Austrian Town Sees the Light

pin_gween writes "The Austrian town of Rattenberg (a 10 minute walk from sunlight during the winter) plans to install a mirror on a mountain to redirect sunlight towards the town. The town was built in the winter shadow of Rat Mountain. The plan is to place heliostat mirrors to shine light in several locations around town, where villagers could 'congregate and get sunned up.' The EU is ponying up half the $2.4 million costs. The company installing the mirrors, Bartenbach Lichtlabor GmbH, is contributing $600,000, and hopes other communities will use their technology."

Comments

ob Southpark

[narkotix]

SIMPSONS DID IT!!

Re:ob Southpark

[shrewd]

actually simpsons did the complete opposite, go on mark me informative ive earned it.

Potential Problem

[SlashSquatch]

If there's a glitch in focusing, then the people get fried like ants?

Re:Potential Problem

[wulfhound]

A glass pyramid /is/ installed next to the most famous French art gallery of all, the Louvre. It serves as an entranceway and atrium roof to some of the underground part of the gallery.

Re:Potential Problem

[flyingsquid]

If there's a glitch in focusing, then the people get fried like ants?

You say that like this would be some kind of a reason not to do it.

Re:Potential Problem

[zerocool^]

And it's where the remains of Mary Magdeline are kept.

//worst book I've ever enjoyed reading. I'm so ashamed.

Re:Potential Problem

[SlashSquatch]

Also do they plan to reflect the visible or UV spectrum or both?

You know they could sunbathe all day in the visible and still be white as their sheep, not bronzed like the governor of CA.

"I've sold heliostats to Brockway, Ogdenville and North Haverbrook."

If you can't stand the heat...

[Anyd]

Doesn't this fall into the category of "don't live there?" I'm not saying it wouldn't suck to live in an area without sunlight, but to knowingly move into said area, and then use taxpayer's money (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm assuming EU money = EU taxpayer's money) to change that... in the tone of millions... just seems stupid. It just seems that our global community should spend $ on better things than trying to cram people into every possible nook and cranny on earth!

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[meringuoid]

Doesn't this fall into the category of "don't live there?"

Well, yes, probably. That said, I wonder if this might actually attract a certain type of warped tourist to the town? The City of Eternal Darkness, lit only by giant mirrors that reflect an eerie faded sunlight onto its dismal roofs... Chances are something Lovecraftian lives there.

Myself, I'd be heading up the hill to stick a giant cut-out of a bat onto one of the mirrors :-)

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[vidarh]

Not millions. $1.2 million to improve quality of life for around 400 people. In other words around $3000 per inhabitant, or far less than most of them are paying in taxes in a single year. Combined with the fact that this project serves a dual purpose of helping this town and also of growing interest for the EU based mirror manufacturer's business worldwide, and it's likely economically a good long term investment - Both promoting growth in a town that's currently in decline as well as increasing exports from the company involved and boosting taxable revenue that way.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[vidarh]

Oh, and I guess you missed the part of this town being built in the 1300s, and currently being in decline because people are moving OUT of it, not in... Most people currently living there have lived there all their lives, and now they are getting what could be a significant improvement in quality of life at a small fraction of what they've paid in taxes over those years.

So it's not about cramming people into every nook and cranny, but about maintaining and possible growing a settlement which already have an established residential area, that employ people, that have established infrastructure etc.

The likely cost to society of having these people put pressure on house prices etc. by moving elsewhere would likely easily outweigh the $1.2 million the EU is spending all by itself.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[DrSkwid]

Yeah, good job it doesn't happen anywhere else in the world

no wait,

"America's 25,000 cotton farmers received more than $3bn in subsidies last year, equivalent to 100% of the market value of cotton output. This works out at a staggering subsidy of $230 an acre."

Not that I'm defending the C.A.P.

some depressing reading :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/leaders/story/0,3604,102 0653,00.html

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[quigonn]

As I'm Austrian, it is also _my_ money, and I want it to be spent on such a project. One of my grandmothers also lives in a similar valley, and while she lives there very well, it would definitely be a quality improvement if there was a bit more sun during the winters.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[Timbotronic]

Ever been to the Austrian Alps? Think ski lifts stretching to the horizon in every direction, hot Austrian babes, great beer and 13th century villages that you ski into for lunch. It's a *nice* place!

Also, there's a good chance the residents were born there. You often can't buy real estate in those tiny villages, it's just passed down the generations. I doubt they just moved in and started whinging.

So I say let them have their mirrors. It's nowhere near as expensive (and environmentally suspect) as air conditioning Las Vegas for example.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[SerpentMage]

Absolutely! And this is why I live in Switzerland and the not the EU! Granted they might build these things in Switzerland, but at least then the Geminde has to pony up the money itself. I do know here in Switzerland when people move their first concern is where the sun rises and sets! If you happen to live on the wrong side of the hill, the house is cheap and remains cheap.

The worst part of the mirror is that it is an entire waste of money. Consider the following quote from the article.

"So Lichtlabor plans to create about a dozen "hotspots" - areas not much bigger than a front yard scattered through the town, where townspeople can gather and soak up rays. "

Now compare that comment to the comment from the beginning of the article.

"That's because sun is plentiful less than 10 minutes' walk from the town and from Rat Mountain, the 910m hill that blocks its sunlight between November and February each year."

Let's see, the EU pays 2,400,000 Euros for "hotspots", when they could walk 10 minutes to get the exact same thing! Additionally, as I live near the Alps, during the winter you are cloud covered or in the fog for most of the winter anyways.

This is an example of pork, plain and simple!

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[Mindjiver]

Well, I live in Sweden and we have more or less no sun during the winter but you don't hear me complaining about it do you? ;) If you really want this giant mirror you should spend austrian money, not polish, not brittish, not swedish.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[PhraudulentOne]

Yeah its like that darn New Orleans. I mean, people know its going to flood, right? But they move there anyway and expect tax money to help them out. And like.. New York city, you know, it can't support all those people natively. You need tax payers money to like, make sewers and stuff. Why wouldn't people just move away and poop in the bush?

Tax payers money gets spent on a LOT of useless things (primarily killing, or "defense contracts"), but improving the quality of life is generally a good thing - as long as it doesn't harm the environment in a severe way.

Perhaps these people don't have the money to move, or they simply don't want to leave their homes. A lot of people that live out in small country towns and villages get to supply big tax dollars to the huge city infrastructure that they may not agree with. They do it anyway. It's no secret that cities are not self sustaining in any way, shape, or form. The country folk have to pay for the city, AND provide for the cities. Why should they pay for all those people who want to live jammed in together in a detrimental way (environmentally)? Why does so much money get spent to foster that kind of lifestyle?

If the money is spent on making people happy, and not hurting the environment, or other people, then I say it's a good thing.

IMO.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[drsquare]

It won't even do anything for anyone's quality of life. A few 'hot spots' that will probably give less sunlight than walking ten minutes round the mountain for free.

And they wonder why people don't like paying taxes, and why people don't trust the EU to do anything other than piss money away.

Re:If you can't stand the heat...

[bill_mcgonigle]

but to knowingly move into said area, and then use taxpayer's money to change that...

If you're in the US, see also the National Flood Insurance Program. We pay people to build on coastlines and floodplains.

There are a handful of people whose homes we've made into floodplains due to misguided and they deserve to get this, but when you've got a $5M chateau going up on the beach and Bob who welds girders for a living is subsidizing that - well, we start to see the cracks in the Republic.

Sure, it's all 'self-funded' until a major event happens and they need to 'borrow' from the treasury.

There's plenty of dry land to build homes on around here but those who influence policy don't wish to live there.

Cool!

[dbolger]

During peacetime, it brings light to the people, but if war is declared - instant Archimedes Death Ray! :D

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[account_deleted]

Comment removed based on user account deletion

being an EU citizen

[myc_lykaon]

I cannot (well - I do believe) the EU is paying up for a scheme to redirect sunlight into a town that:

a) was badly positioned in the first place;

b) has existed as such for hundreds of years without blowing up, dying or otherwise falling off the edge of the planet without this winter sun;

What about EU funds for my city - it's a bit chilly in winter. Has been for the last 5000 years. Everyone there knew it was chilly in winter and it hasn't blown up or fallen off the edge of the world because of this winter chill. I think the EU should pay for some weird underground heating to recompense us for this winter horror. Oh and a massive umbrella - it tends to rain a bit here.

Other than that - 'tis a cool piece of tech.

Re:being an EU citizen

[rxmd]

What about EU funds for my city - it's a bit chilly in winter. Has been for the last 5000 years. Everyone there knew it was chilly in winter and it hasn't blown up or fallen off the edge of the world because of this winter chill. I think the EU should pay for some weird underground heating to recompense us for this winter horror.

Let me guess, you live in Helsinki? :)

Well, the EU made Finland lower their taxes on alcohol... and since Estonia has joined the EU, the import tariffs on cheap Estonian vodka have fallen, too. ("Viru Valge" at 80%, anyone?) So the EU is actually doing something for the Finns and their cold winter nights ;)

Re:being an EU citizen

[ChristW]

a) was badly positioned in the first place;

It's excellently placed... All their crops get the most sunlight, and the village is quite cool in the summer...

Re:being an EU citizen

[tcornelissen]

The EU is not paying for that town. EU doesn't care for some people in some town. They are paying so that that company has something to do. EU does care for companies, or at least for companies that have enough money to lobby/bribe EU officials.

Re:being an EU citizen

[jc42]

The EU should pay for some weird underground heating ...

Actually, that's not at all weird. Here in the US, there are a number of universities that have done this. I attended two of them. In the winter, when visitors commented on the "waste" of heated sidewalks, it was fun to explain that it was a side effect of the cost-saving heating system.

What they do is obvious: There's a big campus heating plant, with underground pipes connecting it to the other buildings. Mostly, the pipes are inside tunnels, which contain other long, skinny things like wiring of various sorts. And, for obvious reasons, the tunnels are usually built underneath sidewalks, so that the leaking heat will keep the walks clear in winter.

The only problem is that they don't put them under all the sidewalks. But in general, such central heating systems cost a lot less than separate heating systems in each building.

Too bad that people in towns generally can't implement something similar. But if they did, the cost would be called "taxes", and no matter how much less they were than per-house heating systems, people wouldn't accept them. Taxes are, you know, evil; paying twice as much to a private corporation is good.

There is technology to do similar things with light. Google for "light pipe". How practical this might be on a town level isn't obvious.

Re:earlier

[dbolger]

No, but if somebody could find a 'mirror'... ;D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

I'm Sure...

[MattLiv]

...that the mirror companies decision to pay for some of the cost will reflect well on them over time.

Don't like it? Too bad

[EtherealStrife]

"But the young folks are moving away."

Seems like the younguns catch on quick. If you don't like living there, then don't. Problem solved. Seems like they're better off than all the folks near the arctic circle, but you don't see/hear them complaining...
So once again the government/PTBs are footing the bill for people too lazy to move. *cough* New Orleans *cough* Florida *cough*

Besides, a few "lawn sized" patches of light aren't going to make the place any less bleak during the winter months...it might blind some folks looking in the wrong direction, though. Or did I miss the part where they add in some kind of diffusing lens?

The way things seem to be headed (based on TFA), just wait a few years. Give the old folks time to die off, and the younger group time to get fed up and leave. $2,400,000 saved.

Re:Don't like it? Too bad

[Vellmont]

So once again the government/PTBs are footing the bill for people too lazy to move. *cough* New Orleans *cough* Florida *cough*

The question you seem to miss in all these cases is how much does it cost everyone in terms of lost jobs, damage to the economy, etc to just move an entire city? (especially in the case of New Orleans). If it's more cost effective to rebuild, you do it. In this case if it's cheaper to put in a big mirror to bring in light, (and it actually works to get people to stay) you do it. The cost is only 2.4 million dollars, and the EU only pays half of that. With 440 people in the town that's about $2250 per person.

The question you SHOULD be asking is is this an effective strategy (cost included) to stop stagnation and economic deday in a region and promote growth, vs just letting the city die (and puttting the money somwehere else)? It seems a bit crazy to me that a few lit up spots are going to make much difference, but then again I don't live in this town.

Re:Don't like it? Too bad

[killjoe]

Since you brought New Orleans into this allow me to veer offtopic a bit.

I am a middle class guy. If I heard that a hurricane was coming my way I would lock up my house, get in my car and go to some higher ground and stay in a hotel for a week or so. While I am gone I would have a high degree of confidence that my house won't be broken into and my stuff stolen. Even if it (or if the hurricane destroyed my house) I would still be OK. I have insurance, I have money in the bank to sustain myself for a while, I have a good job, I have credit cards. I would be OK while I am waiting for the insurance process to sort itself out.

Compare my situation to that of a poor person in NO. They don't have decent jobs, they don't have credit, they don't have money saved up. Everything they own is in their house. Everything. Nothing in the bank, nothing in a 401K. No insurance. When you leave your house you leave everything you own behind. Being in a poor part the town you also have a very high risk of getting everything you own get stolen or destroyed by the storm.

It sucks to be poor. If you don't have a car, don't have money to stay in a hotel for a week waiting for the storm to pass you are not going to risk hitching a ride or taking a bus and losing everything you have. It's just too much of a risk.

So before you decide that everybody in New Orleans is too lazy to move take a moment to think about their condition.

Re:Don't like it? Too bad

[ArsenneLupin]

Do they use a diffusing lens to protect peoples' eyesight from direct sunlight?

The difference is that the sun itself is (usually) enough high up in the sky that people don't look into it accidentally, whereas these mirrors sit on a mountainside.

Moreover, the sun will only be visible in these mirrors if you are in one of the "bright spots". So, it may surprise you when driving/walking around, and entering one of these spots, while your eyes are still adjusted to the half-darkness that's everywhere else around.

I ask this half-rhetorically... perhaps there's some strange effect present, like when looking at an eclipse.

The issue with eclipses is that the brightness per area (which causes damage) of the still visible patches of the sun is the same as normal, whereas the overall brightness (which triggers protective reflexes, such as the blink reflex and the shrinking of pupil) is much less.

These won't be probably an issue with these mirrors unless they used convex mirrors...

Re:Don't like it? Too bad

[thesandtiger]

Lemme guess - you don't own a home? Don't live in the same area your parents, their parents, and their parents lived? Don't have any sense of community or history where you reside? If any of the above are true, then let me ask you this: what the fuck are you smoking, and may I please have some?

It's not as simple as "Hey, you don't like it? Move!" You're basically suggesting that people give up their history and property in order to spare ~$3,000 of THEIR OWN money per person (taxes) trying to fix a problem.

I find it really ironic that a comment modified as "insightful" suggests that, rather than spending a trivial sum, they should just let a community with roots fade into nothing.

Re:Don't like it? Too bad

[thesandtiger]

It's not a matter of smoking anything. In the U.S. (at least in my experience), all of the college-bound students try to create at least some distance between themselves and their parents, usually on the order of a three-hour drive at least. Many just move across the country.

What relevance does this have to the topic at hand? I certainly won't debate that many people in the US choose to move away from their families when they go to college. I also wouldn't debate that many people prefer the taste of a flame broiled Whopper to a Big Mac. But so what?

Just because your morality has such a strong sense of community (which I could easily rephrase in more disparaging terms---try, perhaps, "tying down young people to the same backward lives as their parents"), that doesn't mean it should be the one to receive government funding. Lemme repeat: it is not the government's job to enforce your morality.

I could give a fuck if the young people move or stay. What I am talking about is people saying "You don't like where you live? Then move! Give up your property and your history and move!" and how that attitude is missing a rather large point.

That point being this:

3,000 people would be abandoning their land and homes if they "just moved." Who would buy thier land and homes? Nobody. So now you have 3,000 people in the EU who have given up the vast majority of their assets. Do you seriously think that economic fallout from 3,000 people suddenly being broke is going to be less, long term, than $1.2 million bucks? I daresay I'd be surprised if such a move didn't actually result in more expenditures on the part of other EU members than the mirror plan.

So even "just" economically, "move!" is a stupid idea.

Now add in the loss of history and community, and it becomes even dumber.

Furthermore, as the EU is paying, I'm pretty sure that it's everyone in the EU's money, not just "THEIR OWN" money. Now I don't know about you, but if I lived in, e.g., France, I'd be pissed that these random guys were getting some of my money to install a mirror to create "hot spots" around their town. (Of course, if I lived in France, I'd be pissed for a lot of reasons... but that's another topic). But IANAEUTL (EU tax lawyer).

Population of the EU: 457,030,418
Cost, per citizen of the EU, of this project: .002735 euros (or dollars, or whatever the unit in discussion is)

Are you seriously suggesting that 2.735 thousandths of a dollar/euro/whatever per citizen is some kind of major expenditure? You do realize that the amount in question is likely flushed down the toilet hourly through random administrative seepage? Some clerk in Belgium gives his wang an extra shake while at the john and boom - 2.735 thousandths of a dollar/euro/whatever just got spent.

Given the choice between subsiding some beaurocrat rubbing one out during a coffee break or having a place I could visit that has ginormous mirrors, I'll take the mirrors.

Re:All good until...

[drstock]

This is in Europe, not USA. You can't sue the pants of anyone here, especially not for your own stupidity.

Sun reflecting mirrors in space

[Indy Media Watch]

A while ago there was some research into giant tinfoil equipped satellites which could redirect sunlight onto the earth during darkness. Applications included agricultural (think world's biggest hydroponic setup) and emergency situations requiring 24hr illumination.

I don't know what happened, however between this and Solar Power Satellites transmitting solar generated electricity to earth via microwave I wonder if the research has hurricane implications.

That is, if they could construct an enormous sun-reflecting hurricane death-ray which could be projected/reflected into the eyes of hurricanes, or over oceans to heat the air/water before Hurricanes can form.

Playing with weather... Won't that annoy the hippies!

Re:Sun reflecting mirrors in space

[Indy Media Watch]

Your zeal to irritate hippies shortcircuited your brains again huh?

Nah... The lack of hurricanes in my neighbourhood just lowered my thirst for knowledge of how to defeat them.

I already know how to defeat hippies...

10 Minute Walk? Hah!

[core plexus]

The nation's northernmost town braces Friday for its last sundown of the year.

Barrow, Alaska residents say they tend to sleep more during the long months of round-the-clock dark. The sun sets in Barrow on Friday at 1:40 p.m. and doesn't rise again until Jan. 23 at 1:01 p.m.

Diana Martin is an Inupiat Eskimo and a lifelong Barrow resident. She says it's much easier to start the day when Barrow receives round-the-clock daylight in summer.

Re:earlier

[wulfhound]

There was certainly a project along those lines planned for a remote part of Siberia, using a large space-based mirror.

new news!

[Celt]

This was on the BBC News website two weeks ago, in fairness atleast can we see the news when it happens

Re:Australia

[shrewd]

the Austrian variety of kangaroo's live deep deep underground in dark cold caverns, they'll be alright.

Not the brightest idea

[Greg Hullender]

The EU wants to spend millions of dollars to light up a few percent of a town of only 400 people?

I guess they can't laugh at our bridge to nowhere anymore . . .

--Greg

Re:Not the brightest idea

[TheRaven64]

First, the EU is not spending millions of dollars, it is spending $1.2 million. Secondly, this works out at $3000/person - probably around what the town paid the EU in taxes over five years. The existence of the mirrors will probably spark tourism, and the proof-of-concept demo will probably benefit the company, providing more jobs (both at the company and up the supply chain), which means more tax money. It seems like a fairly good investment.

This kind of thing is not that uncommon in the EU, and is known as objective one matched funding. If you have a project that will create jobs, then it is relatively easy to get the EU to pay for half of it, on the basis that the knock-on benefits to the economy will generate an overall benefit.

Map on news.telegraph

[worf_mo]

Last January news.telegraph had an article about this that featured kind of a map on how the mirrors will be positioned.

Re:Any pic?

[Anonymous Coward]

Try this: http://images.google.com/images?svnum=10&hl=en&lr= &q=Rattenberg&btnG=Search

Re:All good until...

[c9]

This is in Austria, which is not part of the US. c9

Slashdotted!

[ndogg]

I can't seem to read the site. It seems to be slashdotted.

So, does anyone have a good...umm...mirror?

Rat Mountain?

[Udo Schmitz]

Uhm, I don't think so. The places name derives from a guy named Rapoto, offspring of a noble Bavarian lineage, the "Rapotonen". The Rattenberg castle at least dates back to 10th century. More than enough time for the names to change.

Tourist landmark

[SpaghettiPattern]

I live in a country neighboring Austria. When the mirror is up I definitively will pay a visit and spend between 5 and 100 EUR in the town. Just because I and my family like trips. And, if we like it, we might return.

Why build the Eiffel tower? Why build the statue of liberty (and give the ugly thing away?) Why were the funny looking Gaudi buildings built? Why did Linus do it? This list can get pretty long but the common factor is that at the beginning nobody really knew if it really was a good idea.

The truly strange thing is that this mirror thingy is referred to as a technology. Isn't that like calling a hamburger gastronomy?

This discussion gave me a nice idea...

[JollyFinn]

A large curved mirror at polar orbit. Think how nice it would be that sunlight of few square kilometers worth that would be otherwice wasted would be directed on a area of meter wide and few meters in length. Sure the atmostphere would widen the affected area so that people could "enjoy" a nice little hot wave ;) And as the earth revolves under it, it could be designed in a way that most people on earth could enjoy it ;) [Except in cases when the mirror is turned to other direction] The polar orbit is good for keeping it in the sun ALL the time. Another good option is Geostationary so that you can deside WHERE to aim it when it works.

Gerry Anderson is prophetic again!

[Yooden_Vranx]

For a sneak peek at what happens next, see the classic Thunderbirds episode "Lord Parker's 'Oliday" :) http://www.fanderson.org.uk/epguides/tbirds2eg.htm l#Episode%20Four

Re:cool!

[mrselfdestrukt]

You win the palindrome UID prize! Congrats! You can pick up your toyota at any dealer now. Second prize is two toyotas!

in AUSTRIA not AUSTRALIA

[dns_server]

It appears that the writer of the heading has goten confused, the town of Rattenberg is located in AUSTRIA which is a country in europe not australia which is in the southern hemosphere. Why would the EU be paying for a project on the other side of the world in australia? Infact the article makes no reference to australia only austria.

All I can think of

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Is Wyle E. Coyote and a giant "Acme" mirror.
Unintended consequences ensue.

Re:earlier

[famebait]

There was this project about a decade back - to light up scandinavian countries (or is it Greenland), to bring light the same way. The environmentalists raised a stink.

That's different; they were lighting up latitudes that simply don't have sunlight throgh part of the year, and with wildlife being adjusted to that.

This village has normal dayligt for its region, it is just in the shade a lot. The mirror is just out of the shade, with normal dayligt hours, not up in space catching light when there should be night on the ground.

Rattenberg Homepage

[derphilipp]

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rattenberg_(Tirol)
The article says that Rattenberg is famous for its glass-processing industry.

Picture link

[jetmarc]

Using the FP as plug for a picture..

Someone should let this guy know

[bareman]

www.solardeathray.com

and send a photographer to capture the ensuing hilarity.. er, um.. I'm mean document the event.

Where the sun don't shine

[goombah99]

Is this the place people have been telling me to stick my head all these years? Gosh I thought they meant something else.

Re:All good until...

[uradu]

> Why would the kid sue someone's pants specifically?

Sue their pants OFF. You know these kids nowadays, they can never get enough pr0n, even if they have to sue for it.

I live in switzerland too

[theolein]

Here in switzerland they face the very same problem, i.e. the real problem - mountain villages dying out - and they combat it in almost the exact same manor, i.e. the Bund or government pays millions every year for isolated little villages in Engadin in Graubünden that otherwise would have died out already. And what about Rumantsch? The language descended from the Romans spoken only in Graubünden in Switzerland that is rapidly dying out? There are only about 50'000 speakers left despite the language being given a standardised written form and many millions in subsidies etc by the government?

Should they drop all of that as well?