Slashdot Mirror
Body Modifications Still Hinder IT Professionals?
thedeletekey writes "The Detroit News recently ran an article about body modifications in the workplace. This got me thinking; do body modifications such as tattoos and piercings still hinder IT professionals in the workplace? Or is this a thing of the past, as these types of personal changes have become more common in recent years. In my experience, I've found both stringent dress codes requiring business casual attire, and no visible body modifications, to no dress code at all. What has the rest of the IT world found to be common?"
It's never hindered me - I have pierced ears and visible tats.
The guy had several high speed fans attached to his body, something about overclocking and caffeine. They proved a real distraction to the other workers...
This is 2005...and if you aren't painfully aware...the dot.com boom has been long over...and if you want to be treated professionally, then you need to act AND look professionally. The do-whatever-you-want-club is almost closed at every location it popped up in.
Here is a simple guide:
* Hide the tats.
* Save the piercings for the goth club.
* Use a natural hair color. (man...I wish I could do green at work...)
I'm sure you can think of other examples.
// Agent Green (Ian / IU7 / KB1JQO)
// IEEE 802.3: All 10base Are Belong To Us
The military has no problem with those. There's your new IT opportunity. Of course, it's the military.
Direct away from face when opening.
It's a sign of maturity. Barring religious reasons, one should not wear any form of *visible* modifications outside of those that are generally acceptable (e.g. lobe piercings in women). Anything else shows you're immature and trying to be "different" when really you're just another idiot.
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
For me, if you want to hold a professional job, you need to look professional. That means not covered in tattoos, have 14 different body piercing through various body parts, etc. If you are insistent that you HAVE to have such body decorations, either cover them up with clothes (tattoos), or remove them (piercing). Ladies can have a pair, maybe two pairs of ear rings. Guys...unless you are gay, leave the ear rings at home. And if you have such desire to put those stupid rings in your ears that increase the size of your ear lobe, don't even bother to apply.
My secretary had a problem with my Prince Albert, I fired her.
This comment does not represent the views or opinions of the user.
...lots of metallic parts sticking out of you on a job that requires working near live electrical appliances of which some are equipped with high speed moving parts is a bad idea.
Not to mention turning yourself into two minute spot on That's Incredible by way of using your body as a canvas doesn't exactly scream "able to deal with standards and normality" which are good things to be able to convince interviewers of.
I don't even want to get into genital piercings and tattoos inside of lips.
Accepted in IT? More often adopted by geeks who are hoping to convince someone they're tough. I see very few genuine stereotypical tough body modders with any nerd cred. And a snake fighting an eagle taking up your whole chest is a lot more normal on a biker than let's say a penguin bending over and mooning Bill Gates on a support tech wearing coke bottle glasses, but either one doesn't exactly say "mentally stable and totally dependent" to me.
Grouse about superficial judgements all you like. The world doesn't work according to idealism.
If my grammar and spelling are off, I am [distracted/tired/careless] (take your pick)
Do whatever you will to or for your body, your appearance, but do so at your own risk. Since tattoos are essentially permanent, think about long term goals, ramifications, etc., and what some "permanent" might mean for those goals.
The OP talks about some places being "cool" with tattoos, piercings, etc. That may be true, but that is only a snapshot of today's standards. During the dotcom heyday, with IT "specialists" (most really weren't, n'est-ce pas?) the standard for acceptable appearance was "anything goes". We need you, and we still love you even though your hair is filthy and goes to your waist, and you have tattoos.
But, I worked for a large corporation for 21 years... when I started, the dress code was un-stated, but tacitly enforced... you had to wear dress pants (absolutely no jeans), dress shirt, and at least a sports coat (yes, the tie was optional). Over time, as IT became the place to work and demand for workers was high I saw this dress code disappear and the office soon looked like the stretch pants, khaki cutoff shorts, flip-flops and sandals capital of the United States!
Fast forward to the dotcom crash... new management, and new dress codes, this time actually formally enforced. Yeah, things change.
So, think about it... tattoos go a long way... and regardless of right or wrong, some people react negatively to them, and regardless of whether you like that or not, it's there! (I know of a very close friend who lost out to a med-school... she found out later it was influenced by her tattoos.) (Also, I think this has even passed muster in court of law -- I think Starbucks actually has a dress code and appearance code that was challenged by someone who had a pierced something, and Starbucks prevailed.)
For those who need further prodding and convincing, read John Malloy's Dress for Success. Whether personally you like or don't like people's reactions to how you look at least Malloy will give you some empirical perspective to work with...
There's nothing wrong with looking like this guy or even this guy
Decorate your mind, not your body.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
Hey, it's helped me in the past!
One Friday, I had gotten my tongue pierced, by Monday, my tongue had swelled up so much, I could barely talk.
We were in a meeting that day, I received my assignments for the day with a slight mumble grumble - I guess my boss thought I was overtly stressed or just not happy with what I had to do.
He called me into the conference room and gave me a 150% raise, telling me how good he thought I was to the company and that he was so glad I was with them. I don't think he knew about the tongue ring for weeks...
The next month, I dyed my hair green...
Dada Mail - Program, Art Project or Absurdity?
I can't believe the number of posts on this site talking about how "unprofessional" even an earring on a male looks. Are we really still that wrapped up in gender identity that even a gold stud on a guy is a threat?
The arguement could be made that clients or managers could have the sort of archaic, narrow-minded ideas which would necessitate very conservative attire at the workplace; however, I don't expect so much of that attitude itself on a site where the majority of the posters are geeks. I thought we were a more open-minded lot than that.
This is the same attitude which used to force men to wear ties and women to wear dresses. It's the same attitude which made people be angry with the "long" bowl-cuts the Beatles sported when they came to the USA.
I'm not saying the attitude doesn't exist, or that you can currently do what you want and get away with it. All I'm saying is that there's no reason smart people like all of us should help it persist.
Just then the floating disembodied head of Colonel Sanders started yelling Everything You Know Is Wrong!-Weird Al
Does "body modification" include taking a shower? Because some of the people I've worked with could really stand to have some serious work done.
Dress code at a company I worked at was "business casual", with no reference to ink at all.
Then one day one of our desk-side techs (who really was a nice guy, by the way), got a complaint reported by a user. It was a little old lady who litterally was scared of the tech because of the ink on his arms. (a guitar, if memory serves) Instantly a new dress code went into place stating no visible tatoos. He was banished to long sleeves for the rest of his time at the company.
The moral: In a consulting company it ain't the boss who sets dress code. The client does.
-MrLogic
A wise person once told me that the difference between a good choice and a bad choice is that a good choice gives you more choices.
Considering how many types of (strech) pierchings and tatoos are difficult to reverse, why would someone want to get one? What kind of long term plan/goal does it promote?
As a network security consultant, I'm frequently onsite at large institutions, including telcos, financial organisations, govermental, etc...
/ever/ wear a tie, though I do where dress pants and a "formal" shirt - my formal shirts are never plain white, blue, etc... I wear designer clothes that express myself, but also look good..
But I've ever had any trouble with my tongue ring, and two ear pirecings.. And ner do I
In my country (New Zealand) it doesn't really matter what you're wearing, so long as you look well-dressed and look like you know what you're doing..
Some applies from my experience in Australia, but I can't comment for any other countries..
Just observe any film of late 60's NASA engineers and you have all the style tips you need for success. Buzz cut, white shirt, pocket protector.
Learn it. Know it. Live it.
I've seen some people in weird clothing, with piercings and blue hair and stuff. For as long as you do a good job, no one cares or even notices.
:0)
There still is some rudimentary dress code, though. You can't come to work wearing nothing but underwear for example. There's a legend, and I don't know if it's true or not, that once upon a time there was a guy at MSFT who was too cheap to rent an appartment. So he lived in his office. One Sunday someone caught him in his underwear watching TV in a conference room. The guy got fired. So there you go. Start the party, bash Microsoft for its oppression of nudity in the workplace.
I've known people who work for MS who were pierced from head to toe and I've always thought that to be unprofessional, distracting and quite honestly a bit repulsive. Clean yourself up and show up to work looking like a decent human being people.
In some cultures of human beings, it's considered indecent if one is not pierced.
If you want to be taken seriously and treated professionally where you work, unless it's a small company run by other geeks, you need to dress and look clean and professional. It's still a fact that people judge you based on how you look, and if you're in an office environment surrounded by people in slacks and shirts and other professional attire, you'll look very out of place with a bunch of piercings or tatoos. What it says to coworkers is that you don't care enough about the job to even APPEAR professional.
Now, I know some people here are going "Oh for the love of God! What century are we in that we still have to conform to such out-dated societal norms!? We must break free... blah blah blah" To those people I say "Grow up!" Your days as a rebellious member of some imagined counter-culture pretty much end when you're out on your own making your way in the world.
Yes, there are places still where there is no dress code... but they're the exception as opposed to the rule. If you want a professional job, you have to play by the professional rules set out by employers. Body mods, strange haircuts/colors etc. are a risk you may choose to take, but like all risks you have to realize there are consequences. You can't just run around and do whatever you want and expect everyone to be cool with it. When you work for someone else, you play by their rules.
Don't like it? Then I offer a modified stock Slashdot response for anyone who ever complains about a piece of software:
"If you don't like it, start your own company and set the rules how you like them! Otherwise, sit down"
Sure, if someone has every skill you need, lots of experience in the real world, can communicate clearly and professionally... that's a great start. But let's not pretend that the huge tatoos and copious, highly visible piercings are just a simple "style." They are very potent messages, which don't jive too well with the other messages we're talking about, here.
For example (if we translate all of the messages involved into the spoken word): "Hi, I'm a talented, certified Cisco jockey - just what you need. You can trust me with your crucial data, and trust that I will protect you from Starbucks-fueled anarchist semi-punks trying to break through your firewall to deface The Man's web site. Also, whenever I'm in a meeting with management, you'll see that I specifically (and permanently) have chosen to slightly shock and unsettle the average person, and send a not-very-subtle disturbing message of dark counter-culture and pseudo-tribal pop cultism that will completely go against the grain of your company's typical customers, vendors, employees, and management. But despite my doing everything I can to make you stare at me, I insist that you do not, and only consider me just another applicant. All of this stuff I've done to myself means nothing in the context of what I do at work, because who I really am doesn't matter at work, even though I want the salary of a dedicated IT professional for whom the career actually is important. So, let's talk money! And, are you staring at my eyebrow piercings, my mohawk, or my reptile-eye contact lenses? I can't see very well with them in, and I want to be sure that I'm coming across well in this interview."
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
It's a sign of maturity. Barring religious reasons, one should not wear any form of *visible* modifications outside of those that are generally acceptable (e.g. lobe piercings in women). Anything else shows you're immature and trying to be "different" when really you're just another idiot.
Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like. Anything else is just juvenile.
Well said!
One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago. In many ways they're more sophisticated, have more general knowledge, and may even be smarter, but what they are not is "adult." College age people are much more like teenagers now than young adults. Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline.
Where am I going with this? These days adolescence seems to last until about 35, with all the juvenile behavior that goes with it.
It depends on your job. If you want to be stuck in a back room answering telephones for a living, go ahead and get some highly visible body mods. If you want to work with the straight-laced business world, keep it private.
I manage a group of IT professionals, and every one of them has tats and piercings. But it is all done in a way to keep it out of sight during work. Even the large ear piercings are covered with plugs (or whatever the body-mod crowd cares to call them) while at work.
At Happy Hour, the sleeves and pants get short and the fishing lures go in the ears. Nice work, but NOT something that should be shared with professionals and client reps.
But I NEVER would have considered them if they had interviewed with facial mods. I simply could not allow that kind of presentation to clients.
Oh, and my ear piercing scars were removed when I had those "moles" removed by the doctor.
The worst part is that the article submitter seems to frame the question as if he is part of some great repressed minority fighting to gain the right to look like an idiot.
Really, who isn't part of repressed minority now-a-days?
Ever since the 60s, if you can claim to be part of some repressed minority, you get to claim the moral highground in any argument and the facts of the argument are no longer relevant to you. Anyone how disagrees with you (no matter how ridiculous and asinine your position is) is The Man, trying to keep you down.
We live in a time where rudeness is rewarded.
I have an appearance issue that I'm sure makes me less employable: I walk funny. Not a big deal, just a minor neurological problem. I'm sure people look at me and ask themselves "Is that guy on drugs or what?" I've thought of carrying a cane, even though I don't even know how to use one, just to emphasize that it's a minor medical disability, not an effect of a debauched lifestyle. But I'm sure it'd come off as a pose. So I just live with it. Life is often unfair, and it's not productive to get self-righteous about it.
I'm quite liberal [1] on most issues, including what I regard as trival things such as hair style, color and dress code, and I wouldn't want to work at a company that got uptight about engineers/developers/sysadmins wearing trainers or comfortable casual footware to the office, or that similarly imposed a needlessly strict dress code.
However, on the subject of tatoo's and piercings I find I'm quite conservative. If I'm being honest I'd find it hard not to feel suspicous of the judgement of anyone in the field who thought it would a good idea to place bits of metal through their face (other than perhaps for non medial purposes), especially if they are over the age of about 25.
I honestly would not feel comfortable with someone who thought it was a smart decision to do this to himself helping design software or network infrastucture and I wouldn't want him in the team I was in. Based on the avalible evidence, I would not trust his capacity for rational judgement (an absolute core requirement for sort of work I do).
With regard to tattoo's I'm of a similar opinion. Having the name of your wife/kids/football team (or something of similar significance) tattooed on your arm, I'd consider quite reasonable and not count that as a sign of poor judgement. The same would be true for things are 'tastefully' decorative (while realisting that term is subjective, I would include things such as celtic crosses, marui tattoo's [2]).
However, this would not be the case for anyone who I observed who had something overtly tasteless like 'Love/Hate' tatoos across their knuckles, or large tatoos of cartoon characters, like Daffy Duck or Tom & Jerry (also equally negative indicators when worn on ties IMO - with some exceptions).[3]
I'd try not to let someone having facial percings or tasteless tattoo's on it's own as something that stand in the way of someone being hired in a job interview, but I conceed that it could count against them in a tie breaker situation. If there was a position for someone in an overly creative area (such as graphic design, or perhaps marketing) I don't think I would consider percings or tattoo's necessarily negative indicators at all.
[1] NB: With a small 'l'.
[2] Not an exhaustive list
[3] I have a deadbeat realtive who incidentally has all of these, and then some.
I'm an engineer in my 20's. On a whim one weekend, my girlfriend and I used her hair dye to make my hair the same natural shade of red as hers. Not long after that, one of the senior engineers (a guy who was probably 50 or 55) introduced me to another guy and tried to set me up on a dinner date with him.
It would have been quite embarrassing even if I were gay, and I don't think the other guy was gay either.
It's hard to say which, but the older guy was either terribly clueless or a complete fucking asshole.
In any case, older people others who live sheltered, conservative lives often don't have a clue about things. People who are set in their ways like that can react with extreme hostility when they're confronted with ideas outside their narrow range of experience.
A more enlightened attitude is that it's your body and you should be able to modify it as you see fit. Just be aware that you can and will suffer consequences in the workplace for having a nonstandard appearance.
"The advanced societies of the future will be driven by competing systems of psychopathology." -JG Ballard
Soviet Russia ...
There's a point at which you just have to shrug your shoulders and say tough shit. Yes, personal responsibility hurts sometimes. That's part of being an adult.
Besides, Hot Topic and Burger King are usually hiring, and they generally don't care about tats and whatnot. If you are in the above situation, be thankful that your moment of stupidity didn't result in death(yours or others), suck it up and move on. Don't expect the world(especially employers) to cut you slack for a boneheaded move you made while drunk.
All that is necessary for the triumph of good is that evil men do nothing.
Call me crazy, but I feel a far more comfortable dealing with people dressed as they want to be dressed, with whatever visible body modifications they have. In fact, I feel far more comfortable dealing with people who have piercings and/or visible tattoos, despite having none myself. Why? Because far more often than not, that type of work environment makes the employees comfortable and happy with their job, which is the best way to ensure they do their job well. Most of the employees at the best pizza place in this county (actually rated best by the newspapers, not just IMO) have tattoos, piercings, and non-standard haircuts, and they do their jobs well.
When I worked in customer service myself, I got very relieved whenever I got to deal with people who were visibly off-beat, because contrary to popular belief, they tend to be nice people. They go by their own standards instead of forcing themselves to conform to someone else's standards, which means less stress for them, and get this: most people would rather deal with someone who's actually friendly than someone being forced to fake it. Less stress = more relaxed = generally easier to deal with.
I'm also rather saddened that some would call body modification immature. Though I'm sure some immature people modify themselves, it is by no means an indicator; as implied above, I've found a greater degree of maturity in those who are into it than those against it. It's not usually whoring for attention any more than wearing a shirt because you find it aesthetic. It is an aspect of individuality, and individuality is what drives humanity, like it or not. Entrepeneurs and inventors aren't conformists, and I don't think anyone else needs to be either. We're humans, not robots. Frankly, I'd rather my potential jobs be replaced by machines than have to make myself as machinelike as possible to obtain and keep those jobs.
By reading this you acknowledge that you have read it.
I prefer to think of it as body modifications providing important hiring visual queues for IT managers.
I'm an American. I love this country and the freedoms that we used to have.
You're right that claiming that you belong to a repressed is a common tactic, no matter how absurd an idea it is that your group is repressed. I'm still wondering about how the 4/5 of Americans who are Christians became an oppressed minority, especially in an age when you have to be Christian to have a chance at most high political offices and increasingly to be a high level civil servant or military officer.
You still have a boss, or if you prefer, a chain of command. While some tattoos will never be acceptable, e.g. those that may suggest racist affiliations, you must remember that those who outrank you can make or break your career, and can make your life miserable. Further, you may find a wall to a higher level security clearance, and to opportunities. I had a potentially identifying mark (not a tattoo) burned off, just in case. I can say from experience that almost any tattoo will create prejudice against the wearer, at least in the military.
KOA
Anchorage, Alaska Will Host National Policy Meeting on Technology
Top Story: Normal People Don't Like Freaks
I fear not the modders.
Small business, the type of business that supposedly makes the US operate, does not willingly accept freaks. They tolerate IT types (people with poor social skills, and perhaps less than ideal grooming habits), but they aren't going to willingly choose to employ people who look like freaks (to them).
It's JobHunting101: All else being equal, the applicant who makes the best impression gets the job. Now if the place you're applying to is full of people with "tats" and noserings, then you're set. But since that hasn't exactly caught on with normal people, your chances of appearing as though you would "fit in" are slim.
If you're a freak, hide it until you get the job (and ideally until you prove that you're invaluable).
.sigs are for post^Hers.
you're an adult now
Yep, totally. And the funny thing about being an adult is being able to choose what you want to do, what to wear and where to work. You want a job at IBM? Then you'll have to adjust to the company's codes.
But it's also stupid to think you can't work in a professional environment unless you look a certain way. In fact it's bullshit. It all depends on what your professional company expects from you.
I wear steel tubes in my ears. I have a long goatee and sideburns. I wear tshirts and jeans. I don't have tattoos yet, but I won't be hindered by my job when it comes to deciding what and where they'll be.
Do you know why I can?
Because it's not what I am expected to be like. Because I don't interact with customers. I don't meet with partners. I'm not an executive and don't want to be. I write code. Basically the only time I'm called out of my office is for status meetings.
Most importantly though, I work for a very liberal tech company. Our execs don't judge you by what you look like or what you wear. I've had hallway chats with high-level VPs while wearing WTF? and "Every time you download music god kills a kitten" shirts and it just isn't an issue.
However, if for some reason I had to give a talk or teach a class to people outside out company, I'd of course choose appropriate attire and look professional, but professional doesn't have to mean being anal-retentive, wearing button-up shirts and kaki slacks.
BUT, if I worked for a company I really liked and they changed the dress code to be button ups and a tie, fine. It's my choice to either work there or find new work. I can adapt, I'm not physically attached to my clothing. The earrings would be a little weird because the holes are kind of large, but I'm sure I could find a solution if I had to.
But I don't.
R(k)
'quite frankly.. body 'modifications' as the article refered to them, are looked at by many others as 'body mutilations'. While I am all for people having the freedom to do whatever they want, this actually means 'being able to do whatever they want so long as they dont infringe on the freedoms of everyone else'. Subjecting others to the display of such mutilation crosses the line. A similar example is if I started refusing to take a shower every day I went to work - my 'right to stink' is overridden by other's 'right to breath fresh air'. Besides if you really analyze it, puncturing your body is fundamentally disturbing - in fact I think that the people that do this, do it just to get this shock value' from this disturbance they give others. They're basically insecure and think it makes them 'cool' - when in fact they've just de-sensitized themselves so much they think they like it. Whatever. There's limits to what you can do in society and be treated respectfully. When you are enourmously fat, you smell bad, or you insist on puncturing your body with little hooks, you're going to get treated differently and that's just the way it is - the majority of people dont want to be subjected to that type of nonsense.
-- NeTMoNGeR
I knew a waitress at a fancy restaurant and she told me if she was wearing a bikini and had her mouth open you could not see any of he piercings and she had 5 piercings. Really nice girl, you would never guess she had made these mods.
H.
...but kids these days are getting more socially conservative, not less. I'd put your prediction right up there with the folks who said we'd have flying cars by 1980 and moon colonies by 2000.
My personal prediction is that the popularity of tatoos and non-ear piercings (and loud, ugly American motorcycles) will decrease steadily for the next 10-20 years as the kids growing up see just how stupid "the old folks" look with their saggy, faded tats and bodily fishing tackle and Harleys and on and on...
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are. If this wasn't the case then we wouldn't spend so much time on our appearance. You certainly wouldn't go through the pain of getting a tattoo or a body piercing if it didn't convey some sort of a message.
You can pretend that piercing your eyebrow six times makes you some sort of "individual," but that's hardly the case. Chances are good that at the club you hang out at on the weekends half the kids there look just like you. I find it amusing to see packs of these so-called "individuals" roaming around together in their freakish uniforms. The reason to get tattoos and body piercings is to fit in with a crowd, plain and simple.
The question is which crowd do you want to fit in with? Do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is going somewhere, or do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is strung out on dope. Sure, it's possible, even probable in your case, that you simply *dress* like a dope fiend without being one. Theoretically the rest of us should spend some time getting to know the person underneath the freakish exterior before we judge you.
Well, that's not the way the world is ever likely to work. First of all, that sort of behaviour can be dangerous. Quite a few of the people that look like dope fiends *are* dope fiends. And while it's possible that the guy who dresses like a Bible Salesman is really some sort of a hideous menace to society chances are in your favor that he is not.
All of us, to some extent or another wear a mask. However, the mask that we choose to wear says a great deal about the person behind the mask. Only an idiot ignores these important clues when meeting new people, and I have no doubt that you do the same thing. Heck, the reality is that the reason for getting these body modifications is that they serve as an advertisement for the type of person that you are and the types of activities that you are interested in. Employers understand this very well, and they also understand that this sort of personal advertisement doesn't always fit in well in a corporate environment. Employers know that their next client is far more likely to be put off by this sort of thing than attracted by it, and so they hire accordingly.
cheap labor conservatives - they want to keep you hungry enough to be thankful for minimum wage.
I worked at a startup company where we had a stunningly beautiful intern who wore tight knit tops, no bra and no need for one though she was quite well endowed, and had a variety of nipple piercing jewelry (changed daily.)
It really lowered the productivity of some of my coworkers and most of them could not look her in the eye when they talked to her.
It was no problem for me; I've been hanging around with pierced S&M folks since the early 80s! Been there. Done that.
Dog is my co-pilot.
First of all, lets drop the PC bullshit. It's not "body modification". Either you're a modern primative - and proud of it - or you're just a pierced freak who wants to add holes to your head (and elsewhere) because it's the in thing to do.
And accepting that, you ought to realize that its growing less acceptable as IT becomes more and more a part of the corporate environment. Whereas eccentricities such as long hair, unkempt beards, and poor dress (if not outright violations of corporate dresscodes) were tolerated in order to get the talent, the geek chique no longer carries the credibility it used to. Corporate executives are looking for a more professional breed of IT managers and specialists who are more buttoned down and presentable.
Is it a hindrance? Well that depends on where your interests lie. If you're a corporate survivor looking to climb the ladder (or at least cling desperately to your rung), you're going to have to accept that that piercing in your septum which is getting green around the hole is going to factor in when you're up for review. However, if you're in IT as a lifestyle, because you love the soft flicker of hard drive access LED's, and are soothed by the gentle hum of RAID arrays accented by the mellow chatter of heads seeking to the right track, then you'll also pass off the pay and respect for a nice stuffy backroom where you'll languish at the bottom of IT payscales for eternity. Or, go and work for a more open company that is more concerned with the capabilities of its people than with how well they'd fare in a police line-up of tattood purse-snatching thugs.
I thought we'd be over it by now. I think diversity ought to be something to be encouraged rather than discouraged so I'm dismayed when a corperation talks diversity but means race.
Shaving your facial hair isn't a matter of maturity it's a matter of culture. Many cultures (Amish, Sikhs, and more) have rules dictating this. I fail to see how the body mod scene fails to qualify as a distinct culture, yet people enjoy discriminating against them and calling them names despite having met maybe 2 of said people and making a judgement call in the first 5 minutes of having met them. Personally, I have no tattoos or piercings but I don't have any disrespect for those who do.
Business is about making money, not wearing long pants and a tie.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
"One thing I've noticed -- and it's not just that I'm getting older -- is that young adults are a lot less mature than 20 years ago....Professors I talk to bitch about this a lot, having witnessed the decline."
:)
You are suffering from geriatric myopia, (ie: it IS because you are getting older). Kids today are just as "mature" as when you were amoungst them. Since you have mentioned this observation came from some acedemic friends, is it possible you don't know any kids personally?
When I was 18 I told a prospective employer at a petrol station "no thanks" because he wanted to me to cut my hair and loose my dope leaf earing. Today I have short hair, (actually a bald spot with salt-n-pepper trim), I sit next to a 50-ish man with a receding hairline, neat ponnytail and a gold sleeper, go figure?
The only reason to follow a dress code and look neat at an interview is to show respect to your employer by "playing the part". In other words you are trying to "fit in" by looking like they do in an effort get/keep a job. You would not dress up in an expensive suit to get a labouring job since the employer would probably think you don't want to get your hands dirty.
Like it or not most of the "grown-ups" on the planet are not "mature" enough to overcome thier primative fear and loathing of people who look "different" and will equate the "difference" to immaturity, idiocy, disrespect, incompetence, etc, so that they themselves can feel superior (or at least normal). Ask yourself, if the situation were reversed and all your bosses and rivals had a corporate tattoo on thier forehead, would you do it?
Disclaimer: I am a 46yo proffesional and have two grown kids (20 & 25). Speaking of maturity, have you been through your "mid life crisis" yet, I have and it was just as much fun and heartache as my "teenage crisis".
BTW: I agree wholeheartedly with part of the quote from the GP: "Stand out of the crowd by what you do, not what you look like." - The probability of that realisation occuring to a particular person increases with age but it can and does occur to people at any age above puberty. Having said that it does not automatically follow that the GP is "mature", it just means they have learnt one particular lesson. There are good reasons to have dress codes (eg: friend and foe situations, group identity) but there are also good reasons for dressing "wierd", eg: to draw attention towards/away from something/someone, unmasks zenophobes, diagonse geriatric myopia...
And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
I went from bleach blonde, to red, to bald in a month
Now that would look awesome under time-lapse photography. It would look like your head had gone into critical meltdown.
The only discrimination that is illegal is the type of discrimination that has been held illegal -- usually based on a protected attribute. It is legal to discriminate on someone with green hair, or drives a F.O.R.D. or who wore Calvin Klein jeans on a Tuesday.
Fight Spammers!
I have NO piercings and NO tats. But I'm a long haired white guy.
I've had job issues based on my hair alone. The most recent was when the little cocksucker (sorry, I don't have enough middle fingers for my former employer.) that became my boss who started calling me "Jesus" and having one of his lackeys follow suit. Yes, because I wasn't showing up to work with polo shirts & boat shoes, I became the one to poke fun at. (These people were all hired well after I was.)
So if you're worried about piercings causing you problems, the answer is "yes, they'll cause problems. So will the tattoos."
"Ford Motor Co., for example, doesn't have a specific policy regarding body art but does prohibit midriff-baring outfits."
Aw, that's a bummer. Back when I worked at AT&T, the policy was basically "please wear clothes." It was distracting to work there because of all the hot chicks that were dressed up like they were going to the dance clubs after work. Tight clothes, bare midriffs, thongs showing.. holy cow, I never thought that life at the phone company could be so wonderful.
That job would have been great if it wasn't for the fucking customers.
I would certainly take a job for $30,000 less a year than I make if they allowed me to dye my hair whatever color I want, and have visible piercings and tattoos.
For me, I think a suit is necessary for gentlemen in an office at all times. Beyond a suit, what an employee wears is none of the employers business so long as they're not vulgar. (Obviously a tattoo on the forehead that says, "Fuck off!" would not be work appropriate.)
For some people, tattoos and piercings are just a phase. But for many, many more, it's a reconnection with the divine. It's a rite of passage. It's a sacred, spiritual experience.
To deny that right to people is not only discriminatory, it's morally wrong. Work really is "just a job". You're there 40 hours a week.
Why should your employer own your body, especially when when you aren't even working 128 hours each week?
The statistics say it all:
A 2002 Mayo Clinic survey of university undergraduate students found more than half had some type of body piercing, and 23 percent had one to three tattoos.
With nearly one in four having a tattoo, I don't think that the current trend of discrimination will last through my lifetime. Thank God. It's about time the Victorian-era concepts of an employer owning your ass end, for all eternity.
I'd rather die, than be a slave.
Somehow I don't think the tats or piercings are going to cause you a problem when stacked up against your ego.
He's a tattoo artist.
Last week, we had a very interesting lecture by one of the heads of company's Client Service Group on client meetings/presentations.
At one point, she said something quite wise about appearances, that is a perfect answer to the article's question:
"When a client leaves a meeting with you, the client should remember WHAT YOU SAID, and NOT how you looked".
As a background, I work for a software development company that sells to large financial companies; many of us "geeks" get to meet clients so the lecture was very popular.
To add to that, my own view is "If you need to distinguish yourself from other people by what you look like, there's a big chance you have no other beneficial qualities to dinstinguish yourself with". There are exceptions to this, but not many in my experience.
-DVK
--
"Can't act. Can't sing. Balding. Can dance a little."
- Human Resources Department judgment on Fred Astaire's Hollywood screen test in the early 1930s.
"The right to figure things out for yourself is the only true freedom everyone shares. Go use it"-R.A.Heinlein
I'm hoping this is the case in other parts of the games industry too because I've been toying with the idea of getting some more body modifications :) (Right now I just have my ears and navel pierced. Quite boring, I'm afraid.)
Also, on the same topic, I've also been considering getting my breasts enlarged but I'm not sure whether that kind of thing would be held against me (or count in my favour in a way that I might not like). Any idea how that kind of modification is viewed in the industry? If an employer noticed/found out, would he/she be likely to think "Wow, what a brainless slut. Why the hell should we hire her as a programmer?", or is it the kind of thing that's just accepted and ignored?
I'm late to this discussion, but I'll make my statement.
Businesses should be allowed to set whatever dress code they want. Don't like it? Don't work there. Given that I believe that businesses in general shouldn't have to hire anyone they don't want for any reason, I suppose I'm in a minority.
Seriously, be prepared to accept the consequences of your actions. It's that simple. I don't think anyone out there that gets a piercing or a tatoo or whatever doesn't know that a lot of people, right or wrong, have issues with that.
I have my ear pierced and while it's really no big deal nowadays, there are some places that it's an issue. You know what? I have no desire to deal with or work with a company that's that hung up on an earring. They're tight ass pricks. That's their right. It's my right not to want to deal with them and work elsewhere.
The biggest problem I have with the "different" or "extreme" crowd is that some of them think it's *their* right to do whatever they want and that everyone around them should just deal with it. Yeah? Fuck you guys. Do what you want. I'm all for it. However, quit telling *other* people who they should feel and think. Do what you but be willing to accept the fucking consequences.
Businesses exist, for the most part, to make money. If your cute little lip ring or tatoo impedes that, why should they hire you? Even if you're skilled, it's likely there's someone else who is just as skilled who isn't outside that business's comfort zone. And again, if someone is going to get that caught up over a lip ring, do you really *want* to work there? I wouldn't.
If your response is, "Well I *need* X job." Take your piercings out. If you've got tats it's likely you know the possible consequnces when you got them. If you didn't, you're probably not bright enough to be qualified for any place with a dress code. Beggars can't be choosers. Come on people, this is real life. I'm not telling anyone to give up their "individuality" or personal "expression." I'm not telling anyone to "grow up" because I personally have almost no issues with tats or piercings. (Although there is a point of excess that even bothers me. Deal with it.) Hell, I'm the kind of person who would lose clients before firing or not hiring someone based on appearance. However, that's *my* choice and it's not my place to other people hiring how they need to run *their* business.
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are.
...anyway, back to this:
At least we can agree on this.
The reason to get tattoos and body piercings is to fit in with a crowd, plain and simple.
That's funny. I thought I got tattoos because I liked the way they looked, and the things that they remind me of when I see them.
I'm glad I have people like you around to reveal the truth about my wanting to fit in with the terribly popular "science dorks who like Legacy of Kain and grew up reading William Gibson" crew.
Do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is going somewhere, or do you want to fit in with the crowd that looks like it is strung out on dope. Sure, it's possible, even probable in your case, that you simply *dress* like a dope fiend without being one.
Have you ever met an actual "dope fiend"? They look like all kinds of people, including the ones who wear suits and ties*.
On the other hand, most of the people I know who dress nicely all the time aren't going anywhere at all. They're stuck in essentially the same position they've either been in or will be in for twenty years.
*I wear a suit and a tie half of the time too. I like the contrast with my bright green hair, and it's fun to outdress everyone except the CIO. But I think you know what I mean.
And while it's possible that the guy who dresses like a Bible Salesman is really some sort of a hideous menace to society chances are in your favor that he is not.
Uh huh. Have you ever looked at pictures of serial killers? They don't generally have purple hair and piercings.
How you present yourself to the world says a lot about what sort of person you are.
You've said this, but you don't understand its full implications. You assume that when someone gets tattooed, or pierced, or dyes their hair, they are trying to "look like an individual," or something equally superficial and useless for gauging who they are. You are throwing away potentially valuable information that's sitting right in front of your eyes.
But whatever, I'm tired of arguing with people about why this line of thinking is stupid. If someone has such a problem with my vaguely odd appearance that they can't deal with it, I can easily find someone else to benefit from my skills.
"...always new atoms but always doing the same dance, remembering what the dance was yesterday." -Richard Feynman
I do the opposite. I look like a normal, clean living person (no tattoos, no piercings), yet I'm a dope fiend! Get the best of both worlds that way, good professional career, yet I can spend the weekends at the 'bake sale'.
Oolite: Elite-like game. For Mac, Linux and Windows
Dunno about him, but personally I don't mind that. I have no piercings or tattoos, but I still do tell my employer that no, I don't ever want a promotion to management. Been there, done that, decided that management is not something I like to do.
Yes, I can occasionally talk to a customer, or draw a flowchart on a whiteboard in front of an audience. But the keyword is: occasionally. I'd very much sit at a computer than spend every day in meetings, corporate power games, or trying to make Wally finally actually do _some_ work, _any_ work. I very much like it when he's not really my problem.
Or to put it otherwise: if I wanted to do either management or marketting, I'd have went to a business college. I chose computers for a reason: that's what I like to do.
So other people will get promoted instead. Good. That I like.
So I've had people I've recruited end up my boss. I'm ok with that. They probably deserved it too, with the amount of show-business they put up for the boss instead of actually working or actually learning programming. But anyway, it still means that I do the job I like.
Some people seem to assume an uni-dimensional rat race and that money is the only thing that matters. They'd do _anything_ for money, or for some stupid social acceptance goal like "promotions are good". They just have to chase some stupid goal that will actually make their life _worse_, much like dogs chase a car: never stopping to think what they'd do if they actually caught one.
At one point it's not even a promotion any more, it's just really switching carreer tracks to a completely new line of work. A new work which doesn't even resemble the old one, and you're not even prepared for, and you're probably incompetent for or don't have the right personality type for. (E.g., an introvert won't really enjoy a life where 8 hours a day are spent talking to everyone, from making sure what the team is doing, to meetings with clients, to meetings with higher level management, etc.)
It's called "Peter's Principle".
Is it worth it? Is it what you _really_ want to do with your life? Would you switch jobs to _anything_, including driving a garbage truck or shovelling manure, if it paid better and was fashionably disguised as a promotion?
Well, if you can honestly answer "yes" to that, yeah, you're in the right rat race. Keep up, brown nose, backstab, and don't let the Joneses get a promotion before you do.
If not, well, then you understand why some of us have "quality of life" as the _goal_, and money and promotions are just _means_ to that end. If the trade-off involved in getting those means actually move you farther from the goal, is actually a bad trade-off. One to be avoided.
(Just as examples of such trade-offs: you get more money but at the expense of getting a stress-related ulcer, or doing so much overtime that you don't actually have the time to enjoy that money, or whatever. Was it worth it? Did it really improve your life?)
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
Had to think about it.
When Truman Capote wrote In Cold Blood he came away with an observation. The psycho-criminals he met were invariably heavily tatooed and that led him to speculations about the craziness trying to come out. So I think an interviewee with a lot of modification would have his stability looked at suspiciously or be considered a bit socially retarded for falling for a fashion emulating psycho-criminals. Would you come into an interview for a professional or managerial job in biker leathers and chains?
Personally, I always had a bit of bemusement. The guys with two-feet of hair in the late seventies had an easy fashion fix. But scrubbing those tats, oh -- around this decade, was going to hurt -- the pocketbook if nothing else.
your translation is a subjective fabrication of what you think someone else is thinking.
... medical reasons?), they have to know that hanging a hardware store off of their face is going to suggest a certain need for attention, and willingness to present an atmosphere of discomfort in order to get that attention.
But that's exactly my point. Unless you come right out and say what the 1-inch hole in your earlobe and the four studs in your forehead do mean, you're leaving it up to the average person to guess. And most people are going to assume that whatever it "means" to the person who did it, the highly visible nature of it, especially on the face, is so that it will be seen. The vast majority of the things we all do to our appearance are done to project some facet of a larger image, to convey alignment with a particular way of life or attitude. Even if that's not true for a particular person (say, they have to have six eyebrow rings for
But it still doesn't matter - it's in the eye of the beholder, and when you staple your lips, you're going to be subject to whatever the average person thinks about what you're trying to say. And if you aren't going to continually start all of your business conversations with an explanation of "it's not really what you think" or "don't worry, it only looks like it hurts" or "people have been piercing faces for thousands of years, get over it" before you talk about buying and implementing that new load balancing router pair, well... then you have to put up with me, and everyone else, jumping to contextual conclusions about what you are trying to say. People in an environment where they can afford to pay real career-type IT salaries to quality nerds (which is what this whole thread is all about) don't usually have time sort through all of that, and aren't going to want to wonder if every staffer, vendor, or customer that Mr. Pierced is going to be in front of is going to want to take the time either.
The shorthand interpretation of the look in question is registered pretty solidly on the wider culture. Never mind the irony of people trying so hard to be "unique" that they look just like half a million other Goths or whatever, the issue is that most people have at least some notion that the heavily pierced, tatooed person is hoping that all that decoration will be seen (especially when it's in places, like on the face, where it can't be missed). And the desire for it to be seen equates to an expectation that the underlying message is either obvious, or is suitable for speculation. And to the 40-year-old who manages the department (and the budget that would pay the tatooed IT person wanting that stable paycheck and health benefits) is going to make some snap decisions based on that first impression that Mr. Pierce is forcing her to digest. It doesn't matter what his reason is for the body art, any more than it matters what Mark Rothko was thinking when he painted: the audience will draw its own conclusions unless you provide a running commentary, and you can't spend your day at work providing one and still expect that time to be as valuable (and well paid) as someone who spends that same time, say, writing code or tuning servers.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Answer me this: have you given any thought to how your tattoos will look when you are 60? That was the question I asked myself as a teenager, when the topic came up.
Basically nothing good comes from it and she got it so long ago it isn't important to her anymore. The problems or fears it causes include:
Well this is just my take, I have nothing personal against tattoos or piercings (well on girls tattoos are sexy to me but I feel less professionally interested in pierced people.. and my eyes are always going to the piercing instead of their eyes so it hinders my communication with them I think). If you think you might work in a conservative national or corporate culture one day it probably is better to go with a small tattoo than a piercing is my guess, but if you can make it without either until you are out of school you'll probably be happier later on I'd guess. Whatever!
Your story illustrates how fully body mods have shifted in our culture from rebellious to conformist. People now get piercing and tattoos because their peers have them, rather than to stand out from their peers. Sorry, but it has become hard for me to look at a marked-up 16-year old and not roll my eyes. The very fact they they succumbed to peer pressure makes me view them as the opposite of the rebel they are trying to portray. It's like wearing an "I AM COOL(TM)" T-shirt. The fact that you think wearing that shirt makes you cool indicates how uncool you really are. Man, there goes my karma.
I hire people for my business. I want talented people. On the other hand, I want the clients in my conservative, right-wing community to feel comfortable when they come to my office. I want a professional atmosphere.
I was raised ever so slightly before tatoos and (to a lesser extent) piercings became a big deal. My opinion is that tattoos are for hookers and sailors.
On the other hand, I don't want to exclude people with tattoos and odd piercings from my labor force if it hurts my business.
All things being equal, I will take the non-tattooed, non-pierced person over his/her body modded competitor for a job at my office. Talent will rule, however, to some extent.
I view tattoos/mods (that my clients can see and may be offended/unnerved by) as being a "cost" of hiring the employee. If the cost exceeds the expected benefit, they won't get hired.
Another interesting issue comes up as well -- what to do with Plain Jane who comes into my office unmodded who hits 30 years old and wants to have a lifestyle change to shake things up? She goes out and gets a Mike Tyson tiger tattoo on part of her face. She is in a face-to-face customer relations position. What do I do? My answer is that she'd be canned.
Am I a right-wing fascist dickhead? Nope. I'm simply making an economic decision that results in putting more food on my table. I have no duty or obligation to carry the costs of an employee's body mod. To the extent that prejudice against body mods remains in my community which prejudice can cost me business, I am not allowing my employees to transfer the payment of that cost so that it comes out of my wallet. It's your decision to body mod, you should pay all the costs.
Until body modded people have protected status under nondiscrimination statutes, I have the right to fire (so long as I have a written policy, etc.), and I will. Not because I hate boddy modding, but because I don't want it to hurt my business.
If you smoke, you choose to pay the costs of smoking, and hyour employer shouldn't have to subsidize you. Likewise, if you body mod, your employer has no obligation to subsidize your lifestyle choice.
If you're gay, black, hispanic, disabled, etc., you cannot be discriminated against unreasonably because it is not a choice. I certainly won't discriminate on any of those grounds. On the other hand, body modders are not "forced" to do anything, and businesses are certainly free to discriminate. They get to make a choice as to whether forgoing that portion of the labor pool is good or bad for business. Based on my experiences, I think people will make similar business decisions as I would -- people with body-mods (obvious ones) will pay a penalty in the workforce as a result.
In today's employment market, I would be loathe (as an employee) to hurt my career prospects by body modding in a way that forces me into a competitive disadvantage. If your choices are based on non-monetary concerns, by all means mod away, but don't cry about it if it hurts your job prospects. If you do, you're being either whiny or naive, and neither of those characteristics are things I look for in my employees.
GF.
Lots of petrified grits
I do research in the chemical industry for a living. I have five earrings, two of them stretched. My nose, tongue, and back of my neck are also pierced, and I have a tattoo that completely covers my right calf.
I keep my appearance at work strictly professional. I'm not here to make a statement by my personal appearance; I'm here to do a job. The only piercings you can see when I'm at work are my ears - everything else is either covered up or has concealing jewelry in it. I wear business casual to work, just like everyone else. None of the managers in my direct line all the way up to the VP of my division have any problem with how I look, nor have I taken flak from any of the managers here on site.
To me, being allowed to wear earrings to work shows that my employer respects me as an individual. It's a courtesy that costs the company nothing, but it improves my morale immensely. It also builds loyalty. My piercings are not just a fashion statement, they *mean* something to me. I would turn down a $10k raise to work at another company, if I had to take my plugs out and let my lobes close back up to do it. You may think I'm foolish, that's your perogative, but we all have our priorities in life, and this is mine.
I've interviewed a number of potential new hires to the company, and they've all been favorably impressed by the fact that my large earrings are allowed. It conveys the message that here, individuality is respected. Your technical competence and accomplishments matter far more than anything else. This is the kind of culture a lot of young people, myself included, are looking for.
Yes, us pierced people are well aware that some people are going to discriminate against us because of how we look. That just means we have to work harder and perform better than the rest. If I were an employer, that's the kind of attitude I'd be looking for in an employee.
I have facial hair. And when I was looking for a new IT job, I went to like 5-6 interviews without a bite. Then I remembered something we were told in high school once by a comedian on a career day. He said that facial hair makes people seem more dark, mysterious, like they're hiding something. And for a comedian to be more accepted well by an audience, they need to be clean shavin. So, I applied this idea to a job interview and shaved off the goatee. The very next interview I had turned to a job offer. And then I just grew the goat back after I was comfortable with my job security. You are judged by looks people. Take out the nose rings, shave off the beard, cut the hair, cover up the tats and look professional. You will notice a difference in how people treat you.
There's no place like ~/
Scene: Standing outside the Soil goth nightclub in San Diego, '93. Everyone, and I mean everyone in line is wearing a black shirt, black jeans or skirt, and black boots. They are universally wearing white makeup and have black or crimson hair. Except me. I'm wearing blue jeans, brown Doc Martens, and a green polo shirt, and I have short blonde hair and no makeup.
I start trying to chat up the cute goth chick ahead of me (which was the whole reason for being there in the first place), but she cuts me off with "find someone else, you conformist." It never occurred to her that I was, quite literally, the only person there that didn't look exactly like everyone else.
I was also there for the music and poetry readings. Ironically, many people there were far more judgemental of me than I even thought of being toward anyone else there. A few people caught that, though, and enjoyed the novelty of hanging out with the lone prep in their lair.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
I can respect that. Heck, I nearly got a tattoo myself at one point. It's a powerful commitment feeling so strongly about something that you want to have it painted on your skin. I get that.
The problem is that there is a stigma attached because there is such a high correlation in the U.S. between people that show visible ink and the criminal element. In a perfect world people wouldn't need to pre-judge because trusting people wouldn't be inherently dangerous, but our world isn't perfect by a long shot.
In your particular case you are essentially breaking this stigma by building a solid reputation before showing ink. IMO that's a sensible compromise for someone that feels strongly about tattoos. There aren't very many people that feel so strongly about tattoos that they would change their opinion about someone's personality that they already knew and trusted, and the ones that would probably are not worth working for long term anyhow.
I realize that not everyone that gets a tattoo is doing it so that they can fit in with some kind of crowd. There are lots of very personal reasons for painting the body. The problem, like usual, is that the dorks spoil it for everyone. If criminals and other social misfits didn't tattoo themselves to mark themselves as part of a group then the stigma behind tattoos would go away. Unfortunately I don't see that happening.
Besides, I am married now and I don't think that my wife would appreciate me getting ink :).
**Unconventional people do the same thing. The difference is that they filter out the people in the suits and ties instead of the green hair and the nose rings.**
Sadly enough, its too true. I work for a city hospital in the IT field. I have subdermal implants, scarifications, large stretched piercings...etc etc. All of these modifications are rather "hardcore mods" yet they are not visible. I have these modifications for myself and myself only. A lot of my closest friends are tattoo artists and piercers AND i work for a large suspension team and i used to be a piercer for four years. Anyway, going to tattoo conventions, meeting other modified people, visiting tattoo shops....some of them (them as in "modified" people) look at me like i have no idea what im doing. Like i walked in to the wrong room. Yet when someone with green hair and visible tattoos walks in.....they get 50 cool points as opposed to me getting none.
I love the look on their faces when they realize how involved i actually am in this modification community though.
But whatever, i'll just go back to work at my well paying job and continue to live my life as i see fit.....as everyone else should.
If it wasn't for C, we would be stuck using BASI, PASAL and OBOL.