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Hidden Codes in Printers Cracked

r84x writes "A research team led by the Electronic Frontier Foundation (EFF) recently broke the code behind tiny tracking dots that some color laser printers secretly hide in every document. The U.S. Secret Service admitted that the tracking information is part of a deal struck with selected color laser printer manufacturers, ostensibly to identify counterfeiters. However, the nature of the private information encoded in each document was not previously known. "We've found that the dots from at least one line of printers encode the date and time your document was printed, as well as the serial number of the printer," said EFF Staff Technologist Seth David Schoen."

129 of 562 comments (clear)

  1. Maybe its not a weakness by suso · · Score: 5, Funny

    Its a good thing that I can't print. [warning: experimental music made from printer noises]

    1. Re:Maybe its not a weakness by suso · · Score: 4, Funny

      There is a fine line between Offtopic and Funny.

    2. Re:Maybe its not a weakness by suso · · Score: 3, Funny

      What the? Now damnit, why was that marked as funny. Mark my grandparent post as funny.

    3. Re:Maybe its not a weakness by mwood · · Score: 3, Funny

      Interesting, yes, but too old to be funny. Many moons ago somebody made a program that could play tunes by fiddling with the timing of the hammers on an IBM 1403 line printer. It's good to see someone keeping the traditions alive. :-)

  2. Printer Friendly Version? by OctoberSky · · Score: 5, Funny

    Anyone have a printer friendly version? On second thought.... nevermind. //Tin foil hat on

    1. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Forget the tinfoil hats! Everything I print from now on will be on foil-backed paper!

      =Smidge=

    2. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 3, Funny

      Print everything with pretty yellow floral background and all will be fine :D

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
    3. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by SB5 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Hell, it's not like anyone actually cares what you print unless you're doing something illegal that would warrent them spending a lot of time and money to try and find you.


      That is true in an uncorrupted system. The question remains what would happen if someone did use their power like J. Edgar Hoover did, and others in history that have got away with abuse of power in such a manner.

      And there is the case of just because something is illegal, that doesn't mean that something is a wrong thing to do.
      --
      If what you are reading sounds funny, or sarcastic, lame, or stupid
      it is because it is supposed to be. just laugh
    4. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by nolife · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Hell, it's not like anyone actually cares what you print unless you're doing something illegal that would warrent them spending a lot of time and money to try and find you.
      The people that do not want their houses randomly searched must be hiding something, after all, why would they not want searched? I know, point taken to the extreme but where do you draw the line?

      --
      Bad boys rape our young girls but Violet gives willingly.
    5. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by IngramJames · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This stuff is almost exactly how they caught the BTK killer

      I think it's great that finally, we will be able to frame people we don't like with the greatest of ease. Just user their printer to print something illegal, or burn a CD on their PC!

      A new crime, anyone? "Breaking And Entering With Intent To Print"

      --
      'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
    6. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Pig+Hogger · · Score: 4, Interesting
      Hell, it's not like anyone actually cares what you print unless you're doing something illegal that would warrent them spending a lot of time and money to try and find you.
      Don't ever think it won't happen to you for no reason. If you do, one day, I'll guarantee you'll be for a very rude awakening.

      Just wait until you get your ass hauled-in by an overzealous cop while you were doing something perfectly innocent or legal (like photographing old buses at a busy intersection - I know, it happenned to me. Two hours of vacation down the drain because some shit-brained bitch thought I was a terrorist - no, don't ask what happenned in her sorry neurons to think that).

      Cops think they are above normal civilians and do not hesitate to abuse their powers. For them, making a lowly civilian life hell is just what swatting a fly for you.

      The easier it is to abuse their power (like finding out where one photocopy was made), the more likely they will do it.

      Now that the EFF has published the "secret" code, everyone can do it, including that jealous spouse, screwey boss or suspicious business associate.).

      Cops think they are above normal civilians and do not hesitate to abuse their powers. For them, making a lowly civilian life hell is just what swatting a fly for you.

      The easier it is to abuse their power (like finding out where one photocopy was made), the more likely they will do it.

      Now that the EFF has published the "secret" code, everyone can do it, including that jealous spouse, screwey boss or suspicious business associate.

    7. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you realize what cops do every day? They deal with people who are abusing their kids; or acting indignent because they got pulled over for speeding; or drunk and screaming obscenities in public places; or involved in horrible accidents and shootings. When they're not doing these things, they sit around WAITING FOR THESE THINGS TO HAPPEN. It's too bad that you had a run in with a cop. Lord knows, I have too. They're human. They aren't criminal lawyers and they don't necessarily know that it is or isn't illegal for you to photograph buses at an intersection. All they know is that it's suspicious looking and they're told to be on the lookout for suspicious looking people. Fortunately, there's a nice legal system in place to keep things from getting out of control and you winding up in jail for taking pictures. And yes, sometimes that system fails, too, because it was set up and is run by humans or messed with by politicians. But don't go telling me that cops are all out to abuse their power. They're just normal people doing an unpleasant job who want to go home at the end of the day and drink a beer. WRT the printer thing: I think it's highly unlikely that your boss or spouse is going to go analyze some dots on a printout and cross reference them with the manufacturer's serial number. It's even more unlikely that the government is going to use this against you, unless you do something to draw the attention of say, the FBI. If that's the case, you've got much bigger things to worry about than having a piece of paper traced back to you.

    8. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by IngramJames · · Score: 2, Informative

      Retraction: I just remembered how, in days gone by, letters and notes were traced to a specific type writer due to the typewriter's "fingerprint" - each machine could be uniquely identified.

      So it could be argued that this is simply taking us back to the good old days of Miss Marple and Columbo :)

      --
      'No rational religion claims "supernatural" exists, that's an atheist slander.' - seen on slashdot.
    9. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Alsee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I think it's great that finally, we will be able to frame people we don't like with the greatest of ease. Just user their printer to print something illegal, or burn a CD on their PC!

      You don't even need to use some's printer to frame them. All you need is to scan anything that they have printed and copy the hidden code on the page and then use image software to overlay that code onto your own page image and print it using a printer that doesn't embed its own code (or hack your printer to change it's serial nomber to match the target's serial number).

      You can do the same with a CD, but you'll probably need to patch your CD drive's software to embed the target's CD drive number.

      -

      --
      - - You can't take something off the Internet! That's like trying to take pee out of a swimming pool.
    10. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by meadowsp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You really think that photographing buses counts as suspicious behaviour?

    11. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 3, Insightful

      >point taken to the extreme but where do you draw the line

      I don't know but after thinking about it for half a second a good place to start might be that this printer system causes no inconvenience to the user (AFAIK) whereas a house search would.

    12. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by LearnToSpell · · Score: 5, Funny

      Not if they search your house when you're not home! No inconvenience for anyone! In fact, you might not even know they've been there. Everybody wins.

    13. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Basehart · · Score: 3, Funny

      "All you need is to scan anything that they have printed and copy the hidden code on the page and then use image software to overlay that code onto your own page image and print it using a printer that doesn't embed its own code"

      Create multiple layers in photoshop, each with its own secret code. Be sure to title each layer with a name so you don't send Nancy down when it was Joe who looked at you funny that morning last week.

    14. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by CyricZ · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, it could cause a lot of inconvenience. Suppose a dirty printer head leads to the code being misprinted. A printed document, with the incorrect information, is involved in a murder or child rape investigation. Suddenly you become a suspect, even though you had no involvement, and the problem was with the printer. You could potentially be stuck defending yourself against baseless charges. That can take a massive financial toll, not to mention ruin your reputation. Hardly without inconvenience, indeed.

      --
      Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
    15. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by pla · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They deal with people who are abusing their kids;

      ...Or take that job upon themselves with creative use of the ever-popular "resisting arrest" claim. Clumsy kids, always going around breaking their own ribs while locked alone in a jail cell.


      or acting indignent because they got pulled over for speeding;

      Or driving while black. Or a personal favorite, driving on the wrong side of the road - On a lineless back road barely wide enough for a single car (the sort where you literally stop and one car pulls totally off the road if you meet another car coming the opposite way).


      or drunk and screaming obscenities in public places;

      Or ordered to step outside a bar, given a sobriety test, and charged with public drunkenness.


      or involved in horrible accidents and shootings.

      You mean like when a cop panics over a 2YO kid with a cap gun, and ventilates him? Or when they zealously chase a gas station drive-off at 110mph leading to three deaths over $30 in fuel?


      It's even more unlikely that the government is going to use this against you, unless you do something to draw the attention of say, the FBI.

      You mean like anonymously distributing a (legal) pamphlet critical of the wrong politician, who wants revenge and has convenient connections?



      I appreciate what police do. They keep a bunch of unruly domesticated primates from killing one another.

      But don't glorify them - They chose that job because they get to act the most like unruly domesticated primates, and justify it as part of the job. Politicians chose their job because they like power (or money, or both). WE all need to do our part to keep the police, and the government in general, in check.

    16. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by tha_mink · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, it could cause a lot of inconvenience. Suppose a dirty printer head leads to the code being misprinted. A printed document, with the incorrect information, is involved in a murder or child rape investigation. Suddenly you become a suspect, even though you had no involvement, and the problem was with the printer. You could potentially be stuck defending yourself against baseless charges. That can take a massive financial toll, not to mention ruin your reputation. Hardly without inconvenience, indeed.

      Or even worse...you buy and register a printer, and six months later sell it to some registered sex offender. It's a cash deal with no records. Six months and one day later that printer is used for some kidnapping randsom note or some shit. Who would believe it wasn't you? Your mom?

      --
      You'll have that sometimes...
    17. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Moofie · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Right, because the authorities always take the suspect at their word. They never just want to throw any old person they can put together a threadbare case in jail for years.

      Never happen, right?

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    18. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Moofie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Even if you should be able to carry box cutters on to a flight, what reaction do you think other passengers will have?"

      I don't care. It's none of their business.

      "I certainly would be very suspicious of someone carrying one on to a flight. In fact, I would be sleeping with one eye open."

      You sleep however you want. Your sleep habits are none of my business.

      "remotely linked to something that people are paranoid about at the time"

      I shouldn't have to keep track of the things that you're paranoid about. You, on the other hand, have a handy list of things that I have a right to do. (That is, loosely speaking, almost anything that doesn't cause direct harm to my fellow humans.).

      "but how far are you willing to go to ignore behaviour like that?"

      Very far. I am not afraid of terrorists. I am very concerned about police states. Historically, police states are much more dangerous than wackos with box cutters/sticks of dynamite/RPG's.

      "How do you filter those people out at check in?"

      You can't. You also can't be sure you won't get run over by a crazyperson on your way to work. Your odds of being killed by a terrorist are vanishingly small wrt the odds of you being killed by a distracted motorist.

      You don't have an inalienable right to safety.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    19. Re:Printer Friendly Version? by Lehk228 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      not cops, prosecutors. Around here (capital region, upstate NY) a guy went to jail for child molestation charges with REALLY weak evidence, basically just a recording of the girl talking in her sleep made by her father, the girl testified that the guy never did anything to her but the prosecutor wanted to make a name for herself and promised the father she would "get" the guy.

      --
      Snowden and Manning are heroes.
  3. Before... by trevordactyl · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Before anyone has a conniption, consider this: do you really think that "they" have a database they could reference to find out what printer serial number goes to what citizen? I don't. I know they could, but I choose to believe (most likely for good reason) that they don't.

    Just realize that 99.9% of the world doesn't give a shit about anything you do, and all that paranoia just slips away. That's what I did.

    1. Re:Before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      do you really think that "they" have a database they could reference to find out what printer serial number goes to what citizen?

      Most laser printers are rather expensive items. If you paid with a credit card, then yes, they have it in a database. (All stores record the serial number of high-ticket items they sell. I've actually gotten recall notices this way, so I know the store shares it with the manufactorer.) Even if you paid in cash, if you filled in the warranty card, they have it. Got a mail-in rebate? On file. Ever had to have it serviced? You're on file.

    2. Re:Before... by Alchemar · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What do you think all the registration cards that are "required" for warrenty are about. It is utterly amazing how much junk they store on individuals in the name of marketing. I will agree that no one will care about most people, but not caring and not having the information in a database are two different things. I have a very unique name derived from a misspelling on a birth certificate. The only two people in the world with my name is me and my father, but I still pull up over 500 hits if I enter it in google. Most of them some kind of goverment or school entery. No one cares about me or my father now, but the information is still there if that ever changes.

    3. Re:Before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      do you really think that "they" have a database they could reference to find out what printer serial number goes to what citizen?

      Yes, they must, otherwise this tracking information is useless, right? They can't be that dumb. And most high-end color printers are sold to businesses and often have service contracts. It's not that hard. How many people buy a printer for cash?

      And many networked printers "phone home" to the manufacturer via email or web. My Xerox phaser 7750 (great printer, btw) tries to send an email every month to Xerox. They're blocked now.

      Just realize that 99.9% of the world doesn't give a shit about anything you do, and all that paranoia just slips away.

      I know that. But I prefer that my printer doesn't track what I print.

    4. Re:Before... by sisina · · Score: 4, Funny

      Holy crap! 600,000 people are watching every move I make? Where's my Xanax??

    5. Re:Before... by Tx · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Don't swallow too much of that sand while your head's down there. They don't need a centralized database, the same manufacturers that agreed to implement this tracking scheme will happily tell them which vendor received the shipment containing a particular serial number, and the vendor will happily tell them who that individual printer was sold to, it's in their records from when they scanned the barcode prior to selling you the printer.

      --
      Oh no... it's the future.
    6. Re:Before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I don't know about the USA, but in the UK the only barcode that gets scanned is the 13-digit EAN product code which does not contain any kind of unique serial number.

      Buy a printer and fail to send the warranty card in and there is no entry in any list.

      The reason they have this stuff is so that they can match the printer to the document in the courtroom after they catch you. It's not a tracking system.

    7. Re:Before... by 91degrees · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Rememebr, if you want to be a counterfeitter, buy a printer in a different state (or better - a different country) with a stolen credit card. Cash might be too suspicious.

      Alternatively, steal the printer.

      One of the benefits of counterfeitting is that almost any incidental crime you commit is going to have a considerably smaller effect penalty than counterfeitting.

    8. Re:Before... by aug24 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Yeah, I reckon they do. I work implementing such systems. Read on...

      Modern asset tracking systems use the serial number of each big-ticket item to track it (if it is serialised - most expensive kit is). The asset, whatever it is, is tracked from entry to the system through to exit - with an EPOS transaction being recorded against it as it leaves if sold.

      It is pretty damn easy for a database coder to write a bit of SQL to say 'give me the credit card number that bought this item'. I could do it in minutes.

      Provided the Feds wanted to track a given machine, and it had been bought with plastic, there's no reason they shouldn't be able to find that info very easily, given the cooperation of the vendors. Your last para relies on you not being someone the Feds are interested in - and that relies on you assuming they won't be interested in people who haven't broken the law. I hope you are right, but recent events suggest otherwise to me...

      Justin.

      --
      You're only jealous cos the little penguins are talking to me.
    9. Re:Before... by Grail · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My concern isn't about the 99.9% of the world who don't care. My concern is that the 0.1% of the world does care - and they're the ones who control the people with the guns and prison cells.

      Not everyone is out to get me, but when I express an unpopular opinion I don't want to risk being labelled a Terrorist (with a capital 'T') and thrown in gaol for an indefinite period with no rights, no contact and no food.

    10. Re:Before... by rbochan · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep, and Americans in the 1930's and 1940's didn't think the cute guy/girl they dated for a couple of months in college were any big deal. They didn't think writing a book report for a class was any big deal.

      Then along came Senator Joseph McCarthy...

      --
      ...Rob
      The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
    11. Re:Before... by Itchy+Rich · · Score: 3, Insightful

      If you paid with a credit card, then yes, they have it in a database.

      The retailer or manufacturer may have it in a database, but whatever shadowy organisations the parent was alluding to probably doesn't. Government agencies have enough trouble keeping track of where people live without having to track their posessions too.

    12. Re:Before... by WeeLad · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Yes, they must, otherwise this tracking information is useless, right?

      I don't know that the lack of a database would make the information useless. It may work like running ballistics tests on a shell casing found at a crime scene and matching it to a weapon seized from a suspect.

      Even if there ability to find a suspect is limited, they may have the ability to prove, within a court of law, that a document came from the printer in your basement.

      --
      Seriously, Don't take anything I say seriously.
    13. Re:Before... by panthro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Shadowy Organization probably doesn't have all that information on file directly, but clearly the idea behind setting up this "deal" with the printer manufacturers is that they can obtain the information from them when they need it (say, when they find a fake twenty with the dot pattern embedded).

      Who's to say what it takes for them to obtain this information and how they use it? I'm personally not satisfied to just think "they'll only obtain it when they need it, and they will only use it for a Good Cause". It's not paranoia, it's like Murphy's law: if it can be abused, it probably will be.

      --
      If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
    14. Re:Before... by Risen888 · · Score: 2, Informative

      A big database, you say? Nah. I'm sure it's a myth.

      Maybe 99% of the world doesn't give a shit about anything you do. You're obviously not important.

      --
      Hey, I finally got my first freak! Took you long enough!
    15. Re:Before... by Hans+Lehmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The CIA/FBI doesn't need to keep the information in a database, they have the manufacturers & retailers to do that for them. If they find a printed paper that's of "interest", they contact the manufacturer of the printer. The manufacturer knows which retailer the printer was sold to. The retailer, not wanting to question on their patriotism, rolls over & hands them your credit card information. Presto, you've vanished to behind barbed wire on some Carribean island.

      --
      09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    16. Re:Before... by Silverstrike · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I personally worry much more about the oppressive capability of large corporations than my own government.

      Since we live in an elective democracy, its usually in the best interest of your politicians to at least make their shady doings HIDDEN (read: not directly effecting you). Spooks showing up to toss you into a van and throwing you into a hole, really isn't something that benefits anyone in the federal or state government no matter what you did, as those responsible would be quickly out of a job and possibly jailed.

      However, while a free market is supposed to be economic democracy, I think that the actions taken by large commercial entities (MS, RIAA, MPAA, etc) are indicative that they really don't care what we think, or they rely very heavily on the vast majority of people not caring/noticing.

      Although, since this is Slashdot, someone would have to notice that the spooks took you, so make sure you crawl out of the basement once a day or so and someone know your still down there ;-)

    17. Re:Before... by xappax · · Score: 4, Interesting

      God bless the PATRIOT Act, which among many other things, grants law enforcement agencies broad privileges to private corporate information in the name of investigating "terrorism". Fact is, neither the FBI nor Xerox would have to (or in Xerox's case, be allowed to) tell you that they had shared their serial number database with the government.

      I hear the argument over and over again that "just because they're allowed to, the government doesn't have time to spy on little old you, so quit being paranoid". This is true, and the government realizes it, which is why they are striving for "Total Information Awareness". The idea is that all the information the feds could ever desire is already collected in outrageous detail by private organizations like the phone company, ISPs, bookstores, etc. - so why not just pass laws granting the Feds unrestricted, secret access to this info? That way, the government doesn't have to have been spying on you your whole life. The moment you get caught up in some "suspicious" incident like looking around too much on the subway or criticizing the American government while in an American airport, your whole history is at the government's fingertips (including, now, what documents you printed!), and believe me, they'll find reasons for suspicion.

      God bless the PATRIOT Act, my friend.

    18. Re:Before... by DjReagan · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "Just realize that 99.9% of the world doesn't give a shit about anything you do, and all that paranoia just slips away"

      Oh, so there's only 0.1% of the world who is interested in what I'm doing?

      I'm glad it works out for you, but 6 million people snooping around in my private life doesn't make my paranoia go away.

      --
      "When I grow up, I want to be a weirdo"
    19. Re:Before... by MooseTick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've placed service calls on printer purchased directly from the manufacturer(HP) that were still on warrenty and they didn't even show that we owned it, that it was still on warrenty, or where it was located. These were $4000 printers that were purchased 100 at a time. If they can't keep track of that I'm not sure how reliable you can track someone down who bought a Color LaserJet at Best Buy 3 years ago with a credit card.

      If you registered it that may be a different story. Still, those same printers were supposedly registered and I continually have to provide contract numbers to have any work done. While that may be on file somewhere, it is unlikely that HP or the govt could locate that info.

    20. Re:Before... by Armour+Hotdog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of those $5000+ printers are bought by relatively large companies. I don't think companies have to keep a full log of what everybody prints.

      Maybe not, but identifying the purchaser of the printer significantly narrows the search for the person who used that printer to generate the document in question. If it's owned by a business, they may be able to identify the specific user through print server logs (obtained via subpeona or simply "in connection with an ongoing investigation related to terrorist activity"). Even if no such logs are available, they certainly can identify those individuals with ready access to the printer in question and focus their investigative efforts accordingly.


      *obviously*, if *you* bought the printer, then everything that this printer has ever printed was made by *you*

      If the printer is owned by an individual, I'd imagine said individual would find himself confronted with the choice of naming names or becoming the prime suspect himself. In either case, the authorities have narrowed their search to a small group of people.

    21. Re:Before... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Shadowy Organization probably doesn't have all that information on file directly, but clearly the idea behind setting up this "deal" with the printer manufacturers is that they can obtain the information from them when they need it (say, when they find a fake twenty with the dot pattern embedded).

      They probably could do so, eventually, if they needed to. But it's also a surefire to track all of the counterfeit bills back to a single machine, and therefore a single counterfeiter. If you have a run of phoney bills showing up all over the state within a couple months of each other, how do you know if it is a single counterfeiter or several different counterfeiters working separately (or together)? Just connect the dots.

      What if you have a batch of counterfeit bills show up? How can you tell whether they're from a "new" counterfeiter operating in the area or just leftovers from someone who may have already been arrested (or is under investigation)? Just check the "signature" from the printer.

      Granted, it will probably be abused at some point, but even without a database tying the printer to an individual it would still be extremely useful.

    22. Re:Before... by Metrathon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How many people buy a printer for cash?

      If I was going to do some counterfeiting I think I'd use cash if I was actually going to *buy* the printer. Then, maybe I wouldn't go to the CompUSA where they know me...

    23. Re:Before... by WaterBreath · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Any part of security or law enforcement can be abused. IMHO that is not, in itself, enough to justify ruling it out. Among other things, we must weigh the degree of damage that can be done by the abuse, and the ease by which it could be abused.

      It really is a question of where you draw the line. The problem is, no one can ever agree where the line should be drawn. Maybe we crossed it already. If so, how long ago? A year? A decade? Two decades? Half a century? It depends on who you ask.

      Some would say the line was crossed (in the U.S. anyway) when the CIA was formed, or the FBI, or even when Constitution was written. It depends on whether the speaker is an anarchist, or an authoritarian, or somewhere in between. With such a wide distribution of philosophies, how can we come to a satisfying agreement? This is a perpetual battle, because someone will always feel the status quo is either unjust or insufficient.

      Maybe I'm just stating the obvious, though.

    24. Re:Before... by plj · · Score: 2, Insightful
      And what if the information used in tracking falls to the hands of a totalitarian government? Let's see what could happen in say, China:

      Used to be like this:

      <print>

            Free Tibet!
            Democracy now!
            Taiwan indepencence!

      </print>

      Official 1: Who printed this?! Track him down now!
      Official 2: Sir, it's just an ordinary printout. There is nothing we can do.
      Official 1: Damn!

      But now, welcome to the brave new world:

      <print GUID="......">

            Free Tibet!
            Democracy now!
            Taiwan indepencence!

      </print>

      Official 1: Who printed this?! Track him down now!
      Official 2: Let's see. This has been printed with HP Color Laserjet 3700n, S/N xxxxxxxxxx. We got information that it was bought by cash from shop XYZ.
      Official 1: Fine. Raid every building on that area and search for such printers. When you'll find those, check their serial numbers. Do not stop you find the right one!
      Official 2: Yes, Sir!
      --
      “Wait for Hurd if you want something real” –Linus
  4. more links by morcheeba · · Score: 5, Informative

    For those interested in a quick summary, the docucolor example is the best place to look. (it has pictures!)

    More information can be found on the EFF's printer-privacy webpage.

    Also interesting is Andrew Bunnie's flat bed page scanner mod to use blue light instead of white. This made the yellow tracking dots easier to see, and the whole page could be seen at once to determine the pattern they made.

    1. Re:more links by meringuoid · · Score: 4, Funny
      Also interesting is Andrew Bunnie's flat bed page scanner mod to use blue light instead of white. This made the yellow tracking dots easier to see, and the whole page could be seen at once to determine the pattern they made.

      Right. So now, in order to ensure that we remain safe from terrorists, paedophiles, and liberals, we need to compel scanner manufacturers to make sure their products will refuse to show the secret codes we already compelled the printer manufacturers to install.

      Don't worry, citizen. We have it all under control.

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    2. Re:more links by LiquidCoooled · · Score: 2, Informative

      Illuminating the yellow pigment with a blue light produces a much darker series of dots (yellow ink absorbes blue light but reflects red and green).

      --
      liqbase :: faster than paper
  5. Ink Jet? by CaptainTux · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I wonder if ink jet manufacturers are doing this or will do this soon? Anyone in the know?

    --
    Anthony Papillion
    Advanced Data Concepts, Inc.
    "Quality Custom Software and IT Services"
  6. Message decoded by GroeFaZ · · Score: 4, Funny

    "If you can read this, you are about to be busted"

    --
    The grass is always greener on the other side of the light cone.
  7. Date and time? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I bet most people's printers will print "Jan-01 1980 12:00" in little blinking dots.

  8. Conspiracy math by zappepcs · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I love conspiracy math: Lets see, conservative estimate of 400 million printers in North America alone, and no method of tracking serial number to location or owner past the original purchase, assuming cash was not used. So, hmmmm a data base with 400 million records, tied to dubious information... yeah, that's useful, but on second thought, it would allow police to figure out if the printer that counterfit documents were created with was in North America or Europe... that would be helpful, but not really worth putting on the tin foil hats.

    Anyway, so the government requires each printer manufacturer to maintain a database of all printers sold, so that if needed, they can subpeona the records? No wonder printer ink costs so much :)

    I'm thinking that this would only go so far, and not be much more useful than a database of gun rifling marks?

    1. Re:Conspiracy math by c_g_hills · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's doubtful it could be used for tracking a printer's life history. More likely is that it would be used in court to prove the origin of a particular document.

    2. Re:Conspiracy math by photon317 · · Score: 4, Informative


      Even if all the database can tell them reliably is that HP ColorLaserJet Model 55 Serial Number 89928798734 was distributed to a certain Best Buy store, that goes a long way. When the Secret Service finds counterfeit bills, they know from the serial what store it was originally purchased in. Chances are it didn't move far, and chances are that Best Buy's records can lead to a very short list of potential buyers. Even if it was resold by one of them, the investigation becomes fairly trivial at that point.

      But perhaps more importantly, even if you can't use it (embedded serial numbers in documents) as a primary method of tracking down the counterfeiter, you can certainly use it as court evidence once you do catch them by other means. It's pretty damning evidence if they can show that they seized a printer with serial number 89928798734 at your home address, and they can also show conterfiet currency or documents with the same serial number embedded that showed up elsewhere.

      --
      11*43+456^2
    3. Re:Conspiracy math by CmdrGravy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree that is probably what it is intended to be used for but I wonder how they would prove the mark is unique to that printer and couldn't have been generated by any one of hundreds other printers ?

    4. Re:Conspiracy math by bogado · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is a real concern, matching a forged dolar with the printer is quite ok in my opinion. But matching a person who is printing those anti-goverment posters is a little more concerning. Maybe people could use some public printer to print out their gruntles against the goverment.

      Anyway, I think that the customer should at least be warned about it in the manual. And the data should be easily decoded, by anyone, not just the FBI and the printer manufactorer. I think it is quite usefull to be able to know when did you made that copy of your work.

      --
      []'s Victor Bogado da Silva Lins

      ^[:wq

  9. Old Communist ploy gets updated by doublem · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In Soviet Russia, anyone who owned a typewriter was required to send a sample page to the government.

    The theory of course being that they would use it to try and track down any subversive content.

    And now the US government has made it quick, easy and automated to do the same.

    I want to know who the bastards are that are adding this technology to their printers so I can avoid them like the plague.

    Yes, I know I could just not send in the registration card, but what if the government decided to crack down on those who critisize the war? Suddenly when they confiscate my printer, they can find out if any of the documents they've declared subversive came from my printer.

    This is too Big Brother for my tastes.

    --
    "Live Free or Die." Don't like it? Then keep out of the USA
    1. Re:Old Communist ploy gets updated by $RANDOMLUSER · · Score: 3, Funny

      I didn't say you were paranoid, you must have imagined that.

      --
      No folly is more costly than the folly of intolerant idealism. - Winston Churchill
    2. Re:Old Communist ploy gets updated by moz25 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I want to know who the bastards are that are adding this technology to their printers so I can avoid them like the plague.

      That's in the article:

      http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/list.php

    3. Re:Old Communist ploy gets updated by mattkime · · Score: 2, Funny

      And now the US government has made it quick, easy and automated to do the same.

      *sigh*

      but the US is good and the commies are bad!

      God Bless America!

      --
      Know what I like about atheists? I've yet to meet one that believes God is on their side.
  10. So they "cracked" it... by packman · · Score: 3, Interesting

    now what? Would there be any way to fake it? Until that's not possible - I have mixed feelings about this - we could be worse off with these findings. As long as this system is out-there we can check who printed smth ourselfs if we really want to... Isn't that a more serious privacy issue? Ok - shouldn't have been there in the first place but as long as there's no way to stop this...

    1. Re:So they "cracked" it... by Pusene · · Score: 3, Funny

      This would be fun:

      1. Mail local politician and ask for something, get nice letter in reply.
      2. Decode info hidden in letter.
      3. Create Communist, Satanist and other anti-government propaganda with fake, hidden info.
      4.???
      5. Profit!

      --
      Error #13: No coffee. Operator halted. Please place boot device at bottom.
  11. Blue light scanner mod ? by Animaether · · Score: 4, Funny

    You'd think it would be easier to...

    A1. scan as normal
    A2. separate the channels into CMYK in Photoshop/whathaveyou
    A3. inspect the Yellow channel.

    B1. scan as normal
    B2. separate the channels into RGB in GIMP/whathaveyou
    B3. do a difference matte between the channels
    B4. inspect the result

    C1. replace the yellow toner cartridge with a black one
    C2a. stock the other holders with empty cartridges
    C2b. or if that causes a printer error/warning, block the cartridges' output
    C3. print

    D1. get a sheet of blue filter plastic
    D2. scan through that

    But I guess the array of blue LEDs with soldering involved is a lot more geeky :)

    1. Re:Blue light scanner mod ? by morcheeba · · Score: 2, Interesting

      all good ideas, but some flaws.

      For A and B, the contrast/resolution may not be enough to detect the smallest droplets of yellow ink.

      I also thought of C, but that's an expensive process - I'm sure that you would get many messed-up pages afterwards while the new toner feeds through. Or, maybe not - depends on how the toner is fed in. This would be hard to do when you're testing Kinko's printer, though.

      D is a good idea, but the idea is to also make it monochromatic light - the blue plastic might let in too many different colored lights, even though it looks the same to the eye.

    2. Re:Blue light scanner mod ? by pla · · Score: 2, Informative

      For A and B, the contrast/resolution may not be enough to detect the smallest droplets of yellow ink.

      With a 600DPI scanner, those work just fine.

      Personally, I used the following steps, and ended up with glaringly obvious black dots (~10-30 pixels) on a white background:

      1) Print a supplies status page (or anything with a lot of empty space)
      2) Scan at 1200DPI (but 600 works, just takes more care in doing the next few steps)
      3) Drop the red and green channels to nothing (you can probably stop here, but as a perfectionist...)
      4) Shift the hue 50% toward red (or green, doesn't matter)
      5) Convert to greyscale (or saturation to zero)
      6) Brighten the image by 80% and boost the contrast 20%
      7) Repeat step 6 until satisfied (took me about 5 passes to get basically a black-and-white image)

      And there you have it. If you can't see the dots now, you don't have them.


      Interestingly enough, the printer I used doesn't appear to conform to the same layout described on the EFF's page.

  12. Who cares... by Feint · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Great. Now I know what data is in the dots. It includes as expected serial numbers and dates, but not what I had for breakfast, nor the color of my underwear!

    What would be interesting is info on how to keep the printers from putting the dots in at all. If it's not possible, then don't buy one of those printers if you care about it that much. There is a list of manufacturers that put *some* info in your printed docs, so why not just avoid those? Do you really care if the date/time is on it? Even the serial number is useless in reality. If I steal the printer from someone's home in Boston, and transport it Houston, where I print my subversive literature for global distribution, the only thing the SS can tell from the dots is "Yep.. It was printed on printer 3437938 at 10am on a friday three months ago"

    Now if it had GPS coordinates included, that would be a little more scary..

    1. Re:Who cares... by Comboman · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Now if it had GPS coordinates included, that would be a little more scary..

      Easy enough to update the printer driver to include your computer's NIC and most recent IP address along with the date and serial number. Not quite as good as GPS but probably enough to track you down (it's enough for the RIAA to track down file sharers).

      --
      Support Right To Repair Legislation.
    2. Re:Who cares... by timeOday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      don't buy one of those printers if you care about it that much.
      Duh, that's why this whole printer fingerprinting scheme was impelemented in secrecy. It has been going on for years and only just now do we know about it.

      To me that's perhaps the biggest issue. At one point this was supposed to be a democracy, now it seems we're sliding into acceptance of secret laws and practices, and a general acceptance that "they" are watching (without even knowing who "they" are). We used to deride "conspiracy theorists" for thinking this kind of stuff was happening. Now we know it is happening, so we just deride the conspiracy theorists for caring.

    3. Re:Who cares... by k2r · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I do.

      Where I come from (Germany) people have been executed because their anonymous printings could be traced back to them.

      Eg: Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_rose

      Now imagine how easy this would have been if they used one of these laser-printers for the leaflets and for their homework.

      If you give away your personal freedom to this regime a future fascist regime isn't likely to give it back to you.

      k2r

  13. pacman to the rescue by Junior+J.+Junior+III · · Score: 4, Funny

    Just send in the little round yellow guy to eat some of the dots and confuse the feds. No more paranoia!

    --
    You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
  14. Codes by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    hehe seen the paranoia already. I feel that your looking at this all wrong.
    instead of using a large database to hold every printers details. the authorities will use this information after they have caught a criminal to aid in the conviction. with the evedience of the printer and some sample counterfit examples. it would be very easy to tie that person to the crime.

    the other example I can think is to find out how many counterfitters there could be. if they get 10 examples and the codes all match. then they know they are dealing with the same person. if there are codes from 2 or 3 differnt printers. then it could be a ring of people.

    I think this is a exelent aid for the autotities and feel that the only people that have things to worry about are the people doing wrong out there.

    just my 2 pence worth. Fuas.

  15. How much is in the driver? by Albanach · · Score: 4, Interesting
    How much of this is encoded in the printer driver? In other words, are OSS drivers partially immune?

    I can only imagine the time and date are passed from the host PC - most printers don't know what time/date it is - at least on those I jsut glanced at I can't set it myself. Of course the network attached ones could have an NTP client but that'd be easily blocked at the firewall.

    At least if you can make every printout say it happened three decades ago you don't need to worry about proving you were not in the office at the time the printout was made.

    1. Re:How much is in the driver? by molo · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is for color lasers. The EFF tests to generate sample pages were done with postscript that gets fed directly to the printers. You might be able to hack the firmware, the encoded data gets added by either the postscript rasterizer or the actual bitmapped layout engine.

      My bet is on the rasterizer.

      -molo

      --
      Using your sig line to advertise for friends is lame.
    2. Re:How much is in the driver? by ebuck · · Score: 3, Informative

      Past disccussions have indicated that this information is programmed into the printer control circuits themselves, no software is required or even aware of the "extra" dots.

      If that is true, then no amount of dirver manipulation will help, with the possible exception of a driver that "adds" extra dots to make the message meaningless. In theory, you could add extra dots, but in practice it would be ineffective unless you could gurantee perfect alignment (or the extra dots would be easy to filter out). Since some dots would come from software, and others come from hardware control programs, it's not a simple task to gurantee alignment.

    3. Re:How much is in the driver? by morcheeba · · Score: 4, Informative

      I forgot to link to Bunnie's printer disassembly [via]

      The basic conclusion is that many of the watermarked printers share a Canon print engine -- he suspects it is this engine that is doing the watermarking. The US Government just had to convince the critical-equipment supplier to add the tracking - not all the printer companies. He also notes that the Tek Phaser printers don't have this because they were developed before the Canon engine. (Oh, how I longed for a phaser back in the day!)

  16. Disgusting. by caluml · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's pretty disgustingly low behaviour. Makes you wonder what other identifying information might be written into seemingly random data.
    Improve, or something else....? TCP timestamps too. Just use the LSB, and by making it a 1, or a 0, and you can transmit infomation hiddenly..

    1. Re:Disgusting. by base3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sure, there's nothing bad that can come of the modern version of the Soviet Union's typewriter registration scheme. I'll loosen my tinfoil hat and set aside my indignant outrage the second ordinary people like you quit being apologists for would-be fascists.

      --
      One CPU cycle wasted on digital restrictions management is ONE TOO MANY.
  17. Investigate printer ink price-gouging instead? by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Instead of sereptitiously putting in tracking codes in customer's documents, maybe the government should investigate the price gouging practice that ink cartridge manufacturers use to boost their profits?

    I want my money back for the ID dots that were printed without my knowledge or consent. A sum of $3000.00 will be sufficient to cover all past and future ink cartridge costs.

    From http://www.atlascopy.com/newsletters/Printer_Cartr idge_Price_Fixing.htm

    CNET.com analyzed the cost for inkjet printing and reported that the costs ranged from 14 cents to $1.32 per page. If it costs 21 cents per page and you print only an average of two pages per day, the annual cost of ink would be more than the cost of the printer.
    The ink cartridge for a low end HP printer, containing only one tiny ounce of ink, costs a mind boggling $30.00! That's price gouging, and all printer manufacturers are doing it. That's called PRICE FIXING and it's illegal. To add to the rip-off, some of them put all the colors into one cartridge. Then you have to buy a new cartridge when only one color runs out, wasting the remaining ink.

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
    1. Re:Investigate printer ink price-gouging instead? by spencerogden · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Repeat after me, "Cost does not equal value". No one is forcing you to buy inkjet cartridges. The value of something is what the market will bear. These companies are watching their revenue go up as they raise prices. that's their job, maximize revenue. If there is collusion among printer manufacturers, which I doubt, then it is illeagal. Otherwise, buy a laser.

  18. Printers have RTC and CMOS battery? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    They say the date and time is encoded besides the printer serial number. What I can't grasp, how should a color laser printer know the exact time? It is simply a peripheral and not necessarily network attached.

    1. Re:Printers have RTC and CMOS battery? by RubberDogBone · · Score: 5, Informative

      Speaking as a trained Xerox Docu* operator who can recite his DEEZEROCEE serials in his sleep.....

      The DocuColor printers in question are very high end printer/copiers that are installed and maintained by trained technicians known by Xerox as Customer Service Engineers or CSEs. When it breaks or needs parts, you call your CSE. Think "on-site support" but on steroids. You pay a ton for this.

      The system clock is set by the installer CSE and possibly updated as needed on subsequent service calls, and there are MANY of those as DocuColors require frequent maintenance and upkeep. It is not uncommon to have service once a week for some models. Or worse. They can be touchy beasts. The machines, I mean. The CSEs can be your pal or your worst nightmare. I like the ones my bosses hate. Go fig.

      So what is the clock for? Among other things, time stamps are used by the printshop for tracking when every single print was made including which operator made it. So no more late night "free copies" for your pals. Xerox also uses the logs for all sorts of legit reasons. Nothing evil there.

      So what about resetting the clock? First you'd have to get the machine open. This is not like a computer with handy access panels and common PCBs, er, that's PWBs in Xerox-speak. You'd have to know the machine inside-out, have the tools and the skill to take it apart (God help you), and hope that the battery is resettable rather that buried inside a chip. Xerox is very, very aware of people trying to cheat the machine meters to make free copies so stuff like counters and clocks are already armored and protected from prying hands.

      Assuming you managed to do all those things and got the machine back together, then it has to be recalibrated because taking it apart will have wrecked the system setup. So you have to call your CSE, who resets the clock straight away, probably by pushing the keys with the bones he removed from your hands for messing with his machine. If you're still alive at this point, you are right back where you started!

      Side notes: the vast majority of DocuColors are leased out by Xerox rather than sold, so the machine is normally Xerox property from assembly to reman to reman to reman to junkyard. Why? Some of them can cost half a million and up for new, less for used, but either way these are not something people "buy" when they can simply lease. GE Credit is happy to finance the leases and end users find it much cheaper and they don't end up stuck with obsolete machines.

      Many of the older machines can and do end up on the sale market and it is possible to buy one and own it, but it will still require service (lots for an old machine), toner, supplies, parts, and preventive maintenance. Xerox controls almost all the DocuColor parts, supplies, ink, and most of the trained CSEs so you pretty much have no choice but to sign on for a Xerox service contract even when you own the thing free and clear.

      Yes, there ARE trained key operators who can get in and do SOME maintenance chores but only Xerox can get parts and has the technical knowledge to use them.

      --
      Sig for hire.
  19. Welcome to life in 21st century United States by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    We had might as well get used to this kind of stuff, because I suspect it's just the tip of the iceberg. Hell, I suspect it's just the tip of the iceberg of what's ALREADY going on, much less what is to come.

    -Eric

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  20. Watermark with extra random patterns by G4from128k · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Once the code is cracked, anyone can add a pattern of yellow dots that say anything. Assuming someone can tweeze the overlapping codes, they would discover that the document was printed 10/10/05 by printer 2721272 or 5/8/05 by printer 8798798 or 11/2/05 by printer 9813982, etc. If one can get the alignment right, one could even fill-in the printer's native dot pattern so that all pages are printed on FF/FF/FF by printer FFFFFFF.

    --
    Two wrongs don't make a right, but three lefts do.
    1. Re:Watermark with extra random patterns by Mccavity91k · · Score: 5, Funny

      "What's this? This ransom note was printed in 1455 on printer number 1! Okay men, I think we need to have a little chat with Mr. Gutenberg"

  21. CSI: Slashdot by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    Given all the tin foil hat activity lately, I see this as CBS' next spinoff.

    I'm all for it. Especially if you get that MILF Marg Helgenberger. Woohooo!!!

  22. Localization by Biking+Viking · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Tracking to the home would be difficult but tracking to an area is more realistic. If there is a serial # embedded in to the code, the manufacturer can track that # to a particular store or warehouse. While this isn't enough to catch anyone alone, it could be used as supporting evidence in an ongoing case. Ofcourse, if a conterfeiter is stupid enough to actually register the printer (like the other 1% of the population) then they deserve to be cought in the first place.

  23. want anonymity by sucati · · Score: 2, Funny

    Here's my suggestion: get newspaper or magazine (with big letters preferrably), glue, scissors and some paper. Cut letters of liking, assemble and paste to paper. Oh and wear gloves.

  24. The hardware involved... by maetenloch · · Score: 3, Informative

    here a guy opened up his HP printer and looked at the chips involved. It appears that all the printers with hidden codes use the Canon print engine board. Changing the pattern might be as easy as reflashing an eeprom.

  25. Quit being clueless. by cnelzie · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Let's assume you purchase your color laser printer with cash.

        Let's assume you take that home and hook it up to your Windows XP Home Edition printer.

        Now, that printer is installed and it requests you "Register" the printer. You decline to do so.

        During the normal course of use, a little dialog box pops up stating that there is an update to download from your color laser printer manufacturer's website and the printer application will be more then happy to do so.

        How does your application know that it needs to be updated? Well, it checked with a central server.

        If that application checks with a central server, would it be difficult to imagine that the central server would be able to obtain the following?

        IP Address, Printer Serial number, timestamp of communication.

        With just the timestamp and the IP Address your PC used to communicate with the central server, you can be easily traced. It's easier if you are on broadband, slightly more difficult if you are on a service like AOL or MSN.

        I am not being a tinfoil hat wearer here. I am just pointing out that it is actually easier to track down a user of a particular printer then you believe it to be.

        The only way to be more anonymous with such a cash paid color laser printer purchase would be to never connect it to a PC that has Internet Access.

    --
    If you ignore the other uses of a tool, does that make the tool less useful, or you less useful?
    1. Re:Quit being clueless. by arkanes · · Score: 2, Insightful
      With just the timestamp and the IP Address your PC used to communicate with the central server, you can be easily traced. It's easier if you are on broadband, slightly more difficult if you are on a service like AOL or MSN.

      For what it's worth, AOL maintains extensive logs and readily cooperates with law enforcement. I suspect that MSN does as well. I briefly assisted in a fraud investigation (purchasing stuff via our website with stolen credit cards) and the perpetuator was dialing in from an AOL account. AOL was able to take the source IP address and a timestamp and provide his account and billing information, as well as the telephone number he called from.

  26. So remember by protoshoggoth · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you're printing out your ransom demands on a color laser printer, send a photocopy of the printout instead.

  27. Re:Er, huh? by sphealey · · Score: 3, Informative
    Do you know anything baout barcodes? Barcodes do not have serial numbers encoded on them. Every printer of the same brand and model has the same barcode. Any other system would increase the cost of printing boxes tenfold.
    Every one of the 5,000 or so pieces of computer equipment I have unpacked over the last 10 years has had the serial number barcoded on the outside of the shipping carton.

    And yes, stores can be required to scan those S/Ns if the feds so desire, and it can be made to stick. Bank tellers don't get paid all that much more than Best Buy clerks, but the threat of 20 years in the federal pen gives them a bit of incentive to follow the money-laundering reporting procedures. Heck, I heard a discussion between two entry-level postal clerks the other day about how much fun they had spotting drug dealers and reporting them.

    sPh

  28. Re:Before...what? by dwandy · · Score: 3, Informative
    well you better burn your "-1 lacks research" mod points on yourself then, 'cause if you wander down to your local electronics store you will discover that the model numbers AND serial numbers are on many many boxes and yes they are both in BARCODE format for easy computer access. btw, "barcode" refers to format, not content.
    Thanks largely to the invention of this nifty thing called a microprocessor adding the serial number on a sticker on each box costs tenths of pennies, not millions, and saves thousands if not millions in dealing with the distribution & maintenance channels.
    My Toshiba laptop box not only had the serial number on the box, but when it went in for service the Tohiba rep knew which retailer it was sold through...

    feel free to mod this down (-1 mod angry).

    --
    If you think imaginary property and real property are the same, when does your house become public domain?
  29. Re:Er, huh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    > Do you know anything baout barcodes?

    Yes actually I do (I have worked in the print industry). You don't from your comments. Barcodes do in fact have serial numbers on them. Normally the actual serial number is printed below the barcode in question.

    Printing custom serial numbers to boxes is very easy to do and does not have a huge major factor on the pricing of the box. Even if the printer company don't do the boxes in house they can have a conveyor type system that scans the serial on the printer and drops a label onto the box with the serial number. That serial number would have a batching number (so they can determine what load went where).

    >The best they could do is identify which store the item was shipped to.

    From there they can track where the printer was sold from there. Shops keep records of sales which can be cross referenced against Credit card, CCTV or interviewing people on the day.

    >If you honestly think that companies have the time and money to track
    > things to that ability, you are crazy. It would cost them *millions*,
    > and benefit them zero

    Actually any company that doesn't track is stock it probably costing themselves millions.

    Do you even work? o_O

  30. These are the printers found so far by bluelip · · Score: 2, Informative

    To answer your question, (And from the TFA) http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/list.php

    Yes, there are many on that list.

    --

    Yep, I never spell check.
    More incorrect spellings can be found he
  31. Re:Checkout scanners... by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 4, Informative

    If I buy a $50 DVD player at wallmart, the register prompts the clerk to scan the serial number barcode. Last year I had a few clerks look very confused. One said "I don't want to type that" and I pointed out that they could use their barcode scanner.

    If they track it, everyone does. Everything I mail order has the barcode scanned and printed on the packing slip.

    Get a clue.

  32. Re:Er, huh? by BJZQ8 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    If you honestly think that companies have the time and money to track things to that ability, you are crazy. It would cost them *millions*, and benefit them zero. They would be fighting tooth and nail against any request by the government to do that.

    The companies don't have the time or money, but the government definately does. Any company I've worked for, if asked by a semi-anonymous "federal" agency for information, rolls over like a scared puppy. The government has (like Spiegel) nothing but time to spy on its citizens. They are the paranoid ones that we need to be watching out for, they are the crazed mumbling guy on the streetcorner that everybody goes out of their way to avoid. Handing them technology like this is like handing the aforementioned freak an automatic weapon. Sooner or later he'll figure out how to use it to fight off the voices that keep pestering him. Sooner or later, the government will figure out how to use this technology to oppress its citizenry.

  33. Re:Checkout scanners... by sqlrob · · Score: 2, Informative

    When I bought my GBA SP, a measly $100 piece of equipment, they scanned the serial number along with the item barcode.

  34. Hidden Codes In Printers by dbamazing · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have worked for a couple years in a sister company of a copier distro and have actually had several discussions about this with the techs.. Yea, there is a hidden code embedded in the ones we sell. (of course we sell commercial color machines), and according to the guys who rip them apart on a daily basis, there is a way around it (i haven't verified this tho). For each one of the printers, there is a "US" driver and an "Other" driver. From what I understand, all you do is switch the driver to the non US version and the printers no longer identify. (I would love eff to test this theory, as I already run all mine w the "generic" drivers.

  35. Unexpected historical benefit by Ex+Machina · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Of course, this might actually prove useful in the future for historians analyzing our garbage for dating our documents. Assuming, of course, that these tiny dots can survive for a useful amount of time.

  36. Yellow toner by mrjackson2000 · · Score: 2, Funny

    No wonder the yellow always runs out first!

  37. I think this gets the score for the most... by Darius+Jedburgh · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...unlikely conspiracy that turned out to be true. Or do you know of any even more unlikely but true comspiracies?

  38. odd by BitterAndDrunk · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Isn't it considered best practice at this point to obfuscate credit cards in a one-way hash? I know for a fact that a certain vendor (rhymes with Storacle) had serious complaints regarding the storage of credit card numbers unencrypted.


    They have since changed that practice, I believe. (there was an enhancement request logged almost 5 years ago to take care of it)


    The more robust CRM/Order Management systems that have serialization tracking would allow you to associate a customer number (and consequently all customer data) with a product serial, but the CC# should be next to impossible to retrieve.


    Best practices, and all that.

    --
    You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .
    1. Re:odd by PGillingwater · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Next to impossible?

      Granted, it's not easy. But it's also not wildly difficult to use the constrained keyspace of a credit card to generate a dictionary of all possible hashes for valid credit cards (remember, the key space is even further constrained by check digits implicit in the numbers), and store that on a simple lookup table on more or more Blu-Ray DVDs.

      --
      Paul Gillingwater
      MBA, CISSP, CISM
  39. My country right or wrong is WRONG by Analogy+Man · · Score: 5, Insightful
    Where do we stop using intrusive technologies.

    • Felonious use of technology (e.g. counterfieter)
    • Legal use by felon (e.g. mail from murderer)
    • Illegal use as civil disobediance (e.g. printing document that is improperly classified secret for political reasons)
    • Constitutionally protected but anti-establishment use (e.g. hand distribution of fliers of "Top 10 Reasons to Impeach Congressman Blowhard")

    The "if you have nothing to hide" apologists for elimination of freedoms is a slippery slope to totalitarianism. Orwell would snicker!

    --
    When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.
    1. Re:My country right or wrong is WRONG by 1ucius · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The first one example (counterfeiting) is different than the others - its sensitivity is based on the act of producing the document itself, as opposed to the content of the document. Accordingly, it seems like you can cover libertarian concerns by limiting this to "printers and photocopiers that are good enough to produce a realistic fakes," perhaps even "and only when those devices are using the high quality settings." The very few documents that would matter for examples 2-4 can be easily cleansed by making a photocopy at the local gas station before mailing and/or printing with low quality settings.

      The EFF document is, characteristically, a bit heavy on hysteria and thin on details, but at least suggests that this is limited to "color laser printers."

  40. The REAL counterfeit artists by dada21 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There are 3 types of counterfeit artists:

    1. The casual home counterfeiter. A guy with an inkjet who is 'having fun.' These guys get caught quickly by the secret service.

    2. The black market Wal*Mart, a.k.a. the Mob. They reconstitute $1 bills into pulp, reform the cotton into large sheets, and silkscreen new 'old style' $100 bills. By using the real paper and near-perfect ink in the old style bills, they get past the verification pens and bank scanners. Funny thing is, this style of counterfeit is almost dead as credit card fraud is much more lucrative and far safer. Bank draft fraud and money order fraud is easier, too.

    3. The Federal Reserve. Yes, Alan Greenspan and friends is actually the #1 counterfeit organization in the world. Because our currency is no longer backed by hard metal, the FRB is allowed to counterfeit billions of new dollars annually. The is legal by acts of Congress, and is not only the biggest reason for inflation, it is also the cause of the stock market bubble and the housing bubble. It also allows the government to finance off budget programs by introducing new currency into circulation.

    Incorporating these security dots only helps catch common criminals, not large scale organizations. And the worst violator, the FRB, counterfeits legally.

  41. Re:Er, huh? by Teilo · · Score: 5, Informative

    Quite frankly, you have no idea what you are talking about. I work in high-end color, and all of our toner devices have this encoding technology. I have talked to plenty of people in the industry, who sell these machines. They are required, by law, to record the serial number and purchaser of every such device. Furthermore, they are required by law to record the sale of any electronic part used in these devices, and yes, all the boards are individually keyed to the serial number of the device. Swap boards with another device, and the machine stops functioning.

    This is also true of the mid-range color laser printers you purchase at your local Best Buy or Micro Center. In fact, if you open your eyes at the checkout and actually pay attention, you would notice that after they scan the bar-code, their register prompts them to either scan the serial number bar-code, or hand-key in the serial number. Now, they may not be required to record your name and address, but they most certainly can trace it back to your credit card.

    The whole point of this is to catch counterfeiters. It's useless to know the serial-number of a device if you don't know where it was sold.

    --
    Mir tut es leid, Menschen daß Einfältigfehlersuchenbaumfolgendenaffen sind.
  42. Anti leaking by JerryQ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the UK the immediate assumption would be that the quid pro quo for the printer manufacturers would be the contracts to supply to government agencies, so the next time an inconvenient government document was leaked to the press they could be straight on to where it leaked from.

    Jerry

  43. Class Action Lawsuit? by markdowling · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is there potential to sue the printer mfgs (esp. outside the US) because the printer is not doing its best to produce a faithful printout (i.e. adding extra information to the page not intended by the user, irrespective of the fact that it's hard to make out). I mean, people who wear blue Beatles specs must be driven nuts :)

    That being said, if all the printer problems I had were a few yellow dots I'd be doing well...

  44. Re:This plays into the hands of organized crime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    now that the code has been publically cracked, the government agencies know that it is unreliable

    Courts regularly accept logfiles from ISPs as evidence, yet we all know how "reliable" those are. It's all accepted as contributory evidence, not simply black or white.

    So how are you going to defend yourself against a ransom note bearing your printer's serial number and a time and date when you were proveably at home? Good luck hoping that the judge knows that it's "unreliable" and could have been forged by criminals, when the prosecution's well-paid lawyers and experts are telling him that this evidence is very likely to be authentic.

  45. Re:Before... (the Patriot Act) by CyricZ · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Actually, most intelligent people know that the Democrats and Republicans are all cut from the same pile of shit, and have been for ages. They're not there to help out any regular American citizen. They're out to represent and aide their various business interests, be them the entertainment industry or the petroleum industry.

    Indeed, that's one of the reasons that most sane people are so fearful of technology such as this. Your system itself is flawed, in that nobody is truly representing you, as a citizen. Companies can get away with this, and then others can get away with abusing such information. Were true conservatives or liberals in power, then this would never be allowed to happen, and the companies that did participate in this activity would be punished. Why is that? Because true conservatives and true liberals care about individual rights.

    --
    Cyric Zndovzny at your service.
  46. Re:Another Terrible Invasion of Nothing! by mwillems · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Afraid I don't share your optimism.

    First of all: there is an intrusion, a loss of freedom, even when the power is not abused. In the 60s, your average hippy could pretty much buy a car using cash and drive to San Franciscoi - now you need a ton of paperwork, legal docs, and so on. You can no longer buy a car using cash - not a new car anyway. Another example: in the 1960s the government did not know what I spent my money on. Now it does. That represents a serious loss of freedom even if the government does not curremtly abuse that new power. These losses of freedom may or may not be necessary, but they need robust discussion and debate before they happen.

    The second point: these powers DO get abused. An example. During German occupation in WW2, the Dutch sent more Jews to the concentration camps, as a percentage of the population, than any other nation save Germany. Why? They had a very efficient tracking system that from birth to grave tracked everyone's address, race, relatives' addresses, and so on. Guess what - at the first opportunity, the new people in power abused that power and traced all Jews and sent them to their deaths. Interestingly, in the years leading up to WW2, the Dutch had a debate much like this one, and the consensus was that "if you have done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear".

    Examples abound: when you give away your freedoms you (a) lose those freedoms (and the freedom to buy a printer anomymously may not seem such a big deal to you - but it IS a freedom!), and (b) over time, they sometimes get abused: you can count on a certain percentage of this happening.

    Michael

    --

    ---
    BDOS ERR ON A:>
  47. Re:Technology and Law by symbolic · · Score: 2, Interesting


    Since every government deployment of new technology for law enforcement is supposed to net these awesome reductions in [insert targeted criminal act here], I'd like to see statistics on just how many counterfeiters have been caught using this method of tagging printed documents.

  48. I just had this convo w/a client by BitterAndDrunk · · Score: 2, Interesting
    We just had this debate. The one time transaction is nifty, but you lose the efficiency most sites now offer: the ability to store those numbers for later use.

    It's a trade-off.

    It's a tough call for the end-user oriented sites; if you're selling books and it takes a bunch of hoops to make a purchase. . . chances are they'll shift to a more user-friendly site such as Amazon. (the security minded, perhaps not. But that's probably not your customer base except in niche markets).

    Big trade-off to make.

    --
    You better watch out, there may be dogs about . . .
  49. Re:Legality by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Insightful

    > Is it legal to do what the EEF did

    I'm sure the EFF would *love* for the US Gov't to make a stink over this.

    --
    -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  50. Freedom does not mean lack of accountability by podperson · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There seem to be a lot of people who confuse *freedom* with *freedom to do antisocial stuff and remain anonymous*. These are not the same things.

    Free speech is not free *anonymous* speech.

    We all want cheap color printers. Fine. We don't want the world flooded with forged documents -- so we take some barely perceptable measures to curb that. Deal with it.

    1. Re:Freedom does not mean lack of accountability by Moofie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Free speech is not free *anonymous* speech."

      How do you figure? If I'm free to speak, but free to get hounded by the FBI/fired/audited by the IRS if I say something that the authorities don't like, that's a pretty thin kind of freedom.

      "We don't want the world flooded with forged documents"

      Says you. I don't really think that it's as much of a problem as you do.

      "Deal with it."

      Ah. That must be in the hidden text in the 10th Amendment. You know, the one written in invisible yellow dots.

      --
      Why yes, I AM a rocket scientist!
    2. Re:Freedom does not mean lack of accountability by vinn01 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The Federalist Papers were very antisocial and also very anonymous. The articles were written by James Madison, Alexander Hamilton, and John Jay, under the pseudonym "Publius". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federalist_Papers

      Hell, the whole American revolution was started by anonymous antisocial people.

  51. Re:Caxton by ScentCone · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Guns are meant to kill, and only operated by qualified personelle, so they should be identified.

    No, guns are meant to direct a projectile in a given direction. Not unlike a golf club, actually. And of course, you can kill people with a gun, or with a golf club. And, "qualified"? What do you mean? The only qualification you need in most states, especially for shotguns and rifles, is to not be a criminal. At least we still have that relative freedom.

    I use guns all the time, and have never killed anybody. I have, though used a gun to prevent harm from coming to somebody, but you're obviously not interested in hearing about that (since it would ruin your argument).

    Same with explosives.

    What world do you live in? As I expressly mentioned, those are tools used by farmers (to pull out tree stumps and rocks), construction workers (to help build foundations and roads), etc. Do you know how many thousands of times a day people use explosives in mining, agriculture, and construction... and no one is killed?

    How to you figure that a printer's registration of its serial number controls information? Do you have a single bit of evidence that suggests that anyone, ever, has used that feature of those products to in any way prevent anyone from disseminating information (other than "information" in the form of counterfeit documents)? No, you don't.

    Why dont people get this?
    controling guns = good
    controling instructions on building a gun = bad


    Do you even hear yourself? People don't get that because it's irrational and impractical. You want freedom (of communication) but not the freedom to use your freely obtained information to defend yourself? How about a more sane (and constitutionally valid) take on it:

    controlling information about guns = bad
    holding people accountable for their actions = good

    Did you know that the rate of murder in the country was actually down last year? In my county, it has actually gone up. And that's not people being shot by other people with guns: it's people being stabbed by people with knives. Do you recommend that only "trained personnel" have access to sharp metal things? Are knives only meant to kill people? If you don't think so, then don't you see the ridiculous double standard? Further, don't you think that people who don't want to be stabbed to death should have the means by which to defend themselves? Or, are you recommending (since you're not a big one on holding people accountable for their actions) that we have police officers at every house to make sure that everyone is safe from throat-cutting gang members, all the time? I'd rather not live under those circumstances, thank you, but I'd also like the option of preventing an idiot with a knife from hurting my family. You control the information in society, you control alot more than knowing whether your vehicle has been in an accident 5 years ago

    I absolutely guarantee that your privacy is at much greater risk from the information about your car than it is from the serialization of your printer output. Your tag numbers are recorded by databases as you pass through toll stops, your registration of your vehicle (and its type, the insurance you have on it, the work you've had done on it, including the mileage you've used, and much else) is easily cross referenced. On most newer vehicles, data recorders know how fast you've been going lately (including how you were accelerating or braking, etc., at the time of an accident). Fancy new nav systems in cars leave a lengthy trail of GPS-based information about where you've been lately, and how fast you were driving when you went. That type of information is being gathered and chewed on way, way more often and by more parties than your hardcopy laser printer output ever will be (especially if you're not faking official documents).

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  52. Re:Which printers? - found it by peter1 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Ok, so maybe I should actually read/search first and then post later...

    http://www.eff.org/Privacy/printers/list.php/

  53. Re:Serious Question by fowlerserpent · · Score: 2, Informative

    Actually, I bet it does have an internal clock. New fancy laser printers have new fancy computers inside. Many even have a built in webserver for changing setting and doing maintenance. Just go to the designated IP and you can do all sorts of things. Many printers can even keep a detailed printing log. These printers used for coutnerfeiting aren't your HP Deskjets from Wal-Mart.

  54. Re:Freedom DOES mean PRIVACY by quarkscat · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "There seem to be a lot of people who confuse *freedom* with *freedom to do antisocial stuff and remain anonymous*."

    Ahh. Spoken like a true facist. You are taking the right of free expression in a democratic society and chaining it to the dungeon wall with the use of another as yet to be defined term, "antisocial stuff". Would that be "antisocial" as defined by the ruling political party, whichever religious sect is currently in vogue, or perhaps as determined by a public poll?

    "Free speech is not free *anonymous* speech."

    What a crock! One of the basic rights any citizen of a democracy has is the right to vote, PRIVATELY. No other person, group of persons, or government entity is granted the right to know how an individual votes -- without such privacy protections the entire foundation of democracy is open to the social, political or financial pressure to vote a particular way.

    And only in a democracy falling to the continued pressures of fascist stateism would the government redefine the ephemeral and undefined term "free press" only as persons engaged in journalistic activities employed by corporate media moguls.

    I would suggest that you spend a few years in the "new and improved" fascist USSR, being run by an ex-KGB general, and experience the fruits of your specious argument firsthand.

  55. Re:Er, huh? by Cheviot · · Score: 2, Informative

    Working in big box retail sales, specifically in warranty repair, I do know what I'm talking about.

    It is astoundingly rare for cashiers to actually scan the serial numbers off product boxes, even when they're available as barcodes. Far more often they simply scan the normal UPC a second time or scan the model number UPC.

    If they have to actually read the serial number and type it in they generally either skip the serial or fat finger the keyboard to make it look as if they've entered a serial number, creating no end of problems for warranty reimbursement.

    If the security of the nation is coming down to cashiers who make six dollars an hour... well then, I guess we're up the creek.

  56. This is so old... by Dan+B. · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I can't believe it has taken 9 years for this to make it to the public...

    I work for Xerox, we actually tell customers about this as a security feature of the machines. The article mentions that Xerox devices are more common in offices rather than homes (true) but company suits want to know that their employees aren't going to be making copies of currency (or stamps, bonds, etc.) on office equipment, thereby making them liable in some way, shape or form.

    If you try to copy a US $ bill on a Xerox, you get a smudgy black blob anyway. It works with a few currencies, but it has the security dots on it (invisible to the naked eye) all over the page. We have been asked to identify the source a few times, and it is usually guys working in pay-for-print copy stores that get busted for conterfieting.

    Other than that, there is no way we can track anything other than the time and place of the copy. So quit stressing.

    --
    Dan. -- So what if it's spelt wrong, nobody's perfect