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EU Says No To Software Patents
Moggie68 writes "European parliament has . struck down the proposal for a directive that would have brought US-style software patents into EU." Here's another story on the decision.
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The patent lobby tried to sneak in software patents through the back door, by claiming that it was only about harmonization, that the directive wouldn't change anything, etc, etc. They failed.
The issue has led to the most intensive lobbying campaign ever in Brussels (from both sides). Whatever their position on the issue "as such" may be, there is not a single member of the European Parliament who now thinks that this is "just a small technical matter that can safely be left to the patent experts to decide on".
If the patent lobby wants to continue working for the legalization of patents on software and business methods (and they will), they will have to engage in a serious debate about the benefit/harm of such patents. And since they don't really have any arguments that can stand scrutiny in daylight, they will have a very difficult time.
Sure, the FFII would have preferred a directive that reaffirmed the ban on software patents in Article 52 of the European Patent Convention, and led to greater harmonization in Europe. Alas, that didn't happen, because the patent lobby got cold feet and preferred to kill the directive rather than risk a vote in Parliament that they would probably have lost.
But at least we didn't get a bad directive that wiped out Article 52 and forced national parliaments to introduce software patents against their will. The situation now is that software patents are illegal in Europe (as they always have been according to the EPC), but that we still have a European Patent Office that needs to be reined in so that it starts to follow the law.
But the law remains unchanged, and computer programs and methods of doing business are not considered patentable inventions.
Today was a great day in the battle for a free and open information infrastructure, and for a favorable business environment in Europe for enterprises that use or produce software.
Christian Engström, Former Member of the European Parliament 2009-2014 for The Pirate Party, Sweden
a day to celebrate a major victory for freedom and innovation everywhere.
Ok so the current score is 1-0 to the good guys, but I'm pretty sure the game isn't over yet...
Underholdning.info
The so-called software patent directive, rejected by a 648-14 vote with 18 abstentions, would have given companies EU-wide patent protection for computerized inventions ranging from programs for complex CAT scanners to ABS car-brake systems.
PWNED!!!
Hero of Allacrost, a FOSS RPG for *NIX/*BSD/OS X/Win
Congratulations to the http://www.ffii.org/ and all the European citizens!
:)
Today we're a bit closer to freedom
May the source be with you!
Congratulations to the FFII for all their hard work and patience campaigning against the directive!!! These people deserve all the support they can get.
For the time being I can rest assured that working as a programmer I do not have to watch my every statement.
Coca-Cola, sometimes War.
Although this definitely counts as a victory, it's not the best of all possible outcomes.
That would have been having the right amendments accepted, turning a bad law into a good one. (And having the law in place for all of the EU would have meant that it'd be impossible for the big software lobby to still push this through in individual countries, something which they're now likely to try.)
The battle has been won, but the war is far from over.
From the article on BBC:
Responding to the rejection the European Commission said it would not draw up or submit any more versions of the original proposal. .
Sounds like excellent news, but I doubt they'll give it up just yet, but this is a major setback (another one) for them.
Read the comments by the proponents of software patents. They view this as a minor setback in their quest for software patents.
This will be back for consideration, and sooner than most people realize.
You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
The individual countries can still regulate their own software patents, and this measure only made it so there is no EU wide guideline for sw patents.
What we really need is a directive to *ban* software patents on the EU level...
Here is a link to the offical EU press Release:
http://www2.europarl.eu.int/omk/sipade2?PUBREF=-/
Some really good comments in there from some clued in and angry MEPs...
Pablo
Personally my only problem with software patents is the length. I think that an 18-36 month patent is reasonable but anything over that is not.
So it turns out the EU Parliament has power, and actually can stop the EU Commission. I wonder how this would have turned out if the EU constitution in France and Netherlands wasn't rejected. I think this was a good moment for EU Parliament to show their muscle.
The UK PTO in particular has quite a hard on for patenting, and it is a UK Labour MEP who has been pushing hardest for patents.
"To any truly impartial person, it would be obvious that I am right."
That's a pretty big majority. To be honest, I expected the bill to slip through, or at least be a pretty close call either way based on what people have been telling me about the responses they have recieved from their MEPs.
I realise this wasn't really the best outcome, but it's a damn sight better than seeing that brutal directive sneak it's way into EU law.
She's built like a steak house, but she handles like a bistro....
From the article:
"You don't patent a mathematical formula, for software is merely a connection of a mathematical formula," said Michel Rocard, the former French Prime Minister who was in charge of steering the parliament debate.
Rocard, a deputy for the Socialist group, said patents worth tens of billions of dollars (euros) were potentially at stake and, in terms of impact on businesses, the bill was the most important piece of legislation the assembly has ever dealt with.
The patent system seems to work best when patents cover things. It seems to cause real damage when it covers such things as mathematical knowledge and software. Broader than just those two, though, is the application of patents to "systems" wherein the thing being patented is just a step of instructions. It is a far cry from a tangible item to a way to do something.
Some 178 amendments to the bill were tabled by lawmakers before the vote. In the end parliament decided to vote down the law, fearing the amendments would dilute it and make it an inadequate compromise.
"It was a mess. Better no directive than a bad directive," said Tony Robinson, spokesman for the Socialists.
Unfortunately, that seems to mean that the topic may come up again, only in a more streamlined and possibly more palatable bill. It is nice that OSS advocates are crying foul against the patent system, but the real change will come when private businesses understand the threat posed by an all-encompassing patent system.
Jesus saved me from my past. He can save you as well.
http://wiki.vrijschrift.org/EP050706 (CoralCache) has the videos and transcripts.
Trollem mirabilem hanc subnotationis exigiutas non caperet
NOW is the time for everyone in the USA to start protesting against the same practices in the US. No software patents anywhere!
(Of course, the US will lose significant competition against european companies who will be much more at liberty to innovate... this hurts YOUR business)
Anybody got a list of those MEPs who voted in favour of this? Just want to make sure there are no familiar names.
Too bad the EU constitution was rejected, it would have given more power to parliament instead of the comission which is composed of appointed bureaucrats instead of elected representatives.
One very good outcome of this is that the average European Joe Schmoe is now more aware of the issue and the MEPs are more aware of the sentiments within the industry. No more will the pro-patent lobby be able to sneak software patents in through the back door. That, in itself, is a huge victory.
A huge thanks to everybody who helped defeat the directive, be it with a single short e-mail to an MEP or actively spending hundreds of hours on the issue.
Thank you!
Lemon curry???
That is ONLY because FFII put it up like that and only because FFII alerted MEPs about the importance of this directive in the first place.
If it weren't for FFII, this directive would be accepted two years ago. I've followed this debate from the first proposal of the Commision: if Hartmut Pilch wouldn't have been there - nobody would have even noticed or understood the implications of this directive.
FFII has proven to be more mature and professional then the professional EU lobbies, that have been doing this for decades. I am so glad to be on this team and to see this historical victory.
This is just brilliant. I had a the honor of having one of my photos used in the anti patents posters. I am very happy that someone has made them see sense.
We made history today. This day will be remebered as the day when Europe dodged the bullet. Few more years, and all technological progres will grind down to a full stop here in the US and we technologically clueful people will all have to go look for jobs elsewhere. Pereferably a place where we will not be sued for infringing on trivial patents...
I'm teminally incoherent
Except that the underpinnings of all the abstractions the average programmer uses are mathematically based.
I don't think we can patent the basics of logic either, so even when the syntax actually doesn't have any numbers, it's basic reasoning is still mathematical.
And honestly, I can't think of an actual programming language that doesn't use mathematical operators of some kind. Even VBScripting uses it in some bastardised fashion.
It sounds like the ostrich head-in-the-sand argument. I can't see it, hence it doesn't exist.
Linux - because it doesn't leave that Steve Ballmer aftertaste.
This isn't a "victory over patents", it just means that the situation isn't resolved.
EPO (the European Patent Office) still have given out several thousands patents for software (and they continue to do so). These are not void until they are tried individually in court.
Så, basically there could be three results:
1. The directive was accepted with the possibility of software patents (which would be preferred for pro-patent-people)
2. The directive was accepted without the possibility of software patents (which would be preferred for con-patent-people)
3. The directive was dropped
The latter is the case. So there are no general guidelines. Of course this still means that bunch of patents wouldn't hold in court, but that road is much longer than a general guideline preventing the patents in the first place.
- Peter Brodersen; professional nerd
Yesterday's article said that most MEP would probably vote NO - but the vote was only done today.
Thus, there existed the chance that they might get a change of heart etc. and vote YES instead...
We already had prematurely celebrated the Patent Directive dead once already - when Sweden etc. said it wanted to move it from a A-point to a B-point, but then was basically ignored by the Council during the meeting - and the Directive was passed to the EP for second reading.
NOW we can say that the Directive, in its current form, is dead.
+++ MELON MELON MELON +++ Out of Cheese Error +++ redo from start +++
Man....now moving to Europe sounds even better. I won't be prosecuted for "developing" one-click shopping.
Thank god there's somewhere that understands what's going on.
P.S. I'm a Computer Science major, who's intending to go on to law school...does anyone have any suggestions where to go? I'm looking for a good school with a strong department in intellectual property/patent law/internet law/etc...I'm also looking for proximity to large cities (especially NYC and DC)...
AccountKiller
WOO HOO!
The FFII server is horribly overloaded at the moment, so here's their press release. (Slightly edited for anti-lameness) You can get info on todays vote at http://wiki.ffii.org/PrReject050706En once it gets back up.
From jmaebe ffii.org Wed Jul 6 15:15:16 2005
Date: Wed, 06 Jul 2005 13:03:50 +0200
From: Jonas Maebe
To: news ffii.org
Subject: [ffii] European Parliament says no to software patents, yes to innovation
**European Parliament says no to software patents, yes to innovation**
Strasbourg, 6 July 2005 -- The European Parliament today decided by a large majority to reject the software patents directive. This rejection was the logical answer to the Commission's refusal to restart the legislative process in February and the Council's unwillingness to engage in any kind of dialogue with the Parliament. The FFII congratulates the European Parliament on its clear "no" to bad legislative proposals and procedures.
This is a great victory for those who have campaigned to ensure that European innovation and competitiveness is protected from the threat of software and business process patents. It marks the end of this attempt by the European Commission to codify into law the US-style practice of the European Patent Office. We believe that the Parliament's work, in particular the 21 compromise amendments, provides a good basis on which future legislative projects can build.
Rejection provides breathing space for new initiatives based on all the knowledge gained during the last five years. All institutions are now fully aware of the concerns of all stakeholders. However, the fact that the Council Common Position needs 21 amendments in order to be transformed into a coherent piece of legislation indicates that the text is simply not ready to enter the Conciliation between Parliament, Commission and Council. We hope the Commission and Council will at least respond to the concerns raised by Parliament the next time, in order to avoid this sort of backlash in the future.
Jonas Maebe, FFII Board Member, comments on the outcome of today's vote:
"This result clearly shows that thorough analysis, genuinely concerned citizens and factual information have more impact than free ice-cream, boatloads of hired lobbyists and outsourcing threats. I hope this turn of events can give people new faith in the European decision making process. I also hope that it will encourage the Council and Commission to model after the European Parliament in terms of transparency and the ability of stakeholders to participate in the decision-making process irrespective of their size."
The FFII wishes to thank all those people who have taken the time to contact their representatives. We also thank the numerous volunteers who have so generously given their time and energy. This is your victory as well as the Parliament's.
Background Information
Free ice-cream for patentability
http://wiki.ffii.org/CampIcecream050601En
Software patent lobbyists add boats to their arsenal
http://lists.ffii.org/pipermail/news/2005-July/000 297.html
Pictures of the boating
http://gallery.ffii.org/Strasbourg050705
Permanent link to this press release
http://wiki.ffii.org/PrReject050706En
Contact Information
Hartmut Pilch and Holger Blasum
FFII Munich Office
info@ffii.org
++49-89-18979927
Rufus Pollock
FFII UK
rufus.pollock@ffii.org.uk
+44-7795-176976
Jonas Maebe
FFII BE
jmaebe@ffii.org
+32-485-369645
Dieter Van Uytvanck
FFII BE
dietvu@village.uunet.be
+32-499-167010
About FFII -- http://www.ffii.org/
The Foundation fo
Any sufficiently advanced libertarian utopia is indistinguishable from government.
The EPO (European Patent Office) has granted patents on algorithms for years, despite the fact that they are illegal under the current European legislation. And it seems that the fight will go on there (cf. this article).
However, considering today's vote, the patent offices can not anymore claim that their interpretation of the law have a political backup.
--Go Debian!
Also, if the law was rejected, it is because a few ppl had a large bunch of amendments ready that would have "denatured" (in the view of large software companies) the adventage software patent could have given them...
:
r ective/
/ ar52.html of patent bureau clearly says that purely software patent are not to be, and that should be enough to cancel the existing ones....
see The Register article here
"According to the Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure, conservative MEP Klaus-Heiner Lehne is trying to establish a majority of MEPs to vote for a rejection of the Council's "Common Position", even before any amendments are discussed.
The FFII says it is no coincidence that supporters of the Common Position, like Lehne, are now calling for the directive to be dropped. It claims that parliament is close to establishing a majority of MEPs in support of the amendments tabled by Michel Rocard. The amendments would put limits on patentability, it argues, and so the directive should only be rejected if the 367 votes needed to pass the changes cannot be found."
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/07/05/patent_di
So in effects the cancelling of the law is not so much a victory as a move by the opponents to pospone the problem until they have a better chance of passing it under their own terms, US style....
Also I totally agree with your view on the grey area actual patents are in, but article 52 http://www.european-patent-office.org/legal/epc/e
We just need someone to enforce the existing rules....which is an other problem altogether...
It takes 40+ muscles to frown, but only four to extend your arm and bitchslap the motherfucker
Except that the Commission said in advance of today's vote that they wouldn't be attempting to push this through any further if it was voted down. In the absence of that, I believe there is a minimum 3 year gap before the same issue can be considered again.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
I get the feeling this is a war that will continue for as long as American corporations have software patents. Can this rulling be used to restart the debate in the US? What is the point of patents if they can only be enforced in one market (all be it a VERY large market)?
Scared of flying, pointy things snce 1979!
I haven't seen a list of MEPs who voted against striking it down, or those who abstained.
If anyone has a list it would certainly be useful when the next elections roll around.
Cheers,
Noims.
This is not the greatest sig in the world. This is just a tribute.
And unfortunately, the GATT TRIPS agreements mean that the WTO will be forcing the individual signatory countries (such as the UK) to enact software patents.
GCHQ Quantum Insert installed. If only our tongues were made of glass, how much more careful we would be when we speak
It may hurt, but it is the truth. Sometimes the truth hurts. Just think of how Canada feels: we have to live beside them...
Back in March, in the week that Microsoft successfully lobbied the EU Council of Ministers to oppose the EU Parliament's version of the directive, and import the US software-patent regime to Europe, guess what else they did.
A mere four days after trying to foist software patents on Europe, they announced that the US system needed to be reformed. Of course what they had in mind is not necessarily what the rest of us want - though they are aware of some of the problems. They suggested:
But it's interesting that Bill Gates recognised publicly that if the current patent regime had been in place when Microsoft was young, they never would have made it!
Paul "Say no to feeping creaturism"
I searched some on the webpage but couldn't find any list on this.
Anyone know where I can find it so that I decide on who will get my vote next time?
You are not entitled to your opinion. You are entitled to your informed opinion. -- Harlan Ellison
"This isn't 1940 where computers are simply solving math problems."
:
This is possibly the most idiotic statement I have ever read. In what way is software not entirely a mathematical field? Have you the slightest inkling of what computer science is?
Software, in all its forms, from the highest level Haskell to the tightest x86 machine code, from the elegance of Scheme to the pure sickness of Befunge, is represented as regular groups of symbols encoded in a numerical form. The abstract machines that give meaning to these symbols can also be encoded in any of these forms . The presence of hardware is incidental : everything that has been done or can be done with software is performable by a purely mental process. How anyone can believe this does not qualify as a field of pure mathematics is beyond me.
In summary, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. I think a better statement might be
"This isn't 3000BC where mathematics is simply solving mathematics problems."
The only sad thing is the feeling of surprise this generated...
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
648 MEPs all voted to reject the directive, but for how many different reasons? This number probably includes both supporters of software patents who feared an amended directive (for no good reason, I should add) and those who were angry at the Council for scrapping all the amendments already made by the Parliament back in 2003. I don't think it means 648 MEPs are decidedly opposed to software patents.
I don't know who those 14 were, but I'd like to know. However, I wouldn't rule out they may have included one or two brave individuals who wanted to give the 21 Rocard-Buzek-Duff amendments a chance (to reject software patents, rather than reject the directive). If your purpose with asking "why" is to identify potential allies, then fine, but why not ask all the other MEPs the same question?
If I understand correctly, the plan was to go through all the 178 (?) amendment proposals and vote on each one, after which a final vote would be held on whether the directive was now in an acceptable state or should be rejected anyway. The advice from FFII was to first vote for the 21 Rocard-Buzek-Duff amendments, but later vote to reject the directive if those amendments didn't achieve the necessary majority.
Now the proposal to reject the directive was made already before the amendments, meaning that we will never know how our elected representatives would have voted on the issues of substance, and I fear that may have been yet another reason for some MEPs to vote "no" early - they preferred not to show their cards if they didn't have to. In that light, kicking 14 MEPs in the back for asking to see the result of 178 amendment votes seems like a bad idea. They are too small a group to even be concerned about, and you will only encourage future MEPs to take the safe option and vote in unison like a flock of sheep, regardless of the issue.
Here is the slightly worrying meat of the matter (from TFA):
So it seems that the bill was not voted down because the anti-SWPAT people were able to persuade the voters of the rightness of their cause, but that it was spammed with amendments until it collapsed under its own weight.
Still a good thing, of course, but it would have been nicer to have this stupid idea explicitly faced down.
--
What short sigs we have -
One hundred and twenty chars!
Too short for haiku.
Please, mod parent up. Sure, this might hurt for some patriotic people, and some won't even see the truth in it, but I'm sure this guy get's support from a lot of people all over the world, including the US.
You clearly have no idea what mathematics is.
Do you think that all of maths is simple arithmetic? I hope you realise that apply is a mathematical operator : this is what you would refer to as "calling a method". Defining a function is an equation. Do I really have to spell it out for you? Everything in your programs is mathematical. Not necessarily arithmetical. Please learn the difference.
Practically all programming language semantic research is couched in the terms of category or set theory. That you don't know this doesn't mean it isn't so. Look it up if you have more than a passing interest in your career.
When a patent claims something like the "method of drag and drop", it is claiming that all possible symbolic forms that implement this method are infringing. These forms, like every program you have ever written, are mathematical. The big issue is that the form is not being claimed as in a copyrighted work or a physical patent: it is the very concept of solving the problem that is being claimed. Once you have spotted a problem, you immediately control all possible solutions.
I just can't imagine them giving up so soon. As has been stated even before this vote, they will go after more local governments next. Following that, what is to stop them from trying it again later? (Is there some rule that says they can't?)
As for the US needing patent reform? Yeah, it's pretty clear to "us" from our perspective, but the average joe doesn't care one way or the other but the moment they hear "they are trying to stop us from patenting things" the public will conjure up images of Ben Franklin and Thomas Edison tinkering in their home laboratories and think how un-American it would be to prevent people from patenting stuff. It has to be shown how it hurts them before the public will care about this and telling them "hey, you could have had much cooler and cheaper stuff..." it's a particularly effective argument since it's essentially viewed as speculation rather than fact.
It's easier to see in Europe what the potential harm to their market would be -- the U.S.'s head start in patent portfolios would make the sting pretty obvious.
So then I wonder, what angle or spin would be most effective against the general public to help them understand the need for patent reform in the U.S.?
I'd like to know the names of those few who voted YES.
The council is composed of the ministers of each member states. So to say it is undemocratic is the same as saying the elected governments in each state is undemocratic.
The commission is more like the civil service in member states, it's members are apointed by the member states governments. I do not know of any country where the civil service is elected. This is why the commission hasn't been given the powers to bring in laws on its own, with out the aproval of the council and the European parliment.
The EU is as (or more) democratic than it's member states. The bigest problem is some times goverments say one thing at home and vote the oposite in Europe and then try to say Europe is imposing something on them.
Interesting... During the Brussels demoes last year, parliament security was very strict about the "no protest T-shirts within the parliament" rule...
The colour refers to the FFII comparing the European Commission to a banana republic.
Actually, the yellow T-Shirts were used long before the "no banana union" slogan. AFAIK, yellow was chosen because it is a bright color.
However, the banana peel hanging on the pedestrian's traffic light just opposite the European Parliament is there because of that comparison, hehe.
Holy crap! Does it mean companies will have to be satisfied with EU-wide patent protection only for computerized inventions ranging from complex CAT scanners to ABS car-brake systems instead? Now that seems like a real threat to European innovation; these companies will surely fall victims to foreign competitors selling computerized ABS car-brake systems involving no hardware components at all...
The more reinforcement from lots of people that software patents are a bad thing, the better. And apart from their salaries and pensions etc, I'm sure they feel generally unloved.
Deleted
Please would you post some of your mythical non-maths based code? I have a feeling you are beyond help.
A pure mental process that is based on consistent symbolic manipulation is extremely difficult to paint as anything but maths. What do you think it is ? Interpretive dance? Woodcraft?
I would love to know what you believe mathematics is. I'm guessing that you think it is arithmetic.
And as to your MS : the standards for getting a degree in this field are shockingly bad. I know people with even less clue than you who have degrees in CS. I have one too, but I don't think that it alone proves anything. Your statements show that you are very confused.
That was what would have happened today, in an ideal world.
Bad outcome: CIID passed as tabled by the Commission and their backers, Microsoft, Nokia, etc.
Good outcome: CIID amended to prohibit software patents (~367 majority required)
Neutral/okayish outcome: CIID defeated at second reading; patent situation remains as is (software patents prohibited by European Patent Convention, but individual countries allow them anyway)
Today, the good guys couldn't be sure of the 367 votes necessary to pass their ammendments. Therefore they chose the safe option, and voted to reject the CIID entirely.
Microsoft, Nokia et al will on no account allow a directive to be passed that prohibits pure software patents, so they had their MEPs likewise vote to reject the CIID, rather than risk having the ammendments of M. Rocard and co. be implemented.
If you want to show your appreciation, don't even consider e-mail. Use snail mail instead, maybe even handwritten. It clearly demonstrates that you think it's worth both the postage and your effort to write and send it, and the recipient hardly risks getting spammed that way.
Sending e-mail to congratulate someone is almost like sending a get-well-card postage-due. It's cheap, in every possible sense of the word.
You are a real nutcase.
If I have the rules to the machine, abstract or physical, and I have the code, then I can laboriously perform the instructions. Are you seriously denying that this is the case? Can you imagine doing one instruction?
push 20h
Can you imagine doing the next one?
call 401010
Oh look, by induction, you can imagine performing the whole program. Big fucking surprise.
I never said it would be easy or fun, or that it would finish in a single lifetime. But clearly it can be performed as a mental process.
On to planes. Planes, and all other mechanical devices, work because they obey physical "laws". These laws are mathematical generalisations that we have tested against the world for a long time and failed to disprove. The maths does not generate the laws, it is merely a statement about them. That we can use the maths to design other physical items does not mean that these items are suddenly pure maths. They simply obey the same "constant conjunctions" that we have observed for everything else in the physical world. Read some Hume, ingrate.
Your logical fallacies are unbeatable. Keep it up.
The European Patent Convention from the 80s already prohibits patents on "programs for computers". The catch is that the EPO doesn't follow it, although it should.
Doesn't that provide a slam-dunk defense for anyone accused of infringing a software patent? It seems that if you were sued for infringement you could just point out to the court that the patent was erroneously issued. After a couple such cases, the precedent would be firmly established and future defendants would hardly have to do more than show up.
Further, it would seem to deter holders of such invalid patents from pressing their claims, because pressing a claim would just get the patent invalidated. Since a valid but unenforceable patent is a (very) little bit more useful than an invalidated patent, holders would have to think twice about filing "harassment" suits that they know they'll lose.
Obviously, it would be better if the EPO didn't issue those patents.
Note to ACs: I usually delete AC replies without reading them. If you want to talk to me, log in.
1. The US has started (and "encouraged") more wars and murdered more humans in a 50 year period than anyone else before in recorded history.
Nope, sorry. Try again. Think "Hitler".
PJRC: Electronic Projects, 8051 Microcontroller Tools
Oh, frighteningly stupid people get degrees all the time... I know someone with a II.1 in CS from the country's top university who struggles with the idea of pointers.
Me (Blog)
"to get away from the 1s and 0s that are actually doing the calculations."
So you really do beleive that mathematics is just arithmetic. I think this is where the disconnect is: mathematics is by its very nature the process of abstraction that you use to get away from any other representation you already have. It is not just adding and dividing, or other simple operators you learned when you were two.
Look up some fields of more abstract maths: category theory, topography, etc. Are you going to advocate promoting a small field of discrete maths to being "not maths" merely because we can make machines to perform that maths easily? Or that some people who use the machines don't understand them? If so, then arithmetic is not maths, because a lot of people use calculators, and don't know how to divide numbers without one.
Yep, it is amazing how many people in the places I usually work ( big name investment banks) just randomly play around with & and * until they get something to compile. Then they assume it is all ok ;-).
I think it is to do with the way things are taught : I strongly believe CS needs to be taught both top down and bottom up at the same time. All too often an approach known as "Java is all the world, and all the world is Java" is used in preference to showing people everything from AND gates to dependent type systems. Multiple passes through all these layers are needed too. But then unis would need to chuck out 75% of people in the first year...
I contacted the lib dems and UKIP a few months back.
lib dems: Email back about how they were very unhappy about the way the council was ignoring parliament, possibly planning to take a stance simply for the power-struggle between parliament and council, rather than for the merits of patents. Though I guess if they had been in favour of the legislation, they would have gone with it.
UK Independence Party: a letter in the post (!) back complaining about how the EU was always interfering, it was our right to set our own patent laws, etc. I don't know if they were in favour or not; their ideology was in the way.
First off, I'm a big fan of Europe. I think getting the continent on the same basic human rights, and in a good trade zone, are all good things. I even like the euro (speaking as a Brit, we've yet to decide as a country). But I can't stand the behind-closed-doors, elitist attitude of the Commission and the European Central Bank.
"Patents will continue to be handled by national patent offices ... as before, which means different interpretations as to what is patentable, without any judiciary control by the European Court of Justice," said EU External Relations Commissioner Benita Ferrero-Waldner, representing the EU head office at the vote.
At least the way I read it, the guy is saying that it was a bad decision, and if only those poor ignorant elected representatives had made the right choice and rubber stamped what the bureaucrats asked them to, everything could be a lot better under superior, central control with limited accountability. Just like the recent votes on the constitution, the idea that just maybe the "elite" are fucking up big time and need to get back in touch with what their citizens want simply doesn't seem to occur to them.
Pisses me off big time, I tell you. I want a Europe for all the people, not a bunch of wannabes who often seem to view the European project as a more acceptable alternative to war as a method to conquer, rather than a democratic opportunity.
Sorry, I'm ranting here. Congrats to all those that made our views heard. Yes, the pro-patent lobby also voted against the bill out of fear of the amendments, but those amendments may never have been there in the first place without the anti-software patent people doing their thing.
The council consist of ministers from the local governments, who are appointed by the prime minister, who are elected by a majority of the parliament, whose members are elected by the people.
The commission consists of people apointed by the local governments.
In both cases the best we can hope for is a tripple indirect democracy.
This is ok as long as the directly elected representives can propose and reject legislation. This is the case in the national parliaments, but in the EU parliament they cannot propose legislation, and the rules have deliberately made it very difficult for them to reject legislation. This is actually the first time the parliament have managed to get enough votes to reject a law.
As if it it wasnt hard enough getting work this side of the atlantic! Not only do we have to deal with work getting outsourced to india - pretty soon we'll have to compete with the wave of hungry refugee-programmers pouring in from the US :-(
"... always going forward 'cause we cant find reverse! "
Warning, the article is pretty disgusting. ~Knaldgas
You can download the full European Parliament press conference after the vote with this torrent (AVI file (DIVX), 48 minutes).
Magnet URI for Azureus (remove the space before the last two chars):
It's very interesting because it shows that the MEPs really know what this is all about and most of them have a position surprisingly similar to the FFII!
Josep Borrell (EP President) and Michel Rocard (MEP) speak very clearly about what's wrong with software patents, the Council of the European Union, the European Commission, Microsoft, etc.
Unfortunately the first 4 minutes are only translated in Italian, but all the important things are in English.
Please after completing the download continue to seed as long as possible.
There's a hidden treasure in Python 3.x: __prepare__()
Now that this directive has been defeated, now is the time to write congress and get them to think - if the EU has voted against this, perhaps it's time they take alook at our own system and engage in reform.
Especially if presented as a case for helping small businesses (the engine that drives the economy) it seems like at least a few people in congress would be willing to champion a second look at the mess we have today, when presented with some rational arguments why they might want to roll back the power of software patents as they stand.
This further helps the EU as well, as it turns the battle into one of multiple fronts instead of just letting pro-patent people focus on the EU until they break.
"There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
No it isn't. Yes there is some truth there, but quite a few exaggerations and obmissions, too.
I doubt that the US "... murdered more humans in a 50 year period than anyone else before ..." - WW2 cost roughly 50 million lives.
And while the US-Americans could certainly do with taking some responsibility for the actions of their government and look honestly at the crimes which were commited and mistakes which were made, other countries should do the very same.
The US might be the biggest polluter, but the EU and Canada are not that far behind. The US is not the only country selling military technology to corrupt dictatorships and propping up criminal regimes. The US is not the only country who stands by when genocide occurs in Dafur or Rwanda. It's pathetic that the US refuses to do anything about global warming, but the little the rest of us does about it is pathetic, too.
Long live innovation through competition - not litigation.
I produce roughly 20000-25000 lines of code every 4-5 months, and I hate the thought that I can be accused of stealing someone elses idea every time I write 10-20 lines code - in fact it insults me. Lets hope europe will some day move to illigalize software patent on a national level. I want fredom to develop thank you! Not this thing the pro-patent politicians call "protection". It only protects big companies with big patentportfolios from having to compete by way of building the best products.
Now we Americans will have to compete against Europeans with technology instead of lawyers.
So close! We almost had them!
Intellectual property law ideally should strike a balance between rewarding producers of intellectual property and allowing society to benefit from innovation. Through the efforts of lobbyists, the system has become skewed to benefit technological incumbents, at the expense of the public good.
s /maurer.htm
While a market based means of rewarding producers of intellectual property is essential, its primary goal must be to maximize benefit to society. Intellectual property protection comes with a cost. Protection is an artificial legal monopoly. It is an economic fact that monopolies are anticompetitive, restrict the functioning of the free market, and result in higher costs to consumers and lost opportunity for businesses.
The 20 year duration of a "utility" patent is an eternity in the world of technology. The video cassette, for example, ran its entire course from invention to obsolescence in about 20 years. In software, this cycle is more like 5 years. The 20 year period is entirely inappropriate for software.
The United States granted patentability to software and business methods. The result has been the granting of absurd patents, such as the "one-click" patent awarded to Amazon. There are numerous examples of equally absurd patents for software that are as obvious to a software engineer as the "one-click" idea is obvious to anyone who's ever used a mouse. Billions have been wasted on meritless lawsuits like the SCO lawsuit against IBM. An entire industry of "patent terrorists" has evolved which produce nothing but IP lawsuits. Clearly this is not furthering innovation.
Sadly, the US congress is so controlled by corporate lobbyists that the plain and simple best interest of the public loses out to the narrow, but well financed interests of intellectual property holders. It's nice to see that the EU parliament is not quite so corrupted, yet.
I refer you to Stanford professor Lawrence Lessig and Berkeley professor Stephen M. Maurer for more information on this issue.
http://www.lessig.org/
http://violet.berkeley.edu/~gspp/people/affiliate
For those so inclined, consider supporting the EFF:
http://www.eff.org/
-cbare
Someone posted the warning that we should be ever vigilant, because big corps and all the pro-swpat cronies will not rest untill they get what they want, and that they would try other means if this directive failed.
Well, gues what: the FIRST SIGNS are already there. Here is a comment I stumbled upon already:
"During the debate on Tuesday, Commissioner Joaquín ALMUNIA told MEPs: "Should you decide to reject the common position, the Commission will not submit a new proposal." Attention now moves to the proposed directive for a Community patent, currently in discussion in the Council, mentioned by a number of MEPs as the appropriate legislative instrument to address the issue of software patentability."
So, now, it's not the CII anymore, but something weasily called the 'community patent'. Let's be very watchful on these sudden outbursts of 'helpful' patentreforms, and deny anyone to amend something to the point that it becomes a second software patent directive.
--- "To pee or not to pee, that is the question." ---
The concept of drag and drop is not mathematical. It is a concept. You are patenting the concept,
That's exactly what mathematics is about. Concepts. It is the science of concepts and abstraction, purely mental things (that, by coincidence, can be run on hardware). In this case, the highlevel concept of "drag and drop" is transformed by the programmer to the lowlevel concepts in a certain programming language. A purely mathematical process.
I know that CS research has a mathemetical basis, but this has NOTHING TO DO WITH SOFTWARE DEVELOPMENT.
So, what do you think is the topic of CS research then? I have tried to follow the thread, and forgive me, but you don't have a clue.
I happen to have designed a programming/query language for XML (and got a PhD for it - google for Xcerpt if you are interested), and believe me, this is indeed purely mathematics. As Edsger Dijkstra said: "Computer science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes."
Sebastian