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Valve's Gabe Newell Speaks on Console Development

DelitaTheFridge writes "Gabe Newell, of Valve fame, criticizes Microsoft and Sony on how difficult it will be for next-gen developers to produce games on their upcoming hardware. He is especially critical of Sony's model, where code written to run on Cell will be very hard to port to other systems, and vice versa. Will this bring upon a new era of PC Game superiority? Only time will tell. In the meantime, Newell says he believes that Steam-like systems will be extremely helpful for developers on the new consoles due to their ability to provide updates and new content."

95 of 529 comments (clear)

  1. Pots and Kettles by fembots · · Score: 3, Informative

    Steam-like systems

    You mean the one that forces you to "update" before you can play its game? This system is making a player's life difficult too.

    It's worth noting, however, that Valve is historically a PC games developer and has only made two console games thus far--Counter-Strike and Half-Life 2, both for Xbox.

    I think this line says it all - Valve is inexperienced in cross-platform console game development, and it's whinging about it. Kind of reminds me of Alternative Browsers Impede Investigations

    1. Re:Pots and Kettles by bigman2003 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Will Microsoft's XNA platform prove to be a good idea?

      It seems like the entire plan *IS* to make cross platform (Xbox/PC) games easier to make.

      Something like XNA, if it proves to be useful, could very well swing a large pendulum in Microsoft's favor.

      How expensive is an XNA developing environment anyway...I assume it would be much cheaper than the hardware/software required for Xbox/Playstation development.

      --
      No reason to lie.
    2. Re:Pots and Kettles by Colol · · Score: 5, Interesting

      In the meantime, Newell says he believes that Steam-like systems will be extremely helpful for developers on the new consoles due to their ability to provide updates and new content.

      I'm sure that's the kind of thing Microsoft loves to hear after spending the lifetime of the Xbox being absolutely rabid about games not being allowed to patch themselves. MS has put a lot of effort into trying to keep their console running finished products, not hack jobs that aren't playable until three patches down the road, and now Valve wants to foist bug fests upon console players.

      Maybe -- just maybe -- this type of plan will finally beat Valve over the head with a clue stick. After the abortion that was Half-Life 2 and the abomination that is Steam (interesting idea, crap execution), I'd be really happy to see them get back to the ground they seemed to be breaking with Half-Life.

      On top of it all, on what planet is Gabe living where everyone has broadband enough to want to patch their Valve console games over and over? I can do other things on my computer while it downloads patches. On a console, you get to stare at a progress screen until it's done. No good. Especially not at 50 bucks a pop for console games.

    3. Re:Pots and Kettles by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 5, Insightful
      You mean the one that forces you to "update" before you can play its game? This system is making a player's life difficult too.

      Yeah, I really hate it how it automatically, within notime (on a decent DSL connection) brings me my updates to my game(s) : I much rather go back to the good old days to connecting to a server, only to discover there's a new patch out I which I have to download.
      Then I will have to find that patch with a decent download and no ridiculous artificial ques (yes, I am talking about you Fileplanet), and then install it. And all do this within half an hour... max.

      Ohwait, I forgot to add the sarcasm tag.

      If you're talking about the online activation ; Yes. it sucks : But over here on Slashdot the tendency seems to be to focus on those 'negative' points (and no, I am not losing -any- of my privacy by using Steam), rather than the few great things Steam added (eg. IM-messaging/playing chess ingame, ingame server browsers, automatical updates, a-way-to-say-f*ck-you-to-the-publishers)

    4. Re:Pots and Kettles by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, I really look forward to playing (for example) Final Fantasy, seeing it getting patched and next thing I know, the game balance got changed and my last savegames got useless, because I leveled the wrong character. You guys are way to fixated on multiplayer FPS games to see that this isn't a universally good thing. It might be nice in special cases like Counter-Strike, but please, don't force it onto people that don't want it. Else they might not want to spend their money on it.

    5. Re:Pots and Kettles by manboy9 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That's easy for you to say, but some of us don't have DSL. I live in a rural area, so the best connection I can get is 56K. I don't see why I should have to register and update HL2, when all I want is a decent single-player experience. It's gotten to the point where I disconnect from the internet every time I want to start Half-Life2 just to avoid having to download updates.

    6. Re:Pots and Kettles by arkhan_jg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      You mean disadvantages like these?

      - having to have an internet connection to play the single player game, and spending several hours waiting for it to decrypt when I bought it release day
      - how they first required both steam activation AND a dvd check for the store-bought version
      - that I can't resell my copy of HL2 when I get bored with it
      - that when steam goes belly-up, I can't play (had that problem at a LAN party, massive counter-strike problems for lots of people as the net connection couldn't handle steam logins for 200 ppl)
      - if valve goes out of business, I lose the ability to play the game I paid for
      - mandatory patches tying up my internet connection unexpectedly, a real problem for dialup users
      - piracy protection that does nothing to stop hacked copies showing up on torrent sites, but makes me jump through hoops
      -randomly losing my installed game files, forcing me to spend hours downloading and reinstalling the game via steam (happened to me twice now)

      I'm sorry, but these far outweigh any good points of steam. I for one won't be purchasing any new games from valve that require it. I'm a customer, not a damn lab rat. Make steam optional so you can use it for the handy features, such as easy patch download, and purchase games through it if you wish. But don't sell something in a box in a retail store, then turn round and treat it like a rental.

      --
      Remember kids, it's all fun and games until someone commits wholesale galactic genocide.
    7. Re:Pots and Kettles by caller9 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What about the game who's forums are full of complaints about every since patch X, I can't play.

      The steam system seems to introduce more bugs than it fixes, and yes I'm a victim of one. I've replaced my entire computer piece by piece trying to resolve this strange crash I have. After tons of tedius tweaking and redownloads, an OS reinstall (redownload), new video card, new sound card, motherboard/processor/RAM replacement, new HDD, and recently a bigger case and power supply.

      The only common thread I can figure out is both cards are nvidia and processors were both AMD (XP and now 64).

      Nothing was wrong with my computer before except it was a little weak, it still played most games fine. Now I've rebuilt it completely, thanks for the upgrade Valve. Still have the same problem and I'm done with it. $60 down the drain but good motivation for a new PC, I don't care to think about how much I spent on that.

      Software curve of bugs vs. patches over time anyone?

      I'm seriously considering dual-booting into a 64 bit linux and only keeping windows for the games made by good publishers as I've lost my passion for the last thing that kept me booting this crap.

    8. Re:Pots and Kettles by yoyhed · · Score: 3, Informative
      You mean the one that forces you to "update" before you can play its game?

      I seem to recall a little option for each Steam game, oh what was it called? Oh yeah.. Do Not Automatically Update This Game.. It's available under Properties (right-click) of any game in Steam. And online games probably should have Automatic updating on, but if you don't like new models and features and bug fixes, then turn it off for your single-player games.

      --
      WHO NEEDS SHIFT WHEN YOU HAVE CAPSLOCK/ DAMN1
    9. Re:Pots and Kettles by aklix · · Score: 3, Informative

      Yes this is a repost... please don't mod me down, but feel free not to mod me up, I just think the information is much needed. You don't NEED to update your games in steam, well, atleast single player games. 1. Open Steam 2. Open "Play Games" list 3. Right click on Half-Life 2 4. Choose "Properties" 5. Select "Do not automatically keep this game up to date" 6. ... 7. PROFIT!

    10. Re:Pots and Kettles by dremspider · · Score: 4, Insightful
      PERFECTLY? Let me count the problems that I have had with steam. Buy the game first day, I am instantly excited. Run home and install the game (I took off of work that day). It installs and then when I need to "verify the game w/ steam" or something like that it wont work, their servers are too busy.

      I rarely play the game after I beat HL2, but I have had at least two times where it won't play when it verifies my game.

      I went to a lan party, this lan party didnt have the internet. When they wanted to play CS Source for some reason the two of us with a legal copy could not play the game, it needed to verify something with a server or something like that. I ended having to get a CRACKED copy off of someone, even though I legally own the game.

      Their is also the problem that steam uses 20 megs of ram to run in the background, if you want to "autoupdate". While 20 megs isnt a ton for someone with 1 gig of RAM I dont want to see a day where Epic wants 20 megs, EA wants 20 megs, Blizzard.............. I wont have any memory left to USE my computer by the time all the companies are done.

      Their are numerous problems with Steam and Steam like systems, they are a poor idea. When owners of the game are finding it easier to use cracked versions of a game, you know that their are issues with the system that they are using. And it is not just me that has had this problem, I have numerous friends that have had similiar problems.

      Finally, you are correct HL2 was amazing, if it wasnt for Steam I would love it a lot more.

    11. Re:Pots and Kettles by VoidWraith · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll bite. First off, 1-2, is that unusual to you? You're attacking one of the few realistic ways to easily convey plot: characters. As for 3, I dont know what orifice you pulled that from, because in my not-so-humble opinion, compare HL2 to ANY other FPS game, minus tacticals like SWAT 4, and its encounters are far better (DOOM3 for instance was way more predictable, and how many people complain about that?). Fourth, you don't like completing goals? I was under the impression that most people didn't play a singleplayer story mode for random killing, but since this AC knows so much more than me about how things work, I better concede.

      As for physics, yes, you can find all that in simple programs, but do they do anything else? No. In HL2 physics is just one of its realism features that you can, unlike in older games, use to your advantage.

      In summary, you're entitled to your opinion, but when you try to base it on something, base it on something, don't just reiterate the same sort of drivel.

    12. Re:Pots and Kettles by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 2, Informative
    13. Re:Pots and Kettles by mrchaotica · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I like Half-Life 2, but I can still see its shortcomings:
      You're attacking one of the few realistic ways to easily convey plot: characters.
      Half-Life doesn't do character interaction all that well yet, because there needs to be a way to respond to what the NPCs are telling you. Now, the only way to really do this well requires voice recognition and true AI, but they could at least let you choose from a list of responses, or something.
      DOOM3 for instance was way more predictable, and how many people complain about that?
      Maybe people didn't complain about Doom 3's tactics not because they didn't care, but because they were too busy complaining about the darkness. ; )
      --

      "[Regarding the 'cloud,'] ownership was what made America different than Russia." -- Woz

    14. Re:Pots and Kettles by ophix · · Score: 4, Interesting

      i agree completely. i will NEVER buy anything from valve EVER as long as steam is required. what really pissed me off was the fact that the original HL2 retail box didnt mention an internet connection being a game requirement.

      steam is forbidden from ever being installed on any system i own period. i loved halflife single player and was looking forward to its sequal. i almost bought it. i played it briefly at a friends house and was about to walk out the door to go buy it when he mentioned that he had had to validate with steam for playing the first time. this was with a store bought retail copy.

      i hated steam since its inception, unstable buggy POS software originally. i am sure they have taken care of any stability issues since then but i refuse to have a game developer tell me that i have to be online to play a single player game. i refuse to have a game developer tell me that he can install and do anything with my computer that he wants to at any time and i just have to suck it up. screw that.

      i voted with my wallet. valve will NEVER have me as a customer as long as steam is a requirement.

    15. Re:Pots and Kettles by aweraw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Solution: keep a separate partition, or even better, a separate drive for Windows.

      I keep all of my games/music/work/downloads on a separate drive. When windows inevitably dies, I simply format it's partition, and reinstall there. All the data on my other drive is still intact. Of the few times I've done this, steam has worked fine immidiately following my successful login. No reinstalling, or re-registering of the games already attached to my steam account was required.

      --
      5468652047616D65
    16. Re:Pots and Kettles by delus10n0 · · Score: 3, Informative
      - having to have an internet connection to play the single player game, and spending several hours waiting for it to decrypt when I bought it release day


      Decryption didn't take that long, I remember it being 30 minutes or something like that. Who cares? Also, you do not need an internet connection to play single player-- there is "Offline Mode", read up on SteamPowered.com's FAQs.

      - how they first required both steam activation AND a dvd check for the store-bought version


      Not Valve's fault-- the publisher's fault. You could have just bought the Steam version..

      - that I can't resell my copy of HL2 when I get bored with it


      You should do a survey to see how often people really do this, especially with games of this quality-- don't we all still have our Doom and Duke3d boxes? Even Wolf3d?

      - that when steam goes belly-up, I can't play (had that problem at a LAN party, massive counter-strike problems for lots of people as the net connection couldn't handle steam logins for 200 ppl)


      This gets brought up all the time-- if Valve/Steam went "belly up", I'm sure they would release an official fix, or some bright individual out there will figure one out. Sheesh. Your problems at the LAN probably stemmed from not reading SteamPowered.com's guide on running in offline mode.

      - mandatory patches tying up my internet connection unexpectedly, a real problem for dialup users


      You can choose in a game's properties to NOT keep it up to date, and patches will not be automatically downloaded. Half-Life2's box says it recommends a highspeed internet connection, and so does SteamPowered.com's "Get Steam Now!" page.

      - piracy protection that does nothing to stop hacked copies showing up on torrent sites, but makes me jump through hoops


      This is like the "iTunes" of online games-- I legally bought HL2 (the gold package) and have never had a problem playing the game, getting updates, or getting the new games when they come out (HL2 Multiplayer, Blue Shift.. and soon Lost Coast and DOD:S) I'd say it's a success for paying users. The copies you're taling about (pirated ones) suffer from no auto updates, no Steam interface, little/no mod support, and you certainly can't play online. Pfft.

      -randomly losing my installed game files, forcing me to spend hours downloading and reinstalling the game via steam (happened to me twice now)


      Sounds like you've got hardware problems-- check the SteamPowered.com forums for other people having similiar issues, and you might want to fill out a support ticket, that's what they are for.
      --
      Not All Who Wander Are Lost
    17. Re:Pots and Kettles by KDR_11k · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Won't be long until SDL can use XNA, just use SDL like everyone else.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    18. Re:Pots and Kettles by spectecjr · · Score: 3, Funny

      XNA is not "Xbox/PC"! XNA is Xbox/Windows. It's not Microsoft trying to be cross-platform; quite the opposite! It's Microsoft trying to be proprietary and lock out Linux, Mac, and the other consoles in one fell swoop.

      At Gamefest 2005, they said they'd support all consoles with XNA - if other console manufacturers would let them. So no, it's not them trying to be proprietary.

      --
      Coming soon - pyrogyra
    19. Re:Pots and Kettles by HD+Webdev · · Score: 4, Informative

      i agree completely. i will NEVER buy anything from valve EVER as long as steam is required. what really pissed me off was the fact that the original HL2 retail box didnt mention an internet connection being a game requirement.

      It did. If you don't believe me, check out the http://steampowered.com/ forums. People that did complain were told to look again at their retail boxes. Guess what they found?

      --
      This is not a dream, not a dream...we are transmitting from the year 1-9-9-9.
    20. Re:Pots and Kettles by Kazzahdrane · · Score: 2, Funny

      Except Gordon never says anything ;)

    21. Re:Pots and Kettles by manno · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The reason it's helpfull to developers is because it allows them to do more. I feel your frustration with reguads to PC patches, but MS/Sony/Nintendo isn't going to let a buggy game get released because they now have a Steam type system. The big 3 all have rigorus in house testing mechanisms that they use on games before they go gold. MS/Nintendo/Sony sit between the publisher, and consumer in the path of

      Developer-> Publisher-> MS/Nintendo/Sony Review->
      Developer-> Publisher-> MS/Nintendo/Sony Review->
      Release -> Consumer

      on the PC side it looks like this

      Developer -> Publisher -> Release -> Consumer

      The publisher generaly wants a release ASAP so they can make a quick buck off of the game they have been sinking money into for the last 18+ months. So games on the PC get released prematurely. Because of lack of platform QC. Somthing that will not happen just because there is a Steam type option for developers to publish through.

      The thing Valve is looking to do is to facilitate the ease with which smaller/independant developers can get their games to consumers by making it cheaper to do so. Steam also allows larger, and more established developers to release extra content, and get feedback on content useage. Somthing a "static disk" release doesn't offer.

      I understand and agree that Steam has had it's troubles, buy it's a very good idea, and it's coming along quite well. Everyone fears change. And Valve took a huge risk attempting to do what it has done with Steam, but it was an attempt to solve a big problem for developers, publishing software, and software feedback. No one else was adressing these problems and Valve took it uppon itself to tackle them. It isn't an easy ride, but I'm glad they're taking the risk.

  2. Steam. by Poromenos1 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think systems like Steam are viable in the long run. They'll be successful for a bit while they manage to force them on us, but in the long run they're just too restrictive. The market is (hopefully) going to reject them.

    --
    Send email from the afterlife! Write your e-will at Dead Man's Switch.
  3. Can the PC make a comeback? by PocketPick · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Will this bring upon a new era of PC Game superiority?

    When the day arrives that I can take a brand-new & high-end PC game out of a box, insert it into the CD-ROM and play it immedietally without installation or having to customize 2 dozen settings: Yes. Till then: No.

    1. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by Seumas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The main reason I'm going to be most of my gaming (for non-strategy games, at least) on PS3/XBOX 360 from this point on (though I've never had a console before in my life) is that with a console, I can buy one game, have four controls and play with four people at the same time.

      On the PC, if I want to play Unreal T2K4 with a couple buddies at my place, I've got to have multiple copies of the game (so a couple hundred bucks per game right there) plus several pretty sweet boxes to play on (as opposed to just one sweet box for myself and crap to run linux on).

    2. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by Umbral+Blot · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two things:
      modding
      the mouse
      Care to play a RTS game on a console? I tried to play a lemmings console adaption once, the controls really killed it. Also mods, and their brother patches, make games last longer and more fun.

    3. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Ironically, the CD version of Counter-Strike : Condition Zero allows just that : Playing the game from memory (it does not install anything besides your configs).

    4. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by Dogmatron · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When the day arrives that I can take a brand-new & high-end PC game out of a box, insert it into the CD-ROM and play it immedietally without installation or having to customize 2 dozen settings: Yes. Till then: No.

      Seeing that you can't even spell immediately correctly, you may even have a problem doing that.

      The installation cuts down on load times since you're loading data from the HD, rather than from the CD-ROM when you're playing a game.

      Being able to play around with video and audio settings is a good thing! I hate it how consoles don't give you any relevant options, as I have seen numerous games for the Xbox (including Halo 2) experience frequent polygon drops and slowdowns.

      Playing games on a PC is not rocket science, junior. So what if it takes a little more time in the end to set up a PC game? The trade off is an improvement in performance and more options!

    5. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by PocketPick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Seeing that you can't even spell immediately correctly, you may even have a problem doing that.

      You don't have to be anal about it. Typos happen.

      The installation cuts down on load times since you're loading data from the HD, rather than from the CD-ROM when you're playing a game.

      Your assumption that 'HDs make games faster' is a generalization that is false. Games on consoles, often with far inferior hardware when compared to modern PCs, are able to sufficiently cache and stream data such that loading times, though present, are manageable or even transparent. An added HD COULD improve performance, but not always. Usually the performance of a game comes down to a programmer's ability to properly construct the architecture for a it. Case in point: Half-Life 2. Even on a great system w/medium game settings, the loading points between sections of a level are unbearable. Hell of a lot of good that locally stored data did.

      Being able to play around with video and audio settings is a good thing! I hate it how consoles don't give you any relevant options, as I have seen numerous games for the Xbox (including Halo 2) experience frequent polygon drops and slowdowns.

      And some also enjoy command lines, Vi, and Lynx. While that's fine for them, it's not okay for the vast majority of computer users. They give added power, but complicate things greatly. Same concept applies for games, and it's part of the reason why consoles have a sustained lead in the market. I pop the game in and it works. They're just simpler. They just work. And that's what people like.

      Playing games on a PC is not rocket science, junior. So what if it takes a little more time in the end to set up a PC game? The trade off is an improvement in performance and more options!

      True it's not rocket science, but it is not what I not would consider trivial either. For an average gamer coming from a console to a PC that 'little bit of time' may be hours of frustration if he can't properly diagnose his performance problems. People aren't as adept as you would like to think. You'd probably consider this as a case of stupidity, but I see it as a usability issue.

    6. Re:Can the PC make a comeback? by ZorbaTHut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, it's funny - I play games on both consoles, and almost invariably, my PC games take longer to run and play than my console games.

      Now, part of this is the fact that they're just filling more RAM. But I think another part is that PC coders don't feel nearly as much pressure to make loading fast. I know the hoops I jumped through to Load Faster Dammit on the PS2 game I worked on, and just from looking at the file layout of most PC games I can tell you they're not doing the same things.

      Of course, they're getting big bonuses on user-modifiability by doing that, so it's not just "pc coders dumb hurrr". But I'd bet cash that you could write a game that loaded from the CD faster than most modern PC games load from the hard drive.

      (And then when the first patch comes along, you'd copy the whole shebang to the hard drive anyway - another reason PC games install to HD. :) )

      --
      Breaking Into the Industry - A development log about starting a game studio.
  4. Yea okay... by Iscariot_ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    But what's your response to new content? What's going to happen to things like free levels and, for example, the free ninja gaiden update that was made available. Nope. No more of that. So his point is correct. And honestly, what's wrong with FIXING something? I see no problem with updates. I like getting new maps and new player moddles for FREE from valve. I also like fixing cheat bugs and such that simply cannot be solved once.

  5. In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    Gabe was reported saying plyaing his companies games too long could result in a person starting to resemble himself

  6. In other news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny
    Gabe Newell, of Valve fame, criticizes Microsoft and Sony on how difficult it will be for next-gen developers to produce games on their upcoming hardware.

    In other news, Sony criticizes Gabe Newell and Microsoft how difficult it is to have decent security.

  7. Actually by Solr_Flare · · Score: 3, Informative

    Say what you will about Gabe and Valve, he is very correct about both systems. In Microsoft's case, they've made things a pain for developers by having two different models with and without a hard drive.

    In the case of the PS3 and Cell, it is different enough in design from "traditional" architecture that cross platform development for it is going to be a nightmare.

    --
    You are who you are, let no one tell you different. But, never close your mind to a new point of view.
    1. Re:Actually by Osty · · Score: 5, Informative

      In Microsoft's case, they've made things a pain for developers by having two different models with and without a hard drive.

      It's only a pain if developers want to use the hard drive as more than a glorified memory card. Otherwise, there's no problem. Developers have said that Microsoft has been telling them for a while now to design their games to work without the a hard drive. If developers choose to ignore that advice (and it's questionable whether that's just advice or if it's part of the certification program required to release a game for the platform), they have no one to blame but themselves. Consumers have every right to feel screwed by Microsoft making the hard drive optional, but developers have no right to complain. Besides, doubling the RAM from 256MB to 512MB is a much more useful change for developers than a standard hard drive, so they can't complain that Microsoft isn't listening to their feedback either.

      In the case of the PS3 and Cell, it is different enough in design from "traditional" architecture that cross platform development for it is going to be a nightmare.

      The PS2 is "different enough" as well, and yet that hasn't stopped anybody from building cross-platform games. Frameworks that abstract out the underlying implementation details will pop up soon enough. The real question is whether or not Sony is going to provide a good SDK to get new developers started. They didn't do that with the PS2, which really hurt their launch line-up and had the effect of removing smaller developers from the market because they couldn't afford to take the time to build their own framework or to buy one from someone else. Microsoft has always been very developer-friendly, and one would expect that to continue with the 360. With the next gen consoles being relatively equal in power, providing a good SDK and developer support will be a key factor in getting good games on the new platforms and in winning exclusive third-party games for their respective consoles.

    2. Re:Actually by PsychicX · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just so people know exactly what it is that Newell is complaining about: Cell architectural info.

    3. Re:Actually by plalonde2 · · Score: 2, Informative
      *ALL* console architectures require that the developer is quite aware of the architecture. If you're not, your competition will eat your shorts.

      Heck, PC games require the developer to be very aware of the architecture; that's how they tune for performance; consoles just tend not to look quite like a PC, and thinking of them as PCs is just asking to produce (technically) poor games.

      Frankly, I'd be extatic if more PC programmers paid attention to the changes in architecture that have been happenning in the last few years: memory bandwidth is now king, much more so than processor speed. But few optimize their code for the bus...

  8. Oh, like me? by HBI · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I bought Doom 3. I bought Half-life, UT 2k, 2k4, DN3D, etc etc ad nauseam. I like FPS games.

    I did not buy HL2. Why? Steam.

    I might relent when the price is $10. Let's see if the game is still playable by then, given the dependence on an internet connection.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    1. Re:Oh, like me? by cazbar · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm exactly the same way. I would have been one of the early adopters of HL2 just to play counterstrike. However, I will probably never buy it simply because I don't like steam.

      I wish they would realize they are loosing sales over this and just trash the thing.

    2. Re:Oh, like me? by evilNomad · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I bought HL2, the first game in a few years.. Why? Steam..

      I didn't have to buy a DVD-drive, i didn't have to leave my room, i ordered it via steam with my creditcard, preloaded the content, and played at the day of release.. I now enjoy patches without having to pay for fileplanet to download it, I enjoy being able to setup a dedicated server simply by running a simple commandline steam tool on my linux server, I enjoy valve doing hardware surveys to make it easier for everyone developing games, since you will get an idea of what the average gamer has in his machine, I enjoy valve releasing new models, maps and hotfixes on the run wihtout having to wait to gather it all in one patch...

      And what i really enjoy? Valve getting my money when i buy their games, and no Vivendi, EA or whoever publish their games..

    3. Re:Oh, like me? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why all the complaining about Fileplanet when Filefront has every patch on Fileplanet but at 10 times the bandwidth, no fees and no queues? Is someone forcing you all to use Fileplanet?

  9. Video Interview by DrIdiot · · Score: 5, Informative
    http://valve.1up.com/flat/Themeweek/Valve/video6.h tml
    There's the actual video interview.

    I spoke to some people at Microsoft, and as I said, I can't point to a single feature in Vista that I care about that solves problems for us.
    I can't see a single feature in Vista that solves any problems I've had with Windows on the consumer's side either.

    And I totally see why Sony wants people to write code that runs on seven SPEs and a central processing unit, because that code is never going to run well anywhere else
    You can say the same about DirectX. You can never run DirectX on anything but Windows. (WINE doesn't count). This is common practice, it happens with proprietary formats, why wouldn't it happen with game consoles?

    1. Re:Video Interview by thirty2bit · · Score: 2, Informative

      You can say the same about DirectX. You can never run DirectX on anything but Windows. (WINE doesn't count). This is common practice, it happens with proprietary formats, why wouldn't it happen with game consoles?
      There is a big difference between API calls and writing code to run on a cell processor-based system. APIs can be thunked or emulated. Processor specific code, or processor feature specific code is a totally different matter. It may take gobs of assembly to implement cell processors which would be a major fsck to port.

  10. What's so special by Xarius · · Score: 2, Interesting

    about Steam?

    Steam-like systems will be extremely helpful for developers on the new consoles due to their ability to provide updates and new content.

    Isn't it just a glorified download interface?

    --
    C17H21NO4
    1. Re:What's so special by biraneto2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, it's not. It's far from a simple download interface, it has a lot of code underneath its graphic interface.
      Systems that provide update features have big advantages over a download by yourself one.

      -The user don't need to know what he needs to update. If you stop updating... and a month later you try the game again you don't bother seeking and verifying the last 8 updates on the site. Not everyone is a linux user.
      -Updates can be released more often, since the system manages the updates needed.
      -Security. It's harder to crack the game. You may not mind it, but for a software selling company this is very important.
      -Communication and news. It's way more pleasant to view news when you login into a game system than recieving not always welcome mail.

      There is probably others I forgot to mention here.

    2. Re:What's so special by Rallion · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Um, for three of your four points -- ease of updates, frequency of updates, and communication -- the simple updaters that come with lots of other games (Neverwinter Nights comes to mind) work just as well, if not better.

  11. Distributed programming is hard ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Not to be blunt or anything, but getting good performance out of any distributed system is always overly complicated; this will be equally true of multicore PC systems as it is of new console systems. Let's face the facts, few game developers have really had to consider critical sections and racing conditions on the level they're now forced to face them; this means that most developers are simply not up to the challenge and will produce some technically inferior games.

    Now, there will essentially be two classes of games in the next generation; the graphically impressive and technically superior games and the games which are only a slight improvement over what we've seen on either the Gamecube or the XBox.

    Valve's comments don't really matter that much, because producing games for the PC will be several times as complicated as it ever was before. If you started producing a brand new game today you would have to consider low, mid and high level single core as well as low, mid and high level multi-core systems; not an easy choice considering the single core systems will potentially perform much worse with distributed algorithms whereas the multi-core systems will perform dramatically worse on a single threaded system.

    At least the developers will not be given the necessary time to tweak their code on the PC until after the game is released (Just what I always loved, buggy games).

  12. Hmm... by MaestroSartori · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Apparently the solution to consoles being difficult to program for is to use Valve's proprietary, slightly sucky, extremely annoying Steam content delivery service. I don't get how that works, sorry. And I'm a console developer working on next gen.

    To meet some of the other points he's raised doesn't take too much effort either:

    Apparently nothing in Vista helps him out at all? What a shame. I fail to see how that is particularly relevant, especially since it really doesn't make anything worse. XNA might change things for Valve, but that's not the same thing. Valve only target one OS. If that OS changes under them, perhaps they should have practiced cross-platform development to cover that eventuality...

    I'm not really surprised he says Xbox 360 makes his life worse - a lot of the planned online functionality MS have in store renders Steam somewhat irrelevant.

    And I think he's being a touch cynical about the reasons for Sony's Cell architecture (disclaimer - I work for Sony). But I suppose he could be correct. Again, though, there are techniques for cross-platform development which Valve hasn't bothered its ass using.

    If you stick with writing games for x86 Windows, I don't feel much sympathy for teething troubles when you start hitting the console hardware. Mainly because (shock) it really isn't all that different for the majority of the coders! Yes, you'll need specialists. But huge chunks of stuff won't need to change at all - game logic, frontend, scripts/scripting. This isn't rocket science, and many companies have been releasing titles near-simultaneously on multiple, drastically different hardware platforms for years.

    Sour grapes from a Win32 codeshop. Who'd believe it...

    1. Re:Hmm... by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I'm not really surprised he says Xbox 360 makes his life worse - a lot of the planned online functionality MS have in store renders Steam somewhat irrelevant.

      That's not what makes his life worse. It's the multi-CPU aspect. Same as with the new Sony Cell chips making things diffucult.

      Check out his other interview on the same topic

      Oh, in case you think he's still just upset about your company 'rendering Steam somewhat irrelevent', check out what John Carmack of Id (DOOM 3) and Tim Sweeney of Epic Games (Unreal Tournament) have to say about the topic. Those two don't have any Steam to worry about, but agree with Gabe.

      A Sony employee dismissing criticism of Sony. Who'd believe it...

  13. Excuse me? by wowbagger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Gabe Newell - the guy who's company has chosen to make their games NOT portable to any thing other than Windows, is criticizing Sony for making their games hard to port?

    The same Gabe Newell who took a relatively portable game framework (Quake) and made it NOT portable (Half-Life)?

    The same Gabe Newell who chose to use a non-portable graphics framework (Direct-3D) rather than a portable graphics framework (OpenGL) for Half-Life II?

    Well, I guess he is an expert in non-portable - we'll allow his testimony.

  14. PC/Console games by typical · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Will this bring upon a new era of PC Game superiority?

    God, this is a sad attempt to revive a tired flamefest.

    The answer is no, for two reasons.

    First, the PC and the console are two different beasts. The different peripherals and capabilities of each system tend to lend them to different types of games. My favorite PC games have not hit the console, and visa versa.

    Second, console games sell a lot more copies (partly due to the greater Joe Sixpack appeal from easier setups and partly because it's a pain in the ass to pirate games on modern consoles, so you don't see two-thirds of the games out there being pirated, as you do on the computer). A lack of compatibility would probably not be a really good thing for the PC, given that there are more development dollars in console games (actually, a lack of compatibility almost always screws over the end user and benefits only the system vendors).

    In the silver lining department, this is probably a good thing for Linux -- the large and current commercial game library on Windows is one of its greatest strengths in the college crowd, and whatever college students use is what everyone uses in a couple years.

    --
    Any program relying on (nontrivial) preemptive multithreading will be buggy.
  15. head in sand about computer architecture trends by mmp · · Score: 5, Interesting

    From TFA:

    Newell was equally harsh, if not more so, on Sony for its design of the PS3 architecture and programming environment. "There are incredibly few programmers who can safely write code in the PlayStation 3 environment. And I totally see why Sony wants people to write code that runs on seven SPEs and a central processing unit, because that code is never going to run well anywhere else," he said.

    What he seems to not understand/want to pretend isn't the case is the fact that the architecture of the Cell is a reflection of longstanding trends in computer architecture, not an exotic thing that Sony dreamed up to be troublesome.

    In particular, there has been a longstanding disconnect between the growth in the amount of memory bandwidth available to chips versus the amount of computation that can be done on them. Computational capacity is growing much more quickly than memory access. Over enough years, this disconnect makes a big difference! Nowadways, processor architects will tell you that computation is basically free while communication is what is expensive.

    Architectures ranging from GPUs to multicore CPUs to Cell take advantage of these trends in various ways, deliving much more computational capacity than standard CPUs. All of these architectures are deeply inherently parallel. There just isn't any other viable way to take advantage of all of this computation.

    John Owens has a nice chapter in GPU Gems 2 on this topic.

    If Newell (or whoever) doesn't want to program the SPEs on the Cell, he's free to just use the PPC CPU on it. And his game will be much slower than someone who uses it well. But there aren't going to be very many performance gains in the future to be had from single-threaded code running on CPUs. So while Cell is not trivial to program, none of the other choices are any easier. (Note that there are C/C++ compilers for the SPE instruction set, etc, so they're not *that* hard to program.)

    (I'd like to hope that Newell actually knows all this and is just posturing in he middle of his Steam pimping and that this doesn't reflect reality in Valve's world!)

    -matt

  16. great by HBI · · Score: 4, Insightful

    What happens if you want to play it 15 years later?

    I can still play Ultima Underworld (the original). Will you be able to say the same about HL2?

    Great game btw, UU.

    --
    HBI's Law: Frequency of calling others Nazis is directly correlated with the likelihood of the accuser being Communist.
    1. Re:great by evilNomad · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Valve will either still be going strong, or they will have released a patch to allow offline play, and besides, Steam already offers offline play...

      Oh btw, do you also whine and scream about DOS games you cannot play anymore? Missing the old 320x240 resolution? Sigh, your hate for steam clearly surpasses any logic, so this is a waste of time..

    2. Re:great by ocelotbob · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The difference is that the old 486 in the corner is still fully functional, and if it ever did die, there are still emulators, etc. Who's to say what will happen with valve and their masters Vivendi?

      --

      Marxism is the opiate of dumbasses

    3. Re:great by neverkevin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are not going to buy a game because 15 years from now you might not be able to play it? Other then a house, I don't think about "what if" scenarios for 15 year from now when I purchase something. Just relax, it is just a $50 video game, it may work 15 years from now or it might not, I am sure you will be able to get by. The 20-25 hours of entertainment I got out of the game was worth the $50 I spent.

    4. Re:great by PaganRitual · · Score: 2, Funny

      I agree with your points, but

      "Oh btw, do you also whine and scream about DOS games you cannot play anymore?"

      I wouldn't go as far as to say 'whine and scream', but I've been hankering for some Syndicate Wars, Ultima Underworld, Blood and X-Com lately, and either the DOS emulators are still struggling with DOS4GW mode, or the games weren't made for a keyboard with a stupid windows key.

      So, in summary, WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA ARRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHH I WANT TO PLAY MY OLD DOS GAMES!!!!

    5. Re:great by festers · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Let me guess, your one of those people who thought Circuit City's disposable DVDs (divx) was a good idea? Or you wouldn't mind if your board game spontaneously stopped working? Some of us like knowing our hard-earned money isn't going to be dependent on a company staying in business. Yes, we like to replay games that are 15 years old.

      --


      -------
      "Every artist is a cannibal, every poet is a thief."
    6. Re:great by neverkevin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Let me guess, your one of those people who thought Circuit City's disposable DVDs (divx) was a good idea?"

      I didn't think it was a good idea profit wise, but I have no problems with the concept as long as they are not trying to fool people into believing they were like regular DVDs.

      "Or you wouldn't mind if your board game spontaneously stopped working?"

      If it stopped working a day or two after I bought it, then yes I would mind. However, if it spontaneously stopped working a year after I bought it I would probably just deal with it. I have had board games where pieces broke or got lost which rendered the game unplayable, but I didn't have a tantrum.

      "Some of us like knowing our hard-earned money isn't going to be dependent on a company staying in business. Yes, we like to replay games that are 15 years old"

      I have no problem with you playing 15 year old games, however I think it is silly to not buy and enjoy a $50 game today because of some "what if" scenario 15 years in the future.

      I get this image of you staying up at night worrying that your game library might be obsolete. I imagine that you spend hours of your time making 3 and 4 backups of every game and buying spare hardware just so you can play these games 15 years from now. Life is short, live for the present. If the games don't work 15 years from now, I am sure you will find other cheap ways to entertain yourself.

    7. Re:great by dasunt · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Other then a house, I don't think about "what if" scenarios for 15 year from now when I purchase something.

      I have books that I'll reread 15 years down the road. I have movies that I'll rewatch 15 years down the road. Why not video games that I'll replay 15 years down the road?

  17. Re:c'mon by FLAGGR · · Score: 3, Informative

    Exactly. To a non-coder it sounds like a walk in the park eh j3rry?. The x360 is, what, a triple core powerpc chip, and the PS3 is a less powerful chip, almost identical to one of the x360 cores, but with 7 SPE's (the S stands for stupid, not synergistic or whatever the fuck their marketroids named em)

    These consoles are taking the idea of multithreading to the max, and both are taking very different approaches. Porting between the consoles was hard enough this gen (xbox getting good pc ports as it pretty much was a pc, the gcn being a ppc and the ps2 being made by sony, who can never make anything easy to develop for, and required alot of assembly code and hand vectorization to get a game working well on the already slower hardware) but now we've got not just different architectures to support, but completly and totally different programming models to support.

  18. Spoiled brats by acidblood · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Maybe I'm just too impressed with Cell's architecture to see things clearly, but here's my opinion...

    Generation after generation, developers have been given ever more powerful processors with a corresponding extra cost in hardware. Some of this is really needed to overcome architectural limitations (register renaming to make up for the scarcity of registers in x86 comes to mind) -- indeed I think x86 is too crippled to perform well without lots of hardware assistance.

    But the fact is that we've hit a wall of performance. Power increases due to ever more complex chips, plus certain effects like leakage currents (that were disregarded in previous manufacturing processes) are becoming ever more problematic. So the free performance lunch is over, and CPU designers are having to trim the fat of their designs. The result is nice power-efficient architectures like the Pentium M, but there's only so much that power-conscious design can do if you still must have the complexity of out-of-order execution and other modern CPU features.

    So there's really no way around. If you need a power-efficient processor, you're going to have to resort to completely new architectural ideas, like extensive use of SIMD and multi-core as Cell does. Programmers are going to pay a price in terms of complexity and cost of software development, yes; but there's no other way, the growth of CPUs we're used to is flattening out, unfortunately, and can only grow again through adoption of these alternative programming models.

    Which is why I say these people are spoiled brats. If CPU designers are guilty of anything, it's feeding off this illusion that infinite growth without laying any burdens on programmers was possible. But complaining is no good now; either they're going to adapt or die. It's clear that no ordinary out-of-order design, using the same transistor budget, can reach the peak power of Cell if correctly programmed. So if these guys really want the extra power to make better games, they'll have to learn these new programming models and bear the burden of extra complexity.

    --

    Join the NFSNET. Our prime goal is making little numbers out of big ones. http://www.nfsnet.org/

    1. Re:Spoiled brats by PsychicX · · Score: 2, Interesting

      New programming models are in order, yes. The entire industry is more or less in agreement that multiple processing cores are in order. The Pentium D and the Athlon64 X2 are the desktop side evolutions. The consoles, however, are a rather more touch issue.
      See, the problem is that Sony's architecture is very powerful in numbers. The 2 TFLOPS number is real...in a very, very limited set of circumstances. Cell is designed a lot like a GPU in some aspects, and a lot like a video decoding processor in some aspects. Unfortunately, neither one is useful for game programming (remember that Cell does not participate in the rendering pipeline of PS3, that is handled by NV's RSX). Now, like some people have pointed out here, Newell is a whiny bitch who wouldn't know portability if it smacked him in the face. But that doesn't change the fact that Sony is making life difficult, and it's not yet clear to most people whether the Cell architecture is at all useful in games. Personally, I'm inclined to say no, but I'm an amateur/college student, so take that as you will. However, it's definitely solid fact that Cell is very different from anything else out there, which sucks. Add to that the problem that developers by and large are not convinced that Cell is different in a good way (and I know quite a few devs), and things are really a bit of a mess.

    2. Re:Spoiled brats by Xugumad · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Kinda with you on this. I'm not a big fan of Cell - I can't shake a feeling it's overhyped - but I do think multi-core/multi-processer systems are the way forward.

      In particular, I don't think they're going to have that big a problem porting between platforms. Split your game engine into a generic CPU-orientated thread, plus 6 threads designed to work well with the various cores in Cell. Admittadely, this leaves one non-generic core unused, but I don't think that's going to be an issue for games in the short to medium term, at least.

      Port to XBox 360 by putting the generic thread on one cores, and 3 of each of the smaller threads on the other two cores. Port to PC by stuffing all 7 threads on one CPU (or let the system auto-balance if you have multiple cores).

      It's a bit of a hassle, and there will have to be platform specific tweaks, but I don't think that's what's really getting to developers. I think they're not used to having to deal with the issues related to multi-threading, and that's what scares them.

    3. Re:Spoiled brats by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And one of the problems the Cell seems to have, at least as it's being implemented in the PS3 is that the core can't get data in and out of memory fast enough for the units to do as much good work as they should be able to. A fast coprocessor is neat and all, but if the main chip can't fetch data fast enough for it, and it can't fetch data itself, then it's kinda academic.

    4. Re:Spoiled brats by acidblood · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's correct that the programmer doesn't see the renamed registers and must still spill to memory. However, given enough load/store execution units (the P4 can execute one load and one store per clock, for instance), and store-to-load forwarding circuitry, you can mostly `code around' the lack of registers. A store you can fire and forget, of course; and a load, if you just recently stored the value you're loading (which is the expected situation if register pressure is high, you're swapping values all the time), then STLF will forward the result with latency perhaps as low as zero. Of course, the forwarded data must come from somewhere, and that's the renamed registers. Ultimately what matters is having a lot of registers in the CPU (even if not exposed to the programmer) and actually using them to exploit as much parallelism as possible.

      I agree it's not as good as actually having a higher number of registers -- if the register pressure is high, there may be a lack of load/store ports, and code size is increased -- but ultimately most parallelism can be exploited and that's what matters. The fact that recent x86 processors perform as well as their RISC counterparts is a testament to that.

      --

      Join the NFSNET. Our prime goal is making little numbers out of big ones. http://www.nfsnet.org/

  19. Fan-boys go away... by 0xDAVE · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The PS3 architecture is quite odd...

    Its a fact that, n parallel processors is less efficient than one n-times-faster processor. And Sony does have some quite none standard C++ extensions compared to microsofts use of OpenMP.

    1. Re:Fan-boys go away... by SQL+Error · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The PS3 architecture is quite odd...

      No it's not. It's basically a better-organised and larger version of the PS2's Emotion Engine... Albeit with a different instruction set.

      The PS2 developers love it. "256KB of memory per SPE? And we can program it in C? Woot!"

      Its a fact that, n parallel processors is less efficient than one n-times-faster processor.

      It's a fact that you can't get n-times-faster processors, so tough bickies.

  20. Game Programmers are weird. by bullitB · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Is it just me, or do game programmers seem to be the only group of coders who get away with flaunting their apparent inability to write portable, flexible code?

    Word is they couldn't even get Half-Life 1 to run on Macs because there was too much platform-specific code. I'd assume the same issue occurred in HL2 (there was an Xbox "port", but that's really just a repackaging of a windows app). Most other groups of programmers would seriously love to have the opportunity to write code for neat new hyper-parallel chip designs. The entire game industry apparently can't figure out how to make sound and video run in separate threads, something which should seriously be an over-the-weekend kind of change.

    I really don't mean to belittle the entire game development community, but I really don't get it. The entire computing industry is moving toward multi-core chips, parallel computing and network-centric storage. Why the hell are game programmers, the ones who are supposed to be pushing computer architectures, living in the early 1990s?

    1. Re:Game Programmers are weird. by Tim+Browse · · Score: 4, Insightful
      The entire game industry apparently can't figure out how to make sound and video run in separate threads

      You've got some sort of evidence to back up this assumed truism, have you?

      Before you answer, consider that for example, on a PS2, the sound is handled by a different CPU anyway, so you can't avoid having multi-process code for sound/syncing.

      Games do have some difficult problems to solve, to maximise performance, so while you don't mean to belittle the game dev community, you probably are anyway. They usually involve trade-offs - e.g. you want to animate a character's vertices, but due to your parallel architecture, that data is currently being used to render the character. So you have to double buffer the data...but that uses up pretty significant resources...so you might have to come up with some complex interlocking mechanism. Oh, and you're also trying to run the AI at the same time in this parallel world, which probably needs to know the current position/orientation of the character, not what it was for the previous frame, etc. Physics too, maybe. Have fun with that.

      That's not to say Gabe's complaints are all that valid though. Technology changes, and you move on, as you say.

      It's just a pain when you have a large code base that is hard to port (through no particular fault of your own). Direct3D issues are pretty small compared to re-architecting your system to run on 7 cpus instead of one.

      I still remember when a few guys came back from a Sony conference, and said that Sony's advice for performance optimisation was to not use C++, because the EE was piss-poor at running it, due to the tiny I/D caches. Apparently on most PS2 games, the EE was idle/stalling for about 50% of the time due to C++ usage patterns.

      Of course, most engineers' reaction to that was, why did they build a console that would run C++ code poorly, when they knew the majority of devs would use C++?

      I think Gabe is fearing a similar situation with the PS3. Having experienced Sony's idea of what constituted 'development tools' for the PS2, I'd probably be worried too, if I was in his shoes.

    2. Re:Game Programmers are weird. by Arrgh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's not just game programmers who are "weird." Most people, including programmers, just aren't very good at doing things they haven't already done before. And just because you can write code and 95% of the population can't doesn't mean you have the talent or skill to handle any coding task thrown at you.

      You and I have been comfortable coding for multithreaded environments for awhile, but the game industry hasn't been forced to feel that pain yet, and Gabe Newell is pissing into the wind about it when he should be spending all his time trying to figure out how to make best use of the hardware we're going to get rather than the hardware we wish we could get.

      AMD, Intel and IBM would love to continue providing the exponential improvements in single-threaded, in-order execution we've been enjoying for thirty years, but it doesn't look likely this trend will continue even at geometric rates into the foreseeable future.

    3. Re:Game Programmers are weird. by dkf · · Score: 2, Funny

      You young whipper-snappers should learn from decades of experience with SIMD processors in the scientific supercomputing community: if you want high-speed parallel code, you use Fortran.

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    4. Re:Game Programmers are weird. by alan_dershowitz · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you compare two general-purpose computers or embedded systems, they will generally contain the same type of components in them, things that will be abstracted away by your programming language and OS. If you look at the old game consoles, this was not the case for several reasons.

      Firstly, you were not necessarily programming to a standard library, and you weren't necessarily programming in C or C++. You didn't get those abstractions.

      Also, you were programming to specific hardware that was built into the unit to try to squeeze extra performance out of the hardware limits. So you end up with things like the tile engines. Every one of them has different modes that mean that the screen is a different resolution, the color depth is different, the color usage is different, the memory structure to store and display it is different, all your sprites are different pixel sizes and can have different numbers of sprites, all with their own limitations on how many you can have per line, etc.

      Keep in mind that you never have enough power to do what you want to accomplish. So, if you build a game to the best of the hardware abilities of a system, you have just irrevocably made a commitment to that hardware platform. As soon as you want to port it to a different system, you hav e to resize all your sprites, change the color pallete around, change the gameplay to accommodate the smaller number of sprites for the other system, and optimize the assembler for that CPU. You get less memory, so now you have to come up with a way to swap sprites in and out of tile RAM without interrupting gameplay.

      This shit is hard. Now, I can't speak for newer game systems except by what I've heard, but I do know for example, that some games from one system to the next still have to be pared down because of overall VRAM, texture and and system memory limitations from one machine to the other. On a PC, you might just code for the lowest common denominator, but that doesn't work on consoles. This is just a guess, I really can't speak to that. But at least in the past, there was a very good reason it was hard for game programmers to make "portable" code. The machines you were coding for were completely different at the implementation level of game coding. No one was even making cross-platform libraries for coding. There especially was not libraries for things like multithreading (the saturn had two CPUs, but the lack of good libraries for coding for the Saturn's unique features was one of the reasons that Saturn games never lived up to the expectations for the hardware. I wonder if this will be the same for Sony and their Cell architecure. It sounds like the same thing all over again, except that this time we have good general purpose libraries that will be ported to the system. Hopefully there will be people that know how to use them.)

  21. Steam-like system by phriedom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't think a Steam-like system is going to have much luck on consoles, since X-Box Live already exists, unless you count X-Box Live as a Steam-like system.

    However, I DO think that Steam and Steam-like systems, properly done, have great potential to break the strangle-hold that the publishers have on the industry. An alternative, low-cost, popular (that is the tough one) distribution system could create a market for smaller developers and games with smaller budgets that won't get picked up by Sierra and EA and won't ever get on store shelves. Everything people hate about today's game industry could be destroyed by good independant distribution.

    --
    Don't moderate flamebait as Troll. Know the difference or you will be Meta-moderated.
  22. new age of PC superiority by cataclyst · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unless and until I see 4 people sitting around their 'Media Center' PC with USB controllers playing a 4-player offline game on the TV...

    let's just say we should leave the hyperbole to the fanboys...

    --
    E = m * c^(Hammer)
  23. PS3 cores by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The difficult thing to port games to and from the PS3 won't necessarily be due to the multi-core sets or differing GPUs, as OpenGL is common place and multi-cores are becoming standard across PCs and consoles. The difference is that most of the cores in the PS3 are more akin to DSPs rather than full on GPUs: they are designed to crunch floating point math almost exclusively for physics and graphics over AI and network. This is somewhat untested and unproven territory, as shown by Apple's refusal of design adoption. This sort of design is unique and hard to translate to any other architecture and can provide gains for those who code to it, and difficulties to those who may try to abstract that layer for portability.

  24. Well.. by Sv-Manowar · · Score: 3, Insightful

    "Newell says he believes that Steam-like systems will be extremely helpful for developers on the new consoles due to their ability to provide updates and new content."

    This is to be expected, he has funded the creation of Steam from scratch, of course he is going to sign it's praises and say software like it is the future. The thing that he doesn't have control over is the customers, and they will decide what the future is.

  25. Re:c'mon by FLAGGR · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I completly agree. You could have a seperate audio thread, maybe a seperate one for networking, but it's not worth the hassle of sync'ing the threads and watching out for race conditions. I honestly have to wonder how much speed you lose from things like that.

    Offtopic bit (sorry but it will tie in at the end): Multithreaded games remind me of the same silliness of monolithic vs micro kernels. Back when Linus introduced Linux, there was a debate with Mr. Tannenbaum (creator of Minix), Linus and other users over which was better. The micro kernel idea, which minix used, was seperating things like disk i/o into seperate proccess outside of the kernel. Basically the kernel became very small, and managed things like messaging between the proccesses. There were some reasons for this that I won't go into. You can read the beggining of the book Open Sources, which is free online, for the story and logs of the debate. Anyways, these kernel's simply didn't preform better than monolithic kernels such as Linux, even though they should, and were not more stabble, even though they should've been. They sounded great on paper, but no one had been able to implement one realistically. As we can see, Linux is one of the fastest/feature rich kernel's out there (at least the 2.6 branch) yet it is still monolithic (although you can have modules - but not for everything, not for the most important things) We also have OSX, which adopted most of the MACH kernel, and is therefore a micro kernel, but as you can see by the recent benchmarks ars technica (I think it was them) have posted, it still doesn't compare to Linux for most things (like mysql and server stuff), although it is equal in others, like workstation stuff.


    Anyways, sorry for the completly off topic exposistion, but I think we can learn a lesson here is that even though something may sound good on paper, and be theoretically a better way to do things, I can imagine it not working out, but maybe it will. There's alot of potential for dual core (The DS already uses this, the N64 did etc) and maybe even triple, but Sony's Cell CPU, with one main core and seven little SPE's is just overboard.

  26. Re:Fear of the new by Have+Blue · · Score: 2, Funny

    More like "OH NOES! An alternative to my current specialization! It requires adapting and additional investment, therefore I must fear it!"

  27. Blah Blah Blah by justin_saunders · · Score: 4, Insightful

    With Unreal 3 and Havok already on XBOX360 and PS3, I would be worried about trying to sell Source too.

    All I read was:

    Blah blah blah, Consoles are hard to develop for, blah blah blah, we can't get our technology to work on them, blah blah blah, buy our product, blah blah blah.

    --

    "My cat's breath smells like cat food." - The Tao of Ralph Wiggum.
  28. This is what bothers me most ... by SuperDuG · · Score: 2, Interesting
    Game makers who want their games to play on anything and everything out there. I think it's obvious that nintendo, microsoft, sony, and the computer are completely different machines. While they do have simularities between them, it should stand to reason that they are still DIFFERENT.

    Halo and Halo 2 were games designed only for X-Box (and later they made a PC varient) that sold wonderfully. Haven't we finally come to a point that it can be proven that a title can be successful if only written for one platform?

    Halo and Pikmin are two games that I absolutely love to play, but are only available on one system (XBox and Gamecube respectfully). This idea that you have to have a game play on every platform is the pitfall that we've experienced in special part thanks to EA.

    Even today most games are designed to play on the xbox or playstation 2. Nintendo has been making millions of dollars since day one making and endorsing games that are only available on their systems, when are the other consoles going to start to do the same?

    If you write a game for portability and not to take advantage of the pros of a system then you'll have the same mundane game across all platforms.

    --
    Ignore the "p2p is theft" trolls, they're just uninformed
    1. Re:This is what bothers me most ... by Zevets · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Very interesting point on taking advantage of the hardware, all though I strongly disagree. But, on the matter of Halo, the original was designed for the PC, I believe to be published by Microsoft Games, when the new XBox unit wanted to a "killer ap" and got Microsoft Games to throw some money at Bungie to move it to the PC-similar Xbox. As for your Interesting point, I think gameplay, which makes games fun, is devoid of hardware, and with a properly portable engine, the gameplay can be on all systems.

      --

      Mod Wisely.

  29. Re:"PC Game superiority"? by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2, Interesting
    It's not just Valve's arguement. John Carmack creator of DOOM 3 agrees, as does Tim Sweeney of Epic Games (Unreal, etc).

    When the makers of the big 3 FPS games all agree on it, I think there may just be a real issue.

  30. Nintendo Revolution by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    This is the sort of thing that Nintendo has been criticising for a while. They have actually stated that they would rather make a console that is easy to develop for, than one that has the all the latest bells and whistle.

    The only thing that is holding Nintendo back now is the "family oriented" image they have always paraded. It will be interesting to see if Nintendo maintains this approach, or whether they will change this?

    --
    Jumpstart the tartan drive.
  31. Resisting progress by Cassius105 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    while i can understand things like the CELL architecture making his life more difficult i think its a bit stupid to slam the idea all together because processor architecture has to progress at some point and should be encouraged

    what hes saying atm is its bad that sony are using a new and possibly better architecture just because no one else is

  32. Re:"PC Game superiority"? by Dogmatron · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To me, it comes off as the same type of whining that happened when game programmers switched from DOS to Windows/DirectX, and from C to C++. It's like asking "Have you seen any good games that aren't written in DOS? Have you seen any good games that take advantage of principles in OOP? Well, what is the point of then?"

    It's pointless criticism. Yes, things actually do change, believe it or not! Besides, Valve will face the same (well, actually worse) problems with PCs, so they really have no room to complain.

    The fact that Valve is now ill-prepared and complaining when this was all well foreseen is what's so infantile about their ramblings.

  33. Why should Sony care if PS3 code is non portable? by LordZardoz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Making that complaint is akin to complaining that you cannot buy a Whopper at Mc Donalds. Sony needs its platform to be successful. Why should it accomodate the needs of those looking to write multi-platform code that can only potentially hurt its market share?

    Sony must make the PS3 as easy to program for as possible, but that does not at all mean that it should keep its architecture even remotely compatible with competing platforms.

    Besides, it may just backfire on Sony. Having done well in one hardware generation is no guarantee of success for the next generation. Being able to leverage its previous successes are important, but people eager to play PS2 games are not going to buy a PS3 to play those games if they already have a PS2 and would rather play X-Box 360 or Revolution titles.

    END COMMUNICATION

  34. Remember the Atari Jaguar by gozar · · Score: 2, Informative
    The complaints from developers at the time was that it was too difficult to write code for the two processors, so most games were written for the motorola 68000 (the same that was in the Genesis). This made games appear slower than on other contemporary game systems. It didn't have to be that way:
    From AtariAge.com: Technically, the Jaguar was impressive. Five processors reside in three chips, two of them being proprietary (Tom and Jerry) with a third being a Motorola 68000 coprocessor. The GPU runs at 26.591Mhz and is rated at 26.591 MIPS (Millions of Instructions Per Second). There is a 64-bit data bus for communication and two megabytes of fast-page mode DRAM.
    --
    What, me worry?
  35. Re:c'mon by Paladin128 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The real reason is that we can't keep making CPU's faster without going this route. Intel is currently incapable of making a P4 hit 4ghz, which they originally planned for over a year ago. IBM was unable to deliver Apple a 3 ghz G5 like they promised. We're reaching physical limitations of the silicon here. Because of this, the future is multicore.

    Also, a 5ghz out-of-order PowerPC 970 (or similar) would draw tons more power than the three simplified in-order PPC cores running at 3.5ghz in the Xbox 360. Performance per watt is becoming increasingly important in both PC's and consoles. Do you really want a console that sounds like a jet engine and heats up your room? How about one that draws so much power, it trips your breaker if it's on the same circuit as your fridge? Didn't think so.

    Sony and Microsoft honestly took the more sensible and future-proof route. Sure, the first-gen games for the systems would have been a bit better and loads easier to write if they just put in the fastest PPC970 or Athlon64 available in the damn thing, but these systems have to have a shelf life of around 4-5 years. By then, ALL PC's will be multi-core -- period. Look at Intel, AMD, and IBM's road-map. They can't just turn up the clockspeed forever. Sure, there will be process improvements, and marginal gains, but not like in the past. Intel's "next-gen" architecture is largely based on multi-core Pentium-M's. Why? The growing power requirements of the P4's is ridiculous, and limits the applications of the CPU's. Plus, the P4 can't keep scaling up, despite the Prescott core's absurd 31-stage pipeline!

    --
    Lex orandi, lex credendi.
  36. Get Over It by c2_bag · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You know I get a little bit frustrated when I see people shouting and using words like NEVER too many times in a posting. Look, Steam may have its problems, but as someone who used it everyday for 6 months while making a Source mod, I really don't see the problems that you are talking about. Maybe once a week I would have to wait a few minutes for it to do "something", but other than that, Steam was actually a great way to access all of the dev programs in Source plus test different versions of our game. That and take a CS break now and then. The idea that this is some great intrusion on your privacy or whatever is just ludicrous. The software works: it allows them to automatically update the game, send me news about shit they want me to buy (which sometimes I actually want to), send me news about free shit, and generally sits nicely in my tray, doing absolutely nothing 99% of the time.

    --
    c2_bag
  37. This is what's wrong by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "But what's your response to new content? What's going to happen to things like free levels and, for example, the free ninja gaiden update that was made available."

    Sega managed to run new levels off a memory card just fine, for example in the Dreamcast version of Skies Or Arcadia.

    "And honestly, what's wrong with FIXING something? I see no problem with updates."

    I _do_ see a problem with shoving a broken, disfunctional product out the door. I very much like it that when I buy a game, it actually works. I _do_ see a problem with paying to be a beta-tester for EA's, Vivendi's, etc, buggy unfinished crap.

    And especially I _do_ see a problem with patches that screw up my saved games directly (I can thing of a dozen games, starting with Fallout 2, where applying the patch forced me to restart the whole damn game from the start), or indirectly (yay, for some RPG patches where they randomly altered the game balance and made all my character's skills useless, _and_ made a bunch enemies immune to physical damage... when I'm playing a fighter. What am I supposed to use there? Bad language? Time to start a new character again.)

    That's what I liked about console games so far: when I buy a game it's a _finished_ product. I can think of only exactly _two_ console games that ever needed a patch, out of the literally _hundreds_ I own. (And out of those two, one had a free replacement from the publisher, and the other "only" had multiplayer exploits, but was otherwise rock-solid and enjoyable as a single-player game.) The rest just worked.

    That's it. When I buy a console game, I _know_ it will work. From day one. I can randomly pick any game off the PS2 aisle, take it home, pop it in, and _know_ that it'll never crash, never fall into the void, and generally just work.

    You know why? Because the publisher knows it can't be patched, so they'll test the _hell_ out of it before release. And if they're running out of time or budget, they'll cancel a game, but never shove an unfinished piece of crap out the door.

    Yes, no software is perfect, but there's a _massive_ difference between having some minor exploit in an obscure sidequest (like being able to claim your reward twice) in a console game, and the utterly broken stuff that gets shipped on the PC on account that it can be patched later.

    That's what's wrong with "FIXING something" in the PC world. It's something that sounds _great_ in theory, but in practice it's what caused the deluge of unfinished buggy _crap_ shoved out the door untested. It just caused the "ah, it shows the starting menu, let's ship it. We can patch it later" mentality to run rampant.

    It caused such crap as, say, the German version of Victoria which literally could only show the startup menu as released. _Literally_. If you actually tried starting a campaign, the game threw a script _syntax_ error. Yes, a _syntax_ error. Not something even remotely blamable on drivers or hardware. It had a typo in the scripts and couldn't run on _any_ hardware.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
  38. Re:Big can of worms by jensen404 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I hate DRM in iTunes... There are only two advantages to iTunes, instant purchasing, and the ability to buy a single track.... In every other way they are inferior to CDs.

    I like Steam though. It gives me advantages over the CD version.
    1. I can download the game from any computer without the physical media.
    2. I never have to search for patches, and it is always up to date.
    3. I have gotten 3 expansions for free (HL2:Deathmatch, Opposing Force, and Blueshift) I will also be getting Lost Coast soon. They could give me free stuff without Steam, but this makes it easy.

    Then again, I've never had any significant problems with Steam. And I can understand some frustrations that some people have... but those problems haven't affected me.

  39. Re:Big can of worms by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Interesting
    They could give me free stuff without Steam

    Please get away from the idea that any commercial venture gives you, the consumer, anything "for free" - it simply does not happen.

    You incurred no additional charges for the expansions but you can bet your life they were factored into the original cost of the game you purchased & the fact that making those expansions "free" would generate more sales of the original game.

    Yes, I'm sure you feel that you benefitted from this but you need to remember that no successful business does anything unless it is likely to make the business more money - otherwise, the shareholders will start complaining & dumping their stock.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  40. I dunno... by Shaper_pmp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    To sum up Gabe's Statements

    Vista (unbelievably) might not be much good. (Shock, horror!)

    XBox 360, by not necessarily having a hard drive, makes console development, which traditionally can't depend on having hard drive, harder. That makes sense.

    Sony's fundamentally different chip design requires different programming techniques, and might be harder to port. Waaaah!

    However, this fundamentally different chip design isn't designed to speed up processing, distribute tasks more effectively or demonstrate an important and new approach to general-purpose computing... no, it's solely to ensure vendor lock-in to Sony. No, really.

    Steam solves all these problems (next-gen games being hard to develop, consoles lacking hard drives, different chip designs needing new skills, and Sony evilly locking us in to their own architecture), without in any way having anything to do with any of them. Steam good. Buy Steam. Buy it now.

    I'm not saying he doesn't have the odd point, but does anyone else find Gabe Newell's pronouncements more and more whiny? Far from the industry god that brought us HL, now he's verging on sounding pathetic. Oooh, help, help, next-gen development is hard... radically different processor architectures require different programming techniques... oooh... lacking non-standard console peripherals makes console programming hard... oooh.

    Gabe? We know. Sit down. It isn't going to change because you're whining about it in every interview you give.

    And the last paragraph really was the limit - suggesting Steam (a new distribution system) would really have any fucking efect on the actual problems he'd raised? It's a billing and download service, not a fucking hard-drive, and not a middleware layer for the PS3. What were they smoking in the interview, and WTF does a bloody Steam advert have to do with the actual issues they talked about?

    I'd say Gabe should come back to developing PC games, but frankly if a missing-or-not hard drive is twisting his nuts these days, god only knows what he'd think trying to develop for the heterogenous PC platform again...

    --
    Everything in moderation, including moderation itself
  41. Re:c'mon by marcansoft · · Score: 2, Informative

    At least on the PS3 (and before on the PS2) the point is not having several static threads doing work, but putting all the units in the system to work at once. So while the SPEs (similar to VUs on the PS2) churn out some 3d vertex translation list and do physics, the cpu can do game logic or some other stuff. The best optimization is definitely having everything running 100% at once, although I suspect what will usually happen (which makes life easier and is acceptable too) is that units operate in sync but simultaneously (e.g. the main cpu starts everything else each frame, and the all work at once.) There will be some wasted time as some unit will finish sooner, but being kept in sync simplifies programming. It is not like threads in a PC which operate asynchronously (unless you explicitly sync)