Slashdot Mirror
EFF Requests Help to Identify "Evil" Printers
jason writes "In preparation for a possible legal challenge, The Electronic Frontiers Foundation is requesting your help in identifying which printers are embedding traceable information in the documents they produce. Printer manufactures added this technology under persuasion from the government inorder to help combat counterfeiting operations, however this technology defeats the presumed anonymity most people expect from the documents they print."
I wonder if the government will be using these printers themselves, they have more to hide than anyone else. Now when a confidential document is leaked it can be more easily tied to a government official.
"Crean describes the device as a chip located "way in the machine, right near the laser" that embeds the dots when the document "is about 20 billionths of a second" from printing.
.
"Standard mischief won't get you around it," Crean adds."
Sounds like your classical security through obscurity bluster. It is probably not that hard to bypass at all using no more than a chewing gum wrapper and a paperclip. The best way to defeat this might not be legally but instead with some simple FAQ's on the internet describing how to disable the "feature".
Can someone work out how to do this please.
Yes, the first thing I think about when printing out mapquest directions is whether the government will know which printer printed it! OMFG what if they know someone wants to go to Boston?!?!?! HOLY SHIT!
But I guess it'd be easier for them just to track my ezpass tag!
Millimeter sized? Hell, I'd think a printer was dirty or something. Those are awfully big and noticable.?
How exactly is this supposed to work? I buy a printer with cash from Office Max, take it home, and print some phony money. The money is reported to the secret service, which takes it to the printer manufacturer, which tells them that the printer was shipped to an Office Max in my town.
Assume I had the common sense to only use the printer for counterfeiting. What exactly do they do now? Get a warrant for every house within 50 miles of said Office Max, and check the serial number on all the printers?
Im sorry, but the word 'evil' is really being used far too much on slashdot to talk about stuff that isnt evil in anyway, shape or form. It reminds me of the RIAAs usage of the word 'steal', and both parties are using the words wrongly to provide a very specific view in other peoples minds of things that they personally do not like IMHO.
Who cares? So the government could possibly link the printout from MapQuest, cheats for Grand Theft Auto, and Timmy's Amazon wishlist that I threw away came from my printer. Big deal.
The only time when I can see this being useful to the Government is if I'm doing something wrong. You know, harassing my ex, threatening the President, and that junk.
Free of Flash! Free of Flash!
What kind of evil are we talking about here? The kind where replacement cartridges cost more than the printer itself? Or drivers that are fully supported under Windows but Linux requires black magic to work? Or that cables are not included?
It's nice to see the EFF trying to stamp out the evil printers. But there's a lot of work to be done.
Somebody ask
- Alexander Hamilton (later the first Secretary of the Treasury of the United States, the same Treasury that Lorelei Pagano now works for),
- James Madison (later fourth President of The United States), or
- John Jay (later first Chief Justice of the United States Supreme Court)
why they published the Federalist Papers anonymously under the name "Publius".Ask them if they'd have been able to write the these brilliant arguments that shaped the Constitution of the United States of America if the very paper they'd printed it on could have been used to strip then of their anonymity?
Could they have made their arguments as forcefully, would they have allowed their ideas to have been so revolutionary, if they had known any political opponent could trace those papers back to them, perhaps deny them jobs or political offices because of disagreement with their ideas?
Would we even have the Constitution that we have today if these great men had not been able to use the pen-name "Publius"?
Hamilton and Madison and Jay forged (ahem) our Constitution in anonymity, but counterfeiting specialist Lorelei Pagano tells us that those three silly boys didn't need their anonymity? That in order to be safe from counterfeiters, we have to give up our right to anonymous politically agitation?
How much more security can this country -- this nation conceived in anonymity -- survive?
Opinions on the Twiddler2 hand-held keyboard?
This administration is neither the first nor the last one to use law enforcement officers to harrass the opposition. Practical freedom of the press is undermined when it is too hard to write anonymously.
Yeah, sure... it's great, until something you'd like to print becomes politically unpopular.
Except the Evil is subjective and Steal has a definite meaning.
How do "most people expect anonymity from the documents they print?"
Printed pages are NEVER anonymous. Apart from fingerprints, DNA traces, ink and paper matching, how many people print stuff that they pass out anonymously? Most letters have a sender, books and other prints have a copyright note. And once you distribute any printed materials, others can trace it back.
If you go to the trouble to buy the printed at Best Buy at a best buy 500 miles from your home with cash that you got from a bank while wearing a full body condom and face mask, don't transport it in your car, and keep it in a clean room at an anonymous location, I agree that you probably expect privacy. But at that point, you have probably been arrested as a weirdo somewhere along the way.
I'd just like to point out that if it forces you to make a low-res photocopy of your counterfeit currency, you either aren't going to be able to use it successfully or will be easily caught. Therefore, the system will have worked as it was intended, and you will have destroyed nothing.
If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else.
They both have definite meanings. What you mean is, "'Evil' doesn't have a legal definition and 'steal' does."
Don't confuse legality and morality; they are unrelated.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
We still don't have a national database on bullet striations to uniquely identify all guns by the bullets they fire but the government is all over making sure that we uniquely identify all printers by the paper they've printed? That's crazy.
I doubt the EFF will be as successful as the NRA.
Do this, and the EFF will have a larger, more diverse database of printer identifications than any manufacturer. And just where's their Privacy Policy on this?
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
The article is about laser printers, which don't use ink.
My other car is first.
I think many of you are missing the point here. This is NOT to be able to take a document and track it back to a specific printer, but rather to irrefutably link the document and the printer.
"They" will never find a counterfeit document and then look for the printer, they will find the printer and then link the documents printed as corroborating evidence. This will be used once a suspect is available and a with a search warrant present and the printer seized, now with the micro-dot encoded serial number they can prove that Document A was definitely printed on Xerox Model X3Y Serial number: sdf78s6d5sdf46s4df98 which resides in the office a Mr. John Q. Public. at 321 Main St. Spingfield, MA; this removes plausibly deniability from the case. No more will a printed document carry any form of anonymity, there will be no reasonable doubt if this is called into evidence at a trial, do you REALLY want an almost iron-clad evidence of every document printed to be available?
So why is everyone so upset ? The stupid people who counterfit money will give away the printer model they used, not a big deal.
The Federalists maybe: The Federalist Papers. Alexander Hamilton and James Madison didn't want the British government to know who was writing them.
I can see where I might want to remain anonymous in a letter to my congress critter accusing him of being brain dead. I'm not advocating anonymous threats, just private dissent.
Enjoy,
It's just the normal noises in here.
Given the history of the government's treatment of dissenters, there is legitimate claim to be worried..
People shouldn't be added to a "watch list" becuase they handed out anti-war fliers, or get a visit at work from the Secret Service when they satarize Bush..
If Senator McCarthy was around now, I could just imagine him hauling up people to the Senate or HUAC accusing people who printed "subversive" fliers asking them if they were communists..
If you don't like slashdot then don't read it! Unless you have something intelligent to say, just don't click the post button. Click your browser's close button and go back to surfing boinkboink or whatever it's called.
My other car is first.
I understand the marking is done with yellow ink. It seems one would be able to expose a lot of these printers by replacing (or contaminating) the yellow ink with black.
So what you're saying is... you work for Ricoh
Maybe because there is a legitimate need of not having your printouts tracked? And because they're the Electronic Frontier Foundation, not the Gun Frontier Foundation.
Anyway, the gun tracking is mostly looking for manufacturing defects that somehow mark up the bullet as it's fired (scraping off pieces of metal as it's shot through the barrel). Gun makers are not intentionally putting tracking data on to the bullets!
My other car is first.
If you want to print something sensitive, perhaps you could create a yellow background for the document... unless the driver is smart enough to do something else in that condition.
No, I don't trust in god. He'll have to pay up front, like everybody else.
It's the same point as the FBI in the U.S. being able to review your library records even though they'll probably never need to.
(In other words, there is no point.)
Yet for some reason I think that the French were fully justified in sinking the Rainbow Warrior.
You approve of bombing a ship and killing one of it's crew? That's tantamount to condoning state sponsored terrorism. Expect a visit from law enforcement any minute now.
Couldn't you lose the "feature" where the printer damages itself?
If you stopped the counterfeiting attempt, no need to do anything else.
And what about false positives, people trying to use that "feature" to break a copy shop's printer, etc?
Even if the gov't asked or ordered that you stop the copy attempt, it is a bit much for them to ask or order you to act as judge, jury, and executioner in requiring the printer to damage itself.
Anyone know the secret codes to unbreak the printers.
Post them here.
The only ones that should be able to order a printer destroyed is a COURT, after a TRIAL.
Not any other way.
Just because it CAN be done, doesn't mean it should!
All of these are non-violent or fall into the category of "I would be surprised if you were not making it up". My friend runs legal support for arrested Greenpeace activists and would not be involved in anything more drastic than trespassing on an illegal incinerator so the owners have to call the police (and be shut down).
Any evidence forthcoming that Greenpeace have ever engaged in spiking trees (not Earth First or ELF), or is this just mongolboy asshattedness?
Let's say somebody buys a printer to use for counterfeiting. To be safe, they buy it cash, using false ID, in a different city... etc etc
While the serial ID might be somewhat less-than-useful in tracking down the individual culprit to his/her home, if you start finding a lot of bills with the same serial you could at least determine that they were all produced by the same person/printer (rather than several different printers/counterfeiters). From that, you might gather logistics based on the area-spread wherein the phony bills are used, etc.
You've been watching too much CSI, if you think this type of evidence is easily tracked and stored. Since it is obvious that you don't know much about guns, I will explain something. Markings on bullets and shells are very easy to change and is very much subject to conditions. It would be a waste of money to try and store and track all of this information. It appears however that tracking serial numbers on printers is not that hard.
Sie ist tunbar!
For some reason I doubt that your average counterfeiter will use a color laserjet they picked up from Best Buy. The tool of choice for this activity is the offset printing press.
Just this sort of evidence was famously used to convict Alger Hiss of perjury, in connection with his espionage trial, which is very relevant to your last point. While Alger Hiss's actual innocence is somewhat controversial (and maybe unlikely), it is pretty clear that the government fabricated a typewriter to match the type on the documents in question (and went on to introduce the fabricated typewriter as Hiss's during the trial). The mere ability of the government to claim to be able to able to match a document with its source could, perhaps, lend itself to similar abuses in the future.
I've been thinking of some possible countermeasures to protect you in the occasional episode of civil disobedience
1) Insert a random scattering of microdots in the document prior to printing
2) Include a yellow background in the document(doesn't really work for counterfeiting)
3) Overprint the same document using multiple identical printers, rendering the pattern of dots undecipherable
Without knowing the technical details of how the microdots are inserted, I see a potential problem: if the microdots are overlaid on another color, it may not be possible to obscure them because the RIP (Raster Image Processor) may create color separations which do not overlay colors. It's been reported that the encoding happens "just before the laser" which indicates that it is post-RIP processing. In this case, it would certainly be possible to overlay colors, even if the RIP doesn't do it. If, however, the RIP does allow overlays, then it shouldn't be a problem. (I may just have given Big Brother a new idea here. Hope not.)
Option 3 isn't immune to the above either, as layered encoding could be deciphered by sorting the layers.
There must be SOME way to obscure that bomb threat, ransom note, or anonymous source.
Give me my freedom, and I'll take care of my own security, thank you.
Could print drivers be devised to tamper with this? If the little dots are "invisible" to the human eye, I guess it wouldn't hurt to have a printer driver randomly throw these little dots all over the page? I guess it might have to change the color depending on what model of printer is being used. But it sounds like it could be done... or am I missing something?
It's the same point as the FBI in the U.S. being able to review your library records even though they'll probably never need to.
It's even more pointless in this case because all you need to do to defeat this "technology" is buy your printers with cash and not send in the warranty card.
Oh shit! I just gave away the secret. How long until printers are as heavily regulated as guns and you need a background check to buy one?
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
Conked out as in stopped working? Yikes! Our machines will print the black square, call an error and then continue to work fine unless you do another 5 attempts at the EXACT same document...
Yeah, cos a user would NEVER do that.
honestly, you're wise not to say which company you work for. it's really disappointing to hear that printer manufacturers cripple their products in this way. there are surely legitimate artistic and/or administrative uses that would be blocked by the kinds of safeguard you're describing.
And if you contacted Xerox about dropping 300K+ on a DC8000 but told them you didn't want a service contract and that you wanted to pay cash they would laugh at you.
The kinds of printers that you can buy with cash are definetly no where near capable of producing the kind of print quality you would need too fool someone.
Even with the absolute top of the line for colour laser quality (possibly the DC8000 I mentioned above and operate) would never be able to produce a bank note quality print. Even trying would be foolish. Counterfit ID on the other hand would work so long as there is no hologram or foil to worry about.
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 79743
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80055
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80086
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80125
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80157
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80283
- http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=157201&cid=13
1 80529
Play long enough and you, too can win theI think there is a world market for maybe five personal web logs.
OK, so let me be sure I understand this.
You're telling me that your printers always include a dot, printed with yellow toner, visible only with an 8x magnifying glass, in which is encoded enough information for you to identify exactly which printer that you made was responsible for printing that page?
Sorry, but if that's all you've got, I call bullshit. Too much doesn't add up.
Printer manufacturers have high enough resolution to do this, yet only put out 600dpi/1200dpi boxes, where you can easily enough see jaggies with the naked eye?
If the dots are really that small, they could be messed up just by bleed in average quality printer paper.
Alternatively, this isn't a microdot in the classic meaning of the term, but rather the system is supposed to rely on the relative positions of the dots on the page, with dots spaced inches apart? How is that going to help fight conterfeiting? I don't know many bank notes that come in handy US letter or A4 size for counterfeiting convenience.
You say your department has never had to look up a serial number for the authorities, yet strangely according to TFA, the authorities seem to do this all the time with other makers?
Only a tiny number of people in your department know how to do this, it's all so secret that other printer manufacturers cited in TFA wouldn't even comment and you can't tell us how to find the things, yet you're prepared to identify your employer, thus practically waving a flag about who you are and the fact that you're willing to disclose this sort of information?
There's no obligation to register where you buy your printer, nor to notify anyone of selling it on, so there's nothing to connect to the serial number unless someone bothers transferring warranty information (even after the usually pretty naff warranty has expired).
And here's the kicker: governments all over the world use these things. If there were security marks being printed on their documents, they would know about it, not least because they all do it routinely with confidential documents themselves. How am I supposed to believe that government departments are allowed to use these things when anything they print could be traced back to exactly where it comes from by someone who isn't cleared by that government's security people, and works in another country?
Sorry, but this just doesn't ring true. There is absolutely no factual information in either TFA or all your posts to this thread that's good enough to reproduce this effect reliably, and what's more I'm looking at full-page print-outs from two colour printers, following the directions given in TFA, and unable to see anything even remotely resembling what's described.
I'm happy to change my view on this if more information is provided, but I'm very sceptical about this whole story right now.
If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
If you are a suspect in a minor counterfeiting scheme and your house is investigated, bam they have your serial number. Not extremely useful for cracking the initial case but useful none the less.
--
WHO ATE MY BREAKFAST PANTS?
because the systems of government used in the Warsaw Pact countries from 1917-1991 was - to many people, myself included - "evil".
McCarthyism wasn't exactly a walk in the park for a lot of people either.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Imagine being the poor bastard that had the misfortune to have registered his printer for warranty coverage but threw it out or sold it to someone who 'misused' it later on.
What now, we need to put all our electronic devices through a chipper/shredder too?
Sure maybe you wouldn't be charged per se, but I don't find much difference from being 'arrested' and serving a day in jail and being questioned or harrassed (more accurately) for an equivalent amount of time.
If you don't think investigators are brutally relentless...good for you to be so blissfully ignorant and may you never find out the truth. Your life can be trashed without any charges, merely because you were a suspect.
Just another reason why the EFF is right on this one.
Why not just take out the color cartridge and then print anything "subversive" in black and white? Let them try getting yellow ink out of a non-existant cartridge.
---
An interested party does not need a the cooperation of your company to take advantage of the micro-dots.
If I understand correctly, the dots alone are enough to test any document against any printer, or to determine whether two documents share the same source.
Ramming a french boat seems like very peaceful retaliation, considering that the french blew up their flagship in harbour, killing a crewman.
Methinks a bit of perspective is called for.
As for the "boarding" incident, I seem to recall that they clambered on board the ship - it's not like they took over control of the ship at gunpoint. Illegal? Probably. Stupid? Probably. Tresspassing? Yup. Violent? err, no. Sorry.
no taxation without representation!
The next time I send a threatening letter to some government official, I'll be sure to use the printer I bought at CompUSA, which I paid for with a check bearing my name, address and phone number.
And also the printer paper I use will be purchased at Staples, and I'll be sure to request their spam by leaving my name, address and phone number attached to the order.
And, all my ink cartridges used will be purchased online from PrintPal.com, using my ATM/Visa card.
Oh, and I'll make sure my photo gets taken by the security cameras at the exact instant I buy the stuff.
When are cops going to realize that they are only capable of catching morons? Because they are morons.
Of course, they caught me after robbing a bank - but that was because I was a moron at the time...:-) To paraphrase the Hitler Youth member in "Our Man Flint": "I'm a much smarter person NOW!"
Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!