New Hopes From Sun's Idea Factory

UltimaGuy writes "While it's way too soon to say Sun is back on track, the return of Bechtolsheim, aggressive improvements in products and a healthy dose of humility among Sun's executives mean the troubled company and its investors have more cause for optimism than they've had in years." Of course, Sun's problems are still out there - dealing with projects like Geronimo for some of their base infrastructure, and of course other companies promoting Linux as the solution.

Comments

Back On Track?

[matr0x_x]

What determines when a company is "Back On Track"? In my opinion Sun was doing things right months ago... yet if you look at their stock (what really matters to a company) you'd never know it!

Re:Back On Track?

[jamesgamble]

A good stock price and progressive growth can mean a company is "back" to investors. Good support of its user base and new products and services help to show users that a company is "back". I think the second area is where Sun is/was lacking, and I believe that's what this article was making reference to. :)

Re:Back On Track?

[Anonymous Coward]

And also beat the dead horse a couple more times too for good luck.

Re:Back On Track?

[twiddlingbits]

No, positive cash flow, debt reduction and PROFITS, as well as MANAGED growth mean a company is back on track to investors. You can have great growth and lousy financials, or vice versa so one area alone does not mean a company is "back". There are several different theories and models to determine based on the financials what the "target" stock price should be fora firm with given performance in a specific market. A "good stock price" is a result of the investors willing to buy/sell at higher prices due to thier models (or gut feeling) telling them the data indicates the price will increase due to the firm making (more) profits, the market growing, or the firm capturing more market share. Ideally, all of these occur at once and the stock "breaks-out" and the price goes up rapidly.

Hardware

[xerid]

"and of course other companies promoting Linux as the solution"

I thought that Sun was a hardware company?

Re:Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you've never heard of Java before, then?
Or Solaris?

I can't tell if you've been living under a rock or smoking one, but clearly there's something wrong with you.

Re:Hardware

[ForumTroll]

You thought wrong. It's very clear to anyone with any knowledge of the subject that they offer much more than just hardware. I'm not quite sure why you feel that a company needs to be a "hardware" company or a "software" company as plenty of companies can do both...

Re:Hardware

[Markus_UW]

And well, as in Sun's case.

Re:Hardware

[spif]

They want to be a solutions provider - hardware, software and support. But their Kool-Aid is getting pretty stale. Their own platforms (Solaris and SPARC) are increasingly viewed as legacy stuff.

They need to reinvent themselves as an end-to-end solutions provider for Linux and dump (or at least really heavily de-emphasize) the rest. Forget about OpenSolaris - salvage what little is still worth anything in Solaris, GPL it and help integrate it into Linux. Stop designing, making and selling new SPARC hardware - give the platform to Fujitsu or Toshiba or whoever is stupid enough to want it. Focus entirely on making the best AMD64-based servers money can buy. Become the new high end of the Linux server market. Be the vendor that can sell you the complete package. Have support techs that know more about Red Hat than Red Hat.

But it won't happen, or it'll happen too little too late, because they have too much money, pride and identity invested in the legacy crap. What a waste.

Re:Hardware

[xerid]

I don't see how Linux negatively affects Java or server sales. They can offer both flavors of unix like others do, at which point it comes back to hardware. I might be wrong (and I'm willing to admit it), but I fail to see how Linux can hurt their hardware sales.

Re:Hardware

[Markus_UW]

AFAIK, the banks and telecom companies are still buying mad quantities of Solaris on SPARC. Why in their right minds, would sun switch their primary platform, and thus alienate all their loyal customers, who would then be put in the position of having to choose a new platform (which might or might not be provided by Sun).

Plus sun has some pretty revolutionary SPARC stuff coming out in the near future, Niagara and Rock being the two best examples. I have a funny feeling SPARC is here to stay for quite some time.

Plus did I mention that sun has about 40% of the Unix server market, which if I'm not mistaken is about four times the size of the Linux server market?

Re:Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

simple... when i spec'd our ISP systems it was SUN running Solais versus Dell running RHEL, the latter solution being 1/3rd the price as the former, primarily because of the hardware.

Re:Hardware

[xerid]

um, did you say hardware? thank you.

Re:Hardware

[linguae]

They need to reinvent themselves as an end-to-end solutions provider for Linux and dump (or at least really heavily de-emphasize) the rest. Forget about OpenSolaris - salvage what little is still worth anything in Solaris, GPL it and help integrate it into Linux. Stop designing, making and selling new SPARC hardware - give the platform to Fujitsu or Toshiba or whoever is stupid enough to want it. Focus entirely on making the best AMD64-based servers money can buy. Become the new high end of the Linux server market. Be the vendor that can sell you the complete package. Have support techs that know more about Red Hat than Red Hat.

Great, we'll just lose some more operating system and (especially) platform diversity. OpenSolaris is the best thing that can happen to Solaris, and I would like to see more competition between Solaris, Linux, and BSD (because competition leads to more innovation between the three OSes). There are many nice things and advantages to the Solaris platform that Linux could learn from. Besides, Solaris is a real Unix (based off AT&T Unix System V), whereas Linux is just a clone. Why would Sun drop something based on the real thing for an imitation? If Sun were to drop anything, I'd rather Sun adopt Plan 9 rather than Linux. At least Plan 9 is unique and different.

And with the SPARC platform, why would Sun drop that elegant platform for the inferior x86-64 architecture? (Don't get me wrong, I like the AMD64 a lot, but it is still based on that hideous x86 architecture, and the SPARC is much better designed). Over the past few years, we have lost a few well-designed platforms (Alpha, PA-RISC, PowerPC) to the x86, and the SPARC is the last holdout. I do not want to see an x86 monopoly on computing, but it looks like were heading for that. And when we're stuck with the x86 as our only platform, then innovation will slow down, and we might not see better platforms again.

Sun should continue what it has been doing; be a Unix company selling a Unix variant and workstations, and promoting Java (let's not forget that important part of Sun). We don't need another Linux PC manufacturer. If Sun degenerated to just selling Linux PCs, then Sun would die faster than you can say a BSD or Apple troll.

Re:Hardware

[johansalk]

There is a high end linux already and it's called Solaris.

Re:Hardware

[ForumTroll]

I agree with you in that I don't think Linux negatively affects Java or server sales. However, from what I've seen (I'm no expert on this subject either) Sun really wants to sell a package. They want to package their hardware with Solaris, Java etc. than offer support. I agree that hardware makes most of their money but I think the entire hardware/software/support package is what they're trying to do most.

Re:Hardware

[bersl2]

Over the past few years, we have lost a few well-designed platforms (Alpha, PA-RISC, PowerPC) to the x86

Who said POWER is dead? Netcraft?

Just because Apple drops PPC doesn't mean that the architecture is dead or dying.

Re:Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

I concur; the grandparent poster must be smoking some bad rock. Sun hardware is rivaled by very few offerings for heavy-duty enterprise environments. You'll be laughed out of most serious shops for suggesting anything but Sun for their critical apps.

Re:Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

Sun should continue what it has been doing; be a Unix company selling a Unix variant and workstations

Yes, because that's really been working out well for them.

Look, something had to change. They've made a few big changes - trying to reinvigorate Solaris, embracing x86 via AMD - but it remains to be seen if those changes are nearly big enough to turn things around.

Dumping SPARC and Solaris may or may not be a good idea, but for someone to suggest that is not insane. Someone suggesting that a company in the position Sun is in change nothing is insane. Unless you work for Red Hat or Dell, I guess.

Re:Hardware

[bheading]

Besides, Solaris is a real Unix (based off AT&T Unix System V), whereas Linux is just a clone.

What meaning does this statement have at the end of the day ? Why do I care about an operating system's pedigree ? Either it does what I want, or it does not. In fact, it seems pretty silly to market something solely on the basis that it still has ten year old bits of code floating around in it.

If Sun were to drop anything, I'd rather Sun adopt Plan 9 rather than Linux. At least Plan 9 is unique and different.

"unique and different" are two words which describe Microsoft. I wonder why their way of doing things appeal to you ? It may have escaped you that people want things that are standard and interoperable. I want to choose between vendors or open source products that just work. I don't want to see the wheel re-invented each go-round.

the SPARC is much better designed

The term "better designed" means nothing. Will it allow me to do my job better, or not ? Sure, x86 is a heap of shit. But if it performs better, why should I care ?

And when we're stuck with the x86 as our only platform, then innovation will slow down, and we might not see better platforms again.

Why are you so convinced that the world will reject a "better platform" ?

We don't need another Linux PC manufacturer.

There is no such thing as too much competition. Sun's hardware is among the best there is.

Re:Hardware

[Wiz]

Plus did I mention that sun has about 40% of the Unix server market, which if I'm not mistaken is about four times the size of the Linux server market?

Then you need to put down the kool-aid....

IBM was the leader in worldwide Unix server revenue with 31% share, while HP and Sun were statistically tied for the number two position, with 30.0% and 29.5% share, respectively.

The Linux market was $1.4 billion. Sun have 29.5% of a $4.3 billion market, which if my maths serves me correct is less than the Linux market.

As for why switch from SPARC? Price/performance is the main thing. Being able to use any x86 manufactuer with Linux is more flexible than Sun (or Fuji at a push) as a SPARC supplier. Niagara would be good for quiet web servers, but for any sort of real performance it isn't going to be there yet. Rock maybe more interesting, but that is sometime away yet. Sun's sales are currently declining too (and have done for a few years), so it isn't like SPARC is selling that well.

Re:Hardware

[Markus_UW]

Sorry, must have remembered a old stat or something, I guess I'm on Crack. But still, Sun's nowhere near dead, nor is the SPARC architecture.

Re:Hardware

[shmlco]

Forgive me, but that's a dumb solution. They're well known in the high-end market, and they're pretty busy mixing up new batches of Kool-Aid.

Your solution, however, would end up positioning them as yet another Linux X86 harware integrator in a commodity market, with little or no competitive advantage. And as much as Linux would like to think it's up to Solaris standards... it's not.

Re:Hardware

[HairyCanary]

So... if Sun has 29.5%, and HP has 30.0%, and IBM has 31%... how much does "Linux" have? 9.5%?

Perhaps you just tried to compare to completely different numbers to come up with an entirely invalid argument for an unsupportable position. Click on your hyperlink again and read it more thoroughly, it does not say anything which supports your claim.

Next.

Re:Hardware

[McSmithster]

"Focus entirely on making the best AMD64-based servers money can buy"

Ya cause you know selling low-end servers is where the money is at, especially with all the competitors. Just to let you know, there are a lot of companies that are laughing at you right now cause they wouldn't even bother touching a AMD based server.

"Become the new high end of the Linux server market."

That's actually really hard if all they are selling is AMD based servers cause AMD based servers are rarely if ever considered high end.

"Forget about OpenSolaris - salvage what little is still worth anything in Solaris, GPL it and help integrate it into Linux."

Cause we all must bow down to the penguin. That's the only cool thing to do. This is sun and well them and BSD go back a while and I don't think they are going to bow down to the penguin. Especially when you are selling high-end servers that need an optimized OS. Os's that are good for optimization would be BSD or Solaris. Linux is generally not as good for optimization but rather good all around. See the problem that might cause. Having a generically good OS decreases performance when the task at hand needs to be optimized.

I'm no expert, in fact I don't really know that much, but clearly you do not understand the scope of the products Sun sells and the customers they sell too. Sun's customer's need a high-end stable server with an OS that can be optimized and fine-tuned above and beyond any AMD based server running Linux could achieve. Penguins are good but they are not at the top of the food chain, especially in conditions like specialized high-end servers.

Re:Hardware

[Wiz]

Of Unix server sales? Linux has 0% because it is an OS not a tier 1 hardware provider!

As is also clearly stated in the above link, Linux has a $1.4 billion market and is separate from the Unix market (which I presume means Solaris, AIX, HPUX, etc).

Perhaps you should re-read it?

Re:Hardware

[linguae]

What meaning does this statement have at the end of the day ? Why do I care about an operating system's pedigree ? Either it does what I want, or it does not. In fact, it seems pretty silly to market something solely on the basis that it still has ten year old bits of code floating around in it.

Solaris could do anything and everything that Linux could do. Why would Sun switch from Solaris to Linux if Solaris can do everything that Linux can do?

"unique and different" are two words which describe Microsoft. I wonder why their way of doing things appeal to you ? It may have escaped you that people want things that are standard and interoperable. I want to choose between vendors or open source products that just work. I don't want to see the wheel re-invented each go-round.

You should read more about Plan 9. Plan 9 isn't a reinvention of the wheel; it is something completely different. And, yes, interoperatability is quite possible with Plan 9 (even though I must admit that Plan 9 is currently a research OS, so the applications are a bit lacking). I was just using Plan 9 as an example; if I were a corporation dropping my Unix product, I would rather go one step above the competition (Plan 9) rather than a sell a complete clone of something that I have already sold (Linux).

The term "better designed" means nothing. Will it allow me to do my job better, or not ? Sure, x86 is a heap of shit. But if it performs better, why should I care ?

Using a chip that is better designed for your purposes may get you more "miles per gallon" for your job. The SPARC may fit your needs if you want a very powerful workstation, the x86 may fit your needs if you want a PC. That's up to the customer to decide.

There is no such thing as too much competition. Sun's hardware is among the best there is.

You're right, there is no such thing as too much competition. However, I still believe that Sun is better off selling SPARC machines with Solaris than x86 machines with Linux. I have a feeling that Dell would just kill Sun if Sun made that move.

Re:Hardware

[Hosiah]

Huzzah! Well said, and append to your to-do list for Sun: they can take the damn chains off Java, already! It's just a hybrid programming language, not the Holy Grail.

Re:Hardware

[Anonymous Coward]

So Sun should become a Redhat and AD reseller? What then if I need to run a big database or a telcom applcaton? I'd have to go to IBM. No, Sun has it right. They are selling 1,2 and 4-way Operon systems
for the low end and low-midrange and SPARC at the high end. Solaris has many features that are really needed on larger systems. Now that Solaris is Open Source it may move fast.

As for desktop systems Solaris is not my first choise (and Yes I'm typing this on a Solaris 10 system) but then Liux is not not my first choise either. Apple is the leader there.

Re:Hardware

[rpozz]

Forget about OpenSolaris - salvage what little is still worth anything in Solaris, GPL it and help integrate it into Linux.

Outside of Slashdot, Solaris is still a serious OS and in many ways better than Linux. You also cannot simply cut and paste code from one kernel to another. If you want a server which is reasonably stable, you go for an x86 box running Linux. If you want one that absolutely cannot ever fail, and will be running for a long time you go with SPARC and Solaris. Although x86 may have a better power/performance ratio than SPARC, it really doesn't mean that it is always the better solution.

Re:Hardware

[bheading]

Solaris could do anything and everything that Linux could do.

Solaris and Linux are not equivalent in features, but this is not my point. My point was that Solaris' UNIX pedigree does not intrinsically make it better. Operating systems are not monarchies.

Why would Sun switch from Solaris to Linux if Solaris can do everything that Linux can do?

They'd do that if they were very silly. Since they aren't doing that, we can conclude that they are not silly. Linux is part of the strategy for every single IT integrator and vendor out there. Sun would be equally silly if they ignored it.

You should read more about Plan 9. Plan 9 isn't a reinvention of the wheel; it is something completely different.

So is Windows. There are aspects of Windows that are certainly done better than UNIX. But being different does not mean better. I'd much take a known, tried and trusted solution that I know will work with all my existing stuff, than take a redesign that requires me to throw all that away.

And, yes, interoperatability is quite possible with Plan 9

Interoperability is quite possible with Windows, but is such a pain that it's easier not to.

if I were a corporation dropping my Unix product,

There is no evidence that Sun is killing Solaris; quite the contrary. But anyway.

I would rather go one step above the competition (Plan 9) rather than a sell a complete clone of something that I have already sold (Linux).

Plan 9 isn't competitive, that is why nobody uses it. If you tried to ship your machines with that OS, you'd quickly die. If I were a shareholder in your corporation, I'd be asking for your head on a plate.

The SPARC may fit your needs if you want a very powerful workstation, the x86 may fit your needs if you want a PC. That's up to the customer to decide.

The SPARC isn't more powerful than the x86 in the vast majority of cases - that is the issue here. It may have cleaner SMP design, nicer caching and a more sensible instruction set, but that is precisely bugger all use to me if the x86 crunches my numbers twice as fast.

However, I still believe that Sun is better off selling SPARC machines with Solaris than x86 machines with Linux. I have a feeling that Dell would just kill Sun if Sun made that move.

Sun knows the server and enterprise market in a way that Dell just doesn't comprehend. It offers levels of service and support that a souped-up clone builder like Dell can't touch. There are people out there willing to pay top dollar of all the nines. It doesn't matter what hardware it is at the end of the day.

Re:Hardware

[Mangelwulf]

Is AMD based on x86? I know it is compatable, but I thought it had a RISC architecture at its base, with the x86 as a compatablity layer?

I dunno...

[BJZQ8]

I dunno if I'd count jumping on the Linux/Open Source bandwagon "back on track" or not...I'd like to see some new ideas from them, but I haven't seen anything original yet, besides, perhaps, using AMD in a big way.

Re:I dunno...

[ForumTroll]

Considering how long Sun has been working with Linux and how much source code they've released to the Open Source community I'd hardly classify them as "jumping on the bandwagon". There are few companies that give back as much to the community as Sun and yet they continue to do so even with hoards of people like you demanding more.

Would you prefer companies not "jump on the bandwagon" and just ignore Linux all together?

Re:I dunno...

[BJZQ8]

I'd much rather them get into Linux for the right reasons, ie getting actively involved in the community development process, rather than getting into Linux because it's the hot button of the moment. But in any case, yes, I'm VERY glad they are into Linux. As the old guard UNIX systems are taken offline one by one, I very much hope they are all rolled into Linux instead of walled off into Windows.

Re:I dunno...

[greg_barton]

I dunno if I'd count jumping on the Linux/Open Source bandwagon "back on track" or not...

This may be a bit simplistic, but I've got some recent experience navigating between the two. I just built my new dual core Athlon X2 system this weekend. Tried out Solaris 10 on it first. Took about 4 hours to install. Tried out the scimark java benchmark and was quite underwhelmed with a 263 composite score. Installed Gentoo 2005.1, compiling kde and the blackdown-jdk packages. Took about 2 hours. Scimark composite score: 519. Yes, almost twice as fast. Tried the Sun 1.5 JVM, just to compare apples with apples: composite score of 569, well over double of solaris.

So I know what I'm going to use...

Re:I dunno...

[Anonymous Coward]

So I take it that you've looked at the new features that were part of
Solaris 10
and the community that has already formed around
OpenSolaris and the new
Niagara-based line
along with the new AMD64 servers, before deciding that there isn't anything
original being done?

Who would you say is doing original things in these areas then?

Re:I dunno...

[BJZQ8]

Original for them, perhaps, but not for the industry. Sun has made such terrifying missteps in the past that they need something other than simply doing what IBM, Novell and such are doing. I don't know what that would be, but something spectacular, other than just Linux.

I think that the StorageTek acquisition was a

[multiplexo]

good thing, especially since Sun is not going to fuck with StorageTek, they're going to run it as a separate division of the company and start selling StorageTek storage products with Sun servers and close out Sun's line of storage products (which were just rebranded from Hitachi and other vendors anyway). Sun's storage offerings were overpriced and underwhelming, with StorageTek in house they have a good thing becuase regardless of what platform wins out in the future (Linux, Solaris, Solaris x86, Windoze, Plan 9) people are going to need lots and lots of storage space for their pr0n, warez and MP3, oops, I mean corporate data. Now if Sun can only get rid of the shit ugly purple and grey color scheme they have on the Sparc boxen they might be able to stage a huge comeback.

Re:I think that the StorageTek acquisition was a

[Markus_UW]

My sentiments exactly, especially about the colour scheme.

Re:I think that the StorageTek acquisition was a

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the purple and grey that was in the serverline ever since sparc-center 2000 time didn`t hurt them - the enterprise 10000 was their mainstay for years, it wasnt ugly, it was grey and purple. most importantly it had what the customers needed (power, power, power), i guess no one bought one for color, or went to ibm for color. they have the same ugly black for years. sgi didn`t go down for the change from brown to green or purple. the only ones where color matters is apple and taiwanese apple-copier companies. get real.
i`ld rather have a sparc multicore/smt cpu - even if the boxes where orange/purple or poisongreen dotted on yellow.

TPC/C is colorblind ;-)

Re:I think that the StorageTek acquisition was a

[Anonymous Coward]

good thing, especially since Sun is not going to fuck with StorageTek, they're going to run it as a separate division of the company and start selling StorageTek storage products with Sun servers and close out Sun's line of storage products (which were just rebranded from Hitachi and other vendors anyway). Sun's storage offerings were overpriced and underwhelming, with StorageTek in house they have a good thing becuase regardless of what platform wins out in the future (Linux, Solaris, Solaris x86, Windoze, Plan 9) people are going to need lots and lots of storage space for their pr0n, warez and MP3, oops, I mean corporate data. Now if Sun can only get rid of the shit ugly purple and grey color scheme they have on the Sparc boxen they might be able to stage a huge comeback.

"boxen"? You are the ghey. Join the Spanish Navy already, poofter!

Humility and Sun in the same sentence?

[skitheboat]

Does this include Scott McNealy or has he hired a CHO (Chief Humility Officer) to be humble for him? Maybe I need to start following Sun again, I gave them up for dead a couple of years ago.

Re:Humility and Sun in the same sentence?

[aminorex]

For a while their over-inflated stock price (110:1 P/E, was it?) made them seem much larger than they really were, but they're still enormous and have a multi-billion-dollar warchest.
They've also got a lot of technical talent, and even if the middle-management was positively cancerous in at the turn-of-the-century, hopefully the flattening that came with belt-tightening after the dotcom crash pruned that dead wood and they can become an engine of innovative technology applications once more. I think they're a steal now, at 3.95/share, and I'd even take a job there, if they were doing something interesting.

Re:Humility and Sun in the same sentence?

[skitheboat]

Well said, I have owned Sun stok a couple of times and did well with it. What dissppoints me is how their egos got in the way of some many opportunities to improve. They are in similar position that Apple was for so many years where they have tremendous brand equity and loyal customers but haven't been willing or able to do what it would take ot turn things around. It often takes a big ego to soldier through and be successful but it can take you down even faster if you don't shift your strategy when the game changes. I wish them the best

They already support linux

[kingsqueak]

Sun already supports both Redhat and SuSE in addition to Solaris on their x86 hardware.

They've got some interesting things on the way, though it's quite a big departure from business as usual for them. Will be interesting to see if they keep the vision and follow through.

Re:They already support linux

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Don't forget: they're also supporting Windows on their x86 hardware.

Re:They already support linux

[southpolesammy]

Not quite -- Sun have certified that their Opteron systems can run Windows, but they do not support the OS whatsoever.

Thank the DoD

[N8F8]

I'm pretty sure the DoD singlehandedly props up Sun. As a developer I find Sun/Solaris a complete paint-in-the-ass to work with. Impossible to find binary versions for most packages, endless back-and-forth dealing with version dependencies, and ordering a server that didn't come with a CD drive, DVD drive or video card? Puhhleeeze. Then the admins blindly install Sun updates and we all get to be Sun's gunieapigs learning side-effects.

Re:Thank the DoD

[twiddlingbits]

Really? The HUGE amount of Sun servers I've seen in Corp. Data Centers don't count? If the DoD props up anyone it is Silicon Graphics. Talk about proprietary everything.

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry did you say "paint-in-the-ass"?

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm pretty sure the DoD singlehandedly props up Sun.

Then you'd be wrong. Sun's biggest customers (and thus their bread and butter) are the Telecom companies. Sun makes no secret of this.

As a developer I find Sun/Solaris a complete paint-in-the-ass to work with.

Really?

Impossible to find binary versions for most packages

I assume you're referring to the Open Source Software that Sun Freeware provides binaries for, and not the commercial software? Because I can't say I see much Solaris software in binary form.

endless back-and-forth dealing with version dependencies

You mean patch levels? Bah, that's easy. Sun tells you which patches you need for a package up front, then provides you with all of them. Try keeping an RPM system up to date sometime. Now THAT is pain and anguish.

and ordering a server that didn't come with a CD drive, DVD drive or video card?

Whoever ordered that server must have explicitly not wanted a drive. AFAIK, all Sun servers have CD or DVD drives by default. Otherwise you'd have a hard time installing all that software that Sun sends with the machine.

Then the admins blindly install Sun updates and we all get to be Sun's gunieapigs learning side-effects.

This differs from MSCEs, how again?

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

s/Solaris software in binary form./Solaris software in source form./g

Re:Thank the DoD

[ForumTroll]

As a developer I find the complete opposite. I would much rather work with Solaris (or BSD) in a server environment than any other OS. I've had no problems finding binary versions of any packages and even if I did it's not like compiling from source is a problem.... Dependency problems happen no where near as often as they do in Linux and generally they can be resolved very easily if you know what you're doing. As to your admins blindly installing Sun updates, this speaks more about the quality of your admins than it says anything about Sun. No updates for any OS are perfect especially when you're admins just "blindly install" them.

It's interesting how you didn't touch on any of the good aspects of Solaris that can't be found in any other OS. Perhaps, if you look at some of the internals of Solaris you would see why the DoD is using it.

Re:Thank the DoD

[stefanlasiewski]

Bah. There are plenty of Sun boxes in the private sector. If I walk around our floor at the colocation facility I can see a dozen cages for large companies. There are more then 500 computers total. Half of them are Sun machines.

Re:Thank the DoD

[the eric conspiracy]

Then you'd be wrong. Sun's biggest customers (and thus their bread and butter) are the Telecom companies. Sun makes no secret of this.

Yes, and I haven't seen any indication that this is about to change. Whenever I suggest doing a project based on an X86 cluster they look at me like I have 3 heads.

Re:Thank the DoD

[Markus_UW]

Why would they change platforms? What they have now does the job and well. There's less work to keep it the same.

Re:Thank the DoD

[millette]

brings forth the image of a rainbow butt monkey ;)

Re:Thank the DoD

[Markus_UW]

If you look in our server room, it's completely dominated by Sun Boxes, but then again, we're running solaris on sunrays for our desktops.

Re:Thank the DoD

[DarthBart]

ordering a server that didn't come with a CD drive, DVD drive or video card? Puhhleeeze.

Video card? Buh. Serial consoles. Dragging a keyboard, monitor, and mouse around the datacenter sucks.

Re:Thank the DoD

[molo]

ordering a server that didn't come with a CD drive, DVD drive or video card? Puhhleeeze.

Serial console. You can mount a CD or DVD with NFS to a workstation. These are *servers* we're talking about here. Not workstations.

-molo

Re:Thank the DoD

[fimbulvetr]

While I like sun, you're spreading lies.

It's true you can use sun freeware, and you're right about the DoD not being the only (big) customer, however:

Try keeping an RPM system up to date sometime. Now THAT is pain and anguish.
It used to be this way, however, I'm running quite a few RHEL2 + RHEL3 servers and the RPM/Up2date setups are pretty friggen slick. Almost apt slick. I haven't had a dependency problem yet. I don't have version problems (Now like Debian, they don't increment versions, they backport fixes so you don't have to redo your conf files). They work great. Stop spreading this FUD.

Whoever ordered that server must have explicitly not wanted a drive. AFAIK, all Sun servers have CD or DVD drives by default.
He's right, you're wrong. Some machines, like 220/240r, do not come with cd/dvd drive unless you order one (or at least this is the way it was last year). Now, you really only need to learn this lesson once, but it's still not very sane IMHO. However, I can it being an add-on item when you're buying these by the truckload. Sun assumes (mostly correctly) that you're not going to be installing these bad boys by hand. They expect you're going to use the default solaris install or a jumpstart configuration because it'd be insane to by-hand these when you buy 100 at a time.

Re:Thank the DoD

[the eric conspiracy]

Why would they change platforms?

Cost.

Re:Thank the DoD

[linguae]

The x86 may be cheaper, but it doesn't mean that it is better.

Unfortunately for the SPARC, PowerPC, Alpha, and the rest of them, people don't want a great architecture; they'll settle for "good enough."

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

Bah. If you walk around our offices, there's a Sun machine or three one very single desk.

Then again, I work at Sun. :D

Re:Thank the DoD

[bajan_on_ice]

DoD probably orders servers without video cards, cd/dvd drives on purpose. There are some DoD sites which have server manfactureres metal epoxy all of the USB/Firewire ports on their servers before they are even let into the datacenter. It may well be part of their security best practices.

Re:Thank the DoD

[N8F8]

That is what we ended up doing until the parts coem in but we had to "borrow" through someone else's server on the rack.

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

Otherwise you'd have a hard time installing all that software that Sun sends with the machine.

Solaris comes pre-installed (and you usually have the choice of version). Also, why would you waste your time installing through CD? Set up a JumpStart server once and let things run overnight.

Re:Thank the DoD

[civilizedINTENSITY]

Bah ha! If you walk around our labs, we use Sun machines as desks!

Re:Thank the DoD

[mcrbids]

Try keeping an RPM system up to date sometime. Now THAT is pain and anguish.

(Ahem)

Want to get ALL updates for a particular install?

yum -y update

Or, just want to install package foo?

yum install foo

Maybe you want to get rid of foo?

yum unsinstall foo

Maybe you want to install package foo from source?

cd .../foo; ./configure && make && checkinstall -t r

(All the dependencies for source package foo are now tracked by yum)

Yeah. Real friggen hard... I'm able to keep my servers patched and updated for a monthly investment of about 10 minutes each... No kidding...

yum -y update

Things "breaking" is just very, very rare. (I can only think of one time it happened with privsep in ssh, and that was easily fixed)

Re:Thank the DoD

[fantastic]

Reading the financial report. GE is the biggest customer or reseller/financer. The revenue from GE has been declining each year

Re:Thank the DoD

[mislam]

Are you serious? Why would I want require a video card on my server? Or are you talking about the workstations?

CD/DVD drives are only needed if you do not insta/boot from network. Most of the shops using sparcs already have process to handle netboot/installation and do not need a dvd/cd drive.

Re:Thank the DoD

[aminorex]

That's because even obsolete sun hardware is rock-stable. Your old Dells are in a landfill, by way of comparison.

Re:Thank the DoD

[Anonymous Coward]

Forget serial consoles. Network serial consoles rock.
Plug the box in, config the network serial console the first time. Go back to the comfy cube and do everything from there, not in the datacenter.
I try to never touch a box after I get it racked and powered up. Power failures and hardware failures are about the only reason I touch a machine after I install it.

Actually, the low end boxes mostly don't come with CD/DVD drives, but with Jumpstart they aren't neccessary either. The things the $745 servers are missing that I need are a hard disk and the remote management cards.

Re:Thank the DoD

[the eric conspiracy]

The x86 may be cheaper, but it doesn't mean that it is better.

The problem is that any advantage the Sparc architecture may have is swamped by cost. I can build a 200 CPU Athlon rack with 2 TB of RAM for the same price a single well configured V-890 (8 CPU/64 GB RAM) goes for. The Sparc may be better, but 25 times better.

Re:Thank the DoD

[Thundersnatch]

Then the admins blindly install Sun updates and we all get to be Sun's gunieapigs learning side-effects.

This differs from MSCEs, how again?

Because Sun is supposed to be "better" than the commodity stuff. Enterprise & carrier grade. Right?

I remember when folks used to pay those big monthly dollars to Sun, IBM, et. all because they tested just about everything thoroughly for you on an exact copy of your production environment. That's why they were called service contracts. Of course you couldn't do anything non-standard with the box or you'd break the SLA, and executives are basically cheap at their core, so the world moved on in search of greater flexibility and more downtime. So now we have Linux and Windows on x86.

Serious Marketing Issues

[mpapet]

IMHO, they've still got serious marketing issues.

1. In the licenses I've read through, they do not make much, if anything clear as to what exactly the customer gets with the license.
2. What are their unique selling points? Don't say "java" because it's free. Or, maybe it's not. It's too hard to tell.
3. Is their hardware sooo much better than vanilla PC's?

If someone could please post a list of their strongest products that would be helpful. I have a hard time understanding their relevance. Again, "java" isn't helpful because it seems to be there are a number of alternatives fast-approaching.

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

1) ROCK solid hardware. I've literally seen a Sun machine (A rather big and heavy SunBlade 2000) be dropped down a flight of stairs, and still boot up and run no problem. I've also seen 10+ year old Sun sparc32 systems still in use today with almost clear maintinance logs all the way back.

2) Very good vendor-side support in terms of faulty hardware or spare parts. Can be expensive at times, but you get more than what you pay for.

3) With Sun's hardware/software stack (stuff like ALOM, for example) you can do neat stuff you simply cannot do with any other platform. Might not be the easiest to click your way through installing, but once its up and running nothing can compete.

4) Need to take that hard drive out of your 1 CPU e250 server and shove it into a big 64CPU e10k and have it boot/work? Need to hot swap some CPUs? Need the speed of internal FC-AL hard disks? Cant live without that 24gb of ram? ... Sun to the rescue..

5) Sun is one of the VERY few vendors to provide a software stack certified for use "in the operation of a nuclear facility" .... take that for what it's worth .... .. just off the top of my head .. I'm sure I'll think of half a dozen more in the time it takes slashdot to post this comment ...

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Markus_UW]

Mod parent up, so people see it, it's fairly informative, and most relevant.

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Their strongest products?

Sun Fire x2100 - dirt cheap 64bit 1U server
Sun Fire x4100 - cheap enterprise class dual socket 64bit server
Sun Fire x4200 - slightly more expensive, more expandable dual socket 64bit server

The 3 servers above are some of the best rackmount servers in the x86 industry.

Of course Sun have decent SPARC products as well, Dual Core UltraSPARC-IV+ (72 CPU sockets, 144 processor cores) at the high end and cheap 1U's at the low.

Then there are upcoming products: Niagra (32 threads of execution on a 1.4Ghz chip, rumoured to under test by eBay and Google), Rock (multi-thread high end chip being developed with Fujitsu), Honeycomb (storage device), Linux Application Environment (run linux apps on Solaris x86 with no special command).

And... Solaris. It's been Suns best product for a long time.

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Rock is not co-developed with Fujitsu, Sun and Fujitsu are co-developing the APL server line (with Sun doing most of the system architecture and Fujitsu working on the SPARC64 CPU.

Rock is an evolution of the Niagara-type architecture but with high single thread performance and SMP capability (Niagara is aimed at many, many low compute-intensive threads whereas Rock is aimed at bringing datacentre class SMP systems down onto the chip).

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

5) Sun is one of the VERY few vendors to provide a software stack certified for use "in the operation of a nuclear facility

Bullshit, read Sun's binary code license. It they clearly state that the use of any of their software for such mission critical tasks is not advised:

2. RESTRICTIONS. Software is confidential and copyrighted. Title to
Software and all associated intellectual property rights is retained
by Sun and/or its licensors. Except as specifically authorized in any
Supplemental License Terms, you may not make copies of Software, other
than a single copy of Software for archival purposes. Unless
enforcement is prohibited by applicable law, you may not modify,
decompile, or reverse engineer Software. You acknowledge that
Software is not designed, licensed or intended for use in the design,
construction, operation or maintenance of any nuclear facility. Sun
disclaims any express or implied warranty of fitness for such uses.
No right, title or interest in or to any trademark, service mark, logo
or trade name of Sun or its licensors is granted under this Agreement.

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem for Sun is money, and going into the x86 business is not a good way of making money.

Re:Serious Marketing Issues

[Anonymous Coward]

Dont take my word for it, call thier sales droids and ask ..

Thier -FREE BINARY- version of $PRODUCT isnt the one they sell to government agencies and the like ... If you had the smarts to look up the binary license, surely you have the smarts to realise this...

Geronimo info

[millette]

Maybe we want to know more about Geronimo before deciding to download it.

Re:Geronimo info

[mparaz]

IBM offers support for Geronimo. That's competition on the services front. They are even hosting a contest on Sourceforge.

Re:Geronimo info

[Anonymous Coward]

Cherokee, another web server with a native american name, has potential to gain mindshare despite the Apache/Geronomo alliance. Web admins who are tired of Apache's "spookieness" should give it a look.

I'm looking forward to the day when an open source operating system isn't considered great just because it is slightly more stable than Windows and an open source web server isn't considered great just because it isn't quite as spooky as IIS.

SUN is setting....

[katorga]

I'm a long time Sun user from sparc1 thru my current F15s, and I think its over. Sun is starting the long decline so familiar to the workstation vendors. Think HP PA-RISC and SGI. Basically, I bought SUN to stay 5 years ahead of the PC technology curve.

Sadly, Sun could not maintain the technology lead and as they move to x86 servers, the argument that low cost x86 systems are 90% as good for half the price starts to be felt. I pay a premium to be ahead of the curve.

OSS is going to canibalize Sun on the software side unless they become a services and integration company of OSS stacks.

Re:SUN is setting....

[Anonymous Coward]

OSS can capitalize on price mostly, but it is low quality. So there are natural limits to how far OSS can go. I do agree though that vendors like Sun and Oracle are getting hit in the very big "good-enough" market, but I think that in the case of Sun at least, they are taking measures to counter this trend. Sun was good to survive its recent decline and I think that unlike so many others like it before, it will have a rather successful future.

Re:SUN is setting....

[Zemplar]

Who cares about some "PC technology curve"?

What really is important is the performance, power consumption, and price at which you can accomplish your computing goals. The Operton's have a great balance of all three factors and Sun is packaging, yes PACKAGING, some great hardware at a great price and very low power consumption in their x86 line. Who really cares if Sun has the chip designed/made from scratch when at the end of the day all you really should care about is results and not who made your machine so you can brag about it.

If you really think you need Sparc, you could likely double your power by using Sun's high-quality x86 products in place, such as their amazing quad dual-core Opteron V40z servers.

For the record, I have a Sun W2100z x86 Opteron system but could care less about having Sparc as the current equipment is more than capable and provides excellent performance at a fraction of the cost of Sparc for my use. Sparc certainly is a great product and I welcome it and wished it were the standard instead of x86, but until that is ever realized, I'm simply results oriented.

The apparent x86 motto: "Do more with less" [you define 'less']
The apparent Sparc motto: "Work smarter, not harder" [and anyone/thing smart always costs more]

Google partnership could be....

[ChrisGilliard]

the start to great things for Sun. Right now, all they've announced is some small things like buying each other's stuff and including the Google Toolbar with JRE downloads. But if you think about it, who has Google announced a partnership (other than the AOL deal last week which was mainly a defensive move against MS)? So you really have to take this partnership seriously. Now, with Google Wi-Fi rolling out, what's the next thing for Google to offer? Well, what about Sun-Ray's? It might not be possible to offer a Sun-Ray that connects over Google Wi-Fi for free right now, but in 5 - 10 years it will be (Moore's law makes hardware about 30% cheaper every year). I believe Google will wait until the hardware is cheap enough to be funded by advertising and give it away. The question is which hardware will they use. Clearly with this partnership announcement, Sun's Sun-Ray platform has taken the lead.

Re:Google partnership could be....

[Iriel]

I'm not quite sure if I would go with the Google/Sun-Ray machines idea, to possibly err on the side of economics. Maybe (and this is giant maybe) but maybe still, Sun could provide hardware resources to run Google's local Wi-Fi locations is my guess to start the partnership.

And still, some of me wonders if this is just hype only for the fact that Google did partner with Sun for something yet to be disclosed and so investors assume that whatever they're going to do must be good.

Re:Google partnership could be....

[ChrisGilliard]

Hmmm, but to run a Wi-Fi hot spot, you don't need a lot of hardware. In particular you don't need the kind of hardware Sun makes. You need wireless routers.

Currently a Sun Ray is about $500. That includes a VERY nice 19" flat panel. This is not particularily over priced given that flat panel monitors can cost $500 alone. I'd imagine that they could make models even cheaper and if you're talking about selling kazillions of them, they could do it much cheaper by mass producing them. Also, as I mentioned in 5-10 years, you could do this cheaper due to the systematic decrease in hardware cost per transistor. It's not so much of a question of if, it's a question of when and with what hardware.

Re:Google partnership could be....

[Iriel]

Like I said, I'm not an expert on this, but that was just my thought. Thanks for the info ^_^

Sun's new cheaper servers

[gtoomey]

Sun has some new AMD64 servers priced very aagressivly from $745 http://www.sun.com/servers/entry/x2100/

They are trying to take on Dell in the lower end, thru to the SMP "big iron" machines as well.

Re:Sun's new cheaper servers

[Zemplar]

Not just that, but some suggest Sun's new servers are also designed to be used by Google, which if I recall correctly, has over 100,000 estimated servers.

Sun is also on the right track to target Developers with their very affordable Ultra 20 in addition to their higher performing, and more costly, workstations.

Re:Sun's new cheaper servers

[Anonymous Coward]

"They are trying to take on Dell in the lower end"

There is the problem, there is no money there and Sun need a new cash cow. Competing with low cost x86 is a dead end for Sun, nearly no one is making much money in that business, except Dell.

He was a jew too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Jew too! It's true.
Burn them, two by two!

Re:He was a jew too!

[Anonymous Coward]

Hey,

I'm a Jew to.

I've never fucked my cousin though.

But I did leave my wife for a more attractive woman.

Re:Ummm...

[$RANDOMLUSER]

OK, here's a scenario that's all too real:
You're doing your bi-annual disaster recovery drill. Do you:
1. run a script to restore your configurations.
2. spend two days clicking checkboxes and updating text fields.

I know which one I prefer...

Re:Einstein fucked his cousin and stole his ideas

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Thanks for the live demo on the dangers of inbreeding.

Sun the great equalizer!!

[HampiRocks]

I will always have a soft corner in my heart for sun. Sun's java language made it possible for many developers from developing countries to compete in the commercial software market. Free JAVA meant that it was easy to learn the language. No question that the open-source tools like tomcat were the other barrier breakers.

Sun always had been a company with a scoial conscience, dontaing hardware and software to colleges all over the world. It is nice that they have finally accepted the market trends (like x86) and decided to go with them.

Bandwagon

[PCM2]

It seems to me that people think Sun is jumping on the bandwagon because Sun insists on using its own vanity license, rather than any of the pre-existing open source licenses. This leads people to believe that Sun is only putting one toe into open source but reserving the right to jump out any time the water gets too hot for it. Sort of an "open source license hokey-pokey."

I can't say whether that is or is not the intent of the CDDL; I can't speak for Sun. But from where I sit, the fact that Sun execs go around telling people that Sun is and always has been an open source friendly company, nay, that indeed it practically invented open source single-handedly -- well, that's not helping Sun's case. It makes the whole effort seem disingenuous.

Re:Bandwagon

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm curious why you term CDDL as a vanity license? Given the effort that went into evaluating
open source licenses for OpenSolaris and other open-source projects that Sun is sponsoring, it
would have been far cheaper to have use something like MPL. However, there were specific issues
with the other licenses (see some of the rationale)
that would have prevented OpenSolaris from being released. And though Sun could have waited and
tried to get those licenses rev'ed, it decided to instead make some clear and rather small modifications
to an existing license and get that OSI-approved. It seems Sun was damned if they had waited for the
other licenses to be changed and damned if they proposed their own (and rarely credited for basing their
license on something established like MPL and then making the necessary small changes to that it could
be used for these open-source projects).

Also, where have you ever seen Sun says it invented open-source (single-handedly, no less?) They
certainly have tried to make it clear that they're not new to the open-source ballgame and what's wrong
with that, given the general ignorance and hostility seen on forums like this?

some hints for Sun management

[idlake]

• If you want to restore credibility, follow through on the commitment you made 10 years ago and make Java into an ISO/ANSI standard, with no strings attached.
  
• Stop worrying about Microsoft trying to take away Java from you--that has already happened, and you only have yourself to blame for it.
  
• Stop interfering with open source projects and drop your compatibility requirements--they are unenforceable, nobody gives a damn, and you only hurt yourself by antagonizing people with them.
  
• When it comes to Java toolkits, either put up or shut up--either open source Swing or stop whining when people roll their own (SWT).
  
• Let the market decide on APIs, not some bloated self-appointed "standards" body (the JCP).
  
• Fix Java's numerical problems.
  
• Face the facts: C# and the CLR are here and there are here to stay; if you want to have any relevance again, figure out how to integrate C#, Java, CLR, and JVM. You might start with a port of Java's APIs and a Java compiler to the CLR, and, conversely, support C# on the JVM. Eventually, you might create a dual JVM/CLR implementation (it's not that hard).
  
• Stop bad-mouthing open source--it only pisses of the few potential supporters you still have. You could start gaining some credibility by firing Schwartz.
  
• Stop trying to do user interface work--every single Sun UI project has been a dismal failure; leave window systems, toolkits, and programming environments to other people.
  
• Stop being such gearheads; nobody really cares anymore whether your kernel is any better--you aren't going to rise back to glory with a better kernel.
  
• Oh, McNealy, by the way, you aren't Bill Gates and you never will be.
  

Frankly, while those recommendations may improve your chances, I still think Sun's future is bleak. Sun got big early on because they sold cheap machines with software that did stuff nobody else did, and they sold it to people like me who then, for about a decade, were loyal customers. But all of that is history. If Sun doesn't want to disappear completely, they still need a better strategy than selling Opterons.

Re:some hints for Sun management

[Anonymous Coward]

Who modded this a 5? Clearly this guy knows nothing of Java, open source or Sun's open source positions.

Re:some hints for Sun management

[Anonymous Coward]

• If you want to restore credibility, follow through on the commitment you made 10 years ago and make Java into an ISO/ANSI standard, with no strings attached.

Hah? Who at Sun said that and when? Link please.

• Stop worrying about Microsoft trying to take away Java from you--that has already happened, and you only have yourself to blame for it.

And again, hah? Microsoft spent $2B to make that problem go away; that's a nice paycheck to Sun for doing that particular bit of "worrying."

• Stop interfering with open source projects and drop your compatibility requirements--they are unenforceable, nobody gives a damn, and you only hurt yourself by antagonizing people with them.

I think you'd find that to be debatable, but the only proof would come if they did drop the requirements and the inevitable swarm of things called "Java" that weren't started making everyone's life a living hell.

• When it comes to Java toolkits, either put up or shut up--either open source Swing or stop whining when people roll their own (SWT).

Ah, the whirring sound of axes being ground.

• Let the market decide on APIs, not some bloated self-appointed "standards" body (the JCP).

Because Standards are Bad.

• Stop bad-mouthing open source--it only pisses of the few potential supporters you still have.

Yeah, Sun's been pretty down on open source these days.

You could start gaining some credibility by firing Schwartz.

What, and miss out on gems like this?

• Stop being such gearheads; nobody really cares anymore whether your kernel is any better--you aren't going to rise back to glory with a better kernel.

Because Innovation is Bad.

• Oh, McNealy, by the way, you aren't Bill Gates and you never will be.

Feature.

Frankly, while those recommendations

...which boil down to "I have a beef with the way you run Java, I don't like your execs, and I've got a minor chubby for Microsoft"

may improve your chances, I still think Sun's future is bleak. Sun got big early on because they sold cheap machines with software that did stuff nobody else did, and they sold it to people like me who then, for about a decade, were loyal customers. But all of that is history. If Sun doesn't want to disappear completely, they still need a better strategy than selling Opterons.

Good thing for them, then, that their strategy is a heck of a lot more than selling Opterons.

Re:some hints for Sun management

[Anonymous Coward]

Who modded this a 5? Clearly this guy knows nothing of Java, open source or Sun's open source positions.

It doesn't work that way. Java developers that Sun pissed off aren't going to come back because Sun paid a large chunk of money for OOo. And Sun's Java mistakes aren't limited to bad policies towards open source.

Re:some hints for Sun management

[Anonymous Coward]

...which boil down to "I have a beef with the way you run Java, I don't like your execs, and I've got a minor chubby for Microsoft"

Ah, yes, typical Sun thinking; as if the whole world revolved around Sun's private little war with Microsoft. Keep deluding yourself that Sun's problem is Microsoft. The problem with Sun is Sun.

Good thing for them, then, that their strategy is a heck of a lot more than selling Opterons.

I'm sure it is; sadly, selling Opterons is the best part of it.

Re:some hints for Sun management

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ah, yes, typical Sun thinking; as if the whole world revolved around Sun's private little war with Microsoft."

Well, first of all, I'm not Sun. Second of all, in TFA, the *only* thing it says about Sun and Microsoft is that Sun "supports use of [their systems with] Microsoft Windows. Ooh, clear evidence that Sun is obsessing about Microsoft.

On the *other* hand, the post I responded to was pretty much a rant about Java and Microsoft, including:

        "Stop worrying about Microsoft"
        "C# and the CLR are here and there are here to stay"
        "figure out how to integrate C#"
        "support C# on the JVM"

and of course,

        "McNealy, by the way, you aren't Bill Gates"

So who's got Microsoft on the brain?

Geronimo...?

[ChrisRijk]

Why exactly does this get a special mention? It's not like Sun makes lots of money (directly) off J2EE app servers - IBM WebSphere and BEA are the ones who would feel the most pain if average prices fell a lot.

In addition, cheap/free J2EE servers have been around for a while. I think JBoss got proper J2EE certification recently too...

Sun also has an Open Source J2EE server - GlassFish.

It could go either way.

[nortcele]

Our company used to be nearly a complete Sun shop. I see Sun's problem as hanging on to their beloved Sparc CPU technology and Scott McNealy too long. It didn't work out as they planned (open Sparc technology did not get adopted). Then Dell came in cut the legs from under Sun. Now we use NetApp filers. And Exchange (I know. I dislike it too. Our company is in so cozy with Microsoft that Melinda gets jealous.) The most recent Google/Sun media presentation left me with the feeling that Scott McNealy no longer has the vision or inspiration to lead Sun. He has only buzz words and little passion and blue jeans. Jonathan Schwartz with a hair cut might be a more inspiring leader.

However, the tide seems to be turning a little. While Management has been sucking up to Dell and Microsoft, our little trench workers are learning and liking Linux. The AMD Galaxy boxes from Sun (specifically the 4200) have our manufacturing folk interested. Cost is good. Redundant power supplies with separate power to each. Solaris 10, Redhat, SuSE, and Windows support. Way faster (seriously... quite a bit) than comparably priced servers from Dell. You mileage may vary, but our use of them for our CPU intensive tasks look promising. Reliability yet to be determined.

Gone are the days of Veritas and Sun Clustering. The NetApps cover the file storage, and the Sun Galaxy may be the CPU to run our stuff. However, I don't see where Sun is going to get rich off the new hardware. They used to soak us for support. Our dept stopped forking over money for that years ago and took care of it themselves. I don't see Sun making money without extensive support contracts... but the blindly paid-for support contracts of old have dried up. I own Sun stock and am upside down in it. Here's to hoping that it will turn around.

Trust is hard to earn back.

[WebbedWell]

Alright, while I don't pretend to downplay the genious of a company who has always grabbed headlines since the inception of computing as we know today, there are more issues than innovation in which a CTO must underwrite. Trust is an important factor. How does Sun gain the trust of our CTO's? In today's "You better get it all done with this much money and have 99 percent uptime or it's YOUR ass" CTO job descriptions, CTOs get much more sleep at night on non SUN solutions. We once had sun replace a systemboard on a very expensive SUN server 21 times before this server was usable again. I think this marked a turning point with us (IBM's largest customer) and we were far more apprehensive towards this company from that series of moments on. I could go on but I am actually rooting for Sun.

Re:Trust is hard to earn back.

[swordgeek]

Holy crap, where do you live? This is EXACTLY the opposite of my experiences with Sun over the last decade.

"CTOs get much more sleep at night on non SUN solutions."

Wow. I can't dispute your experience, but it certainly clashes with mine. Sun solutions have been the reason most of my colleagues sleep peacefully at night.

Re:Trust is hard to earn back.

[WebbedWell]

I don't doubt that you speak from experience, but you have to admit, when a systemboard on a huge SUN server needs replaced this many times, there seems to be a little problem which might extend beyond the scope of hardware engineering. We still employ SUN Solutions, but I do think this was a major turning point with my company. Where possible we went with more Linux and IBM solutions as a result. Before IBM sold off it's PC unit, we were at one time IBM's Largest customer. The are people at my company that had 4 months of absolute hell because of some of these problems with SUN hardware. Hell! For months where they had no time with their family, and SUN didn't do much to help the problem besides sending a new board every few days that didn't work. Like I said, I am rooting for Sun, I have always like their products for the most part, but if anyone else had experiences like this, it would explain in part the problems they have had selling huge amounts of servers lately.

SUN

[Heembo]

The google-sun partnership is a lot more than hype. Google buying up a lot of new SUN servers? Most anything that google touches or partners with turns to gold, this is the start of something huge. You think the dot.com revolution started a big rise of hardware purchases? What happens when Google blankets the earth in free wireless and uses SUN servers to make it happen? Great article with a positive slant on this partnership that few others noted. It's from CNN Money - where slashdotters do not roam? http://money.cnn.com/2005/10/14/technology/techinv estor/tech_biz/

Freudian slip?

[jhantin]

Sun always had been a company with a scoial conscience...

Come on, they've got their faults but they're not THAT bad.

Why is Geronimo a problem for Sun?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someone help me with the Geronimo reference in the head post? I can interpret it two ways: either Sun is having some problem with selling their systems with Geronimo, or that somehow the existence of Geronimo is bad for Sun, despite being a Java solution that would run on Sun kit as easily as anyone's. Neither interpretation seems to make sense.

Power 5

[jolyon]

I work for a well known FTSE100 company in the UK.. Sun have been dropped as a supplier by my employer in favour of IBM. Pain in the ass for me as I much prefer Solaris to AIX, but IBM had compelling price/performance figures that Sun couldn't match, and the micro partitioning that AIX 5.3 and Power 5 offers is attractive for a company fast running out of data centre space.

Spark off to new future

[cciRRus]

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