DirectNIC Crisis Manager Braves the Chaos of New Orleans

All I gotta say is... by Incongruity · 2005-09-01 14:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

These guys set the bar for uptime and connectivity... I've been continually impressed. Bravo!

Re:All I gotta say is... by LinuxInDallas · 2005-09-01 15:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

I hate to acknowledge such a post but unfortunately after viewing countless news stories and reading many an online article I have to agree.

They are now saying there is rampant lawlessness even inside the shelters. Rapes, beatings, etc. Do they think this will help their plight? Reminds me of the same behaviour that occured after the Rodney King inspired riots in the early nineties.
Re:All I gotta say is... by arkanes · 2005-09-01 15:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

Its pretty easy to sit in your nice comfy chair with your internet connection and talk about what animals they must be. Now, I'm not condoning whats going on there, but think about it for a minute. There's no food. There's no water. It's hot. People are literally dying of exposure and dehydration on the sidewalks. There's little or no communication with the outside world. They don't know whats going on, if anyone is coming to help them or not. They don't know if theres other priorities elsewhere, or why the water can't get it, and when you're watching your baby die right in front of you, you probably don't really care. I don't condone any of the violence, and I like to think I'd handle it better, but think a little and show a little compassion before you pass judgement.
Re:All I gotta say is... by alc6379 · 2005-09-01 15:48 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hate to push you off of your high horse, but how exactly are we to show compassion towards someone committing rape?
Looting for food and water, maybe beating somebody up that went wacko all of a sudden (posing a risk for you and the people around), maybe I can see, but what justification can you give for, "Whoops! All hell is breaking loose, water's everywhere, I gots to get my freak on!"

--
I don't moderate anymore. Karma penalty for 90% fair mods? Can I mod that unfair?
Re:All I gotta say is... by arkanes · 2005-09-01 16:01 · Score: 3, Interesting

It's cute how it's so easy to pick out one atrocity and focus on it to the exclusion of all else. Lets say we killed all the rapists in NO right now, this very second. How many do you think there are? Do you think thats the major problem there?
People are going to act badly in those sort of circumstances. Hell, a shitload of people are acting badly in far milder ones - here in Baton Rouge people with food, water, power, and vehicles are beating the shit out of each other over cutting in line for gas. People are so scared of all the brown criminals from NO coming here that the town was practically paralyzed by rumors (non-factual) of rioting and looting at the local mall.
No, NO is not a healthy place to be right now. Poeople aren't at thier best. But honestly, a lot of people here on slashdot wouldn't do any better in the same circumstances. Get them out of there, get some food and water, clothes, basic hygiene in place and you'll see a marked improvment in character and behavior. It sure would be nice if everyone there had come together and supported each other until outside help could come. But human nature has it's dark side and getting on your own high horse about it is just hypocritical.
Re:All I gotta say is... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 16:03 · Score: 2, Interesting

Dude, you've never been through a hurricane before.

These people have had ample warning. They live on a hurricane evacuation route.
They're arrogant enough to "sit this one out like the rest of them" and now they're crying uncle.

When you're raised in a hurricane area, you're indoctrinated EVERYWHERE basic Civil Defense survival especially in the case of a hurricane. That includes stocking at least 2 weeks food.

There was ample preparedness time. Yes our government has failed on this one. First rule is to PREPARE for martial law in the case of looting and civil unrest while relief workers do their job.

I don't know what is happening there right now but I do know that culture and the sense of entitlement the most raucous lot of the roit bunch are and they have proven that then need to be taken out because civil society doesn't want them.

I grew up in a town deeper than New Orleans and I remember boarding up our windows, rasing our furniture, and evacuating EVERY hurricane that came our way before the sea wall was shut.
Re:All I gotta say is... by alc6379 · 2005-09-01 16:28 · Score: 4, Interesting

It's cute how it's so easy to pick out one atrocity and focus on it to the exclusion of all else. Lets say we killed all the rapists in NO right now, this very second. How many do you think there are? Do you think thats the major problem there?
I think there are FAR more major problems than that going on down there. People are dying due to being stuck where they are without neccessities-- that's the major issue. I've not lost perspective on this, please don't think that.
People are going to act badly in those sort of circumstances. Hell, a shitload of people are acting badly in far milder ones - here in Baton Rouge people with food, water, power, and vehicles are beating the shit out of each other over cutting in line for gas. People are so scared of all the brown criminals from NO coming here that the town was practically paralyzed by rumors (non-factual) of rioting and looting at the local mall.
See, and that's fucked up. I can completely agree with you-- people are almost guaranteed to act badly in situations like these. But, I can still recognize that it's not right, no matter what the situation. Sure, there's going to be a great deal of situational morality-- people do what they have to so they can survive. You'll never catch me judging people for breaking through a storefront for essentials when there's a lack of food like there is; however, you will find me angry at people raping one another, or anyone else who takes the opportunity to "get it for themselves", like grabbing a DVD player while in Wal-Mart getting food.
No, NO is not a healthy place to be right now. Poeople aren't at thier best. But honestly, a lot of people here on slashdot wouldn't do any better in the same circumstances. Get them out of there, get some food and water, clothes, basic hygiene in place and you'll see a marked improvment in character and behavior. It sure would be nice if everyone there had come together and supported each other until outside help could come. But human nature has it's dark side and getting on your own high horse about it is just hypocritical.
You didn't make a differentiation in who was covered by your initial statement. I specifically focused on rape because it's not essntial to live. Senseless shit is what I'm incensed about. People are out there-- theft of food, water, etc will undoubtedly be looked over, but there's no excuse for just going ape-shit when a disaster strikes.
It's not hypocritical at all to condemn senseless acts of violence, even in a disaster situation, where it's almost expected that people will go nuts. My main point is that in times like this, it's perfectly OK to still maintain standards of decency, but be able to survive. I don't care what's going on, it's not acceptable to corner someone with a weapon, and force yourself upon them.

--
I don't moderate anymore. Karma penalty for 90% fair mods? Can I mod that unfair?
Re:All I gotta say is... by MillionthMonkey · 2005-09-01 16:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

These people have had ample warning. They live on a hurricane evacuation route. They're arrogant enough to "sit this one out like the rest of them" and now they're crying uncle.

Are you on acid? You expect a major American city to just completely empty out? Even with an organized evacuation it's difficult.

But of course, there was no organized evacuation. No buses, nothing. People were just told to leave on their own. Some people don't own cars. Or gasoline. They live paycheck to paycheck. Lots of these people rely on government checks that arrive on the first of the month. At the end of the month, they're ALWAYS broke. Some people are disabled and in wheelchairs, or care for people in wheelchairs. Are you going to talk trash about the hospital patients wading through the water with backless hospital gowns? Or the woman who stayed to take care of her mother, who was dependent on dialysis? What if, God forbid, Terri Schiavo had been there? Surely you could find some compassion for her.

When you're raised in a hurricane area, you're indoctrinated EVERYWHERE basic Civil Defense survival especially in the case of a hurricane. That includes stocking at least 2 weeks food.

Lot of good that 2 weeks of food does you when you're trapped in your attic and the water's coming in. By then the food's either soaked in crud or floated away.

I don't know what is happening there right now

that much is obvious

but I do know that culture and the sense of entitlement the most raucous lot of the roit bunch are and they have proven that then need to be taken out because civil society doesn't want them.

I love how all the "real" Americans among us are the first to turn on their less fortunate countrymen when a disaster strikes.
Re:All I gotta say is... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 16:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

Dude, you've never been destitute before.
These people are, for the most part, poor folks who had no means to escape town last Sunday when the warning went out. No car. No money to put themselves up in a motel outside of town. The rich white people got the hell out, leaving the poor behind to drown.
Look at the news reports. Most of the faces are black and poor. Instead of being able to escape this shitstorm, they had to resort to being crammed into the Superdome, enduring overflowing stinking toilets, stifling heat, and the goddamn roof ripping off during one of the worst hurricanes this country has ever seen. These people are tired, scared, recently homeless, and very desperate. I'm sure they'd rather be anyplace but the festering bowl of sewage that New Orleans has become in the last couple of days.
Don't you dare make the inference that all 50,000+ of these people are merely stubborn stalwarts or hooligans bent on raising a ruckus now that the rule of law has broken down. While I condemn the reported rapes and other assorted outbreaks of lawlessness (reports of which I'm sure are being overhyped as usual by a racist mainstream media), most of these people are just desperately poor people who are scared at the prospect of what will happen to them in the next 24-48 hours. Put your critical thinking cap on, buddy, it's not like everyone there has turned into a murderous rapist. If you believe that, you're as racist as those peddling that "information."
Re:All I gotta say is... by MillionthMonkey · 2005-09-01 17:22 · Score: 5, Insightful

Hate to push you off of your high horse, but how exactly are we to show compassion towards someone committing rape?

Of course you don't show compassion toward that person, considered in isolation.

And yet I have been reading many characterizations of this hurricane's victims as being all looters and rapists, who deserve no sympathy and who should be fired on from helicopters. As if everyone in the city had all gathered in the Superdome and voted for the raping to begin.

Some percentage of the population can't behave themselves even when there is rule of law. Eventually they end up in jail.

An additional percentage of the population will behave, because they don't want to go to jail. When anarchy breaks out, the rule of law is gone, and the cops have no gasoline, bullets, or effective authority, these are the people who run around raping and looting and causing trouble. If they were members of the first group they'd be in jail and you wouldn't see them. When the cops are able to do their jobs, they behave. You meet some of them every day and don't realize it.

Don't be tempted to characterize the entire population by the actions of this group when order breaks down. The media isn't helping, and is conflating them with the "good people" who lift items like toothpaste and bottled water, if they can justify taking it enough to satisfy their consciences. From a helicopter they all look the same.

But the latent troublemakers are just reflecting a facet of human nature- these people exist in all cultures. We saw the same thing happen in Baghdad two years ago, remember? Do you recall the puzzlement? Everyone wondering why are the Iraqis destroying their own country? Not all of them were- the ones that did were the ones that we noticed. Entire populations don't just all just get together and decide to misbehave. You, as an observer, need to be mindful of your own tendency to generalize. Especially now.
Re:All I gotta say is... by fm6 · 2005-09-01 17:59 · Score: 4, Funny

Also for understatement.
Re:All I gotta say is... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 18:42 · Score: 2, Funny

Apologist ( P ) Pronunciation Key (-pl-jst)
n.
A person who argues in defense or justification of something, such as a doctrine, policy, or institution (or looting/mayhem/anarchy etc).

argumentum ad lexicon
n.
A form of logical fallacy, in which some dickhead posts dictionary definitions that he thinks make him look smart.
Re:All I gotta say is... by ThePeices · 2005-09-01 19:27 · Score: 4, Interesting

You are an absolute imbecile. NOT ALL VICTIMS ARE RAPING LOOTING MURDERING CRIMINALS. These are helpless suffering people, everyday people. Where is your compassion! These people are left without aid. Your own people for fuck sake. This is the biggest natural disaster to hit the US, and one of its biggest discraces. The rest of the world looks upon this all and are absolutely stunned that the government and people are doing squat to help. Why on earth isnt there a mass airlift to drop supplies to the hospitals and desperate people living in barbaric conditions. You send all these armed soldiers to shoot looters inseat. No supplies, no water, no food, nothing. Shame on you America.
Re:All I gotta say is... by dagr8tim · 2005-09-01 21:05 · Score: 2, Insightful

Original Quote:When you're raised in a hurricane area, you're indoctrinated EVERYWHERE basic Civil Defense survival especially in the case of a hurricane. That includes stocking at least 2 weeks food.
Your Quote:Lot of good that 2 weeks of food does you when you're trapped in your attic and the water's coming in. By then the food's either soaked in crud or floated away.
While I agree with 90% of what you say, I feel I must point this out.
If you live in a Hurricane/Flooding area, why don't you store emercancy supplies in the highest spot you can find? I mean for cripes sake, how much of that area is below, at, or barely above sea level? I'm not trying to lessen the pain and misery of the sitution, but still. My heart goes out to the folks who have been displaced or worse.
If it were me, I'd have had some emergancy stores in the attic. Where I live the possibility of a tornado is real. I keep my emergancy stores in the basement.

--
"Does your computer have IP on it?"
Re:All I gotta say is... by salesgeek · 2005-09-01 23:54 · Score: 3, Interesting

But of course, there was no organized evacuation. No buses, nothing. People were just told to leave on their own. Some people don't own cars. Or gasoline. They live paycheck to paycheck. Lots of these people rely on government checks that arrive on the first of the month.

What really struck me is how many of the people of New Orleans decided to steal from each other instead of help each other. It's really sad to see people busy stealing watches, camcorders and cadilacs while people are dying around them.

Equally tragic was the response of especially the Army and Air Force - they did not deploy nearly fast enough. Just the presence of troops would have prevented a lot of the carnage.

I love how all the "real" Americans among us are the first to turn on their less fortunate countrymen when a disaster strikes.

I don't think this is the case at all. I think people are sickened by victims of a disaster turning on each other and stealing cars, jewelry, electronics and other luxury items while people are dying that could be as easily saved from the water as the five rolexes they grabbed. One thing is certain: we as a nation need to re-think how we deal with disasters and focus on 1) making sure everyone has food shelter and security 2) helping get people relocated quickly so they can be reunited with their families and get on with the business of living and 3) dealing with those who would rather steal luxury items rather than help their fellow man appropriately.

Who cares about money and luxuries when people are literally dying around you?

--
-- $G
Re:All I gotta say is... by Cat_Byte · 2005-09-02 01:28 · Score: 2, Interesting

If it were me, I'd have had some emergancy stores in the attic.

Do you know how hot it gets in attics in the south? Water bottles and canned food alone would pop. Also many attics aren't set up with a board floor. Most I have seen have a small section where they can store the Christmas tree, etc right inside the entrance and that's it. Seriously though this is hindsight and similar to saying everyone in the world who has ever been hit with a terrorist attack should have months of water stored right this moment in case the water supply is poisoned.

--
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
Re:All I gotta say is... by Cat_Byte · 2005-09-02 01:34 · Score: 2, Insightful

I cant believe that americans wont even help their own.

I live in TX and can tell you that is incorrect. Since the day it started we have had radio stations telling people where to drop off donations, supplies, water, etc and there was traffic backed up for hours around those locations. Now we are taking in refugees and filling up sports arenas. Dallas is already set up and waiting. I see daily interviews of volunteers who went to help any way they could and the horror stories they brought back with them.

--
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I - I took the one the bus load of girls just went down.
Re:All I gotta say is... by einTier · 2005-09-02 04:17 · Score: 2, Interesting

I don't think you've lived in a hurricane prone area. Your comment just doesn't hold water.
I grew up on the Texas side of the Louisiana-Texas border, right on the Gulf Coast. When I say I lived right on the Gulf Coast, I mean it was a ten minute trip for me to get to the beach. I can distinctly remember plotting every single hurricane that even looked like it was coming into the Gulf, and I even fled from a couple. There's a road along the beach not far from my house that was rebuilt a half dozen times before a hurricane tore the fuck out of it in the mid-80's and they elected to just let it rot rather than rebuild it. I say these things because I want people to understand two things: hurricanes are not unknown to me and I understand the mentality of the people who stayed behind.
No one knew this hurricane was coming or that it would be that bad. Normally, you have a couple weeks of tracking the hurricane out of the Atlantic and into the Gulf, and usually a good solid week to think about where it's going to hit and how strong its going to be. Katrina was named on Wedensday the 24th. On the 25th, it made landfall in Florida as a category one storm. Category one storms are not something you worry about -- you'll get some wind and rain, and if you live right on the beach, you might want to board up your house, but we're not talking evacuation. Over the next three days, it went from a Category 1 to a Category 5. So, Saturday is about when everyone realized the shit was going to hit the fan. Katrina made landfall early Monday morning. That's about 48 hours tops to evacuate. I don't supposed you've ever tried to evacuate during a hurricane, but I can tell you from experience that it can take you 48 hours stuck in traffic just to reach relative safety. I have turned around during an evacuation just because I was convinced I wouldn't get out of town in time.
Which brings us to another problem: living on the coast makes you complacent. Every single year there is at least one hurricane that "threatens" to come ashore in your area. Sometimes two or three. It had been 35 years since New Orleans experienced a real blow from a hurricane. My home town has had a number of close calls over the past 50 years -- but not one direct hit. After you evacuate from a couple and return to clear skys and no property damage, you start wondering why you took the time and spent the money to flee. Worse, you might run from the hurricane and end up right in its path. It's just a huge gamble, and after a while, you get a fairly large group of people who are convinced that all they'll see, if anything, is a lot of wind and rain, and they're better off protecting their property from looters anyway. Besides, if the "big one" does come through, they know that death tolls are usually fairly low among the population that elects to stay. Even as large as the tolls are from Katrina, when you consider that hundreds of thousands stayed behind, it's really not all that bad.
And really, the hit on New Orleans wasn't all that bad either -- there were people on Bourbon Street drinking in bars the next day, congratulating each other on surviving another close call. And then the levees broke. That's when things really went to shit.
So, there wasn't ample prepareness time, and we're still trying to figure out how to fix a problem of this magnitude. I'm sure you've seen the destruction, so where do we begin?
Most people don't keep any more groceries on the Gulf Coast than people anywhere else. Sure, it's a good idea, but that doesn't mean that everyone follows it -- and even if they had, all of that food is ruined anyway.
I'm not excusing the lawlessness, but I am saying that I understand why so many chose to stay and put themselves in such a precarious situation. It happens. I should have run from Hurricane Andrew in 1992, but I stayed home. Had we suffered a direct hit from Andrew as was predicted, I would be in the same position as the residents of New Orleans are today -- but instead of wind and rain, I got sunny skys and a deserted town and a lot of time to play video games.

--
-------------------------------------------------- $665.95 -- retail price of the beast.

Seems trivial... by TimTheFoolMan · 2005-09-01 14:52 · Score: 5, Insightful

...until you realize how many people are using blogs and other internet services as their only means of communication.

Tim

Chaos too harsh a word by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 14:54 · Score: 2, Funny

Let's call it "extreme libertarianism."

Re:Chaos too harsh a word by rubycodez · 2005-09-01 15:51 · Score: 4, Insightful

thugs are thugs with or without guns. the same for rapists, if this happened a thousand years ago they'd be using swords, knives, spears and bows. decent people with guns or any other weapon aren't going to rape girls or kill police or steal generators from barely functioning hospitals. this whole thing only shows me why it's wise to keep weapons, but also to be absolutely responsible and rational with their possession and use. My having a gun or a knife is not a threat to any good person and not a threat to police.
Re:Chaos too harsh a word by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-09-01 16:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

In a libertarian society, there would be massive amounts of aid there.
Sir, you have your ideologies mixed up. As far as I know, as per Ayn Rand, "altruism is a folly". Ergo, in a Libertarian society, following the sacred rules, there would be no aid. You see, all those poeple down there brought that disaster onto themselves by being ... I guess black, poor or the combination of thereof. Or something.
On the other hand, it is us, the "bleeding heart" pinko-commie libruls, who are evilly ploting to do those treasonous "social safety net" and "disaster relief" things. Which seems to work for us here in Canada, as the 1997 flood experience showed, but hey, we are all beavers up here anyhow, so thats probably why, eh?
Re:Chaos too harsh a word by Shoggoth+of+Maul · 2005-09-01 17:24 · Score: 2, Interesting

They'd also have some idea how to use those swords, spears and bows, at least. Maybe knives too, if used in conjunction with or in opposition to one of the others.

Just having a weapon isn't enough. You have to be competent with it, and realize that your weapon doesn't replace your brain. If you can't keep your head and your moral compass pointed in the same direction, I'd rather not augment your threat by enabling you to project extra force on other people.

The situation I observe in New Orleans (I don't for a second believe it's that accurate) makes me wonder if society isn't just based on trust and the threat of force. I mean, once our infrastructure and utilities break down, the pressure of all those people in so little space starts to tell.
Re:Chaos too harsh a word by BitGeek · 2005-09-01 18:54 · Score: 3, Insightful

In a libertarian society, there would be massive amounts of aid there. But say you live in Baton Rouge and want to drive a truck down with water and food. Can you? Hell no- the police won't let you in... and if the do, they certainly won't let you sell the food and water. So, less people are doing it. Where is the RED CROSS? Where is anyone with food or water or medicine? The National Guard is tooling around in empty trucks. The cops are too busy keeping people from leaving the city, and herding them at gunpoint. This is not libertarianism-- this is fascist socialism.

500 tourists were stopped by the police as they tried to exit the city tonight. One was interviewed on CNN. They were stopped at gunpoint. Their busses, which they had paid for, were commandered. And not to pick up people who needed them-- there are thousands standing outside the superdome, who have been there for 3 days, and have gotten ZERO busses. No, the police just stole them, and forced the tourists back into the city at gunpoint. Wouldn't let them walk out. If some of those tourists had had firearms and the sense to use them, less of them would die than will now die because of this police action. THIS IS THE SOCIALIST POLICE STATE IN ACTION.

You socialists want people disarmed and dependant on the state-- and this is what you get.

Congratulations. Thousands dead. You happy?

--
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/ 1816257
Re:Chaos too harsh a word by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-09-02 17:39 · Score: 2, Interesting

so how on earth could there be a rule against charity? Or have I missed something?
No rule, per se, but the Libertarians are very closely aligned with ideas of Ayn Rand, who considered altruism to be a vice. On practical level, a vast majority of Libertarians (contrary to what they try to appear at first, you have to drill them a bit) are in fact believers in Social Darwinism and extreme selfishness. You can draw your conclusions from there. Perheaps "no" aid is a bit strong, it would most likely be "token" aid. Not much of a difference. Note that one of them proposed that Libertarian "rescuers" would selflessly charge the victims "at cost" for the water they deliver (and the airlifts I presume). Ponder that.
Also from a point of view of logistics, since no governmental, tax-supported organisation would exist, you would end up with a total chaos in the case of such magnitude as ... well anything more then a car accident actualy, as to render any aid meaningless.
But then political discussions on this site, no matter the subject, rapidly descend into idiotic, close-minded, immature, uninformed flamewars, so I don't think I'll get involved in this one.
That is the charm of Slashdot! Bring ye asbestos underware all who dare to enter here!
Re:Chaos too harsh a word by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-09-02 17:57 · Score: 2, Informative

choosing to live in an extremely flood-prone area!
While I can see your point, I think the issue is far more complex then that. You assume that they had the knowledge of this disaster being near inevietable, as many experts had. This goes to the core of the failures of the modern "free-market" society: the restricted flow of information and brainwashing of consumers. I can guarantee you that 99% of those living there had only but a faint notion that something this drastic could occur when they settled there and on the oposite side a pile of smiling, happy-go-lucky real estate developers peddling the new homes built on reclaimed swampland to them. Add to this social pressure (a.k.a. herd mentality) of "this cant be as bad as those tin-foil hats are saying, the Johnses have a a beutiful house there!". Blaiming those (specially uneducated and poor) for the shenaningas of business crooks and idiotic believers in divinity of free-market is somewhat far reaching in my book.
You would have a more valid point with beach properties which are destroyed nearly yearly. Those should simply have insurance premiums increased until the point where the yearly payment is the cost of the house (and no government bailouts due to chosen risk).
This is a perfect example as to why some stricty enforced rules have to exist in the marketplace and why education of consumers combined with no tolerance for brainwashing masquarading as advertising should be an extremely high priority. If the government went door to door and requested extra tax on these properties due to danger, there would still be swampland there instead of developments or the levees would be resembling the Maginot line. Some would propose a no-bailout policy for the government but that is a mis-guided approach since it would allow the consumer fleecing to go on unhindered and merely compound the magnitude of any disaster.
I lay the blame for what is happening squarely at the feet of "laissez fare" marketplace advocates and abusers, where it rightully belongs.

Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by BitGeek · 2005-09-01 14:56 · Score: 4, Insightful

It was interesting to see in that blog that what I've heard elsewhere is confirmed: Police are doing much of the looting.

Its unfortunate that government sweeps in during disasters and starts making mandates that make things worse. Like prohibitions against price "gauging". What, they htink things get cheaper when the infrastructure is destroyed?

Gauging actually helps-- it brings in more supply to service that demand, and ultimately prices go down FASTER when the free market is allowed.

Here's an economists take on the issue:
Price Gauging saves lives: http://www.mises.org/story/1593
And another: http://www.lewrockwell.com/akers/akers16.html

--
Yeah, and you guys panned the ipod too: http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=01/10/23/ 1816257

Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by FireballX301 · 2005-09-01 15:06 · Score: 5, Interesting

Except that as far as I know from friends that were able to contact me, the cops are looting stuff like gun shops and food shops. Unlike the other looters that steal money (wtf is the point of money in New Orleans right now, eh), and non-critical supplies.

Also, you described the economic side of price gouging - fair enough. Now, IN THE MEANTIME, whilst the supplies are being shipped in, nobody can pay for their foodstuffs. They die. Congratulations.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by GooberToo · 2005-09-01 15:20 · Score: 5, Informative

"Hell, the dikes wouldn't have overflowed if the repair money to fix them hadn't been diverted to the dept of homeland "security" last summer."

Not true. I guess it makes for a more dramatic story if they leave out the facts. Simple fact is, if the money had not been diverted, the money would of been spent on a project which would still not have been completed and the city would have still be lost. But, telling half truths on the news makes for a much better story. I heard this from an Army Corps of Engineers representative on the news this morning. According to him, even if they had started the project in 2002, the project probably would not have been completed until at least 2008. This is 2005, last I checked, which means the project probably wouldn't of started until about a year ago, which means we would of flushed that money with the rest of the city.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by Bios_Hakr · 2005-09-01 15:23 · Score: 5, Insightful

He's not talking about food. Or maybe he is. In any event, here is an example:

A hurricane comes through. Houses are destroyed. People come in to rebuild knowing that they will get rich. Governor sets a price cap. Builders know that they can go elsewhere and get better profits with less hastle, so they leave.

The people who come into an area to rebuild need an economic incentive. If you want to remove that incentive, fine. But then you have to mandate that people rebuild regardless of their wishes.

Unless you are going to have government contracts to rebuild things, you can't remove free market incentives.

Now, things like food, clothing, tents should be provided, free of charge, by the government. No if's ands or buts. We spend millions to provide MREs to Africa/Asia; spending billions on our own people shouldn't be a problem.

--
I'd rather you do it wrong, than for me to have to do it at all.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by badasscat · 2005-09-01 15:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

It was interesting to see in that blog that what I've heard elsewhere is confirmed: Police are doing much of the looting.

Ok, let's be clear about this, because both your and the blog's statements are pretty inflammatory and not accurate.

In a declared emergency, the police are allowed and in fact in some cases even required to commandeer what they see fit to maintain order and public safety. That does include guns and food. This is not "looting". The store owners are all reimbursed by the city and state later.

This happens all the time, but the one instance I can remember that was pretty heavily publicized was during that bank robbery and shootout in Los Angeles a while back, where the police were so outgunned that they went to a gun store during the gunfight and picked it clean. This is part of their duty; they have the authority and responsibility to commandeer items required to do their job during a public emergency.

It's really no different than a firefighter breaking somebody's door down during a fire. I mean, are they breaking and entering? Do you have them arrested for tresspassing? Obviously not - they're doing what they need to do to get the job done, and they're legally allowed to do it.

I think it's actually pretty tasteless for this guy to write something like "who knows what their real motives are?"... I mean, these are the guys out there in the direct line of fire trying to protect and feed a whole lot of innocent people who haven't eaten or drunk anything in 3 or 4 days. They're getting shot at (and hit) by street thugs for no reason, and they're doing their best to restore order in a clear vacuum of leadership and without nearly enough manpower.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by ErikZ · 2005-09-01 15:59 · Score: 5, Insightful

The levy that broke WAS upgraded to withstand the cat4 hurricanes.

And the project to upgrade the levys has been going since 1965! This is not the federal governments fault. If the dam levy is so important to people in New Orleans, have them come up with the money to fix it themselves!

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Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by ErikZ · 2005-09-01 16:03 · Score: 5, Interesting

Heartless bastard reporting for duty.

New Orleans has been sinking into the swamp for years. The city is essentially a hole in the ground, surrounded by water. You know why the cemetaries have above ground caskets? They're 15 feet below sea level. The hole fills up with water as fast as they can dig it.

If we rebuild, it *will* happen again. And then what? We pay to have it rebuilt again? If the city was next to an active volcano, would you be saying we should rebuild it?

--
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by protolith · 2005-09-01 16:24 · Score: 4, Insightful

http://www.livejournal.com/users/interdictor/36111 .html/

I do appreciate the need for police to commandeer supplies, food, weapons, ammo,etc.

But what does the cop 2/3 rds down the page need with a stack of DVDs? Thats a picture of police looting, plain and simple, sucks but cops are people too, they are fallable too, trying to pretend it doesn't happen or sweep it under the rug because of the risks cops make will do nothing to keep cops from looting in the future.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by demachina · 2005-09-01 16:37 · Score: 5, Informative

This article tends to contradict your assertion. It kind of sounds like the corp was in fact going around Louisiana begging for money to do emergency repairs. Not clear if the repairs would have salvaged the levies that collapsed but one was on the canal levee that failed. When it comes to levees the old saying "a stitch in time" usually applies. If you let a crack develop or let it sink, when flood water starts spilling at the weak spot it quickly takes out the whole thing.

"Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. From the June 18, 2004 Times-Picayune:"

"The system is in great shape, but the levees are sinking. Everything is sinking, and if we don't get the money fast enough to raise them, then we can't stay ahead of the settlement," he said. "The problem that we have isn't that the levee is low, but that the federal funds have dried up so that we can't raise them."

"The panel authorized that money, and on July 1, 2004, it had to pony up another $250,000 when it learned that stretches of the levee in Metairie had sunk by four feet. The agency had to pay for the work with higher property taxes. The levee board noted in October 2004 that the feds were also now not paying for a hoped-for $15 million project to better shore up the banks of Lake Pontchartrain."

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@de_machina
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by Pompatus · 2005-09-01 17:01 · Score: 2, Insightful

If we rebuild, it *will* happen again. And then what? We pay to have it rebuilt again? If the city was next to an active volcano, would you be saying we should rebuild it?

what magical land do you live in that has no natural disasters?

New Orleans is alive with unique culture and vast history. I'm sorry that you've never been there to experience it. Perhaps when it is rebuilt it is done right and will be able to withstand a major hurricane as well as any other city might.

Even if you don't appreciate culture and history, at least you might consider your increased gas prices. Wars have been started for these types of things :)

--

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Squirrel ... It's not just for breakfast anymore
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by randyest · 2005-09-01 17:55 · Score: 4, Informative

We spend millions to provide MREs to Africa/Asia; spending billions on our own people shouldn't be a problem.

I don't know that gouging is necessary to ensure a healthy profit and encourage rebuilding. I'm quite sure "getting rich" instantly is not necessary for construction projects to be worthwhile.

But I must emphasize your 1000x underestimation of US aid to Africa. Please note that we spend Billions in Africa (with a 'B') just to fight AIDS and that's not enough!: There remains today a huge gap between the estimated annual needs of $3-4 billion for HIV/AIDS and current annual expenditures.

Bush has refused to endorse Blair's plan to double aid to Africa from rich nations to $25 billion annually now and $50 billion each year starting in 2015.

The White House has not decided how much more direct assistance to Africa it will offer at the G8 summit. The United States provides $3.2 billion in aid and much more through Bush's AIDS program, which calls for $3 billion a year to be spent combating the deadly disease, of which about 80 percent is expected to go to Africa. About half of the $5 billion Bush has promised from the Millennium Fund, which provides financial assistance to governments that commit to democratic and economic reforms, will go to Africa.

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everything in moderation
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by ErikZ · 2005-09-01 20:14 · Score: 3, Informative

"what magical land do you live in that has no natural disasters?"

Colorado. Although the natural disaster here has been drought, and fire. You know what happened after that? People who want to build their houses in the woods can't get fire insurance.

And if their homes get burned down again, they shouldn't get federal money for that.

I do appreciate culture and history. When will be rebuild Pompeii?

The city is sinking into the swamp like a scene in a Monty Python skit and you want to build it up again.

--
Democrats or Republicans. They are both taking us to the same place and they are not afraid of us anymore.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by WindBourne · 2005-09-01 23:16 · Score: 5, Informative

http://www.nola.com/hurricane/katrina/pdf/083105/a 5.pdf

More likely, a lot of both. What ppl seem to be forgetting here, is that NO police department about 5 years ago, was considered the most corrupt in the nation. In fact, during a federal probe of the city, they had to call an early end to it, because they had to stop a murder. Apparently the chief of police (or possibly an assistant chief) had ordered a hit on somebody for not paying up.

That does not mean that all are corrupt there. But no doubt there are a lot that are.

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I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by gl4ss · 2005-09-02 00:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

it's not about "appreaciting" culture or history. it's ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT'S NOT ON A GOOD PLACE. the place is not a good place to decide to build a big city on. it's an expensive risk to build the city there again, a risk that doesn't have much point.

"done right" would be to raise it from being under the sea level.. and would cost obscene amounts of money and not really have any point in it.

you think that's it's smart to build on a land that you _know_ is under the sea level and that you _know_ will face a major disaster easier than a town that's built 50km from it? you think that all places on earth are on the same risk level? that's just stupid. as stupid as taking unnecessary risks just to converse something you could converse at the NEW PLACE just as well. a community is not about the buildings or where the buildings are but about the people who live in them.

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world was created 5 seconds before this post as it is.
Re:Police doing the looting...Government SNAFU by demachina · 2005-09-02 03:50 · Score: 2, Insightful

The key issue is that I'm not sure the Corp was even keeping up with basic maintenance and emergency repairs for two reasons:

- Their funding had been slashed by the Bush administration.

- The Corp has been severely stretched helping rebuild Iraq.

The officers heading the corp aren't going to admit that they let maintenance slip so I think an investigation is called for and not take them at their word. This is the same Army Corp of Engineers who gave Halliburton a 5 year no bid contract to rebuild Iraq's oil fields. Recently when a top Corp procurement officer savaged the impropriety of that contract before Congress the Corp retaliated by demoting and transferring her. You can't the Corp at their word unfortunately.

Now I can see you ranting about whether this is a Federal, State or Local responsibility. The fact is one or two of the failed levees are essentially owned by the Army. One I think was a local levee district.

BUT, and its a big BUT, you are basically saying that its the right thing to do for the Army Corp of Engineers to spend all of their time and energy, and our tax dollars, rebuilding Iraq, while their domestic obligations go to hell and it may, I repeat may, have contributed to a major disaster in the U.S. thats cost American lives and helped devastate the American economy. THAT IS SO RICH!!!!!!

It sickens me more and more everyday to see New Orleans degenerate in to anarchy exactly like Baghdad did because the Bush administration didn't do its job and get the guard in there to maintain order, just like Baghdad. Once you let anarchy and looting set in, its vastly harder to restore order than it is to keep it in the first place.

Its an unspoken fact here that the National Guard, and the U.S. military are stretched so thin, thanks to Iraq, they largely failed to respond to a crisis at home. The national priorities here are completely screwed up. I'm not sure I'm the only one to think this but to hell with Iraq and Iraqis if it means letting America go to hell.

I really wonder how much of the week Federal response was due to the vast numbers of people and equipment that are in Iraq, in particular things like Guard aircraft, tankers, trucks, water treatment equipment, generators, radios, etc.

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@de_machina

Brilliant! They keep the servers up ... by rahlquist · 2005-09-01 14:57 · Score: 5, Funny

They keep em up through a hurricane, flooding, riots and the /. editors decide to take the servers down themselves...

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Sick of stupidity? http://www.patentlystupid.com

Re:Brilliant! They keep the servers up ... by pdawson · 2005-09-01 15:15 · Score: 2, Informative

They keep em up through a hurricane, flooding, riots and the /. editors decide to take the servers down themselves...

The blog is a LiveJournal account, LJ's weathered several slashdotings before without problems.

Data Link Source by Nerd+Systems · 2005-09-01 14:59 · Score: 3, Interesting

Just curious, where is the power for his net connection coming from? He has an OC4 up and running... yet nobody else has phone service or internet service... I understand he has generator power... what I do not understand is what is powering the data lines running to his location... are they all on major generators also?

--
Need a Nerd?
Nerd Systems

Re:Data Link Source by Nerd+Systems · 2005-09-01 15:17 · Score: 4, Interesting

Well, I can understand having fiber to his location... yet fiber still needs a repeater every so often, to keep the signal going... I wonder where his connection is coming from, that his fiber or whatever he is using, still has power, when everything else in the surrounding area is down at this time. I would call this a SUPERB datacenter, able to withstand a Category Hurricane, Flooding, Lawlessness, and everything else, and still keeps going. Donny, if you are reading this, please give us a background of your data center setup, such as connection types and what not.

--
Need a Nerd?
Nerd Systems
Re:Data Link Source by arootbeer · 2005-09-01 15:18 · Score: 3, Informative

He's got at least a couple of OC3s coming from Bell South(?) It's listed farther down in today's entries.
Re:Data Link Source by thogard · 2005-09-01 15:28 · Score: 5, Informative

The OC4 will be fiber all the way to a major exchange building and most of that sort of stuff is way up top. If its a typical telco, they have lots of batteries for the OC4 gear because they tend to build battery packs as if they were for the exchange gear which takes far more power. The result is there is a very expensive fiber switch thats has a direct fiber connection from very far away (maybe as far Dallas or Atlanta) and it has power. The risk to that type of connection is that sometimes the water will cause noise in the fiber splices or the generator will die or someone will break the upstream link while trying to fix something far away.

If only the federal, state, and local governments by Petrox · 2005-09-01 14:59 · Score: 4, Insightful

...were so diligent. Seriously, the madness and 'Lord of the Flies' atmosphere that has taken place in my home city of New Orleans with no food, no water, no communication, and no signs of help are heartbreaking and a true tragedy. The loss is immense and our government has failed us--this is the United States and we needed to do better for our own.

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sig my booty, check my website

we are busy.. by joeldg · 2005-09-01 15:00 · Score: 5, Informative

as a directnic employee working remotely from Manhattan I have been working round the clock to aid these guys any way I can.
we are on freenode in #interdictor

we have had a lot of support, thank you guys.

as far as directnic employees, we have made contact with most, we are still missing our entire accounting/HR department and many of our support people are MIA, we can only assume they got out.

as a company, the majority of our employees are currently homeless and are regrouping in Florida currently.

They are pretty hardcore there, not sure they can even get out now..

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anime+manga together at last.. in real time.

Remember, Interdictor by Lothar+0 · 2005-09-01 15:02 · Score: 2, Funny

If anyone enters, looks threatening and asks, just reply, "MASTER BLASTER RUNS BARTERTOWN!" Works like a charm.

--
"Anonymous Coward" is for whistleblowers, not unpopular opinions.

Re:Mirror of his blog by Guspaz · 2005-09-01 15:03 · Score: 4, Informative

His blog is hosted by LiveJournal. I find it highly unlikely that LiveJournal can be slashdotted considering it's enormity. Mirroring LiveJournal seems a bit silly, it is like mirroring slashdot if boingboing were to link to it, it is pointless.

DONATE by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 15:03 · Score: 5, Informative

Red Cross: 1-800-HELP-NOW or www.redcross.org

AmeriCares:americares.org

RoommateClick.com
Site offering a service for the New Orleans homeless, free of charge.

Baton Rouge Area Foundation(BRAF): 877.387.6126 or braf.org

Episcopal Relief & Development: 1-800-334-7626 or www.er-d.org

United Methodist Committee on Relief: 1-800-554-8583 or gbgm-umc.org/umcor/emergency/hurricanes/2005

Salvation Army: 1-800-SAL-ARMY or www.salvationarmyusa.org

Catholic Charities: 1-800-919-9338 or www.catholiccharitiesusa.org

FEMA Charity tips: www.fema.gov/rrr/help2.shtm

National Voluntary Organizations Active in Disaster: www.nvoad.org

Louisiana Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals: www.la-spca.org

Operation Blessing: 1-800-436-6348 or www.ob.org

America's Second Harvest: 1-800-344-8070 or www.secondharvest.org

Adventist Community Services: 1-800-381-7171 or www.adventist.communityservices.org

Christian Disaster Response: 1-941-956-5183 or 1-941-551-9554 or www.cdresponse.org/cdrhome.html

Christian Reformed World Relief Committee: 1-800-848-5818 or www.crwrc.org

Church World Service: 1-800-297-1516 or www.churchworldservice.org

Convoy of Hope: 1-417-823-8998 or www.convoyofhope.org

Lutheran Disaster Response: 1-800-638-3522 or www.elca.org/disaster

Mennonite Disaster Service: 1-717-859-2210 or www.mds.mennonite.net

Nazarene Disaster Response: 1-888-256-5886 or www.nazarenedisasterresponse.org

Presbyterian Disaster Assistance: 1-800-872-3283 or www.pcusa.org/pda

Southern Baptist Convention - Disaster Relief: 1-800-462-8657, ext. 6440 or www.namb.net

Re:DONATE by bstadil · 2005-09-01 16:18 · Score: 2, Interesting

Disclaimer: I am an extermely cynical atheist and I am militantly anti-Christianity.
Ditto
I donated to Planned Parenthood
The site has an explanation why condoms etc. is of some importance at this stage in the relief effort.

--
Help fight continental drift.

Just remember by mnemonic_ · 2005-09-01 15:07 · Score: 5, Insightful

Your worst team meeting, software development project or vacation gone wrong is 1/1,000,000 as complex as what the relief personnel are handling. You may have been thwarted by snow on the road, delayed flights, crashing computers, lost data, wrong cellphone numbers or ill coworkers; these guys are dealing with non-existant roads, riots, gun shots, power loss and starvation. This is spread across 50,000 square miles of cities turned lakes. None of us can possibly fathom the details evacuating 60,000 people must be, tending to their transportation and health through an almost literal warzone.

We may know it's complex, but unless we're intimitely involved we cannot accurately critique the relief efforts. It'd be comparable to Brian Williams analyzing the Linux kernel structure, or attempting to explain fighter tactics. Without first-hand knowledge, opinions on sophisticated matters are worthless. As slashdotters who regularly tear apart the mass media on technical inaccuracies, we all should know this well

IRC is NOT FULL by The+Kow · 2005-09-01 15:08 · Score: 5, Informative

We are NOT full to capacity, please feel free to participate.

irc.freenode.net #interdictor

There are several sub-channels, such as #interdictor-chat for discussion/dialogue, #interdictor-scanner for a transcript of the radio scanner, etc.

We are also trying to track any news and information we can find to provide a summarized glimpse of the events as they happen. We're avoiding things that are already available through major news outlets, but any first-hand accounts, independent news sources, eye-witness information, international news, etc. (anything you couldn't find through, say, Fox News or MSNBC), please don't hesitate to help out.

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Moo

Re-unification site by EMIce · 2005-09-01 15:10 · Score: 4, Interesting

How about some slashdotters set up a database driven site where people can register to be found and find others? They could list their employer, address, any significant information. I don't have the resources to do this but would be glad to help in throwing together some php and sql if given some server space.

Re:Re-unification site by learn+fast · 2005-09-01 15:22 · Score: 3, Informative

We could call this site craigslist

and more.

great place to offer what you can
Re:Re-unification site by ntsucks · 2005-09-01 16:47 · Score: 4, Informative

http://findkatrina.com/
http://www.fullcircle.net/

--
Those who can do. Those who can't sue.
Re:Re-unification site by sasha328 · 2005-09-01 17:59 · Score: 2, Informative

There is a program already in place. It managed by the Red Cross: see here. It's been successfully in use for decades. I can confirm the value it adds because we have used this service before.
Re:Re-unification site by AndrewR81 · 2005-09-01 20:22 · Score: 2, Informative

Apparently someone who hosts at textdrive.com built something like you describe, put it online, but the servers got swamped.
They're currently looking for a host.
From here:

Katrina sites at TextDrive need some help
Some of our friends here at TextDrive have put up some Katrina sites, and one in particular was done by Josh Benton, who is a reporter with The Dallas Morning News, and is from that area.
Josh's site (katrinacheckin.org) allows people from that area and their loved ones to connect, talk to each other in a forum and to post about missing loved ones. It seems to have been picked up by the media and some people from back home and we all of sudden found it running at 120Mbps and doing about 1000 requests/second, and has been doing that for about the last 9 hours.
The problem is that we ourselves honestly can't sustain that output from a single site with no notice, and being still in the middle of a datacenter move where we maintained two parallel setups.
So if you happen to have about 5-10ish extra (high-end) servers and an extra 100-1000Mbps drop sitting around, and would be able to help out, please let me know at jason at textdrive dot com.
Thank you.

Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Helpadingoatemybaby · 2005-09-01 15:14 · Score: 5, Insightful

Here is what Bush did right after his grave speech about how difficult this time would be. This was just yesterday when people were dying. You can see the Presidential Seal on the guitar he's smiling and playing, which apparently was supplied by the US Department of Irony:

http://americablog.blogspot.com/uploaded_images/gu itar-710427.jpg

Pictures of bodies floating by are currently on the front page of the New York Times.

I posted the following quote on the previous article, with no conclusions, but it was modded down by people who dislike facts they disagree with. Additionally there's more information now and I am posting a link to the original article from editor and publisher:

"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us." June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana, in the Times-Picayune

http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/artic le_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1001051313 The above article also details what cuts were done by Bush to the SELA grants (for levees in New Orleans), which, by the way, were started and funded in 1995.

Additionally it appears that Louisiana should have been "high on the list of FEMA's biggest disaster mitigation grant program" but received nothing. Here's the article that states this: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-2 8/cover_story2.html Now, as before, mod this post into oblivion so that you don't have to see Bush smiling and playing the guitar yesterday while bodies float around. I'm not sure what disgusts me more -- him doing that, or people closing their eyes to truth.

--

The baby's fine -- please stop sending business cards.

Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Ingolfke · 2005-09-01 15:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

Additionally it appears that Louisiana should have been "high on the list of FEMA's biggest disaster mitigation grant program" but received nothing. Here's the article that states this: http://www.bestofneworleans.com/dispatch/2004-09-2 8/cover_story2.html

The article states that the reason Jefferson Parish' potentially high ranking was because it has a disproportionate number of "repetitive loss structures." Those are structures that have suffered flood damage two or more times over a 10-year period and the cost to repair the structure equals or exceeds 25 percent of its market value. This means that the issue being discussed in the article was general flooding due to rain and rising rivers, not levee breaks. Specifically they are talking about areas that have been flooded 2 or more times... which indicates a flood prone area (no surprise considering it's on the delta and below sea level in some places). My point is this article has nothing to do with the levee disaster.

At the end of the article we find this statement:

One possible reason for the non-selection, Rodrigue hypothesizes, was that early in 2004, FEMA auditors discovered that a private consultant hired by the state to administer FEMA money had misallocated funds in Slidell, Mandeville and other places in St. Tammany Parish. "I think it was connected to the fact that there was an ongoing investigation," Rodrigue says, although he noted that other parishes, including Jefferson, were audited by both FEMA and the state during the investigation and came out clean.

So the alleged city government corruption that we've heard about seems to have caused some problems w/ New Orleans getting money. Which it should have... if the local government was improperly allocating the funds we should not continue to give them money until the issue can be properly investigated and we can ensure they are using the funds correctly. Point is, the local government seemed to contribute to their own inability to get the funds... again this is irrelevent because the agument for them to get the money in first place had to do w/ basic flooding, not levee breaks.

The first article... is troubling. I read it and I'm left wondering if money would have solved the problem or not. What would the impact of the proposed projects truly have been? Do we know (considering they wanted to do a 4 year study to even determine how to protect New Orleans)? When would the projects have been completed? Does raising levees really solve the problem. I'm not a structural engineer but I would expect that the point of raising levees is to withstand higher water levels... not keep the levees from breaking Why did we know about this since the 1960s, and then only start acting when 6 people died in a flood in 1995? It is troubling though.

It makes me wonder about why we even let the federal government pay for this kind of stuff? I mean... why shouldn't we reduce federal taxes in order to allow states to raise their taxes as needed to fund the projects that are important to the states? People would have far more control over how the money was spent b/c it would be their local politicians they were dealing with and corruption may be held in check better than it is now because people would care if every dollar wasted was a dollar they paid out in taxes (as opposed to the current system where taxes are paid by all 50 states and dispersed out in projects to the various states).

Anyways, the articles are interesting, the picture is a lame argument (too easily forged, show me real dated proof, and a presidential schedule... and at best all it is says is the President is disengenous... doesn't mean he's doing a bad job).
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Suicyco · 2005-09-01 16:07 · Score: 2, Interesting

WTF has the US done for the world other than protect its own interests? I'm not talking about technology, which has nothing to do with the government. I'm talking about the US government's involvement in foreign affairs. List some good things that didn't involve killing people.

The US people are the most complacent, ignorant sheep on the entire planet.

The US was isolationist until the second world war. What has the US done since then? Kill people in vietnam, kill people in korea, kill people in iraq, kill people all over south america, lead the world in prison population per capita, invent nuclear weapons and arm dangerous nations like isreal, etc. etc. The US almost destroyed the friggin PLANET with good old Ronnie and his beef with russia. WTF are you talking about?

What, do you consider "survivor" or "american idol" to be accomplishments?
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 16:23 · Score: 2, Informative

How about these inconsistencies :
"I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees." George W. Bush - August 31, 2005
"The Federal Emergency Management Agency lists a hurricane strike on New Orleans as one of the most dire threats to the nation, up there with a large earthquake in California or a terrorist attack on New York City." Article from National Geographic predicting this exact scenario back in 2004
Now remember Bush appointed a real-estate attorney to head FEMA, instead of someone actually qualified. And this guy, Brown, just blamed the victims for their own problems for not leaving when warned. When in fact he ignores that many don't have resources to leave, many have relatives in critical care in hospitals, many are disabled and cannot leave, etc etc.
No, the government has MUCH to blame for this happening, the war in Iraq being one such diversion of funds and manpower to handle this properly. The other being the administration sitting on their asses until DAYS afterwards to do anything worthwhile.
The buck apparently stops at the president, so then YES, I do blame Bush as being responsibile for just about everything done wrong in the fact of this disaster that could be done.
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Moridineas · 2005-09-01 16:29 · Score: 3, Informative

What has America done? Well, you're clearly not interested in the answer to this question, so I won't even mention the vast amounts of international aid given every year.

I'll just go directly to refute your points. The US people may be many things, but they are neither sheep nor complacent. I'm not sure you understand the meaning of complacent if you call Americans complacement.

Next, the US was by no means isolationist until the second world war. There was a first world war you know? We participated in that too. There was the Marshall plan after WW2 you know--I'd be interested in seeing what Europe today would be without that (you aren't in one of the countries rebuilt by the Marshall plan are you?).

Kill people in Vietnam? After being begged to go in by the Vietnamese... Killed people in Korea? Yes, the UN did go in Korea, you're right. Killed people in Iraq? Yes, the UN did go in Iraq, you're right. Killed people all over South american--of all your criticisms of American foreign policy this is probably the closest to having a point, thoguh i notice you don't blame the communists who funded insurgent rebel groups across the continet for causing bloodshead? Lead the world in prison population per capita? Figures please? Invent nuclear weapons? Yes, we did invent them, as did China, maybe the Germans, the Russians, and others. Your facts are simply wrong if you think the US had anything to do with Israel going nuclear--many of these records are now available, and much of the initial material was actually from Britain. US had no part in the early days of Israel.

The US almost destroyed the planet? Huh, Idon't remember that. You can just as well say the USSR almost destroyed the planet. Either way it's nonsenisical. What Big Ron did was force the USSR to quick economic collapse, that has seen countries frok Georgia to Ukraine to Poland find freedom in the ensuing decade.

Do I consider Survivor or American Idol to be accomplishments? Me personlaly, no? But given the number of people who want American TV worldwide, yes, I would have to. And besides, both of those TV shows derive from British shows, so your ideas are off their too.
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by dedazo · 2005-09-01 16:36 · Score: 2, Insightful

smiling and playing
I suppose you had more information than the president by Tuesday morning about how bad it really all was. You have a crystal ball, right? Tuesday morning even the big news orgs were saying they didn't know what the fuck was happening out there. But by god, the president should have flown to New Orleans with a wetsuit and a shovel the moment the hurricane made landfall. Fuck me, how can we not see that.
budget to handle homeland security
The problem with this stupid argument is that whatever had happened you'd still be trying to make it stick. When it's 9/11, the government new about it and didn't stop it. If it had been a killer tornado that wiped out half of Oklahoma, you'd dig up an article about how the Evil Bush cut funding on research about tornados and prairie dogs -> ergo, Bush is to blame for the effects of the tornado. No, what am I saying - Bush is to blame for the hurricane as well. And if there's an earthquake tomorrow, I'm sure he'll be at fault as well. Because we all know that Bush can predict hurricanes and earthquakes and play guitar while they strike. Because he's evil.
or people closing their eyes to truth
Or retards trying to rationalize blaming things like these on the fucking president of the united states. You are the quintessential bullshit merchant - "the president smirked and played guitar while bodies floated". Praise the lord and pass the ammo. Oh, and here's a picture to prove it. Holy fucking shit.
You and all the million other quack Master Of Conspiracy do nothing but waste bandwidth in a pathetic effort to convince yourselves you're "informing" all of us poor innocent sods that live in denial about Bush's evilness. I suggest that if and when you have something more than some really innovative massaging of timelines and newsbytes to impress, you come back and try again. Until then do us all a favor and shut the fuck up.

--
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Ingolfke · 2005-09-01 16:52 · Score: 2, Insightful

Great article. One thing that is extremely clear from the article is how complex this situation is. We want an easy answer, some are falling on their old stand by which is blame Bush. But that article points out that the projects that were to be put into place were 30 years projects. I think we'll see how things shape up over the next several months... when experts can do real investigation and analysis. Right now people are jumping for anything to place blame or to use this to gain political power.

Bush was either ignorant of the facts (not a surprise considering how much time he had to prepare to assess the situation... but still, he was ignorant of a fact that most of us knew).

As to the government response. It has absolutely been appalling. I think they're trying... and I certainly am not close enough to the situation to understand the complexities... but we've got to do better in the future. Why didn't we have the military there sooner to bring stability? Why don't we drop food/water from planes? What is the long term plan for these people... will we help them with jobs and housing for the next 2+ months while the city is returned to semi-liveable conditions? These are real problems and although I'm still giving FEMA the benefit of the doubt... I think we all have a right to say WTF... we've got to do better.

As to blaming the viticms. I agree that there are certainly a lot of people who couldn't leave and I think that needs to be stressed now and addressed in the future (if you call for an evacuation you should be able to help at-risk people get out of harms way). That said... there are a lot of people who just decided not to go. Those people chose their fates.
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Suicyco · 2005-09-01 17:42 · Score: 2, Informative

Definition of Complacent: Contented to a fault; self-satisfied and unconcerned: He had become complacent after years of success.

US involvement with broad international affairs was not really active until after WWII.

http://www.answers.com/topic/isolationism

The Marshall Plan was enacted BECAUSE europe was totally destroyed in the power play between Britain, the US, Germany and the Soviet Union. The US/Britain conquered Germany, divided up europe with the soviets, and then rebuilt the place. So what? Thats what the winners do in war, rebuild their newly found economic sub-states.

Vietnam? What did that conflict have to do with the United States? It was a country trying to wrestle freedom from the French imperialists. I thought the US supported this. Where did you learn your history anyway?

The Korean conflict was a "police action" fronted by the UN in order to allow the US to send troops without a declaration of war, as called for in our constitution. Again, what threat did this war pose to the United States? Who exactly were we helping? The folks we killed, or the folks who shared our economic ideals?

Umm.. The US leads the world in prison population and has for many years:

http://www.kcl.ac.uk/depsta/rel/icps/worldbrief/hi ghest_to_lowest_rates.html

What "communists" funded the "insurgent rebel groups" in South America? They fought their civil wars with shitty weapons, no funding and little but idealogical support. Fortunately for the US, the fascist despots won most revolutionary wars in south america due to our heavy involvement.

The United States INVENTED nuclear weapons (oh - and used them, btw). China did not. The Russians did not. Something is only invented once you know. Information from the manhatten project filtered into russion hands, which is what fueled their nuke program. China obtained the information in the same way.

Anyway I'm really not interested in arguing this with you. Check out Amnesty International's report on North America:

http://web.amnesty.org/report2005/2am-index-eng

I've had this same tired argument on the internet for over a decade. Do I dig US foreign policy? No. Do I think we are an admirable nation? No. Do I think the US government is evil? Yes. So, there you go. You're not going to convince me otherwise. So go buy your "support the troops" stickers or whatever, and I'll continue to keep saying "NUKE THE TROOPS."
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by revscat · 2005-09-01 17:51 · Score: 3, Insightful

suppose you had more information than the president by Tuesday morning about how bad it really all was. You have a crystal ball, right? Tuesday morning even the big news orgs were saying they didn't know what the fuck was happening out there. But by god, the president should have flown to New Orleans with a wetsuit and a shovel the moment the hurricane made landfall. Fuck me, how can we not see that.
How about this: "Hey Mr. FEMA director, why don't you get some planes with food and water ready. And we'll probably need some troops to maintain order." Sounds REASONABLE to me since that's EXACTLY what previous presidents have done in the exact same situation.
Or retards trying to rationalize blaming things like these on the fucking president of the united states. You are the quintessential bullshit merchant - "the president smirked and played guitar while bodies floated". Praise the lord and pass the ammo. Oh, and here's a picture to prove it. Holy fucking shit.
The President is the head of the federal government. The government's primary purpose is to maintain law and order. They FAILED. Bush failed.
Oh but wait! Are you saying this isn't Bush's fault? That ol' refrain? Why, that shore do bring back memories... of every OTHER massive fuckup we've seen under this president. 9/11? Not his fault! Couldn't see it coming! Massive Iraq resistance movement? Not his fault! Couldn't see it coming! Utter destruction of a major American city? Not his fault! Couldn't see it coming!
Partisan fuck. Bush is a dick. Bush is evil. Keep trying to prop up your god with your mindless Limbaugh Fu. Then do us all a favor and go chew on a shotgun.
Amoral Republicans must die.
Re:Bodies Float -- Bush Smiling, Playing Guitar by Suicyco · 2005-09-01 19:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

The world is full of little 'yous', arguing about how the US is evil because it doesn't do what you think it should and how unfair it all is to everyone else.

I wonder why the world is full these little me's?

Having traveled the globe quite extensively, I can quite assure you, the world is indeed full of these little me's. Quite full.

More info can be found here by Boap · 2005-09-01 15:21 · Score: 4, Informative

You can hear more streams and check out more info here http://wiki.nola-intel.org/index.php/Main_Page

You're an idiot... by benjamindees · 2005-09-01 15:28 · Score: 5, Insightful

Merchandise sitting on shelves (and gas sitting in storage tanks!) does not magically cost the business 3x more.

No, but the merchandise they have to buy to replace that merchandise does.

If a business can't make enough on the merchandise on their shelves to purchase replacements, they go out of business.

Price controls are counter-productive.

--
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by Petrox · 2005-09-01 15:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

why was the evacuation order given only 24 hours in advance? why aren't there airlifts of food and water to people literally starving and dying of thirst? why did Bush wait two days to curtail his cozy vacation to respond to the crisis? why weren't buses used before the storm to bus out those without cars, the elderly, and the sick? why are the police looting and deserting their posts?

government has a role and a government that can't protect its citizens on basic issues of physical security and competence in the face of disaster is a government that doesn't deserve the consent of the governed.

--
sig my booty, check my website

Is anyone else here concerned... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 15:33 · Score: 5, Insightful

About the fact that this was a relatively minor disaster that was experienced and this was how an entire country, the (arguably) richest in the world both in terms of economy and innovation was able to deal with it?

What if we had a larger disaster on our hands such as price/rarity of gas skyrocketing to the point where farmed goods can no longer be delivered in quantity to major metropolitain areas?

As far as the crime situation goes, I can "understand" the looting and mugging, but why the raping? What racial/moral justification is there for that?

I dropped my donation off at the Red Cross for a lack of anything better to do in order to help. My respect goes out to the people risking their ass to get aid to that place.

Maybe I sound tin foil hattish but prior to this hurricane footage, all i was really expecting to see post-hurricane was generic flood photos and cheesy clips of people grabbing TVs from shop windows, not stories of cops siphoning gas from cars for their patrol vehicles and stealing ammo from stores before other people do while "rape gangs" walk around.

Truly a sad day for the human race. Maybe we'll look back on how *we* behaved when we look at other countries and remark about how "uncivilized" they are in the future.

Re:Is anyone else here concerned... by Ironsides · 2005-09-01 18:33 · Score: 2, Insightful

Is anyone else here concerned About the fact that this was a relatively minor disaster that was experienced

You consider a Category 5 Hurricane with levees breaking in a city that is below sea level a "minor disaster"? What would you consider a medium sized disaster? Asteroid impact that takes out an entire city or WW3?

--
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by EzInKy · 2005-09-01 15:40 · Score: 2, Informative

They failed even before it happened:

"..In early 2004, as the cost of the conflict in Iraq soared, President Bush proposed spending less than 20 percent of what the Corps said was needed for Lake Pontchartrain, according to a Feb. 16, 2004, article, in New Orleans CityBusiness.

On June 8, 2004, Walter Maestri, emergency management chief for Jefferson Parish, Louisiana; told the Times-Picayune: "It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay. Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

Also that June, with the 2004 hurricane season starting, the Corps' project manager Al Naomi went before a local agency, the East Jefferson Levee Authority, and essentially begged for $2 million for urgent work that Washington was now unable to pay for. ..."

Guess it's okay though, people still have those tax cuts he gave them.

--
Time is what keeps everything from happening all at once.

Re:Gouging, et al by keraneuology · 2005-09-01 15:43 · Score: 5, Insightful

Merchandise sitting on shelves (and gas sitting in storage tanks!) does not magically cost the business 3x more. Price gouging is illegal for a good reason.

Let's pretend that I own a gas station with a 10,000 gallons of capacity in my underground tanks.

Monday morning, purchase 10,000 gallons of regular unleaded at $1/gallon and pay $10,000. I sell gas at $1.25/gallon to cover overhead, driveoffs, and keep about 2 cents/gallon profit.
Tuesday sees an earthquake take out one of the only two refineries that supplies my area and my wholesaler announces that because of the shortage he will charge $2.50/gallon starting immediately
Check the tanks... I have 8,000 gallons left. A line starts to form because the local news station has announced that there will be a gas shortage and prices will spike.
Decision time.
Option one:
I keep the price of my gas at $1.25 until I run out. I lose no money because that gas is already bought and paid for. At the bottom of my tank I find that I have raked in $12,500 - before paying any other expenses such as insurance, electricity, employee salaries and benefits, taxes and so on. Figuring my two cent/gallon profit I have earned $200 for myself.
But wait! I now need to replace 10,000 gallons of gas which will now cost me $25,000. Even assuming I had free utilities, labor and overhead my last storage tank fillup would only allow me to buy 5,000 gallons of gas. A couple more price hikes and I'll be out of business and nobody will be able to buy gas from me because I'll be closed.
Option two:
I jack the prices up to match what I expect my next delivery will cost so I can keep the tanks full and stay in business. Unfortunately, no matter what I charge I'll never make more than two cents/gallon profit - and that doesn't count all of the people who feel entitled to rip me off because I'm "gouging". Or don't come in and buy my fountain drinks and candy bars which is where 80% of my profits come from.
Yes, I could refrain from "gouging" but a quick failure of the business is a definite certainty.
Anti-gouging laws are one of the sillier things ever supplied by pandering politicians to stupid, demanding citizens. During normal times I can charge $15,000 for a generator and nobody will care because they'll go to Home Depot and buy one for $700. I would be in violation of the law but nobody would care because nobody wants to buy generators. But when the disaster strikes and everybody sells out of $700 generators (which are covered with dust because they sat on the shelves for 2 1/2 years because nobody thought that the designation "hurricane zone" actually meant something") and they see my stock of $15,000 generators (covered in dust because in 10 years nobody except the government wanted to buy my generators at a price so far above market) and I would be the greatest villian in the history of mankind, even if I -lowered- my price from $15,000 to $14,000.
When the supply can't reach where the demand is, then what?

Then you have a shortage. In times of normalcy 100 people are willing to buy a generator at $700 and everybody who wants one gets one. In time of natural disaster 50,000 people want a generator at $700 and 49,999 people are SOL because the first person in line buys all of them then sells all 100 out of the back of his truck for $2,000 each. Just because the government says that generators are only worth $700 doesn't mean that that is what they will be sold for.
The free market is not our savior.

No, but it is what prevents our economy from looking like Cuba (no food is available), Russia (no heating fuel is available) or Canada (9 months of waiting for a mammogram).

--
If the g'vt kept the data on you that google does you'd better believe you'd be calling it "doing evil"

I am disapointed by bogaboga · 2005-09-01 15:45 · Score: 5, Insightful

As an American, I am disappointed and ashamed by what Katrina has exposed. Katrina has shown that America is no different or is even worse than a banana republic when it comes to disasters. One can hardly believe that the scenes exposed in New Orleans are on American soil.

This is why I think we need to take a deeper look at ourselves:

1: We knew Katrina was coming...

2: We knew it was big...really huge and as such, the damage would be enormous...

3: We knew that some residents would not beat the time required to vacate Louisiana, may be because of complacency or the traffic mess...

4: We had numbers of those who had managed to escape. We even knew where they were to be found...

5: We even knew the geography of New Orleans, so we could know where to go and how to get there...

6: We knew much more via satellites...since we take ourselves as being the most advanced country on earth...!

But...

1: There was 100% chaos in Louisiana...

2: ...because we seem to have been caught off guard...!

3: Dead bodies lying on the streets?

4: Desperate people walking in s**t?

5: Looting as if this is Somalia?

6: Despite all this, we have politicians ranting up their rhetoric...heck...folks are dying...all you hear is "we are doing all we can..." And this is AMERICA the great? Can some one tell me how a similar catastrophe would be any different in a third world country?

Re:I am disapointed by bark · 2005-09-01 17:20 · Score: 2, Insightful

you still gotta respect nature though. No matter how great america is, there is always a way for nature to destroy that "human greatness". It's time to take the blinders off our eyes. The Romans had their pompei. America will also have its disasters. It's just the natural order of things.

However, we should be humble enough to say, here are the things that we can, and should do. Recovery efforts are on their way, but I don't think it's fair to say, since America is so great, this will not happen. If the same thing occurs in other countries, third world or first alike, I doubt that things won't be as turbulent. I look upon this distinction between "great america" and "lowly third-worlders" with distaste. We are all human, and people are suffering.
Re:I am disapointed by Ironsides · 2005-09-01 18:53 · Score: 2, Insightful

In this case, however, it seems like their focus was so narrow on rescue and flood maintnence that they ignored that fact that there's no infrastructure to provide for these people. Bussing them hundreds of miles away to other states seems inefficient and will only handle a small percentage of those in need.

A few differences to consider.
In New Orleans or anywhere near it except with generators.
They did not have 3 feet of water in there way everywhere they go.
All the roads weren't knocked out (I think there is 1 highway to there right now).
They could build tent cities near where people lived (in 3 feet of water is not a good place to set up a tent).
They weren't dealing with over a million people that needed to be housed.
Rescuers and aid providers weren't being shot at.

Private companies were running supplies in U-hauls within a week since the military was able to establish some semblance of order (even though people were sitting in their front yards with shotguns to scare off looters).

These people were helping to maintain the order by scaring off the looters. In Louisiana right now the looters are shooting at the rescuers and national gaurdsmen, not the people trying to scare off the looters.

Katrina a day before landfall was quite obvious to be on the order of magnitude of Andrew, and Andrew hit an area that wasn't being kept dry by pumps and levees. The fact that preparations weren't being made before Katrina even made landfall is ridiculous. If the active duty military is scretched too thin because of overseas deployments, the reservists should have been called up before or as Katrina made landfall, and not several days after.

The area Andrew hit in florida wasn't below sea level like New Orleans is. If you're above sea level, the water will run out to sea and you will only have a temporary problem with flooding, not a permanent one.

As for military mobilization? The Louisiana National Guard is under direct control of the Governor of Louisiana. Start with that. Any DoD mobilization would require the Governor to ask for help first and the President to approve it second.

On a logistical side, how do you know what you are going to need before the disaster strikes? You can't always take everything, and if you judge wrong it can take longer as you have to redo what you mobilized for in the first place.

--
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars
Re:I am disapointed by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 19:13 · Score: 2, Insightful

"(The destruction of Tokyo, Berlin, Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagasaki together might add up to about what the gulf coast is experiencing today.)"

I think you need to get some perspective on things. New Orleans and many surrounding towns are fucked up, but just think:

400,000 civilians died either directly or indirectly as a result of the Nagasaki and Hiroshima bombings, and both cities were destroyed - not to mention the ongoing deaths and birth defects caused by radiation exposure;

25-35,000 people died in the Dresden blitz, and the city was mostly (75%) destroyed;

100,000 civilians died as a result of the most famous Tokyo raid (the March 9 & 10, 1945 one) and much of the city was burned to the ground;

and I couldn't quickly find a death toll for Berlin on wikipedia (where I got all of the above info), but I've heard that it was 70% destroyed by the British raids and experienced a subsequent firestorm that was similar to Dresden (an intended result of the particular bomb loads that were used during the raid).

I figure you're American and watching the coverage on CNN or MSNBC or FOX or something, all of which will be (rightly so) showing hour after hour of destruction footage. New Orleans is wrecked, it's terrible, and we're watching those images with you around the world. But remember that what you see and hear will always be hyped up because *even during disasters*, the media has its own agenda. So it's easy to lose perspective and say stupid things like "Hiroshima and Nagasaki and etc etc add up to half of what we're going through" but to do so is not only incorrect, US-centric and thoughtless, but it's also unfair to the hundreds of thousands of people who died in those catastrophes.

It's off-topic but I thought it was important to say so.

Re:first by Anonymous Coward · 2005-09-01 15:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

I second that emotion. You wanna loot food after two days with no food or power? Fine. You wanna loot a plasma TV while babies are dying in the streets because of destroyed infrastructure? Two in the head. The Guard / Feds / Army should all roll in there with kid gloves on, whip out some bullhorns, and give the populace exactly one chance to rally together and start saving some fucking lives. After that, any armed civilians should be given one warning to disarm and pick up a shovel. They say no? Two in the head. Refuse to dig in and help? Two in the ass. Take a shot at the Guard or a rescue chopper? Two in the gut and let them roll around in water that's been filtered through a few hundred dead bodies. Infection and the sun will take them in a day or so, and they'll suffer like they deserve.

Oh, and the fuckers roaming the Dome and raping girls in dark corners? Two in the thighs to shatter bones, one in the gut to promote pain and infection, and a gun butt to the face while they're still conscious, just to let them know why they're being removed from the gene pool.

This is America, but if you want to act like it's Haiti then we'll play by Haiti rules.

(And for all you internet "anarchists" out there, I hope you're on the next bus to NOLA. This is what you wanted, right? They'll just looooooove to see you.)

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by ScentCone · 2005-09-01 15:59 · Score: 3, Insightful

no food, no water, no communication, and no signs of help are heartbreaking and a true tragedy

That would be "no food or water" other than the tons and tons that are being flown and driven in every hour? I'm watching an interview right now with people sitting on top of an overpass eating military MREs (meals-ready-to-eat, as consumed in the thousands by our troops every day) that were just dropped off by a Navy chopper. Their response? That the food is "impossible to eat" since it's cold. Incredible.

No communication or signs of help? They've been flying people out for days now, and bussing thousands to Texas and elsewhere. There are thousands and thousands more to go, and it's not helping that people near hospitals are shooting at and near helicopters and convoys as they try to come in. What the hell sort of wanting help is that?

our government has failed us

By which you mean the City Of New Orleans? They are the ones that have zoned that city so that all of those thousands of people are living below sea level in an area that is guaranteed to be periodically hit by hurricanes. And you make it sound like New Orleans is the only place needing help... 90,000 square miles have been clobbered by this storm, and whole towns in Mississippi and Alabama are completely wrecked, too.

Why the city government in New Orleans has never recommended to people living there, as they watch - for days - a giant hurricane approaching, to do things like put aside drinkable water and several days worth of food... amazing. Or, is it that that advice has been shouted continually, and even louder every hurricane season, and that tens of thousands of people decided they didn't need to be personally accountable for their own food and water for a few days? "The government" didn't fail, here - they're spending $500 million per day scrambling to respond to a multi-state calamity. The failure was at the local level, where individual people weren't prepared.

I don't mean to trivialize the rapid rise of water that led to a lot of people losing their residences. But that's exactly what was predicted in advance, and even at a slow walk, thousands of the able-bodied people that I'm seeing trash stores and mill around shouting at the people trying to help - they could have strolled all the way out of town before the weather and water even hit. If the only people that needed rescue were those that couldn't physically take care of themselves, and didn't have the ability to fill water jugs or put aside some canned food while watching the news all weekend - then there wouldn't be nearly so much trouble right now.

--
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.

Re:WTF, People! by VoidEngineer · 2005-09-01 16:13 · Score: 5, Informative

please. get a dose of reality. he *is* supporting the government/military/Red Cross. he's supporting a data backbone, for christ's sake. have you actually read the damn blog? they're wading through the water setting up links to the city hall. they're coordinating between deisel runs, city hall, and the police force to make sure that people can keep in contact with the outside! do you know what the hell an OC3 even is? for christs sake, get a grip on reality and get over yourself.

he's getting fuel runs because the police precincts are *abandoned*, and his office *isn't*. he's getting fuel runs because his infrastucture is *still intact*. the police and military are helping *him*, because he's got his shit together and is keeping data trunk lines running.

and just for the record, blogging, as a one-to-many means of communication, is the most efficient way that these folks are able to communicate to everybody else. they don't have time to sift through emails and make phone calls, so they're using their blogs as a broadcasting mechanism.

God, I hate self-possessed tards who don't appreciate the work that other people do, and don't know what an OC3 or a metro-area disaster recovery plan is.

for someone with such a low UserID and who, apparently, has been around here for a long time, I'm surprised that you don't understand the importance of keeping telephone lines up in emergency situations.

To any moderators reading, please mod parent post as Troll.

interdictor cutomized Google Map... by Krioni · 2005-09-01 16:15 · Score: 5, Informative

I've started to put together a customized Google Map of interdictor's area:
interdictor map.

I've only got a little on there now, but will add more (like other flood lines, etc) if people send me email with coordinates to gmap AT danREMOVEshockley.com

I've got a simple click-to-find-coordinates map at:
Test Map Coords

--
Lose essential liberties to get temporary safety = get only hassles and security theater.

Survivor Registry by el-spectre · 2005-09-01 16:17 · Score: 3, Informative

If you lost touch with family due to Katrina, please visit:

http://www.survivorregistry.com/

Katrina survivors can leave messages for family, plus we link to several other lost and found sites.

--
"Faith: Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge, of things without parallel." - A.B.

Re:first by Progman2000 · 2005-09-01 16:23 · Score: 4, Interesting

From what I've been told while in Haiti, they wouldn't be quite so generous. :)

Personally I wouldn't mind seeing a pair of AC-130's on "looter patrol". Once word gets around that TV's and 105mm holes are closely related, I'm sure the deadbeats will find something more productive to occupy their time.

Give him a break! by roystgnr · 2005-09-01 16:24 · Score: 4, Funny

Do you know how hard it is to find a fiddle on such short notice?

Old News - More Current References by rm3friskerFTN · 2005-09-01 16:32 · Score: 4, Insightful

Some historical background - "everyone" knew the hurricane with New Orleans written on it was coming:

October 2004 National Geographic Article about New Orleans getting whacked ... btw this site has been Drudged as opposed to Slashdot'd

October 2001 Scientific American article about New Orleans getting whacked

Informed discussion over at Belmont Club Blog

An obscure blog describes the hurricane's impact on YOU in Anywhere USA before the hurrican ever made landfall:

Most people have never heard of Port Fourchon, but it is the nation's premiere oil and gas support services facility--and right now it lies within 12 miles of Hurricane Katrina's CAT-3 or CAT-4 bullseye. Over 600 platforms and 75% of the Gulf's deepwater projects lie within a 40-mile radius of Port Fourchon. Unfortunately, Port Fourchon is a Louisiana island. An island that is connected to the mainland by a single two lane bridge...an old, single two lane bridge. This bridge is the only means of getting cargo and supplies to the Port. More than 1,000 cargo trucks go across this bridge each day, delivering materials to the Port for Outer Continental Shelf (OCS) drilling rigs. If there's no bridge, there're no drilling parts and supplies.

Perhaps this all means we can look forward to the next MikeMoore film proving that the "Bush Hitler Haliburton Rove Puppet Yale C Student Same As John Kerry" caused the hurricane.

--

I believe Juanita

Re:Old News - More Current References by rm3friskerFTN · 2005-09-01 16:51 · Score: 2, Interesting

Some social perspective on New Orleans over at City Journal ... perhaps America's "Almost Third World" City got whacked and we are watching Somila occur???
The truth is that even on a normal day, New Orleans is a sad city. Sure, tourists think New Orleans is fun: you can drink and hop from strip club to strip club all night on Bourbon Street, and gamble all your money away at Harrah's. But the city's decline over the past three decades has left it impoverished and lacking the resources to build its economy from within. New Orleans can't take care of itself even when it is not 80 percent underwater; what is it going to do now, as waters continue to cripple it, and thousands of looters systematically destroy what Katrina left unscathed?
A city blessed with robust, professional police and fire forces, with capable government leaders, an informed citizenry, and a relatively resilient economy can overcome catastrophe, but it doesn't emerge stronger: look at New York after 9/11. The richest big city in the country in more ways than one mustered every ounce of energy to clean up after 9/11 and to rebuild its economy and its downtown--but even so, competing special interests overcame citizens' and officials' best intentions. Ground Zero remains a hole, and New York, for all its resources, finds itself diminished, physically and economically, four years on.
In New Orleans, the recovery will be much, much harder. The city's government has long suffered from incompetence and corruption. Just weeks before Katrina, federal officials indicted associates of the former mayor, Marc Morial, for alleged kickbacks and contract fraud. Morial did nothing to attract diversified private investment to his impoverished city during the greatest economic boom of the modern era.

--
I believe Juanita

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by afidel · 2005-09-01 16:35 · Score: 4, Interesting

Yeah, on Sat when they were predicting a possible direct Category 5 strike directly on New Orleans I would have assumed that the federal government would be mobilizing the troops (literally and figurativly). For instance we sent in ships to act as desalination plants in the wake of the tsunami last winter but it took till 3 days after the hurricane for the aircraft carrier to leave New York. IMHO it should have been stationed at a southern port along the Atlantic ready to raise anchor as soon as the danger had passed. Taking over half the time that it takes for people to die of thirst to even freaking start heading towards them is just assanine! I think the scariest thing about this whole thing is that it shows how absolutly uprepared we are as a nation even after we have plowed billions and billions into disaster preperation under the banner of homeland security. If we can't deal with a natural disaster how can we possibly deal with the worst that a well funded and intelligent group of humans can do?

--
There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.

THIS IS NOT libertarianism by SonicSpike · 2005-09-01 16:38 · Score: 5, Informative

This is NOT libertarianism!

THIS IS ANARCHY in the city! NOTHING LESS.
ANARCHY ANARCHY ANARCHY!

According to http://www.m-w.com/ Anarachy:
1 a : absence of government b : a state of lawlessness or political disorder due to the absence of governmental authority

Libertarianism involves a civilized society. I am sure you can Google to find lots of books and essays on the subject. But a few requirements for libertarianism:
- LIMITED government (not non-existant)
- free markets
- personal responsibility
- individual freedoms

The main philosophy behind libertarianism is 'your rights go so far until they impede on other people's rights"

DO NOT spread misinformation like this; it is iresponsible, and ignorant!

--
Libertas in infinitum

Re:Gouging, et al by kfg · 2005-09-01 16:39 · Score: 2, Insightful

I would be in violation of the law but nobody would care. . .

No, you wouldn't be, because nobody would care. Normally what price you ask for generators is entirely up to you, just so long as you pay the applicable taxes on any sales you do manage to make.

And yet the price that Home Depot decides to charge for a generator is determined in exactly the same manner as "price gouging" prices are.

A)What do we have to pay to get another one? B)What can we sell the one we have for?

Make A as small as possible, make B as large as possible. Sometimes making B larger actually results in more sales (see the argument that people don't use free software because it's free).

The last time we had a generator shortage near me I had a truck sitting empty and local stores full of generators, but I could not move those generators to the people who needed them because I would have gone broke at the emergency price caps. It costs more to move emergency goods and the cost of moving goods is part of the perfectly legitimate price of those goods.

So people with money that was doing them no good under the circumstances, because they couldn't spend it on the things they needed, frickin' froze, some of them to death.

But hey, at least they died on a pile of cash, eh?

KFG

Mirror of pictures from DirectNIC & sigmund.bi by kingradar · 2005-09-01 16:40 · Score: 4, Informative

Several hundred megabytes of pictures from sigmund.biz, taken in the disaster zone by Mike and his team at DirectNIC have been mirrored to:

http://www.nerdshack.com/katrina/

/. away. Sits atop four GigE, and a load balanced www cluster. If anyone else needs a mirror of Katrina content, let us know.

Re:Gouging, et al by Mnemia · 2005-09-01 16:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

No need for "ethics". The price drop will be governed by what the market will bear. If your competitors start trying to take your business by lowering their prices, then you will have to as well. The "problem" you are suggesting doesn't exist except in the minds of people who think they are continually being screwed or that haven't taken a basic economics course.

Supply and demand regulates things quite nicely if allowed to. Price controls prevent necessary corrections from taking place (eg: people should be conserving gas at the moment, but instead they are draining all the stations. This is because the stations are not allowed to raise prices to levels that will reduce demand to only what people truly require).

What a DISGRACE by ZosX · 2005-09-01 16:45 · Score: 2

The president take time off of vacation to play guitar in a jovial mood while the nation faces the worst natural disaster in history? Congress talks about ending their recess early? Glad that the feds are looking out for the thousands dead and dying in the big easy!

Check out some sad reports I've read today.

--

FROM CNN:

FEMA chief: Victims bear some responsibility
Brown pleased with effort: 'Things are going relatively well'

Friday, September 2, 2005 Posted: 0341 GMT (1141 HKT)

(CNN) -- The director of the Federal Emergency Management Agency said Thursday those New Orleans residents who chose not to heed warnings to evacuate before Hurricane Katrina bear some responsibility for their fates.

Michael Brown also agreed with other public officials that the death toll in the city could reach into the thousands.

"Unfortunately, that's going to be attributable a lot to people who did not heed the advance warnings," Brown told CNN.

"I don't make judgments about why people chose not to leave but, you know, there was a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans," he said.

"And to find people still there is just heart-wrenching to me because, you know, the mayor did everything he could to get them out of there.

"So, we've got to figure out some way to convince people that whenever warnings go out it's for their own good," Brown said. "Now, I don't want to second guess why they did that. My job now is to get relief to them."

Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Babineaux Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin have both predicted the death toll could be in the thousands.

Nagin issued a "desperate SOS" Thursday as violence disrupted efforts to rescue people still trapped in the flooded city and evacuate thousands of displaced residents living amid corpses and human waste. (Full story)

Residents expressed growing frustration with the disorder evident on the streets, raising questions about the coordination and timeliness of relief efforts. (See video on the desperate conditions -- 4:36 )

Sniper fire prevented Charity Hospital from evacuating its patients Thursday. The hospital has no electricity or water, food consists of a few cans of vegetables, and the patients had to be moved to upper floors because of looters. (Full story) (See video of a city sinking in chaos -- 2:54)

Brown was upbeat in his assessment of the relief effort so far, ticking off a list of accomplishments: more than 30,000 National Guard troops will be in the city within three days, the hospitals are being evacuated and search and rescue missions are continuing. (See video of National Guard efforts to rein in violence -- 3:14)

"Considering the dire circumstances that we have in New Orleans -- virtually a city that has been destroyed -- that things are going relatively well," Brown said.

Nevertheless, he said he could "empathize with those in miserable conditions."

Asked later on CNN how he could blame the victims, many of whom could not flee the storm because they had no transportation or were too frail to evacuate on their own, Brown said he was not blaming anyone.

"Now is not the time to be blaming," Brown said. "Now is the time to recognize that whether they chose to evacuate or chose not to evacuate, we have to help them."

Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu of Louisiana, whose father was a longtime New Orleans mayor, said there was "plenty of blame to go around," citing underinvestement by federal authorities over many years "despite pleas and warnings by officials."

Earlier on CNN, Brown was asked why authorities had not prepared for just such a catastrophe -- given that the levees were designed to withstand only a Category 3 hurricane and Katrina was stronger than that.

"Government officials and engineers will debate that and figure that out," he replied. "Right now, I'm trying to focus on saving lives. I think we should have that debate

--
zosxavius photography

Re:Gouging, et al by msuarezalvarez · 2005-09-01 16:46 · Score: 2, Insightful

No, but it is what prevents our economy from looking like Cuba (no food is available), Russia (no heating fuel is available) or Canada (9 months of waiting for a mammogram).

Well, you might want to consider, too, the effects of not having a huge overpowerful country sitting beside you and being as annoying as it can because it does not like the way you at some point decided you wanted to be organized. You could really look into history to see where did the heating fuel actually go in Russia, and you could ask the average Canadian how much the idea of going under the auspices of the USian health system looks to him.

Hmm. Or you could simply look out of the little box you are in...

pictures mirror by iphyxius · 2005-09-01 16:46 · Score: 2, Informative

I have made a mirror for his images since his server is unresponsive at times due to the heavy load. http://gallery.bdubois.com/

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN PLEASE by linguae · 2005-09-01 16:52 · Score: 3, Informative

I don't think you understand the word libertarian. Libertarianism != anarchy (complete lack of rule). Libertarians don't believe in raiding high ground or infrastructure, and they don't believe in slavery (they believe it is a violation of one's freedom; remember, libertarianism has the philosophy of freedom and of non-coercion). And many libertarians have the heart to rescue innocent people for no charge.

I don't know what you've been taught about libertarianism, but somebody must have taught you that all libertarians are cold, apathetic, greedy, and selfish individuals. That's not true. Many libertarians support helping others, and many libertarians are filling the government's shoes and helping donate to Red Cross and other organizations. (Libertarians love private charity). I wish that the local, state, and federal governments (especially the local and state governments) had a more active role in providing these citizens food and water. It doesn't help to be in a huge shelter if you're going to die of dehydration. (And, yes, I'm a libertarian. Whaddo'ya know, a Libertarian who supports pinko commie ideas like giving food and water to displaced citizens. Who would've thought....) What you are seeing in the streets of New Orleans isn't representative of libertarianism at all. You're seeing almost pure anarchy.

Homeland Security turns out to be incompetent by Animats · 2005-09-01 17:03 · Score: 5, Insightful

This is the first big test for the Department of Homeland Security. They flunked. With $80 billion a year going into "homeland security", it turns out that, three days after the event, DHS can't even get enough security troops into New Orleans to secure the hospitals, the convention center, and the Superdome. DHS secretary Chertoff has no clue; when interviewed, it was clear he knew less than the average CNN viewer.

Disaster stockpiles don't seem to have been in place in New Orleans, even for the cheap stuff. A shipping container of water purification tablets would have been a huge help. Nobody seems to have thought to equip the Superdome, the designated disaster assembly point, with some basic water purification gear.

Congress and the voters need to ask some hard questions about where all that money goes and whether it's being spent properly.

Re:Homeland Security turns out to be incompetent by meringuoid · 2005-09-02 04:41 · Score: 3, Interesting

Mmm. DHS was set up to, what, deal with the 'terrorist threat'?
OK. Let's suppose the worst nightmare comes true, the one the neocons keep telling us is such a realistic threat, the terrorists detonate a real live nuke in a city.
Well, then, we're stuffed, aren't we? Clearly they can't handle a flooded city even when given several days' warning. So if some sod manages to cause comparable damage with a bomb, with no warning...
I'm feeling really safe, aren't you?

--
Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by Panaflex · 2005-09-01 17:12 · Score: 4, Insightful

You deserve a real big smack man..

1. These people, if they were able, probably DID put aside food and water. Which is now trapped under 9-20 feet of water in their houses.

2. There is only 1 road out of New orleans right now, and it's DANGEROUS to walk around. It's also on the opposite side of the most affected parts of the city. Put another way.. would you stroll through this with your kids? I'd wait for an escort with guns, thank you.

3. It is essential to get people moved out within 48-72 hours of a disaster. After that, the shock of loosing everything you own wears out and you go into survival mode.

3. These buses are driving right past thousands of people. Today was the first day that any serious evacuation was happening.

I'm not excusing the behaviour of NOLA people - but I understand it. There's looting, rape and murder happening - at the shelters. 60% of the NOLA police force quite because there's no command/control.

Most people got clean WATER for the first time since Monday. Even at the Superdome.

If I were FEMA last Tuesday:
1. Get school busses and get accessible people out now. Sort them somewhere else and reduce the need to ship in food. There should be armed escorts getting these people out. They should be swathing the city eastward so they can make effective use of the manpower instead of diluting it.

2. Evacuate all hospitals. Call in every ambulance you can and fly them out of Baton Rouge.

3. Air-drop food and water all over the city. Hell, have the coast guard drop food around as they're going to rescue survivors. It took 4 days to get those "tons and tons" into the city.

They didn't do that. Instead they:
1. Advised everyone to gather at central locations.. and instantly had supply issues because there's only one friggin road into town.

2. They thought they could fix a 500' levee of MOVING water in 24 hours. Huh?

3. The advised people to evacuate, but didn't coordinate escorts with the National Guard they had.

4. The police were overwhelmed. Many of them didn't even hear that they were under martial law! The city government left town leaving people with no knowledge of the city to coordinate the effort.

It's just totally wrong. Even an 8 year old could figure it out. If you've got limited access you're not going to be able to provide needed services.

FEMA gets billions of dollars to figure this out and completely botched it. Now they're complaining that people are shooting at them, which is wrong, but these people are mentally in survivor mode and if you don't have food or water then you don't matter.

--
I said no... but I missed and it came out yes.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by revscat · 2005-09-01 17:12 · Score: 2, Insightful

Great. Now, what if you have one or more kids? Or you are elderly or otherwise incapable of normal movement?

News flash: Many, many people have young children. With 48 hours notice, walking is not an option.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by ScentCone · 2005-09-01 17:16 · Score: 2, Insightful

why was the evacuation order given only 24 hours in advance?

Recommendations to get out of town started days before that. Not that it should have mattered - the people that live their entire lives below sea level on a coast that is regularly scheduled to have hurricanes hit every year - they've got no excuses not to know that water flows downhill. But the voluntary evac announcement came before that, and the mandatory one (ignored by tens of thousands) still came in plenty of time for people to even walk out of the low lying areas if they cared to.

why aren't there airlifts of food and water to people literally starving and dying of thirst?

There are. There have been since the first day, and tons of food and water have been being driven and flow in every day. They are running into problems, though. In one place, they couldn't even put the the helicopter because people were too dumb not to crowd directly under a descending aircraft. After several attempts, they had to just heave the supplies out to people from 10 feet in the air. Other people are getting huge piles of military rations (and actually complaining to TV reporters that the food is no good because it's "cold" - the same way that thousands of military personnel eat it every day). And, of course, the 10,000+ that are now sleeping in cots in Texas, with showers, hot food, water, communications - they'd probably disagree that they're not getting supplies. They've been brought to the supplies, and it's continuing non-stop, 24x7.

why did Bush wait two days to curtail his cozy vacation to respond to the crisis?

Are you really so desperate to score political points in the middle of this that you're willing to pretend you don't know what a presidential "vacation" is like? Everything - everything - that a president can and has to do follow him wherever he goes. Complete communications, briefings throughout the day, reports to read, findings to authorize, press briefings, and C-in-C duties that occupy much of every day. Just as true of Bill Clinton while he wiled away his time in the Hamptons with his show-biz buddies as it was for Jimmy Carter, or for Bush today. "Curtailing" his vacation just means changing the location where his teleconferences take place - the job is full time, 365 days a year.

why weren't buses used before the storm to bus out those without cars, the elderly, and the sick?

That would be a question for the local government in the city. Many civic organizations, churches, families, and companies did bus their people out of town.

why are the police looting and deserting their posts?

Because you're choosing to call it that. Lacking communications gear in many areas, the city police have no "posts" - they are tasked with using their own professional judgement about how they can be the most useful. In many cases, that's proving to be responding to bogus reports of conflicts, or having to report to real conflicts, such as where people are carjacking ambulances or taking pot shots at rescuers in boats and choppers. As for "looting," they are deliberately removing guns and ammo from sporting goods stores and other repositories, and arranging to haul out the safes that pharmacists use to store narcotics. In order for the cops to continue to function at all, they are comandeering vehicles, fuel, and other tools they need. They wouldn't have so much to do if some residents of the city weren't using this opportunity to roam the streets in gangs causing incredible distractions from the work of saving vulnerable people.

government has a role and a government that can't protect its citizens on basic issues of physical security and competence in the face of disaster is a government that doesn't deserve the consent of the governed.

So, when your neighbor's house burns down, or your whole block is destroyed by a tornado... has your government failed y

--
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.

Re:Gouging, et al by Pyrion · 2005-09-01 17:23 · Score: 2, Interesting

The moral of the story is that price gouging laws are not there to protect the consumer from getting gouged. They are there to prevent civil unrest. If you tell people you have the last ten and you have ten + 90 hidden in the back and you charge an exorbitant fee for each generator, and a riot ensues, you're directly responsible for creating the conditions that instigated the riot.

--
"There is much pleasure to be gained from useless knowledge." - Bertrand Russell.

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN PLEASE by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-09-01 17:26 · Score: 2, Interesting

Libertarians don't believe in raiding high ground or infrastructure, and they don't believe in slavery (they believe it is a violation of one's freedom; remember, libertarianism has the philosophy of freedom and of non-coercion).

While I understand that to be the philosophy, it is also my understanding that when applied to real life, those things I mentioned would be the outcome, as most Libertarians I spoke to are of a belief that free-market economics is a form of a religion and therefore flawless and universally applicable with no checks or balances. The resulting monopolies and concentration of wealth would quickly create some sort of corporate-feudal warlord society. Slavery would not be far behind. This has little to do with the ideals of Libertarianism, very much so as ideals of Marxism had very little to do with the Soviet Union or Mao's China. They were merely an ill-coceived system of concepts ripe to be abused in order to sieze power by some.

but somebody must have taught you that all libertarians are cold, apathetic, greedy, and selfish individuals.

Err, it was my personal experience with them which lead me to that conclusiom. Curiously enough, you and the other poster on this thread are apparently of a different variety, at least at the first glance.

Many libertarians support helping others, and many libertarians are filling the government's shoes and helping donate to Red Cross and other organizations. (Libertarians love private charity).

The arguments I had in the past were revolving around the contention that charity was all that was needed and the governments should butt out, partially because the proper size of a government are the dimentions of a telephone booth. Or something to that effect.

What I would do... by SonicSpike · 2005-09-01 17:39 · Score: 3, Interesting

If I were in charge here is what I would do:

1) Declare marshall law; put the military in charge

2) Drop paratroopers to secure sites for coming supply drops

3) Do air drops of food and medical supplies (water too)

4) Send in the SEALS with their dingy boats to begin to rescue people/pick off snipers/gangs

5) Send in forward air controllers and ham radio operators- by parachute if needed. I would include military medics as well.

6) Commondere every single bus in the state of Texas, LA, MS, AL and AR and move into the city heavily fortified by military support

7) Use 2 aircraft carriers, park them as close to the city as possible. AC#1 gets used as military command and HQ. AC#2 is used to put evacuaees aboard for food/shelter. If AC#2 isn't available commondere a cruise ship and use it.

Asking for British, Canadian, and Mexican forces to lend a hand is a good idea as well. This might mean major withdrawl from Iraq which would worsen the situation over there but free up resources here. However when faced with helping fellow Americans or keeping the stability of a foreign country (which is close to being on its own feet anyway) I would personally choose American lives over Iraqis.

Drastic times call for drastic measures.

THERE IS NO EXCUSE for the current situation and a severe leadership AND communication void exists. This scenerio is NOT being managed in the right way and once this is over I want to see several independent and congressional studies as to what the breakdown was.

As of noon, the media had more information about happinings inside the city than the FEMA director did! He didn't even know about the situation near the convention center until the media told him. It appears the media is closer and better informed of this situation than is the government. The CIA often uses the media as secondary source of intelligence. Most of the time I would disagree, but in this instance I would suggest that the authorities follow that lead and begin to pay attention to the media outlets as it appears they are able to get information in and out.

DISCLAIMER:
I realize I am not in charge and being a Monday morning/arm chair quarterback is not accomplishing anything but I feel the need to share my thoughts and vent nonetheless.

Feel free to post your input/comments. If you disagree with me that is fine but please be polite about it or I won't respond to your post

--
Libertas in infinitum

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by revscat · 2005-09-01 17:43 · Score: 4, Insightful

Then, why, WHY have they chosen to give birth to, and raise kids while living below sea level in the path of recurring hurricanes that happen every year like clockwork? Every year? When was the last time a hurricane hit New Orleans? When was the last time ANYTHING like this happened?

But fuck, keep blaming the victims. Don't you feel better about yourself now? You're so smart. So good. Why, tragedy beyond your wildest expectations or control would NEVER happen to you.

People are DEAD. People are being RAPED. There are infants dying in the fucking streets and your focus is on blaming them, their parents. For all you know their parents DID stock up. But guess what? Their houses are now under nine feet of water. It is the government's JOB to maintain law and order, and they.. have.. FAILED.

Getting People Out vs Sending Aid In by KidSock · 2005-09-01 17:46 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is a little OT but I don't understand why officials are trying to send aid INTO the city as opposed to getting PEOPLE OUT. The whole place is a biohazard and must be completely evacuated minus engineers and health officials. If they do not do this perfectly healthy people are going to start dying in droves. They should be putting people on anything with wheels and sending them tent cities 20 miles out of town. I've heard nothing along these lines in the media. Can someone exaplain that to me?

Re:Getting People Out vs Sending Aid In by LordLucless · 2005-09-02 00:47 · Score: 2, Insightful

Because it's a damn sight easier to drop in supplies than bus out people? How exactly are they supposed to get people out? By helicopter? By busses driving through flooded streets? By small boats puttering around the flooded streets? Not to mention that the current unrest makes any of these up-close solutions hazardous. How many people can you evactuate in an hour in that situation? Contrast this to how many people could be serviced by air-dropped supplies in an hour.

The first priority is to make sure people are in no immediate danger, such as starvation or dehydration. The air drops service this. Once the immediate danger is somewhat satisfied, then you can focus on the harder, longer and more arduous task of evacuation.

--
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by revscat · 2005-09-01 17:55 · Score: 3, Insightful

Thank YOU. I'm not a big fan of libertarianism (see my sig) but by God I'm going to give you mad props for a reasonable and insightful post. The *fundamental* job of the government is to maintain law and order. Without it, man naturally descends into anarchy and chaos, as we are seeing stark proof of now. If the government cannot of will not prevent such chaos then it has failed at its most fundamental responsibilities.

Re:Gouging, et al by randyest · 2005-09-01 18:04 · Score: 2, Interesting

Many Canadians come to the US for life-saving health care rather than wait for their needed tratments in their socialized "universal healthcare" system. How's your little box working out for you?

--
everything in moderation

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by ugmoe · 2005-09-01 18:10 · Score: 2, Interesting

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:wE7Dn7WQ_9kJ:ww w.thewmurchannel.com/hurricanes/4887230/detail.htm l+new+orleans+%2Bmayor+evacuation+%2Bdinner+%2Bsun day+%2Bsaturday&hl=en

According to the Louisiana governor: "Blanco said President George W. Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."

But the Mayor had to sleep on it on start the evacuation the next morning:

http://weblog.sinteur.com/?m=20050828 In an interview on Eyewitness News, Nagin said his Saturday night dinner was interrupted by an urgent call from Governor Kathleen Blanco who asked Nagin to call the Hurricane Center.

Nagin said he would consider ordering evacuations by Sunday morning and may employ buses and trains to help get people out of the city.

The mayor needed his sleep by ugmoe · 2005-09-01 18:15 · Score: 2, Informative

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:wE7Dn7WQ_9kJ:ww w.thewmurchannel.com/hurricanes/4887230/detail.htm l+new+orleans+%2Bmayor+evacuation+%2Bdinner+%2Bsun day+%2Bsaturday&hl=en

According to the Louisiana governor: "Blanco said President George W. Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding."

But the Mayor had to sleep on it on start the evacuation the next morning:

http://weblog.sinteur.com/?m=20050828

In an interview on Eyewitness News, Nagin said his Saturday night dinner was interrupted by an urgent call from Governor Kathleen Blanco who asked Nagin to call the Hurricane Center.

Nagin said he would consider ordering evacuations by Sunday morning and may employ buses and trains to help get people out of the city.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by learn+fast · 2005-09-01 18:31 · Score: 2, Informative

Last year, FEMA spent $250,000 to conduct an eight-day hurricane drill for a mock killer storm hitting New Orleans. Some 250 emergency officials attended. Many of the scenarios now playing out, including a helicopter evacuation of the Superdome, were discussed in that drill for a fictional storm named Pam.

This year, the group was to design a plan to fix such unresolved problems as evacuating sick and injured people from the Superdome and housing tens of thousands of stranded citizens.

Funding for that planning was cut, said Tolbert, the former FEMA disaster response director.

"A lot of good was done, but it just wasn't finished," said Tolbert, who was the disaster chief for the state of North Carolina. "I don't know if it would have saved more lives. It would have made the response faster. You might say it would have saved lives."

FEMA wasn't alone in cutting hurricane spending in New Orleans and the surrounding area.

Federal flood control spending for southeastern Louisiana has been chopped from $69 million in 2001 to $36.5 million in 2005, according to budget documents. Federal hurricane protection for the Lake Pontchartrain vicinity in the Army Corps of Engineers' budget dropped from $14.25 million in 2002 to $5.7 million this year. Louisiana Democratic Sen. Mary Landrieu requested $27 million this year.

Both the New Orleans Times-Picayune newspaper and a local business magazine reported that the effects of the budget cuts at the Army Corps of Engineers were severe.

In 2004, the Corps essentially stopped major work on the now-breached levee system that had protected New Orleans from flooding. It was the first such stoppage in 37 years, the Times-Picayune reported.

"It appears that the money has been moved in the president's budget to handle homeland security and the war in Iraq, and I suppose that's the price we pay," Jefferson Parish emergency management chief Walter Maestri told the newspaper. "Nobody locally is happy that the levees can't be finished, and we are doing everything we can to make the case that this is a security issue for us."

The Army Corps' New Orleans office, facing a $71 million cut, also eliminated funds to pay for a study on how to protect the Crescent City from a Category 5 storm, New Orleans City Business reported in June.

Being prepared for a disaster is basic emergency management, disaster experts say.

For example, in the 1990s, in planning for a New Orleans nightmare scenario, the federal government figured it would pre-deploy nearby ships with pumps to remove water from the below-sea-level city and have hospital ships nearby, said James Lee Witt, who was FEMA director under President Clinton.

Federal officials said a hospital ship would leave from Baltimore on Friday.

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/1252823 3.htm

But the good news is that Congress was able to secure $24 billion (not a typo) in pork barrel projects in the last transportation bill a few weeks ago, including Sen. Don Young's $250 million bridges to uninhabited islands in Alaska.

Re:Gouging, et al by Rahga · 2005-09-01 18:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

Ah, yes.... gimmie gimmie gimmie, cuz I deserve it!

I'm not so foolish to forget that once upon a time, there were no such things as hospitals, housing plans, and fossil fuels. All of these, without exception, are luxuries, and in my opinion, not really worth regulating. They are merely the creations of society, people working together, and have generally benefited the most through those that embrace both personal altruism and and capitalism. When you get right down to it, if some massive horrible event or a simple energy crisis completely destroys the modern incarnations of health care, transportation, and employment, the world will keep on turning.

Regulating healthcare, energy prices, and employment the way you seem to suggest is a bit like building levees around the Mississippi and draining the Lousiana wetlands. Sure, there may be some short term good, but sooner or later... usually sooner... it's all going to break down.

Eventually, the world may get to a point where the hospital is a relic of an overpopulated and wealthy planet, horses will again become a primary means of transportaion, and out old people will start dying earlier. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just a bit different and a bit more inconvenient.

As seen in the Wall Street Journal, Holman Jenkins:

Nobody knows how mankind will meet its long-term energy needs -- nor should we expect anyone to. We didn't rely on clairvoyance and planning to build a civilization on hydrocarbons, but on market systems that adapt to whatever reality confronts them.

"The Real News" by cyranoVR · 2005-09-01 18:47 · Score: 5, Informative

This is the entry that made my jaw hit the floor:

THE REAL NEWS
The following is the result of an interview I just conducted via cell phone with a New Orleans citizen stranded at the Convention Center. I don't know what you're hearing in the mainstream media or in the press conferences from the city and state officials, but here is the truth:

"Bigfoot" is a bar manager and DJ on Bourbon Street, and is a local personality and icon in the city. He is a lifelong resident of the city, born and raised. He rode out the storm itself in the Iberville Projects because he knew he would be above any flood waters. Here is his story as told to me moments ago. I took notes while he talked and then I asked some questions:

Three days ago, police and national guard troops told citizens to head toward the Crescent City Connection Bridge to await transportation out of the area. The citizens trekked over to the Convention Center and waited for the buses which they were told would take them to Houston or Alabama or somewhere else, out of this area. It's been 3 days, and the buses have yet to appear. Although obviously he has no exact count, he estimates more than 10,000 people are packed into and around and outside the convention center still waiting for the buses. They had no food, no water, and no medicine for the last three days, until today, when the National Guard drove over the bridge above them, and tossed out supplies over the side crashing down to the ground below. Much of the supplies were destroyed from the drop. Many people tried to catch the supplies to protect them before they hit the ground. Some offered to walk all the way around up the bridge and bring the supplies down, but any attempt to approach the police or national guard resulted in weapons being aimed at them. There are many infants and elderly people among them, as well as many people who were injured jumping out of windows to escape flood water and the like -- all of them in dire straights. Any attempt to flag down police results in being told to get away at gunpoint. Hour after hour they watch buses pass by filled with people from other areas. Tensions are very high, and there has been at least one murder and several fights. 8 or 9 dead people have been stored in a freezer in the area, and 2 of these dead people are kids. The people are so desperate that they're doing anything they can think of to impress the authorities enough to bring some buses. These things include standing in single file lines with the eldery in front, women and children next; sweeping up the area and cleaning the windows and anything else that would show the people are not barbarians. The buses never stop. Before the supplies were pitched off the bridge today, people had to break into buildings in the area to try to find food and water for their families. There was not enough. This spurred many families to break into cars to try to escape the city. There was no police response to the auto thefts until the mob reached the rich area -- Saulet Condos -- once they tried to get cars from there... well then the whole swat teams began showing up with rifles pointed. Snipers got on the roof and told people to get back. He reports that the conditions are horrendous. Heat, mosquitoes and utter misery. The smell, he says, is "horrific." He says it's the slowest mandatory evacuation ever, and he wants to know why they were told to go to the Convention Center area in the first place; furthermore, he reports that many of them with cell phones have contacts willing to come rescue them, but people are not being allowed through to pick them up.

Re:Suggested Plan of Action by Ironsides · 2005-09-01 19:31 · Score: 3, Insightful

1) Declare marshall law; put the military in charge

Last I heard, martial law was declared. However, you do NOT want to put the military in charge and the military generally does not want to be in charge of a situation like this. Leave FEMA in charge like their charter is set up for and just have them give tasks to the military.

2) Drop paratroopers to secure sites for coming supply drops

Paratroopers would probably break their leggs coming down in some of those areas. Either that or be close to drowning in others.

3) Do air drops of food and medical supplies (water too)

Already being done or trying to be done.

4) Send in the SEALS with their dingy boats to begin to rescue people/pick off snipers/gangs.

Those boats don't hold many besides the seals, recruit all the people from the LA Bayou to do the rescuing (being done) and have the seals take out the idiots shooting at people.

5) Send in forward air controllers and ham radio operators- by parachute if needed. I would include military medics as well.

What would air controllers be able to do? hams? don't need them, just satelite phones or something similar. No need for licensed civialians that are good for nothing else. Medics? should already be on their way. However, there are a lot more civilian ones than military ones already on hand.

6) Commondere every single bus in the state of Texas, LA, MS, AL and AR and move into the city heavily fortified by military support

Aside from those other states still needing them, and some pesky 4th ammendment issues, it is also a case of being able to get the busses to the people or the people to the busses. It's not easy driving a bus through 3 feet of water. Also, at 60 people/bus, over 100,000 people (not sure how many still in the evacuation area) you would need over 2,000 bus trips. Drivers for the busses and a place to put the people afterwards along with food. Also, don't bother with the military escorts, just find a safe area that doesn't need a route to be guarded and get the busses and people there. Will take up much less resources and anyone who can be guarding can be used to keep order in other areas.

7) Use 2 aircraft carriers, park them as close to the city as possible. AC#1 gets used as military command and HQ. AC#2 is used to put evacuaees aboard for food/shelter. If AC#2 isn't available commondere a cruise ship and use it.

Much better to use a land HQ as HQ is then closer to the reports. Probably a few other advantages as well. As for putting evacuees on a Carrier? Not unless it is absolutely necessary. You would have to make sure none try to get near any ammo or restricted sections of the ship. Easier said than done. A Carrier holds ~5k people as is. When you "trust" everyone it works fairly well. Start adding random people, some of which who would probably try to break into a weapons locker (at the least) or try to cause some damage to the ship (at the worst, remember they have several nuclear reactors as a power source). Best use for the carriers is desalinzation of water and relay of food. But keep civilians that you can't necessarily trust off it.

Asking for British, Canadian, and Mexican forces to lend a hand is a good idea as well.

British and Canadian are fine, they all speak english and I'm prety sure I can trust them. Mexican forces probably do not and given some of the problems I have heard about I am not sure I would trust them.

This scenerio is NOT being managed in the right way and once this is over I want to see several independent and congressional studies as to what the breakdown was.

No one ever gets it right the first time (I don't remember something like thise happening to a city before). Nor do I a population of a million having to be relocated in under a week. I'm not sure there ever is a "right way" to manage a large disaster. As for an inqu

--
Fly me to the moon Let me sing among those stars Let me see what spring is like On jupiter and mars

Re:MOD PARENT DOWN PLEASE by IgnoramusMaximus · 2005-09-01 20:44 · Score: 3, Insightful

While I can understand your gripe, it doesn't hold water--Libertarianism isn't headed by a despotic leader who wants to genocide all in disagreeance with his political views; it's just another party who wants to put more power back where they think it belongs: in the hands of the people.

Let me see, a party in power, which would significantly reduce or eliminate the last remaining restraints on multi-national corporations and allow rampant consolidation of ultra-wealthy companies. Then to remove all protective regulations, allow media to become completely consolidated and owned by the sellers, thus removing any independent information flow to consumers/citizens. Followed by removal of nearly all forms of government assistance to elderly and the sick etc etc. This kind of party would deliver a sledge-hammer blow to the entire society of the USA and although, luckilly, its power would be curbed at its borders, the citizens within would not be so lucky. Just look at what happened to FEMA. The same organization which handled the California erthquake or previous disasters like 9/11 is now paralysed shortly after a Libertarian was appointed its head. It wants people to donate to Pat Robertson's fatwa-issuing religious fund instead to directly assist the victims.

Any homogenous political system will fail--period. In its purest form, every party as we know them is utopian because they're all trying to build a world on a set of ideals. It's just the "ideals for whom" that sets tyranical dictators apart from democratic parties. Thusly, the usage of the word utopia here is relative.

Sure it is "relative". Some systems can fail within weeks (Marxism, Libertarianism) and some take centuries to falter (Socially-Responsible Democratic Capitalism of various stripes).

Seriously--your argument rests on the government being overthrown by a laissez faire group in one fell swoop, and disallowing the democratic principles that Libertarians champion. This is one of the most oft-repeated arguments, and one of the most pourus as well. If someone wants to argue real-world situations, an argument such as this is about the poorest way to do so.

No, my argument hinges on the true players, the already ultra-wealthy, laissez faire hyenas, who would immensly benefit from the naive goofuses calling themselves Libertarians, making way for them to take over in the short order via controlling the nations economy. That is what you seem to be missing in the whole scenario. Your silly utopia is in fact a battering ram with which these would-be robber barrons and feudal lords would smash the last remaining barriers holding them in place.

Might I add your flamboyant ignorance differentiates you little from that BitGeek fellow.

You are very long on bold proclamations and very short on actual logic.

Re:Dear god I'm sick of you leftists by FLEB · 2005-09-01 20:48 · Score: 2, Insightful

Ahh, yes.

It must be said that of all the advances that the Internet has brought society, few can compare to the easy access to information that allows anyone to generalize their own particular point by finding a perfectly matched wackjob, out-of-context quote, or poorly-made comment to prove that the particular opposite group are, to a one, a horde of raging assholes.

So, here's the score: The Christian (nee, the entire!) right thinks the disaster's retribution from God. Everyone left of the aisle is using it to advance wackjob theories. The Islamic religion agrees that it's just peachy. 'Bout right?

(So, what's the line from the Flying Spaghetti people?)

--
Information wants to be free.
Entertainment wants to be paid.
You just want to be cheap.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by Goldsmith · 2005-09-01 20:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

They got people to gather in centralized locations so that they could more effectively distribute aid. You want aid dropped randomly around the city so that these tired, half-drowned people have to swim a few blocks to get it?

It was not a perfect plan, obviously things could have been done much better. Before the hurricane, the city should have been more forceful in getting people to leave, as that was their best opportunity to get people out of the city. In hindsight there's always improvements to be made. Why don't we criticize the founders of the city for putting it in a place with restricted land access and a vulnerability to flooding?

It's rediculous to suggest that shooting at doctors and police during such an emergency is in any way justified. Just two years removed from being consumed in riots, Los Angeles somehow managed NOT to erupt in violence after the Northridge earthquake. I don't remember any shooting in San Diego when it was on fire last summer.

You deserve a good smack yourself for suggesting that these people who are risking their lives to try and help somehow deserve the violence they're facing.

Not enough people are helping, and those that do help are to blame for the problems? Absurd!

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by Mac+Degger · 2005-09-01 21:19 · Score: 2, Insightful

I'll go one further. WTF is up with the government? Weren't all their efforts in the past four years supposed to prepare for a national tragedy /exactly like this/? Wasn't DHS set up to promote cooperation with all the agencies?

True, I rather suspect they where expecting to deal with a city nuked by terrorists or something of the like, but wouldn't the consequences be exactly what we are seeing in NO today? So WTF have the agencies been doing the past years?

--
-- Waht? Tehr's a preveiw buottn?

FOOD, WATER, MEDICAL SUPPLIES by mikiN · 2005-09-01 21:40 · Score: 2, Insightful

Repeat after me, those people down there need

FOOD, clean WATER and MEDICAL SUPPLIES!

What are they thinking, flying a FedEx plane all the way from New York to bring in supplies (ok saw this on CNN, but anyway...)
For all I know they would consider flying in Moon dust by Apollo landers to fill the breached levees!

Why oh why can't they save the time and stop the waste of fuel for people who need it and commandeer the surplus of every Wal-Mart in a zwundred mile radius and just start carpet food/water dropping it to those desperate people? That would require only a fraction of the fuel needed to fly in FedEx from friggin' NYC.

I really don't get what's in those peoples' minds anymore.

--
The Hacker's Guide To The Kernel: Don't panic()!

If you don't rebuild it by commodoresloat · 2005-09-01 21:43 · Score: 2, Funny

...the hurricanes have already won.

Re:If only the federal, state, and local governmen by praecantator · 2005-09-01 21:45 · Score: 5, Informative

Just as a bit of fairness to the people at FEMA, people should take a look at this article; FEMA hasn't really existed as an independent agency for a while, and to quote the article for those too lazy to read it,

This year it was announced that FEMA is to "officially" lose the disaster preparedness function that it has had since its creation. The move is a death blow to an agency that was already on life support. In fact, FEMA employees have been directed not to become involved in disaster preparedness functions, since a new directorate (yet to be established) will have that mission.

The problem with FEMA preparedness and intervention goes a bit higher up.

Which is more merciless? by Hosiah · 2005-09-01 21:48 · Score: 4, Insightful

The hurricane or the United States' response to it?

I can't make up my mind. First I hear about National Guardsmen given "shoot to kill" orders, Bush asking for a paltry 10 billion in aid (as opposed to 80 billion for Iraq this year - I guess a New Orleans citizen is worth 1/8th of an Iraqi citizen?), helicopters dropping sandbags instead of food, and Bush and congress were all on vacation when this went down. And now I come on Slashdot and read people saying, in effect, that because they didn't clear out of town when they were told, it's all their own damn fault?

Remember, 1 out of 3 New Orleans citizens live at or below poverty level. What can you do when you have no car? How can you hear a warning if you don't have a TV set or radio? How can you evacuate when you're told to go to a convention center and wait for a bus that never shows up?

The storm was devestating. The response and aftermath are sickening.

Re:Which is more merciless? by Idarubicin · 2005-09-02 03:30 · Score: 2, Informative

Once they plug the holes they can repair the pumps and get the water out of the city. Once the water is out, they can get everyone out.
Draining the water from the city is a process that will take weeks, if not months. It's like trying to drain a swimming pool with a drinking straw. The pumping capacity in the city can cope with small leaks and the slow accumulation of water that is natural for a city located below sea level; it's not capable of draining the area in a day or two.
If you wait for the water to be out to evacuate the city, everyone will be dead or dying.

--
~Idarubicin

First Katrina Troll! by FatSean · 2005-09-01 23:10 · Score: 2, Insightful

Well played sir...but the 'do something constructive' rang a little sour considering this is Slashdot and if it can't be done constructively with a keyboard it usually isn't done at all :D

--
Blar.

I feel like a heel. I fired DirectNIC. by RubberDogBone · 2005-09-02 00:48 · Score: 2, Interesting

DirectNIC used to be me registrar of choice. My first domain ever was purchased through them. They were my training wheels in the world of internet domains and hosted my accounts for years.

I fired them back in July when I moved the last of my hosted accounts from DirectNIC over to GoDaddy.

It was purely for business reasons. But God, I feel terrible for them. I feel like I abandoned them even though I know my little domains probably never mattered to them. Just one of many customers.

And as of yesterday, the customer control panel was still working!

I am deeply impressed with their courage and bravery in the face of the terrible situation.

Good luck and God bless -and keep the ammo dry!

--
Sig for hire.

resembles first week after Baghdad takeover by peter303 · 2005-09-02 01:41 · Score: 2, Insightful

There was extreme looting and rioting in Baghdad the first week after the US takeover despites tens of thousands of coalition troops in each major city. It might be human nature to panic or abuse in such considitions. There were no operational utilities, terrible weather and shortages of all kinds too. We kid ourselves thinking the US is "special" and above this all. It might just be human nature.

Re:NBC news doesn't give a crap by CoffeeJedi · 2005-09-02 02:34 · Score: 3, Insightful

essentially you called them up and said
"hey, the new decentralized individual based news media (you know, those things called "blogs"?) is providing great up to the minute coverage of the disaster while you traditionalists parade out a bunch of talking heads!"

of course they got pissed at you >:)

The other week on Fox news, they were talking about blogs and wiki-news, and one of their brain-dead pundits exclaimed "but how can we trust the WORDS?!"
My wife had a good laugh at that one. Yes FOX NEWS, indeeed, how can we trust their words, thank you for that FAIR AND BALANCED commentary.

btw, i get my news from blogs, wikinews, google-news aggregation (for the major media stories) and every night i filter it with a good helping of the Daily Show with Jon Stewart.

--
May you be touched by His Noodly Appendage. RAmen.

Re:Point taken... by Catbeller · 2005-09-02 03:17 · Score: 3, Interesting

You do realize that the men raping and shooting number in the double digits?

This is about terror of scary brown people. I've been to New Orleans, and I know what the attitude towards the poor blacks of NOLA is.

Tens of thousands of people are dying in the street because whites are obsessing about the dozens committing psychopathic crimes. They're AFRAID of the people, don't want to go into the town, and don't want the people to come to THEIR towns.

Every incident of black crime is being amplified and fed back into the fear to postdatedly justify the lack of response for the calls for help.

Obsession about the few psychos to the exclusion of all others is the hallmark of network news, and they are now feeding their fear and bias back into the stew of white fear.

Sorry, but that's the truth.

Re:I predict ... by fishbowl · 2005-09-02 03:25 · Score: 2

> That New Orleans will go down in history as the
>first city lost to global climate change.

I predict that when the water recedes, we will find the city was not "destroyed", and people will still pay money for property there. It will be as expensive as ever to operate a Vieux Carre nightclub, and living will not be any less expensive for medical students at Tulane.

I also predict that by next Mardi Gras, tourists will have to look hard for evidence that the city was "destroyed".

--
-fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.

Don't by n54 · 2005-09-02 03:37 · Score: 2, Interesting

This is normal, this is how disasters actually are, turn on CNN or search the net for the interview with Jan Egeland on this, he's more knowledgeable that either one here and he said this is how big disasters are - simply because it is unfeasible to do enough stuff fast enough for anyone - and that it always gets worse in the period of 5-6-7 days after the disaster before getting better.

So don't be disappointed in America: the U.S. is no more a superman nation than any other. Yes people within the U.S. and outside, people pro-american or anti, all have some tendency to overestimate the might and power of the U.S. of A. in some respect or other - but that doesn't make it true that so is the case, and indeed it is not.

What you are seeing is a natural disaster, but the important bit is that you're seeing it from a close perspective, much closer than the tsunami, almost from the inside out because of the extensive media coverage and much more so because it happens inside the U.S.A. on the front porch of some of the biggest media in the world.

It's simple: no amount of knowledge can really prepare anyone for the reality of such a massive disaster, so it will always have an element of surprise even when one knows it's coming. The only thing that really can make people understand is living through it or to a lesser extent having been involved directly on the scene in previous disasters.

(Not an example that does the above or the situation justice but it's a bit similar to experiencing a real 3rd world slum for the first time, you might have seen it plenty on tv but nothing you see will ever prepare you for the shock of actually being there which is something completely different)

That being said I think the silver lining of this awful disaster is that with the intimate media coverage it might actually help a lot of people begin to understand if they realize just how extremely big of an event this was (especially in New Orleans).

All this is not meant as an excuse not to try to do better and aim higher for the future, so please do not take it that way - yes there have been failures, things everybody agrees should have been way different.

My heart goes out to all affected.

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