Slashdot Mirror
Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals?
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
The guy had several high speed fans attached to his body, something about overclocking and caffeine. They proved a real distraction to the other workers...
My secretary had a problem with my Prince Albert, I fired her.
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Or get the job first, then dye the hair or whatever. Once you're in the door and they value you as an employee they won't care if your hair is a different colour.
Do whatever you will to or for your body, your appearance, but do so at your own risk. Since tattoos are essentially permanent, think about long term goals, ramifications, etc., and what some "permanent" might mean for those goals.
The OP talks about some places being "cool" with tattoos, piercings, etc. That may be true, but that is only a snapshot of today's standards. During the dotcom heyday, with IT "specialists" (most really weren't, n'est-ce pas?) the standard for acceptable appearance was "anything goes". We need you, and we still love you even though your hair is filthy and goes to your waist, and you have tattoos.
But, I worked for a large corporation for 21 years... when I started, the dress code was un-stated, but tacitly enforced... you had to wear dress pants (absolutely no jeans), dress shirt, and at least a sports coat (yes, the tie was optional). Over time, as IT became the place to work and demand for workers was high I saw this dress code disappear and the office soon looked like the stretch pants, khaki cutoff shorts, flip-flops and sandals capital of the United States!
Fast forward to the dotcom crash... new management, and new dress codes, this time actually formally enforced. Yeah, things change.
So, think about it... tattoos go a long way... and regardless of right or wrong, some people react negatively to them, and regardless of whether you like that or not, it's there! (I know of a very close friend who lost out to a med-school... she found out later it was influenced by her tattoos.) (Also, I think this has even passed muster in court of law -- I think Starbucks actually has a dress code and appearance code that was challenged by someone who had a pierced something, and Starbucks prevailed.)
For those who need further prodding and convincing, read John Malloy's Dress for Success. Whether personally you like or don't like people's reactions to how you look at least Malloy will give you some empirical perspective to work with...
So the leather tank top with the see-through nipple windows is an no-no?
I always save my last mod point to mod up a good troll. You people are too serious.
Hey, it's helped me in the past!
One Friday, I had gotten my tongue pierced, by Monday, my tongue had swelled up so much, I could barely talk.
We were in a meeting that day, I received my assignments for the day with a slight mumble grumble - I guess my boss thought I was overtly stressed or just not happy with what I had to do.
He called me into the conference room and gave me a 150% raise, telling me how good he thought I was to the company and that he was so glad I was with them. I don't think he knew about the tongue ring for weeks...
The next month, I dyed my hair green...
Dada Mail - Program, Art Project or Absurdity?
I can't believe the number of posts on this site talking about how "unprofessional" even an earring on a male looks. Are we really still that wrapped up in gender identity that even a gold stud on a guy is a threat?
The arguement could be made that clients or managers could have the sort of archaic, narrow-minded ideas which would necessitate very conservative attire at the workplace; however, I don't expect so much of that attitude itself on a site where the majority of the posters are geeks. I thought we were a more open-minded lot than that.
This is the same attitude which used to force men to wear ties and women to wear dresses. It's the same attitude which made people be angry with the "long" bowl-cuts the Beatles sported when they came to the USA.
I'm not saying the attitude doesn't exist, or that you can currently do what you want and get away with it. All I'm saying is that there's no reason smart people like all of us should help it persist.
Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
I'm not really into facial hardware, but I figure it's your face, you can do what you want with it. On the other hand, keep in mind that I'm the one who's got to look at it. "Be liberal in what you accept and conservative in what you produce" has been a good concept for a long time. It's probably applicable here too.
I see your point. And keep my tat covered up at work, but any corporation that ACTUALLY wants the only kind of diversity that really matters (in the survival sense), which is diversity of viewpoint, should expect that people who think in 'different' modes might have a different appearance. If I was hiring coders, designers or marketers I think that piercings and outrageous tats would be s sign of 'out of the box' thinking (well, more of a indicator if the possibility that the modified one was an original thinker, they might just be a following sheep, but at least they are following something besides Bschool clonishness.)
.02 worth.
Just my
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts."
Dress code at a company I worked at was "business casual", with no reference to ink at all.
Then one day one of our desk-side techs (who really was a nice guy, by the way), got a complaint reported by a user. It was a little old lady who litterally was scared of the tech because of the ink on his arms. (a guitar, if memory serves) Instantly a new dress code went into place stating no visible tatoos. He was banished to long sleeves for the rest of his time at the company.
The moral: In a consulting company it ain't the boss who sets dress code. The client does.
-MrLogic
A wise person once told me that the difference between a good choice and a bad choice is that a good choice gives you more choices.
Considering how many types of (strech) pierchings and tatoos are difficult to reverse, why would someone want to get one? What kind of long term plan/goal does it promote?
Just to be nitpickin...
The military does require that its members be capable of presenting a professional apperance. Tats, while the traditional mark of someone about to kick your butt, are not allowed on skin that is visible while wearing a long-sleeved dress uniform. Peircings are limited to women (1 pair, in the ears. Conservative single stud or single pearl. No hoops or danglies), or off duty and far off post.
--Cam
All jocks think about is sports. All nerds think about is sex.
Just observe any film of late 60's NASA engineers and you have all the style tips you need for success. Buzz cut, white shirt, pocket protector.
Learn it. Know it. Live it.
No, he appears to be saying that individuality comes from within. Anything else is just fashion.
Differentiate yourself from the other "dotted lines drones" with things that are really important: your character and actions.
I've known people who work for MS who were pierced from head to toe and I've always thought that to be unprofessional, distracting and quite honestly a bit repulsive. Clean yourself up and show up to work looking like a decent human being people.
In some cultures of human beings, it's considered indecent if one is not pierced.
If you want to be taken seriously and treated professionally where you work, unless it's a small company run by other geeks, you need to dress and look clean and professional. It's still a fact that people judge you based on how you look, and if you're in an office environment surrounded by people in slacks and shirts and other professional attire, you'll look very out of place with a bunch of piercings or tatoos. What it says to coworkers is that you don't care enough about the job to even APPEAR professional.
Now, I know some people here are going "Oh for the love of God! What century are we in that we still have to conform to such out-dated societal norms!? We must break free... blah blah blah" To those people I say "Grow up!" Your days as a rebellious member of some imagined counter-culture pretty much end when you're out on your own making your way in the world.
Yes, there are places still where there is no dress code... but they're the exception as opposed to the rule. If you want a professional job, you have to play by the professional rules set out by employers. Body mods, strange haircuts/colors etc. are a risk you may choose to take, but like all risks you have to realize there are consequences. You can't just run around and do whatever you want and expect everyone to be cool with it. When you work for someone else, you play by their rules.
Don't like it? Then I offer a modified stock Slashdot response for anyone who ever complains about a piece of software:
"If you don't like it, start your own company and set the rules how you like them! Otherwise, sit down"
It's a sign of maturity. Barring religious reasons, one should not wear any form of *visible* modifications outside of those that are generally acceptable (e.g. lobe piercings in women). Anything else shows you're immature and trying to be "different" when really you're just another idiot.
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Well said!
One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago. In many ways they're more sophisticated, have more general knowledge, and may even be smarter, but what they are not is "adult." College age people are much more like teenagers now than young adults. Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline.
Where am I going with this? These days adolescence seems to last until about 35, with all the juvenile behavior that goes with it.
The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Really, who isn't part of repressed minority now-a-days?
Ever since the 60s, if you can claim to be part of some repressed minority, you get to claim the moral highground in any argument and the facts of the argument are no longer relevant to you. Anyone how disagrees with you (no matter how ridiculous and asinine your position is) is The Man, trying to keep you down.
We live in a time where rudeness is rewarded.
And "professional" and "mature" would be what? Indifferentiability. It's not about personal expression or the lack thereof, it's about whether labor is personal or commoditized. I refuse to make myself a commodity. Years ago I went out and got a prominent tattoo on the outer side of my wrist precisely because as I was entering my twenties I began to feel as though the very notion of "profssionalism" was really code for "you must sublimate your identity to the company, and credit to it any personal triumphs you would otherwise have had."
Any company that I want to work for needs to want me just as badly. Not "some random worker who looks generally professional," not someone who's ph 7 and completely neutral, but me. I kick asses and make waves. If a process is wrong or a product sucks, I'm going to do my damndest to fix it, to talk to the board about it, put together a team to fix it, or even pull it if necessary, because any project that passes over my desk is a reflection on me and I'm not going to hide behind the company name. I take it personally, and my identity will never be second to that of the "team," who I also hope to be made of unique and powerful minds, not just a bunch of ants or yes-men.
If I'm not valuable enough to a company to cause them to keep me regardless of inoffensive (doesn't smell bad, doesn't hurt others) variations in my appearance, chances are that I'll eventually be treated very badly by them anyway, since they'll want me as nothing more than an interchangeable part in the machine and I'm not one. For some companies, the employee who owns his work is a definite asset, and I think you're more likely to get that in people who have a more personalized appearance.
As a part of my job (editor for a major nonfiction publisher), I now review piles and piles of resumes for various kinds of posts. Maybe this only happens in the creative community, but I find that there are at least as many times when a person's "unique" attributes excite me as there are when they turn me off.
Usually it has to do with competence: those that come across as smart and competent while having things like tattoos and piercings I tend to see as even better candidates because of their ability to pull of an unorthodox look while kicking ass. Those that come across as less than ideal skills wise tend to look even more foolish with tattoos and piercings.
So maybe the truth is that green hair or giant earlobe plugs aren't so much indicators as they are exaggerators: they make the worse look worse, and the better look better.
STOP . AMERICA . NOW
I have an appearance issue that I'm sure makes me less employable: I walk funny. Not a big deal, just a minor neurological problem. I'm sure people look at me and ask themselves "Is that guy on drugs or what?" I've thought of carrying a cane, even though I don't even know how to use one, just to emphasize that it's a minor medical disability, not an effect of a debauched lifestyle. But I'm sure it'd come off as a pose. So I just live with it. Life is often unfair, and it's not productive to get self-righteous about it.
When my generation is in power, things will likely be different.
Yes, of course, because the baby boomers were always clean-cut professional types who never did anything to rebel against authority.
Risky.
A +5 leather tank top of bewitchment usually works only on co-workers and clients of the opposite sex. Otherwise, it become a -5 leather tank top of unemployment.
You could always wear it with a nice jacket, in which case its charisma effect would probably be neutral, but it might still help your armor class.
It should also be obvious that, usually, only female players can wear it to positive charisma effect, except in very rare kinds of businesses.
Let me just say first, that I have no piercings or tats. However, I find what you have written to be discriminatory. Would you like to be denied a job just because you were of a different religion? In fact, you even go so far as to call such things pagan. Yes, bodily modification is against some religions (most notably Judeochristian religions), but so what?? In addition, you say "Of course, you masochists/pagans like that, but Christians don't.," which first insults anyone reading this who has a different religion, and second assumes that everyone is Christian. I am not, and I feel insulted. And, how does it show that the wearer has low morals? Your comment just shows how narrow of a view you have. It's time to wake up to the real world. Not everyone is as narrow-minded as you, and that does not make them bad. I dislike piercings on a man, but I never let that influence my judgment.
This sig is provided "as is" without warranty of any kind.
The tatoo I got in the Navy never hindered me either. But my penile implant which isn't usually noticable did me in. One day I was sitting kind of funny with one leg underneath me and jiggling the other leg while I was debugging some code. It evidently was compressing the pump inside the scrotum a little at a time when I did that and over the course of an hour my member became completely erect. Not being sexully excited at the time I didn't notice that it had happened because my mind was so fixed on the programming problem I was solving. Well my pants are kind of loose because I recently grew out of my 46 inch waist pants and now I am sitting comfortably in some 48 inchers. So when I finally got up to stretch my legs and get a couple of mountain dews in the lunchroom it must have looked like I had a ferret in my trousers. And I couldn't see it when I stood up because well... when you start wearing 48 inch pants you'll understand. I got some pretty strange looks especially when I passed through the lobby and said hello to the new receptionist. There were also some visitors from japan waiting there and they just laughed nervously and bowed. I stopped and bowed back at them and tried to talk to them but they didn't speak any english. I can only imagine what they were saying to each other. I probably would have gone the rest of the day unaware except that jerk from the shipping dock was in the lunchroom and he made some crude remarks that gave it away. I had to squeeze into corner beside the soda machines and reach down into my pants to reach the pump. (You have to hold the release on the side to make it deflate.) So every since then the guys in the office have been calling me Omar the tent maker. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean but I figure my chances for promotion are pretty much shot now.
Call me crazy, but I feel a far more comfortable dealing with people dressed as they want to be dressed, with whatever visible body modifications they have. In fact, I feel far more comfortable dealing with people who have piercings and/or visible tattoos, despite having none myself. Why? Because far more often than not, that type of work environment makes the employees comfortable and happy with their job, which is the best way to ensure they do their job well. Most of the employees at the best pizza place in this county (actually rated best by the newspapers, not just IMO) have tattoos, piercings, and non-standard haircuts, and they do their jobs well.
When I worked in customer service myself, I got very relieved whenever I got to deal with people who were visibly off-beat, because contrary to popular belief, they tend to be nice people. They go by their own standards instead of forcing themselves to conform to someone else's standards, which means less stress for them, and get this: most people would rather deal with someone who's actually friendly than someone being forced to fake it. Less stress = more relaxed = generally easier to deal with.
I'm also rather saddened that some would call body modification immature. Though I'm sure some immature people modify themselves, it is by no means an indicator; as implied above, I've found a greater degree of maturity in those who are into it than those against it. It's not usually whoring for attention any more than wearing a shirt because you find it aesthetic. It is an aspect of individuality, and individuality is what drives humanity, like it or not. Entrepeneurs and inventors aren't conformists, and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. We're humans, not robots. Frankly, I'd rather my potential jobs be replaced by machines than have to make myself as machinelike as possible to obtain and keep those jobs.
By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
I agree. I live in a small (pop. 50K) town in Idaho; however, I work for a HUGE "business casual" corporation that set up shop here. I have gauged ear lobes and tats on my arm and the back of my calf. I've never had anyone give me flack for either.
Its all common sense. I don't flaunt either, and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves. I think its all relative.
I know what you're thinking. Did I forward 65,535 packets or 65,536 packets?
Top Story: Normal People Don't Like Freaks
I fear not the modders.
Small business, the type of business that supposedly makes the US operate, does not willingly accept freaks. They tolerate IT types (people with poor social skills, and perhaps less than ideal grooming habits), but they aren't going to willingly choose to employ people who look like freaks (to them).
It's JobHunting101: All else being equal, the applicant who makes the best impression gets the job. Now if the place you're applying to is full of people with "tats" and noserings, then you're set. But since that hasn't exactly caught on with normal people, your chances of appearing as though you would "fit in" are slim.
If you're a freak, hide it until you get the job (and ideally until you prove that you're invaluable).
.sigs are for post^Hers.
Like anonymously flaming complete strangers on Slashdot?
Still conforming, but thinking they're oh-so cutting edge.
Yup, that's them.
"and know when it is appropriate to remove the CBR's or wear long sleeves."
Was the interview one of those times?
Nobody I have worked with having:
Long hair; Piercings; or Tatoos
has yet been nearly as incompetent, lazy, or idiotic as the former crew.
And yet they haven't figured out how to take control from the inept people who dress and look "normal."
However, buddy-buddy golfers hire more buddy-buddy golfers, and the cycle continues.
The real problem is that you can't get anywhere in life if you take a defeatist attitude, as is the case with much nonconformism. Many (not all of course) are more concerned with being different than with the results of doing so. That's fine, but you can't have your cake and eat it too. You can't shout, "I'm different," and "treat me the same," in the same breath. Obviously it's unconstitutional to discriminate on the basis of certain fundamental differences (sex, race, and religion), but, religious arguments aside, those are things that are beyond one's realm of control.
The nonconformists don't want to be cogs, and think the conformists are blind for not realizing the part they play. In actuality the conformists are fully aware of their cog status, but realize it's the lowest risk/reward scenario, as exemplified by by your vicious cycle argument.
It could even be argued that the conformists have the greater sense of self, since they don't have the overwhelming need to show the world that they're an individual. In reality of course, 20% are leaders, and 80% are followers, regardless of what color their hair is, or how many orifaces have or have not been punctured.
But what it comes down to is the idea that bring professional is about putting your job ahead of yourself and, like it or not, that's all encompassing. Should it matter what color your hair is? Most people inherintly think it shouln't, although they can't explain why except to say "it just shouldn't." Meanwhile both groups feel that the other looks down on them (Note that this isn't really necessarily the case, just the perception), and as long as there's a perception of animosity, it's going to be a barrier. That's just the price to pay for intentionally being "different."
https://www.eff.org/https-everywhere
you're an adult now
Yep, totally. And the funny thing about being an adult is being able to choose what you want to do, what to wear and where to work. You want a job at IBM? Then you'll have to adjust to the company's codes.
But it's also stupid to think you can't work in a professional environment unless you look a certain way. In fact it's bullshit. It all depends on what your professional company expects from you.
I wear steel tubes in my ears. I have a long goatee and sideburns. I wear tshirts and jeans. I don't have tattoos yet, but I won't be hindered by my job when it comes to deciding what and where they'll be.
Do you know why I can?
Because it's not what I am expected to be like. Because I don't interact with customers. I don't meet with partners. I'm not an executive and don't want to be. I write code. Basically the only time I'm called out of my office is for status meetings.
Most importantly though, I work for a very liberal tech company. Our execs don't judge you by what you look like or what you wear. I've had hallway chats with high-level VPs while wearing WTF? and "Every time you download music god kills a kitten" shirts and it just isn't an issue.
However, if for some reason I had to give a talk or teach a class to people outside out company, I'd of course choose appropriate attire and look professional, but professional doesn't have to mean being anal-retentive, wearing button-up shirts and kaki slacks.
BUT, if I worked for a company I really liked and they changed the dress code to be button ups and a tie, fine. It's my choice to either work there or find new work. I can adapt, I'm not physically attached to my clothing. The earrings would be a little weird because the holes are kind of large, but I'm sure I could find a solution if I had to.
But I don't.
R(k)
I love these guys who think they're rebelling...
/one/ piece).
My kid went through this when she was about 13, I talked to her about it and she told me it was how she and her friends expressed their individuality.
I asked her if they were sitting around one day and someone said "Hey, let's all be different...together". She thought about that for about two weeks and figured out that she was better off deciding for herself how to be an individual.
BTW, before anyone decides they know who I am, I've got tattoos that were old enough to drink in the last century (and I prolly got 60 hrs in on
Ah, I miss the '70's. Harley's were cheap, weed was free and only dirtbags had tattoos...and you could trust them with your money or your guns or anything else, except your old lady.
I had to go to the piercer to get new balls and have her put them back in.
Although I agree. I have dreads and both ears pierced, and I got three jobs offered to me for this summer. So I don't think it's really much of an issue.
- A
'quite frankly.. body 'modifications' as the article refered to them, are looked at by many others as 'body mutilations'. While I am all for people having the freedom to do whatever they want, this actually means 'being able to do whatever they want so long as they dont infringe on the freedoms of everyone else'. Subjecting others to the display of such mutilation crosses the line. A similar example is if I started refusing to take a shower every day I went to work - my 'right to stink' is overridden by other's 'right to breath fresh air'. Besides if you really analyze it, puncturing your body is fundamentally disturbing - in fact I think that the people that do this, do it just to get this shock value' from this disturbance they give others. They're basically insecure and think it makes them 'cool' - when in fact they've just de-sensitized themselves so much they think they like it. Whatever. There's limits to what you can do in society and be treated respectfully. When you are enourmously fat, you smell bad, or you insist on puncturing your body with little hooks, you're going to get treated differently and that's just the way it is - the majority of people dont want to be subjected to that type of nonsense.
-- NeTMoNGeR
Here is some good info. This covers both tattoos and piercings.
Disconnect and self-destruct, one bullet at a time.
it is people like you who drag down our entire nation. Your "clean yourself up" line is a load of bull shit.
"I find it pleasant to work in a homogeneous environment where everyone looks the same." Did you skip that all those classes in elemtenary school where they teach tolerance, what prejudice is, that its bad, and about diversity. Perhaps you'd be happier in a slave labor camp in some foreign country where everyone looks the same, or is forced to lest they be persecuted, segragated or killed for doing so.
The glory of America is that A. we all dont have to think like you, and B. that we dont all think like you. People fought and died for these rights. Whether or not you or I have any opinion as to their appearance is irrelevant. You're entitled to your opinion that you dont like the appearence, but that's all that you are entitled to. While I for one don't find the appearence to be preferential for myself, they have every right to it, and i'll defend that right to the end. Becuase you never know when it will be my opinion or preference or whatnot that some pompous douche bag such as yourself finds "undesireable" and then tries to outlaw it. The only thing unprofessional is thinking that you somehow know better than everyone else what is right.. personnally i find your attitude to be unprofessional, distracting and repulsive. clean yourself up and act like a decent american... notice how this was posted by an anonymous coward too?
"Jazz isn't dead, it just smells funny" ~Frank Zappa
EdelFactor
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
Ummm... out of the box thinking? Tattoos and piercings are considered trendy now. Is Lindsey Lohan "out of the box" for having "la Bella Vita" tattood on her back? Or is she just another girl that's following a trend? I'd hazard a guess and say that the vast majority of those that have tattoos now are just following one trend or another. And following trends is most definitely not out of the box.
I worked at a startup company where we had a stunningly beautiful intern who wore tight knit tops, no bra and no need for one though she was quite well endowed, and had a variety of nipple piercing jewelry (changed daily.)
It really lowered the productivity of some of my coworkers and most of them could not look her in the eye when they talked to her.
It was no problem for me; I've been hanging around with pierced S&M folks since the early 80s! Been there. Done that.
Dog is my co-pilot.
I went from bleach blonde, to red, to bald in a month
Now that would look awesome under time-lapse photography. It would look like your head had gone into critical meltdown.
I agree that yeah, it's your company and your rules, but at one point you say it's not mainstream but then you claim that it's something only "sheep" do... Which is it?
As for the dumping gas on your head and lighting it to show that you're a leader... have you tried this yourself? If not you must be like the rest of the sheep. Can't realize how ridiculous you just made yourself look? This is the kind of stuff teenaged kids hear from irrational parents, not from a businessman that they can respect.
All in all, it's a misconception on your part that makes you think that people getting ink done are doing it to express their individuality. I'm sure some do but I can tell you right now that 90% of the people I know have no idea that I have had a fair amount of tattoo work done. I did it for myself.
Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
He's a tattoo artist.
Last week, we had a very interesting lecture by one of the heads of company's Client Service Group on client meetings/presentations.
At one point, she said something quite wise about appearances, that is a perfect answer to the article's question:
"When a client leaves a meeting with you, the client should remember WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT how you looked".
As a background, I work for a software development company that sells to large financial companies; many of us "geeks" get to meet clients so the lecture was very popular.
To add to that, my own view is "If you need to distinguish yourself from other people by what you look like, there's a big chance you have no other beneficial qualities to dinstinguish yourself with". There are exceptions to this, but not many in my experience.
-DVK
--
"Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."
- Human Resources Department judgment on Fred Astaire's Hollywood screen test in the early 1930s.
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
I'm late to this discussion, but I'll make my statement.
Businesses should be allowed to set whatever dress code they want. Don't like it? Don't work there. Given that I believe that businesses in general shouldn't have to hire anyone they don't want for any reason, I suppose I'm in a minority.
Seriously, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. It's that simple. I don't think anyone out there that gets a piercing or a tatoo or whatever doesn't know that a lot of people, right or wrong, have issues with that.
I have my ear pierced and while it's really no big deal nowadays, there are some places that it's an issue. You know what? I have no desire to deal with or work with a company that's that hung up on an earring. They're tight ass pricks. That's their right. It's my right not to want to deal with them and work elsewhere.
The biggest problem I have with the "different" or "extreme" crowd is that some of them think it's *their* right to do whatever they want and that everyone around them should just deal with it. Yeah? Fuck you guys. Do what you want. I'm all for it. However, quit telling *other* people who they should feel and think. Do what you but be willing to accept the fucking consequences.
Businesses exist, for the most part, to make money. If your cute little lip ring or tatoo impedes that, why should they hire you? Even if you're skilled, it's likely there's someone else who is just as skilled who isn't outside that business's comfort zone. And again, if someone is going to get that caught up over a lip ring, do you really *want* to work there? I wouldn't.
If your response is, "Well I *need* X job." Take your piercings out. If you've got tats it's likely you know the possible consequnces when you got them. If you didn't, you're probably not bright enough to be qualified for any place with a dress code. Beggars can't be choosers. Come on people, this is real life. I'm not telling anyone to give up their "individuality" or personal "expression." I'm not telling anyone to "grow up" because I personally have almost no issues with tats or piercings. (Although there is a point of excess that even bothers me. Deal with it.) Hell, I'm the kind of person who would lose clients before firing or not hiring someone based on appearance. However, that's *my* choice and it's not my place to other people hiring how they need to run *their* business.
Dunno about him, but personally I don't mind that. I have no piercings or tattoos, but I still do tell my employer that no, I don't ever want a promotion to management. Been there, done that, decided that management is not something I like to do.
Yes, I can occasionally talk to a customer, or draw a flowchart on a whiteboard in front of an audience. But the keyword is: occasionally. I'd very much sit at a computer than spend every day in meetings, corporate power games, or trying to make Wally finally actually do _some_ work, _any_ work. I very much like it when he's not really my problem.
Or to put it otherwise: if I wanted to do either management or marketting, I'd have went to a business college. I chose computers for a reason: that's what I like to do.
So other people will get promoted instead. Good. That I like.
So I've had people I've recruited end up my boss. I'm ok with that. They probably deserved it too, with the amount of show-business they put up for the boss instead of actually working or actually learning programming. But anyway, it still means that I do the job I like.
Some people seem to assume an uni-dimensional rat race and that money is the only thing that matters. They'd do _anything_ for money, or for some stupid social acceptance goal like "promotions are good". They just have to chase some stupid goal that will actually make their life _worse_, much like dogs chase a car: never stopping to think what they'd do if they actually caught one.
At one point it's not even a promotion any more, it's just really switching carreer tracks to a completely new line of work. A new work which doesn't even resemble the old one, and you're not even prepared for, and you're probably incompetent for or don't have the right personality type for. (E.g., an introvert won't really enjoy a life where 8 hours a day are spent talking to everyone, from making sure what the team is doing, to meetings with clients, to meetings with higher level management, etc.)
It's called "Peter's Principle".
Is it worth it? Is it what you _really_ want to do with your life? Would you switch jobs to _anything_, including driving a garbage truck or shovelling manure, if it paid better and was fashionably disguised as a promotion?
Well, if you can honestly answer "yes" to that, yeah, you're in the right rat race. Keep up, brown nose, backstab, and don't let the Joneses get a promotion before you do.
If not, well, then you understand why some of us have "quality of life" as the _goal_, and money and promotions are just _means_ to that end. If the trade-off involved in getting those means actually move you farther from the goal, is actually a bad trade-off. One to be avoided.
(Just as examples of such trade-offs: you get more money but at the expense of getting a stress-related ulcer, or doing so much overtime that you don't actually have the time to enjoy that money, or whatever. Was it worth it? Did it really improve your life?)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I have my left ear pierced, has been that way for fifteen years now. Been wearing a simple gold hoop in it almost as long.
One day, I decide to try a new headset for my phone. Complicated over the ear rig, sounds great, light weight, mic sits nicely, whole thing holds on well. But the stupid cable comes out of the bottom and rubs my earring. The tickling was going to drive me insane, so I took out my earring and set it on my desk.
When I came back from lunch, my earring is missing. I ask my coworker of two and a half years
"Alice, have you seen my earring?".
"Your what?"
"Earring. Had it on my desk, it keeps catching on the new phone earpiece so I took it out."
"When did your ears pierced?"
"Ear. Just one. *counting on my fingers* Nine years ago?"
*Strange look. She thinks I'm kidding her*
"You must not wear it to work too often, I've never seen you wear one."
"I've worn it every day. I don't think I've taken it out in a year or two."
*Another strange look.*
"Have a look at the picture on your desk from last years Christmas party."
"Well I'll be da.. You're right. No, I haven't seen it."
So I went over to another coworker's desk. He's been there longer than I have, and has had a cube across from me for four years.
"Bill, you see my earring? I left it on my desk."
"Yours? That was yours?"
"Yeah. Where was it?"
"Oh, I moved it, put it in lost and found at the reception desk. When did you get your ears pierced?"
"Ear...."
*Alice chimes in to be a smart-ass*
"Just his left one. He's had it forever. Didn't you notice?"
"No. Isn't there some stupid policy against that anyway?"
"Dunno. Never asked. Wore it to the interview, don't think I've had it out but once or twice for cleaning since."
*strange look*
*Alice walks over with the picture from her desk*
So I walk up to reception, to see about my earring.
"Hey Barb, grab me my earring out of the lost and found box."
"Get your ears pierced over the weekend? You're not supposed to take them out so soon, and don't let Bob catch you. "...
People just don't notice.
.sig: Now legally binding!
I think you illustrate my point pretty well.
Levitical law prohibits tattoos and 'cutting your body for the dead' right where it prohibits planting two kinds of seed in a field and cutting off the edges of your beard.
Moving onward to actual Christianity, the subject of my post, body piercing and tattooing is not forbidden by the RC, the C of E, the Missouri Synod, the Calvinists, the Episcopalians, nor have I ever personally met a Christian who gives a damn (poor choice of words there perhaps).
Somewhere there are a few slightly wacky sects like the 7th Day Adventists who have a lot of weird Leviticus-inspired rules as well as regular Christian ones, and they might forbid piercing. You may wish to focus on them if that reinforces the opinions you already hold about Christianity, but they're not exactly central to the debate.
They are dwarfed, in fact, by the vast mass of atheist/agnostics like yourself who have strongly-held yet blurry beliefs about Christianity formed from a vague mishmash of web pages and angst.
Now, I'm glad you realize that 'most Christians don't bother with the fiddly bits' -- you've gotten further than the original poster. The next step would be to go and read some stuff about what Christians actually do believe -- both the Catholics and the mainstream Protestants (Lutheran etc) will have lots of fun facts for you about the supercession of the Levitical law.
I really don't want to deliver a generic 'learn something about it before talking!' smackdown here, but... well, let's just leave it hanging in the air
Whence? Hence. Whither? Thither.
Your story illustrates how fully body mods have shifted in our culture from rebellious to conformist. People now get piercing and tattoos because their peers have them, rather than to stand out from their peers. Sorry, but it has become hard for me to look at a marked-up 16-year old and not roll my eyes. The very fact they they succumbed to peer pressure makes me view them as the opposite of the rebel they are trying to portray. It's like wearing an "I AM COOL(TM)" T-shirt. The fact that you think wearing that shirt makes you cool indicates how uncool you really are. Man, there goes my karma.