Slashdot Mirror
US Passports To Recieve RFID Chips
connah0047 writes "The Washington Post reports that US passports will be getting RFID chips by October of 2006. Despite security concerns, the U.S. has now committed to putting RFID chips in the passports of all U.S. citizens. The new regulations will mean that all new and renewing U.S. passports will contain RFID chips by October 2006. While some believe this is a step forward, there are major privacy and security issues with the wireless technology."
From TFA:
Abraham Lincoln once said "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
I don't know about you all, but I think that Abe was a pretty wise man with a great idea. I sure wish that our government was like that...
I can't help but wonder what would happen if everyone started "accidentally" microwaving their passports.
Earlier this year, I was sitting at a travel agent's office in Japan. There was a message prominately displayed on the desk in both English and Japanese informing travelers that they needed to have special machine-readable passports to enter the U.S. The rest of the world already thinks of us as loonies. This new nonsense won't help. Especially since we're requiring *other countries* to do this as well if their citizens want to enter the U.S.
What's the point of RFID in a passport? Is it somehow magically impossible to forge or duplicate? Can't we agree that the people who are willing to go through the effort to make counterfeit documents like this will also have the resources to handle RFID? Aren't there ways we can spend this money that might do something a little more rational towards increasing security? Like what? I dunno. But there are probably better ways to spend the millions (billions?) this will cost to implement.
What ever do you mean? =)
You got the touch!
WAKE UP PEOPLE OF THE USA!
In other news, shares of Litton-McBee have been soaring 3%. According to industry expert Batson Dee-Seeling, this is because it is anticipated that microwave ovens (which uses magnetrons of which Litton-McBee have 33% of the market) sales will increase in the next two years.
Now I'll be able to walk right through Customs without stopping.
Riiiiiight.
-- oh.... so..... sleeeeeepy.
They are going to receive RFID chips? :)
Would it be all that impossible to just remove it from the passport?
Wonder how long until this gets whored out..Unfortunately for us, RFID chips can be read by any schmuck walking down the block with a scanner, not just the ones at the customs desk in the airport. Essentially, you may as well just pass out flyers with your personal information on them...Is this REALLY where we should be heading?
"Crime fighters fight crime. Fire fighters fight fire. What do freedom fighters fight?" -George Carlin
If I microwave my passport with that disable the chip? I need to know. My passport expires in 2009.
How big is this RFID chip? Small enough to be undetectable in the cover of the passport? How well will it function after being hit with a hammer?
Great, just another thing to beep while going through the scanners!
Proof by very large bribes. QED.
Even if the phrase wasn't catchy enough to remember, please spell check headlines for god's sake, they show up on RSS readers the world over...
FYI, in case that was still too obtuse, it's spelled recEIve, not recIEve.
Glad I got the matching wallet when I bought my hat
...before they start tagging our fecal matter.
You don't have to wait until 2009. Just get a new one before this is implemented.
I should patent the Farraday Passport Sleeve. My slogan would be, "The 'tin foil hat' for sane people."
Oh, damn. I need to patent stuff before I post the idea to Slashdot.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
just wrap your passport in foil
i'm not saying that you don't have a right to complain about this, and that there aren't real issues of snooping involved
but i am saying the solution is easy and the implementation of this won't be stopped
so get some foil, and wrap it up, and move on to fighting for something worthwhile
don't waste your energies on a done deal with an easy work around
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
On the plus side, it will be much easier for terrorists to wave a RFID scanner and pick out the Americans on an international flight.
-- Gary Goldberg KA3ZYW 301/249-6501 AIM:OgGreeb Digital Marketing Inc., Bowie, MD
So now if I get kidnapped in the Middle East and get my passport stolen, they can track down the culprits! Yay! But wait -- what about ME? And here I thought they'd want me more than the bad guys :-/.
Same substance was part of the Slashback post earlier this week.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
I'm all for this! We know that RFID chips are "visible" at distances up to 100 feet. This means that disgruntled locals can much more easily target Americans rather than foreigners like me, from Canada, who appear Canadian.
It would seem the time to renew is now!
So what happens to the RFID when it goes through a dozen X-Ray scans? How about just sitting in my pocket at 35k ft? Have these chips been tested to show that they will continue to work after normal wear of a passport? My passport certainly takes a beating everytime I travel: x-rays, increased radiation due to high elevation, bending, humidity, etc. I doubt all these things have been tested for.
I really don't want to have to wait and hour and miss my flight as the prove that I am who my passport says I am just because some stupid chip failed.
My recent passport was sans RFID. I've got a little less than 10 years before I have to renew again. If this turns out to be such a problem, by the time I have to renew again, maybe sanity will reign by then. (I suspect things will be worse, but you buy some time)
"there are major privacy and security issues with the wireless technology"
news to me.
So how about selling passport wallets that have a metal mesh in the cover. So long as the passport is in the wallet and it is closed the faraday cage around it should make rfid reading impossible. Would that actually work?
That safes you for all situations until you cross borders. Then of course anybody standing near enough can read it.. more or less.
Troll/Flamebait/Funny/Interesting
:-}
If I was in this situation I'd be reluctant to get a passport and travel overseas. This seems to be a bad thing for Americans as most of them don't really know what is outside of America... I learnt about other countries from stories of our war veterans fighting on foriegn soil to help protect it... Do American children get taught about the same stories of the 1st and 2nd World War? the A bomb drop etc in school? Mormans have it worse, their new testament was based in America, maybe they don't even know about the Israel/Palistine area....
Hopefully I'm only speaking about a small number the Americans and some of them can flame me back to disprove what I've just said.
*Holds up lighter to ignite flame throwers*
this should make it easier for terrorists to target Americans - just put a little wireless device on the bomb to scan for genuine RFID-passport-carrying US tourists before detonating...
the lazarus corporation
And as soon as RFID chip passports and RFID-identification cards are commonly distributed, someone screams out that everyone should be required to carry a RFID-enabled ID card at all times.
r ies so the population again thinks they need the goverment, who in reality is threatening their, their security and their freedom, to protect them against future threats.
Take my word for it. This is only a first step towards such an underlying goal. And the numb-minded US population will fall for it and accept it. And if they do not initially, then the US goverment can (and will) just create another illuded terrorist threat or train someone to fly a couple of air-planes into a building and then, hours after, blow it up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_conspiracy_theo
What will the punishment for being stopped on the street without RFID identification be? Let me guess, some kind of RFID-enabled implant...
9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
I don't see the fuss is
...
about most Americans don't
travel.
I mean why would we want
to travel if we living in
best country in the world.
Oh yeah i forgot
to spread freedom and
democracy to the rest
of the world.
Guess you can still do that
just don't for get your
duct tape/tin foil wallet.
just wondering :
do you want freedom fries
with that?
http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageI D=758
...
A majority of the public supports an antiterrorism measure that would require all citizens to carry a national identity card at all times to show a police officer upon request. But support is lower now than in the immediate aftermath of 9/11. Just over half today (56%) support the idea, while 40% oppose it. In mid-September 2001, 70% were in favor. Opinion about this issue does not break cleanly along partisan or ideological lines.
Republicans (60%) and Democrats (59%) both support the idea of a national identity card, while independents are somewhat less supportive (52%). Conservative Republicans (at 58%) are a bit less enthusiastic than moderate-to-liberal Republicans (65%); liberal Democrats (at 50%) are less supportive than conservative and moderate Democrats (63%). College graduates are split on the idea, while more than six-in-ten of those who did not go to college favor
IMO this country is going down the tubes in a big way.
Remember history or civics class in school? The inevitable lessons about how free the US was compared to Hitler's germany or the soviet union. Back then they used to point out how free we were because we did not need papers (internal passports) to travel.
How fricking free are we when we need a driver's license to board a plane? Or when our KIDS need ID to board a plane? Or to visit a national park, or federal building? Not to mention the citizens are going to EAT the costs.
More and more it seems the only alternative is to go gulching until the country regains its "mind your own business" mentality.
Today's USA, The Anti-federalists worst nightmare coming true.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
I somehow suspect that damaging a RFID chip (or passport) will soon be illegal.
-Valiss
Just one more example of how I thank God every single day that I'm Canadian.
Guys, just because the chip will be in the passport doesnt mean the passport cover wont change.
They may make a wave resistant case for your passport, or maybe you can just buy one so nobody can scan it unless you open the passport yourself.
Just an idea
can anyone provide a link to shielded wallets at ThinkGeek? i'll need one to go with my shiny hat
Supreme executive power derives from a mandate from the masses, not from some farcical aquatic ceremony.
NOw about the warnings from the US State Department about staying out of sight must also include "be out of scan range"! Friggen IDIOTS!
"shh hide in the closet the torture police won't find you"
scan....
MEET BUBBA with an attitude!
Gizmos Gagets For Ninjas
http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/defense/12 27842.html?page=1&c=y
Try that instead of the terrorist propiganda.
Once we have all the equipment to scan for RFID passport chips, we don't need the passports anymore!!!
Yes, think of the possibilities!
The government will then throw away these passports that can be either stolen, misplaced or lost. Instead, they'll want you to embed these RFID chips into your body.
Think about it. It is possible. They will do this. That's the big plan.
No, they were referring to all new and renewing passports as of 10/06 will contain RFID. They aren't requiring all citizens to have one. I don't have one or know many people here who do, but after I heard this announcement the other day I hit their site looking into how to obtain one of the current ones. I haven't left the country yet, but I'd like to, so I figure I might as well get myself one soon. They don't need to make passports compulsory as the Senate already passed the Real ID Act in May without debate, which will effectively create a national ID.
Now this the perfect technology to make thefts of passports easy. Just break into the home and get your scanner running. It will lead you to the owner's passport.
:-)
And that's also usually where other important documents are
If you want a taste of freedom you should try visiting France disguised as a black North African. You'll soon find out how much fun having no papers is.
There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
This is not RFID. The term does not occur in the article. These are 14443 contactless smart cards. I can state with certainty that the chips being used are not RFID. I will admit that there is some arguement over what the term RFID should cover, but these really fall outside of the scope. These are much more complex chip that do not simply broadcast a unique id number. I've posted on this on previous articles and /. has retracted the erroneous language. I hope that they will do so again. It really muddies the debate when "technical" sites such as this can't be bothered to use proper terminology.
Lasers Controlled Games!
Hint: another name for a compulsory passport is an "identity card". These are things you get in places called "police states", of which a notable example is a place called "France"
Or, perhaps, the United States. Or were you living under a rock when the Real ID act passed? Well, just in case, here's a CNet FAQ on the topic.
Hey, it got wet, I had to dry it, what else could I do?
HA! I just wasted some of your bandwidth with a frivolous sig!
Remember, if you're a darkie or a hot woman, plan to spend some extra time being strip-searched. It's for your own protection.
I'm a white male whose not terribly good looking. I get stopped as a "Selectee" sometimes. It's usually when I change my plans within 24 hours of my flight. Another way to get flagged: one-way tickets. There's this poor old lady I know who buys one-way tickets to see her kids every year. She buys one-way so she can go back when she wants to. Every single time, she gets pulled out of line and searched. Security is completley ridiculous.
Evil people don't think they're evil. - George Lucas, Making of Ep III
There's the internal passport, aka driver's license. The contents of the DL, used to be up to the states. Now, because of the big gov't demo^H^H^H^Hrepublocrats, there is the REAL ID Act.
...your RFID passport or tamper with it in any other way. These passports contain an anti-terrorist self-distruct mechanism and any tampering with said mechanism could result in it being activated causing in severe injury to you and any other civilan personnel in the vicinity. Modifications and periodic maintenance of these passports should only be performed by qualified ordinance experts. Be sure to keep your new RFID passport in a cool place, out of the sun and do not wrap it in aluminium foil as this might interfere with the GPS sub system installed in your passport for your safety in order to allow the Department of Homeland Security to monitor your movements at all times.
Only to idiots, are orders laws.
-- Henning von Tresckow
but don't expect it to be easy
freedom is something that must be fought for to achieve and then worked hard for to be maintained
it is a battle, every day
all i am asking you to do is pick your battles wisely, don't waste your energies on small issues when there are larger threats deserving of your attention
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What are you, an astronaut? Geez.
-matthew
"THERE IS NO JUSTICE, THERE IS ONLY ME." -Death
I haven't read the article-however-, Other than passport being wireless and so theirfore sexier, what sort of benifits does a RFID taged passport have? I would actually like to know, what kind of arguments are for a RFID passport? (or anything else for that matter).
you mean this?
I see three periods listed since 1943 when you've been under a dictatorship.
So from 1943 until today, 62 years, 29 under a dictator. Yes, a shining example
of why I should trust my government to have me on file....
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Dupe! Dupe! Dupe! Dupe of URL.
Please, take a moment to consider the following:
-The term RFID is thrown around quite a bit these days and doesn't accurately describe what they'll probably use. As in the often-discussed Wal-Mart RFID is dumb memory in a contactless format. It's probably not that kind of module, but I could see some benefit to adding something as simple as a unique ID to each passport.
-It's probably either a Phillips MIFARE or maybe Sony's version FELICIA (sp?) Which in both cases is very proprietary encryption schemes in a contactless format. Both of which are generally available all over the world. Something like this has been used for many years in mass-transit and already embedded in paper. So the govt' has some idea it will work.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Not yet, just a physicist. Most people don't realize that you get more radiation for a single flight than is allowed by a low level radiation worker for an entire year. Thus if you take your docimeter on a flight you must return it immediately and get a new one so you will get reasonable reading.
Here in Sweden all passports issued since October 1st this year have an RFID chip containing biometric data. Currently a digital photograph along with digitalized information of all the regular printed information is contained in it, but within a few years fingerprints will be added to it as well.
The harsh feelings amongst the population towards these new passports is not restricted only to the potential integrity issues. The number of police stations where one can get these new passports is less than half compared to where one could get passports before, as the new equipment required for e.g. the photography is so expensive so they didn't get the equipment to every of the old places. Also these new passports cost more, and are only valid five years compared to the ten years of the old passports. So in the long term the queues at the police stations to get a passport will be far worse than it has been, and the queuing has been bad enough already for a long time.
Belgium and Norway are other European countries that have passports containing RFID implemented, and Germany will soon also have these.
while true; do eject; eject -t; done
Let me state right up front that, technological and potential privacy issues aside, I don't think this is going to make passports any more secure. I further believe the arrogance shown by the U.S. towards other countries in this matter ("You WILL convert to this same standard if you want your citizens to be able to visit our country") is absolutely typical of our current administration.
In other words, I don't agree with it.
WITH THAT SAID: Allow me to point out a few facts, based on previously-published material and my own knowledge of RFID technology.
First and foremost: What no one seems to have noticed (it may not have been reported in TFA, which I've yet to read) is that the State Department is, reportedly, going to weave their idea of a Faraday Cage right into the covers of the new passports in the form of a metallic-filament weave. Bruce Schneier mentions this on his site already.
This should, in theory, effectively counteract any sort of attempt to read the thing remotely when the passport is closed. If you're really paranoid about it, you can place your passport into an ESD Shielding Bag, available from most electronic component distributors such as Allied Electronics, DigiKey, or Mouser.
On the subject of long-distance remote reading: I doubt very much we're going to see, as one other poster pointed out (paraphrasing), "criminals with laptops and a portable reader under their coat" any time soon. For starters, the return emission from most passive RFID chips of the low and mid-frequency ranges (125-148kHz and 13.56MHz) is very weak. The chip would require a significant amount of close-up RF energy to excite it, and a large antenna and high-quality receiver to pick up the return signal.
Going further along those lines: Remember that RF field strength decreases quickly, as you move away from the source, according to the Inverse Square Law. The main reason that the low and mid-freq chips are only readable up to about 3 feet away is because, in order to have them work from further away, you'd need a transceiver the size of a large HF ham radio setup, and equally large (and obvious) antennas (the lower the frequency, the physically larger the antenna has to be).
For a criminal to effectively read such chips with portable equipment, they'd have to be standing more than close enough to the security folk to attract unwanted attention.
While I have found some references to the State Dept. having been able to read the test passports from 30 feet away with "special equipment," I also recall that this equipment was hardly portable, and required direct connection to AC power to be operable at all. In other words, it needed a lot more power than an easily-portable battery source could provide, and it was hardly what I would call surreptitious. Based on that stated range, I have reason to believe that the DoS was using 915MHz RFID tags for their test. Such tags are, according to this list, very much readable from at least 25 feet away.
I've been unable to locate any references on which specific frequency or type of RFID chip will be used in US passports (anyone else have any references on that?) Despite that, I think it's premature to draw conclusions based solely on the news articles to date. News articles do not, after all, make for a technical white paper.
I would suggest that those who get the new passports, and that have the technical know-how, try to read them with an appropriate RFID reader. Try different distances and angles, see if you can actually read the thing with the cover closed and (if possible) try a variety of d
Bruce Lane, KC7GR,
Blue Feather Technologies
Good question. Ask Zonk (or the submitter) since he seems to have invented it. Please note that there isn't RFID in these passports. Note that the article linked to never used the term. Only /. does. These are contactless smart cards, which have different implications than RFID. It would be nice to have a debate on the actual technology being used here rather than the RFID boogeyman that /. is so eager to chase.
Lasers Controlled Games!
I'd also like to invest in the company that is going to sell these holders. Just how long before Privacy Purses become the next fashion accessory. One that shields all the RFID-tagged items inside it.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
Abraham Lincoln once said "that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth." I don't know about you all, but I think that Abe was a pretty wise man with a great idea. I sure wish that our government was like that...
h tm
i ncoln/
Our current government is like Lincoln's in many ways. In the Union (the North) Lincoln was considered very controversial, hated by a large percentage of the population, and his handling of the war was frequently criticized (in New York there were Draft riots). Lincoln was one of our greatest Presidents and truly believed in liberty in general but in his day-to-day handling of a major war liberty was put aside. As it is with today's war. Don't get fixated on Iraq, think War on Terror in general, this will be a multi-decade multi-generational war like the Cold War with Communism.
"With Congress not in session until July, Lincoln assumed all powers not delegated in the Constitution, including the power to suspend habeas corpus. In 1861, Lincoln had already suspended civil law in territories where resistance to the North's military power would be dangerous. In 1862, when copperhead democrats began criticizing Lincoln's violation of the Constitution, Lincoln suspended habeas corpus throughout the nation and had many copperhead democrats arrested under military authority because he felt that the State Courts in the north west would not convict war protesters such as the copperheads. He proclaimed that all persons who discouraged enlistments or engaged in disloyal practices would come under Martial Law."
http://www.civil-liberties.com/pages/did_lincoln.
"In pursuing victory, Lincoln assumed extralegal powers over the press, declared martial law in areas where no military action justified it, quelled draft riots with armed soldiers, and drafted soldiers to fight for the Union cause. No President in history had ever exerted so much executive authority."
http://www.americanpresident.org/history/abrahaml
Now all I need is a scanner, and I'll have an American Tourist Detector.
will burn out any rfid chip AFIK. Seems like the simple solution there :)
(at this point I put on my real tin foil hat and wonder which parts of the govt might want to wander around snooping on passports themselves .... in bus stations, airport rental car counters, subways, etc etc ....)
See slashdot from earlier in the week. This will invalidate the passport.
"That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed," -Declaration of Independence
I want to thank the American Government for making it SOOOOO much easier to learn about people without them even knowing about. I'm sure I'll be able to tap that card and get all the info I need to steal their identity. What? You don't think I can get my hands on the same scanners your government uses? I bet it will be on eBay the day the project starts. Oh by the way. Thank you for making all the wars our fighters done totally and completly worthless. Last I checked, we fought for freedom, now you take it away in the name of what, terrorism? Something you actually thing you can stop? Isn't that what you said about crime in America? Isn't that what you said about drugs in America? How much are you going to profit in this? We are losing this country. It all started when all the sudden people have to speak Spanish to get jobs, now people have to give up their personal info which is 10 times more easy to get now, just to go across country lines. This is getting pathetic. What's next? You're going to tell me what kind of toilet paper to use to wipe my ass? Or which toilet I can take a crap in? I will be the first to say this. I can't believe that this country is getting to the point where it's not worth living in any more. All it's going to take a a little more time before Russia has more liberties than we do.
US Passport, page 6, paragraph 2: US Government Property. "This passport is the property of the United States Government. Upon demand made by an authorized representative of the United States Government, it must be surrendered." Paragraph 4: Alteration or mutilation of passport. "This passport must not be altered or mutilated in any way. Alteration may make it INVALID, and, if willful, may subject you to prosecution (Title 18, U.S. Code, Section 1543).
Seriously, here in europe they still teach history in school. The USA are on a very dark path, and pretty soon the rest of the world are going to be forced to protect ourselves from them.
Perhaps there are some history lessons you have missed. In the US we have in times of war temporarily restricted liberty. During the US Civil War President Abraham Lincoln muzzled the press, declared martial law in areas of political opposition far from areas of military campaigns, suspended constitutional rights, and ordered the military to ignore Supreme Court orders to unhold these constitutional rights. What is great about the United States is that we can engage in such excesses in times of crisis but then restore liberty when the crisis is over or when we come to realize our overreactions and mistakes as with slavery, the internment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, the anti-communist witchhunts of the Cold War. We can fix things with rebellion, ok, slavery was an exception.
As far as a threat to others, well that is a strange comment from a European. In times of emergency we have had major military forces in Europe and been pretty darn quick to largely pack up and go home, no carving up the spoils, in fact helping to rebuild both friend and foe alike. I think you confuse the hysteria and politically inspired exaggerations of the moment with long standing behavior, well long in the US sense of history not European sense.
I suspect that the hysteria and political differences are due to the US believing it is in a major war (War on Terror, not Irag) and Europe being in what many Americans would say is a state of denial. It doesn't really matter if it is true or not, it only matter that many Americans do feel that we are in a multi-decade multi-generational war with "terror" and they will accept temporary restrictions on liberty. I'm speaking in general, I don't know that RFID's on passports qualify as an attack on liberty. The hysteria may really be more luddite in nature. When the war/crisis is over government excesses will be rolled back due to public pressure, no rebellion required. Been there, done that.
Please don't taunt the happy, fun passport. (At least I got the joke)
Why is this under the heading "Your Rights Online"? This has nothing to do with networks or the internet... Your Rights Offline maybe.
Being a grown-up means you're entitled to spelling things however you damn well please. And I always start sentences with prepositions.
Always gets stopped and searched. I'm sure it has nothing to do with my membership in the Green Party, and attendance at protests.
Time for a tin foil envelope.
"This mission is too important to allow you to jeopardize it." -- HAL
Then everyone would find themselves buying a new passport.
I see a good market for foil lined wallets in 2007. One of those would be cheaper than buying a new passport.
Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.
More to the point, can you fry other people's RFID passports? I would assume "yes" from my undergaduate level physics. Build high-power antenna. Get into or near airport, turn on device. Every RFID passport in the building is scrambled. Or build bigger resonating antenna, fry some large percentage of passports in the city.
Now THAT would be worthwhile civil disobedience. Frying the passport you hold just means you get hassled. Frying large numbers of passports makes the system unworkable.
No doubt you'd be classed as a "terrorist" by some, but that's just a label, you're a freedom fighter.
I just had to go search for more info on RFID implants because sooner or later bills will be proposed by somebody that they be introduced, initially on a voluntary basis....
...unlike the VeriKid service provided by the Mexican distributors of verisign technology:
http://www.solusat.com.mx/index1.html
http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,60771, 00.html
...they seem to be popular with body piercing fans:
Amal Graafstra Gets an RFID Implant
http://www.bmezine.com/news/presenttense/20050330. html
Back in July silicon.com reported the following: "Tommy Thompson, the Health and Human Services Secretary in President Bush's first term and a former Governor of Wisconsin, is going to get tagged. Thompson has joined the board of Applied Digital, which owns VeriChip, the company that specialises in subcutaneous RFID tags for humans and pets. To help promote the concepts behind the technology, Thompson himself will get an RFID tag implanted under his skin." http://networks.silicon.com/lans/0,39024663,391505 25,00.htm/
December 2003 - Subdermal RFID chip provokes furore http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/12/04/subdermal_ rfid_chip_provokes_furore/
October 2004 - FDA approves computer chip for humans - nice pic of an implant next to George Washington... http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6237364/
This article was followed up in November 2004 http://slate.msn.com/id/2109477/
Verisign thoughtfully provide a method to save you getting your child swapped in the hospital. "The number of total switching incidents is as high as 20,000 per year in the U.S." But don't worry. In this case the tag is not implanted... http://www.verichipcorp.com/
Although RFID implants have their detractors...
http://www.spychips.com/
http://www.notags.co.uk/page26.html
http://www.rfidconcerns.com/
http://www.shire.net/big.brother/digitalangel.htm
http://whiterose.samizdata.net/archives/cat_identi ty_cards.html
http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2005/02/impl anting_chip.html
And the odd geek or two: http://www.x11.net/wiki/index.php/My_RFID_Implant He has mp4 video footage of the implanting procedure. It doesn't sound like he will want to remove this implant anytime soon - OUCH!
The Mexican Government - "Mexico's Attorney General required the Mark of the Beast in a 160 people. Thousands more are now planned..." http://www.tldm.org/News4/MarkoftheBeast.htm
And the European Parliament! "Brussels: 'Implants to track people are OK'". http://management.silicon.com/government/0,3902467 7,39128836,00.htm/
"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely" Lord Acton (1834-1902)
My hyperlinks aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
I don't know that RFID's on passports qualify as an attack on liberty
The issue is that we have no choice unlike other uses of technology. Example: We have toll booths that use RFID to expedite the process of traveling the toll roads. But that is a choice, you don't have to do it, at least not at this point.
With the passport change it is not a matter of whether we want a more convenient way of getting through customs. This is being sold as a way to keep us safe and it is only opening potential privacy holes. Unless the passport has to physically touch a reader to be read, this is open to potential ID theft.
As far as a security method, what makes this any more secure than the existing passports? There will always be someone that will figure out how to counterfeit them, just like the new currency that was circulated. What's worse is that if the passports can be read without physical contact, the counterfeiters have an unending supply of information to program them with.
I can see it now... Americans abroad can now be picked out of a crowd at 60 feet thanks to a long range RFID detector, in addition, the device has already been configured to fit on gun barrels.
Who cares if it can be read, being detected is bad enough.
Error: Id10t detected
What is the point of putting these chips in passports?
I am would like to hear some reasons for doing this and not just
"A spokeswoman said the department is convinced the electronic passports will provide enhanced security."
How will this increase security? There is already a bar code in the back of my passport. I have no idea what it says but a machine should be able to read it. I would think it would be easier to get a machine to read the text and the picture on the front page than to put chips in the passports and then deploy readers for them all over the place. Am I completely wrong?
Who is going to make these chips? I might like to buy some stock.
I have read a bunch (not all) of the comments here and understand that many people do not want this, but can a few people discus, even as a devil's advocate why this might be a good idea?
from the US Declaration of Independence:
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed
I wish that we could have a national referendum on this RFID question. In many states, the acts of the legislatures can be put to a direct vote of the public, and the public, through the initiative process, can make law or amend the state constitution. I think it's time we got those processes into the US Constitution through a constitutional amendment...
Ok, listen ye all. RFID tags do not contain your date of birth and social security number and what not. It contains an ID. Yeah, right. An ID. Its a unique tag of identification. It is linked to all your personal information internally. I am not saying that your personal information cannot be compromised, BUT, its not as easy as scanning a wand on ur passport and extracting the information.
A person who can scan your passport AND have access to the secure internal information can map the id to the information and make merry. But whats the probability of that? The same probability of a guy getting ur credit card number AND having access to the secure internal information of a credit card company. You get it?
Ok, now continue bashing!
------------------
Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why?',
I dream things that never were and say, 'Why not?'
Sir George Bernard Shaw
If people are really that worried about privacy, couldn't some sort of lead case be made that would shield the passport from transmitting RF? Kind of like a tin foil hat for your passport.
640YB ought to be enough for anybody.
what do you americans use to prove your ID at job interviews at the like if you aren't yet old enough to drive and don't have a passport. I know its very tricky here in the uk to provide good proof of your identity if you don't have either a passport or a driving license.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
The idea is essentially the same as that of a seal; it adds one more relatively difficult to forge component to a document.
Joseph Smith was a fraud and a false prophet not a martyr. Died in a wildwest style jailbreak shootout. Hint: Martyrs don't shoot back! No-one ever witnesses his ficticious gold plates, really. Many of the mormon rituals were robbed from the freemasons.
until 2014. I got a replacement last year, so unless they change the rules, I won't have to worry about it until then. Just get one now and as long as you are over 16 or older they are good for 10 years (five if under).
US employers must require a document that proves you have the right to work in the country. For US citizens that's the social security card (not really ID, just your name and number printed on cardstock that's supposed to be hard to forge). I got mine as a teenager when my mom attested for me and presented them with my birth certificate.
So, you just keep your passport in a conductive bag when you don't want it to be read wirelessly - should get you some evil stares from the Customs officials when they see it - same as a radar using cop looks at a radar detector - but if the RFID tag bothers you, just bag it.
Predictably, the /. drones are all saying how this idea will cost us freedom and privacy. It's not entirely clear to me how it will do so, assuming they take proper steps to secure it. (And no, I didn't RTFA.) However, it is at least possible that it will have some benefits. I can think of a couple, though related to each other:
:(
1. I am an American living in South America. I've heard that US passports can be sold for about US$5000 here. If muggers know I'm carrying a US passport, I could be a target. But, if the photo is encoded in the chip, that would (supposedly) be impossible to modify, which would render a stolen passport worthless.
2. Related, if stolen passports are worthless for entering the country, it seems as though it really could prevent some undesirables from entering the States.
Overall, I'll need to know how they secure the things to make up my mind, but from my point of view, these benefits could be significant enough to justify it.
Of course, my passport expires next July, so my next one will not likely have this.
By the way, I did a little fact-checking on that study-abroad claim, and while it's close, it's not quite right. There are a few universities with higher numbers (see here. Those kinds of numbers fluctuate from year to year, of course, and my hearsay is from a little while ago ;-). There may have been a year when my claim was correct. Whatever the case, the rest of it stands.
Acius the unfamous
If you read the article carefully, you'll find the major concerns have been addressed:
1. Proximity requirement added
2. Eliminate spurious interception
3. encryption during transfer
4. Testing period on Diplomatic Passports prior to Oct '06
Clearly improvements identified during the testing period will have
an opportunity to be added.
This should cover most of the 98%.
It appears many may read the slashdot summary (which does not do justice to the story), get all riled up and jump on their keyboard. Just relax and read the article carefully and you might learn something, taking into account, however, that the news storry generally will introduce some controversy and hype to encourage readership. Next time read each article quoted in slashdot carefully and do a google search to get a more informed background.
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
Unity in Diversity
The problem with a situation like a 'multi-decade multi-generational war with "terror"' is that the longer it lasts the more it becomes the norm, the status quo; and that's extremely resistent to change.
And it will last indefinately. A "war on terror" is a war without a defined enemy, and without being able to identify your enemy you cannot possibly win. How do you define "terror"? What does the enemy look like? What flag do they fly? Where do they live? In reality nobody knows, because "terror" is a mental state of panic, a reaction to something "terrible". How can you fight an abstract concept with laser guided weapons?
In spite of the futility of this pursuit, Mr Bush said he would accept nothing less than "complete victory" in the war on terror, which he described as the first great war of the 21st century.
I'm starting to get a little panicky myself...
Caution: May contain nuts.
If you're travelling overseas currently your passport may be a big target (Going rate in South America may be $5000). Once one has your passport it may be compromised (bar codes can be fooled) letting criminals, drug smugglers, terrorists or any type of illegals into the U.S. This guarantees that the chip and the Passport must agree and essentially dries up the market for illegal passports, taking you hostage (or even killing you for your passport). See any benefits there?
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
A quick 8 - 15 second trip to my microwave! Aren't countermeasures great?
Beware the fury of a patient man
- John Dryden
So what happens if say, I leave my passport in the microwave, or decide to use it as an impact mat when flattening bottle caps with a hammer - and miss, hitting (disabling) the RFID chip? Am I arrested for destruction of a federal document? The paper's there, the chip just doesn't work.
I don't know about you, but all my RFID devices keep getting accidentally microwaved or damaged from blunt trauma...
moox. for a new generation.
is that it's "receive", not "recieve". Here's one in the eye for illiteracy across the world, and especially for Slashdot Editors!
To quote your USDoS link, it seems clear to me the State Department CLEARLY STATES it"s NOT RFID. I think the State Department is very clear when they state:-
"The technology is not the same as the vicinity chip RFID technology used for inventory tracking of items from distances at retail stores and warehouses. It will not permit ``tracking'' of individuals."
Why do you say they don't say clearly it's NOT RFID?
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
Think of the benefits to terrorists.
Bombs connected to RFID scanners.
They'll be able to "precision bomb" the targets they're aiming for...
As a person who might conceivably be mistaken for an American, I'm all for this.
Actually this goes in the direction of doing away with papers, reducunbg lines at immigrationa and airports and doing away with lenthy VISA processes with a digital chip - not a RFID. Iyt takes away from the power of immigration officials as the power is now in you and your control of your passport. Power to the people is what it's all about! And not being so carefree that anyone can steal your passport and commpromise identity, imigration, crime etc.
What's past is NOT ALWAYS prologue for the future!
The Australian version, which was released this week, and I assume is technically identical to the US one (as the Australians authorities did testing at LA airport), is not rfid.
The chip is designed to release its information when the traditional Machine Readable Zone (the text that is not quite a barcode but in easy OCR font) is scanned on the inside of the front cover.
More info is here, together with HI-RES picture of the centre pages that contain the chip.
It's frat boys like George W. Bush.
This is rumor control with the facts:
The ICAO ePassport specification simply describes a card based on ISO 14443-B. The ePassport data is stored in specific DF/EFs, which is the smartcard equivalent of directories and files. The passport data stored in these files is rougly the same data as printed in the passport, only the image is at a higher resolution (JPEG). All this data is digitally signed so that changing of the data can be detected. The signing keys for this are outside of the ePassport, say in some secure government facility. The verification keys are exchanged just like the knowledge about detecting fraudulent paper passports is exchanged.
Now, in its minimal configuration, access to the data via ISO 14443-B is not protected in any way. This is the configuration that the US government chose earlier, I do not know whether due to the public pressure this changed. Effectively this means that anyone that gets physically (0.5m approx) near a passport can actively read it out with a standard reader and good experts can eavesdrop on the communication from 10+ meters (contrary to popular belief, this is not limited to 0.5m).
Most of Europe, Japan and other countries that consider this to be an unacceptable privacy risk, have chosen to implement the ICAO option called "Basic Access Control". It requires a reader to authenticate to the card before it is allowed to read the data. This authentication requires the reader to hash parts of the data physically printed on the passport and use that as the authentication key. With this authentication key, a session key is agreed on and this protects the further communication over the air.
Because the data leading to the key potentially has to be entered manually (when OCR fails) and it contains many low entropy parts (name, date of birth etc), the key actually has a limited keyspace, that depending on specific implementations of the passport numbering (one of the input parameters of the hash) is brute forcable for non-governments or not. That said, BAC is a reasonable protection mechanism that certainly makes attacking these cards much, much more expensive then just using an off the shelf card reader and a PDA.
More information on the protocols is available at ICAO:
http://www.icao.int/mrtd/Home/Index.cfm
I was an I-9 admin for HP years ago so I can answer that.
To work in the US you must prove your identity and employment eligibility. While a document like a passport proves both, the individual can provide two seperate documents instead, one proving their identitiy (they are who they say they are) and the other that they are entitled to work in the US. Lacking a driver's license the person can use a state ID card or a voter registration card or even a school report card along with a social security card or their birth certificate (Original or Certified/Abstract).
The list of acceptable documents is included with Form I-9 available from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services websiteright here
This is a gripe to the editors. I know I'm going to get modded down for this, but I posted this LAST DECEMBER: 2004-12-10 03:04:27 RFID Mandated in US Passports (Politics,Privacy) (rejected)
One Hundred and seventy two dollars. Too expensive, and miles from worlds best practice, especially when when you figure in the $220 ticket tax between USA and Sydney. As for 'e-passports' - ring em up and report them defective - they do not connect to the internet in any way,shape or form. Marketing droids. $-passport more like it.
Disguise not necessary. I got arrested as a white European for failing to show my identity card to a supermarket checkout girl.
tinfoil won't stop passive snooping: when someone listen to the "conversation" between your passport and an official passport reader
Nobody else will have thought of this!
No testing will have been done!
Of all the people on the planet, only you will be aware of these issues!
Thank goodness you brought it up!
The government must be informed - at once!
My Journal
Will the chips be able to store cookies? Cookies could be useful in cetian situations, for example tagging trespassers or people assembling unlawfully. A high-powered signal would go straight through a Faraday Cage. Probably applies more to Driver Licenses.
The problem now is that the nature of the "war" is different. It is not clearly defined, with an easily defined end-point.
I'm not sure I agree with that. As an old fart who grew up doing the cold war I see many parallels. The cold war ended when we saw peaceful democratic institutions arise from the former soviet bloc (Yugoslavia one exception of course). Perhaps the war on terror will have a similar end when peaceful democratic institutions arise in countries that directly supported terrorism (Iran, Syria) or tacitly (Saudi Arabia).
The problem with a situation like a 'multi-decade multi-generational war with "terror"' is that the longer it lasts the more it becomes the norm, the status quo; and that's extremely resistent to change.
The cold war paranoia and hatred was the norm, it quickly evaporated with the threat and we all turned our attention to what to do with the "peace dividend."
And it will last indefinately. A "war on terror" is a war without a defined enemy, and without being able to identify your enemy you cannot possibly win. How do you define "terror"? What does the enemy look like? What flag do they fly? Where do they live?
The cold war was also a war on a philosophy, communism. The enemy was not only the nations of the soviet bloc but insurgents and terrorists trying to spark revolution. Sound familiar? If while prosecuting the war on terror we can greatly reduce state sponsorship (Iran, Syria), reduce non-governmental sponsorship (Saudi Arabia), support an open media (Al Jazeera may not be very open minded in the western sense but it is a first step), support moderate governments and emerging democracies (again, not necessary in the western sense) to demonstrate an alternative, support economic development so individuals believe the alternative is viable, etc. Again, there are many parallels to cold war. Philosophies are defeated with alternative philosophies, however the alternative philosophies may need nurturing and protection until they take hold. There will always been some fanatic in a cave, the goal is to marginal such cases, isolate them and reduce their capacity to cause damage.
immigration holding cell for a week the next time I travel international. And oh yeh why would a terrorist need a scanner to find outI was an American. All they would have to do is look at me. What are they going to do blow me up? Hold me, a nobody American, for ransom? Some of you people are too paranoid about the silliest things.
I was being facetious. Personally I don't have anything to hide. If they want to monitor where I go. What do I care. Oh they have found out I spend a lot of time in the baby food isle and so they send me coupons for diapers. What's the big deal. Oh I bought something in a porn shop and now my wife will find out because they send me ads for xxx movies. That's not RFIDs fault and it shouldn't be held responsible for peoples' indescresions.
Maybe a little more big brother watching might keep a few more people honest. An aluminum foil sandwich will keep your passport safe from illicit scanning. I'm sure the rfid scan will eventually be coupled with some other biometric scan either fingerprint or iris or retinal. Ultimately it makes crime more difficult. Maybe some super crime syndicate will outwit the newest features, but the average lowlife with no access to high tech won't be able to start his own jihad on my flight In the event government becomes abusive over a period of time you can always write your congressman or woman and when enough people write, laws get changed. It happens all the time. The ACLU and many other watchdog agencies love to stand up for human rights. I have a life to live and I'd like it to be a little safer from fanatics, religious or otherwise.
you're meandering. Do I need the right to move around annomously. Not particularly. Do I want to give it up. Not for nothing but if the powers that be think it will make it a little easier to get through immigration lines. It makes sense to me. I hate standing on lines. As for arbitrary government, like I said there are a lot of watchdog agencies and people like you and when they and you cumulatively cry loud enough, laws get changed. Remember this is still a democracy where laws get changed and presidents and their advisors can be impeached without bloodshead if the checks and balances get to heavy on one side.
As for it being more likely to get hit by a car than a terrorist you are right. However being hit by a car was likely an accident unless the driver was DUI and not the actions of a fanatic with intent to commit murder. There is a difference. Not to the dead one of course.
I did give up the right "not to wear a seat belt" so I would be less likely to die in a car accident. Do you still cling to that right, not to wear a seat belt because you feel freer?
Terrorism is insidiousa. There are a whole bunch of people sitting out there trying to think of ways to get at us. Some ways are easier than others. Hard targets vs soft targets. Any action we can take to deter them from a particular course of action is a benefit for which I am willing to give up rights that I don't use. You mention the cause of terrorism and that is a whole nother story which we can get into if you want but that has nothing to do with RFIDs on passports.
There are a number of religious fanatics that have started this terorist war for religious reasons. They think the entire world should be Islamic at whatever cost. It has been picked up by overtrodden people not so religious throughout the world who have axes to grind. Some got up on the wrong side of the bed and others had their sister killed in a crossfire with Americn soldiers. Others are just hungry and can't afford a Big Mac and got kicked out of MacDonalds because they were begging for food for their family. Others just want power for the sake of power. Without power their lives feel meaningless.
I thought we agreed that the RFID chips are just to get people through the line faster. Or at least that is what you said in an earlier response. I believe you said more or less that the loss of security by using the RFID chips just to reduce waiting time was not worth it. I never said anything aout RFID chips improving the security of the passport. I did say more or less that RFID plus other biometric scans would increase the likelihood that our planes would be safer at least internationally until such time as they may institute a US identity card.
As far as erosion of freedoms that you speak of, they are all hypothetical. They haven't happened yet. I definately think that someone who verbally supports terrorism places themselves outside of normal protections of first amendment rights. Terrorist don't play by any rules and I don't see that anyone who vocalizes support for them should be protected. Terrorists choose to work outside the law and outside the political process. As such they and all their supporters are fair game as far as I am concerned. The only people who need worry are those that support terrorists. Terrorists can't survive without the support of sympathizers. Catching a sympathizer means one less person to support a terrorist.
With regards your a-d statements above I agree with them until such time as terrorist attacks stop. I think bottom line advice for anyone operating on the fringe of any activity associated with terrorism, who is doing it because they choose to exercise what they feel are their inalienable rights, think again and put as much distance as possible between themslves and any such activity because they are playing with fire and if they get burned they knew better. Those who supported terrorist statements before they were criminalized are just as guilty as far as I am concerned.
We have had these laws in place you say since 1996...well I have yet to see cameras in my car to make dure my seat belt is used. As far as random sobriety tests, I wish there was a quicker way to do it so I wouldn't have to wait on line so long. Maybe an implanted RFID chip that measures sobriety levels and then makes that info available at checkpoints to scanners. In fact i think I read of a car that has a built in tester. It should transmit that info for the police. People shouldn't have the inalienable rights to hurt other people through their own misguided sense of self righteousness.
I am glad you acknowledge that the incidents you speak of are accidents. As far as Padilla is concerned...clearly he was an enemy combatant, whether caught in the act or by association. If he isa supposed to be an example of the failure or potential failure of our sysem, I don't see it. Due process may have been eroded but the smell test definately applies. At the very best for Padilla he was a merc if not directly loyal to Al Qaeda for religious reason he was a paid gun. Why else are you running around in Afghanistan. I don't think he was a tourist or a student of foreign affairs. Guilt by association at the very least.
As for the banning of speach driving it underground, you are right however if a terrorist has no idea who believes in his cause he will not know where to turn to seek aid and is more likely to be caught. Denying terrorists safe harbor is the intent.
Secret search warrants don't bother me because I don't have anything to hide. Only people with something to hide need be afraid. I think there were legal immigrants that got caught up in the dragnet for illegals and while they may have been held for some months eventually they got out. The system may not be perfect but I believe it makes the work of terrorists a little more difficult.
I've een searched at the airport for no reason. I don't like it but that is one of the prices of safety. Is it at times rediculous? Yes. Not everything is perfect.
As far as your conversation with the Jewish woman...It's unfortunate but true that religion has been the cause of almost all major conflicts throughout human history. The issues in the middle east go back 2000 years ago as to who gets the Arab lands...the son or half son of Abraham. It was an event totally botched by issues of greed, power and ego among the players at the time. God promised that it would be Isaac's descendants who would inherit the land given to Abraham. (Genesis 13:14-18, 15:18-21, 28:13-14). Ishmael had no part in the inheritance and promise given to Isaac through Abraham even though he was the son for 13 years before being banished.
I think first amendmnt liberty has its time and place and protecting terrorists is not one of them.
Get a Conch Republic passport. That's right, Key West issues passports. Google it.
There's an old saying that says pretty much whatever you want it to.
Yes I would give the government as much reign as they have today. All your concerns about reduced freedoms are hypothetical, what ifs and conjectures. There have been a few screwups...Abu Graib and I'm sure you could name others, but all in all they have a pretty good record. Mistakes are unavoidable. Padilla didn't denie in his defense that he was not an enemy combatant. They tried to get him off for other reasons. I am behind our law enforcement all the way.
I might be inclined to limit airline access to martial artists and boxers if they recently changed their name to Mohammad.
Look, the state department and all the other government agencies are on our side when it comes to terrorism. Sure there may be a few bad apples but by and large I respect our law enforcement and anything that will make their job easier I'm for. Yes I heard that a personal attack on someone's person might be deemed terrorism but the fact is that people are being killed left and right in this country and I haven't heard terrorism as a motive in any of them. I think you are worrying for nothing. The government hasn't shown any kind of propensity for the acts that you are so worried about. It's not a dictatorship. Laws can alway be changed back. When law enforcement gets overzelous and gets caught they pay the penalty and we have seen that happen time and again.
The world needs a few idealists like you. It also needs a few realists like me. Padilla is guilty or we would have heard more about his innocence and his wife would be on TV praying for him and all the other things that come to light when someone is illegally condemned. Our system isn't perfect. They are still letting people out of prison who had fair trials 30 years ago and were found guilty and now they are found innocent.
I was being facetious again when I said boxers named Mohammed. However I do believe in some degree of profiling.
Bush is no favorite of mine but you are beginning to exaggerate things trying to find additional support for your argument (not that we are arguing).
While the writers of the constitution did their best they were still only human beings doing the best they could. I don't think any of them considered that someone being set free on a technicality could set off a dirty bomb all by themselves killing many tens of thousands and doing trillions in damage and making a great city uninhabitable for decades. If the closest comparison you can find of a wrongdoing similar to Padilla occurred 150 years ago, I'd say I'll rest my case.
I can only say that when laws are passed that are irreversible, that is when we will be in trouble. Until then every power given to the president can be taken away and that goes for him, his vp, speaker of the house and on down. For the Congress & Senate to pass irreversible laws or for the Pres to ask for irreversible laws will never happen. Neither the Pres or the houses would allow the other to amass such power. For the Pres in collusion with the houses agree to amass all irreversible power is ludicrous. I really don't think you have anything to worry about. A situation may go sour for a few years (no morer than 2 or 3) but it will ultimately be reversed.
"With high federal offices being given to the wives, sons and daughters of senior members of the Bush administration, the Hearst Corporation executives that publish Popular Mechanics magazine probably didn't worry about the ethical considerations of hiring a cousin of Michael Chertoff, a former Assistant Attorney General and the new Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), as senior researcher."
l 6 163300114
Is it not interesting that the Hearst Corporation http://www.cjr.org/tools/owners/hearst.asp thinks a person from the Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security is better suited to tell the truth than a real, educated journalist? (It is a good idea to visit cjr and educate yourself on what other media stations are likely only to publish what SDHS approves, like "National Geographic":
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/pentagon2/
Is it not also interesting that their article that is supposed to debulk the truth, read page 6 in that so-called "facst" article, in no way what so ever proves that a plane hit anywhere near the Pentagon, only provdes loose slander?
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/pentagon1/
Is it not nice to know that most of the free world view it as a fact that the fires in the Pentagon were started by arson?
Is it not comforting to know that most of the, in reality, free world now - like 63% of Canada - now view it as a FACT proven beyond all doubt that WTF 1, 2 and 7 were destroyed by controlled demolition?
http://www.terrorize.dk/911/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2005/10/326074.htm
http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=2005102
9/11: Never forget it was a false-flag operation
which country are we talking about where this kind of thing happens? is this somewhere you visit regularly? interested to know which countries you visit where this kind of thing is likely to happen.....