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Microsoft Open Document Standard Not So Open

avik42 wrote to mention an EWeek article discussing Microsoft's attempts at an Open Document Standard. From the article: "According to a Microsoft representative, 'The covenant language is what was referred to as the updated license for the Open XML formats that will be submitted to ECMA International for the standardization process.' The only difference between Microsoft's November 2003 open and royalty-free license for the Office 2003 Reference Schemas and today's Office 2003 license, according to the company, is that 'Microsoft is offering a covenant not to sue for the Office 2003 Reference Schemas.'" We reported on this initiative when it was first announced.

160 comments

  1. In other news... by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 5, Funny

    Water is wet, and the sky is blue.

    1. Re:In other news... by PMuse · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "The sky is blue, water is wet, women have secrets." -JH (1991)

      --
      "We reject as false the choice between our safety and our ideals." --The American President (20.1.2009)
    2. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Informative?

    3. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ITS GON RAIN!

    4. Re:In other news... by Robocoastie · · Score: 1

      predictable. M$ wasn't about to let anyone else create a "standard". What should make one raise their eyebrow though (Massachusettes politicians) is that they never considered this until they finally had competition.

    5. Re:In other news... by Rune69 · · Score: 1

      ...and Firefox 1.5 is out.

      --

      When faced with a problem, many web developers say "I know, I'll use JavaScript!".
      Now they have two problems.
    6. Re:In other news... by Meneth · · Score: 1

      Last night, the sky was orange.

    7. Re:In other news... by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Water is wet, and the sky is blue.

      What is truly funny is that someone modded this informative :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    8. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sky was not orange last night. It appeared to be because your house was on fire!!!

      You left your X-Box on again, didn't you?

    9. Re:In other news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The sky isn't blue, dipshit. It can look blue sometimes but it all depends on the angle of the sun from your vantage point, plus the state of the atmospheric particles.

    10. Re:In other news... by Meneth · · Score: 1

      No, the sky was really orange, due to the city lighting up the clouds.

  2. 100% opensource by m3lt · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What is one to expect from microsoft, just go 100% opensource now?

    --
    .kyle
    1. Re:100% opensource by Jotii · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think they're going to keep releasing really small parts as open source, just to get people believe they're the good guys again.

      --
      [sig]
    2. Re:100% opensource by eneville · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I think they're going to keep releasing really
      > small parts as open source, just to get people
      > believe they're the good guys again.

      They were never good guys. The only open format from them is MS Paint BMP.

    3. Re:100% opensource by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This has nothing to do with source code. This is about open file formats, for dealing with government documents. Other parties must be completely free to implement support for these formats without royalty, without patent infringement, and without restrictions on licensing.

    4. Re:100% opensource by Gravis+Zero · · Score: 1

      yeah... it's hard to see microsoft do something like that but can't we ask for them to not be scumbag liars? apparently this claim was as true as the "Get The Facts" campain.

      --
      Anons need not reply. Questions end with a question mark.
    5. Re:100% opensource by Jotii · · Score: 3, Funny

      People believed they were the good guys. What a relief that BMP is open, with it we can avoid all the legal issues with GIF.

      --
      [sig]
    6. Re:100% opensource by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't forget Notepad
      /Mission Accomplished

    7. Re:100% opensource by Examancer2 · · Score: 3, Informative

      pfff... notepad's fairly proprietary. It only understands the MS-DOS new line, which is two characters (carriage return + new line)... so opening unix style text files results in everything being truncated into a single line. This means that I find myself unable to use notepad sometimes for even the most simple editing of remote files on a *nix server.

    8. Re:100% opensource by Stormy+Henderson · · Score: 2, Informative

      That's not proprietary. That's just lousy. There is a difference.

    9. Re:100% opensource by serverleader · · Score: 1

      Yes ... If you can't win ... change sides!

      --
      - - - - - . .. . - Get Counted!
    10. Re:100% opensource by eosp · · Score: 1

      Come on...you're a hacker too. Try rewriting Notepad with tabbed editing and Unix newlines options, and you're done.

    11. Re:100% opensource by ortholattice · · Score: 1
      Hey, you're in luck! Just download the 1/2 megabyte freeware program ToX and point-and-click your way towards converting Unix linefeeds to DOS. Or if you're lucky enough to have Unix shell access, just type

      sed -e "s/\$/`echo -e '\r'`/" unixfile > dosfile

    12. Re:100% opensource by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wordpad understands unix newlines. Just in case anybody didn't know.

  3. Same old? by hkmwbz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Haven't we been through this before? Quite a while ago Microsoft bragged about using XML as its new Office format. It turned out to be XML with some proprietary additions and such. Is this the very same format, only now Microsoft is claiming it to be open again?

    --
    Clever signature text goes here.
    1. Re:Same old? by rbochan · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep.
      Has Microsoft _ever_ been open with regards to standards and practices? Never. They've never done anything more than lip service with regards to anything other than their own bottom line. Color me cynical if you want, but whenever Microsoft is being touted as anything even close to 'altruistic', the end result usually makes one want to wretch in disgust.

      --
      ...Rob
      The American Dream isn't an SUV and a house in the suburbs; it's Don't Tread On Me.
    2. Re:Same old? by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      It's the same old strategy that has worked so well for them in the past: embrace, extend, extinguish.

    3. Re:Same old? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      An example of new Microsoft Office XML file is provided below. It takes more disk space which is why Bill Gates believes XML is bad and proprietary formats are good:

      <!-- Start of foo.doc -->
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="0"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="0"/>
      <bit value="0"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="1"/>
      <bit value="0"/>
      <bit value="1"/>

      ... and so on until...

      <bit value="1"/>

      <!-- End of foo.doc -->

  4. All hot and ready to check this out! by nizo · · Score: 4, Insightful
    I was so excited when I went to the Microsoft Windows website, seeing such titles as "Transforming Word Documents into the XSL-FO Format" and such. Now all I need to do is maybe not.go download the .exe to start translating on my linux system. Oh wait, that would be for Microsoft Windows only. Well maybe I should just go take a look at "Word 2003: XML Software Development Kit (SDK)". Now all I need to do is download the wdxmlsdk.msi file and run that. Oh wait, screwed again.

    Imagine that, I look through the entire site and can't find a single executable or document format that doesn't require me to buy a Microsoft Windows OS and Office Suite. Lets all give Microsoft a big round of applause for their open XML format!

    1. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by fishybell · · Score: 5, Funny
      I've found two programs that will solve your problem:

      this and this.

      Hope those help.

      --
      ><));>
    2. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No, my user number is not the same as your bank account number.
      And your bank account number is not the same as my bank account number.
      I know what your bank account number is.
      You know what my bank account number is not.

      What is your bank balance?
      Now, what is it?

    3. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by markdavis · · Score: 1

      >I've found two programs that will solve your problem: this and this [openoffice].

      As far as I am aware, OpenOffice will not open an "msi" file nor an "exe" file....

    4. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      No, but rm will.

    5. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by Ravatar · · Score: 1

      It's not up to Microsoft to create you tools, for free, to use with their formats.

    6. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by fatman22 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The rest of us would settle for Microsoft not actively PREVENTING others from developing those tools.

    7. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by krunk4ever · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm probably going to lose karma points because of this, but I don't believe you understand what the difference between open format vs open source is. As long as the file format is documented and everything is available to public, then it's opened. They aren't required to make tools to "help" other platforms.

      I originally thought you were just trying to be funny. Then I saw rated 5 insightful. I guess either the moderators didn't get the joke, or they themselves don't understand what an open format is.

      Html I believe is a somewhat analogous example. Html is a royalty free file format that people are allowed to use and create. However, it does not mean that the creators of the html file format needed to provide development kits or tools for every platform. I mean the file format's out there. It's there so developers can use it to create the tools and development kits themselves. Microsoft decided to create the dev kit and the tools for their own platforms to further its worth and I see nothing wrong with that.

      I mean if I were to complain someone wrote a tool/dev kit based on some "open format" for linux , but not for Windows, would I have the right to complain?

    8. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      You do realize that both files are easily extracatble by using any open source cab file extractor, right? Wait, that blows your argument.

    9. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by JWtW · · Score: 1

      Exactly! Doesn't the GP's post fly in the face of most hacker's credo of not having to solve the same problem twice..?

    10. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So once he extracts the files he will be able to run them on his Linux computer. Riiiight.

    11. Re:All hot and ready to check this out! by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      The extracted files are not executables.

  5. Seek ye groklaw. by killjoe · · Score: 5, Informative

    As usual groklaw has a very thorough analysis of this subject. From their web page here are some of the potential problems.

    "1. Patent protection is contingent on a conformant implementation. "Conformant" is not defined, meaning there is uncertainty needing legal advice.

    2. There is no provision for partial implementation, meaning true community-based development is not covered until complete.

    3. It may well mean that implementation of just a word processor is impossible -- it implies that you have to implement everything (spreadsheets & all) to reach the bar.

    4. It is specific to the version currently existing, meaning I can be hooked into supporting it now, but when Office 12 or Office 13 comes out & I update to be compatible with the format in that I can get sued. The covenant Sun uses creates ongoing protection.

    5. It does not grant patents to the ECMA standard as it only applies to Office 11 XML. This means a new covenant will be needed for the ECMA work.

    6. If the same form of words were used for a contribution to ECMA, then those prototyping the ongoing evolution of the standard as ECMA changed it would lose protection the instant any change was made. It applies only to Microsoft's input, not to ECMA's output. Or maybe they would rather ECMA didn't change anything?"

    If you ask me #1 should be "Ms lies all the time, they are probably lying now, they don't really care about anybody except themseves, they have always stabbed their partners in the back, they don't play nice with anybody, anytime, anywhere".

    --
    evil is as evil does
  6. Open but not Free by kebes · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I agree with Stallman, who says:

    "designed to prohibit all free software. It covers only code that implements, precisely, the Microsoft formats, which means that a program under this license does not permit modification."

    This control that Microsoft wants to maintain has two problems. One, programmers are not free to modify the document format to suit their particular needs. This limits freedom and innovation in many ways.

    Two, it means that the future direction of the standard is not truly free or open. Only MS can decide what the next incarnation will be like? Only MS can control the future directions of our document format? That is just another form of control. It still means that our data is locked into a format that we don't really own or control. Yes, being somewhat open, it would be easier, in the future, to migrate to another standard, but ultimately the user still gets screwed. It should be obvious that it's better to have a format that is decided upon in a more transparent and communal way. If new features are needed, they can be debated and possibly added to future versions. If someone doesn't like the trend that the format is taking, they can fork it and create a derivative format (that will presumably not have the blessing of the official versions' name, since it's not incompatible... but that's okay). In the long run, perhaps this variant becomes the "next big thing." With an MS-style control, that innovation cannot happen, and the future of the document standard is weakened.

    In short, Microsoft doesn't understand what we mean when we say "we want an open standard."

    1. Re:Open but not Free by syle · · Score: 4, Insightful
      In short, Microsoft doesn't understand what we mean when we say "we want an open standard."
      Oh, they understand you well enough. When someone creates language to specifically stop you from doing what you want, it isn't an accident and it does not demonstrate lack of understanding. Just the opposite.
      --

      /syle

    2. Re:Open but not Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I thought the whole point of standards was that everyone followed the same rules. You don't want 50 different embrace and extend implementations. Isn't one of the main critizisms of Microsoft is they take a standard and modifiy so that it is no longer compatible with the standard.

      i know it irks people that Microsoft is explicitly stating you can't modify (it almost makes you want to modify just because they said you can't). But not a good idea to to do it in the first place.

    3. Re:Open but not Free by kebes · · Score: 1

      Yes, the point of a standard is for people to follow the rules to the letter, otherwise it accomplishes nothing. That's why it makes sense for a regulating body to say "we endorse this standard" and to give the standard a name so people can refer to it. But that's why, in my original post, I said: "that will presumably not have the blessing of the official versions' name, since it's not incompatible... but that's okay"

      My point is that derivative formats are not a bad thing, as long as they don't become confused with the original formats. A small subset of people can use the derivative (non-official) format if it suits them. They know that it is incompatible with the official format. They should NOT use the name of the official format: to do so would be misleading. But they should be allowed to create a new file format for experimentation purposes, or to suit their need, and base it on an existing format (instead of inventing something from scratch). If the new features of this variant format turn out to be useful, they can be merged into the next version of the "official" version and get all the recognition and compliance that goes along with that.

      The argument about format variants applies not so much to the end users at large (who want a minimum number of standards to deal with!), but instead to the developers, programmers and cutting-edge users (i.e.: the people who tend to innovate and define what the next generation of standards will look like).

      Coming back to the original article, it should be clear that the Microsoft licensing forbids all that. You get stuck with their next version. No innovation, no variation, no openness.

    4. Re:Open but not Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

      "One, programmers are not free to modify the document format to suit their particular needs."

      Er, what do you expect if they're attempting to make it a 'standard'?

      Do you want every project tweaking and changing the format in their own ways, leading to the grossly labyrinthine mess that is desktop Linux 'standards' today?

      I hate Microsoft as much as the next guy, but you can't bash them for trying to keep their 'standard' coherent. Given 50 open source projects the 'right' to change the code, and we'd have masses of different endlessly over-engineered second-system syndrome implementations, and you'd try to open a doc but you'd get a 'libmsdocimport-ng.0.4.12 required' error.

      The Linux desktop is pretty much empirical proof of all that!

      Think a bit further...

    5. Re:Open but not Free by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      What a fucking joke. Do you know how often Microsoft ignores their own standards? Microsoft has no interest in standards, only in furthering its monopoly. There are plenty of freely implementable standards out there that don't need Redmond, WA to keep 'em inline. Why, the goddamn standard that allows me to laugh at your pathetic attempt to excuse a convicted monopolist's immoral attempts to further its unlawful monopoly is being shot out through one of those standards.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    6. Re:Open but not Free by Clockwurk · · Score: 1

      One, programmers are not free to modify the document format to suit their particular needs.

      What is the point of a standard if anyone can change it?? If you need something different than the standard, create your own format. Don't dilute compatibilty by introducing non-standard elements (embrace and extend).

      It still means that our data is locked into a format that we don't really own or control.

      As long as the original standard is published, anyone is free to implement a converter or reader to access them and the data is hardly "locked".

      An open format doesn't mean that everyone has a say in what the standard is (I don't have a say in determining standard screw sizes or pipe sizes); an open format means that anyone is free to implement the standard (I am free to use 1/4-20 screws in any project I like)and they can count on other implementations to be compatible (I know that my 1/4-20 hex nut will fit on any 1/4-20 bolt).

    7. Re:Open but not Free by kebes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What is the point of a standard if anyone can change it??

      As I said here there is a good reason why (some people) need to be able to modify a "standard" to suit their needs. Agreeing on standards is useful. Preventing people from creating derivatives of a standard to satisfy their particular needs is not. We need some innovators to push the envelope, and those people need the freedom to create derivative standards. (But not necessarily the right to confuse people by claiming that these derivative standards are compatible with the original standard.) Having 1/4-20 screws as a standard is good. Forbidding someone from implementing a metric version of the same idea is bad (hooray for M6 screws!... sometimes the derivative standard is better...).

      As long as the original standard is published, anyone is free to implement a converter or reader to access them and the data is hardly "locked".

      I think that's a large part about what this debate is. Microsoft is not providing a totally open document standard that anyone can legally re-implement. OpenDocument gives us this. What MS is doing is creating a new standard, and making the documentation available, but subjecting it to various licensing schemes. At first, the schemes seem reasonable available, but in fact the provisions make it unclear if other products will be able to open the MS document standard in perpetuity.

      At a minimum, the legalese is confusing and it's not at all clear that the MS document format will be open and useable in the ways we need it to be.

      An open format doesn't mean that everyone has a say in what the standard is

      Fair enough... but in my book, a format isn't open if I'm not allowed to create a derivative standard (under a new name). I should be allowed to innovate and come up with a variant of OpenDocument (and call it "UberTextFormat!" or whatever), or come up with a new kind of screw or electrical socket, based on current designs. Whether or not the standard becomes widely implemented is another question altogether. It is in our general interest to use a small set of standards to get our work done efficiently. But having a particular standard immune to evolution does not serve our goals.

    8. Re:Open but not Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Your right that the license forbids, "A small subset of people can use the derivative (non-official) format if it suits them". But your also right that this group would be a small subset. Not mainsteam developers looking to solve a business case by adding compatibilty for MS office 2003 to their application. Most pick a standard to solve a business problem. I think this new license does just that.

      A good example: If you ever used COM to make, read or modify a MS Word, Excel, powerpoint. You will know that using these XML formats is so much better. Most inportantly it finally solves the problem that a true server side app was never possible with the office COM.

      I think some are missing another motivation for their "openness", and that is to get people to upgrade. MS Office biggest competitor is not open source Office apps but MS office 2000, 97. If business and government embraced this format it will be considered a killer feature and a good reason to upgrade to a newer version of office.

      I don't know if this would work but... you could "extend" the XML documents. The XML documents like to use relational ids (w:rel). You could create a completely seperate document that uses those ids to extend the format without even touching the original documents. Couldn't this get around the license?

    9. Re:Open but not Free by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Open but not free still has some appeal to certain audiences, and this is truly where MS is trying to make the powerplay. You think they're trying to make Stallman happy? How much MS software does he buy? MS doesn't care about community or OSS or RMS. It's all about keeping and building their customer base.

      They're doing this to placate "vendor lock-in" fears (whatever the hell that is - OSS presents many of the same dependencies) with IT managers who want to look good to the boss justifying $X million on Office licenses.

      Corporations will like knowing that their data is stored in a format that can, at the very least, be properly understood and, potentially, be migrated to some other format or system "someday in the future" - which of course rarely happens anyway. (The IT manager probably knows he won't have to deliver on that promise)

      And all those developers who make their livings building add-on widgets for the Office suite will be probably be geeked about a published set of specs too.

    10. Re:Open but not Free by SeventyBang · · Score: 1



      Can I make a guess? How about daily?

      HTML becomes standardized. Can they implement that? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo. But they do manage to add their own twists [instead].

      JavaScript is ready to go by Netscape. Does Microsoft want to play along? Nooooooooooooooooo. They have to hire their own drummer and march to his beat so we end up with JScript.

      A new version of RSS is in the works. Is Microsoft going to work & play well with others? Well, the the ink to write the standards isn't even wet, let alone dry, and Microsoft has already announced their vernacular on it.

      Were they to implement the standards, then implement their own thing, I could see it. But when they're more concerned upo getting their flavor of the day implemented in lieu of the standardss, then I have to wonder what's wrong with them.


    11. Re:Open but not Free by SeaFox · · Score: 1

      Fair enough... but in my book, a format isn't open if I'm not allowed to create a derivative standard (under a new name). I should be allowed to innovate and come up with a variant of OpenDocument (and call it "UberTextFormat!" or whatever), or come up with a new kind of screw or electrical socket, based on current designs. Whether or not the standard becomes widely implemented is another question altogether. It is in our general interest to use a small set of standards to get our work done efficiently. But having a particular standard immune to evolution does not serve our goals.

      Are you going to make UberTextFormat open as well?

      If not, then this sounds just like what happened to the web. Microsoft and Netscape Navigator can both read HTML 2.0, then they both began "innovating" and came up with variant formats that would only work in their respective browsers, and they would not make those changes open, so now the open standard of HTML 2.0 becomes the variants owned by corporations. The probelm is, those new "standards" become popular for their extra enhancments and people began having to choose sides when they should have had their choice of any browser they want and have the document (website) look the same.

      It really doesn't matter so much that M$ and Netscape both claimed their websites were websites and not Netsites or Microsites, the blame lays with the content creators who had to have their bells and whistles rather than sticking with the standard. If the HTML extensions had not come into widespread use, there would not be such a mess as today.

      And this is the probelm with allowing a standard to be changed by a company when they have access to such a large chunk of the potential users.

    12. Re:Open but not Free by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      Uhh. JScript *IS* JavaScript, but without the trademark "java" phrase.

      Actually, no it's not JavaScript, it's ECMA-script, the standardized version of JavaScript.

    13. Re:Open but not Free by Professor+Bluebird · · Score: 1

      With proprietary extensions.

    14. Re:Open but not Free by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I'm not referring to HTML, which no one has ever truly adhered to as a standard. I'm referring to TCP/IP, a freely implementable protocol which has survived quite nicely without having to be controlled and walled-off.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    15. Re:Open but not Free by Tamsco · · Score: 1

      It's open to Microsoft and anyone who wants to pay them enough, but keep in mind the technology isn't hidden, just blocked legally. This means converters and tools will be developed and served on russian mirrors. While this likely will not be open for American businesses it certainly could be open for others.

  7. Legal question by eric76 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can a covenant not to sue even be considered to be some kind of license?

    I think a covenant not to sue is basically a promise, nothing more.

    In contrast, a license grants certain rights to the licensee.

    In what way does Microsoft's covenant actually grant any kind of rights to a licensee?

    1. Re:Legal question by pilgrim23 · · Score: 4, Funny

      In the Middle Ages: "DUNK the WITCH!" If she floats, she IS a witch and we BURN HER! If she sinks and drowns, then she is not a witch, and we bury her in the full embrace of Church. As one can see, Microsoft draws on fairly well established and traditional legal presidents.

      --
      - Minutus cantorum, minutus balorum, minutus carborata descendum pantorum.
    2. Re:Legal question by TheWickedKingJeremy · · Score: 1

      Um, I think you meant "... well established and traditional legal congressmen "...

      --

      my religion lies somewhere between buddhism and super monkey ball - pamphlet?
    3. Re:Legal question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      traditional legal presidents.

      I think you meant Legal Precedent.

      A legal president is what you're supposed to get after a valid election in democratic republics. Don't worry, the mistake is understandable. You're probably from a republic where politicians use illegal tricks to get elected... Hence your confusion.

    4. Re:Legal question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In addition to owning several congressmen, Microsoft owns and has owned a president or two prior to this one. So both you and OP are right.

    5. Re:Legal question by wernerpm · · Score: 1

      There are another ways of telling whether she is a witch.
      if she have the same weight as a duck, she is made of wood. and therefore, is a witch

  8. I'm not suprised by ndtechnologies · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This really isn't all that suprising. In fact when Microsoft first mentioned the possiblity of opening up their XML schema, a lot of people automatically looked at how they were going to do it, and they came to the same conclusion as has been found here.

    --
    I have nothing clever to put here...
    1. Re:I'm not suprised by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Indeed. There is a line in the "license" which specifically states it is a nontransferable right to distribute software using these schemas, but if the right to distribute is nontransferable, any GPL project is banned from using it automatically. From day one it was clear nothing had changed.

    2. Re:I'm not suprised by Da_Weasel · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "This covenant shall not apply with respect to any person or entity that asserts, threatens or seeks at any time to enforce a patent right or rights against Microsoft or any of its affiliates relating to any conforming implementation of the Specifications."

      So ummmm...if Microsoft infringes on your patents in the specification or implementation of it, and you attempt to say anything or do anything about it, then you are no longer covered by the covenant. Hmmm...sounds to my like they are trying to hook everyone into the format and they they can just walk all over everyone else's patents almost with out worry.

      "This statement is not an assurance either (i) that any of Microsoft's issued patent claims cover a conforming implementation of the Specifications or are enforceable, or (ii) that such an implementation would not infringe patents or other intellectual property rights of any third party."

      So they are saying that they are not going to tell you if any part of the specification or implementation of the specification are covered by their patents so you can't possibly know if you are infriging on their patents. Sure...you could just read their patents and compare them to the specification and your implementation but really...who has the time or resources to read all of those?

      --
      If you must!
  9. It is what I say it is, darn it by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Funny

    From an AC developer in a linked article in TFA: "In English, that means if an open-source group agreed to use the license (never gonna happen) and built an application with it, they can NOT provide the source code for it with the license. If you write code with a license, you can NOT share that code with me unless I go get a license, too. Pretty much against everything open source is about," the developer said.

    MS: The ceiling is blue.
    Me: Obviously, it is not. It is chartreuse. You said you'd make it blue, but it is still chartreuse. Maybe a slightly different shade of chartreuse, but chartreuse.

    MS: No, it's blue. It says it right here in our marketing materials. That color you see is now called blue.
    Me: Screw this, I'm going outside, where the sky is really blue, and everyone calls it blue. Whatever you're selling isn't the same as what you're calling it.

    --
    "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  10. Yep. Same old Same old. by rodgster · · Score: 2



    Just say No!

    to proprietary, closed, non-standards based bastardizations.

    --
    Who will guard the guards?
  11. MS can't compete and they know it by nagora · · Score: 0, Flamebait
    They've never competed on quality. The law and lock-in are the only things they've got. The vast majority of MS programmers are third-rate hacks who have no pride in their work (otherwise they'd work for a company that takes pride in its work).

    TWW

    --
    "Encyclopedia" is to "Wikipedia" what "Library" is to "Some people at a bus stop"
  12. In just a few days... by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    things have changed. Just this AM, people were saying that MS should be given a chance. Oh, well. I still want to see how this shakes out. Part of me hopes that MS will see the light, but I doubt it.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
    1. Re:In just a few days... by bogie · · Score: 1

      I love the jackoffs who came/come here whining "Can we please not do the whole typical slashdot MS is evil so let's bash them no matter what they do. Can't they for once just possibly be doing the right thing?".

      Here's a clue to you Microsoft fanboys who somehow continue not to get it. No, MS cannot possible act in any other way beyond being an unethical ill behaving monopolist. We will contine not to trust them and we will continue to call them out for what they are. They play extremely dirty lie, cheat, and steal at every turn and are not interested in working for the common good on any level. Take your BS "well its slashdot so we bash MS no matter what" quip and shove it where the sun don't shine.

      --
      If you wanna get rich, you know that payback is a bitch
    2. Re:In just a few days... by Hosiah · · Score: 1
      Part of me hopes that MS will see the light, but I doubt it.

      I don't doubt it...but only in the looooooong term, decades and decades down the line when we all have Eyeball Linux running in our contact-lenses and Google implants in our temples and we're all having spontaneous orgasms from being able to download porn just by *thinking* about it...Microsoft will wake up one morning and notice that it isn't 1995 any more and it'll never again be king of the megabytes and it'll stand on it's last million in reserve and say "We're ready to play nice, now. Here's the source code to everything. We're having a patent bonfire. Anybody want to donate to support our project by clicking that PayPal button?"

    3. Re:In just a few days... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Excellent Logic. Now that you've mastered 2nd grade reasoning, we can move on to more sophisticated thought processes. "No, MS cannot possible act in any other way beyond being an unethical ill behaving monopolist." Right and Linux-slurpers like you cannot act in any way other than to hang on Linus' nutsack. Why are you such a pathetic follower?

  13. I was expecting this to make news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting
    1. Re:I was expecting this to make news by pete6677 · · Score: 1

      That sounds too stupid to be true, even for a bureaucracy. I think what really happened is that Billy G. made good on his past-due campaign support "donations" to the Kennedys.

    2. Re:I was expecting this to make news by killjoe · · Score: 1

      Nah it was to the governors office. Mitt Romney who is of course a republican.

      --
      evil is as evil does
    3. Re:I was expecting this to make news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mitt may be a Republican, but make no mistake, our Beacon Hill (section of Boston where the State House is) is run by Democrats. I'm surprised the Open Source/MS discussion in the state got as far as it did.

  14. Put it on paper please. by adolfojp · · Score: 3, Interesting
    The only difference between Microsoft's November 2003 open and royalty-free license for the Office 2003 Reference Schemas and today's Office 2003 license, according to the company, is that 'Microsoft is offering a covenant not to sue for the Office 2003 Reference Schemas.
    Now, if we could just get the same thing for mono...
  15. Speak their language by Descalzo · · Score: 2, Insightful
    MicroSoft is not stupid, and they will do what they have to do. So the only way to make them do what we want them to do is to make it so they have to do it. They are making these overtures of openness to try to keep big customers, like the city of Boston, right? Well, if Boston doesn't like this 'open' plan, they can do something else (and should!).

    People (by people I mean most people) take what they are used to taking. If we can get enought people to be ticked off at this and use another format, we can force MicroSoft to do things the way we want them done. If we hold them to our demands, either they will get our money, or they will seal their own doom in the word processing market.

    --
    I cried real tears when Li Mu Bai died.
  16. Covenant language? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 3, Funny

    Covenant language?

    So that's what the religious war was about in Halo! The Aliens using OpenOffice against the heretic humans using Microsoft Office. Or possibly the other way around.

    I always wondered why both sides hated each other so much.

    Time to call in the Arbiter!

    1. Re:Covenant language? by annex1 · · Score: 1

      I was truly hoping somebody would make a Halo crack! :D Good job.

    2. Re:Covenant language? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      She came up to the brazier and thrust the rod into the frying-pan saying: 'O fish, are you constant to your covenant?'

      And when the cookmaid heard this she swooned away. Then the damsel repeated her question a second and a third time; and the fish lifted up their heads and cried out with one voice,

      'Yes, yes:
      Return, and we return: keep faith, and so will we:
      Or, if thou wilt, forsake, and we'll do like to thee!'

      from The Fisherman and the Genie

    3. Re:Covenant language? by Tim+Browse · · Score: 1

      Is there something you would like to share with the group?

    4. Re:Covenant language? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0


      Halo doesn't suck. He did pick a game that doesn't suck. Task accompished.

  17. Even M$ Can't Afford To Lose The Office Monopoly by gasmonso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    M$ will never make their documents standards open because the Office apps represent an enormous amount of their income. The other app is Windows. Everything else they do is either a loss or a drop in the bucket. M$ knows that once they open up their doc formats, competitors would drive them out of that business.

    gasmonso http://religiousfreaks.com/
  18. Vector Graphics by Biff+Stu · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Even if it were really open, the other question is how to deal with embedded vector graphics? Right now, the only formats that MS supports are .emf & .wmf. These are MS proprietary formats and they only display reliably if you're working on a Windows machine. If you're stuck with documents with significant embedded emf graphics and you don't want to use Windows, you're currently S.O.L. Of course, the ultimate answer would be for MS to support .svg in its Office products, but it's not clear that they will ever want to give up this subtle little lock that ties Office to Windows.

    1. Re:Vector Graphics by narcc · · Score: 2, Informative

      The WMF format is very well understood. Microsoft isn't hiding anything about it. Check out wotsit.org for 3 good documents about WMF (including one from MS)

    2. Re:Vector Graphics by ruyon · · Score: 1

      Indeed, even Powerpoint for Mac does not reliably show the graphics embeded in the .ppt file I always recieve. The only way to see them correctly is to open the files with Powerpoint for Windows.

    3. Re:Vector Graphics by I'm+Don+Giovanni · · Score: 1

      1. Visio supports svg.
      2. WMF is well understood and many Mac apps support it.

      --
      -- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
    4. Re:Vector Graphics by herbyderby · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is actually a bigger issue than most people realize. All of the charts in Excel and PowerPoint are embedded as EMF files, which indeed are poorly documented.

      But even worse than WMF/EMF is the EMF+ Dual format used in recent versions of Office. It is an almost completely undocumented format that hides GDI+ commands within EMF comment records in parallel with the normal GDI-based records. Because only Microsoft knows the format of the secret comment records, only it can leverage them to produce higher quality results by rendering via GDI+. Applications which understand EMF will skip over the comments, oblivious to the secret data (which is perhaps why awareness of this issue isn't more widespread). Knowledge of these records would be especially useful when converting to other vector formats such as SVG or PDF.

      Many people have written to Microsoft in an attempt to get EMF+ documented, so far to no avail (and it was introduced no later than Office 2000).

      I recently wrote about this issue in more depth.

  19. Microsoft is doing us a favor with this. by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 4, Funny

    After all, the MS Office XML format is so hideous that I doubt any programmer would want to modify an application that dares touch the thing!

    Thank you, Microsoft! :)

  20. More detail on Groklaw by NickFortune · · Score: 5, Insightful
    PJ and Marbux do a fine job of demolishing this particular feat of verbal legerdemain over on Groklaw

    Not only do MS not promise to extend the covenant past Office 11, but they limit the covenant to "patent claims necessary to conform" without defining what constitures conformance or necessity in this context.

    This means that they can still sue if they allege that there was another way you could have implemented the spec without infringing on their patents (since it wasn't necessary) or they can sue if you don't implement every last detail on the spec (since your implementation isn't conformant).

    Between those two, and the fact that MS have not committed not to change the spec at some future time, they can sue just about anyone they like.

    PJ also points out that the EMCA doesn't require a free licence, just Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory (RAND). However they explicity decline to offer a definition of RAND and simply presume that all submissions will be offered under RAND terms. Which means MS can pretty much do as they see fit.

    All in all, typical Microsoft smoke and mirrors.

    --
    Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    1. Re:More detail on Groklaw by killjoe · · Score: 1, Redundant

      It's also important that MS is only judge of what is and is not conformant with the spec because they get to decide what is "complete". This means that at any time they can decide that an open source project is not "complete" and then sue them if they continue to insist that it is.

      Too bad they seem to have bought the governors office though. Spread a few rolexes around and MA will accept your definition of open. Do we live in a great country or what?

      --
      evil is as evil does
    2. Re:More detail on Groklaw by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "More detail on Groklaw"
        (Score:5, Insightful)

      Wow! What insight.

    3. Re:More detail on Groklaw by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1
      I think the second part of your comment got you modded down, but I wanted to say that I thought you hit the nail on the head with the first part:
      It's also important that MS is only judge of what is and is not conformant with the spec because they get to decide what is "complete". This means that at any time they can decide that an open source project is not "complete" and then sue them if they continue to insist that it is.

      The additional concern is that MS is so big and known to be legally aggressive, the fact that they have the judgmental authority over whether an implemetation is conformant will be enough to keep a lot of smaller companies from touching the spec. Implement it the wrong way, or in a way that pisses MS off, and you'll find yourself getting sued into the ground. Sure they may not win, but they'll have just enough of a case to keep it in court for a while and bleed you to death.

      The result here is that MS can say they have an open format, but the licensing will effectively keep most of the other implementations rather trivial; my guess is that other companies will write "converters" or plugins, rather than actually use the format natively, and then MS can use this lack of native support as a case for continued use of their own products.
      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  21. Ohhh, Microsoft by coastin · · Score: 5, Funny

    Lie to me, force me to write hot checks, but please, please Microsoft, respect me in the morning...

    --
    I lost my sig...
  22. Things will change by Filthysock · · Score: 2, Interesting

    If ms had not been forced to support web standards ove the years, you probably would just be seeing a 'please spend a minium of $500 on ms products to view these pages'

  23. It's Just Open Enough... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    that it might fool a political figure or high level state govenment functionary into thinking it was open.

  24. They really, really, really mean it this time.. by phrackwulf · · Score: 3, Funny

    Cross Bill's heart and hope to die, stick a needle in Balmer's eye, promise they won't sue. It must be true, Redmond's lawyers say so! (Anyone else flashing back to Lucy holding the football for Charlie Brown by any chance?) Too bad Johnny Cochran kicked the bucket, we might need to employ the "Liar, liar, pants on fire defense" if this goes bad!

    --
    What would Richard Feynman do, if he were here right now? He'd do some math and he'd follow through!
  25. Probably executive overruling by snitmo · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'm guessing some marketers and engineers in MS got excited about open format and made a splash. For example, Mr. Brian Jones looked genuinely interested in doing so in his blog (http://blogs.msdn.com/brian_jones/). The executives learned about it later, and said "Oh, no, we can't let them open the format ... we'll lose the lock-in!" and they overruled them. Happens all the time in corporations.

  26. Response by game+kid · · Score: 2, Funny

    In a stunning turn of events, Massachusetts state secretary of administration and finance Thomas Trimarco has revealed that Microsoft's recent efforts to make Office XML a ratified ECMA standard may indeed make the format acceptable to the government.

    Science fiction superstar William Shatner quickly responded to the news...

    --
    You can hold down the "B" button for continuous firing.
  27. One of Laches... by Svartalf · · Score: 1

    Simply put, stating publicly that you will not pursue litigation with respect to a Patent or Copyright under "X" conditions, while not carrying the same weight as a license, will make it deucedly difficult to pursue an "infringer" at some later date because there would be an expectation of them keeping to their public proclaimations at a later date. But, it would only apply to the implementations that explicitly followed what was "promised" and anything else, esp. after they go back on their promise, would be fair game. With a license, what is stated goes- period. No, "Oh, we changed our minds...", etc.

    I want a license, not a promise. While it will protect me in court, a promise holds less weight than an explicit license.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
    1. Re:One of Laches... by mysticgoat · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I want a license, not a promise. While it will protect me in court, a promise holds less weight than an explicit license.

      That's fine for software.

      But we're talking about standards governing the way I can store my proprietary data, and the way my government is to store any data that could affect me.

      I want that to be free of any kind of license; I demand that this standard be completely unencumbered by any corporate or individual rights. What you compose on the keyboard is your intellectual property; no person, corporation, or government should have any hint of a right of control over any part of that process.

  28. the political power play by Alien+Being · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney said "The commonwealth is very pleased with Microsoft's progress in creating an open document format. If Microsoft follows through as planned, we are optimistic that Office Open XML will meet our new standards for acceptable open formats."

    Romney, for those who don't know, seems to be positioning himself for a run at the 2008 Republican nomination for president. Those MS campaign dollars must look very tempting to him. But political corruption is being uncovered on an almost daily basis.

    Better watch your step watch, Mitt. You're not in Utah anymore. This is the land of the Patriots. We'll tar and feather your ass. You'll be romney.tfz

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tar_and_feather

    1. Re:the political power play by ozmanjusri · · Score: 1

      Better watch your step watch, Mitt. You're not in Utah anymore.

      Why should he start worrying now. Playing to the corporates has been working well for him so far. http://thinkprogress.org/index.php?p=819
      Don't forget, he's a (former) venture capitalist who spent almost 10 million to get elected. He's there for a reason...

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
  29. data/software are 2 different issues by sit1963nz · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Personally I don't give a damn one way or the other about open source software. What I do care about is open source document/data formats and open source protocol formats. Miscrosoft, Apple, Adobe, who ever can write their own software, keep the source well hidden and do what they like, however the DATA that is created is created by ME, not them, so I believe that I own that data and have the right to access it via what ever means I require. Instead of anyone protecting their marketshare by consumer lock-in methods such as proprietry formats, they should be keeping their customers happy by having the best products. It is ONLY through this method that we will see software improvements, better interface designs, better (useable/needed) functionality, better speed, wider platform acceptance. Lets face it, how much more needs to be jammed into a wordprocessor, being able to put in multimedia is crap as the ultimate goal of a WP is the printed format/document, if you need a multimedia presentation then there are other formats (acrobat is one option). Bottom line is if it can not be printed it is not part of a WP. So I guess we can almost safely assume that the WP has been done to death and the only thing keeping it there as a revenue stream is changes in file/data formats. The same applies to protocols, Microsoft can keep Exchange proprietry as hell, however the data and the protocols must be open, that way someone can create a functionally equal (better?) product. if MS has the best product (useability,support,functionality,etc) and they charge for it and have the most customers then more power to them, if someone can create a better product client side or server side the again more power to them. To see if this works, well just look at POP servers, Webservers,NNTP, etc etc etc. There are both open source and commercial softwares accross a variety of platforms, and it seems to me that this system has proven its worth over time.

    1. Re:data/software are 2 different issues by ejp1082 · · Score: 1

      Bingo. Not being much of a programmer, Linux is as much a black box to me as Windows is. So open vs. closed source doesn't matter a whole bunch to me - I'll evaluate each on its merits, chiefly looking at functionality and usability.

      However, what I can't stand is lock in. I should be able to use any client I want with MS Exchange, or replace Exchange outright with something that does the same thing. I should be able to buy music from iTunes and play it using any software I want and put it on any portable player. I should be able to use any word processor I want to work with my files.

      Keeping the formats and protocols closed is as anti-competitive as you can get.

    2. Re:data/software are 2 different issues by tom's+a-cold · · Score: 1

      Open document formats are a wonderful thing, as are platform and OS-independent data formats. But the value of content lies not only in itself, but in its semantics. And semantics are often embodied in the code, not just in the data. After all, that's why we use objects: because it in so many cases it just doesn't make sense to separate classes from their behaviors.

      So that's why I want to see source code too.

      --
      Get your teeth into a small slice: the cake of liberty
  30. Re:Perish the though! by symbolic · · Score: 1


    Microsoft....competing.

  31. Oh! Oh! I have a question! by kimvette · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why does Microsoft insist on proposing a new "open" document format when there is already an established one accepted by several official standards bodies as well as endorsed by practically every other office suite producer? Why can't Microsoft for ONCE accept someone else's standard and stick to it? I know there's the whole "it's not from here" ego thing, but sheesh.

    If Microsoft learned to play well with others, they'd not have a black eye right now. Microsoft is like the kid who was bigger than everyone else in 3rd grade and a bit of a bully, only everyone else has caught up to them in size and are now starting to fight back and hit the punk where it hurts. Linux on the server end and the OOo suite on the deskop are really hurting, and with several Linux distros' being ready for prime time - for real now - they're scared shitless.

    Microsoft could continue to dominate the market through offering integration services plus value-added development and extension of open source projects, but again, it's the whole "it's not from here" thing getting in the way.

    --
    The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    1. Re:Oh! Oh! I have a question! by snitmo · · Score: 1
      Because MS is in business of making money instead of making friends. It has nothing to do with their egos. More to do with greed and shortsightedness, I think.

      As long as MS has its own Office format (even if it's open), OOo and other products can never be 100% compatible with Office. No offense to OOo developers here ... I have a lot of respect to them. However, once OOo achieves 100% compatibility with Office, MS will change the format slightly so that OOo won't work 100% well. This routine repeats over and over.

      Since most PC users already use Office and they receive Office documents from others, they are afraid of not being 100% compatible with Office. They opt to but Office for $100 or $200 or whatever they have to pay to avoid the inconvenience.

      It seems MS isn't opening up their format after all. They will do these kinds of PR tap-dancing to avoid the heat that is being applied by the state of Massachusetts and the media, but they will do anything not to give up the lock-in, I think.

    2. Re:Oh! Oh! I have a question! by 3dvideo · · Score: 0

      Wow what a surprise! I'll have to send in my army of Geminis to the rescue!

      --
      stereoscopic multimedia pioneer view3d.tv
    3. Re:Oh! Oh! I have a question! by kebes · · Score: 1

      Why does Microsoft insist on proposing a new "open" document format when there is already an established one...

      Good point. And for that matter, if Microsoft is trying to support open document standards, then why not just open up the old Microsoft Office formats? You know, give us all the documentation, let us write fully compatible readers (legally). After all, lots of people already use MS Office formats. Of course, we all know that they are offering a new document format (rather than accepting what OpenDocument has to offer) purely because they want to maintain their Office software monopoly, which relies heavily on their document format monopoly.

    4. Re:Oh! Oh! I have a question! by I'm+Don+Giovanni · · Score: 0, Troll

      OpenDocument format was created because OO.o (and ostensibly others) couldn't compete with MS Office (whether it be based on merit or based on format lock-in). So they created a new format and proclaimed the openness of the format as the primary reason to use OO.o (as opposed to reasons like features, UI, integration, etc). But this format was made with OO.o in mind. It naturally fits with OO.o's features and code structure. OO.o can easily support this format because it was made *for* OO.o. MS, on the other hand, would have to jump through all kinds of hoops to force their apps to support OpenDocument. And for what purpose? To support a format of competing product with tiny fraction of MS Office's userbase? Developers of other non-OO.o apps are willing to jump through the hoops to support what is essentially OO.o's format because they don't have the userbase that MS Office does, and don't have the responsibility to support the features on which that large userbase relies.

      And yes, I know that the OASIS committee invited Microsoft to have input in OpenDocument format, but why should Microsoft jump thru hoops (both technical and political) to shoehorn their features into a format designed with a competing product in mind? "Hey, Microsoft, we created a new open format for OO.o. We cordially invite you to forcefeed your features into this format."

      Microsoft is the fittest entity to design an XML format for their products just as OO.o (and whatever tokens that are on the OAISIS committee) is the best entity to design an XML format for OO.o. Both are going to be open standards (neither has gone through the ECMA process yet). And Microsoft's initiative isn't solely supported by them, they have others like Apple backing them, that will participate in the ECMA committee that standardizes the Microsoft formats.

      In summary:
      1. Both formats will be open ECMA and ISO standards.
      2. Both formats have *multiple* entities backing them and participating in the ECMA committees standardizing the formats.
      3. OpenDocument was submitted to ECMA on Oct 25, 2005 (so I've read), and Microsoft's will be submitted shortly. It's not like OpenDocument is a longtime well established standard.
      4. Microsoft Office a much much larger userbase that relies on particular MS Office features that are not supported by OpenDocument (or at least not easily or well). It is Microsoft that must transition their large userbase from the old formats to the new, and Microsoft is the appropriate entity to design a format that will drive that transition (by contrast, the OASIS committee has a vested interest in seeing that such a transition NOT go smoothly; meaning they have an incentetive to make OpenDocument clash with MS Office and its feature-set).

      Given the above, forcing Microsoft to support OpenDocument (created with OO.o in mind), rather than Microsoft's own open format (created with MS Office in mind), when Microsoft Office's userbase is orders of magnitude larger than OO.o's woulb be a classic example of "tail wagging the dog."

      --
      -- "I never gave these stories much credence." - HAL 9000
    5. Re:Oh! Oh! I have a question! by Stevyn · · Score: 1

      Good points. I don't understand all the comments wondering "why Microsoft is so stupid not to know what an open format is?" They are doing this simply to buy some time and give the image that they are creating an open and free to use standard. They never truly will because then a lot of people would immediately switch to other office programs to save a few bucks. Microsoft NEEDS office. They need to hold on to the format lock-in that helps them retain their customers.

  32. It has always made me wonder... by Py+to+the+Wiz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why people never even consider that something else exists other than MS Office. It's not just a philosophical argument, everyone I know has ran into problems with a.doc from a different version that doesn't open. It is hard for some people to do work at home, then bring it to work/school and use it! If it's a.doc, it should work in every version of work. The same goes for all the other formats.

    py

    --
    Fight the fall of slashdot by supporting PlayfullyClever in your sig.
    1. Re:It has always made me wonder... by sydneyfong · · Score: 1

      Because there isn't any real alternative to the almighty MS Word, no matter how much we hope otherwise.

      Really, who wants to pay hundreds of $ for every copy of MS word? Considering today's hardware prices, the price of Windows + Office may well be more than the price of the hardware itself...

      OO.o is not there yet, although it's close.
      Abiword lacks the features (and it only takes one important person in your group who can't live without those features for the whole group to abandon it)
      LaTeX is too complicated for the lay user
      PS is for print.

      I haven't used KOffice for a while, but I doubt it's significantly better than OO.o to the extent that it could be a viable competitor to MS word.

      [ Yes, you anti-MS zealots may mod me down ]

      --
      Don't quote me on this.
    2. Re:It has always made me wonder... by Toby_Tyke · · Score: 1

      Why people never even consider that something else exists other than MS Office

      Because they just don't know, and see no reason to find out. The average computer buyer thinks that to write a letter on a PC, you use word. To do your accounts you use Excel. Not a word processor or a spreadsheet, Word and Excel.

      You have to understand, while you and I think this matters, most people simply don't give a flying fuck. They think MS office is all there is. If they want to write things, they don't think "Hmmm, I need a word processor, which one best suits my needs?" They think " I need word".

      You want to know what the best shot OO.o has at increasing it's user base is? Not more features, not open formats, sure as hell not the evangelising of OSS fanatics. No the best shot it has is one simple thing.

      Product activation.

      Every person I know of who has a full copy of MS office at home has pirated it. No kidding. Every_Single_One. If MS comes up with a foolproof, uncrackable form of product activation and, crucially, if they enforce it on the corporate versions, then OO.o has a chance. Once people realise that word is going to cost them a hundred quid a pop, they might well ask if there's a viable alternative. Till then, no chance.

      --
      "I realise this is not a very popular opinion but it's the truth, and there for needs to be said" -Bill Hicks
  33. Deal with Dad...err.. the Devil by queenb**ch · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I tend to agree with the earlier poster who postulates that data and application are two different issues. You should be able to use any application you like to access YOUR data. If the file formats are truly standard, than the best product - open source or otherwise - will win. Features, price point, etc will rule the day. This has NEVER been the Microsoft business model and I think all of here are well aware of it.

    I plan on keeping a rather close eye on this gentleman for quite some time. All politicians lie when their lips move, regardless of party. However, any politican who thinks that anything Microsoft is doing is "good" is immediately suspect, simply because of the legal and ethical track record of the company. Frankly, he's shown me one thing. He's either a fool or a dupe (read "handpuppet"). I say that he's a fool because he's obviously too dense to find some able technical advisors to set him straight. I say that he's a dupe because if he's not a fool and he's knowingly endorsing this, they've already got their hooks in him which makes him a handpuppet. The only question is which category he falls into.

    While he may not be our govenor and this isn't Massachusetts, this *is* Texas. We kill you back. We don't like that sort of thing any better here.

    2 cents,

    Queen B

    --
    HDGary secures my bank :/
    1. Re:Deal with Dad...err.. the Devil by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > While he may not be our govenor and this isn't Massachusetts, this *is* Texas. We kill you back. We don't like that sort of thing any better here.

      Huh? You sound more like a hell bent Yankee transplant living here, *trying* to sound like a native Texan. Instead of running off and frothing at the mouth about Yankee politicians taking kickbacks, it might interest you to know that all our State politicians sleep with the Oil, Agriculture, and Insurance companies here. We're no purer in that sense than any other state. Of course, you would know that had you lived here all your life.

      Leave your high horse and cynicism at the Red river next time. By the way, humility, look it up...

    2. Re:Deal with Dad...err.. the Devil by Thundersnatch · · Score: 1

      Features, price point, etc will rule the day. This has NEVER been the Microsoft business model and I think all of here are well aware of it.

      It used to be the Microsoft business model. WordPerfect and Lotus 1-2-3 were once as dominant as Word and Excel. Microsoft was the up-and-comer trying to do it better and cheaper while maintaining compatibilty with the incumbent. And WP and Lotus tried to block MS by tweaking file formats and application behaviors.

      The same thing is true of Netware. Early versions of Windows NT had all sorts of Netware migration and compatibility tools. Novell, which had like 90% market share for file and print servers, modified things every so often to frustrate Microsoft's compatibility efforts.

      Heck, competition still is the Microsoft business model in market where they are not dominant. One example would be SQL reporting services. This new product is going head-to-head with marletplace bullies Crystal/BusinessObjects & Cognos. They're providing conversion utilities for Crystal reports at the least, and a good portion of the functionality for a fraction of the price.

      The "big guys" always try to screw the little guy in any competitive market. That's the way of the world. And yes, that includes Google.

  34. OMG don't hack my bank account! by ichigo+2.0 · · Score: 1

    Hey, your user number is the same as my bank account number you insensitive clod!

  35. Re:I'm not surprised; was "suprised" by SeventyBang · · Score: 5, Informative



    My ongoing post about Microsoft, MS Office, and the XML Format.

    I post it every time this topic comes up and people keep forgetting it.

    The last time was Nov. 21:

    They're opening their file formats because they still has a trump card (the XML Format Patent). Or has everone forgotten about this?

    A quick patch or two to Microsoft Office (now one of their biggest or the biggest ca$h cow - 1/3 of their profits?) and MS Office suddenly reads|writes XML format only. They aren't about castrating themselves voluntarily. They still have shareholders to keep happy, but more importantly, they want to be the trendsetters, no matter what.[1]

    How does this impact Open Office? Open Office can then read the XML Format because it's declared in the patent. But what O^2 won't be able to do is write the MS Office XML Format [except to violate the patent]. This means: no interoperability and any business which wants to migrate away from a closed system (MS Office) to Open Office can do so only as a one-way trip, burning the bridge behind them. And the company can't communicate both directions, so that forces a move en masse. Corporations do not do this.

    They may not be making the right decisions, but Billy G has it covered:

    "Success is a lousy teacher. It convinces smart people they can't lose."

    p.s.

    Remember, Office Live is still coming down the road and it's going to play a role in this as well.

    ______________________________________________
    [1] They don't want to become what IBM became: an also-ran. They keep stopping to catch their breath, thinking they've got time to rest and the rest of the world keeps moving forward. They haven't learned their lesson. Their first online work was with Compu$erve because they didn't know anything about the Internet (this was up to the release of Win95). They did official support on Compu$erve of all things because of unfamliarity and it wasn't until Bill's "Annual Two Week Summer Sabbatical" he realized they were about to be dealt out of the future. Eventually, he learned eough to say, "I don't care what the Information Superhighway looks like as long as I have a tollbooth on it." Over time, they've attempted to grow from desktops and rise up to the Internet. Google has started at the Internet and spread out. This week's BusinessWeek cover: "Googling for Gold: A market cap over $120B. $8B in cash. Plus 5 billionaires. 1'000 millionaires. No wonder dealmakers, VCs, and brokers are clamoring for a piece of the action." When was the last time you heard this much buzz about Microsoft? Microsoft would love to think Google is a fad. Just as IBM used to have corporate singalongs, I think Microsoft has a ritual. The inner circle gets together every morning and they collectively put skid marks in their shorts. And if at any time during the day they stop, pause & loose their focus, that squishy feel and smell yanks them back to reality and reminds them they may think they're #1, but it's only because they had a head start and it's not doing them much good very much longer. Another thing I've said before: listen to Ballmer when he speaks or look for quotes when it's in print. You will hear him refer to Google in one way and one way only: search engine . This is intentional. Remember, marketing is Microsoft's strongest advantage in the business world. He wants all of the suits^w decision makers in the business world to adopt this mantra: "Why pay so much attention and money to a search engine? There are lots of search engines on the market and any day now, someone's going to come along with a better search engine than Google and we'll have spent time, effort, and money on an also-ran." You don't hear about him spending money, just Bill & Paul (Allen). Steve's got billions himself, but he's in it for the ego rush. He also knows if he slips, even a little, he'll be known in Trivial Pursuit, the Internet Edition, as the guy who let Microsoft slide from #1.

  36. modded down? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think you may be onto something, possibly you discovered Ballmers favorite ice cream?

  37. Xtensive Marketing Language by FishandChips · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The whole thing is a farce. Microsoft aren't going to implement open formats because if they did their business would take a monster hit. At the same time, they aren't going to tell the truth and say so because they daren't risk alienating yet more people and, besides, they know which way the popular wind is blowing. What is it with these guys that no matter what happens, they simply cannot tell anything straight?

    So we are subjected to this grim charade, which might just be enough to put Massachusetts and others back in their box and prevent a domino effect. Meanwhile, behind closed doors, the dirty work of persuasion continues with (metaphorically speaking, of course) a sap in one hand a a wad of $100 bills in the other.

    Really, if Microsoft were Pinocchio, they'd be having to employ a train of footmen to carry their nose in front of them, and give ten minutes' warning of a sneeze so that a team could struggle down the line with a kerchief the size of a parachute. I know it's unreasonable to treat every Microsoft proposal as suspect. Alas, though, experience suggests that it usually is.

    --
    Las qué passoun
    tournoun pas maï
    1. Re:Xtensive Marketing Language by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

      Bingo.

      The only thing I disagree with is this: "I know it's unreasonable to treat every Microsoft proposal as suspect."

      At this point I think it's entirely reasonable, even prudent, to treat every Microsoft proposal not just as suspect, but as outright hostile, until definitively proven otherwise. I can't remember the last time I saw something come out of that company that didn't have an angle or a hook buried in it somewhere, or give me the vague feeling that they were out to screw me as a consumer down the road.

      Microsoft is a shark, and we are all minnows. Just because we play along today doesn't mean they won't try and have us for breakfast tomorrow. No matter what they do, or what they say, it doesn't change what they are.

      (And for the record I don't even think they're 'playing along' today -- this open formats business is a ridiculous farce, as even a blind man should be able to see; what remains now is whether the politicians will realize it.)

      --
      "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
    2. Re:Xtensive Marketing Language by Shotgun · · Score: 1

      What is it with these guys that no matter what happens, they simply cannot tell anything straight?

      So we are subjected to this grim charade, which might just be enough to put Massachusetts and others back in their box and prevent a domino effect.


      You probably noticed, but in case you didn't...you answered your own question 8*)

      --
      Aah, change is good. -- Rafiki
      Yeah, but it ain't easy. -- Simba
  38. Documention for generating or rendering? by Biff+Stu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not sure that you get the problem. I haven't looked through everything on the site you linked, but I did find the document from MS on EMF; it's in the form of a Microsoft help file. This makes me suspect that these documents focus on how to format an emf graphic for display on a Windows box and how to call the Windows emf rendering engine from your program on a Windows box. If so, I'm sure that there's plenty of documentation on how to do that. The problem is the reverse. As far as I know, the only effective emf rendering engine out there is the one embedded into the Windows OS. Getting reliable emf files to render on other OS's is not so easy. Take Office for Mac for example. MS supplies an emf rendering engine, but half the time the results are complete garbage.

    I work for a company that provides research to the government. Many of our documents contain plots of data. In order to keep file sizes manageable, these are embedded as vector graphics. Yes, we could use Postscript with a low-res bitmapped preview and they would print nicely on a Postscript printer. However, our customers typically want WYSISYG performance and they don't necessarily want to be locked into Postscript printers. Furthermore, you can't put Postscript graphics into Powerpoint. (Well, you can, but all you see is the low-res bitmapped preview.) Therefore, if much of this work is to be viewed correctly, the government is locked into Windows. To make matters worse, this lock-in is being supported with your tax dollars. (Assuming that you're an American; if not, your government probably has the same problem anyhow.) What we need as part of an open document standard is an embedded vector graphics standard that will display on Windows boxes running Office and *nix boxes running alternative software. In order for that to happen, MS will need to provide WYSIWYG support for something besides EMF in its Office applications.

  39. Re:Yep. Same old Same old. by serverleader · · Score: 1

    that's why Google is going to take over :s... is kind of scary now that I think about it.

    --
    - - - - - . .. . - Get Counted!
  40. Gonna have to change the standard by codepunk · · Score: 1

    Well then MA is going to have to change their current standard for a format to be considered open. Anyone listening to the hearings knows that one of the criteria is that the format be open to everyone for revision and input. In this case the format is controlled by a single vendor and fails that point miserably.

    I am sure however that given some crooked politics and a little money thrown in the right places that may be revised.

    --


    Got Code?
  41. Reading the covenant carefully by einhverfr · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It may be compatible with some FOSS licenses (Apache License, for example) but it may not be compatible with the GPL. I.e. the covenant places an additional restriction that the party using the patented inventions not sue Microsoft or any affiliate (read: anybody) over patent violations in these schemas. RMS has said that similar language in the Apache license makes it incompatible with the GPL v2, so maybe Microsoft is trying to select against the GPL in terms of its formats?

    --

    LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    1. Re:Reading the covenant carefully by man_of_mr_e · · Score: 1

      This is similar to wording in the Sun patent covenant. Why is that GPL compatible if this isn't? From the Sun covenant:

      "Notwithstanding the commitment above, Sun's covenant shall not apply and Sun makes no assurance, covenant or commitment not to assert or enforce any or all of its patent rights against any individual, corporation or other entity that asserts, threatens or seeks at any time to enforce its own or another party's U.S. or foreign patents or patent rights against any OpenDocument Implementation."

    2. Re:Reading the covenant carefully by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 2, Informative

      Its GPL incompatible not because of that, but because its nontransferable. If the right ti sell software using the schemas cannot be transferred to any and all users of that software its not GPL v1 compatible, much less GPL v2.

    3. Re:Reading the covenant carefully by einhverfr · · Score: 1

      IANAL, but I don't think Sun's covenant is either.

      However, for Sun to distribute OOo, they have to guarantee that they will not place additional restrictions on people to use, modify, and redistribute the software under the GPL. So I would think that OOo would be redistributable based on grounds other than Sun's covenant.

      --

      LedgerSMB: Open source Accounting/ERP
    4. Re:Reading the covenant carefully by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Its GPL incompatible not because of that, but because its nontransferable. If the right ti sell software using the schemas cannot be transferred to any and all users of that software its not GPL v1 compatible, much less GPL v2.

      Doesn't that make it incompatible with any FOSS license ? After all, they all give the end user a right to distribute the software and any modifications to others under the same license he received it - that is the very idea of FOSS.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  42. Larry Rosen says otherwise by ChipMonk · · Score: 1

    In fact, right here on Slashdot, very early this morning.

    It will be interesting watching this one play out.

  43. The ambiguity is good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    they limit the covenant to "patent claims necessary to conform" without defining what constitures conformance or necessity in this context.

    Ambiguity favors the people accepting the contract. Microsoft's license is a Contract of Adhesion. This means courts generally interpret any ambiguity contra preferentem (in favor of the people who did not write the contract).

  44. Reminds me of Sender ID by Schraegstrichpunkt · · Score: 1

    cf. the Sender ID fiasco.

  45. It wouldnt matter if it was released under the GPL by Dan_Bercell · · Score: 1
    People would still criticize it and make comments like 'Its not open enough, we need the previous versions!'

    Of course there will be provisions if Microsoft claims to 'open' something to the world, unlike Sun (Star Office) they dont have a dying product, thus releasing "Open Source Office" is bad business and does not benifit them in anyway.

    No other company as ever give away a billion dollar a year product, does anyone really think Microsoft would be the first one?

  46. Re:Perish the though! by ClamIAm · · Score: 1

    Competition is for those poor saps who can't buy legislation and fat government contracts! Microsoft is above them.

  47. Re:I'm not surprised; was "suprised" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When a footnote is longer than the piece of writing, you've got a problem. It's kind of like having a title longer than your paper (something I tried once in high school).

  48. Re:I'm not surprised; was "suprised" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Footnotes longer than the article aren't that unusual in legal writing. Well, I suppose that does prove your point though. . .

  49. Re:Even M$ Can't Afford To Lose The Office Monopol by XMode · · Score: 1

    And I dont know what M$ is worried about. Office is actualy pretty good. Well, 2000 was pretty good. It became the defacto standard becaise it was better than anything else. People (businesses) will keep using it even if 1001 other apps could use the same file format, because it does what they want and has the support of a huge megacorp behind it.

  50. Re:It wouldnt matter if it was released under the by Jussi+K.+Kojootti · · Score: 2, Insightful
    You should understand that the rest of us are talking about a document format, not the Office software license...

    If their product is superior, it will stay on top even without the format lock-in.

  51. MS Open Xml Example document by seweso · · Score: 0

    I found a sample Word document in the new Open Xml format:

    <xml><![CDATA[ÐÏà±áÿ!ÿÿÿBla bla blaoutÿNormal.dotÿUnknownÿÿutÐMicrosoft Word 9.@@õÅ@õÅÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ±áÿ!ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ õÅ@ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿMicrosoft Word-document±±±MSWordDoc±±Word.Document.8ÿô9qÿÿÿÿ ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿõÅ@õÅ@ÿÿ ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿõÅ@õÅ@ÿÿõÅ@ÿÿÿÿÿÿÿÿ]]></xml>

  52. Microsoft's 'standard' promise by KiviPall · · Score: 2, Informative

    from pcpro.co.uk>

    Sun Microsystems is urging the state of Massachusetts not to be swayed by Microsoft's submission of Office XML to the Ecma standards body.

    In a letter sent to Secretary Trimarco, Massachusetts Executive Office of Administration and Finance, Sun's head of corporate standards, Carl Cargill, outlines his concerns over Microsoft's recent move. ....

    While Microsoft has promised to submit its work to Ecma, Cargill emphasises that promises alone should not replace existing open standards.

    'Just as an agency would not purchase a product before its actual availability,' writes Cargill, 'so too would it be a mistake to rely on a single vendor's promise to submit a new product to a standards body at some point in the future. The Commonwealth owes no less to its taxpaying citizens.'

    For more, read:
    Sun warns caution over Microsoft's 'standard' promise

  53. MS cutting it's own fingers by kwikrick · · Score: 1

    Assuming it will be possible to read MS XML schemas with other word processors such as OpenOffice.org, but it will not be possible to write. Then migrating from MS to open source should be easy. One can still read one's old documents, and new docs created with MS. And even if MS isn't going to support the open document standard, everyone can read your documents, simply by downloading OpenOffice.org. But nobody is going to migrate to MS, because that would mean not everyone can read your documents and perhaps not even read the open document formats. And the more people migrate away from MS, the stronger these effects will become. There is only one conclusion: MS will lose this battle in the long run.

    --
    assignment != equality != identity
  54. ECMA by tchernobog · · Score: 1
    Believing in an ECMA standard is like believing to a restaurant rating on the Michelin Guide.
    In other words, ECMA is driven by industry leaders. How can you be sure they aren't eager to swallow everything MS and its pockets throws at them? Just the same with IEEE...
    This is not the case for ISO and IEC standards, for example (which have other problems anyway, see the SUN/Java affair...).

    And don't even think to cite JavaScript (ECMAScript), please...

    --
    42.
  55. Whatever happened to embrace, extend & extingu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Embrace dammit. Come on, would you just embrace already!

  56. Where are the MS shills? by lurch_ss · · Score: 1

    Has anyone else noticed that no one in any of these posts is defending Microsoft except for those that are confusing open standards and open source?

    Could it be that not even the Microsoft fan boys can defend this particular piece of FUD?

  57. Re:It wouldnt matter if it was released under the by Dan_Bercell · · Score: 1
    I understand what the issue is, however I read through of the posts before reply to this message and I came to the conclusion that most people didnt understand what Microsoft is doing and why. Thus my reply subject: 'It wouldnt matter if it was released under the GPL'. The point of my reply is that MS can try to help other businesses / Increase sales by releasing their format, but they dont have to GIVE their format to the public, its just plan bad business and wouldnt make sense.

    If their product is superior, it will stay on top even without the format lock-in,

    Of course their product is superior, however if it was released I am sure Wordperfect would gain some market share, depending on how they played their cards. This would probably be a reason why Microsoft has some limitations on the way they release the format.

  58. Mac WMF Examples, Please? by Kadin2048 · · Score: 1

    > 2. WMF is well understood and many Mac apps support it.

    Would you like to support that statement with some evidence, perhaps?

    I have yet to see any Mac application that provides good WMF support. As other people have pointed out, even MS' own implementation (used in MS Word Mac and Powerpoint Mac) sucks terribly, and has a tendency to display garbage/white boxes/etc. in place of graphics.

    If there are other software packages out there that have better support for it, I'd love to know what they are. I'm not aware of any though.

    --
    "Ladies and gentlemen, my killbot features Lotus Notes and a machine gun. It is the finest available."
  59. Re:I'm not surprised; was "suprised" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the famous chapter in Allan Sherman's "Rape of the A*P*E" treatise. That particular chapter contains one word; the rest is a footnote on that particular word.

  60. Standards? by Chris+Bradshaw · · Score: 1
    Perhaps if certian software vendor(s) were a little more cooperative as far as standards go, things would be different for OO.o?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenDocument

    --
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