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More Evidence For Hobbit Sized Species
GogglesPisano writes "CNN.com reports that scientists digging in a remote Indonesian cave have uncovered a jaw bone that they say adds more evidence that a tiny prehistoric Hobbit-like species once existed." From the article: "The discovery of a jaw bone, to be reported in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature, represents the ninth individual belonging to a group believed to have lived as recently as 12,000 years ago. The bones are in a wet cave on the island of Flores in the eastern limb of the Indonesian archipelago, near Australia."
And, at least two groups of opponents have submitted their own studies to other leading scientific journals refuting the Flores work.
"This paper doesn't clinch it. I feel strongly that people are glossing over the problems with this interpretation," said Robert Martin, a biological anthropologist and provost of the Field Museum of Natural History in Chicago.
Wow! Eastern limb of the Indonesian archipelago, near Australia, which is close to New Zealand, which is where LOTR was shot.
the jawbone was placed there by satan to test your faith
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
I hear Peter Jackson found a whole town of them there.
Shouldn't the first thing in studying these remains to be to eliminate this possibility (along with full explanations as to why). I admit I've not delved too deep into this, but it is something which has always bothered me in the back of my mind.
"There are a dozen opinions on a matter until you know the truth. Then there is only one." - CS Lewis (paraprhase)
Please stop APK.. you're only hurting yourself.
Or a G-nome.
Bone structures change over time, especially from child to adult. I think they would have been able to tell easily if it were. The main controversy here that I see from the article is that some people believe that the bones found have been that of a person who suffered from microencephaly or dwarfism.
$fortune
Tomorrow has been canceled due to lack of interest.
Frodo Lived!
"No fair, you changed the outcome by measuring it!" - Professor Hubert J. Farnsworth
It's easy to tell from dentition and the state of the bone as well as other things the general age of an animal or person from a jaw bone.
You are so boring that when I see you my feet go to sleep.
First thing a a golem would say, of course, is nothing. Golems can't speak, according to folklore. Sure would have made it more difficult for Andy Sirkis to get an award...
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
It could have just been a young kid? I'm sure the hobbit idea is much more interesting though...
I am sure that idea never occured to the scientists doing the digging. You should write to them and let them know your brilliant theory. That would save everyone involved a lot of time.
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Thiss preciousss twelve thousands of yearses olds jawsbone... found in dark deep dripsy cave... thiss iss not ssomethings that's coming from tricksy hobbitses!
(AP) -- Scientists say they have found more bones in an Indonesian cave that offer additional evidence of a second human species -- short and hobbit-like -- that roamed the Earth the same time as modern man.
I thought the Hobbit reference was thrown [gratuitously] into the summary to grab the attention of the
I want to drag this out as long as possible. Bring me my protractor.
When they the jaw bones of some Orcs and Trolls THEN I'LL BE IMPRESSED!
So Long and Thanks for all the Fish.
There is a pygmy like species in parts of Asia and Africa. Although they are off the species Homo Sapien, they are much shorter because they do not have a growth spurt. Scientists are really interested in them because they wonder what genes cause growth and if they can be influenced. I went to a bio conference in Atlanta with my AP Biology class to listen to one. Extremely interesting. Linkage here
t ml-16837http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmy>
ahref=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pygmyrel=url2h
Seems from the news that Smurf Village has been bombed and will feature in a UNICEF ad in Belgium next week.
it was probably done by president gargamel...
A feeling of having made the same mistake before: Deja Foobar
If only they could find some DNA sound like a clone of these little fellas would make some great servants being established tool makers and all. On a serious side it would be interesting to see what the development of the nominal human code of ethics (ie thou shall not kill) would have been if there were some creatures alive today positioned between modern humans and chipanzees in terms of intellect.
I, for one, welcome our new hobbit-sized overlords!
:-)
I think they're technically "underlords", what with being tiny, mostly harmless and living underground, and all.
Just watch out for the one's with glowing golden rings that pulse with an aura of evil incarnate, and you'll be fine!
Everyone knows there's no such thing as hobbits. This jaw bone must be some wizard's trick.
org.slashdot.post.SignatureNotFoundException: ewg
Part of the controversy is due to the fact that there are other 'small' animal bones which have been found on the island, such as miniature elephants. In conjunction with the finds or other mini-species, the 'hobbit' people becomes a more likely conclusion than if you only consider the 'hobbit' bones by themselves. Not only that but on other islands in the archipelago, they have found bones of apparently human-related giants who were much larger than people today. Only the hobbit-folk get any press though.
The point of this article is that latest finds are bones of other individuals with similar characteristics.
So it isn't "a person", it is maybe several people _all_ suffering from microencephaly, all died / buried in the same place, without any normal homo sapiens remains.
Could be a primitive society with a history of the disease and a special burial place exclusively for those afflicted - but we're having to stretch the theory rather a lot to explain this...
...there is only more of the same information. Those who thought that the remains were of pathological anomalies continue to think the same. I think there was some difference in the stratas that the new jawbone was found, actually an older instance.
What the microcephaly proponents fail to recognize that a stable population of pathological anomalies can't exist, once the pathology is widespread in a population it would cease to be an anomaly, at least among that population.
Microcephaly as we know it medically is kind of a self-cancelling thing, most who suffer from it would be unlikely to procreate, or compete for same even in our current society, much less so in hunter gatherer societies. No reason to think that prehistoric microcephaly wouldn't be accompanied by similar deficits as is the case today. I am not an anthropologist or paleontologist though, so I'll just stand back and watch the fur fly, so to speak.
Funny, I was just reading about floresiensis last night. I was greatly intrigued by the fact that the islanders' oral history includes stories about monkey-like men that closely fit the description of floresiensis man. They maintain that they were still around after the Dutch arrived in the 16th century, until about 300 years ago when they got fed up with their hijinks and set out to kill them all. Apparently there were still sightings up until the 19th century.
The most likely explanation seems to be that a population of h. erectus found itself on the island and, through island dwarfing, ended up at their diminutive height. I find the thought of sub-human hominids suriving until that recently both creepy and fascinating. More reading at wikipedia
But all 'little men' fun arguments aside, I can't see why there couldn't have been species parallel to Homo sapiens sapiens (other than the popularly accepted ones) at one evolutionary point or another. Heck, for all we know there could have been species of semi-sentient gorillas at any point. We just don't know.
You cannot prove either of those statements, hence there is some debate in the scientific community. While you may very possibly be correct, you can't know. Don't state as proven fact things that are far more nebulous.
1) They may be Homo sapiens though they certainly seem more similar to Homo erectus. Thus, while they may be a different species from Homo sapiens, their status with regards to other members of the Homo line is uncertain at best.
2) Maybe, maybe not. I would tend to agree with you -- the number of specimen makes it seem unlikely that they are statistical outliers. However, this alone does not make them a seperate species from anything we already know. Perhaps there is some shared genetic trait in the population, like the pygmies of African and Asia. It is possible to have a population that tends to be shorter, yet is not a seperate species from the "parent" population.
Again, it is possible that they are a completely different species from anything that has been seen before. The small cranial capacity, the small stature, and the weird mix of primative and evolved traits would argue in that direction. On the other hand, they could be a seperate population that is not truely genetically distinct; a group of statistical outliers (unlikely, but possible); or another Piltdown Man.
Rhapsody in Numbers
Brilliant! I'm going to offer you an honorary Doctorate in Archeology from the University of Dumbasses.
Definitely do that. The scientists will likely be intrigued by your ideas and want to subscribe to your newsletter.
They know because they found a cave painting nearby that said "F1rst P0st!"
Traditionally, yeah, I guess the inability to produce viable offspring is the gold standard of speciation. However, Canis Lupus and Canis Familiaris can interbreed successfully, yet they each get a species name and most people distinguish dogs and wolves as separate species. My point is that the people attempting to cast doubt on this discovery aren't disputing the facts of what was discovered (a population of "humans" who seem related to H. Sapiens, but who all share a genetic difference from that species), but rather what to call that group. Inheritable genetic "diseases" that confer an advantage to the "sufferer" are the basis of natural selection. Whether you call the offpring of those individuals a "diseased population" or a "new species in the making" is like arguing whether Pluto should be considered a planet; you think you're arguing about Pluto, but you're really arguing about the definition of the word "planet", which is arbitrary and not very interesting, at least to most people.
Jaw bones contain teeth. Wear on the teeth is usually a pretty good indicator of age. So yes, it could have just been a small child that had been chewing tough food for at least 20 years...
I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
What's so insightful about this post. This guy isn't even aware that stature isn't the chief fascination with these remains, and then ends the post with some slanted bit against National Geographic. I wasn't aware that ignorance was a rewardable activity. Maybe I'll get modded +50 insightful if I say that God actually has twelve penises and practices fellatio on storm gutters.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
Don't get me started about the pirates ...
"I hate to advocate drugs, alcohol, violence or insanity but they've always worked for me" - HST
They found it in a *wet cave*...
It *shrunk*.
Here are some interesting links that tell more about how carbon dating works. The link you posted is just creationist talk and not even the best of its kind. You need to know more about the intrinsics of the method before you can judge the scientific merit.
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science.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm
230nsc1.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/cardat.htm
www.c14dating.com/int.html
see a Text Widget
...don't put it on. Seriously. Bad things would happen.
apes!
Cake or Death? Cake Please!
The interesting bit is that this island is uninhabited as South American slavers came in the mid-1800s and captured all the males off the island. The King then had the women and children rescued and declared the island off limits. When I was there we tried to go to the island for a scientific survey but King Tupou Fa refused. The place is only visited by occasional fishermen.
I am not a robot. I am a unicorn.
The Eldar were kidnapped and enslaved by Santa Claus. After centuries of malnourishment and hard work in the bitter cold, their bodies shrank to what we normally think of as "elfin".
Disclaimer: The opinions expressed are not necessarily my own, as I've not yet had my medication today.
I've been wondering how scientists are capable of building histories of entire species given only one or two examples. Imagine if 100,000 years from now an archaeologist found the fossilized remains of Verne Troyer and Shaquille O'Neal. If he based his theories about ancient man on the same amount of evidence as we do today he would probably assume that there we two distinctly separate forms of man on the planet at the same time.
How can we find a couple of bones in a cave and surmise an entire branch of evolution based upon them?
I stole this sig from a more creative user.
Could there be any possibility of finding any preserved DNA after 12,000 years (not very long, geologically speaking)? I wish this had happened in a colder climate, where there was some possibility of preservation by ice. I think it would be a singularly awesome occurance, perhaps a turning point for modern society, if a scientist took a cell from an extinct but SENTIENT primate species and cloned it, either with a gorilla or human mother.
/. have been "infected" at one time or another. But for these people, anti-depressants such as Prozac and Zoloft are prescribed for the SOLE purpose of supressing sexual desire. Oh sure, that's not what it's officially for, but staff openly talk about the real goal of putting a client on that med. The "depression" doesn't really exist until the client gets too horny for our director's taste, and the doctor mysteriously does NOT prescribe one of the many antidepressants out that have a lower impact on sexual function. And of course, no one is ever prescribed the antidepressant Wellbutrin, which has been shown to increase sexual desire and pleasure (as I can personally attest to) and would be otherwise appropriate for many of our more lethargic clients.
Call me cruel or evil if you must, but if I was a scientist presented with that opportunity, I would do it in a heartbeat. The moral, religious, and political rammifications would be tremendous... another creature besides ourselves capable of lucid communication, capable of abstract thought and rational logic. Likely less intelligent (on average) than Homo Sapiens and possibly possessing other differing desires and abilities, but unquestionably emotional and intelligent. How the hell would mainstream Christianity react? I would think that "mainstream" would have to be redefined, as many people would cling to old notions of humanity being special, unique, and alone while just as many would be unable to treat another intelligent being as a mere animal.
Of course, the exact level of intelligence would be very important. Just how intelligent are they, as compared to us? As compared to chimps? What if they possess roughly same communication skills and intelligence as a chimp or gorilla, yet they look like us, have the same facial expressions as us, and possess the vocal cords necessary to form words? Gorillas and chimps are quite intelligent, and capable of significant levels of communication via sign language. I'm willing to bet that the major reason why they haven't been granted any legal rights is because they seem so unhuman. Give them a human looking body and the power of speech, and suddenly the situation for many people will not seem so cut and dry. Lord knows where our morality would go from there--maybe given a hundred years, those "freaks" over at PETA will get their wish and the entire animal kingdom will have rights, perhaps based on intelligence. I'm not saying I necessarily support such an idea, but it's mind-blowing to consider.
Perhaps it's fascinating for me specifically because for the last 4 years I've worked extensively with the (moderately) mentally handicapped. It's very interesting to watch how they're treated by parents, doctors, coworkers, and fellow clients. In many respects they are given a high degree of self-determination, yet there are always more subtle attempts to change them into what we want them to be. The aspect I have the most problem with is prescribing medication for the sole purpose of surpressing libido. Ok, if the client is attacking women and fondling them that's one thing, but if wacking off too much and getting caught staring at women's chests and cutting out pictures of underwear models or even, heaven forbid, having consentual sexual relations with one another is a disease, I suspect that many of us here at
I guess what I'm saying is that if we were forced to deal with a less intelligent and more primal version of ourselves, we would be forced to confront our more animalistic urges in a saner and more consistan
"Almost all civilizations have oral or written records of giants and dwarves (trust me, LOTR is not a new idea). These, as most other legends, must have some sort of factual origin"
And almost all civilizations have some undead in their mythology. E.g., vampires. What's your theory about the factual origin of those? Are you telling me that the dead actually rose from their graves and preyed upon the living?
Now seriously, at least the giants are actually _very_ easily explained by exaggeration. It's like the hunters' or fishermen's tales of catching one "I swear it was this big" and increasing every year. Well, the same happened in wars. Defeating a particularly fearsome or important opponent is gradually inflated to having bested someone Goliath sized and with various demonic features or super-powers.
You don't even have to look too far back to see exactly that. During at least one of the crusades, one of the archers on the walls is described as pretty much a giant with a siege weapon in his hand. (A saracen version of Terry Pratchett's Detritus, if you will.)
You'd think that if one of the soldiers in the garrison actually had those proportions, it would get mentioned in more places than just that battle. It's something deviating that far from the norm that you'd just have heard about it. Merchants and travellers passing through the city would have mentioned something.
So, anyway, I wouldn't take mythology as a source of factual data for anthropology or human evolution.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
The size of the bone found implies a Hobbit-sized race, not a Hobbit-like culture. The only thing we know so far is the size of those hominids. They did not live in a nice miniature village like the Shire; most probably they were primitive hunters, without even knowledge of agriculture.
I don't see the big deal over their size, though. Have we forgotten that there are already very short tribes around the world (pigmeys, for example)? what makes the 'Hobbit' one different?
Given how asians tend to be smaller in the first place, I don't see how this is all that exciting news. On top of that, nutrition and disease plays a huge part in height, so its entirely possible that these were not all that healthy of a group.
A slip of the foot you may soon recover, but a slip of the tongue you may never get over. -Benjamin Franklin