The People Vs. Common Sense

Thank God... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-10-03 01:25 · Score: 5, Insightful

"Have we made absolutely certain books and movies are not degrading the minds of our children and ... representation of violent and sexual acts are the cause of an increase of depraved sociopaths?"

Thank God there's nothing like that in the Holy Bible!

Re:Thank God... by gowen · 2005-10-03 01:45 · Score: 4, Insightful

And not all books, movies, and video games that revolve around violent themes promote violence. Bible stories are a great example of this.

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you. -- Deuteronomy 20:10-14"

It's the religion of peace, don't you know...

--
Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
Re:Thank God... by ThePilgrim · 2005-10-03 01:58 · Score: 5, Insightful

For its time, this was a very enlightend attitude. It fobade rape and plunder of a city that surrendered, and ensured that the none fighting population of a city that did not where protected. Other parts of the Bible say what can and can not be done with women taken in war, and forcing them to have sex with you was forbidden.

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Wouldn't it be nice if schools got all the money they wanted and the army had to hold jumble sales for guns
Re:Thank God... by MyDixieWrecked · 2005-10-03 02:06 · Score: 4, Funny

Thank the gods for monotheism.

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...spike
Ewwwwww, coconut...
Re:Thank God... by arkanes · 2005-10-03 02:15 · Score: 4, Insightful

All of the bad things in the world are attributed to sin.
This is a circular definition which is a classic example of poor reasoning. There are many things that I would consider bad in the Bible which are not attributed to sin, they're performed by "godly" people and in many cases directly by God himself. Its only if you define anything approved by God as good and anything he disapproves of as sinful that "all the bad things" are attributed to sin. Of course, since this is exactly what you do when you adopt a Christian moral code, a Christian studying the Bible will naturally take away a completely different lesson than a non-believer. For example, when God descends from Heaven in person to fight alongside the armies of Israel, slaughtering "everything that breathes" in the various towns that committed the horrible offense of not being Jewish, the Christian will take away the lesson that killing the enemies of the faith is an honorable act of devotion, while the unbeliever may well take away the lesson that Christians worship and bloodthirsty death god and want nothing to do with it.
The Bible does not teach that God helps out honest and good people, at least not on Earth. In fact, God likes to test and challenge his strongest believers, so he does stuff like have them sacrifice their children, or he kills their family (if you're wondering how this is different from how he treats unbelievers, you may have been reading the Bible from a critical rather than a religious perspective. Congratulations!), in an attempt to test the limits of the faith and love they have for Him. Unquestioning submission to divine authority is the primary lesson of the Bible!
Re:Thank God... by CosmeticLobotamy · 2005-10-03 02:21 · Score: 5, Insightful

For its time, this was a very enlightend attitude.

And if I ever find myself a few thousand years in the past, I'll encourage people to read it. But for now, I'm going to ask that people watch the much more enlightened "Sesame Street." All the best parts of the Bible, none of that crazy crap about raping people.
Re:Thank God... by paranode · 2005-10-03 02:37 · Score: 4, Insightful

I mean, you would expect a wise god to have figured this out.
God is only as wise as the people who created him, after all.
Re:Thank God... by Alcilbiades · 2005-10-03 02:52 · Score: 4, Interesting

Just as an aside. Slavery in the ancient world WAS NOT like slavery in America. It was not a permanent situation. Slaves were still paid, if menially, the children of slaves were not slaves but citizens of the country, city, state of the owner. Most slaves were taken from an enemey ravaged by war and would probably have starved to death if left in their own country considering it was standard practice to loot all food stores and destroy the rest during an invasion.

Slavery is not a terrible thing. And is it any different than paying someone such a small wage they never have the means to improve their life? The type of slavery that is bad is slavery just based off of race or religion. Which allows for absolutely no hope of ever being anything other than a slave. During the Roman empire 1 way for someone not born a citizen to become one was to become a slave. And yes there were reasons people would voluntarily sell themselves into slavery to become a citizen. Ask yourself if the people hoping the border into the EU or US wouldn't do the same?
Re:Thank God... by hibiki_r · 2005-10-03 03:01 · Score: 4, Insightful

Many countries out there are majoritarily christian, but they don't seem to have the American fixation with the Bible. The main reason for this is that most versions of christianity that can be found outside the US teach that you have to read the Bible understanding its historical context. No modern catholic priest will tell you that Earth was created in seven days or that Moses opened the Red Sea. Those same priests will also tell you about the process through which we ended up with only 4 Gospels, and how the modern Bible was standardized. If even old, conservatite catholic church takes the Bible as an infallible document, why should anyone?

The Bible is a dangerous book, but only for people that take it literally, thinking of it as an infallible source of knowledge. It just happens that America has more than its fair share of ignorants that refuse to understand history.
Re:Thank God... by radtea · 2005-10-03 03:42 · Score: 4, Insightful

Other parts of the Bible say what can and can not be done with women taken in war, and forcing them to have sex with you was forbidden.

False. Forcing them to have sex with you was explicitly permitted, and there were rules governing it:
Deuteronomy 21:11-14 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the LORD thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife. And it shall be, if thou have no delight in her, then thou shalt let her go whither she will; but thou shalt not sell her at all for money, thou shalt not make merchandise of her, because thou hast humbled her.

You will note that there is no mention anywhere of the woman's consent. Ergo, this is nothing but a permit to rape, so long as you let your rape victim mourn her dead family for a month. And if you didn't enjoy raping her it says you can kick her out of your house, but not sell her into slavery.

Look at it from her point of view: you've over-run her city, killed her family, taken her captive, left her alone for a month and then forced her to have sex with you. Forcing someone to have sex without their consent is rape. Rape by elaborate rules is still rape, and the Bible clearly and unequivocally condones it.

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Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
Re:Thank God... by atrocious+cowpat · 2005-10-03 05:55 · Score: 4, Funny

So is having children out of wedlock copyright infringement?

No, but it's probably a violation of that big, fat EULA (a.k.a. "The Bible").

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sig? Oh, that sig...

think about when you were a kid by tehwebguy · 2005-10-03 01:27 · Score: 5, Insightful

my parents didn't let the government raise me. none of my friends' parents let the government raise them. if my parents deemed an R rated movie or M rated game ok for me, regardless of my age, they let me view/play it. if they deemed a PG-13 move or T rated game NOT ok, they didn't.

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-- lol pwned

Re:think about when you were a kid by Kombat · 2005-10-03 01:52 · Score: 5, Interesting

That's all well and good, but the truth of the matter nowadays is that both parents want to work. Our parents did a good job raising us, telling us that if we want to make something of ourselves, we have to go to college. So we did. Both men and women. Then, in university, we met the person who would eventually become our spouse. After college, they both wanted jobs, to put this new, expensive education to work. After all, they're young, educated, enthusiastic, and unemcumbered by kids. So they both get great jobs, and buy a nice big house and each drive a BMW SUV.

A few years later, they want kids. Being used to getting what they want, they proceed to spawn. However, neither of them want to work, being new-age, enlightened folks. "Why should I automatically have to stay home? This is 2005, for cryin' out loud," says the woman. "Well, I'm not quitting my job," says the man, "I make more than you. It makes sense for me to keep working." They crunch the numbers and realize that they both must keep working, in order to continue being able to afford gassing up their BMW SUVs and heating/cooling their 3000 sq. ft. mansion.

Kids are inevitably born, and a minimum-wage, immigrant nanny is hired, or the kid is shipped off to daycare, where he/she learns questionable value and is largely emotionally devoid of the individual attention he/she needs and deserves. But mom and dad, still working 8 - 10 hour days, only have to deal with Junior for a few hours a day, so they don't notice that Junior is starting to resent them. Feeling guilty, they buy him whatever he wants (after all, they're still "rich" enough to do so). Junior wants a cell phone. "It'll let us reach him wherever he is," the parents reason, and buy him the phone. Junior wants a car. "It'll free us from having to shuttle him around all the time," reason the parents. Junior wants GTA3. "It'll keep him out of our hair for a few hours a day," say the parents.

So junior, having been raised by an immigrant with poor english and questionable credentials, learns to entertain himself, and finds that he can spend a very large amount of time hanging out with his friends doing whatever, and his parents won't nag him about it. He doesn't really like (or know) his parents anyway. Eventually, they get divorced. Junior plays GTA4 with his buddies in his basement while his parents are at work, and they laugh every time they run over a hooker. Then they go out under the deck behind the house and smoke a joint. Mom and Dad won't be home for hours anyway.

Welcome to 2005.

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Re:think about when you were a kid by sgtrock · 2005-10-03 03:04 · Score: 4, Insightful

This is the second time that I've seen this particular rant. I call BULLSHIT! My family's history shows this just isn't true, no matter how much some people would like to think it is.

My great-grandmother owned and ran a boarding house for miners in northern Minnesota for nearly 40 years. That was a 50 to 60 hour a day job. She also kept an eye on a series of young girls from the Old Country; giving them jobs as maids and helping them to meet and marry the better class of men on the Iron Range. The girls were her nieces, cousins, and daughters of friends of hers who stayed in Serbia. She got so good at it that many other families from other ethnic and cultural backgrounds came to her to act as matchmaker, too. Meanwhile, my grandfather worked 40-50 hours a week in the mines, then for the local school district as the general building supervisor/farmer.

They managed to put all 5 of their surviving kids through college. (4 died as infants or under 12. Not uncommon in the early 1900s. One of malnutrition in Serbia, one of polio, one of influenza, and one I'm not sure of.)

My grandfather was the first Serb in Minnesota to graduate from college. He was a full time teacher and principal, then a Red Cross senior instructor during WWII, then a principal again until illness laid him low around 1947.

My grandmother was a full time teacher during their entire marriage. She and my grandfather raised three kids who all graduated from college, even though they were hampered by being a single income family (with a very, very sick dad) for most of their high school and college years.

My mother was a full time RN and my father was a full time high school teacher. They raised three kids. All three of us went to college and got at least some certification. One of my sisters has a master's, one is close to getting her baccalaureate at the age of 42 with a 4.0 GPA, and then there's me. A geek who has a career as an ivory tower type enterprise architect working for one of the biggest banks in the country.

My second wife and I have 4 kids between us. All 4 kids live with us during the school year. I work full time, she works 25-30 hours/week two preteens and two teenagers. 3 of the 4 are B+ or better, and one is struggling, but maintaining a C-.

So. You have 4 consecutive generations of both parents working full time. Every single generation had two full time parents who also happened to work full time. Not one convict, not one welfare case, and not one deadbeat dad in 4 generations. I'm the unofficial family historian, so I've kept up with what's happening to the other branches of my family. The same holds true for all of them as well, and many if not most of them are either two full time parents. We do have a few single income, single parent families. Those kids are also doing quite well in school.

STOP ASSUMING THAT YOU CAN'T GIVE YOUR KIDS ALL THE LOVE AND DISCIPLINE THAT THEY NEED IF YOU WORK FULL TIME! It's simply NOT TRUE!
Re:think about when you were a kid by mattkime · 2005-10-03 03:08 · Score: 4, Funny

>>Hate my opinion? Criticize my photography [kombat.org].

I looked at your photos, can I get a date with your sister?

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Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
Re:think about when you were a kid by Sax+Maniac · 2005-10-03 05:17 · Score: 4, Insightful

I didn't read the grandparent that way.
Just because two parents work does not mean that the kids can't be well-raised. My wife worked in daycare for a while, and saw plenty of the "BMW" couples described above. She also saw plenty of two-job families with no BMWs and well-adjusted kids. The two are not mutually exclusive.
The difference is the first couple doesn't really care about their kids-- they're just fashion accessories. They think they do, but the amount of attention they willingly give them tells the real story. It happens more than you think. Congrats that your family didn't fall into that trap, but there are plenty others that do.

--
I can explanate how to administrate your network. You must configurate and segmentate it, so it can computate.

It's a political game by theantipop · 2005-10-03 01:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

Blaming TV and movies isn't going to get you votes. Almost all polticians are out to appease the voters, not solve problems. Not only do the television and movie industries have huge lobbies, these are two things nearly every parent enjoys themselves. It's much easier to target video games as an evil when no parent understands what it is all about. And when as a politician you have the opportunity to spin your wheels over something and make it look like you are saving the children, you take it or someone else will.

Re:It's a political game by Kombat · 2005-10-03 01:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

Almost all polticians are out to appease the voters, not solve problems.

Is that the fault of the politicians appeasing their consituents, or the voters who value style over substance? You can't blame the politicians for playing the game. They have to work within the system the people have constructed, or they won't be rewarded with subsequent terms.

--
Like woodworking? Build your own picture frames.
Re:It's a political game by aussie_a · 2005-10-03 01:51 · Score: 4, Interesting

Way to go at taking away any responsibility on the politicians part. I'm not saying you don't have a point, but the way your post is worded it's like the politicians aren't to blame at all, and it's all the fault of the ignorant voters.

Oh it's not the politician's fault for lying. It's the fault of the people for believing him.

I'm not saying you don't have a point, what I'm saying is politicians are partly responsible (I'd say the greater part myself).
Re:It's a political game by Manitcor · 2005-10-03 02:26 · Score: 4, Interesting

Somtimes I wonder if its not the media itself that perpatuates this witch hunt. After all other forms of entertainment such as TV, movies and music all stand to gain from a games market that is relagated to toddlers and kids. Its the fact that games are so popular with the 18-34 crowd that is driving them crazy as we are spending our dollars and our attention to something other than thier passive drivel. Oddly enough as people freak out the biggest spenders on video games are people who are above the maximum age range anyway. Little kids playing GTA are actually in the miniority as I understand it. The parents smart enough to keep stuff with obiously bad titles out of thier kids hands of course arent going to complain. Only those who were dumb enough to think a game with a title like "Slash Killer Gore IV" is somehow wholesome for thier 12 year old to play.

For the most part its this miniority that is at the hands of all this anti-game stuff, unfortnatly they are also the most vocal and of course the media just loves to run away with any oppertuntiy they can for a story coupled with an oppertunity to bash an opposing medium that is eating into thier bottom line more every year.

--
"Don't mess with him, he taunts the happy fun ball."

Oh Please ... by Anonymous Coward · 2005-10-03 01:28 · Score: 5, Funny

"Have we made absolutely certain books and movies are not degrading the minds of our children and video games and all computerized representation of violent and sexual acts are the cause of an increase of depraved sociopaths??"

I have been an avid video gamer for 30 years and it has not ... [just a sec] ... Sorry, my mom just came in my room with my breakfast, I tell her to knock but she just doesn't listen

... anyway back to what I was saying, I've been playing video games religiously for 30 years and it has not affected my social development in the least

Thesaurus whore by OnoTadaki · 2005-10-03 01:32 · Score: 5, Insightful

"visualize the poignant tide of human thought", "While endeavoring to bequeath our exclusive equities unto the world, we are often chagrined by remonstrations..." It's sad when someone has to turn to looking up every second word in a thesaurus to sound like they have an intelligent arguement.

Mommy knows what's right for you by rbochan · 2005-10-03 01:32 · Score: 4, Interesting

The band Scatterbrain, aka Ludichrist, had a song called Goodbye Freedom, Hello Mom about 15 years back, sounds like they weren't far off...

We'll ban that book and T.V. show,
Forget that movie, no you can't go.
Can't sell that record, don't like that song.
We know what's right we know what's wrong.
Can't have abortions, what's yours ain't yours,
Just obey the laws.
Too young to drink, say no to drugs ...

Bikers wear helmets, cars safety belts
You might hurt yourself.
We're watching out, We're watching out
We're watching out for you...

Well the new right's been at work some time
They ain't so new no more
Can you hear 'em knockin'
Knockin' down your door.
1984 has past, forget about Big Brother,
Welcome to the 90's where the government's your
mother. ...

They'll tell you - don't do that.
They'll try and tell you - it's for your own good.
Big Mother is watching you
Mother's protecting you
Mommy knows what's right for you ...

Goodbye Freedom, Hello Mom
The Bill of Rights just disappeared
There it is - whoops it's gone!
Goodbye Freedom, Hello Mom
All your rights just disappeared
Everybody stay calm. ...

Good stuff :)

--
...Rob
The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.

Re:Video Games = Child brain rot by Intron · 2005-10-03 01:34 · Score: 5, Insightful

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. -- Attributed to Socrates by Plato

--
Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.

Nicely written how? by analog_line · 2005-10-03 01:35 · Score: 4, Insightful

The entire article is in dire need of an editor. "Nicely written" indeed...for an 15 year old. Myriad spelling mistakes any spellchecker worth a damn should've caught, run on sentences, a writer far too obsessed with his thesaurus, and writing that is obviously intended to sound "important" but ends up sounding "pretentious."

Low hanging fruit... by faloi · 2005-10-03 01:36 · Score: 5, Insightful

In the 80's, it was the PMRC under Tipper Gore that was leading children away from the path of suicide and darkness brought on by music. Easy target, musicians don't tend to contribute as much to political campaigns as Hollywood types. Life was good. Then the "extreme" music of the day became more normal, and all we've got is some warning labels. Aside from Lieberman during the 2000 elections, I don't know of any politicians really speaking out on it these days.

New target possibilities? Lessee... Video games. They're easy. P2P technologies... That has the bonus of getting your Hollywood and corporate buddies to apprieciate you more AND gives you something that doesn't require a lot of money or work on your part. Ain't politics grand?

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"It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education." -Albert Einstein

The Real Question... by zev1983 · 2005-10-03 01:39 · Score: 5, Insightful

The real question to ask is if there actually has been an increase of "depraved sociopaths", or if it is meerly percieved to be so because news coverage now picks out these rare incidents wherever and whenever they happen and sensationalize it and parade it around for weeks to get rating. Scaring people enhances news ratings.

State of Michigan by magarity · 2005-10-03 01:42 · Score: 5, Insightful

From TFA:

Allow me to present Michigan SB-0416, the latest attempt by the American government

The Michigan state government is not the same as "the American government" which would be the label for the Federal government. This is a good example of something that individual states *do* have the ability to regulate even if a lot of us think it's silly. All the people in Michigan who don't like it should direct complaints to their state legislator and not blame a vague "American government". All people who *don't* live in Michigan should direct comments to their respective state legislators insisting that our state should not enact similar.

deja vu all over again by Quirk · 2005-10-03 01:43 · Score: 4, Interesting

"The Greek philosopher Plato studied under Socrates. Plato complained about the youth of the day, also. "What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?"

and from another time

"I see no hope for the future of our people if they are dependent on frivolous youth of today, for certainly all youth are reckless beyond words... When I was young, we were taught to be discreet and respectful of elders, but the present youth are exceedingly wise [disrespectful] and impatient of restraint" (Hesiod, 8th century BC).

When you're too old to know what it is to be young, it seems, you'll inevitably subscribe to an orthodoxy that sees children as wild and at risk of being irrevocably corrupted.

Kids are leaky hormone sacs. What you see them up to in public is nothing compared to what they do in private.

--
"Academicians are more likely to share each other's toothbrush than each other's nomenclature."
Cohen

This just in... by ShoobieRat · 2005-10-03 01:51 · Score: 5, Insightful

A new study concludes that parents should parent their ****ing kids!

If you have kids, they're your responsibility, parent them. If you don't want to do that, don't have kids. It's not society's fault if your kid is a mindless twit who's never been brought up correctly.

Stop punishing the rest of us for the faults of dumbasses who can't teach their kids right from wrong. Decent society does not come from rules and restrictions. It comes from doing yer damn job as a parent.

Ignoring the crime rate by ApharmdB · 2005-10-03 01:52 · Score: 4, Insightful

Who is it that has successfully framed this time as an era of high crime? Crime is at a 30 year low.

Just because the media likes to report stories about people doing bad things to other people doesn't mean it is happening more often. Information about far away places is more readily available these days and we are just hearing about it more often because we apparently like to hear about it. They wouldn't report it if it didn't get them higher ratings.

the bible is getting old by Anonymous Coward · 2005-10-03 01:58 · Score: 4, Insightful

Maybe you can explain why christian ethics directly contribute to the problem?

That is not the point...

If one thinks we should ban violent media to protect children, then we should ban the bible. The hypocrasy of those who would ban games and "unworthy" books while allowing "worthy" books is the point.

Additionally, the bible has been causally related, more often and more demonstrably, to more killings than every video game on the market combined. From the crusades to psychopaths, the bible is often used as justification for violent acts...

Media hysteria by redelm · 2005-10-03 02:02 · Score: 4, Insightful

The deep irony is that no-one would _dare_ censor "the news". Yet it is precisely this hysterical sensationalism that I'm most reluctant my kids watch. Simpsons & South Park may be caustic and tasteless, but are hardly as damaging. Network news is not, and I need to have long discussions with my kids afterwards to undo the damage.

Frankly, I do not blame the media owner or employees. Both are too inept. They just chase ratings. The fault lies with human nature, or at least the many people who are overcautious or like being scared.

Re:Two wrongs do not make a right by exi1ed0ne · 2005-10-03 02:11 · Score: 4, Insightful

It's not society's job to determine what's detrimental to the well being of minors - it's the parents. Laws and regulations will never make a dent in behavior. However, it does make for a nice bank account ballance for the lawyers.

Laws and regulations just shift responsability from the one's that have the most direct impact in a child's life (the parents) to "society". For some reason everyone thinks it's better whan it is "our" problem.

--
Pessimists.net - as if life wasn't depressing enough.

Idiot. by torstenvl · 2005-10-03 02:14 · Score: 4, Insightful

From the phrase "Allow me to present Michigan SB-0416, the latest attempt by the American government..." I was turned off by the lack of journalistic professionalism.

Rhetoric is for propaganda, not news. Get your facts straight before you start "reporting." Oh, and uh... look up Federalism while you're at it.

Re:the bible-bashing is getting old... by Evil+Grinn · 2005-10-03 02:27 · Score: 4, Insightful

I think the parent's point was that often the people who fight against violent games etc which supposedly make children/adults violent are the same people who say America has lost it's 'good old fashioned Christian values'.

But this is false. Some of the anti-violence crowd, it is true, are indeed the same old "family values" people who've been boycotting Disney since the 1990's over gay rights issues.

There are two completely different groups of people trying to take away your violent games. They may currently be allied against you, but eventually they will turn on each other, as they are still natural enemies.

The other ones are plain old socialists and hippies and other liberals. Violent games are bad because they go against the peace-and-love worldview. These people who want to remove violence from culture and ban guns and ban even remotely violent sports like (American) football... the guns and the football is where they part company with the right wingers.

You see the same two groups opposing porn. One hates it because it's a sin, the other hates it because it's sexist. Never forget or fail to note which one you are arguing against at any particular time.

--
where there's fish, there's cats

Re:Video Games = Child brain rot by nine-times · 2005-10-03 02:30 · Score: 4, Interesting

I wish I had time to search for a quote, but Socrates also bashes poetry and art for being corrupting forces in a couple dialogues (notably the Republic, IIRC). POETRY. Yes, old people are blaming video games for corrupting the youth. A few short years ago, they were blaming music. Elvis used to be evil. Well, thousands of years ago, they were blaming *poetry*! And not Jack Kerouac poetry, but things like the Illiad. You know, that boring stuff that they make you read in school? Hell, Socrates was executed for corrupting the youth with *philosophy*.

Re:Video Games = Child brain rot by kamapuaa · 2005-10-03 02:49 · Score: 4, Informative

The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers. -- Attributed to Socrates by Plato

On the other hand, the youth of Socrates' time were suspicious of Democracy, and after the Peloponnesian War set up a fascist government that attempted to kill remnants of Democracy, as well as anybody who disagreed with their rule. Government head Critias was Socrates' associate and pupil and widely hated by Athenians, and his relation (and the entire movement's relation) to Socrates was probably the reason Socrates was later executed by the state. This relation to a much-hated movement would continue to be held against Socrates, much like (say) Mao's role in the Cultural Revolution would weigh negatively on anybody studying his writings or poetry.

Plato idolized Socrates, and was using the quote to disassosiate Socrates from a reign of terror that everybody hated. Without knowing your history you seem to interpret it as "ah shucks, even Socrates 2500 years ago could be an old codger!" which isn't at all the case, Plato wasn't one to tell gee-whiz anecdotes.

--
Slashdot: providing anti-social weirdos a soapbox, since 1997.

Re:Very nicely written... by Articuno · 2005-10-03 02:57 · Score: 5, Funny

He used two "?" and you want *more* punctuation ?

--
So Long and Thanks for All the Fish!

The Government is not a member of my family... by pgnas · 2005-10-03 03:21 · Score: 4, Interesting

Government imposition is becoming increasingly more prevelant in our society. "We must protect the children..." is cited in most or all of the cases. Well, I realize that this has been said 99,000 times alerady, but I repeat: WHERE ARE THE PARENTS?

Children need to be governed and protected by their parents, not the Government! In most cases you will find that the root of the problem are the parent(s), sure, there are genetic dispositions that might make someone more succeptable to commiting violent acts, but for the most part, the way they deal and react in every situation is learned at a very early age and age where most kids are not playing video games. Unfortunately, the kids are thrown into daycare and the parents are too busy working late so then can pay off their $40,000 SUV. So, realy parenting is out of the question..

Where are the parents when these kids are playing the games? The kids are in front of their baby sitter, a video game or the television!

Enter the Governement..."We'll take it from here"

Parents! Pay attention to your kids! spend some time with them instead of shuffling them off to soccer, ballet, etc... and spend some time with them. What a simple concept!

It's not my fault!

What a common theme on our society, I got a question, if it's not your fault, than whose is it?

"It's your fault, or his fault, or her fault, or their fault!"

Enter some government official with an agenda ready to make hasty decisions and judgements about a situation without completely understanding it. "I dont' care whose fault it is, your both wrong"

The problem and the blame and the responsibility needs to be the parents and it is not the Governements job to raise our children.

Poor Video Game Developers...yeah, right!

Here is where I will more than likely get slammed, citing; "You can't be on both sides of the fence", well, yes I can.

There are some real crap video games out there! Grand Theft Auto is Useless. I've played it, I am a gamer, it is completely unecessary killing and violence and everything else rolled into a first person experience. Children should never be allowed near this kind of crap, however,it it not the Governments' job to decide this, it is the PARENTS.

Senator Dinosaur

Lastly, I will make this short and to the point' People over the age of 40 should not be able to make or propose ANY legislation that involves technology! More often than not, they do not understand it, they don't understand the implications, and they are incapable of making an educated decision, so they apply their old school, antiquated ideals and sometimes, bring innovation to a screeching halt.

When we kill then, we're good and holy. by khasim · 2005-10-03 03:26 · Score: 5, Insightful

When they kill us, they're sinning heathens.

The critical point is ... don't define the action as "good" or "bad" ... define the actors.

A "good" man is NOT one who does not kill.

A "good" man is one who believes in "god" and kills according to his belief as to whom "god" wants killed (as long as the rest of the winning society believes the same).

A "psychotic" man is one who believes in "god" and kills according to his belief as to whom "god" wants killed (but the rest of the winning society does not believe the same).

A "bad" man is one who refuses to kill as "god" dictates OR who kills the "good" people because he is fighting for the wrong "god".

Witness wars and executions for real world examples of the above.

Right - you're smart, and we're simple-minded by anomaly · 2005-10-03 03:29 · Score: 4, Informative

If you're looking to dismiss people of faith as simple-minded peons who have no understanding of logic and who rapidly embrace hypocrisy, then your understanding of that verse is sufficient.

It's true that the King James Version of the english Bible translates that passage "Thou shalt not kill" but the NIV, NKJV, NASB and others translate that passage "Thou shalt not murder."

There's a distinct difference between murder and killing. God ordered the Israelites to kill the people in the promosed land because they rejected God and did what was evil. There was no hope of their turning to doing what was right, and God knew that the only outcome of leaving them alive would be to draw many of the Israelites away from God.

You don't have to agree with what God ordered them to do, but there's no direct contradiction between Exodus 20:13 and God's orders to His people.

Respectfully,
Anomaly

--
But Herr Heisenberg, how does the electron know when I'm looking?

Re:Right - you're smart, and we're simple-minded by ifwm · 2005-10-03 04:10 · Score: 5, Funny

"people of faith as simple-minded peons who have no understanding of logic and who rapidly embrace hypocrisy"

Ah, I see you've met them.

Re:Very nicely written... NOT by briareus · 2005-10-03 05:00 · Score: 5, Insightful

Thankfully, the pretentious writing slacks off after the first two paragraphs or so. It would be nice if people would bother to learn that:

1. Media is the plural form of medium.
2. Effect and affect are not interchangeable.
3. Use spell check! How hard is this?
4. ...and cut it out with the pretentious writing. You're not fooling anyone when your writing is chock-full of grammatical and spelling errors -- even if you try to throw in a fistful of PSAT words.

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