading something off BT is different from setting my VCR timer. Then I'll buy your argument, maybe. So far, you've just made a couple vague hand-wavings and said "fire baaaaaaaad".
    4. Re:Wow by birge · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Sorry, ASOT. You tried to appeal to something other than self-serving arguments of convenience on /.? That will teach you for suggesting people be honest. Geeks aren't exactly known for our high standards of morality. Doing the right thing is simple, and therefore not very fun. It's more satisfying to use market economics and the past transgressions of the target to explain why dishonesty is actually ok.

      I myself was going to point out that the same logic would suggest it's ok to carjack Bill Gates if you could show that the extra press would be good for him, but I was smart enough to just let this issue lie.

    5. Re:Wow by As+Seen+On+TV · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That never happened. This is one of those "Al Gore said he invented the Internet" myths that people keep spreading around with a pretty callous disregard for the truth.

      The truth is that in 2002, Turner CEO Jamie Kellner said that editing out commercials entirely with special software in DVRs is stealing. Nobody cares if you hit the fast-forward button. The networks care if you use software to automatically edit the commercials out entirely.

      However, the bigger issue here is that some people think it's okay to steal stuff just because they dislike the seller. That's deeply troubling.

    6. Re:Wow by That's+Unpossible! · · Score: 2, Informative

      The truth is that in 2002, Turner CEO Jamie Kellner said that editing out commercials entirely with special software in DVRs is stealing. Nobody cares if you hit the fast-forward button. The networks care if you use software to automatically edit the commercials out entirely.

      I usually agree with your posts, but in this case you are wrong.

      "Turner Broadcasting CEO Jamie Kellner is quoted in the trade journal 'Cableworld' saying, 'Your contract with the network when you get the show is you're going to watch the spots. Any time you skip a commercial you're actually stealing the programming.'"

      --
      Ironically, the word ironically is often used incorrectly.
  24. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you did that, you'd be stealing. What's so hard to understand about this? Taking something you don't have permission to take, whether it's a real thing or a copy, is stealing. The Bible says thou shalt not steal. If you want to do this, fine, do it. But why do you continue to try to say that it's not wrong? Why do you do that?

  25. Grateful dead effect by Lego-Lad · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Bootlegging has always been a successful marketing tool. Dave Mathews wisely followed in the Dead's footsteps by allowing people to make live recordings directly from the mixing console. College kids in particular passed the tapes around and launched the D.Mathews band to greater heights. It makes sense that BSCG would profit from this, too - the show is great.

  26. GPL violations killed the free software cause? by God!+Awful+2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    P2P apologists continue to be the most overt example of /. hyprocracy. Like it or not, this is purely a question of the copyright owners wanting to control the means by which their product is distributed (the "license", shall we say). In fact, it doesn't make a whit of difference whether /. readers believe that torrents have a positive effect on the popularity of tv shows because it is the perogative of the copyright owners to decide how their product is marketed. This story is nothing but a single piece of anecdotal evidence. And there isn't even the spectre of poor, exploited artists to elicit sympathy.

    I would like to see the same arguments applied to GPL violators. After all, unauthorized use of GPL software can't decrease the legitimate use of that software. It's not "stealing" because no one is being deprived of property, and the companies that choose to violate the GPL weren't the ones that were going to contribute in the first place. But now consider all the programmers who are being exposed to GPL via their employers' unscrupulous practices. The same guy who today is writing proprietary Linux extensions may someday cash in his stock options and spend his "retirement" writing the next generation networking code. And think about the benefit to the up & coming programmers in the 3rd world, who are benefiting from working on outsourced Linux-based code instead of outsourced Windows-based code. 10 years from now, that pool of programmers will make Linux even stronger. So come on /.ers... instead of persecuting GPL violators, you should be thanking them.

    Now go ahead readers & nitpick my analogy. But you know it to be true in essence.

    -a

    1. Re:GPL violations killed the free software cause? by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Now go ahead readers & nitpick my analogy. But you know it to be true in essence.

      I do not.
      I know that free software is distributed freely, and that the products of the copyright owners aren't supposed to be.

      Freely distributed software, freely distributed TV shows.

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

    2. Re:GPL violations killed the free software cause? by Chops · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You are aware, are you not, that there is more than one person who posts to slashdot? It's easily possible for some people to say A, and some people to say B, and for A and B to contradict, without anyone being hypcritical.

      Personally, I think that there are some people who do think A and B in this case. I think they do, though, because they see the GPL as a reasonable set of restrictions to put on a piece of software, and they generally sympathize with the goals of the people who create it. In contrast, they see the restrictions that the broadcasting companies want (broadcast flag, skipping commercials made difficult, nobody can distribute content without dealing with us) as unreasonable.

      There are surely some parallels, but wouldn't you agree that using someone else's freely-provided work to make money without agreeing to share your work on that product is quite a bit different from getting a show which is already widely distributed from an unauthorized source? They're both copyright infringement, but that's about all they have in common AFAICS.

    3. Re:GPL violations killed the free software cause? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I don't think you understand the essence of the GPL. It is a perversion of copyright, using existing laws to make a 'copyleft' license so as to enable *maximum* dissemination of information. If ideas were not governered by the framework of Intellectual Property, there would be no need for copyleft licenses.

      Being pro-P2P and pro-GPL isn't the hypocracy you think it is. Obviously you disagree with the principles of copyleft but it's proponents are generally consistant.

    4. Re:GPL violations killed the free software cause? by foreverdisillusioned · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't want to come off sounding like your typical anti-corporate zealot, but there's a big big BIG difference between a 12 year old girl violating copyright law and a multimillion dollar company violating copyright law.

      Consumers are NOT an organized whole. They are not out to destroy anything. As long as the TV/Music industry chooses to evolve, they will never be put out of business. OTOH, if a company like Microsoft could violate the GPL, they could virtually destroy Linux for all but the most dedicated enthusiast (use their war chest to build a ton of awesome improvements, convert all of the commercial users and a significant portion of the home users, then slowly break compatibility.)

      Your analogy fails because commercial enterprise is not the same as personal use. Downloading a TV show might not be "right", but it's not in the same league as major GPL violation. One is for profit; the other is not. Corporations do not (or rather should not) have the same rights that individuals do, and you just can't compare the calculated tactics of a software giant with a bunch of preteen p2p users who just wanna catch last night's Inuyasha.

  27. The real problem with that analogy.... by Kjella · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ...is that it is mindnumbingly irrational.

    "I go to a convenience store and use my Star Trek Replication Device to copy a can of Diet Coke, without taking away the existing Diet Coke. I like it so much that the next day, I replicate a case. I tell my friend that I like Diet Coke, and he replicates his own case. Now none of us buy Diet Coke, and they go bankrupt. Noone will bother inventing new soft drinks anymore, since there's no profit to be made."

    The whole "this is profitable" argument relies that a chain of events leading up to more sales (or other money-generating events like ad impressions). But if copying the first can is ok, why shouldn't the second, third or 100th be? Why should any of those you market it to bother to buy it instead of pirate it? You end up with a market with all marketeers and no customers.

    Kjella

    --
    Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    1. Re:The real problem with that analogy.... by WhyCause · · Score: 4, Insightful
      "I go to a convenience store and use my Star Trek Replication Device to copy a can of Diet Coke, without taking away the existing Diet Coke. I like it so much that the next day, I replicate a case. I tell my friend that I like Diet Coke, and he replicates his own case. Now none of us buy Diet Coke, and they go bankrupt. Noone will bother inventing new soft drinks anymore, since there's no profit to be made."

      You've taken the StarTrek replicator argument a little too far, and you're missing a key point of real-world economics. No matter how easy it is to download a show it still costs you something. As the article points out, as long as the cost of getting everything free is just high enough, revenues still increase. To wit:

      Someone gives me a can of Diet Coke (or a TV show), and I really like it. I like it so much, in fact that I decide I want to drink (watch) it all the time. I look into getting it for free, by making my own at home (downloading all the episodes), but I decide that it is easier in the long run to buy it at the store (watch it when it comes on), and I do so. Diet Coke sales (show viewership) increase, and everyone is happy.

      There are two key points in that story. The first is that if you expose a large number of people to a new thing, you are likely to increase consumption by finding those people who didn't know about your product, but like it. In fact, companies do this all the time. Everytime there is a new cola variety or gum brand, marketers flood big events and college campuses, giving away free samples with the hope that people will like what they've tried, go buy it, and tell their friends. Premium cable channels do it as well, by offering "Free Weekends" packed with programming that will encourage viewers to subscribe to that channel.

      The second point is the Someone. In the case of new colas, etc., that someone is the company (or marketing company), enticing you to try something new, but only giving away a set amount of the free stuff. With TV shows via bittorrent, that someone is giving away as much as they can, but despite that, word of mouth has driven people to watch the shows via cable, which increases their revenue, because the cost of getting it for free is just a little too high for most.

      The fact of the matter is that downloading shows and software takes time, effort, computer hardware, and some technical know-how, making the cost of getting the shows greater than just watching it when it comes on. While I don't agree with the sue-happy tactics of the MPAA/RIAA, their lawsuits are ensuring that the cost of obtaining the shows/music is still just a little higher than buying it at the store. Sure it would be easier (and, I believe, more effective) to lower the cost of the cable TV or music CDs, but that affects their bottom-line directly, and they really don't like that.

  28. Pay-for-TV on DVD by jfengel · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Unlike with software, they don't make ad-free paid copies of the TV show available. At least not immediately. It comes out on DVD, commercial-free, months later.

    That works for me; it's like I'm years behind on my TV watching but gradually catching up.

    (At least I hope it remains commercial-free. Sooner or later somebody will get the idea to put a non-skippable ad in the middle of the show. I stop buying all DVDs in perpetuity from the company that tries that. I'm serious: I really don't care that much about Sidney Bristow's latest antics.)

    But many people would rather be able to discuss the current episode of 24 around the water-cooler the next day. It would be interesting if they made it available on a pay-for-download, heavily DRMed version. That would cut the rate advertisers would be willing to pay, of course, but in theory the fees balance that out.

    But the economics don't work. Eventually somebody would notice that they could be making more money from their airtime (which they sort of pay for, though not really; either way it's a scarce resource). Then they'd make some shows "over-the-air only", which would have higher ad fees. Those would be the more popular shows.

    How I'd want it to work, of course, is that gradually we get ala carte downloadable TV only. My cable fees stop subsidizing the channels I don't watch. The airtime gets put to better use than CSI: Waukeegan; say, cheaper cell calls and wifi broadband.

    Oh, well. I'm just gonna go read a book.

  29. What you're talking about is... by raehl · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Tiered pricing.

    Charge less for people who can not pay as much or people less inclined to pay at all. It's the same idea behind the senior citizens discount, or kids eat free, or midnight or matinee movie showings.

    In this case, it's give away the programming (well, let people watch it stripped of the advertising) if the viewer is someone willing to pay to go through the trouble of downloading it instead of just turning on the TV.

    The problem with this model for TV (or movies for that matter, the article attempts to differentiate between the two but on the internet there is no difference) is that what happens when the cost of getting the program on the internet goes away? What happens when most people find it just as easy to get a program on their computer as they do to get it on TV?

    What happens when you can get bittorrent on AOL?

    The problem with the "little bit of piracy for a lot of real viewers" is that it only works when piracy is inconvenient. If the costs of pirating the program become less than the costs of getting the program legitimately for most viewers, then the model doesn't work anymore.

    As things like bittorrent become more and more user friendly, MPAA et. al. are going to have to issue more and more lawsuits to keep the costs of piracy high and preserve the model, otherwise more and more regular viewers will become pirate viewers and the model won't work anymore.

  30. Re:Typically Lame Thinking From Thieves by burnetd · · Score: 2

    And how is this different to 1. Show gets low ratings 2. Show available on p2p 3. The low ratings due are to piracy. ?

  31. Money = Power by Scrameustache · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Profit is the goal and motive, control of the masses is just something they do in order to reach that goal.

    But they act in a way that sacrifices short-term profit in order to reach that goal. So it leads some people to think that profit isn't what they really care about.

    I think what they really want is power, and profit is one way of obtaining power.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  32. Arguments and more arguments by erroneus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. Stealing is wrong but so too is lying. They are both 'not good' and they are certainly not at all the same thing. That said, I'd like to assert that making copies is not stealing. It is called something else but it's not stealing.

    2. This only makes an [entertainment source/type] mroe popular so it's actually good. If the people who control the rights to the material in question thought so, they probably wouldn't be spending money on lawyers to combat the activity. It's more likely that they see this activity as a way to make more money and are doing what they can to contain it and make a profit. The proliferation of unsanctioned copies of entertainment material lowers the value of commercial sponsorship and therefore threatens to decrease the REAL product they are selling, which is advertising space/time. Whether the problem is real or merely perceived as such, sponsors will be less willing to spend their advertising dollars on a medium that is devalued due to people using alternative venues.

    The **AA groups are a bunch of liars making false claims that making and distributing unsanctioned copies of entertainment material is somehow hurting the people we admire the most -- the entertainers. It's not true. Tons of math and logic has been applied to show that the opposite is true. It is, however, contrary to the **AA's interests in that the components that offer value to those groups are being affected. (Again, advertising) (Another point to note, unlike trademark, copyright does not get 'diluted' by ingoring infringement.) I think the **AA's should be held accountable for their deceit in the form of a civil suit... I wonder how successful that would be but it can't be legal to go about spreading lies in order to support their aims. The truth [of devalued adjacent revenues] might not win the sympathy of the public, but it would certainly fly in court.

    The public wants what it wants. The enterprise wants what it wants. The differences will be set, settled and re-settled over and over again.

  33. Is MythTV fair use? by roystgnr · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Unless the torrent you're downloading contains commercials, including those from your local market, you are paying for fuck-all. You actually believe the $0.20 per month SCIFI gets from you entitles you to their entire lineup, commercial-free?

    On my computer, I get Sci-Fi's entire lineup, commercial free, by pressing a "skip" button whenever a commercial starts and jumping immediately to the resumed show. I know that function's either hidden or nonexistant on commercial PVRs, but it's really only an incremental improvement on "mute" and "fast forward" anyway. Even permanently cutting out commercials on programs I want to archive is something that's always been possible for anyone with two VCRs and too much time on their hands.

    So is what I'm doing unethical? Morally wrong but allowed via legal loophole? Illegal?

    I hope not. If TV channel owners are expecting me to watch those commercials, they probably ought to have me sign something to that effect. On the other hand, if the Sci-Fi channel gets 20% of my viewing time but 0.4% of my cable bill, perhaps I'm not the one with whom they should be renegotiating a contract.

  34. Ponderosa in space by baomike · · Score: 2, Funny

    I have avoided it, I still have images of Lorne Greene. I keep waiting for Hoss to hop out of a space ship.

    1. Re:Ponderosa in space by vsprintf · · Score: 2, Funny

      I keep waiting for Hoss to hop out of a space ship.

      You can stop avoiding it. I hate to break the news, but Hoss died -- over 30 years ago. It was a reaction to the MSG that Hop Sing put in all the food.

  35. The REAL problem with that analogy.... by Scrameustache · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...is that it is mindnumbingly irrational.
    "I go to a convenience store and use my Star Trek Replication Device to copy a can of Diet Coke, without taking away the existing Diet Coke. I like it so much that the next day, I replicate a case. I tell my friend that I like Diet Coke, and he replicates his own case. Now none of us buy Diet Coke, and they go bankrupt. Noone will bother inventing new soft drinks anymore, since there's no profit to be made."

    The whole "this is profitable" argument relies that a chain of events leading up to more sales (or other money-generating events like ad impressions).


    If you have Star Trek Replication Technology. You also have the Star Trek Socialist Techno-Eutopia that goes with it, in which there is no money, and no RIAA.
    Q. E. D.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  36. Re:Same old, same old by Scrameustache · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's wrong with it is that the people aren't offering you a chance to try before you buy. In order to try before you buy, you have to steal a copy from the owners. It's kind of sad that you don't see anything wrong with that.

    There is wrong in that: The owners are wrong.

    If you wanted to turn this around into an argument that says, "Hey, content providers should offer this as a service," that would be fine. I'd be right there with you. But using it to say "It's okay to take things" just isn't right.

    It's ok to borrow things, as long as you do it without causing the owner to be unable to use it if he wants to use it, and you don't dammage or wear it out in the process.

    I can't believe we're still having the old and tired "copying/theft" argument: Unauthorised use, yes, but you don't take it away from them, therefore it isn't theft. I never bought as much music as I did during the napster haydays, I was sampling music, buying the ones I liked. They called me a thief for it! Now I want them bankrupt... corrupt bastards.

    --

    You can't take the sky from me...

  37. Yes Of Course by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    ...and all the male fans of the male Starbuck are, of course, gay.

  38. Cure for male pattern baldness by GCP · · Score: 4, Funny

    I think they DID find a cure. Didn't Picard win the Sexiest Man Alive contest in People Magazine one year? The "cure" for male pattern baldness in the 23rd Century is apparently what it has always been: power, fame, or fortune.

    --
    "Those who have never entered upon scientific pursuits know not a tithe of the poetry by which they are surrounded."
  39. Ads by ucblockhead · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If TV producers had brains, what they'd do is supply free downloads of their own, with ads, requiring only that you fill out a survey. If they were to do that, they could do really spiffy ad-targetting that is impossible with network TV.

    The thing about good ad targetting is that people are more likely to watch the ad and more likely to buy the advertised product. In other words, if the people making these shows stopped fighting the internet and started using the internet, they could actually make more money on ads.

    But they're too wrapped up in old models that are hard to maintain in modern times. But someone will do it, make a mint, and put them out of business.

    --
    The cake is a pie
    1. Re:Ads by ucblockhead · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bittorrent wouldn't allow them to target ads.

      --
      The cake is a pie
  40. Stop lying by Quattro+Vezina · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Talk about making up bullshit.

    The GPL exists so as to subvert copyright. By creating the GPL, RMS intended to turn copyright against itself. The GPL itself is an act of disrespect to copyright.

    The only hypocrisy is in your mind.

    --
    I support the Center for Consumer Freedom
  41. That makes sense by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative
    I live in a country where Farscape never aired. I live in a country where BattleStar Gallactica 2003 never aired. And I've seen both series, from downloads of the internet. I would pay to get Farscape on DVD (as released in America), and I would pay to get BSG 2003 on DVD. And also, I would pay to get Sci-fi or something similar here. Why? Because the series rocks. I have some friends interested on Farscape, and they too would pay to get it on DVD. They would also be interested on BSG 2003 if they've saw it.


    Bottom line is... Limiting DVD releases geographically is almost as dumb as trying not to exploit the exposure of an internet release, and getting the big bucks out of the premiere. Keeping people all over the world on hold might not work as well as feeding them what they want at an acceptable cost. I definitely would pay for it.

  42. Exactly by Darth23 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It's not about money, it's about power. The pirates, illegal distributors and downloaders are all part of the Rebel media Alliance. They must be destroyed so that we can bring ORDER to the Galaxy.

    --

    -------- In Soviet Russia, "Soviet Russia" sigs hate Slashdot.

  43. Re:Unbiased much? by SteelV · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You guys are so immature it's sickening. Sorry that someone dares to make a comment that you see has threatening your favorite TV show... It's not like I said it sucks, I just said that that was bad news reporting to say it's the best show ever. I'm getting so sick of this web site. Every 3 news items are really interesting, and have great posts/comments, but it's not worth it to have to deal with fanbois left and right... I wish there was a site like slashdot for IMPORTANT news for nerds.

  44. Interview with the article's author by blibbler · · Score: 3, Informative

    There was an interview with the article's author on the media report last week. You can listen to the audio or read the transcript here

  45. Re:Same old, same old by DavidTC · · Score: 2, Informative
    It's ok to borrow things, as long as you do it without causing the owner to be unable to use it if he wants to use it, and you don't dammage or wear it out in the process.

    For people who think that's wrong: It's not.

    To steal something you have to intend to deprive the owner of it.

    While this obviously means you can't accidently steal something (Which is true for a lot of crimes. You can't accidently trespass, either.), it also means it's not theft if you honestly were borrowing something with the intent to return it before the owner wanted it.

    Of course, the problem is proving, in court, that you intended to return it. That really only works if there was no logical way for you to have kept it. Maybe if you walked off down the street with someone's pet elephant or something, but normally that doesn't work.

    And you have to demonstrate you intended to return it before they would have wanted it back, which basically means 'before they noticed it missing'. Note 'intended'...you don't have to really get it back, just intend to. If you get hit by a car while returning it, you're covered.

    This is also why walking up and destroying something of someone else's is called 'theft'. You're intending to deprive them of their property, even though you, yourself, are not intending to keep it.

    However, as copyright infringement is not theft, there is no exception with 'I intended to delete it' or whatever the analogy would be.

    --
    If corporations are people, aren't stockholders guilty of slavery?
  46. Re:Exactly by kz45 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Because taking OSS and using it in a closed application is done to make money. The example of copying a can of Coke isn't being done to make money. The guy isn't going to replicate the can a billion times and start his own Coke dealership. That would destroy Coke. Also the Coke can isn't "free" to begin with

    this analogy is wrong. PearPC does not see any negative effects when cherry OS uses their source code. They do not lose any money, because pearPC isn't selling their source code. The original source code is still there, so people can easily use it for any similar project.

    Then again, when companies sell a 2 Liter at the same price as a 20oz I have to wonder at the actual cost going into making these soda

    it's all about convenience.

  47. Oh, the irony... by Khyber · · Score: 3, Informative

    And to think, about 20+ years ago, Metallica credited their rise to success mainly in part to the bootleggers who copied their shows and albums, and distributed them. Then, come the Napster era, Metallica turned right around on the very same thing that brought them to fame to begin with. I wonder how long it's going to take before the exact same thing happens in this case?

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  48. Author argues that people won't pay for TV content by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Informative

    I have an extensive DVD libary that proves that he's a cretin. Next.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
  49. The problems isn't piracy. by StormKrow · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The problem is desire.

    Fans desire to see the show as soon as humanly possible. Where the production company screwed up, they released it in the UK first. Myself personally, I saw the entire first season thanks to torrents before it ever aired in the US.

    No offense to the people overseas, but Battlestar Galactica is an AMERICAN creation. (not to be politcal here...but it's blasphemy to release "our" shows over there for you guys first, imho).

    Anyway, back to the point. The problem isn't piracy. People are going to share television shows and movies regardless. If not thru IRC, thru Gnutella, if not thru Gnutella, thru Kazaa, if not thru Kazaa, thru BitTorrents, if not thru BitTorrents, they'll find another way. The MPAA is a victim of its own success. By pissing off and alienating every single person out there, it does nothing but fuel people's resolve.

    Sure there are going to be people who are going to try to get something for nothing. That's true in any society. There are those of us who not only download things to be the "first" to see them, but we still pay our $8.50 at the box office to see it in the theatre. SW Ep2, I saw 2 weeks before release, did that stop me from going to see it in the theatre? No. In fact I saw it twice. (not because it was good, just because I was taking others to see it.)

    What the MPAA doesn't understand, is that some "art" is art...some art is utter crap. If people like what they see, they WILL spend the cash to get the "real thing". Unless they're a broke college kid, and what does it matter if they see it for free on the internet, or see it for free on television 3 years later. The "but we have commercials for network showings"...does cut it, because nobody pays attention to those anyway. Darth Vader choking a red M&M doesn't make me want to buy more M&M's, (in fact it makes me want to choke a muppet.)

    Truth be told, it makes not one iota's difference whether people watch things for free, or pay their money, the corporations still dump their profits into promotions, people still buy their products, most without the influence of advertisement. If things are of quality, that's where people spend their money. If a show is good, and someone downloads it, watches it sans commercials, it's not going to affect their spending habits.

    This is turning into a rant, so I'll just leave it at that. (on a final note, F' the MPAA)

    --
    Who cares about the ozone layer?...thanks to CFC's I can write my name......IN CHEESE!!!
  50. 6? pfft... by Sgt_Jake · · Score: 2, Funny

    Seven was so much hotter.