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Search for Copernicus Over

Posted by CowboyNeal on from the lost-and-found dept.

blamanj writes "Nikolaus Kopernik, aka Copernicus, father of modern heliocentric theory, was buried in Frombork Cathedral (Poland) after he died in 1543. However, the cathedral's tombs were a mess, and it was unclear exactly where he was. Archaeologists now believe they've found his remains, and are planning to do DNA testing to verify. The search began in 2004."

46 of 188 comments (clear)

  1. will they dig up the bones? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    and auction them off on Ebay?

    1. Re:will they dig up the bones? by Phroggy · · Score: 3, Informative

      and auction them off on Ebay?

      That's actually against eBay's policy.

      --
      $x='S24;r)>63/* h@<5+oZ)32"5cz';$me='phroggy'x$];
      $x=~y+ -xz+\0-Tx+;print$_^chop$me for split'',$x;
  2. check out that portrait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Do you get the impression that old Kopernick was the sort of chap that would run down the street screaming pretty much anything, and maybe he got the heliocentric theory thing right just by coincidence?

    "Apples will set your house on fire!"

    "Birds and dogs mate and give birth to lizards!"

    "By rubbing together two sticks, I created cheese!"

    "The Earth revolves around the sun!"

    "Bannanas are SATAN!!! SATAN!!!"

    "Abolish underwear!!!"

    1. Re:check out that portrait by Vo0k · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Nope. He did a lot of research in order to present the theory. Being a priest, he wasn't in such deep shit as Galileo or Giordano Bruno, but still he was smart enough to have his finding published after he died :)

      --
      Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
    2. Re:check out that portrait by cbv · · Score: 2, Informative

      He did a lot of research in order to present the theory.

      That is only half of the truth. He actually was kind of a copy cat, citing from Sphaera mundi (among others) written by Johannes de Sacrobosco, and presenting the ideas as his own.

      One of the effects of his theft-of-thoughts is the unfortunately still common opinion that people during the so-called Dark Ages believed that Earth was flat -- they did not (the notable exception being Kosmas Indikopleustes, Laktantius and Severianus of Gabala).

    3. Re:check out that portrait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Umm. Not quite.

      You should not apply current views of knowledge to earlier times when the entire paradigm wa different. Nowadays we prize independent and inovative thinking - as the Greeks did around 500 BC. During the Middle Ages and up to the Renaissance, however, this was not the case. All human knowledge was believed to have already been revealed, either in the Bible or the 'wisdom of ancients', and the job of an intellectual was to extract this knowledge.

      So prior authority was not only important - it was critical. You HAD to cite such authority for your ideas, otherwise they could not be accepted. Producing your own ideas with no authoritative backing was seen as a sin similar to fabricating your base data nowadays. Intellectual giants like Roger Bacon fought against this approach in favour of the experimental method, but it was not really overcome until the 1700s. This is why all writings of this period cite earlier authority.

      School histories of Galileo and others are always done in complete ignorance of the mediaeval mindset, and end up portraying all his opponents as a set of unthinking morons - they were most decidedly not. However, I suppose simple ideas make better television!

    4. Re:check out that portrait by Digz · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually, Copernicus was encouraged by the Church. Galileo's fault was that he insisted on calling those people who didn't accept his theory (purported to be fact, even though he could not prove it) morons - including the Pope. During his trial, it was repeatedly stated that the charges would be dropped if he could provide proof for his theory - but he could not. The Church also offered a middle ground - accepting heliocentrism as a hypothesis - even superior to the geocentric one - until more proof was forthcoming.

      http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologet ics/ap0138.html
      http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Issues/Gal ileoAffair.html

      Can we let this myth die?

      --
      SYS 64738
    5. Re:check out that portrait by m0nstr42 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not that I want to be skeptical, or claim to know the real story, but do you have any non-catholic sources for that information?

      --
      m0nstr42.blogspot.com
    6. Re:check out that portrait by dylan_- · · Score: 2, Informative
      Not that I want to be skeptical, or claim to know the real story, but do you have any non-catholic sources for that information?
      There's one here though I think it's a bit harsh on Galileo....the Catholic ones are kinder! It's a much more interesting story than the simplistic myth, I think. With all the factions that had a stake in the matter, it would make a fascinating documentary.
      --
      Igor Presnyakov stole my hat
    7. Re:check out that portrait by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      No. Rewriting history and falsifying facts to make the church's past positions somehow seem more tenable is par for the course a la Vatican (and they sure ain't the only ones). This is not a myth. What you are stating as fact is the myth. Pretending that Galileo was at fault for his punishment by the Church is about the biggest fraud you can perpetrate. Getting rated up on Slashdot for perpetrating this fraud demonstrates that too many would like to falsely believe in the infallibility of a higher authority made up only of men. Stop it.

    8. Re:check out that portrait by anonymo · · Score: 2, Informative

      What you wrote is utterly BS:

      "Copernicus finished his work De Orbium colestium Revolutionibus in 1530, and dedicated it to the pope; but it was not published till 1543, by Osiander of Nürnberg, to whom he had given the manuscript, and who announced the discovery in the preface as a mere hypothesis. He received a copy on his death-bed at Frauenburg on the borders of Prussia and Poland.
      Source: http://www.calvarydeltona.org/modules/phpbible/tex ts/schaff-hcc8.xml?meid=20&POSTNUKESID=bbba760b5a6 8cca7df02e7322e1431f8

      So it was Galileo Galilei (1564-1642) who accepted Copernian view - and by echancing and using a brand new (not patented) optical device (a telescope) he saw that another object in the sky (Jupiter) has moons.
      And not the other way around
      It is a pity that no-one checks the facts, just accepting your falsfified utterly garbage!

      Plz, moderate down this liar!

    9. Re:check out that portrait by anonymo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Strange that no-one stands up against with name against these religious liars!
      In 9th of July 1595 Johannes Kepler inscribed a geometric solid construction of universe.
      Within a few months of the publication of Kepler's discovery, grounded on Copernicus work published on his death-bed, Galileo turned his telescope to the heavens, discovering 4 moons of Jupiter and the phases of Venus similar to the Moons. This was the very first optical evidence of the rightess of the heliocentric view.
      Copernicus, Kepler and Galilei were banned on different levels by the Holy See.
      1. Copernicus published his work when ready to die - he know well that publishing earlier would be a death penalty. (Like Bruno Giardano got it, burned alive on the Flower Market in Rome a bit later)
      2. Kepler published the physical solution to Copernicus theory. He was excommunicated even if he was a high priest.
      3 Galilei was forced by the Inquisition to house arrest.

      All these works were on the Catholic Church's "Index of banned books" (Index Librorum Prohibitorum) - valid in revised editions until 1966.

      Stating it did not happened is just a simple lie.
      Even Vatican addmitted indirectly their fault sometimes between 1994-7 by lifting the Latæ Sententiæ (excommunication) of Kepler.

      A short resume of Copernicus, Kepler, Galileo et.al:
      http://www.dartfordgrammar.kent.sch.uk/Faculties/S cience/Phys/astronomers.htm

    10. Re:check out that portrait by anonymo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "They aren't saying it didn't happen. They're saying that the modern interpretation of its significance is wrong. The he church provided unprecedented support for scientific study"
      Well, burnig Giordano Bruno alive on the Flower Market in Rome on February 17 1600 was quite a signal just shut up when the inquisition want to chat with you. Of course, Galileo Galilei just shut up because he preferred to live. In secret he still continued his work under the surveilance of the Inquisition. Next statement will be that no-one was killed or tortured by the Inquisition. The Catholic (and the growing Protestantic movement too) was terrorizing people like the Gestapo or KGB in modern times.
      So stating that the Church supported science is just a lie, without any substance! Just look at the list of Index librorum prohibitorum latest and last revision.
      What I see now is a religious movement similar to the Stalinistic period falsifiyng or denying facts that do not fit the dominating powers.

      "Galileo was one of a few isolated incidents"
      C'mon you must be kidding! It's like saying that the Gestapo or KGB did not murdered millions of people because there's so few evidence of it!
      Magellan has showed that the world is a globe in 1519 by taking a trip around the word so the Church kept a bit lesser agressive attitude. But calling it science-friendly is just falsifying the truth.

      "Lissl claims that "Copernicus' De Revolutionibus Orbium had been in print for nearly seventy years before the Church placed any restrictions on its teachings" and notes "how easy it had been for Galileo to obtain the Church's permission"
      Well Magellan has proved that the Earth is a globe in 1951 so it made a slightly difficult to withhold that the Earth is flat.
      And I actually red the transcriptions of Galilei's private letters and it was not easy at all to get published even if he made some efforts so avoid the Inquisition's radar. Lissl just denies the actual documents from that era like some others denying the holocaust.

      "This point is most interesting here and now because of the whole controversy between evolutionists and creationists. All the evolutionists I know (well, except maybe one) think that a religious person must automatically oppose scientific study,"
      Well, I worked very close to a Catholic geophysician, and we talked a lot privately too. He used the Bible as a human filter of God's words, literally and not word-by-word. He was very clever, and a very nice person. But with this abstraction of the Bible he had no problem to accept any scientific observations, and I'm rather sure that many religious scientists works the same way.
      Just as creationists (theists) are not the same kind neither are evolutionists (mostly but not all ateists). The problem is that the religious fanatics are growing in numbers and getting louder and stating the Bible has to be red word-by-word which is absurd.

      "American funding mechanisms in the scientific establishment are very much like the Catholic church all those years ago. "
      Well, I'm rather confident that if the Soviet did not sent rockets into space starting back in the 50's, space travells (by man or with robots) would be prohibited just like research on "ethical grounds" like in some biological fields (stem-cell research). http://www.cnn.com/2001/ALLPOLITICS/07/31/cloning. bush/
      YES, I suppose, you will reply that it's on ethical not scientific grounds, but it's just BS: there are a lot of experiments done in blind or double blind tests were people suffer and probably dies for the results.

      Actually, I'm European, but I visited the USA several times and talked to yankee scientists and found that there's just as much pressure to avoid "delicate" areas as in the Soviet were about human rights. I have'nt been in the Soviet but met several Soviet researchers too.
      As a rather famous European immigrant scientist lived in the USA sade to me "say that you're Jewish, or Mu

    11. Re:check out that portrait by anonymo · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Citing the Wikipedia at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sphaera_Mundi
      "Tractatus de sphaera, or simply De sphaera) is a medieval astronomy textbook written by Johannes de Sacrobosco c. 1230. Based heavily on Ptolemy's Almagest"
      Of course this work was important: it was the manual to track the celestial objects for astrological junk. But that work was no way the origin of Copernicus ideas! He did not stole anything from it, in opposite, he was have to think in new ways than the Ptolemy way.

      Just as Einstein found a better description in his relativity theori for the Newtownian physics and he had other works he used it do not mean that he made a very unique work.

      Stating that Copernicus stole his ideas from a geocentric work is just absurd! He circulated the manuscript of his work in 1514. Five years later Magellan had proved that the Earth is a globe and that fact must have been something to think about! http://www.phy.hr/~dpaar/fizicari/xcopern.html
      Denying his archievement is falsifying history!

  3. He looks a bit like.... by teewurstmann · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... James Cromwell, the actor from the movie "Babe", you know, the one with the talking pig... I bet Copernicus couldn't understand or train pigs, but he sure understood that the earth isn't the center of the universe.

    --
    Get a free Video iPod!
  4. Why should we care? by gowen · · Score: 5, Funny

    The world doesn't revolve around Copernicus, you know...

    --
    Athletic Scholarships to universities make as much sense as academic scholarships to sports teams.
    1. Re:Why should we care? by Deanalator · · Score: 4, Funny

      Well, if we want to make an all-star physicist basketball team, we don't want to clone the wrong guy now do we?

    2. Re:Why should we care? by JesterXXV · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There should be a "-1 (Didn't get the joke)" moderation for comments like this.

      --
      Yo mama so fake, she failed the Turing Test.
  5. DNA Testing... by MrFlannel · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Yes, well, we've got these bones. And we're going to test them to make sure they match with the known DNA sequence of Copernicus.

    Alright, so, they track down known relatives... problem is, 500 years? Thats what... 25 generations?
    "Yes, this man is Copernicus's Great-great-great-....-great-grandson. We can see they both have green eyes. This woman is his great-great-...-great-granddaughter, twice removed. We can see by this DNA that they're both left handed. So, of course, these must be is bones!"

    Not to mention he didn't have any kids of his own. Which just quarters the probabiliy of similarities.

    Or did I miss something? Anyone know how accurate this will actually be?

    --
    Clones are people two.
    1. Re:DNA Testing... by gxv · · Score: 3, Informative

      They want to compare Copernicus DNA with the DNA of his uncle Lukasz Watzenrode, bishop of Warmia. But first they have to find his grave. There is a catch though. They dont know where is his grave yet...

    2. Re:DNA Testing... by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Anyone know how accurate this will actually be?

      Seeing that they claim to be able to extract DNA from these bones, I imagine they could raid the burial sites of his known relatives of the day, and their descendants, right up to the present day.

      That way you would get a trail of DNA from the past to the present, which would make matching easier.

      --
      http://michaelsmith.id.au
    3. Re:DNA Testing... by Oxen · · Score: 5, Informative

      I haven't read the article, nor am I at all informed as to the specifics of this case. However, they may be able to find a relative with the same mitochondrial DNA or the same Y-chromosome as Copernicus. Both of these pass unchanged from generation to generation.

      A person only inherits mitochondrial DNA from his mother. Using this principle, if we know someone who has descended entirely maternally from a common female ancestor of both him and Copernicus, we can check to see if it is Copernicus.

      The same thing goes for Y-chromosomes and men. This is done surprisingly frequently with historical figures. It was done with the Thomas Jefferson/Slave thing and also with Anastasia Romanov. There is a caveat, however. You cannot distinguish between relatives, so even if it tests positive, it could be Copernicus's brother or another relative in the same genetic umbrella.

      -Mark

      --
      First you animate. Then you SUSPEND!!!
    4. Re:DNA Testing... by Max+Nugget · · Score: 4, Informative

      >> Yes, well, we've got these bones. And we're going to test them to make sure they match with the known DNA sequence of Copernicus.

      From TFA:

      "The grave was in bad condition and not all remains were found, Gassowski said, adding that his team will try to find relatives of Copernicus to do more accurate DNA identification."

      I imagine they're talking about finding the graves of his dead relatives, not living descendants. If you find a skeleton that you have independent reasons to believe is some particular relative of his, and the DNA from that skeleton happens to corroborate that relationship when compared to the "Copernicus" DNA, you've increased the accuracy of the Copernicus skull substantially, because the chances of the relative being misidentified AND happening to have the correct DNA relationship with the suspected Copernicus DNA is miniscule, so long as the evidence leading you to the relative's remains was unrelated to the evidence that pointed you to Copernicus' remains, and provided the remains aren't buried, for example, right next to his (if they are then you've got nothing because any group of people buried together are likely to be related).

      And, not from TFA (from me):

      They may also be able to examine the DNA for certain genetic features that match up with aesthetic and non-aesthetic traits that are historically known about him.

      I was about to say they could also compare the DNA attributes with the aesthetic attributes of the skull, but then I slapped myself in the head for not realizing it would be self-referential since that's where the DNA came from. =)

  6. Comments and Documentation by GodOfCode · · Score: 5, Funny

    This shows us how important it is to properly comment and document the code we write!

  7. He must still be alive! by stirz · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I've seen two photos of the reconstructed head over at German "Spiegel online" and I the first thing that came to my mind was: "That's James Cromwell". Just compare some photos on your own. The similarity is really amazing:-)

    Regards,
    Stirz

  8. Finally! by nihilogos · · Score: 4, Funny

    I'm sure we'll all sleep better tonight.

    --
    :wq
  9. This just in... by aussie_a · · Score: 4, Funny

    the search for people who care has now begun.

  10. Re:First Prime Factorization Post by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Yeah but the search started in 2*2*3*167

  11. Wanted Dead or Alive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    This man has been accused of corrupting the youth by claiming the Sun is at the centre of the Universe and by instigating revolutions. Considered extremely dangerous. If you've seen this man, please call your local law enforcement or scientist.

  12. Damned smartass historians. by Vo0k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I'm Pole, and obviously we had more focus on Copernicus in our schools than the US kids (not to mention our schools serve about thrice the amount of knowledge...)
    So we were taught the life and findings of Copernicus, and as for his death, we were informed that his corpse lies in the Frombork Cathedral.
    Now I wonder if any kid on a visit to Frombork asked the teacher to see Copernicus' tomb, what would they do? "ups... well, we KNOW he is in the cathedral... somewhere..."

    --
    Anagram("United States of America") == "Dine out, taste a Mac, fries"
  13. It is now official - Astronomy is Dying by bugg · · Score: 2, Funny
    One more crippling bombshell hit the already beleaguered astronomy community when slashdot confirmed that Copernicus, in fact, is dead.

    You don't have to be a Galileo to predict astronomy's future. The hand writing is on the wall: Astronomy faces a bleak future. In fact there won't be any future at all for astronomy because Astronomy is Dying.

    Astronomers are the most endangered of them all, with over 90% of all great astronomers dead. There can no longer be any doubt: Astronomy is Dying.

    Let's keep to the facts and look at the numbers.

    --
    -bugg
  14. As the old verse says by Flying+pig · · Score: 4, Interesting
    (Apologies for spelling errors this is from memory)

    Der Himmel nicht die Erde umgeht
    Wie die Gelehrten meynen

    Muss jeden Mann sein Wurm gewiss
    Kopernikus des seinen

    (roughly The heavens do not go round the Earth as the learned held. Every man will get eaten by worms, even Copernicus)

    --
    Pining for the fjords
  15. I happen to live in Via Copernico, in Milan Italy. by spamhog · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...and Leopold von Sacher-Masoch
    grew up on Copernicus Street in Lvov,
    which I think was part of Austria-Hungary at the time.

    We have a 6-m wide paraboloid for space comms right atop the condo here.

    Time to plan a street party.

    Who do I write to if I want to borrow a relic for the occasion?

    A phalanx or a pair of teeth would do fine.

  16. Plus ca change by FishandChips · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These days they mess up old bones in old cathedrals in order to put somewhere on the map and provide an attraction for thousands of credulous visitors from all over the world.

    In the Middle Ages they messed up old bones in old cathedrals in order to put somewhere on the map and provide an attraction for thousands of credulous vistors from all over the world.

    Let the old guy rest in peace. Why should he want a thousand cheap busts and other trinkets knocked out in his name in the local tourist shops? Modern scientists: the religious relic traders of yesterday had nothing on them.

    --
    Las qué passoun
    tournoun pas maï
  17. Intelligent Falling by stud9920 · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you agree with heliocentrism, you have to agree to Kepler's law, and to explain them you have to approve the THEORY of gravitation, which is bullshit. Everyone knows the one true model is Intelligent Falling.

  18. State of the tombs by base_chakra · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... the cathedral's tombs were a mess

    I can vouch for this. Dirt everywhere! It was appalling.

  19. Copernicus, dead at 532 by Ph33r+th3+g(O)at · · Score: 4, Funny

    I just heard some sad news on talk radio today. Famed astronomer and scientist Copernicus was found dead in his cathedral tomb today. There weren't any more details. I'm sure everyone in the Slashdot community will miss him - even if you didn't enjoy his work, there's no denying his contributions to popular culture. Truly an heliocentric icon.

    --
    I too have felt the cold finger of injustice.
  20. We're not in Kansas anymore by totallygeek · · Score: 2, Funny
    This man has been accused of corrupting the youth by claiming the Sun is at the centre of the Universe and by instigating revolutions. Considered extremely dangerous. If you've seen this man, please call your local law enforcement or scientist.


    I thought they would have disconnected Internet access to Kansas by now!

    --
    Click here or here.
  21. coincidence? conspiracy? by TreeHead · · Score: 2, Funny

    Copernicus ...looks strikingly similar to... Dr. Zefram Cochrane.

    --

    "If any part Linux was stolen, then Windows was the biggest heist in history."

  22. Scar by flatass · · Score: 2, Funny

    Gassowski said police forensic experts used the skull to reconstruct a face that closely resembled the features -- including a broken nose and scar above the left eye
     
    In the computer generated image, the scar is actually above his right eye.

  23. Re:First Prime Factorization Post by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny
    Sure, it's off-topic, but 867-5309 is prime.

    Somehow I doubt Tommy Tutone knew that.

  24. James Cromwell in Copernicus - The Movie by digitaldc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    http://www.nndb.com/people/144/000024072/james-cro mwell.jpg
    http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/40982000/jpg /_40982156_portrait_afp203.jpg
    Separated at birth? You decide....
    In any case it is interesting that Copernicus or Kopernik continued his studies of astronomy as a hobby and not as a profession.
    Good Copernicus quotes:

    For I am not so enamoured of my own opinions that I disregard what others may think of them.
    I shall now recall to mind that the motion of the heavenly bodies is circular, since the motion appropriate to a sphere is rotation in a circle.
    Moreover, since the sun remains stationary, whatever appears as a motion of the sun is really due rather to the motion of the earth.
    The earth also is spherical, since it presses upon its center from every direction.
    The massive bulk of the earth does indeed shrink to insignificance in comparison with the size of the heavens.
    We regard it as a certainty that the earth, enclosed between poles, is bounded by a spherical surface.
    and finally....
    To know that we know what we know, and to know that we do not know what we do not know, that is true knowledge.

    BRILLIANT!

    --
    He who knows best knows how little he knows. - Thomas Jefferson
  25. A good thing by Starker_Kull · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are an awful lot of important (meaning, we wouldn't have computers, satellites, electric power, engines, medicines, etc. without them) scientists whose graves are lost and whose names are fast fading from common memory, whilst we have untold roads, bridges, cathedrals, buildings, etc. named after fairly useless politicans, generals and actors. So, if this gives us an excuse to call attention to the man who inaugurated modern astronomy by creating a viable, heliocentric calculational system to compete with and ultimately displace the old Ptolemaic system, all the better.

  26. Future Such Searches Will Be Much Easier! by MrNiceguy_KS · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...Thanks to the announcement of Google Graveyard Search (beta)

    --
    Redundancy is good And also good.
  27. Centrist by drwho · · Score: 2, Funny

    Let me guess...did they look in the exact center of the Cathedral for is remains?

  28. Actually, Yep by Zevon+2000 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Having read both Ptolemy's Almagest (the name given to his work by future Arabic scholars, meaning "The Greatest" IIRC) and Copernicus's work, I have a LOT more respect for Ptolemy. Ptolemy built up a system of practical geometry that explained the data available. His system got very complex, but it was consistent, and he addressed far more than Coperincus did. Everything from the shape of the Earth (Sphere? Ellipsoid? Cylinder?) to the movements of the planets, to how far Alexandria was from Rome.

    Copernicus, on the other hand, just kind of said "No, the planets revolve around the sun because it's easier that way". Which is true--only he didn't even show WHY it was easier, because he didn't grok the advanced geometry and trig that goes into figuring stuff like this out. Copernicus wasn't even the first to posit that the Earth revolved around the sun (the idea is briefly addressed in Almagest), and he certainly didn't offer any convincing models--those would come with Brahe and especially Kepler. But he was connected reasonably and for some reason is celebrated by history. Sort of the Columbus of math and science.

    Two final points: 1) At the time of Copernicus, if you were actually going to use a celestial model to navigate, Ptolemy's system worked much better, because it explained what we observe. Copernicus just drew some circles and cribbed it to roughly match up with real results--he didn't do the work, didn't understand that the data showed elliptical orbits in a heliocentric model, and if you'd used a heliocentric model to navigate you'd have been lost at sea. Which is one of the main reasons the heliocentric model wasn't adopted earlier.

    2) You can construct a fully robust mathematical model of the motion of the solar system that puts Mercury at the center, or yourself, or some asteroid. It's just very complex. Think about it long enough, maybe draw some figures, and blow your mind.

    Anyway, Ptolemy should be taught after Euclid in high school geometry.

    --
    "Someone somewhere had to wear pants for the first time. The meek and indecisive do not change our world." -Montville