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Dell's Open PC Costs More Than Windows Box
fist_187 writes "In this article at The Register, they show thath Dell's Open PC costs more than a PC shipped with Windows XP. That's right, getting a PC with a blank hard drive costs more than the same hardware running Windows XP." From the article: "As it turns out, Dell's sales staffers have a secret web page for the product that you can't find with normal search tactics. A kind lass we'll call 'M' pointed us here. On this site, Dell presents a couple different versions of the mysterious E510n. The lowest-end system starts at $774 and is exactly like the boxes above - including the free flat panel - except it has 512MB of memory. For some reason, Dell told reporters that the box starts at $849 - yet another one of the odd sales tactics surrounding this "open source" kit. [Following the publication of our story, Dell raised the price of the PC back up to $849. See the sales pages below for the original $774 price comparisons.]"
Must be that new math I keep hearing about...
If you could reason with religious people, there would be no religious people
So.. the logical thing to do is buy the PC with Windows and then resell the Windows license. Or is that not allowed?
chown -R us ~you/base
Heh. Nothing like telling a bunch of open source guys about a bare drive'ed dell to get them to hustle over and check it out.
Look behind you...
That's pretty much a sequence of numbers, when there's no guarantee that the other person won't use it? Kinda like buying a CD-Key game with open packaging... Not something I'd recommend.
Look behind you...
Computers with Windows XP are stuffed to the roof with trialware and services that kick back the cost. Those with empty hard drives are, well, empty. What's so hard to grasp here?
My other Beowulf cluster is... er...
Seriously. If there's one company in the world which would win an obfuscated price contest, it's Dell. Circuitous menus that seem to simultaneously tweak prices and options depending on who you are and where you're from is deeply suspect. You never get the actual price on anything until you're ready to punch in your credit card number. Advertised prices are pure fiction. I cannot imagine any reason for being so inconsistent about pricing. It's dishonest. I no longer do business with them.
No, it's been that way for a while. The FreeDOS boxes have always (as long as I remember) been more expensive than an equivalent box with XP.
I don't know what kind of deal they have with Microsoft to make that happen, but I suspect it is more than just the AOL and McAfee add-ons that they can bundle with XP.
"I assumed blithely that there were no elves out there in the darkness"
A lot of IT departments have neither the staff nor the patience to build each PC on their own. Considering the tiny profit to be made off PC building, it's much more sensible to focus on projects, rollouts, etc. Tack on the fact that most IT folks don't want to spend hours trying to RMA failed mobos from random vendors, and Dell/IBM/whoever else make a lot of sense in the long run.
Still, that doesn't mean we enjoy dealing with their tech support folks. What idiots!
In this article at The Register...
Eeek!
They should offer a third option to get the system with everything including windows as a 90 day trial. That would be the cheapest system possible!
The PC with the blank hard drive appears to ship with a combo cd/dvd-rom and a fax modem. The PC with windows does not list these features.
Dell's business units are so odd. You can go on their web site and find 3 different prices for the exact same thing depending on which unit you go in, and I mean home, small business, and large. I have ordered from all over that site for personal stuff, it cracks me up sometimes. I would be interested in why that happens. I have asked our Dell rep at work, but he couldn't really give a good answer either.
I kid, I kid.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Dell computer are like American cars, you can always find a deal, you will be crazy to buy a Dell computer, any Dell, Desktop or Laptop, at the official price; they always have a ton of rebates and other "special" or coupon codes all the time.
For instance right now they are running a sale on the excellent UltraSharp 2005FPW 20" Widescreen LCD Monitor for $394.35.
A good place to find about theses deal is at this page: http://www.gottadeal.com/Deals/Store/dellhome
It still has an MS-DOS boot record of 512 bytes. I'm not sure if 64-bit systems have that or not.
Didn't we already cover all of this from here:4 7&threshold=1&commentsort=0&tid=137&mode=thread&ci d=13721513
http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1643
You'll never figure out Dell's pricing policies for any given piece of hardware. It will change randomly from moment to moment. Just when you think you know how to get the best deal, they'll completely change on you. Hell, we effectively resell Dell PCs, and even *WE* can't get a straight price from our rep. Fuck, their corporate customers who buy thousands of units a year don't know how much a PC will cost until they actually get charged for it.
Personally, I use their pricing changes as a source of entropy to help generate cryptographic keys.
Or, if the logic of Dell is to prevail, you can sell blank versions of the same CDs for a slight premium, like $275.
They're doing this because they're going to sell less of these PCs. I mean, honestly, how many people are going to buy a Dell who have the intelligence to use Linux or another OS? Very few. I'm willing to be that 99% of the /. community or anybody who would potentially want to buy this PC already builds there own. Am I right or wrong here?
I'll subscribe to Slashdot when I see a month without a dupe, a typo, or an article the "editors" didn't read.
Lets face it a PC with XP is anybody's. I wonder if this system comes in a white box to indicate its virgin status.
MMO Quests are like orgasms:
You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.
No, not a dupe. It's just an article that has already been debated in our forums. That is with slashdot providing more insight, sadly.
I buy ~250k/year of Dell PCs. We do not have the time, staffing or patience to sort through myriad component problems. They are all Dell Optiplex and Latitude machines with three year warranties and Complete Care. If it breaks, it's Dell's problem. We just don't have time for anything else. If some shop has the time to screw with this stuff, they have too many IT staff and are pissing away money for nothing.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
Haha - I always wonder why these stories get so much play - Dell is far from the only vendor out there, and at that they are never the cheapest. If you want a box w/o OS and not build it yourself, there are only a million places to buy one online. Most small local shops by now have decent websites that let you customize your own system from them, which makes it even easier. Cheaper, same/better customization, w/ or w/o an OS, and local if you ever have warranty issues. Here are three local to me. The only real advantage to Dell I see is when you happen to want the monitor and printer they like to bundle w/ their system.
One Page ad free version of article:
_ pc/print.html
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/10/06/dell_open
Sometimes I wish I was a plumber, then I'd know how to deal with other people's shit.
If the Windows box is cheaper, why not buy it so that you have a Windows license laying around in case you need one. It's not like it's going to hurt you to have a copy laying around in the even that say... you need it to do work from home.
Click here or a puppy gets stomped!
It doesn't matter. First sale doctrine says you can re-sell anything someone else has sold to you. That includes your software, no matter what some silly sticker on your computer says. The only party facing any restrictions is Dell; their contract with Microsoft says they have to bundle the cheap OEM version of Windows with a computer and not sell it separately. The user is free to do with his copy as he wishes.
He who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me.
E510n -- at first it looked like an attempt to say something clever in leet, like "Easy-on," but apparently it's just a numbering scheme coincidence.
Trying valiantly to explain that big, bleeding hole in his foot I presume?
How much longer is it gonna take & how many whacks with a clue-bat to make him understand that sleeping in the same bed with M$ isn't always the smartest business decision? But I suppose just one phone call from Bill, to remind him of the juicey discount he gets on winderz goes away if he so much as sells a single pc without it.
There should never have been such a discount in the first place. If winderz is worth x dollars at staples, then it should be worth that same price minus maybe 10 bucks because the dell folks should be experts at installing it by now. From the rumors I here, dell et all buy it for under 10 bucks a copy.
Frankly, that gives me a very good idea of what winderz is really worth. But then the only windows allowed on this property are made out of glass (or x-windows based). Do I miss it? Dontbesilly...
--
Cheers, Gene
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
99.35% setiathome rank, not too shabby for a WV hillbilly
Even though Windows has a lot of cost - it adds negative value.
Since Dell (and any company looking to please its customers) will price things based on the value the customers receive, it makes perfect sense that they have to compensate the end user for the negative value Windows inflicts on them (pain, grief, anguish, suffering).
(seriously, however - On the Windoze box there's a bunch of third-party crap that Dell was paid to put on there - I know, I worked for a company that paid OEMs to pre-install crippleware in the hopes for upgrading -- and in effect subsidized the windows boxes. I suspect this is what's happening, and Dell's just passing on the subsidy).
Have you actually done a cost/benefit analysis? Have you done so for every other IT shop on the planet?
The justification ought to be based on the answer to the question "Is the amount we would pay Dell (or another company) more, or less, than the cost of the hardware plus salary for someone to build/maintain the machines?". If it's less, it would make sense to do it - if it's more, it makes sense to go the Dell (or another company) route.
Simply saying "If some shop has the time to screw with this stuff, they have too many IT staff and are pissing away money for nothing" doesn't cut it - there is no way that you can know that all IT shops would be pissing money away by doing that.
of the extra cost.
Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
dell sells computers with linux on them http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/compare.a spx/precn_n?c=us&cs=04&l=en&s=bsd
Hmm, Google does screw around with this stuff. Perhaps they have too many IT staff (although it is their business). Whether or not they piss away money can be debated when their profits triple next, or they go bust, whichever comes soonest.
Even those who arrange and design shrubberies are under considerable economic stress at this period in history.
The log on page three is just PAINFUL to read. I'm not sure if M's repeated attempts to try and shove any system down a customers throat, the extremely high level of formal 'training-speak,' or their inability to type out simple words like 'you' brought on this stomach ache, but I sure need to go puke now...
So couple of reasons. One is simple: The DMCA. Your OEM copy of Windows will not work on a non-Dell box. To make it do so, you have to modify it and such modifications would violate the DMCA. Though I disagree with the law it currently is the law and thus if you violate it you can be subject to criminal charges.
The other is that even without that, software is kind of special. When you use software, you actually make a copy of it to your computer, something not necessiarly permitted by copyright law. Thus the permission comes in the form of an EULA, to which you must agree or you don't have that right. Well the EULA restricts this.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
Now like I said, all that's murkeir, might be that provision of the EULA isn't enforcable. However it's all moot, given the DMCA. You can't sell your copy of Windows using the provided key, it won't work, the key is Dell only. To modify Windows to use a different key is to break the DMCA which, retarded as it is, is the law.
It could just be a by product of mass production. Basically, a blank HD is a custom part. I can see how they would have to go out of thier way to put a blank HD in a system instead of one from thier normal pipeline that gets imaged. Custom parts cost more. They probably have to add a second HD pipeline, and extra QA control to make sure the two otherwise identical parts don't get mixed up during assembly. That costs money.
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
Since I live in Puerto Rico, Dell's website always kicks me to Dell's Puerto Rico or LatAm site. The prices are considerably higher in this location specific site. Also deals like double memory or bigger and faster drives are deleted in exchange for... wait for it... a cheapo printer. And to top it all off delivery is also higher. I could accept a higher price for delivery, but for a product that is the same in the USA and here, nosiree.
My wife did get a Dell Inspiron which is nice and all, the products aren't at fault. But their business tactics put me off...
I wish I could filter out the annoying Pickens articles...
You didn't buy it, you licensed it.
A "copy" is defined by federal copyright law (17 USC 101) as a physical object in which a computer program is fixed, such as a hard drive or an optical disc. The "owner" of a physical object is defined by state law and is generally set up by a transaction called a "sale". Combine these and you get the "owner of a copy", who retains specific rights backed up by defenses under 17 USC sections 109 and 117 as well as fit-for-purpose provisions of state law. In order for the primary end user in a residential environment to not be the "owner of a copy", you generally have to have a transaction that is not a "sale". Courts interpreting state law, especially the Uniform Commercial Code, have tended to interpret a retail transaction in which somebody carries a box and cash to the cashier, sets them down, and walks off with the box and a receipt, as a "sale". See Softman v. Adobe.
What legal precedent backs up your position? Or do you claim that the install package is encrypted and that the installer is an access control mechanism designed to condition access to the work on "authority of the copyright owner" under 17 USC 1201 and in turn condition such "authority" on acceptance of additional terms after the sale?
You're not getting a Dell!
Retired from software... maybe. Sort of.
The only reason to buy Dell is their service - heck, they ended up giving me a new laptop 1.5 years after my old one because of issues I was having...
I wouldn't ever consider building a PC for a client these days. Why build for someone as a consultant? You're just asking for trouble. Machines have fairly high failure rates no matter what brand or components you use. I'd rather point people to Dell so that when something breaks, I'm covered. =) Besides, with PC prices the way they are, how much can you save your clients anyway? Especially once you factor in the cost of your time.
has anyone tried customizing the E510 open and E510 windows versions?
I just did, using the best out of almost every category (but keeping the parts the same for each) and the open box came to exactly $100 less
Looks like a negative value Windows XP beats a free Linux.
READY.
PRINT ""+-0
I guess Microsoft Windows has really become a tax, when you see manufacturers doing similar things to what they do to avoid paying a duty and convert that to profit instead of passing the savings unto the customer.
For all we know, it's supposed to be the other way around, because Microsoft shouldn't be offering the nice and heavy OEM discount to Dell anymore since they're violating Microsoft law by not selling PCs exclusively with Windows. Of course, most probably Dell is doing this on purpose, the ulterior motive being to put some pressure on Microsoft or other PC manufacturers.
It's a strange world we live in...
- Otaku no naka no otaku, otaking da!!!
The FreeDOS boxes have always (as long as I remember) been more expensive than an equivalent box with XP.
I don't understand why this is allowed to begin with. Wouldn't this be considered Microsoft (or Dell) "dumping" their operating system if they make consumers pay more to not get it. With the computers shipping with an operating system out of the mailing box, an alternative OS has a harder time even getting a trail run on the machine. Even if someone was specifically interested in an alternative OS, they would buy the Windows-preinstalled machine because it costs less. Then, well they could reformat the drive and install SuSe, Linspire, ect. But the machine is ready to go right now...
Micrososft was sued by 20 states and found guilty of violating the Sherman and Clayton antitrust acts. IIRC Microsoft had more or less said to OEMs, "put MS on everything you sell or we'll have to renegotiate your volume licenses." This appartently was a violation of the antitrust laws.
Five years on not much has changed. Dell and others still have to negotiate license agreements with Microsoft and those negotiations are always secret. You never what MS tells the OEMs. They probably have some obscure language ambigiuous enough to be legal yet lets the OEMs know they better play ball.
Even though MS lost and was found guilty, nothing much has changed for the consumer.
Not just that, but the story is factually incorrect, as well.
I exchanged several emails with Ashley yesterday because some of the claims the article makes aren't true - for one, the OS-free PC is cheaper than the Windows one when they're configured identically hardware wise. The reporter claimed that the price had changed, which may well be true with Dell's website, but it's been the same every time I looked.
Also, there is no "secret web page" as mentioned in the article - you just mouse over the "Desktop" link in the site's main menu and select "Open Source Desktops".
Pretty much the whole article was rubbish.
Don't get me wrong, they have no reason to sell a blank computer for more. Just saying there is an excuse. Just saying that if all they make is PC type Y, and nothing else, then asking for anything different, even if it's something that should otherwise cost less, would muck up thier process.
You left linux off your list. I do believe they also sell linux systems.
If Mr. Edison had thought smarter he wouldn't sweat as much. --Nikola Tesla
I have bought a couple of Dell Servers with no software at all. You are mistaken in thinking that those without an O/S will not have a service tag. They do. This number is also contained in the BIOS.
I'd rather be riding my '63 Triumph T120.
The reason the 'open' box costs more than a XP machine is partially because of the amount of pre-installed crap...er...I mean *sweet* trial software which subidizes the cost of the hardware.
Hasn't anyone here bought one of those unbelievably cheap 2.8Ghz/256mb/free 17" flatscreen/etc for about $400 after rebate? $400!
If I were to newegg (verb) the same parts and build a machine from scratch it would be more than $400...not including the cost of the XP license (who knows what Dell pays for those anyway)
For those who haven't bought or had to deal with one of these, it's a pain in the arse. It will take you about an hour to clean the system enough for a reasonably fast boot.
Unfortunately, this doesn't hold up as the box is the exact same hardware as the 510 with windows installed. There is no extra hardware testing, and these boxes don't have an os, so there is *NO* software testing, so no matter what it is cheaper than the 510 with windows, cause they did have to do testing for that. They aren't marketing the clean boxes either, they got a ton of free advertising by getting posted on slashdot but that didn't cost them a dime.
In short there are a ton of places where they should be saving even more money because of this than the windows box, and they should be passing that savings on to the consumer.
My experience with Dell is that they have VERY tricky prices. Never buy something from Dell until you check all the coupon sites. Dell plays the game of having several divisions that price the same items differently. Prices sometimes fluctuate at each division more than once in a month.
Basically, I have found Dell to be a very abusive company. The only reason I would buy from them is if they have something not available from somewhere else, such as the 2405FPW 24 inch LCD monitor made by Samsung and BenQ.
If you do business with Dell, get a written warranty.
Be careful about Dell employees. They sometimes act for themselves and against the interest of their company. Talking to Dell is like going into a rough neighborhood.
My experience is that Dell is undergoing the social breakdown that is happening in other parts of the United States. One big example of the general breakdown is discussed in this transcript and video: Ike Was Right About War Machine. ("Ike" is former U.S. President and former Supreme Commander of Allied Forces in Europe General Dwight D. Eisenhower.)
See also Andy Rooney speaks out against the war in Iraq.
Is that legal? Well, maybe. Notice that game rental sotres don't rent computer games, just console games. The reason is, of course, concerns over copying. However console games can be, and are, copied all the time. So what's the deal? Well, likely game companies have sucessfully used the EULA argument to stop rentals. Can't be done with console games. No copying, thus no legal problems, and doctrine of first sale allows the rentals. However with PC games the copying happens, thus the need for EULA agreements, thus the problem.
May I direct you to Exclusive rights in copyrighted works. I quote: "(3) to distribute copies or phonorecords of the copyrighted work to the public by sale or other transfer of ownership, or by rental, lease, or lending;" Nothing to do with copying. Nothing to do with EULAs. Not permitted by doctrine of first sale. Rentals are specifically named as an exclusive right. The console game companies want to license that right, the PC game companies do not. That is all.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Or...they've found out they save more by building their own than it costs to pay the people needed to build them. If it's cheaper to buy dells, of course any business will do that, but there are times when it isn't.
I am trolling
Do you have a stack of dead dells waiting for Dell to fix too?
Give me HP any day...
I guess the difference in price is because with freeDOS, the SPAM/spyware industry doesn't pay dell a cut from their proffit.
If you call 1 604 512 6226, the prices are a little different. While in Canadian dollars, the Open PC comes out to $200 CDN cheaper than the Windows box, approximately the cost of a Windows box. YOu just have to make sure you say you want "Computer X without Windows" and ask how much Windows costs... it works, I've done it.
I like the sound of that. Or used to.
We had that deal on some rackmount servers. One of them would hang during POST one time in three if you had a RAID controller in it. We could swap RAID controllers out to other Dell boxes, including one of the exact same model, without trouble. Just that particular one.
Over a month later, it was still happening. I think they swapped the power supply once. They didn't apparently feel that an obviously defective machine totally unsuitable for a production environment was a problem on their end, so we got to play the game of hooking it up to a remote-switchable power supply and power-cycling it if it was down.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Our company IS department is trying to roll out about 150 dell pc's with SUSE+vmware+windows xp. This is the standard desktop for software engineers in our company.
They spent a lot of time getting the software to match the hardware (vmware+video drivers is a tricky issue), delivered about 20 machines, and then the supply of machines with that configuration dried up.
Dell changed hardware on them and now they have to go back to scratch with the software configuration and the whole deal is stalled. Here is me running redhat 7.2 while they stuff around.
Dell could have sold the rest of the machines if they had kept the configuration stable.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Note well, this isn't a discount for buying without MS -- they're charging $105 extra, and shortening your warranty, for leaving the disk blank.
It's one thing to charge extra. It's quite another to hike up the premium after the Register has called them on it.
Can someone please explain to me one thing:
Why was I told, by a Dell sales representative (our key account manager, actually), that "if I wanted to have a Matrox dual-DVI G650 card with my computers, I would *have* to accept that they came with WinXP preinstalled"??? I asked back, what does a piece of hardware have to do with any piece of software. And why on earth do they offer (now, but not when we placed our first batch of orders) a dual-DVI ATI card, for about half the price, WITHOUT requiring a WinXP installation?
Let me try to get this straight:
- I order a clean PC, and tell them I want a Matrox G650 card preinstalled
---> No can do, if you want the Matrox card preinstalled, you need XP preinstalled.
- I order a clean PC, and tell them I want an ATI Xwhatever card preinstalled
---> No problem, do you want FreeDOS with that?
And to top it off: I COULD have the Matrox card, OF COURSE, but then I'd have to install it myself.
Yea right, install a frikkin' gfx card in 60 computers, thereby ruining much of my warranty - up yours.
Puzzled, I am.
Love over Gold.
I always thought it was a Windows-tax, but it's actually a Windows-rebate.
Having worked in the Dell management at Round Rock in Texas I can tell you that the production steps for an identical system without Windows XP are exactly the same, except software installation and a brief test of the system and harddrive which are basically unnecessary because all of the components have been tested already extensively. The actual production cost is exactly the same as a Windows machine minus the licensing fees(between $130 and $150 total) for Windows and other software and the labor for software installation and testing(perhaps $10). This means the price tag for a system without Windows is approximately $150 less. Any claims to the contrary are not true. What's happening is that there is still alot of internal politics and pro-Microsoft lobbying and brainwashing going on and is has been suggested not to pass on the cost savings of a Windows-free system to the consumer and we have been urged to deny that systems without Windows are saving us production cost in order to make them unattractive.
Microsoft still has alot of control over our company politics which manifests itself in many ways e.g. anyone in sales is being instructed when asked about Windows-free or Linux systems to answer in a firm and confident manner: "I have never heard about that." and "There is no demand for that." This is the reason that in order to even get a Windows refund or merchandise credit the customer needs to speak to someone who is above the first level of sales. Sorry, but that's Dell politics for you. Fortunately things have started to change but very slowly.
I have been buying from Dell in numerous capacities for years, and it is rare that you cannot find the same thing at diiferent prices depending on how you play with the site. There are different pricing models depending on consumer or business even on the same models. It get even more fun when you realize some of the business models are identical to consumer models, they just have different names and the base state is slightly different. Customize up and match them (if you know how to decode dells mobo obsfucation) and Voila!!! 3 or 4 different prices for the exact same thing. Now If you are a Dell prefered buyer you are supposed to get the discount you arranged right? HAHAHAHAHA not if you look!
---In a time of Chimpanzees I was a Monkey.
The blank hard drive is worth more!
"No this just proves that Windows actually has a negative retail value."
No. This just proves that Microsoft is paying Dell to jack up the price on systems without Windows on it. There are few other explanations.
Dell should want to make money, selling the box for *more* when it does *not* have the Windows tax doesn't make much sense.
Well, see, that's another reason I've never done business with Big Name hardware stores. The only time I ever paid somebody else to assemble my PC for me was my first one, and that was a sharp teen at a Mom-n-Pop store who literally built it right in front of me while explaining what and why. I wonder if he knows what an influence he was?
Dell and Microsoft are working together to once and for all prove that the TCO of linux is more then Windows. The proof is right here. Boy, do I feel silly for building my own linux box now! I've been had!
People say my sig is the best thing about me.
I just went to the DELL website after reading the article from The Register. Apparently, they fixed it. You do not need to hover your mouse or anything now. The saying in Hollywood doesn't apply to tech companies "Any Publicity is Good Publicity."
A machine with Windows installed is damaged goods. Of course it's cheaper.
-jcr
The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
redundant... removed redundant moderation now anyay ;)
sorry.
It's also always seemed to me that a blank drive system is harder for Dell to support. What do they tell you to do when you call up and say, e.g., that you can't get some video mode working? In fact, I bet a blank drive system gets little real support, but I bet they budget for more.
...you would simply do that. The video rental isn't going to sell you their major $$$ rental DVD for the price you'd get at a DVD store. And do the copyright holders transfer ownership at all, or simply rent them out with the right to rent them further? Either way, I don't see how that was relvant to the "Why are there console games and not PC games in rental stores?" that I was trying to clear up.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
Wow.
It seems you need to hire an operations manager.
You could be saving a little bit of up front cost to just piss away tens of thousands of dollars a month because you can't justify the cost of labor. Sure if you had the time, I'd warrant that you would have peformed a true cost-benifit analysis of maintianing the machines in-house. But by you're own words "We just don't have time for anything else."
Sad truth is, you probably don't have time to properly account for the the time and money you waste by coordinating with Dell, and I'll wager that your company (by it's size in computer demand) is large enough that it's already utilizing resources just to track and coordinate the problem machines.
Sure, it might only cost you a percent or two of profit, and changing could be the wrong decision (depending on the data you collect), but even a COMPUTER SCIENTIST knows that basic business classes provide ample opportunity for justifying decisions with real resons (cost / savings) than the cop-out, "We just don't have time for anything else."
And just who is BRITIAN?
...the reason Dell offers a Linux machine for a higher price is because of the higher associated tech costs with supporting two operating systems. The Linux market has very little demand therefore the price is higher, Dell isn't just selling a computer, they're selling the support that goes with that computer. If you have to train your Indian tech support gurus to troubleshoot two operating systems, one of which many of the indian tech support 'gurus' have never even used before is an uphill battle Dell has to pay for.
when Dell sells AMD boxes with no OS then I "might" give a shit.
Ubuntu- Linux for human beings.
I used a Dell branded Windows XP Home installation disk to wipe and reload my Sony VAIO. I had zero problems using the Dell CD, even using the serial number/CD-Key off of the sticker on my Sony laptop.
Activated, and worked fine.
Microtel SYSWM5014 Desktop PC, 1.5 GHz AMD Sempron 2200+ Processor!!!
Wow! Reeeading the fine print:
"Not included: Hard drive, CD-ROM drive, modem, floppy disk drive, operating system."
and on a separate line:
"Purchase your choice of monitor separately"
errrrr... no thanks
In Germany, there was a similar case a few years ago. A dealer unbundled PC hardware and Microsoft OEM licenses and sold them separately. Microsoft sued him and lost. At the Bundesgerichtshof to boot, which is the highest judical authority in non-constitutional cases. That makes the decision rather final.
IIRC, the court explicitly applied the german equivalent of the "First Sale" doctrine, the EULA mumbo-jumbo nonwithstanding.
C - the footgun of programming languages
Find out what exactly the Big Name hardware store puts into the case. If you like the choices, buy it and fdisk the PC right away ;-)
C - the footgun of programming languages
Otherwise, you'd have seen that Dell provides the following disclaimer for this PC:
"Note: Dell does not support non-Dell installed operating systems."
3000+ comments meta-modded. 0 mod points awarded.
Lesson for other meta-suckers: Don't believe the hype!
Dell always has great deals with their coupon codes.
If you want an updated list, I find that GottaDeal does the best job and is always up-to-date.
Price goes down, price goes up, price goes down, price goes up....
"We are all geniuses when we dream"
- E.M. Cioran
Well, it is obvious - someone would have to pay me to use Windows XP and that is what Dell is doing.
Oh well, what the hell...
If you take the machines with no modifications or customizations, then yes, the Windows and the no-OS box are the just about the same price, but lets look further...
First, we've got to bump the XP version from Media Center to Pro (to make it the equivalent of the OS that will most likely be installed on the no-OS box {linux -- any flavor}) add $100 to XP.
The base E510 starts with 256 mb ram, lets bump that to 512 to match the no-OS standard box. add $40 to XP
Bump the no-OS combo's monitor to a 17in flat to match the windows box. add $160 to no-OS
The XP box comes with the intergrated Intel video, bump it to the ATI X600 w/256 mb ram, add $100 to each machine (the no-OS box does not have the integrated as an option, leaves us to quesiton Intel.)
Sound upgrade. no-OS does not come with integrated sound, so we must upgrade both boxes. Audigy 2ZS, add $70 to each machine
ok, here's the kicker, anybody with half a brain {which I assume includes those of us that will be buying a no-OS machine} can d/l and install Open Office and some flavor of SQL (MySQL, PostgresSQL, etc), so we have to add Office Pro to the Windows box.... Add $399 to the XP.
Final verdict: No-OS $1049.00 XP $1527.00
For the above package, I'll take the no-OS machine and install Suse or Slack on it.
Buy a Windows equipped machine with the smallest hard drive available. Then rip the drive out and put in a big one with Linux on it. Dell recently had a Celeron-D 2.8 gig Dimension 3000 computer that came with a 15 inch LCD and 256 megs of RAM for 399.00. Shipping was $19.95. I bought one put in a 200 gig drive & another 512 megs of RAM and Fedora runs just fine on it. Even with the upgrades, it's still cheaper then their 'bare' computer and has an LCD to boot.
"So, I guess this just goes to show you Linux losers that Windows does have lower TCO after all..."
"Not an actor, but he plays one on TV."
Wiggum: Your mission is to find the fireworks smugglers, and get them to say something incriminating on this tape. [holds up a cassette tape]
Bart: [reading the tape label] "Hootie and the Blowfish"?
Wiggum: Yeah. It's cheaper than blank tape.
Okay, so a philosopher, a philologist, and a philatelist walk into a bar...
> I buy ~250k/year of Dell PCs. We do not have the time, staffing or patience to sort through myriad component problems.
Dude! If you are spending that much annually I suspect that just from the ammount spent on the service contracts you could bring on a pimply faced youth to do depot repair and build up new boxes. Building the machines ain't rocket science and if you pick your parts right (Something YOU would have to do) you can get pretty reliable stuff that is almost as quick to fix as those plastic Dells. The big wins would be having better kit and faster turnaround on repairs for the same or less cash. And you create a local job instead of pissing a load of money to Dell and their contract manufacturers.
Democrat delenda est
yep, this is what I said before: http://hardware.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=16434 7&cid=13721775 and why I bought a cheaper machine (with better hardware *and* XP (ugg)) from Dell! The open-ness is kinda a joke, unless it means 'opening' your wallet. Thanks Dell.
fak3r.com
I work as an IT consultant, often helping small buisness purchase computers. Dell's pricing has been a nightmare forever. NOTHING is the same price ever. Identical Latitude and Inspirion laptops cost completely different prices, as with Optiplex and Dimension desktops. Some days theres a free monitor, printer, ect, but some days, for the same price, there is nothing. And identical computer sometimes cost different prices depending on which link you click.
Why is this surprising everyone? Dell is simply telling us what we already know. Windows has a negative worth. It is a bad(as opposed to goods) and costs to get rid of, just like other garbage and toxic waste.
Obviously the "n" model has to be more expensive,
Since for each ordered model dell has to ship the PC to china, get a specialized prison inmate to remove the "windows licence stiker" (in a way compatible with the internal dell specific microsoft refund program), and then to a high tech hub in Brno in the Czech republic to have the disk cleaned by a certified OS cleaning specialist.
Of course a random number is pulled out for final specialized checking in Oregon by a H1b intern with a phD gained in Bangalore, but supervised by a Miskatonic Institute of Technocracy MBA.
In addition the lack of spyware and virus compatible software makes the machine usable for a dangerously long time.
So the only surprising element is the fact that the added price is so low.
First of all N series boxes are nothing new, they've been around for quite awhile, but were typically around for sale to resellers to would want to rebrand them.
;-)
The pricing difference is quite simple to explain on Dell machines. One of the ways OEM's(not just Dell) are able to sell thier machines so cheaply is that they load more than just windows on the machine. All that software that comes with the machine was either given to the OEM for free, because having a "lite" version of something installed on somebody's computer is a great way to generate upgrade revenue, or money was paid out to the OEM for the software to be included. This has to do with why Dell computers come with Roxio now instead of Nero or Easy CD, they got a better deal from Roxio. In addition to the OEM's getting this software for free or getting paid to put it on the computers sometimes they get a kickback whenever the customer upgrades. AOL for instance...when you sign up for AOL using the free trial included with your computer your OEM will eventually get a kickback. In the case of some of the machines, especially at christmas and other major sale times, an OEM might sell machines at cost or below in order to make money off of just extended warranties, the software kickbacks, and accessories sales.
And for those of you who have to find a way to slam microsoft and major corps in every single post remember that since both Dell and HP/Compaq both charge for software support selling a PC full of microsoft and other products that are likely to generate support calls is a great long term source of income
You can not agree to the Eula, and get a refund, like this guy: http://www.linuxjournal.com/article/7040 Enjoy!
Or Microsoft gets what it pays for -- a user.
tone
tone
Amen. Far too many PHBs near the top take this attitude and "piss away" profits. I'm not saying the opposite is any better, but, as in everything, there is a happy medium here. There's anywhere from 5 to 10 (even more with part time techs) salaries wrapped up in that number - if you dont have time for anything else, such as a rudimentary cost-benefit analysis, perhaps someone else would?
So, if I were his boss, I would fire him for replacing current faulty hardware with the same crap, I don't try to fix people anymore.
Boy it sounds unbelievably bad - We are spending 10x what Japan spends and a shocking 24x what Russia spends! Well, I'm not saying it's not bad, but it certainly isn't THAT BAD. At least not when you think for a few seconds and realize the only way to sensibly approach this is to look at military expenditures as a % of GDP. (for source material check http://www.sipri.org/contents/milap/milex/mex_data base1.html and http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/.
From that perspective things make a lot more sense - in 2004 the US spent between 3.2 and 3.9% of GDP (based on whose expediture estimates you use), while the UK and France spent about 2.6%. Germany, Japan, and Italy spent between 1.1 -1.7% of GDP - and Russia was about the same. To gain some perspective, South Korea spent about 1.7% while their unfriendly and incredibly poor neighbors to the North were able to scrape together a shocking 13% of their resources for military expenditures. Saudi Arabia came in at 6% while Israel came in at 7%. Iran is estimated as 3.3% by the CIA but I couldn't find any source material to back up that claim.
So Andy, it appears that other Countries ARE spending "the kind of money" the US is spending on military expenditures - some are spending relatively even more.
For more perspective I tried to find out how much of the US GDP is spent on IT - but all I could find was an estimate of 2.8% which appears to be for 1996. http://www.strassmann.com/pubs/datamation0297/.
First of all, yes, we do cost/benefit analyses. Fully burdened bodies with benefits cost a lot more than the small amount saved per unit, even spread over a year.
Second, as a Dell "Large Company Account", we pay a LOT less than list and less than you can get under any circumstances. We check frequently against coupon offers and other discounts. We do not take Dell's word for it. We have received rebates when we do catch them.
Third, We keep identical units in stock of each type in current use. Most of the time, we can simply swap the hard drive and get the user back up within ten minutes. With what we pay engineers and physicists, that is the cost-effective way to go.
Fourth, Dell comes out the next day and (mostly) does exactly what we tell them to do. The exception is servers, when they come out within four hours. We just don't spend that much time with Dell. It is also important that we have a vendor who can supply us with U.S. citizens as onsite support techs. Dell can, you would be surprised at how many cannot.
Fifth, When it makes sense, we buy from other vendors. We purchase specialty servers from Monarch Computer when we need them. Commodity servers are Poweredges from Dell.
The comment one respondent made about Google is interesting. At some point, it may be beneficial to run your own shop, dedicating personnel who become very efficient at providing that service. At our size, we are not at that point.
"Computers are useless. They can only give you answers."
-- Pablo Picasso
did it really take the entire /. crowd 3 days just to read the price that was 2 clicks
away from the original post?...or was this a slow day for submissions?
SLASHDOT: news for people who can't concentrate on work or have no life at all and got tired of yelling back at the TV.
I wish all Slashdot comments were as interesting and well-written as yours. You have a good point. However, maybe it is possible to look at military expenditure in another way. Maybe military expenditure is not linearly scaleable in the way you say. Each military plans for the same kinds of expected conflict. So, each country should spend somewhat closer to the same amount of money. Countries which are extremely well isolated like the U.S., which have a large ocean on both sides, and which have friendly neighbors, should spend less. Nebraska is not planning on attacking Kansas, and no one is planning on attacking Nebraska.
The U.S. government spends so much because of government corruption, not need. The major effect of U.S. government involvement in Iraq has not been eliminating weapons or fostering democracy. There is more day-to-day violence in Iraq now that the U.S. is there, not less. The major effect has been to switch oil profits (not oil itself) from Iraqis to Americans. (The oil was always sold on the open market.) There are people who are willing to kill to make money, and the U.S. government is controlled by them.
Other reasons for U.S. government violence in Iraq:
1) Profit in weapons is much higher and easier to make than profit in a legitimate business. Weapons allow businessmen who could not compete in normal businesses to become rich.
2) Saddam Hussein was pricing his oil in Euros. If Venezuela and Iran did that, the value of the U.S. dollar would collapse. The U.S. government is heavily in debt. Billions of dollars a day are being embezzled. The embezzlement depends on being able to borrow money. If the world stops considering the U.S. dollar to be a safe and necessary currency, there would be far less money to steal.
3) Iraq has the second largest reserves of easily extracted oil in the world.
4) Israelis have corrupted the U.S. government. They want the U.S. to provide security for their country, free to Israel.
5) The privatization of the oil in Iraq under U.S. control weakens OPEC. That raises the value of oil held in other countries.
6) Mental illness accounts for most of the problem. Angry people are willing to pay for violence. Acting out anger makes people more angry. Anger feeds on itself.
Notes: See page 154 of the book, "Bush in Babylon" by Tariq Ali for another source of some of these reasons for U.S. government violence.
I don't know much about FreeDOS and haven't used it, so tell me if I get something wrong (and I'm sure Slashdot will!). My question is whether someone has actually purchased one of their FreeDOS systems and experienced incompatibilities between the OS and some device on the Dell computer such as a sound card or something. If there haven't been any such issues, then Dell has probably done testing to make sure it works on that system (maybe even coding to help FreeDOS be compatible). I haven't seen any cost analysis that involves the cost for testing the system to make sure it works with an operating system or the cost of fixing any problems so much of the article is speculative.
Another issue is that the system will NOT sell as many as the windows system, so the pricing will be different for that system to make a profit. Even though it may be the same system as one of their windows boxes, they cannot advertise it as such, so to keep legal, it has to be treated as a different product and because it is a different product, it accumulates more costs (because there are always costs involved in a new product lines). I'm not saying that I'm right about this, but it does need to be taken into consideration. Saying it's because they're evil is just too convenient and requires no analysis.
I'm not saying everything Dell does is great (in fact I hate Dell). I'm just saying that there are a lot of variables that need to be taken into consideration before you can argue whether the pricing scheme is done because of some shady practices or because they really had to make it cost more just to make a profit off of it.
I actually just erased a bunch more stuff because it was mainly redundant and I wanted to keep my ranting to a minimum.
Have you done a full cost analysis on that? Did you include the cost of end-user downtime and lost opportunity costs of said downtime? Do you have numbers on how many hours a year your staff spends dealing with driver issues, customized-builds, etc (unless you're in an unmanaged environment where the Dell box get stuck on a desk with Automatic Updates turned on then scrapped at the end of the warranty period)? Or are those things you have no time for (and if so why are you so short on time)?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I charge $100/hr to consult.
Do you realize how much its gonna cost a client to build a PC, install WinDoze, MS Office, and a bunch of other crap they won't need.
Hell, we're talking few hundred bucks labor and couple grand in software.
This isn't about saving money, its about making it.
----- If communism is a system where the government owns business, what do you call a system where business owns govern
And what if i upgrade my CPU?
Then later upgrade my power supply?
At one point i upgrade my hard drive, transferring the contents,
and eventually i upgrade everything, even the case!
and let's say that, instead of doing this over the course of 3 years, i do it over the course of three days...
and, instead, why not 'downgrade' every component, and then sell your copy of WindowsXP 'bundled' with a fancy 286 with an unusually large harddrive...
I hate to give Microsoft any ideas but..
...) is only being lent to you, you are not buying it, you only bought the installer. In return for agreeing to this EULA we agree to let you use a copy of "MSOFFICE" for an unlimited period...blah blah..." I
couldn't they get around all this by only putting the installer in the box. When you buy the box you are only buying the installer. The installer offers you the EULA, which says "The program (word excel
If you click the Agree button, the software is loaded off a secure server and installed, you click Disagree then the installer quits and nothing is installed. The box you buy would be plainly marked "Microsoft office installer for version x.yz"
I want to point out that I made this very point explicitly a couple of days earlier than the Register article in the Comments on Gizmodo: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/announcements/dell-open s-up-129032.php