Slashdot Mirror
Dell's Open PC Costs More Than Windows Box
fist_187 writes "In this article at The Register, they show thath Dell's Open PC costs more than a PC shipped with Windows XP. That's right, getting a PC with a blank hard drive costs more than the same hardware running Windows XP." From the article: "As it turns out, Dell's sales staffers have a secret web page for the product that you can't find with normal search tactics. A kind lass we'll call 'M' pointed us here. On this site, Dell presents a couple different versions of the mysterious E510n. The lowest-end system starts at $774 and is exactly like the boxes above - including the free flat panel - except it has 512MB of memory. For some reason, Dell told reporters that the box starts at $849 - yet another one of the odd sales tactics surrounding this "open source" kit. [Following the publication of our story, Dell raised the price of the PC back up to $849. See the sales pages below for the original $774 price comparisons.]"
Must be that new math I keep hearing about...
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
So.. the logical thing to do is buy the PC with Windows and then resell the Windows license. Or is that not allowed?
chown -R us ~you/base
Heh. Nothing like telling a bunch of open source guys about a bare drive'ed dell to get them to hustle over and check it out.
Look behind you...
That's pretty much a sequence of numbers, when there's no guarantee that the other person won't use it? Kinda like buying a CD-Key game with open packaging... Not something I'd recommend.
Look behind you...
Computers with Windows XP are stuffed to the roof with trialware and services that kick back the cost. Those with empty hard drives are, well, empty. What's so hard to grasp here?
My other Beowulf cluster is... er...
Seriously. If there's one company in the world which would win an obfuscated price contest, it's Dell. Circuitous menus that seem to simultaneously tweak prices and options depending on who you are and where you're from is deeply suspect. You never get the actual price on anything until you're ready to punch in your credit card number. Advertised prices are pure fiction. I cannot imagine any reason for being so inconsistent about pricing. It's dishonest. I no longer do business with them.
No, it's been that way for a while. The FreeDOS boxes have always (as long as I remember) been more expensive than an equivalent box with XP.
I don't know what kind of deal they have with Microsoft to make that happen, but I suspect it is more than just the AOL and McAfee add-ons that they can bundle with XP.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
A lot of IT departments have neither the staff nor the patience to build each PC on their own. Considering the tiny profit to be made off PC building, it's much more sensible to focus on projects, rollouts, etc. Tack on the fact that most IT folks don't want to spend hours trying to RMA failed mobos from random vendors, and Dell/IBM/whoever else make a lot of sense in the long run.
Still, that doesn't mean we enjoy dealing with their tech support folks. What idiots!
They should offer a third option to get the system with everything including windows as a 90 day trial. That would be the cheapest system possible!
The PC with the blank hard drive appears to ship with a combo cd/dvd-rom and a fax modem. The PC with windows does not list these features.
Dell's business units are so odd. You can go on their web site and find 3 different prices for the exact same thing depending on which unit you go in, and I mean home, small business, and large. I have ordered from all over that site for personal stuff, it cracks me up sometimes. I would be interested in why that happens. I have asked our Dell rep at work, but he couldn't really give a good answer either.
I kid, I kid.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Dell computer are like American cars, you can always find a deal, you will be crazy to buy a Dell computer, any Dell, Desktop or Laptop, at the official price; they always have a ton of rebates and other "special" or coupon codes all the time.
For instance right now they are running a sale on the excellent UltraSharp 2005FPW 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor for $394.35.
A good place to find about theses deal is at this page: http://www.gottadeal.com/Deals/Store/dellhome
You'll never figure out Dell's pricing policies for any given piece of hardware. It will change randomly from moment to moment. Just when you think you know how to get the best deal, they'll completely change on you. Hell, we effectively resell Dell PCs, and even *WE* can't get a straight price from our rep. Fuck, their corporate customers who buy thousands of units a year don't know how much a PC will cost until they actually get charged for it.
Personally, I use their pricing changes as a source of entropy to help generate cryptographic keys.
Or, if the logic of Dell is to prevail, you can sell blank versions of the same CDs for a slight premium, like $275.
They're doing this because they're going to sell less of these PCs. I mean, honestly, how many people are going to buy a Dell who have the intelligence to use Linux or another OS? Very few. I'm willing to be that 99% of the /. community or anybody who would potentially want to buy this PC already builds there own. Am I right or wrong here?
I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
Lets face it a PC with XP is anybody's. I wonder if this system comes in a white box to indicate its virgin status.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
I buy ~250k/year of Dell PCs. We do not have the time, staffing or patience to sort through myriad component problems. They are all Dell Optiplex and Latitude machines with three year warranties and Complete Care. If it breaks, it's Dell's problem. We just don't have time for anything else. If some shop has the time to screw with this stuff, they have too many IT staff and are pissing away money for nothing.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
One Page ad free version of article:
_ pc/print.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
It doesn't matter. First sale doctrine says you can re-sell anything someone else has sold to you. That includes your software, no matter what some silly sticker on your computer says. The only party facing any restrictions is Dell; their contract with Microsoft says they have to bundle the cheap OEM version of Windows with a computer and not sell it separately. The user is free to do with his copy as he wishes.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
E510n -- at first it looked like an attempt to say something clever in leet, like "Easy-on," but apparently it's just a numbering scheme coincidence.
Even though Windows has a lot of cost - it adds negative value.
Since Dell (and any company looking to please its customers) will price things based on the value the customers receive, it makes perfect sense that they have to compensate the end user for the negative value Windows inflicts on them (pain, grief, anguish, suffering).
(seriously, however - On the Windoze box there's a bunch of third-party crap that Dell was paid to put on there - I know, I worked for a company that paid OEMs to pre-install crippleware in the hopes for upgrading -- and in effect subsidized the windows boxes. I suspect this is what's happening, and Dell's just passing on the subsidy).
Have you actually done a cost/benefit analysis? Have you done so for every other IT shop on the planet?
The justification ought to be based on the answer to the question "Is the amount we would pay Dell (or another company) more, or less, than the cost of the hardware plus salary for someone to build/maintain the machines?". If it's less, it would make sense to do it - if it's more, it makes sense to go the Dell (or another company) route.
Simply saying "If some shop has the time to screw with this stuff, they have too many IT staff and are pissing away money for nothing" doesn't cut it - there is no way that you can know that all IT shops would be pissing money away by doing that.
Hmm, Google does screw around with this stuff. Perhaps they have too many IT staff (although it is their business). Whether or not they piss away money can be debated when their profits triple next, or they go bust, whichever comes soonest.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
So couple of reasons. One is simple: The DMCA. Your OEM copy of Windows will not work on a non-Dell box. To make it do so, you have to modify it and such modifications would violate the DMCA. Though I disagree with the law it currently is the law and thus if you violate it you can be subject to criminal charges.
The other is that even without that, software is kind of special. When you use software, you actually make a copy of it to your computer, something not necessiarly permitted by copyright law. Thus the permission comes in the form of an EULA, to which you must agree or you don't have that right. Well the EULA restricts this.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
Now like I said, all that's murkeir, might be that provision of the EULA isn't enforcable. However it's all moot, given the DMCA. You can't sell your copy of Windows using the provided key, it won't work, the key is Dell only. To modify Windows to use a different key is to break the DMCA which, retarded as it is, is the law.
You didn't buy it, you licensed it.
A "copy" is defined by federal copyright law (17 USC 101) as a physical object in which a computer program is fixed, such as a hard drive or an optical disc. The "owner" of a physical object is defined by state law and is generally set up by a transaction called a "sale". Combine these and you get the "owner of a copy", who retains specific rights backed up by defenses under 17 USC sections 109 and 117 as well as fit-for-purpose provisions of state law. In order for the primary end user in a residential environment to not be the "owner of a copy", you generally have to have a transaction that is not a "sale". Courts interpreting state law, especially the Uniform Commercial Code, have tended to interpret a retail transaction in which somebody carries a box and cash to the cashier, sets them down, and walks off with the box and a receipt, as a "sale". See Softman v. Adobe.
What legal precedent backs up your position? Or do you claim that the install package is encrypted and that the installer is an access control mechanism designed to condition access to the work on "authority of the copyright owner" under 17 USC 1201 and in turn condition such "authority" on acceptance of additional terms after the sale?
The only reason to buy Dell is their service - heck, they ended up giving me a new laptop 1.5 years after my old one because of issues I was having...
I wouldn't ever consider building a PC for a client these days. Why build for someone as a consultant? You're just asking for trouble. Machines have fairly high failure rates no matter what brand or components you use. I'd rather point people to Dell so that when something breaks, I'm covered. =) Besides, with PC prices the way they are, how much can you save your clients anyway? Especially once you factor in the cost of your time.
I guess Microsoft Windows has really become a tax, when you see manufacturers doing similar things to what they do to avoid paying a duty and convert that to profit instead of passing the savings unto the customer.
For all we know, it's supposed to be the other way around, because Microsoft shouldn't be offering the nice and heavy OEM discount to Dell anymore since they're violating Microsoft law by not selling PCs exclusively with Windows. Of course, most probably Dell is doing this on purpose, the ulterior motive being to put some pressure on Microsoft or other PC manufacturers.
It's a strange world we live in...
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
The FreeDOS boxes have always (as long as I remember) been more expensive than an equivalent box with XP.
I don't understand why this is allowed to begin with. Wouldn't this be considered Microsoft (or Dell) "dumping" their operating system if they make consumers pay more to not get it. With the computers shipping with an operating system out of the mailing box, an alternative OS has a harder time even getting a trail run on the machine. Even if someone was specifically interested in an alternative OS, they would buy the Windows-preinstalled machine because it costs less. Then, well they could reformat the drive and install SuSe, Linspire, ect. But the machine is ready to go right now...
The reason the 'open' box costs more than a XP machine is partially because of the amount of pre-installed crap...er...I mean *sweet* trial software which subidizes the cost of the hardware.
Hasn't anyone here bought one of those unbelievably cheap 2.8Ghz/256mb/free 17" flatscreen/etc for about $400 after rebate? $400!
If I were to newegg (verb) the same parts and build a machine from scratch it would be more than $400...not including the cost of the XP license (who knows what Dell pays for those anyway)
For those who haven't bought or had to deal with one of these, it's a pain in the arse. It will take you about an hour to clean the system enough for a reasonably fast boot.
My experience with Dell is that they have VERY tricky prices. Never buy something from Dell until you check all the coupon sites. Dell plays the game of having several divisions that price the same items differently. Prices sometimes fluctuate at each division more than once in a month.
Basically, I have found Dell to be a very abusive company. The only reason I would buy from them is if they have something not available from somewhere else, such as the 2405FPW 24 inch LCD monitor made by Samsung and BenQ.
If you do business with Dell, get a written warranty.
Be careful about Dell employees. They sometimes act for themselves and against the interest of their company. Talking to Dell is like going into a rough neighborhood.
My experience is that Dell is undergoing the social breakdown that is happening in other parts of the United States. One big example of the general breakdown is discussed in this transcript and video: Ike Was Right About War Machine. ("Ike" is former U.S. President and former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe General Dwight D. Eisenhower.)
See also Andy Rooney speaks out against the war in Iraq.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
May I direct you to Exclusive rights in copyrighted works. I quote: "(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;" Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with EULAs. Not permitted by doctrine of first sale. Rentals are specifically named as an exclusive right. The console game companies want to license that right, the PC game companies do not. That is all.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
That's beside the point. The point is that this shows evidence of the "Microsoft Tax". You're paying Dell for Windows whether you get it or not. Maybe I already have a Windows license in my home and one is enough. Thinking like that of your post is what would seemingly validate the MS Tax, and contribute to the misconception that they are somehow owed money for each PC bought.
Whitebox PCs should be a commodity that any manufacturer can sell. There is no reason to believe that a whitebox PC will have Windows illegally installed on it. Would you be making the same argument if RedHat managed to convince Dell that every Windows PC should have the negotiated price of a RHEL license included in the price because people may install it on their machines?
Can someone please explain to me one thing:
Why was I told, by a Dell sales representative (our key account manager, actually), that "if I wanted to have a Matrox dual-DVI G650 card with my computers, I would *have* to accept that they came with WinXP preinstalled"??? I asked back, what does a piece of hardware have to do with any piece of software. And why on earth do they offer (now, but not when we placed our first batch of orders) a dual-DVI ATI card, for about half the price, WITHOUT requiring a WinXP installation?
Let me try to get this straight:
- I order a clean PC, and tell them I want a Matrox G650 card preinstalled
---> No can do, if you want the Matrox card preinstalled, you need XP preinstalled.
- I order a clean PC, and tell them I want an ATI Xwhatever card preinstalled
---> No problem, do you want FreeDOS with that?
And to top it off: I COULD have the Matrox card, OF COURSE, but then I'd have to install it myself.
Yea right, install a frikkin' gfx card in 60 computers, thereby ruining much of my warranty - up yours.
Puzzled, I am.
Love over Gold.
Having worked in the Dell management at Round Rock in Texas I can tell you that the production steps for an identical system without Windows XP are exactly the same, except software installation and a brief test of the system and harddrive which are basically unnecessary because all of the components have been tested already extensively. The actual production cost is exactly the same as a Windows machine minus the licensing fees(between $130 and $150 total) for Windows and other software and the labor for software installation and testing(perhaps $10). This means the price tag for a system without Windows is approximately $150 less. Any claims to the contrary are not true. What's happening is that there is still alot of internal politics and pro-Microsoft lobbying and brainwashing going on and is has been suggested not to pass on the cost savings of a Windows-free system to the consumer and we have been urged to deny that systems without Windows are saving us production cost in order to make them unattractive.
Microsoft still has alot of control over our company politics which manifests itself in many ways e.g. anyone in sales is being instructed when asked about Windows-free or Linux systems to answer in a firm and confident manner: "I have never heard about that." and "There is no demand for that." This is the reason that in order to even get a Windows refund or merchandise credit the customer needs to speak to someone who is above the first level of sales. Sorry, but that's Dell politics for you. Fortunately things have started to change but very slowly.
I have been buying from Dell in numerous capacities for years, and it is rare that you cannot find the same thing at diiferent prices depending on how you play with the site. There are different pricing models depending on consumer or business even on the same models. It get even more fun when you realize some of the business models are identical to consumer models, they just have different names and the base state is slightly different. Customize up and match them (if you know how to decode dells mobo obsfucation) and Voila!!! 3 or 4 different prices for the exact same thing. Now If you are a Dell prefered buyer you are supposed to get the discount you arranged right? HAHAHAHAHA not if you look!
---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
No. This just proves that Microsoft is paying Dell to jack up the price on systems without Windows on it. There are few other explanations.
Dell should want to make money, selling the box for *more* when it does *not* have the Windows tax doesn't make much sense.
Don't you realize what Dell is really selling? Support. People buy those machines because when something gets stupid on it, they'll take care of it. The spend most of their time talking dumb users through un-screwing personal settings, removing software they just put on, fixing TWAIN drivers for their scanners... that sort of stuff. To that end, they've got thousands of people trained exhaustively in XP support. There's an economy of scale in it, they're rigged up for remote admin of the machines, and have a huge infrastructure already built up to deal with it economically. Now, take a machine with Distro X on it, firewalled in some unconventional way, running some oddball... what? rootkit? Who knows. If a Dell tech (at a corporate cost of $Plenty per hour) has to stew about how to determine if the onboard video hardware they provided is faulty, or it's some distro's slightly broken compile of something... any and all margin they've made on selling that box is now gone (along with the cross marketing they can do with AOL, or MSN, or any other stuff that many of their end users end up buying).
It's not a "Windows tax" - it's simply the thing they most often (by overwhelming numbers) provide to their customers, and it's what they're rigged up - logistically and contractually - to support. Ask a typical network support tech what he's likely to end up charging to deal with a PC that for some reason isn't spooling print jobs correctly - and then mention to him (since he's already assumed you're talking about Windows, and he knows which of three or four things to look for) that it's Linux machine. Maybe Mandriva, maybe Fedora. Maybe SuSE. Which version? Not sure. Etc. Completely different set of skills, different overhead needed. All of that has to be taken into account when Dell puts a price, in advance, on the machine.
Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
Wow.
It seems you need to hire an operations manager.
You could be saving a little bit of up front cost to just piss away tens of thousands of dollars a month because you can't justify the cost of labor. Sure if you had the time, I'd warrant that you would have peformed a true cost-benifit analysis of maintianing the machines in-house. But by you're own words "We just don't have time for anything else."
Sad truth is, you probably don't have time to properly account for the the time and money you waste by coordinating with Dell, and I'll wager that your company (by it's size in computer demand) is large enough that it's already utilizing resources just to track and coordinate the problem machines.
Sure, it might only cost you a percent or two of profit, and changing could be the wrong decision (depending on the data you collect), but even a COMPUTER SCIENTIST knows that basic business classes provide ample opportunity for justifying decisions with real resons (cost / savings) than the cop-out, "We just don't have time for anything else."
In Germany, there was a similar case a few years ago. A dealer unbundled PC hardware and Microsoft OEM licenses and sold them separately. Microsoft sued him and lost. At the Bundesgerichtshof to boot, which is the highest judical authority in non-constitutional cases. That makes the decision rather final.
IIRC, the court explicitly applied the german equivalent of the "First Sale" doctrine, the EULA mumbo-jumbo nonwithstanding.
C - the footgun of programming languages
I will never, under any conceivable circumstances, ever need it. I have as much use for a Windows license as your average vegan has for a nice, juicy steak - and every bit as much desire to have one delivered to my house.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
"So, I guess this just goes to show you Linux losers that Windows does have lower TCO after all..."
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
I work as an IT consultant, often helping small buisness purchase computers. Dell's pricing has been a nightmare forever. NOTHING is the same price ever. Identical Latitude and Inspirion laptops cost completely different prices, as with Optiplex and Dimension desktops. Some days theres a free monitor, printer, ect, but some days, for the same price, there is nothing. And identical computer sometimes cost different prices depending on which link you click.
Why is this surprising everyone? Dell is simply telling us what we already know. Windows has a negative worth. It is a bad(as opposed to goods) and costs to get rid of, just like other garbage and toxic waste.