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Do We Really Need Space Weapons?

tcd004 writes "The U.S. military is developing technology to disable, jam, and even destroy enemy satellites. But are space weapons necessary? No, says Michael Krepon, director of the Stimson Center's Space Security Project. He argues that developing space weapons is a surefire way to launch a new space weapon race.

109 of 938 comments (clear)

  1. When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous... by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There will be no need to worry about weapons based in space...someone will just send a ship up and steal the whole satellite.

    --
    The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
  2. A dissent by ar32h · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I disagree.
    Space is essentially worthless until it is militarized.
    Nothing worthwhile is left unguarded.

    A space race would be a good thing, in my opinion, because it focuses the much-maligned military-industrial complex on a worthy goal: human occupancy in space.
    It may be more efficient to send up the sleek craft of the X-Prize and other private ventures, but heavy lift will probably only come with military ventures.
    Getting to space en mass via the military will doubtless cause distress to many who feel that space should be kept pure, untouched by the dirty and unwholesome aspects of human existence.
    Keep in mind that most successful ventures in space (and all the major ones) were driven by a space race with heavy military overtones. Such motivation worked once and will work again.

    1. Re:A dissent by El+Cubano · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Keep in mind that most successful ventures in space (and all the major ones) were driven by a space race with heavy military overtones. Such motivation worked once and will work again.

      Not just that, but it would certainly help breath new life into the NASA. Let's face it, NASA is currently being crushed by its own beauracracy.

      It may not be long range space missions to Mars and such, but it will certainly help move space flight from where it currently is at the edge of the envelope. The same thing happened with aviation in WWI and WWII. The US and other military powers invested hevily in making aircraft more common place and exploring the variety of roles in which they could be employed. This made aviation safer, more commonplace and in general made the public more aware of it. If the same happens to space flight, only good can come of it.

    2. Re:A dissent by CokeBear · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So lets put it out of its misery. Cut all funding from NASA except the bare minimum to continute to gather data from things already launched (and possibly a few relatively low budget projects that are near completion) and pay down the debt for a few years before launching a new and improved NASA in 15-20 years.

      --
      Reality has a liberal bias
    3. Re:A dissent by lawpoop · · Score: 2, Funny
      "Nothing worthwhile is left unguarded."

      So the US/Canadian border is worthless?

      --
      Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.
      -- Pablo Picasso
    4. Re:A dissent by lucabrasi999 · · Score: 2, Informative
      Keep in mind that most successful ventures in space (and all the major ones) were driven by a space race with heavy military overtones. Such motivation worked once and will work again.

      Oh, the peacenik in me hates to agree with this kind of thinking, but I must agree.

      Don't forget that many military ventures on earth resulted in significant scientific advances. For example, World War II gave us Penecillin (spelling?); the jet engine; and without the funding for the Manhattan project, it may have taken many additional years before nuclear power was properly harnessed.

    5. Re:A dissent by Total_Wimp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      First off, parent and grandparent are wrong. Neither the military, nor government agencies have been able to make major infrastructural changes in our country. It's always been industry. Don't get me wrong, the military and the government have, on occasion, done a great deal to get things started (think darpanet), but it's always been the free enterprise system that's balooned those things to global significance (think cisco and intel).

      On the other hand, the article was wrong too. According to the article: "But once we go down this road, there are no guarantees that other countries will play by our rules. Hey, guess what? There's no guarentee they'll play by our rules even if we don't go down this path. If I were china and I didnt want the US to use some of it's coolest weapons, I'd take out GPS. I wouldn't even have to try very hard as the US has shown me just how to do it back in 1985 with fighter jet launched anti-satallite missles.

      But finally, the premise is wrong. Why would the US launch critical military infrastructure (the GPS) without protecting it? When have we ever done anything like that? The US had squadrons of stealth fighters before we ever admited to having them. We're obviously capable of building very large, very expensive infrastructure clandestinely and then denying that it exists. I don't know for a fact that we already have space-based weapons, but when you add it up, it makes a hell of a lot of sense that it's already a done deal.

      TW

    6. Re:A dissent by justanyone · · Score: 4, Insightful


      I remember reading this horrible idea when I was growing up, that during times of war, people have to get inventive to survive, and this inventiveness translates into technology that has civilian applications after the war. This sounds plausible but ignores the huge economic forces that shift during wartime, as well as the PAIN and DEATH of innocent adults and CHILDREN that war brings.

      Be aware that pre-1930, the US government was very, very small. The depression and world war II changed that by decoupling the gold standard, vastly changing dynamics of monetary policy, credit creation, and other factors that combined to stimulate massive economic and thus technological growth at the time (DESPITE the war's wasting of the fruits of this growth).

      However, the growth didn't come from the war. In fact, GDP can easily be shown to decline when population decreases (look at malaria- and AIDS-torn Africa). Perhaps the redistribution of wealth in war can in some small circumstances be good (where oligarchs are preventing growth) but this is a stretch. MOSTLY:
      * War is very destructive of capital goods and prevents spending newer, more productive capital goods;
      * War production is WASTED from an economic perspective (tanks are not useful for plowing fields for farming, for instance, and produce further economic good);
      * War consumes vast amounts of resources that could be used for productive ends like technological development.

      The thought that war is good because it stimulates development is just not true. War redirects some funds towards development in novel areas, but wastes vast amounts of money/capital elsewhere. If you want tech development, fund it. Don't confuse the US's conversion from an agrarian economy to industrial giant at the time of a war with the war causing the shift.

      This isn't to say that war isn't occassionally necesary to right a wrong. In my view, a large-scale fight can sometimes save lives by halting a low-scale conflict that would have continued for many years. But, technological advancement or economic growth should never be used as justification for actual warmaking because these arguments are specious and come from a small view of the overall economic effects.

    7. Re:A dissent by ArbitraryConstant · · Score: 4, Insightful

      NASA's budget is $16.5 billion. The US deficit is $318 billion.

      How will cutting NASA funding pay down the debt?

      --
      I rarely criticize things I don't care about.
    8. Re:A dissent by cens0r · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Neither the military, nor government agencies have been able to make major infrastructural changes in our country.

      The interstate highway system?

      --
      Jack Valenti and Orrin Hatch will be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
    9. Re:A dissent by Total_Wimp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ok, ya got me. Teaches me to make blanket statements. I'm thinking now of other examples as well, but they all come with a very significant private component. Even the presense of private road crews working in a competitive environment is neccessary to keep our current roads in good running order.

      TW

    10. Re:A dissent by kartan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      OTOH, the US spends something like $500B/year on defense. Maybe some cuts could be made in that department?

    11. Re:A dissent by demachina · · Score: 3, Insightful

      $10 billion here, $10 billion there, before you know it you are talking about some real money.

      I'll grant you NASA is pretty inconsequential in the larger scheme of things, but the manned space program has just become so damn good at spending money and having nothing to show for it, that they are like shooting fish in a barrel.

      Reality is when the Republicans are in charge they squander lots of the money on military/intelligence spending and subsidies for big corporations who don't need them. When the Democrats are in charge they squander it on social programs and subsidies for big corporations who don't need them.

      Neither party can seem to resist the temptation to dish out large helpings of pork that accomplish very little of real value which would be the first obvious place to start reining in spending. Until there is a third party that is fiscally responsible, and has a chance of winning politicians know they can waste money and get away with it as long as they both do it. They can get away with it that is, until the U.S. debt burden leads to an economic calamity, but at that point its to late.

      --
      @de_machina
    12. Re:A dissent by Pxtl · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Here's the thing - you don't get them. Do you think that peasantry and labourers get any of the tribute in Roman or British empires? Government takes care of the peasantry, but it works for the industrialists. Their tribute of Iraq's oil fields is on it's way. Not to mention access to Afghanistan for a pipeline.

  3. To put it in scientific terms... by Willeh · · Score: 2, Insightful
    We're boned. This kind of stuff scares the hell out of me. Having weapons that can disable other satellites is one thing. The next thing you know, laserbeams from outer space could fry anyone anywhere. And who is gonna handle it? The most violent nation in the world. This is not a dig on the american gung-ho way that seems the norm these days, i'm just putting in the perspective of a foreigner. And like the cruise missiles, they're gonna pull the "It's for our defense, national security, blabla" card to put them up there.

    I think it's up to the US taxpayer to put a stop to this insanity. I have a feeling that the US is gonna laugh at the Chinese & Russian efforts to legislate this, possibly causing a cold war in space. Hell, the Cuban missile crisis is nothing compared to some serious strike capabilities in space with a far greater range than some archaic missiles on a carribean island.

    Besides, who appointed the USA to be the supreme ruler of space? Surely disabling a satellite orbiting some other nation's (high) air space could be construed as an act of war similar to say, spyplanes in a foreign country's airspace?

    --
    Will wank off Linus Torvalds for fame.
    1. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by It+doesn't+come+easy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The most violent nation in the world.

      Bit of a stretch, isn't it? The US may be the most powerful country on the planet, and it may be to most arrogant country on the planet, and it may even be the most bullyish country on the planet, but it is hardly the most violent.

      --
      The NSA: The only part of the US government that actually listens.
    2. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by murphyslawyer · · Score: 3, Funny
      The next thing you know, laserbeams from outer space could fry anyone anywhere.
      Naw, that's not really an issue, 'cause if the military DOES try anything a team of wacky kids from Cal Tech will put a stop to it.
      --
      I ain't evil, I'm just good looking.
    3. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by ValuJet · · Score: 2, Funny
      laserbeams from outer space could fry anyone anywhere

      It could be worse, sharks could be able to survive in the vacuum of space aswell. Then we'd be really boned.

    4. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by Loco3KGT · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I think it's up to the US taxpayer to put a stop to this insanity.

      Gotta be honest, as a U.S. tax payer I this. The ability to take out other satellites helps us in the event of a major military conflicts with other technologically advanced nations. Since I personally feel that a hostile take over of Taiwan by China is inevitable, I look at this as something that could help us to protect Taiwan. No one ever thinks a strong military is worth keeping around until they're on the receiving end of an invasion. Then everyone stands around wondering why their military didn't do anything to prevent it. There's a lot to be said for having a military powerful enough to deter attack.

      Hell, the Cuban missile crisis is nothing compared to some serious strike capabilities in space with a far greater range than some archaic missiles on a carribean island.

      Maybe someone else on here can contribute more but the last I checked missile range is not a big issue anymore, atleast not for Russia or the United States. What this adds is another area of launching attacks from. Hell, it might even add another dimension to efficiency. wouldn't take much for something falling from that height to reach a pretty extreme speed I'd imagine. Besides, who appointed the USA to be the supreme ruler of space?

      Beg your pardon but who said we were? Creating defenses for investments in space and our nation is entirely different from us stating "We own space, piss off." I mean, last I checked we didn't declare ownership of the moon even though we planted our flag on it.

      Surely disabling a satellite orbiting some other nation's (high) air space could be construed as an act of war similar to say, spyplanes in a foreign country's airspace?

      How many nations put satellites in space in geosynchronous orbit perfectly above their land? That's a serious question that I don't know the answer to, I'm hoping someone else does. And at what point do you think it's fair to say airspace ends?

      And I think "Most violent nation in the world" might be bit of an extreme statement. We might be the only nation currently involved in conflicts in two separate countries but it's not exactly like we showed up to fill a bloodlust. Hell, how many conflicts has Europe started by in other country's affairs that it refuses to fix *cough*Africa*cough*.

      --
      Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
    5. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by AviLazar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Last I heard, this nation has been "gung-ho" since oh, since the Declaration of Independence. Actually, come to think about it, before that - while we were still British property. And even the Brits were gung-ho, and before them so were the Romans, and every other major society in our history.

      Let's face it - fighting is human nature and it gets things done. It may be ugly, but people won't move until someone moves them. For instance, my neighbor has a tree that drops berries on my porch and my other neighbors porch (brand new). These berries are staining our porches, attracting bugs, etc. I asked him to remove it and he refused saying that it is *MY* responsibility. Now I have to go hire a lawyer. Now the reason this guy will listen to the lawyer, is because he will have to spend money in court and if he goes to court he will lose. If he does not pay then, he will have to deal with the police.

      To link it to places like Iraq: Unfortunately, you could throw all the lawyers that you want at people like Saddam and it wouldn't matter. They would laugh at you, so then you resort to our police force (read: military).

      The US is not appointed as ruler (self or otherwise), but that does not mean the US is not allowed to put up equipment to disable others in the case of war. Lets face it, unchecked (hell even checked) countries will create weapons and some of these countries are a bit too trigger happy. At least we are trigger happy when we feel threatened (and yes we did feel threatened) - but some countries will blow you up because you are an "American Infidel"

      --

      I mod down so you can mod up. Your welcome.
    6. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by stinerman · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let's take a poll. All those in favor of USSR dominating the world raise their hands...thought so.

      Interesting straw man, but it doesn't answer the original question, namely, "is the US the most violent nation in the world?" There needn't be an either/or choice among the US/USSR. It is very possible that a world system could have many strong powers, but none overpowering any of the others.

      Depending on how you define violence, it very well may be. Some of the countries in central Africa are giving us a run for our money, but I'd think that over the past few centuries, we take the cake in total combat deaths inflicted. Wether or not you agree with the aims of the missions is another question altogether, but on straight violence, I'd have to agree with our good friend Willem (768540).

    7. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by tnk1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Depending on how you define violence, it very well may be. Some of the countries in central Africa are giving us a run for our money, but I'd think that over the past few centuries, we take the cake in total combat deaths inflicted. Wether or not you agree with the aims of the missions is another question altogether, but on straight violence, I'd have to agree with our good friend Willem (768540).

      Let's be careful here. If you want to define "violent" as the number of casualties inflicted or force brought to bear, you're going to have to sync that with Willeh's general statement of unhappiness with "the most violent" nation controlling space based weaponry. He's making "violent" equivalent to "dangerous, and very willing to use power in a way to suit it's own aims" while you are simply pointing out body count without discussing reasons behind it.

      In other words, if a gang beats on my friends, ignoring all requests to stop until I am forced to end the fight by very squarely knocking the offenders on their asses (because I am very large and can do that), then by your generalized criteria, I am the most violent, because I created the most casualties in the fight to end it. Even though I had nothing to do with the cause of the fight and tried other methods to stop the fight, I must be the most violent. If "violence" simply equates to the raw number of black eyes, then okay. But "violent" has a connotation that implies that the generator of the casualties is dangerous and unstable, so to be fair, you must include intentions in the discussion.

      This is the big issue with people cutting on the US for being "most violent" The US has the most "military power" and has used it on occasion. However, power itself is a neutral concept. It can be used for a variety of moral and ethical justifications, some good and some really bad. Or it may not be used at all. As for "most violence", I think we're also blinding ourselves to history here. Most violent covers what time period? Last 100 years? I'd think Germany, Japan, and Russia beat us out there. Remember those little things called World Wars that the US managed to get into late, each time? Last 200? Last 3,000? Because in any one period, there are a lot of places that would win that hands down that are not the US.

      The question is really is, is the US most likely to use space-based weaponry unethically? Well, look at the nuclear weapons that we have had for well over 60 years. We've used them twice, both to end a long war of aggression, and then we've built tens of thousands more and done nothing with them, even when we could have nuked the Soviet Union before the Russians got them in the early 1950s. Just because we *have* powerful weaponry that no one else has, does not mean that we will necessarily use it, even when we hate the enemy like we hated the "Commies". You may not like that it was used on the Japanese, but you can't dismiss that it was used in a situation vastly different than anything we face today. That demonstrates that there are some rules involved that don't mean the US holding the world for ransom just because we can.

      Don't allow the Iraq war to blind you to larger considerations. The US has spaced based assets that need protection. Having defenses for them is a legitimate goal. And, honestly, any country with a significant space based program is going to want to do the same thing. I mean, if North Korea can build a nuclear bomb, it can certainly figure out how to target a satellite eventually. That doesn't even require uranium, just some metal, rocket fuel and precision electronics. Forget China and consider the threat from smaller rogue states against satellites. And someday, even non-governmental bodies will have access to space. When do we start realizing that eventually someone is going to have the power to cause unanswered havoc in space completely out of sync with their real support base because we simply couldn't bring ourselves to put into place basic protections?

    8. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by Thaelon · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Boy have you been taking all the propaganda to heart!

      Go watch Fahrenheit 911.

      Funny how no one ever asks why the terrorists knocked down the WTC. I read somewhere it was because of our meddling in their affairs. (sorry I can't cite, don't recall) Of course I don't think blowing up the towers was the answer, but did it ever cross your mind that if we just stayed out of their business they'd stop blowing our shit up? They can't kill more of our troops if our troops aren't on that side of the globe either! The events on 911 were in reaction to US foreign policy. You'll never see CNN/Fox say WHY the attack took place, just how horrible it was and how bad the terrorists are.

      Don't take my word for it, do your own research.

      --

      Question everything

    9. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by budgenator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Laserbeams, smaserbeams, Don't worry about laserbeams, they just will not do the job. Get your biggest fancy-smancy laserbeam, and shoot my house, from space, your luckey to melt a little bit of tar on my roof you putz. The thing to worry about is big rocks, Holey-moley, somebody drops a 250 Kg iron-nickel rock on the house from orbit now we gotta problem. Hits the ground pretty hard, looks like a 15Kt nuke. Put it in a high-elipticle orbit, give it a little nudge at the right time and down it comes, almost striaght down on top of you at over 17,000 MPH, can't see, can't stop, house gone, city gone. Thing leave no radiation, no finger-prints and looks just like any other 250Kg asteroid in a NEO!

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    10. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by flooey · · Score: 2, Informative

      How many nations put satellites in space in geosynchronous orbit perfectly above their land? That's a serious question that I don't know the answer to, I'm hoping someone else does.

      Nobody that I know of. Satellites are only geostationary on the equator, geosynchronous satellites elsewhere "move" north-south, and I don't believe Brazil or Indonesia are operating any such satellites (but I could be wrong).

      And at what point do you think it's fair to say airspace ends?

      By treaty, outer space is currently not allowed to be owned by any nation, and the international boundary of space is generally recognized as 100 km.

    11. Re:To put it in scientific terms... by Citizen+of+Earth · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Depending on how you define violence, it very well may be. Some of the countries in central Africa are giving us a run for our money, but I'd think that over the past few centuries, we take the cake in total combat deaths inflicted.

      So I take it that the commies in the USSR, China, Vietnam, etc. starving tens of millions of thier own citizens to death doesn't count as 'violence'?

      In addition to 'powerfulness', I think you really need to consider the type of government a country actually has. I personally would rather be a citizen of a first-world democracy than a third-world genocidal dictatorship, but then I suppose that most people prone to histrionics see the two forms of government as being morally indistinguishable, or else see democracy as being morally inferior.

  4. "that's no moon..." by SomeGuyFromCA · · Score: 3, Insightful

    except that someone eventually will develop space weapons - it would be the height of arrogance to assume that just because the u.s. backs off, everyone will - and we really don't want to get a late start in that race.

    --
    if the answer isn't violence, neither is your silence / freedom of expression doesn't make it alright
    1. Re:"that's no moon..." by Dan+Ost · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The existence of a weapon means the possibility of being killed by the weapon, regardless of all other considerations. The first person to make the weapon is responsible for any death ever caused by the escalation thereof. There is zero excuse.

      So the first guy to hit another guy with a stick is to blame for all the
      bludgeoning deaths in the last 10,000 years? That's one of the most ridiculous
      arguments I've ever heard.

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
  5. From the article... by tcopeland · · Score: 5, Insightful

    No satellite has been the subject of a direct physical attack in the history of warfare.
    Well, sure, but that seems a bit disingenuous... it's like saying that there were zero shuttle accidents between 1000 and 1900.
  6. Weapons race loved by big business by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Keep in mind that there are people in the US government who own or consult for or are in some way related to the big business of providing military equiptment to the government. Of course they want this it's great to win a race, but it's even better to sell everyone shoes.

  7. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by Monkey+Angst · · Score: 5, Funny
    There will be no need to worry about weapons based in space...someone will just send a ship up and steal the whole satellite.

    This is why we need the snooping powers provided by the USA-PATRIOT act. All we need do to foil the plots of satellite-stealing villains is track the purchases of large numbers of silver jumpsuits and miniskirts. An ounce of prevention...

    --
    stripShow - Where WordPress meets webcomics
  8. shoot own feet by JanneM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All you need to do is take a look at what country or countries would lose the most if space-based communication and localization functions were lost during a crisis. Actively working to increase the risk of such a scenario is self-defeating and shortsighted (I would like to use the expression "utterly stupid" but people may take offence).

    --
    Trust the Computer. The Computer is your friend.
  9. Promoting space technology by syntaxglitch · · Score: 4, Funny

    Two of the biggest drives behind innovation are:
    1) The military
    2) Sex

    The sooner we get both of those going into space, the sooner we'll get some decent progress in spaceflight technology.

    1. Re:Promoting space technology by TykeClone · · Score: 2, Insightful
      They just haven't found the right outlet for reflecting the glory of God.

      In the middle ages, the Christians built cathedrals that are works of art and Muslims preserved and expanded mathematical knowledge.

      Science and religion are not incompatible - unless one's religion is science.

      --
      A fine is a tax you pay for doing wrong and a tax is a fine you pay for doing all right.
  10. The problem is... by RandoX · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Who is going to keep these weapons safe? These will have to be remotely fired, and with the state of system security these days I don't trust the government to keep their satellite weapons under control.

  11. Game theory on space weapons by Alphathree · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A little bit of game theory shows why developing space weapons makes sense from the point of view of any one country.

    Certainly, a "conspiracy" of ALL countries agreeing NOT to develop space weapons would be in our collective best interests. But no one works in terms of collective best interests unless it also maximizes their own best interests.

    Suppose for a moment that a "conspiracy" (or to make the terminology better for this case, a treaty) existed between all nations that "prevented" the development of space weapons.

    Any one country who secretly deviates from that treaty has a LOT to gain.

    Thus unless the United States can trust other major powers (China, Russia, EU, Japan) NOT to develop space weapons (which it cannot), the best way to leverage its position is to develop its own space weapons first.

  12. Space weapons? We've got better things to do by madro · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Am I totally opposed to space weapons? Well, not really. Krepon's arguments include:
    1) North Korea and Iran don't have space programs. Space weapons would be useful against only Russia and China.
    2) The US is the world's most important rule maker or rule breaker. We should set an example and develop a code of conduct.

    My response to (1) is that militarily, it sucks to get leapfrogged. You don't want to get passed because of complacency. As for (2), bad actors tend not to follow rules anyway, so will the conduct of the US really shape the behavior of the rest of the world? (I would guess that many outside the US would hope not.)

    That said, the opportunity cost for space weapons is *huge*. It feeds into the whole asymmetrical warfare concept -- the US can disable satellites but can't stop an insurgency that everybody saw coming except the secretary of defense.

    Furthermore, even within military spending there are better places to spend the money than space weapon deployment. More unmanned systems, better infantry-level support, or faster mobilization (so that the US doesn't build up a force and then claim it's so expensive to keep them there that we have to start the war *right now* -- there were people who said we couldn't wait through a summer ... about $200 billion ago.)

    But the best place to spend money, in my opinion, is accelerated research that supports reduced reliance on oil. (Yes, I'm a Thomas Friedman fan.) I wouldn't mind a grant or two to a brilliant poli sci researcher who could figure out how to sell the public on a large gas tax. (and mitigate the effects on the poor?) I think most economists would say a gas tax (or more generally, a carbon tax) is the most efficient way to spur adoption of renewable energy sources. Otherwise, you're hoping the government can pick technological winners and losers. (While reps are getting nice contributions from the farm lobby.)

    1. Re:Space weapons? We've got better things to do by amper · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are certainly much better places to spend military money than on space weapons at this point. Personally, I think the area where we need additonal funding most desparately is at the individual soldier and platoon level. We need more soldiers, more and better education for our soldiers, better man-portable equipment, better vehicles, better body armor, better communications, better...well, just about everything at that level. I think the current debacle in Iraq is evidence of this--not to mention that we need better civilian leadership.

      As far as renewable energy is concerned, that's really an area where we need to improve the efficiency of the equipment we're currently using so that the military itself is not so dependent on fossil fuels. HMMWV's and BFV's use a huge amount of fuel to do their job. We need lighter, faster, more efficient vehicles to get our troops where they need to be.

      Military power is maximized by putting the most amount of power in the smallest, most efficient package you can. For this reason, it is likely that we will not find a suitable replacement for fossil fuels in our military vehicles.

      Aah, what the hell do I know, I'm just a systems designer...

  13. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by letxa2000 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "But are space weapons necessary? No, says Michael Krepon, director of the Stimson Center's Space Security Project. He argues that developing space weapons is a surefire way to launch a new space weapon race."

    Irrelevant. Whether or not developing space weapons is a surefire way to launch a new space weapons race does not answer the question as to whether or not space weapons are necessary.

  14. We don't, but the brass do by motorsabbath · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Space weapons have nothing to do with security and everything to do with generating a fresh revenue stream for the military/industrial complex.

    --
    The heat from below can burn your eyes out
  15. Too late. by LWATCDR · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sorry but the old USSR already built and deployed space base weapons. They deployed orbital ASAT systems in the early 70s and even armed one of their manned space stations.
    The idea that space is weapons free is a myth. If you do not think that spy satellites are not weapons you are just nuts.

    --
    See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    1. Re:Too late. by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "If you do not think that spy satellites are not weapons you are just nuts."

      They aren't. Spy satellites are intelligence-gathering devices that allow you to know where to point your weapons. They're no more a weapon themselves than your lungs are a weapon - hey, without lungs you'd have no oxygen to power your muscles to move your finger to press the button that fires the nuke that actually is a weapon...

      Ok, I'm being slightly facetious, but you get the point. You can gather all the information you like up there, but keep weapons here on earth.

      --
      Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
    2. Re:Too late. by idontgno · · Score: 2, Informative
      Please tell me, what aren't weapons? I suppose "My Little Pony" and Care Bears are good hand-to-hand weapons too.

      The weapon isn't in the artifact, but in the use. If I suffocate you with a Care Bear, I suspect the prosecution at my murder trial would hold out the bear (Friend Bear, in this case) as a weapon. And my defense team would make absolutely no headway against such an accusation by saying "That's not a weapon!"

      A telescope becomes a sniper's scope. A steak knife becomes a bayonet. Binoculars, used by an Air Force combat controller, becomes part of an air strike system which puts 500 pound bombs on target. The bomb can't kill as effectively without the airplane, or the pilot's poopey suit, or the mechanic's wrench, or those binoculars.

      Everything's a weapon. Ask the ghost of Abel next time you look at a rock in the garden.

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
  16. Obviously no. by FhnuZoag · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The simplest argument:

    Who are the most plausible opponents in a war in space?

    Note that these countries are almost uniformly our close allies, our essential trading partners, and fellow democracies.

    Do we really want to militarise against our friends, diverting funding from protecting against clear and present and active offensive enemies?

    1. Re:Obviously no. by BillFarber · · Score: 2, Informative
      >> Note that these countries are almost uniformly our close allies, our essential trading partners, and fellow democracies.

      China and Russia may be an essential trading partner (though I suspect we could live without their crap), but they are hardly either of the other two.

  17. Gentlemen... by JohnPerkins · · Score: 4, Funny

    We must develope this basselope-based weapons system. Rumors are that the russians have a basselope of their own. Do you know what that means, boy? A BASSELOPE GAP!!!

  18. Define "need" by mnemonic_ · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Do we need to defend ourselves to the best degree possible in times of war? Certainly, we do.

    Do we need war at all? Certainly, we don't.

    Is war inevitable, space weapons or not? 3,000 years of history says it is.

    Which is more practical, pretending that war won't happen or accepting that it will? With the latter being more realistic, we may then follow through with the most effective defense and proceed with developing space weapons.

    We've always been in some weapons race, though not necessarily at the pace of the Cold War. Space weapons won't initiate any Cold War-esque weapons race as much as any of our other weapons have. They're not holocaust devices like nukes or any NBC weaponry. Without anti-satellite weapons, we're back at traditional warfare. With those weapons, we only take it outside of earth.

    Space weaponry if anything will reduce war to a battle of communications and intelligence, where space coverage matters more than occupying ground. With troops and conventional weapons reduced in importance, satellites will be the main casualties, as long as they directly affect the ground war below.

  19. What about the Cylons by Tom7 · · Score: 2, Funny

    And how are we supposed to ward off a cylon attack without space weapons?

    1. Re:What about the Cylons by pointbeing · · Score: 2, Funny
      And how are we supposed to ward off a cylon attack without space weapons?

      We use the sharks with lasers on their heads, silly. Space weapons are just an expensive substitute for stuff we already have.

      --
      we see things not as as they are, but as we are.
      -- anais nin
  20. Against treaties by ruiner13 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    People seem to forget or ignore the fact that deploying space-based wepondry goes against the ABM (Anti Ballistic Missile) Treaties signed by us and the USSR. Bush has already broken these treaties in testing many of his toys. Does no one care that he has such disregard for them? He has stated that the treaties are too limimting and therefore aren't in the best interest of our country, a fact I wholeheartedly disagree with.

    --

    today is spelling optional day.

    1. Re:Against treaties by BillFarber · · Score: 3, Informative

      The USSR no longer exists, hence the treaty no longer exists. Not to mention the fact that the ABM is ridiculously antiquanted.

    2. Re:Against treaties by Necron69 · · Score: 4, Informative
      Perhaps you seem to forget (or are ignorant of the fact) that the United States formally withdrew from the ABM treaty in 2002. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-ballistic_missil e_treaty> for reference.

      The ABM treaty is no longer in effect and is irrelevant to this discussion. There are no legal obligations preventing the US from deploying space weapons. It is solely a technical and policy and/or moral decision.

      - Necron69

    3. Re:Against treaties by DerekLyons · · Score: 3, Informative
      The USSR no longer exists, hence the treaty no longer exists.
      Incorrect. The Russian Federation/CIS explicitly accepted that it would continue to be bound by the treaties that the USSR had signed. (I.E. SALT, START, the ABM treaty, a whole raft of postal agreements, etc... etc...)
    4. Re:Against treaties by MindStalker · · Score: 2, Funny

      Personally if my neighrbor enforces a ban on comming within 200 feet of his front door (as long as those 200 feet arn't in the road), with his sniper rifle. While the rest of us ban 3feet from our door with our basebat bats. I say more power to em, just give me a warning shot first.. ok.

  21. Other countries gain more by disabling satellites by jurt1235 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Quote from the article:
    MK: Weaponizing space would be very unwise. No satellite has been the subject of a direct physical attack in the history of warfare. Whatever we do sets a precedent that others will follow. We depend so heavily on satellites to protect lives and wage war with a minimum of collateral damage. Attacks on satellites would mean that wars become a whole lot more difficult for our forces in the field and a lot more harmful to noncombatants.

    So in short, you can reduce the efficiency of the US army by taking out their satellites. Since other countries are denied access to space, this would be a good tactic for such a country. They will be more dependent and more trained in a war without satellite information, and will be enabled by such a move to get the upperhand in a conflict.

    I think the US better invest in protecting their own satellites since they are the softpoint.

    PS Disabling satellites by large lasers might work since you could fry just a few components like a photo optic chip, the rest of the satellite is packed in a heat blanket to reflect sunlight and thus a laser will just reflect of that too (at least most of it, rendering it pretty useless, if the atmosphere didn't do that yet)

    --

    My wife's sketchblog Blob[p]: Gastrono-me
  22. Space Race != Promote human occupancy by clevelandguru · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Space weapon race doesn't promote Human Occupancy in space. All they need is something in the space to shoot down or jam other satellites or fighter jets.

  23. ::oveclocked:: Podcast by LostCauz · · Score: 2, Informative

    there is a podcast called overclocked that had an entire podcast on this topic a few weeks ago, it was pretty interesting...worth a listen.

    http://overclocked.libsyn.com/

  24. Weapons don't help secure space by convex_mirror · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If there were weapons systems that had to be placed in space in order to protect space assets than I suppose there might be a good argument for space weapons. However, that is simply not the case. I cannot think of a single potential threat to military or civilian satellites that cannot be countered from the ground more effectively for orders of magnitude less money. Really, the only argument for putting weapons into space is that it seems cool and would be intimidating - I'm tired of our military spending money this way. More accurately, there are a group of people in the present administration who believe that it is important to 'unfetter' the U.S.'s hands from any treaties or taboos in the event that somewhere down the line there will be something useful with this stuff we need to do. This is not wise. The taboo is actually valuable to us, because having explosions go off in space ends up creating debris fields which threaten present assets in space (which could be disastrous in Geosynchronous orbit) - and the U.S. is the country with the most military and civilian assets in space. In short - it costs more to use space weapons, it is less effective, and it removes a taboo which is primarily protecting U.S. space assets. Until those factors change, seems pretty dumb to me.

  25. Yes, let's turn our backs on space weapons. by porkchop_d_clown · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Because we all know how well banning weapons has worked before.

    The first attempt I can remember was when the Pope tried to prohibit crossbows. The most recent is the Japanese ban on firearms - which worked quite well until Admiral Perry showed up.

  26. This guy may just have a point.... by linuxrunner · · Score: 2, Funny

    Follow my logic here:

    Without Space Weapons, there would be no Star Trek
    Without Star Trek, there would be no Captain Kirk
    Without Captain Kirk, there would be no Geeks
    Without Geeks, there would be no Slashdot
    Without Slashdot, I would stop wasting time at work

    So: No Space Weapons = No Geeks = No Slashdot = A Raise in our National GDP

    Therefore: Profit!

    --
    www.slightlycrewed.com - Because aren't we all?
  27. Cold Wars by scovetta · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I have a feeling that the US is gonna laugh at the Chinese & Russian efforts to legislate this, possibly causing a cold war in space.

    "In space, all wars are cold."
          -Michael Scovetta, Slashdot, 8/8/2005.

    --
    Wer mit Ungeheuern kämpft, mag zusehn, dass er nicht dabei zum Ungeheuer wird. --Nietzsche
  28. Haven't you heard? by krell · · Score: 3, Insightful
    'Treaties signed by us and the USSR. Bush has already broken these treaties in testing many of his toys'

    Haven't you heard? There is no USSR.

    'He has stated that the treaties are too limimting and therefore aren't in the best interest of our country, a fact I wholeheartedly disagree with'

    At least you admit it is a fact. Too bad you do not like it. Treaties which ban entirely-defensive efforts are certainly not in our interest.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
    1. Re:Haven't you heard? by whopis · · Score: 4, Informative

      When the US first signed this particularly treaty, a clause was placed there to allow either side to withdraw from it so long as they gave six months notice.

      So, to begin with, the notion that the treaty was broken is false. There was an exit clause placed in the treaty and that clause was properly executed.

      Of course, that doesn't change the fact that we decided to pull out of the treaty. However, in regards to your question of "So why did the US sign them in the first place?" and whether or not such treaties are in our self interest... it appears obvious that the leaders that first signed them thought that it would be likely that either side might in the future decide that the treaty should no longer apply. They put that clause in there after all.

      I'm not trying to debate the point of whether or not it is a good treaty with respect to our self interest. Frankly, I really don't know. Personally I feel that ABMs are only likely to increase the desire of potential enemies to build up the number of weapons they have capable of reaching us. And it is a particularly bad solution when the cost of an ABM weapon is greater than the cost of the BM it is designed to counter. However, this all comes from my rather limited viewpoint.

      But as to the notion of the U.S. breaking the treaty, or whether or not the leaders who signed it thought it was in our best interest to be permanently constrained by such a treaty... it is pretty clear that it was not broken, and the leaders who signed it provided an exit clause.

  29. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by lgw · · Score: 2, Funny

    Plus, as everyone knows, if we don't have space weapons, we can be conquered by aliens who only have a stick with a nail in the end.

    --
    Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
  30. Re:The PNAC's "Rebuilding America's Defenses" by alfredo · · Score: 4, Informative

    spells it out nicely. Members/contributors of the PNAC include Paul Wolfowitz, Jeb Bush, Karl Rove, David Wurmer, and Scooter Libby.

    The above document spells out the blueprint for world dominance, starting with seizing the oil in Iraq. It goes on and pushes for space warfare. Ugly document written by ugly people.

    --
    photosMy Photostream
  31. Talk about short sighted! by BerntB · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Cut all funding from NASA except the bare minimum [and launch] a new and improved NASA in 15-20 years
    You are the kind of guy that would happily eat your seed potatoes if you get a bit hungry in the winter.

    Today, you have to do research or your grand children will be poor farmers. Sure, NASA is FUBAR. Start another agency and give the money to them. If you stop space research for a couple of decades, China will own you.

    Cut something less important. Say, only start serious wars. Sure, a democratic arab country would make the world a better place -- but there has to be a cheaper way!

    --
    Karma: Excellent (My Karma? I wish...:-( )
    1. Re:Talk about short sighted! by Golias · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You are the kind of guy that would happily eat your seed potatoes if you get a bit hungry in the winter.

      Today, you have to do research or your grand children will be poor farmers.


      Personally, I'm not counting on NASA to feed my eventual grand-children. Call me crazy, but I don't expect much more out of them than the occasional pretty picture of Jupiter or something.

      Oh, and here's a news flash kids: Space is already militarized. Those GPS toys you like playing with? Yeah, those satelites are there to guide are tanks and target our bombs. The fact that you can use them to mark nav points at your favorite fishing holes and/or WiFi hotspots is just a bonus.

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    2. Re:Talk about short sighted! by Golias · · Score: 2
      there to guide are tanks

      (sigh) Preview first, then post.

      :s/are/our/
      ZZ

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

    3. Re:Talk about short sighted! by shotfeel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, NASA is FUBAR. Start another agency and give the money to them. If you stop space research for a couple of decades, China will own you.

      Doesn't have to be done by NASA or any new agency. IMO the idea behind NASA was that it was (theoretically) a non-military driven space exploration agency. Give it a military agenda, and the Air Force is ready and willing to take over.

    4. Re:Talk about short sighted! by jusdisgi · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hehe. That's pretty funny...you got modded Troll for pointing out your own typo ;-)

      --
      Given a choice between free speech and free beer, most people will take the beer.
    5. Re:Talk about short sighted! by Golias · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, it was very rude of me...

      --

      Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

  32. I'm gonna subscribe to this guy's newsletter by Henry+V+.009 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    "Weaponizing space would be very unwise. No satellite has been the subject of a direct physical attack in the history of warfare. Whatever we do sets a precedent that others will follow. We depend so heavily on satellites to protect lives and wage war with a minimum of collateral damage. Attacks on satellites would mean that wars become a whole lot more difficult for our forces in the field and a lot more harmful to noncombatants."
    So we can get them to ignore our satelites—the ones that have been absolutely vital to every war the U.S. has fought since 1988—by not weaponizing space? Please, explain more.
    "Rules matter, and we are the world's most important rule maker or rule breaker. One rule that has stood the test of time so far is that you don't attack satellites directly. That's a very important rule to keep if we want to protect our forces in the field. We could develop a code of conduct for responsible space-faring nations."
    Some rules matter. This one doesn't. No nation at war with us is going to ignore our satelites giving us up-to-the-minute battlefield data when it has the option to do something about them instead.
  33. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by Golias · · Score: 5, Funny

    Well, if Michael Krepon, the director of something called the "Space Security Project" for something called the "Stimson Center" says we don't need space-based weapons, that pretty much settles the issue, doesn't it?

    I mean, he's an EXPERT!

    It sounds like he might even be an expert on SCIENCE and stuff!

    What more is there to discuss!?

    --

    Information wants to be anthropomorphized.

  34. Nah, that's what junk is for by 0dugo0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The .mil figured out decades ago how to push enemy sats out of orbit using decomissioned sats that have some thruster fuel left.

  35. Natural progression by kent,+knower+of+all · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Weapons in space is inevitable. Looking at militiary history, it's also logical.

    100 years ago wars were fought as ground wars.

    When planes first appeared in warfare, they were used simply for data gathering -- They would fly over the enemy position and the pilot would report his observations.

    The military soon realized that if they could knock out their enemy's use of aerial surveylance they would realize a huge tactical advantage and Air combat was born.

    The same thing holds true with satellites. The launch of the first communcations / spy satellite ensured that one day someone would develop the ability to neutralize enemy satellites.

    We don't have to like it, but it is inevitable.

  36. If space is the final frontier by m93 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    then we all should know how the concept of frontier explortation has unfolded over history. When the early European explorers found our little rock over here, the first thing they did was check it out. The next thing they did was build a military presence on it. It is only logical to assume that the human exploration of space will follow the same human pattern as before.

  37. Re:Pollution in space? by Jeff+Hornby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The problem isn't littering space which, as you point out, is pretty much a non-issue.

    The problem is poluting low-Earth orbit, a narrow sphere around our planet. Putting even the most malicious space-based weapons somewhere in the vicinity of Alpha Centauri is no big deal. Ading a bunch of items to an already crowded area including the ISS, most shuttle flight paths, communications satellites, etc. would probably not be the best idea.

    --
    Why doesn't Slashdot ever get slashdotted?
  38. Laws of Gravity need not apply by hacker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So we develop space weapons. They develop space weapons. We all develop space weapons. We decide to blow the 1,800 satellites out of the sky in some sort of stellar turf war.

    What nobody has considered, is the gravity of the situation (literally, or lack thereof). Now you have billions of little pieces of satellite material flying around in all directions without any gravity to stop them.

    You think some foam sticking out of the bottom of the shuttle has problems now, try plucking it out of there with billions of pieces of metal, plastic, glass, wire and other satellite debris flying around you in all directions at 16,000 miles per-hour.

    Sure, some of it will orbitally degrade into the atmosphere, but much of it will not, and it will continue to fly in all directions at full-speed, until it either collides with something to slow it down, or it deflects off of something (such as the other billion pieces of debris) to change its path.

    Forget going to the moon, other shuttle launches, Mars missions, all of it. Not without some major retrofit to the hull and other materials used in the manufacturing of them (i.e. adding weight, potentially).

    Yes, lets all just blow ourselves out of the sky too, and keep our upper orbital atmosphere a nice fence of shrapnel traveling at thousands of miles per-hour.

    1. Re:Laws of Gravity need not apply by jmv · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's exactly what I was thinking. Actually, if you go a bit further, you can wonder how many satellites you need to destroy before the debris end up destroying even more satellites create a chain reaction. I'm sure I've seen people research that, but I don't know the result. With the number of satellites up there, I would expect just a few would be enough.

  39. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by absinthminded64 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Maybe they'll have a web-based interface and we can slashdot the satellites/weapons by hosting some dorky 'I built a toaster oven out of legos' pages up there.

    It could prevent a nukelurr tourist attack!

    What if W gets a JS error when he clicks the LAUNCH button?

  40. Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    Seems Dubya's still having a hard time finding those WMDs (the ones where he told the UN tht he knew where they were)

    Perhaps Iraq hid them in space - once we have such a ship that can steal the satellite we'll have proof that the war had some justification.

    1. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by frgough · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And his attempted assassination of a former U.S. president. In an age with more backbone, that alone, would have turned Iraq into a U.S. protectorate.

      --
      You can tell the character of a man by observing those who hate him.
    2. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by Rei · · Score: 4, Informative

      The WMDs, which clearly did exist (we even have records he used them) don't need airholes, and are easier to hide harder to find

      1) Pro-war hawk, Bush appointee, former devout WMD believer, and head of the WMD search David Kay acknowleges that no such weapons existed at the time of the invasion. The search teams are no longer operating.

      2) The inspections teams were on the same track; the IAEA was reportedly close to declaring Iraq nuclear-free, while UNMOVIC was working on verifying chemical weapon destruction quantities based on the amount of residual chemicals in the destruction zones. The residuals were evident, but the quantity of source material was unknown. Both have now stated that they believe, just like Kay, that there were not WMDs in Iraq. In short, every inspection team sent to Iraq has reached that same conclusion.

      3) The highest profile Iraqi defector in history, Hussein Kamel (Saddam's son-in-law), in addition to giving a bunch of humiliating information on Iraq that he later got assassinated for (exposing Iraq's biological warfare program and leading them to the information, pointing out that UNSCOM's head's personal translator was a double agent, etc), informed the teams that Iraq *had* destroyed its chemical and biological agents in order to try and get the embargo lifted and limit inspection team knowlege of how much their scientists knew.

      Saddam's refusal to cooperate with inspections

      The IAEA and UNMOVIC heads themselves described good cooperation from the Iraqi government. Blix - the more harsh of the two organization heads - stated that "Iraq wwas guilty of only small infractions". Most of the Iraqi complaints were of the US spying to gather information for war, which turned out to be true. And lets not forget the peace initiatives.

      active promotion of terrorism

      The closest thing Iraq did to active promotion of terrorism was giving money to the families of Palestinian suicide bombers to compensate for Israel's policy of destroying the families' homes. Of course, Saudi Arabia did the exact same thing. Beyond that, there was very, very little that could be construed as supporting terrorism (a lot of misinformation went around on this subject: read up on Ansar al-Islam (more), Ramzi Yousef (mirror), Abu Nidal, and Salman Pak).

      Now, if you want countries with clear, major ties to funding terrorists, you need to look at Iran and the United States.

      Illegal attacks on peacekeepers

      Oh, this is just rich. The No-Fly Zones were not UN-accepted; the French, Russians, and Chinese considered the joint US-British "No Fly" enforcement to be both illegal and counterproductive violation of Iraq's airspace. Then, before war began, we began bombing essentially at will to try and goad Iraq into attacking the US. The reason we were able to start the war with a ground assault was that our air assault began long before the war started.

      --
      I wish people would stop comparing JÃnsi to God. He's good, but he's no JÃnsi.
    3. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by Rei · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not point of fact - point of falsehoods.

      1) Richard Butler was in charge of UNSCOM in 1998 (before Desert Fox, which you mentioned), not Hans Blix. Blix was later instated as the head of UNMOVIC for the recent inspection regime.

      2) Butler did *not* remove the inspection teams because of "supposed obstinance" - Butler removed his teams (without SC approval) because he was informed by Washington that they would be bombing in twenty-four hours. His cited reason for the withdrawl was the protection of his inspectors.

      --
      I wish people would stop comparing JÃnsi to God. He's good, but he's no JÃnsi.
    4. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The only reason is that they do not have enough shovels and don't have permission to search in Syria. The fact was that these WMD's existed. They were used, and this is documented. There is no documentantion of the destruction (or use) of the remaining stockpiles which had been previously inventoried.

      Besides the wee little fact that all of these WMDs from the time of Iraq-Iran war had shelf life of max 5 years.

      Quoth Scott Ritter:

      I bear personal witness through seven years as a chief weapons inspector in Iraq for the United Nations to both the scope of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs and the effectiveness of the UN weapons inspectors in ultimately eliminating them.

      While we were never able to provide 100 percent certainty regarding the disposition of Iraq's proscribed weaponry, we did ascertain a 90-95 percent level of verified disarmament. This figure takes into account the destruction or dismantling of every major factory associated with prohibited weapons manufacture, all significant items of production equipment, and the majority of the weapons and agent produced by Iraq.

      With the exception of mustard agent, all chemical agent produced by Iraq prior to 1990 would have degraded within five years (the jury is still out regarding Iraq's VX nerve agent program - while inspectors have accounted for the laboratories, production equipment and most of the agent produced from 1990-91, major discrepancies in the Iraqi accounting preclude any final disposition at this time.)

      The same holds true for biological agent, which would have been neutralized through natural processes within three years of manufacture. Effective monitoring inspections, fully implemented from 1994-1998 without any significant obstruction from Iraq, never once detected any evidence of retained proscribed activity or effort by Iraq to reconstitute that capability which had been eliminated through inspections.

      Inspection/patrols to ensure and monitor compliance were part of the cease-fire agreement after the first Gulf War.

      Except that the "no fly zones" were not part of the agreement, only IAEA and UNMOVIC inspections were, under a strict set of rules, in accordance with international law.

      Well, duh! Realize that there is no difference between inspection and spying. Under the cease fire agreements at the end of the first Gulf War, Saddam had no right to complain. There would have been no second "war". if he had bothered to comply.

      There is a massive difference. One is a legal activity under auspicies of UN and the other an attempt to overthrow a government of one country for the personal gain of the spymaster's and installation of "friendly" regime, i.e. "regime change". You can be all pissed about Saddam but unless he was engaged in a direct action against another nation, his removal was a matter for Iraqis to accomplish. What US did was an insult to all Iraqis, all Arabs and all Muslims, a result of "daddy knows best" arrogance combined with ulterior motives. History will judge US very harshly on this one.

      While you attempt to sugar-coat it, you do mention Saddam's terrorist actions to try to exterminate the Jews.

      And here goes the inane crap of "poor innocent Israelis who did nothing ever wrong" and "the evil Palestinians who are born with the desire to push all Jews into the sea" etc. This does not even deserve a reply. Familiarize yourself with words such as "supermacist" and "bigot" and then return to the discussion.

      one of the arguments used in support of Saddam Hussein and his aggression have any validity.

      You should get it into your head that noone is "supporting" Saddam. People are supporting the rule of international law and sovereignty of nations. People are opposing "unilateral", "pre-emptive", "might is right" and "who's gonna stop us!" crap which reaks of 1930s Germany. People are opposing hubris motivated stupididty like "exporting democracy" at a point of a gun to the Middle East while ignoring every last bit of cultural and historical data about the region. That is what is going on. Saddam and his impotent antics are secondary.

    5. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by Rei · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The only reason is that they do not have enough shovels and don't have permission to search in Syria.

      Yeah. Uh huh. The administration who sold the world on WMD doesn't have enough shovels to look for them. Why don't you do yourself a favor and read Kay's testimony yourself? He had all the resources he wanted. He conclusion? We made a big, big mistake on the WMD issue (he still supports the war, though).

      The fact was that these WMD's existed.

      Yes, they did. In 1991.

      They were used

      Yes, they were, in 1982-1987. When we were supporting Iraq against Iran.

      and this is documented.

      Not only is it documented, but the Reagan adminstration blocked a call for ceasing weapons sales to their ally Iraq at the time.

      There is no documentantion of the destruction (or use) of the remaining stockpiles which had been previously inventoried.

      Quite true, but there is ample *evidence* in every line of investigation. There was no documentation that Oswald shot Kennedy, but there's plenty of evidence.

      Inspection/patrols to ensure and monitor compliance were part of the cease-fire agreement after the first Gulf War.

      The heck it did! Quit making stuff up. One thing it did call for, I may note, is a nuclear-free zone in the middle east (*cough* Israel *cough*)

      Iraq had no right to ignore it based on silly "spy!" claims.

      A) The majority of the Security Council was in agreement with them in that the US and British had no right to be there.

      B) The US *was* spying on them, not only through the No-Fly Zones, but through the inspection teams (to the disdain of many of the inspectors, who saw it as sabotaging their work). I already gave a ref - need more?

      Attacks on these peacekeepers were entirely illegal and unprovoked aggression.

      1) Read the bloody resolution
      2) Read France, Russia, and China's comments on the subject (the majority of the SC)
      3) I already gave refs documenting the extreme examples of provocation, including direct, deliberate, admitted attempts to goad Iraq into war.

      To stop these attacks alone, the allies had the right to whomp Saddam's terrorist infrascture as hard as possible.

      The "terrorist" issue was well referenced in the last post (same response to your next snippet, cut out)

      The "attacks" you mention were retaliation for attacks against Americans which had already occured.

      I *seriously* hope you're not one of those delusional "Iraq did Sept. 11th" nuts.

      Blix's own reports detailed large infractions.

      I bloody quoted Blix for you! What more do you need, him to tell you in person? The US media only reported the infractions and played them up. Blix himself stated that they were minor, and all of them were resolved. Now, if you want to talk about major, unresolved infractions in the middle east...

      How many lies must be told to defend Saddam? There is nothing true about this.

      Nothing true about it? He was bloody killed over it. He was the very reason that the Iraqi biological program was exposed. Look, deny reality all you want, but that's your own little fantasy world you'll be living in.

      If they were eager to end the embargo, they would have welcomed inspections.

      In case you forgot history, they *did* welcome inspections.

      Well, duh! Realize that there is no difference between inspection and spying.

      The heck there isn't! One has a goal of finding WMDs; the other had the goal of assassinating Saddam and uncovering his conventional forces and how best to defeat them.

      Under the cease fire agreements at the end of the first Gulf War, Saddam had no right to complain.

      To complain about *spying*? Point to me the "US gets to spy on anything they want in Iraq to pursue the

      --
      I wish people would stop comparing JÃnsi to God. He's good, but he's no JÃnsi.
    6. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Seriously though, I don't think you can claim a moral high ground for defending "cultural and historical" nor even sovereignty of nations against the overthrow of a tyranical govenment that allows things like Saddam's Iraq did. The sad thing is that the UN did not act a long time ago - International law sucks

      One can argue that UN is ineffective or in need of reforms. I am myself of a similar opinion. But the UN's ineffectiveness in many areas stems from the activities of its "security council" members, the US prominently on many occasions.

      Before one nation or a group of nations can claim "high moral ground" high enough to justify a barbarous and last resort thing such as a war, they have to fulfill a lot of requirements, establishing clear concensus amongst nations being one of them. And then there is a long list of ulterior motives and idiotic six-shooter "diplomacy" to get into.

      Lacking both clarity of purpose and concesus, in addition to the complexities of the region, is what should have prevented the US from employing that particular set of measures.

      Look, I dont argue that Saddam should not have been removed, but there were many, many ways for it to be acomplished, most involving supporting an internal Iraqi action, which should all have been explored, as being far less bloody then a full scale war. Then there is the cost-benefit calculation, which a lot of knowledgeable people made before the attack, which now looks utterly miserable.

      Simply put, the attack was unjustified from many angles, international law and common sense being just but a few.

      I see this attitude of yours a lot, whereby one claims that the US should go around removing tyrants because they "harm their own people". I will skip for the moment the question of the previous support for the same tyrants, when it was expedient, and go to this: the US, on its own, lacking a concensus, has no authority to arbitrarily decide which nations are in need of "liberating" and "re-organizing". The fact that the US "intelligence" and its media are so easilly duped should have been a dire warning of a fallacy which such a policy is. Godwin notwithstanding, most Germans in 1939 thought that Poland was the aggressor and that Adolph was fulfilling a long standing German "destiny" to right "wrongs" against Germany and while doing so, he was bestowing the "blessing" of German culture on the hethen Slavs.

      A position which is frighteningly remniscent of what some people here on Slashdot espouse.

    7. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by Rei · · Score: 2, Informative

      I've most definitely read the resolution, and the other Iraq resolutions. The heads of the agency to determine the degree of compliance with the said resolutions (UNSCOM/UNMOVIC and the IAEA) were opposed to us invading when we did, and considered their agencies to be making progress toward verification of disarmament. I've already linked quotes earlier in this thread.

      Don't want to take the word of the organizations tasked to enforce the resolutions? Take the word of the Security Council: 3 of the 5 permanent members of the security council felt the same way.

      Don't like the permanent security council? Even with the enormous financial, political, and military weight of the United States, and using all of the dirty tricks in the book (bugging, bribing, and all of the other scandals that came out), we still couldn't get enough support from the temporary council for a war resolution. And lets not even get into the general assembly - it was obvious how they would have voted. Even more extreme? The world public itself, for which was about 3/4 opposed.

      How about the VX gas used on his own people in Basra

      1) The only documented use of chemical agents in Basra was not VX - it was Mustard Gas and Tabun, in 1987.
      2) The target wasn't his own people, but was Iranian forces.
      3) There are no documented uses of Iraqi VX, although they developed it, and there are some suspected sites
      4) All of this was during the time that the Reagan administration was actively assisting Iraq, and working to shield it from international condemnation for such weapons usage (actually suggesting in many cases that it was *Iran* who was *really* using the chemical agents)

      Perhaps you meant "Halabja", concerning the famous attack on the Kurds. Apart from the fact that it wasn't VX, Halabja was a military stronghold for PUK (the same sort of excuse we had for the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki - military installations, factories, and a demonstration to the local populace), and the Kurds are about as much "Saddam's own people" as the Cherokees were Andrew Jackson's.

      --
      I wish people would stop comparing JÃnsi to God. He's good, but he's no JÃnsi.
    8. Re:Perhaps space is where Iraq keeps the WMDs by coaxial · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They (Saddam's terrorists) already had attacked, and were attacking still. Your claim makes no sense. The "attacks" you mention were retaliation for attacks against Americans which had already occured.

      Prior to the invasion, when did "Saddam's terrorists" attack the US? If you're going to say 9/11, your so dellusional, but it wouldn't be your fault. You would have just been taken by a orchestrated, and immediately discredited, lie.

      How many lies must be told to defend Saddam? There is nothing true about this. Iraq refused to document such destruction of the weapons. They were still blocking inspections up until the US large-scale retaliation. If they were eager to end the embargo, they would have welcomed inspections. [...] There would have been no second "war". if he had bothered to comply.

      The irony of course is that in the end he did in fact comply.

      I attended a forum with UN weapons inspector Scott Ritter. He said that Saddam's regime was a bunch of liars, but even a liar can eventually tell the truth. He told of the story about the search for some sort of proscribed ballistic missles, which he said was typical of his dealings with Iraq.

      The inspectors would first ask the Iraqis to prove they were in compliance. The Iraqis would say they were, and then drive the inspectors out into the desert to show them the destroyed missles. The inspectors would then take an inventory of all the identifyable parts and take notes of the part and serial numbers. These parts would then me matched to specific shipments.

      This investigation would show that these parts came in lots of 100, but there were only enough parts at the site for 10 missles. The Iraqis would then be confronted with this. After some stalling, the Iraqis would eventually state that they "honestly thought" they destroyed all the missles, but were mistaken, but have since destroyed the remaining 90 missles. The inspectors would go out to the desert, examine the remains, and positively 85 missles. There would be a pile of parts that could make 5 missles, but they couldn't be positively identified with any particular missle. He said that if the Iraqis weren't lying so much, the inspectors would have listed these parts as 5 missles, and sign off. But the Iraqis were liars. They lied all the time. Given their track record, they could have been lying then. So the inspectors wouldn't sign off. And so begins one of the many tragedies in the lead up to the invasion. The intellegence services believed that the Iraqis had 5 missles, but they actually didn't, and there was no way the Iraqis to prove otherwise.

      While you attempt to sugar-coat it, you do mention Saddam's terrorist actions to try to exterminate the Jews.

      First, he didn't "try to exterminate the Jews." He was thug, dictator, and a murder, but didn't do that. There's plenty of attrocities to attribute to him, without make some up.

      In keeping with "tell any lie in order to prop up Saddam and make Bush look bad", [...]This is quite typical. None of the arguments used in support of Saddam Hussein and his aggression have any validity.

      Listen jackass. No one supports/supported Saddam Hussein. Many, and now a majority, believe it was the wrong war, at the wrong time, against the wrong people, executed without a plan, and on slim-to-no rationale.

      Try and wrap your mind around this: Someone can say, "That guy is a son-of-a-bitch, but he's not the son-of-a-bitch we're looking for. Remember what you said before? We want to get him! We are at war, but not with guy! You let the most wanted men in the world escape not just once but

  41. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by CrashPoint · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Agreed. Furthemore, his arguments (as presented in the article anyway) only seem to address space-to-space weaponry. His reasoning of "it's only useful against other spacefaring countries, and it makes too much space debris" doesn't apply to space-to-ground weaponry.

  42. Space weapons race unavoidable. by Kodack · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There is really no way to avoid this. We all rely on communications for both public and military needs. The speed and in-accessibility of orbital platforms make surface based defense of orbiting satellites almost impossible. An orbiting weapons platform in space is almost untouchable except to other orbiting weapons. This means that if another nation put a weapon into orbit that could launch on another nation or take out their satellites, that nation would be helpless unless it had it's own orbiting weapon. Imagine the havoc that would be wreaked upon us if we suddenly lost satellite communications. No long distance, no TV, internet would be affected, we would effectively be rendered helpless. People would fall into mass hysteria without communication with the outside world. Think "Trigger effect" but on a national scale. I hate weapons. I hate war. But I have to be realistic about the whole thing. It's going to happen. You can either be prepared for it, or pretend it's not a problem.

  43. The US has the most to lose. by TheLink · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If you get tons of debris 40,000km up, who has the most satellites there to lose?

    You think north korea would care as much? China? India?

    It costs a lot more to defend a satellite against this than to destroy a satellite. It's also not too hard to disguise a killer satellite as a civilian satellite (but this would have to be in a "normal" orbit travelling in the same direction as other satellites- makes it a bit harder to be very damaging).

    I don't see why one should spend so much money on space weapons. A few dozen _cheap_ satellites with explosives and hard to deflect shrapnel (glass?) can make tons of orbits useless. How it could work - someone just has to stop broadcasting the relevant keepalive signals, or broadcast a "trigger" signal and the shrapnel satellites will blow up and wipe various orbits within a day.

    So your mucho expensive space weapons better be parked in different orbits or be capable of moving significantly. And you better be able to decide and use them quickly.

    If stuff happens we'd probably lose use of the prime orbit regions, for quite a long time.

    It's like MAD but in space.

    --
  44. selective quoting leads to inaccurate moderation by sum.zero · · Score: 2, Informative

    way to remove the context from that statement. here it is in full:

    "MK: Weaponizing space would be very unwise. No satellite has been the subject of a direct physical attack in the history of warfare. Whatever we do sets a precedent that others will follow. We depend so heavily on satellites to protect lives and wage war with a minimum of collateral damage. Attacks on satellites would mean that wars become a whole lot more difficult for our forces in the field and a lot more harmful to noncombatants."

    this is a forward looking statement [eg 'sets a precedent'].

    your statement that it is inaccurate because it has not happened in the past is a gross mischaracterization of what is actually being said.

    sum.zero

  45. Well, we already know ... by DoktorTomoe · · Score: 2, Informative

    ... that international law and treaties is of no concern for the United States...

    Outer Space Treaty of 1963

    Yes, I know those "space weapons" will (officially) not be nuclear. Have a look at article 8, however. I doubt the US wants to pay for foreign satellites, development and launch costs.

    Overall, I think if the US would finally stop bullying the rest of this planet around, they would be a lot more liked.

  46. Just a FYI by Valarauk · · Score: 2, Informative
    Just FYI Michael Krepon has a book on this subject out.:

    Space Assurance or Space Dominance? The Case Against Weaponizing Space (Henry L. Stimson Center, 2003).

    Paperback: 133 pages Publisher: The Henry L. Stimson Center (April 1, 2003) ISBN: 0974725528

    --
    **insert favorite profound quotation here**
  47. stupid argument by davidm82 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why only space weapons? You can make the same silly argument about all kinds of weapons. We should not develop new kinds of tanks because that would lead to a weapons race in tanks. We should not develop new kinds of warplanes because that would lead to a weapons race in planes. .... The fact is that if these new weapons will help us in war, then we should build them. If not, then we should not build them. Let's judge the weapons based on their technical merits and not on some fantasy of a NEW weapons race (there always was and always will be a weapons race).

  48. Back then, it looked good compared to others... by krell · · Score: 2, Interesting
    'True. In fact, few people realize that we owe a great deal of modern civilization to the knowledge the Muslims preserved. Kind of makes you wonder what's changed since then that's turned major religion into a force for violence and opposition to progress'

    Perhaps little has changed except that the rest of society has progressed. Enlightened as it was back then, the Muslim empire was savage and brutal by today's standards. Much is made of how well they treated the Jews, but also realize that they made Jews pay a special tax just for being Jewish. They also desecrated and destroyed the vast majority of synagogues in areas they conquered. The area known as Saudi Arabia today once had a large Jewish population. Muhammad ordered these Jews exterminated, and to this day his edict of "no Jews allowed" keeps the peninsula pretty much free of Jews.

    Much of the world looked at horror at happened during the Sudan during the 1990s, as the Muslim north raped and pillaged the Christian south. This is what the Muslim empire led by Muhammad typically did in order to expand. it looks pretty bad now, but was the typical "modus operandi" back then.

    --
    Where were you when the voynix came?
  49. Re:Another idiotarian by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Leaving aside the GP's (apparently) incorrect assessment of the M-I Complex's fortunes...

    "People like you (Liberal Democrats) have made defense contracting a hard place to break even, much less make a profit! I suggest you go learn a little something about a field you obviously do not know a single thing about, other than the name."

    And how is that a bad thing?

    You seem to be implying that it's something they've done wrong, but I can't see a much more progressive step for the world than making it economically unviable to get rich by enabling the deaths or maiming of millions...

    Let's be honest - the US is never (at least, not before the Big Post-Bush Economic Collapse) going to be unable to afford weapons to defend itself.

    Given your country's always going to be safe and well-supplied, what's wrong with making it damn hard for people to acquire wealth and influence by profiting from human misery and suffering?

    Frankly, it'd be a better world if weapons were totally unnecessary, but I'll settle for now for them being merely prohibitively expensive.

    --
    Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
  50. Militirization versus weaponization by ZombieLine · · Score: 2, Informative
    Discover magazine had a much longer article on this a couple months ago, but I can't find it on the web. Here are a few good points that I can remember.

    Space has been militarized, but not weaponized, that is to say the military is using space, but there are no weapons in space. This is somewhat analogous to the internet - in that the military uses the internet, but there are no known military weapons for use on the internet that aren't available to the public. To respond to a previous poster's comment on spy satelites as weapons, I've used google maps, and I wasn't able to blow anything up.

    That being said, space weapons that actually attack targets on the ground are highly unlikely. Space based lasers would have problems with - cloud cover, large amount of fuel required (600 lbs if I remember correctly) and easy defence (a large pool of water over the building, thick ceilings). Kinetic weapons working on the principle of Force = Mass * Acceleration, instead of explosive power aren't that much more effective than conventional weapons. Add to all that the cost of defending these specialized weapons leads another arms race, that thankfully no country really wants to run.

    As implied in the article satelites are the real vulnerability, because they provide such essential communications technology. However, the threats aren't there yet. So, nothing against the Air Force, but they need to be focused on the real issues and threats of today, not Buck Rogers time.

  51. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by Martin+Blank · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It does when ASAT weapons come into play. As the need to defend oneself from satellite-borne weapons increases, the likelihood of developing a weapon capable of taking them down also increases. ASATs are difficult to do, but not impossible, and the nations most likely to need defense against satellite-borne weapons are the ones that already have (US, Russia) or could develop (UK, France, India, Pakistan, Iran, Japan, North Korea) ASAT missiles.

    --
    You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
  52. Re:North Korean or Chinese .. by micromuncher · · Score: 2, Funny

    North Korea doesn't have the economics or science to be involved in a space race.

    Sure, the Chinese have space ambitions, but they suffer from the same economic and technological hurdles... they want to put a man on the moon to stir national pride. Why the hell would they want to spend billions in Star Wars when they already have numerical superiority? In a conventional ground war, hi-tech technology is not decided advantage.

    I like your McCarthyism though - keeps Boeing going.

    --
    /\/\icro/\/\uncher
  53. Re:Blah Blah blah PATRIOT ACT Blah Blah PATRIOT AC by Dobeln · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "There's a book out there called "Don't Think of an Elephant" that describes the current Replication tactic of "framing" issues."

    Yea, Lakoff sure has figured out the trick of those wily Republicans. Perhaps the Democrats could do this too? The abortion thingie could be called "Pro-Choice" - after all, who can oppose "choice"?

    Higher taxes? Let's call that "social justice". Justice is good, no? Fancy writing law from the bench? Meet the "living, breathing constitution"...

  54. Re:When space access becomes cheap and ubiquitous. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not to worry. Someone will detonate a cargo of a 10 million ball-bearings, imprisoning us on the planet a couple of thousand years.

    Seriously .. if we unilaterally start to weaponize space, any nation or group with a ballistic missle can (and one probably will) do this. We would be denied space, for pretty much any purpose, virtually over-night. It's a shame our illustrious leader isn't smart enough to figure this before he starts wasting our money and squandering our opportunity to keep space a common resource.

  55. Re:Who benefits from $63/barrel oil? by spun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Thank you! It amazes me how often I point that out. A belief that everything done by our government is done for our benefit is part of a certain mindset. People really believe we are the best, most righteous nation on earth, that everything we do is good and just, that our Republican leaders are all good and just and righteous God fearing Christians with the country's best interest at heart.

    To question any part of this belief system induces a state of acute anxiety in these people. They have based their whole ego structure around a belief that they are good people who are part of a good country. To call that into question is to call their very concept of self into question. This explains the ferocity with which they defend their beliefs, and the difficulty in comprehending something even so simple as the idea that our leaders may be acting selfishly in regard to oil.

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  56. Re:Why bother? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You call someone a troll and an anti semite. I say that when you act a certain way, you look like an idiot. You are quiet obviously engaged in name calling, while I am trying to provide constructive criticism. You like most people probably don't want to look stupid in front of large numbers of people, and like most people are probably unaware when you do. I'm merely trying to help, so that in the future you can come across as intelligent rather than a dundering chowderhead, which is how you come across now. No insult intended. I'm not saying you ARE a blithering idiot, merely how you LOOK to others. I will even provide some tips on how you can appear less like someone of impaired intelligence. Provide sources and actual quotes to back up your suppositions. This lets people corroborate your facts and see that you are telling the truth, not just spouting made up bullshit.

    Hope that helps!

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  57. You confuse what was known then with now ... by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 3, Informative

    1) Pro-war hawk, Bush appointee, former devout WMD believer, and head of the WMD search David Kay acknowleges that no such weapons existed at the time of the invasion. The search teams are no longer operating.

    You confuse what was known at the time the decision was made with what was know a year or more after the decision. That is quite revisionist. In truth numerous intelligence agencies were saying Sadaam still had WMD, some of these agencies belonged to very anti-war governments, Germany for example. Believing that Sadaam had WMD was a quite reasonable and prudent thing to believe.

    The IAEA and UNMOVIC heads themselves described good cooperation from the Iraqi government.

    Excuse me, at one point the U.N. teams left because they were not permitted to do their job. You are referring to an exceptionally narrow timeframe and missing the big picture that Iraq sometimes cooperated and sometimes did not. The prudent interpretation would be that they interfere when the UN is on to something and they cooperate when the UN is on a dead end. You mentioned that Sadaam destroyed stockpiles. Why did he not do so under UN supervision? Clearly he wanted people to believe he still had WMD. He assumed it would enhance his ability to "negotiate" and provide a deterrent. Given the UN's spotty record, being suprised by his nuclear program and later his bio program, it was prudent to believe be a bit cautious with preliminary and politicised UN reports.

    In general you confuse to separate issues: "Does Sadaam still have WMD?" and "Is an attack on the west imminent?". The WMD question has not been discussed rationally in a while, it had become a political wedge issue wield for political gain. Sometimes wielded by those who agreed Sadaam had WMD at the time, just like Bush, and some who even voted for force at the time. If you fail to consider the politics you will never truly understand events and will be easily manipulated. The left is as guilty as the right.

    1. Re:You confuse what was known then with now ... by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You confuse what was known at the time the decision was made with what was known a year or more after the decision

      I do no such thing - please cite where I do that (your quote, about David Kay, has nothing to do with what was known beforehand. David Kay was, and still is, a pro-war hawk; he was, but is anything but now, a believer in present-day Iraqi WMDs)

      In truth numerous intelligence agencies were saying

      The intelligence agencies of our pro-war allies? Obviously - in fact, many of them got their intelligence from us and the British. The rest of the world was strongly disagreeing (you wouldn't have known by reading only the US press, of course). Many of our claims were an ongoing source of morbid humor in the European press due to how obviously trumped up they were - the "Uranium from Nigeria" claim, the "Aluminum tubes for centrifuges claim", etc. Even a rudimentary knowlege of the subject made it blatantly obvious that these things were fictional (I can go into details if you would like). Comes out after the war, that our intelligence agencies thought they were garbage, too, and yet the White House kept repeating this trash. And our biggest source of information? Chalabi and Pals - the Iraqi National Congress, headed by a multi-count felon embezzler who used the invasion to secure himself and his allies major government positions.

      It's not like nobody was saying this was going to happen before the war. Of course, again, reading the American press, you'd hardly know that.

      Excuse me, at one point the U.N. teams left because they were not permitted to do their job.

      False. You refer to 1998, right before Desert Fox. Butler himself has stated that he removed the inspectors for their own safety 24 hours before the US bombed the country (link provided earlier in this thread).

      You mentioned that Saddam destroyed stockpiles. Why did he not do so under UN supervision?

      According to Kamel, at least, Saddam wanted to retain his knowlege base, not let the world know how far they had gotten, and wanted to leave his neighbors guessing.

      As time progressed and the inspections became more and more stringent, they reluctantly found themselves having to give up on keeping how much they new and had from the inspectors; of course, it was too late by then. The first teams of inspectors in Iraq found strong resistance to their tasks. The reported resistance steadily declined with each successive inspection regime, to where after the last round, Blix reported only minor infractions, mostly related to Iraqi concerns about US spying to get targeting for the war. It's rather telling how far Iraq came, from complete obstructionism to destroying their best missiles due to a technicality (they were only overranged without a warhead and guidance system - some were even destroyed the day before the ground assault) while an invading army sits right next door preparing an invasion.

      The WMD question has not been discussed rationally in a while

      Perchance, since Bush's hand-picked inspector concluded that, and I quote, "We got it very, very wrong"?

      --
      I wish people would stop comparing JÃnsi to God. He's good, but he's no JÃnsi.
    2. Re:You confuse what was known then with now ... by AHumbleOpinion · · Score: 2, Informative

      "In truth numerous intelligence agencies were saying"

      The intelligence agencies of our pro-war allies?


      What a creative job of editing you have there. I actually wrote: "In truth numerous intelligence agencies were saying Sadaam still had WMD, some of these agencies belonged to very anti-war governments, Germany for example." I originally gave you the benefit of the doubt that you may have simply had a shallow understanding of events but now I am beginning to suspect that you simply have a political agenda. There are honorable and intelligent anti-war arguments, "we did not find WMD" is not one of them. That is armchair quarterbacking. A more intelligent argument would be one involving "imminent threat" not "WMD existence".

      "The WMD question has not been discussed rationally in a while"

      Perchance, since Bush's hand-picked inspector concluded that, and I quote, "We got it very, very wrong"?"


      After one year of unfettered access and crawling all over the place. If Sadaam had permitted such access in the first place, or something close to it, there would have been no war. Again, your argument fails because at the time of the invasion it was prudent and reasonable to believe that Sadaam may still have WMD, as anti-war nations such as Germany, Russia, and Jordam honestly believed. The argument at the time was really how much more time would the UN inspectors need to find out one way or the other, and whether the UN was able to do so at all.

  58. Assumptions by TiggertheMad · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The prudent interpretation would be that they interfere when the UN is on to something and they cooperate when the UN is on a dead end.

    Consider this: You are Sadaam, and you wish to deter a hostile superpower from removing you from power. Given that building WMD could be costly in terms of money, resources, and international goodwill, wouldn't it be better to make people wonder if you have them? If you build them, it might give the west a reason to invade, since you are then a threat to them. If you don't have them, the west might invade since there isn't any deterent. The best plan is to prevent any resolution of the question either way. FUD isn't just a weapon for mega-corps.

    An alternate interpretation would be that they interfere when the UN is on a dead end to create disinformation. You don't stay a dictator for long by being stupid...

    --

    HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!