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E-Tracking May Change the Way You Drive
frdmfghtr writes "ZDNet.com is running a story about a runaway idea of a tracking automobiles via GPS. Not to be confused with the Canadian project geared towards anti-speeding ideas, this one does in fact have the goal of tracking your vehicle. 'The U.S. Department of Transportation has been handing millions of dollars to state governments for GPS-tracking pilot projects designed to track vehicles wherever they go. So far, Washington state and Oregon have received fat federal checks to figure out how to levy these 'mileage-based road user fees.' However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court order."
This just means my car will get a tin foil hat, too...
This is a great idea, it would help with drunk drivers, crimes, and speeding. If you dont have anything to hide you really shouldnt be against it. This would definetly be great for the police who are trying to track a stolen car or track down someone who has just murdered someone. The possibilities are limitless.
Here
SealBeater
-- Its survival of the fittest...and we got the fucking guns!!!
mileage-based road user fees.
Didn't we pay taxes to build the roads in the first place? Will these fees be accompanied by the reduction of taxes, since they are getting transportation funding elsewhere?
This could be useful in figuring out which roads need expansion, and it could help with traffic routing. Imagine the effect on stoplights. They'll know which way has the biggest backup, etc. Of course, they could do most of this non-invasively.
Of course, this'll be touted as an anti-theft thing or something, and everyone will jump all over it.
> However, the article goes on to talk about how there is no provision in place to
> prevent the uncontrolled surveillance of motorists without a court order.
Cue the "well if you're not doing anything wrong you have nothing to worry about" government apologists.
As an avid cyclist, I'd love to assume it will end at user fees. But just because that's what the system is designed for doesn't mean that's how this stuff will end up.
If this kind of thing goes live I'd say that it's just a matter of time before some desperate politician campaigns on turning this into an "anti-terrorism" device... similar tracking systems are already in place for trains and (obviously) airplanes. Between this and RFID I'd say that it's just a matter of time until either the government or our employer knows our location (give or take a couple meters) 24/7.
(Yes, I am paranoid.. thanks for pointing that out)
We already have mileage based tracking without GPS. It's called an odometer.
In states with annual inspections, it's trivial to record odometer readings too, and tax based on that.
I've had enough abrasive sigs. Kittens are cute and fuzzy.
use their $sys$gpscloak.
Why not just check the odometer? Most if not all cars have odometers, and few people tamper with them. Most drivers could simply get their mileage checked whenever they have their vehicle inspected and/or renew the vehicle's license plates. Any taxes based on emissions could be assessed on fuel rather than based on mileage. I could drive my car 45 mph to my parents and take 20 hours and use far less gas than my friend who drives there at 80 mph in 12 hours.
I'll be your candy shop of infinite deliciousity if you'll be my discotheque of endless rump-shaking.
I thought criminals we're supposed to be one revolution ahead of the law.
:/
Guess not
...insomuch as it proved a right fiasco in Germany, who now "plans to [scrap the idea and] reintroduce a sticker system for collecting tolls, which it had abandoned last August."
But then again, Americans can succeed where others have failed.
cant they?
Why shouldn't those who use a public facility more be also forced to pay more?
It seems pretty straightforward to me.
Of course. But why implement a huge, complex and expensive tracking system when there is an existing mechanism to charge road users based on usage?
It's called a gas tax. You drive more, you pay more tax. Simple and efficient. If you want to get a little fancier, the DMV charges more to register heavy vehicles (which damage the road more) than lighter vehicles.
The only reason to have this GPS system is to track the population, and they're trying to sell it as a "road-usage" fee.
It's almost time to vote from the rooftops.
"But yes, it is in the constitution that they can't do that, so it shouldn't be allowed. But that's the only reason against it."
Actually, it is not expressly protected, and courts have (in a round about way) ruled against citizens in related cases. However, if it was protected by the Constitution, it should not be reduced to "the only reason," because, in the US, that's a big reason.
"It's not like your wife can log into the satellites and find out you've got a gay lover."
Obviously not, but they did mention the information being subpoenaed, which is quite possible and would have similar results.
"The only bad thing about it is, it's against the constitution."
Again, it's not against the Constitution under its current interpretation, but if it is found to be in the courts, it won't be for some trivial reason. You say this as though if it was not in the Constitution, people would have no problem with it, but that is not the situation at all.
Odometers can be run back a bit (not recommended) if you want (between inspections). Also, they don't say where the driving took place. If I live in West Virginia and commute to DC, I'm using Virginia's roads, but West Virginia is the one charging me under your plan.
(I actually live in Virginia and have the roads clogged by the aforementioned commuters)
How do they propose to install one of these devices in any of my vehicles??
There will be no such device ever installed in any vehicle I ever own.
BTW, all of my vehicles are over 20 years old and long ago fully paid for in full.
They'll have just as much luck installing one of these things in my vehicle as they will inserting a RFID chip under my skin.
Not only is this completely unnecessary but let me get one thing straight. We do not have the right to abuse our power as citizens but the government has the power to go beyond it's boundaries and watch our every move? What is this bull. There is no point in monitoring someone's progress in car. In order to solve a problem you need to find the root cause of it. If you want us traveling at a slow 50-mph then there should be no cars in the united states which can go beyond that limit. So why do we still see GTO's, Porsche and other cars which are never designed to go just at 50MPH. Your wasting money on this crap. Also GPS cannot work where it does not get a signal. So in some states this would simply be useless. For then you come up with another thing out of your @@@ which is less reliable than the other. Good Job. Keep screwing us over.
And you care if the police know your location... why?
Because there are quite a few laws in this great nation which I (occasionally) ignore. I speed, I drink* (not at the same time, mind you), smoke illicit drugs... I don't feel I do any of these things in a reckless manner, and feel that my behavior is in line with the American spirit of freedom.
The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.' In short, I have no fear of being called a terrorist.. at worst I could be labeled a drug addict, unfortunately that would be enough to land me in jail (no voting rights, no freedom).
* a criminal offense because I'm not 21...
I'm sorry as great as this would be for road planning, we have horrible, congested roads where I live, and other important and completely valid projects. I just have trust issues with the local, federal, and state governments. I don't want to put more of my rights within their immediate control. Whether or not they actually act on their newfound abilities doesn't really matter. What matters to me is that if I had a GPS in my car and they were actively tracking me there is the POTENTIAL for abuse. As I said, I don't want to give a group of governments I do not trust the tools they need to infringe upon my rights down the road.
No offense friend, but you trust the Government too much. Haven't you learned anything from 1984? Could you ever imagine technology like this if Hitler was in power, after all, he was elected. I think people think just because they live in what they believe to be a free Country, such as America, that you are immune to these types of realities. No me, no way, I'll walk.
The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.'
You'll still be able to exercise you're free will. You'll just be punished in accordance with the law whenever you do something that breaks it. There are no parantheses around crime. If the law says it's illegal, it's a crime.
The problem with law enforcement agencies becoming more efficient with enforcing laws, is up until now they haven't been able to get TOO efficient. So people haven't cared too much about things being illegal.
How about instead of attacking the law enforcement agencies for trying to do their job (protect and serve the people by enforcing the laws their representatives enact on behalf of their constitutents), you work towards changing the laws? But then again, that's much more difficult. It's much easier to simply break the law, and hope you don't get caught.
[Fuck Beta]
o0t!
the uk's plans stems from the when more and more vehicles use alternative fuels, its easy to stick 70%+ tax on petrol/gas but they can't tax electricity by the same amounts (i hope)As soon as the system is in place it will be abused by those in power or by people with the responsibility to run it or most probably both.If you've got nothing to hide you haven't looked hard enough yet
Then you need to get out more!
Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam possit materiari?
One great thing about having this power in the hands of the police, is that the police are always people you can trust. Same with the FBI. There aren't any corrupt cops, police power is never used discretionarily to harass people the local police doesn't like (or for that matter, political enemies of the federal government). As government agencies, they also have data security second to none! Just like the DMV, no-one will be able to misuse this information!
Sounds great all around!
Unless plan on buying pre-2002 tires for the rest of your life, you are already being tracked by RFID'ish tags. This was put into law a while ago, tire manufacturers don't publicize it: http://www.underreported.com/modules.php?op=modloa d&name=News&file=article&sid=702
Yeah, who the hell flushed the toilet twice at city hall yesterday??? Oops... it's the mayor.
thing is, they already do this-- it's called the fuel tax. The only benefit the GPS solution has over the fuel tax is that big brother gets to track your every move.
The theory of relativity doesn't work right in Arkansas.
I just read with comments set to level 1. It was alarming: many of the people in the low-ranked comments are in support of this idea. These are your fellow citizens!
If there is some sort of plan to turn Americans into a passive, watched population, it's working. People actively want to be spied upon. It makes them feel "safer."
If you, like me, think this is a step toward the loss of our valuable ideals of freedom, you sure as hell had better start speaking up. These gullible, frightened people are driving our government. We need to stop them and the only way to accomplish that is to become more politically active.
--
Don't like it? Respond with words, not karma.
Other governments around the world have been looking at this for some time now, I know here in the UK we drivers live in fear of Her Majesties Government trying to introduce such a scheme. Further details of the UK progress of this system can be found in the BBC news article linked to below...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/uk_news/3903347.stm
The ability to exercise my free will as mentioned above would be rendered impossible were the government able to watch my every move, convict me of my every 'crime.' In short, I have no fear of being called a terrorist.. at worst I could be labeled a drug addict, unfortunately that would be enough to land me in jail (no voting rights, no freedom).
I notice in this thread that everybody supporting privacy mentions doing so because of petty crimes they commit.
What's important to understand is *why* the concept of privacy is so classically important. Originally, we weren't a nation of laws, at all. Crimes were "against the people" and it was up to a jury of one's peers to decide if a crime had been committed, and if so, of what nature, and what the punishment should be.
Privacy was assumed, because you didn't commit a crime unless you injured somebody else in some way - either personally, or their property. Are you going to go to a jury and try to get them to arrest you for smoking a bit o' weed? Popping pills? Beating your horse? Where's the crime, if nobody gets hurt?
This all changed just after the Civil War, where the jury system fell flat on its face due to widespread racism, mostly in the south. How would a black fella get a fair trial in a matter involving a dispute with a white folk? Either 1) Jurors are white, in which case he'd hang for blowing snot on the boss' hankie, or 2) Jurors are black, so he gets off scott-free.
So, offenses and penalties were codified, and state constitutions all over the place were altered, introducing this new "Penal Code" that everybody was suppposed ta follow.
In this Penal Code, crimes were ratified as laws of the state, and had clear, definite actions to commit that were considered crimes, and penalties were clearly and definitely stated.
This is perhaps one of the biggest expansions of US Govt powers in its history - far, far greater than the DMCA, and the PATRIOT acts put together! It has resulted in a burgeoning swarm of laws, rules, regulations, and silly exceptions, as well as an entire horde of busy lawyers and paralegals.
Now, people worry about committing crimes without any directly hurt party, and a state busy executing its rights to your health. Introduce socialized health-care and/or health insurance, and suddenly, smoking clove ciggies costs other insured parties quite a bit of money. Now, hurting yourself DOES hurt somebody else, and there are numerous state/federal laws above and beyond the obvious.
Once laws are codified, they don't go away. It's rare that a govornment willfully reduces the laws on the books!
I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
Aren't gas taxes basically a pay-per-use fee for motorists for infrustructure building?
Gas taxes have the advantage of being anonymous, plus they promote lower gas-usage vehicles. The only reason I can think that anybody would consider using GPS in favor of simply taxing fuel is that they want to LOWER the taxes on gas, thus prices at the pump. You lower gas prices, and you're GUARANTEED to get re-elected.
m
Would you mind if plainclothes police officers followed you everywhere you went, for no particular reason than that you might commit a crime somewhere?
It's an extremely rare person who has never broken a law in his life. Never once jaywalked, went a mile/km an hour over the speed limit, passed on the right, changed lanes a little too soon after the last one, dropped a piece of paper and watched as it fluttered away out of reach...
If they police want to catch me doing something, then they can put eyes on me, not a GPS. If I see lights in my mirror, I'll pull over. If I see a government-sanctioned GPS on my car, then it will get blocked. It's their problem to figure out how -- especially since they'll need eyes on it to do so.
For that matter, cops will often look the other way on minor things. Someone going 5mph over the speed limit on the freeway is probably not going to get stopped. Someone parked just slightly outside of the lines is likely to get leeway. And if it was an honest mistake, the person might just get a warning instead of a citation. Automated systems do not allow for judgement calls that might take into account mitigating factors.
Cops have a rough life. One of my high school classmates is a cop. I grew up down the street from a SWAT officer, who had to retire after a leg wound from a gunfight with a suspect left him unable to run quickly enough. I admire what they do, and I defer to them. I don't argue the issue, and I treat them honestly and with respect. But that doesn't mean that I'm going to spill my entire life to them.
You can never go home again... but I guess you can shop there.
The initial impetus for this was alternate fuel vehicles. An electric car you plug in at home now pays no road taxes like a car at the pump. The same goes for propane or natural gas vehicles you fill at home. As vehicles go away from filling at a gas pump that collects taxes per gallon another model is needed.
Coming up with the mechanism for billing by gallon, watt, therm, amp, whatever and separating what you use in your car vs what you use in the oven isn't practical. So to assign the taxes based on use mileage ( or even "hours on the road" ) needs to be figured out. It's got to happen.
Even with an odometer, a mechanism taxing for mileage by state would be needed. Especially with the smaller states in the northeast where people live in one, work in one and transit a third to get to work each day. As long as you're figuring out which state you might as well figure out things like toll roads, bridges and time of day congestion usage.
It's going to be GPS. Anything else requires a more elaborate infrastructure.
What it doesn't have to be is privacy-hostile. Rather than uploading your entire driving history, the "road tax road map" could be uploaded into the unit in the vehicle. With the schedule of tariffs for your particular vehicle onboard, all you really need to reveal is the taxes owed. No need to reveal whether you went 1000 miles in a high-congestion area or 10,000 miles of night time interstate driving, just that you owe $5.95 in taxes. ( Expect this to be used as a by-use insurance tool as well)
There has to be a way to have drivers pay for use of the roads. Ideally we won't be limited to gasoline engines, so charging $ per gallon won't always work. An alternative is needed. Arguing about privacy impacts of a GPS receiver in the car is fine, and appropriate. But better would be to come up with a viable alternative to bill users for road use that is independent from fuel delivery.
In the field of computing, this would be called spyware. Do you want spyware?
The jurisdiction I live in has HUGE taxes on gasoline. So yeah, you're right.
We already have a very effective user-pay program in place without GPS. The license and registration fees paid each year are _nothing_ compared to the non-stop user fees paid when filling up.
The more I drive, the more I pay. - If the gas taxes were being used for highway safety or maintenance rather than going into general revenue, I'd feel a little less screwed by the whole process...
http://request-header.info
Maybe you don't have a reason to care, but lots and lots of your fellow citizens do have reasons.
Anything like this would be likely to have security leaks. Probably big ones. So what if someone with $1000 in hand could find out where your car is right now? Let's say it's:
1. Your ex-spouse, who has a grudge, a temper, and a .44 magnum.
2. The leader of the gang whose homey was just sentenced for a robbery that you were a witness to.
3. That person you met in the bar last week who just won't leave you alone.
4. The burglary ring who's looking for people more than 500 miles from home so they can have a nice cup of tea and a sit down while they are stripping your digs.
I'm sure everyone has other examples. And, by the way, not every person in law enforcement is unfailing honest and upright. Sometimes they fit right into scenarios like those above. Or worse. Just Google ' "Ramparts Division" Scandal' for an example.
And you care if the police know your location... why?
Because the police have been known to judge guilt by association based on a person's location. 1960s monitoring of groups with unpopular politics comes to mind, as does 1970s enemies lists.
It's easier for a government to crush dissent when it knows where the journalists are.
Try being a whistleblower on government impropriety when the government knows the location of every automobile to which you have access.
Good luck attending a meeting of the Sons of Liberty when King George has GPS tracking devices on your horses. Attention! The horse of suspected traitor REVERE, PAUL has shown up on the console as moving west from Boston. Stop and detain.
If you think the use of data from mandatory GPS units in privately-owned automobiles would be limited to collecting "user fees," you're being incredibly naive. Some well-meaning legislator would next decide that we ought to be keeping tabs on where sex offenders are going during school hours. Someone else will decide that we ought to know where people convicted of multiple DUIs are going.
Respect the temptation that power gives to well-meaning men. Respect the likelihood that given enough power, any of us would become a tyrant. Limit the power you, as a sovereign citizen, give to your fellow man.
Please post your full, real name, home, school/work, and cell phone numbers, unaltered email addresses, home and school/work address, job title, vehicle descriptions and license plate numbers, and a link to a recent photograph of yourself.
Or, admit that privacy has its benefits after all.
To fight the war on terror, stop being afraid.
This case dealt with a cell phone as the technology used to track, so what. The technology used is irrelevant. A person is being tracked without a warrant, that's illegal.
I was told once by a cop, that if you follow some one long enough, they will eventualy commit a trafic violation. It maybe something as minor as not using a turn signal or failing to signal within the required distance the law dictates before you turn.
With this in mind, If i had it in for you, I could always find out were you were and then cite you for enought violations you license points out and get suspended oryour insurance get so expensive you cannot affors it anymore. If i was going to do somethign like this, I would target those with different political opinions or ideas that threaten my livleyhood. Maybe i would get borred and target minorities or just church goers. Maybe even the parrents of the child that beat mine up over a game of marbles at school the previous week. How about just screwing with someone who i gave a ticket to and they got out of it because i made a mistake.
The idea of using this to make sure road use taxes are being paid is idiotic. The fact is you pay your road use taxes when you buy a gallon of gasoline. You also contibute when the vehicle is registared and when you buy tires (yes there is a DOT fee on tires hidden in the price) As for big trucks or comercial vehicles, Well this is also taken car of with IFTA reporting and regular audits. Each shipper reports thier shipments so cariors cannot fudge the report. IFTA rules regulate you pay usage on Five mile to the gallon for class eight vehicles (even if you get better milage It changes acording the the use and weight of the vehicle) and every gallong of fuel except that marked for offroad use (noted with a die in the fuel) have the tax already in place when purchased. The drivers report the miles driving in thier log book, the company reports milage in thier IFTA statemnts or routing reports and also when reporting thier income statments as well as tax deductions. The states track comercial vehicles entering and leaving states as well as different parts of the states. Fuel reciept also track were the vehicle has been and is regularly availible to inspecters (fuel card transactions).
You even pay road tax to mow your lawn in most cases. The idea that a car might be driving too much without paying is a load bull. This is just some lame excuse to invade what was normaly considerd private. The problem is more fuel eficient vehicles and alternative fuel vehicles are using less fuel or fuel that isn't being taxed. This can be easily corected by charging a higher fuel tax at the pump or increase registration fees for vehicles that get more milage. For some reason the government want to know were you are, were you were and what time you were there.
Most people will look at the conditions of the roads around them and think this is neccesary. The problem is that road use money is being diverted from the roads and used for other things. Installing these devices are not going to fix that or the roads. It is only going to cost money and allow more money to be diverted.
Are currently called gasoline taxes. I don't want (need, care for, encourage, etc.) another tax on automobiles. If more tax revenues are needed, raise the taxes as they stand. Don't involve my privacy!
TOP SECRET FACT:Most modern cars have tracking transponders ALREADY!
:
:
: ...but the shocking link finally died in July 2004 and the new location 2005 does not have a photo of a RFID bridge underpass RFID database collector. But this 20005 link below does discuss their toll booth RFID tracking uses...
Spy transmission chips embedded in tires that can be read REMOTELY while driving.
A secret initiative exists to track all funnel-points on interstates and US borders for car tire ID transponders (RFID chips embedded in the tire).
Yup. My brother works on them (since 2001).
The us gov T.R.E.A.D. act (which passed) made it illegal to sell new passenger cars lacking untamperable RFID in the tires allowing efficient scanning of moving cars.
Your tires have a passive coil with 64 to 128 bit serial number emitter in them! (AIAG B-11 ADC v3.0) . A particular frequency energizes it enough so that a receiver can read its little ROM. A ROM which in essence is your GUID for your TIRE. Multiple tires do not confuse the readers. Its almost identical to all "FastPass" "SpeedPass" technologies you see on gasoline keychain dongles and commuter windshield sticker-chips. The US gov has secretly started using these chips to track people.
Its kind of like FBI "Taggants" in fertilizer and "Taggants" in Gasoline and Bullets, and Blackpowder. But these car tire transponder Ids are meant to actively track and trace movement of your car.
Taggant chemical research papers
http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/ ~ota/disk3/1980/8017/801705.PDF
(remove spaces in url from slashcode if needed)
I am not making this up. Melt down a high end Firestone, or Bridgestone tire and go through the bits near the rim (sometimes at base of tread) and you will locate the transmitter (similar to 'grain of rice' pet ids and Mobile SpeedPass, but not as high tech as the tollbooth based units). Sokymat LOGI 160, and Sokymat LOGI 120 transponder buttons are just SOME of the transponders found in modern high end car tires. The AIAG B-11 Tire tracking standard is now implemented for all 3rd party transponder manufactures [covered below].
It is for QA and to prevent fraud and "car theft", but the US Customs service uses it in Canada to detect people who swap license plates on cars when doing a transport of contraband on a mule vehicle that normally has not logged enough hours across the border. The customs service and FBI do not yet talk about this, and are starting using it soon.
Photos of tracking chips before molded deep into tires!
http://www.sokymat.com/index.php?id=94
PLEASE LOOK AT THAT LINK : Its the same shocking tire material I have been trying to tell people about since the spring of 2001 on slashdot.
a controversial dead older link was at http://www.sokymat.com/sp/applications/tireid.html
(slashdot ruins links, so you will have to remove the ASCII space it insertes usually into any of my urls to get to the shocking info and photos on the enbedded LOGI 160 chips that the us gov scans when you cross mexican and canadian borders.)
You never heard of it either because nobody moderates on slashdot anymore and this is probably +0 still. It has also never appeared in print before and is very secret.
Californias Fastpass is being upgraded to scan ALL responding car tires in future years upcoming. I-75 may get them next in rural funnel points in Ohio.
The photo of the secret high speed overpass prototype WAS at
http://www.tadiran-telematics.com/products6.html
http://www.telematics-wireless.com/site/index1.php
Unfortunately a lot of the abusive tactics of the DMV are created by ordinary bureaucrats not by legislators. At least the legislator traditionally has to worry about public anger. Remember when you could go to the DMV without an appointment? They actually had to attend to you? How about when you could explain that your vehicle was not being operated and you did not owe them any money for it. Now you have to inform them ahead of time that it is no longer in service, and you have to pay to do them this favor! Thousands of people wind up paying the DMV for *not* using their roads. And what about the price of tickets, when were those prices snuck through. Who figured out that $50 isn't enough deterrent for speeding or not wearing your seat belt? Why the fuck is not wearing your seat belt an offence at all!
;-)
They'll charge you whatever they want, they'll penalize you whetever they want if you're late, and in my state they can just go in without prior notice and take it out of your bank account. I think those DMV people must assume that the unwashed hordes that they see their building every day is representative of the public at large (it's frightening to visit that place isn't it?), or maybe they just see us as one big bank account that can always be tapped for a little more.
I don't take this proposal too seriously, because I don't think people will stand for it, but I'm sad for the lost millions that I will later being paying back to the government. If it ever does go public, expect mass civil disobediance. And with a car-mounted GPS jammer, I will enlist more people to my cause
Happy driving. It's a priviledge, not a right, you know. Don't get too uppity about it.
Those are my principles. If you don't like them I have others. -Groucho Marx
Has no one read TFA? The idea is not simply mileage, you can achieve that just with taxing gasoline, and encourage fuel efficiency at the same time; but to charge different rates depending on congestion; e.g. if you go into othe city in rush hour, you pay more than if you go in at 3 am, or if you go on a trip on a rural backroad. At least then those who can reschedule their trips have an incentive to do so.
This all changed just after the Civil War, where the jury system fell flat on its face due to widespread racism, mostly in the south. How would a black fella get a fair trial in a matter involving a dispute with a white folk? Either 1) Jurors are white, in which case he'd hang for blowing snot on the boss' hankie, or 2) Jurors are black, so he gets off scott-free.
So, offenses and penalties were codified, and state constitutions all over the place were altered, introducing this new "Penal Code" that everybody was suppposed ta follow.
What the hell?! What are you talking about? You do realise countries have had Legal Codes for far, far longer than the United States even existed. Even before the civil war, the US and many other legal systems were already a quagmire of often contridictory laws beset with loopholes.
I don't know where you're getting these ideas from. Especially given that rasicim in juries is still a problem even today. The current US legal system has less to do with the civil war than it has to do with simple human nature and society. See legal and socal history, economics, and most of the rest of the Guide.
May the Maths Be with you!
I value my privacy. Not because I break the law and not because I don't think some supreme body should not be watching me but because a Government that is made up of regular people just like you and I shouldn't have that kind of over reaching power over us. Has everyone forgotten this???? I read the posts here and am scared for the first time about the views of many Slashdotters. Never thought I'd see the day.
A government is for the people by the people. Do you remember the intrusiveness of the Nazi regime and the USSR??? This is part of what we detest when looking back at these societies. Sloly but surely even the Land of the free is coming around.... Give the people the illusion of choice and they will follow like sheep I guess
To address the other issue raised here there are legitimate concerns about highway taxes but there acceptable solutions outlined in other posts that don't involve tracking every citizen that drives a car.
Give them the illusion of choice and they will blindly follow for they choose not to make one.
As long as anyone who doesn't have insurance or money to pay for the hospital is left to die when they don't wear a seat belt, I'll agree to not requiring them to wear one.
Oh, and if you don't have enough insurance or money to cover all medical bills, you're thrown out the second your cash runs out.
I don't think tickets are the best way to handle that, but they're better than nothing and I don't know what a better idea would be.
No matter how much you respect the police now, if you can't guarantee that they will still be worthy of that respect after the next generation of recruits (or the one after that, etc) is in the system, then giving them powers that are difficult to remove is not a good idea.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
It would be easier to understand your position if current American police policy wasn't to use speeding tickets, under the guise of safety, as a revenue generator.
The records created by this system could be leaked and used to character assasinate. Good men/women who might run for office or take positions of influence will instead shy away from civic duty. We'll be left with even more leaders who have no shame of their past indiscretions, or those who were able to hide in their parent's bubble of privelage for the past 40 years. We'll have www.TheSmokingGun.com x1,000. Even if records are "secure" we know that they eventually get out. Just the fear of a past indiscretion coming to light, will be enough to disuade.
Imagine: "Contential Carriage Records leaked to TheSmotkingGun reveal that Thomas Jefferson, former secretary of state and Democratic-Republican Party candidate for President of the United States took a trip to Richmond, VA last year. CCR also shows that a Jefferson slave, Sally, also took a weekend trip to Richmond, VA at that time. Hospital records reveal Sally delivered a child aproximately nine-months later. We're working to get survillance tapes from the hotel! Check back in five minutes!"
I keep hearing that it isn't time to shoot the bastards.. yet. When is it time? Soon no real resistance will be possible as you and your fellows are under surveillance 24/7 and everything you do and say is monitored. You think you have nothing to hide? How about from Pat Robertson and the religious right? How about from the war on some drugs? How about those who are too interested in telling you what you can read or view or who you can have sex with and in what manner? How about from the thought police comming soon? How about from those who want to limit what you can do even on your own computer and over the net to what locks you in to their meager offerings and makes you there cash cow in perpetuity? Such means increase the power of those who would more fully control you. As long as those in power are no fully committed to freedom and have their own agendas we are not safe when applications like this literally come down the pike.
RAISE HELL about this folks! Do it while some of our public "servants" will still deign to listen. All too soon they won't have to.
Why should I care if they know what I buy or where I drive?
What happens if the tracking shows that you were near a terrorist bombing... and the tracking also shows you were at the garden centre buying fertiliser. Maybe you weren't guilty, but with enough tracking there may well be plenty of "evidence" that makes you look guilty. And since the law enforcement authorities seem to be able to get away with *anything* at the mention of the "T" word you could well find yourself banged up in jail even though there's no solid evidence against you.
This is my problem with national databases - given enough data, innocent parties can look guilty. I.e. contrary to popular belief, DNA and fingerprints are *not* necessarilly unique - looking at the fingerprints of a small number of people who are already suspected of a crime is one thing, but given a database of *everyone's* finger prints I worry that innocent people will be dragged through the courts (and possibly convicted) purely because the database showed a match.
http://blog.nexusuk.org
To those who would support such a travisty I can only remind them of the words of one of our founding fathers.
"Those who would give up essential liberty, to purchase
a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-- Benjamin Franklin
Seat belt laws actually keep the driver behind the wheel, rather than thrown out of one's seat or hard to one side. Often in an accident a driver can prevent an accident from becoming even worse by steering, braking, etc. after the initial contact. Consider seat belt laws to be like laws requiring you to maintain your brakes, brake lights, etc. It's for the safety of other drivers, not you.
Ooh, a sarcasm detector. Oh, that's a real useful invention.
The Luddites were ahead of their time.
I'm gonna love seeing my insurance rates go down when they see that my car spends 99.99% of its time sitting in my garage. Now, all I need to do is rig up an AC adapter to power that new GPS chip I yanked from the car and the savings will start rolling in!
This thread sees a surprising number of people supporting this idea using the “if you’ve got nothing to hide, why should you worry?” fallacy. There have been weak arguments on both sides, but I would like to nail this one shut by reminding everyone that tracking citizens is distinctly unconstitutional. Maybe some of you have read the following provision in United States law.
(Emphasis mine.) Sure, I know this is a little quaint, but hear me out. This law, known as the First Amendment, among other things, protects the right (note it does not grant a right—rights cannot be granted, only protected) of citizens to associate freely and anonymously. The reason it protects this right is so members of the population can either meet up for Thursday night poker, or overthrow the government. Shock and dismay I’m sure, but that is why we have it (and the Second Amendment). Oppressive governments, as a first order of business in controlling a population, restrict the ability of people to assemble. The First Amendment restricts our government’s ability to do that. Of course, it applies directly to protecting to a much simpler, less severe act of “petition the government for a redress of grievances”. Tracking people with GPS everywhere they go will have a chilling effect on the desire to exercise this right, regardless of the intent. Like everything else, people can gather to do something positive or commit a crime. Take guns for example. Not intrinsically bad, but used both for sharp-shooting sports and killing innocent people. Should they be taken away? Absolutely not and the same applies with our freedom to go wherever we choose without being monitored. It is astonishing to me that we live in an age where people are willing to allow the government to track and monitor their every move. These people should be utterly ashamed of themselves because this a freedom that has been won by great sacrifice and is one of the founding principles of the United States. Too bad we really don’t teach this material in schools anymore.
Join Tor today!
One.. I already have this..
I'm an amateur radio operator and I have a GPS and packet transmitter in my car. If you pull up my website (not the one linked above) you can see where my car is currently, how fast I'm going, and where I've been in the last 7 days!.... oooooooooooooooo
Now.. this is a little different... and a few things come to mind... am I going to have to take my car to some place to have this installed? What happens if it breaks? Do I have to spend my time getting it fixed? How do I know if it broke?
From the article:
Some GPS trackers constantly communicate their location back to the state DMV, while others record the location information for later retrieval. (In the Oregon pilot project, it's beamed out wirelessly when the driver pulls into a gas station.)
On the Oregon one... why can't I just fill up my jug of gas, while the car is parked in a parking spot and then transfer it over to the car, thereby avoiding the uplink. If it's constant communication seems like a low level RF signal by the car could block it out.
Since I have not read the article, I will spout my opinion as fact, and leave the rest to the jury :-)
I have nearly 10 years of relatively high mileage driving under my belt with a very clean driving record. Its not spotless which is my point. I feel there should be some credit or recognition for distance I have driven, and not just the number of years I have been driving. The person who rarely gets behind the wheel is more of a danger then one who has a lot of current experience.
The problem is there is no way to report the number of miles / kilometers I have driven in the past year. While I hate the idea of being spied upon, maybe this will lead to some form of usage based experience credits vs just time based.
I'm in my right mind and I have the answer to everything!
Luckily for you, Volvos are legendary in their longevity
I wonder though, if there's a simple list out there of all automobiles with a "black box" - I can't find an organized, easy to read list on Google yet, but here's a list of all the supported car models carrying Vehtronics boxes (and the box locations)... and the OEM database for On Board Diagnostics (looks to be very complete). Oh, and some info on pre-1995 models.
Post back if you come across a better listing !
Thanks.
"Whoever would overthrow the liberty of a nation must begin by subduing the freeness of speech."--Benjamin Franklin
e.g. if you go into othe city in rush hour, you pay more than if you go in at 3 am, or if you go on a trip on a rural backroad.
Geez, talk about adding insult to injury. Not only do you have to put up with getting stuck in traffic, but you have to pay more for the pleasure of it?
This is way too over-the-top for me to believe this guy is anything other than a troll, read the end: "
4 out of 5 times this post was rapidly modded to -1 by fbi shills angry at the epson ink info and tire info and explosives taggant info and only one time did it survive the FBI negative modding Slashdot accounts and remain at +2 by the next day. If you like to read RFID facts like this that I BROKE FIRST IN SPRING OF 2001 here on Slashdot, then keep this vital post from getting modded to -1 by idiots that cannot follow links or perform searches for themselves."
Come on, FBI shills? I can't believe this got moderated up, this is bad even by Slashdot's standards. You should be ashamed!
In case you actually bother to look up anything he mentioneds, like the TREAD Act, you'll note there is no conspiracy. The TREAD act is about Tire Safety and Accountability for defective/bad tires, it has nothing to do with tracking or RFID.
You're assuming that they won't apply the same technology to bikes and charge you, too! Granted, probably a lesser fee but why would we think they'll exempt bikes?
Anyway, I oppose this across the board. The privacy concerns are obvious. But fee-based infrastructure is a really bad idea. National infrastructure is one of the few things that I agree the government should be involved in because it benefits all of us.
If they eventually go fee-based then I assume they'll cut the federal budget by whatever it is they currently spend on the transporation department, at least the hundreds of billions they regularly spend on highways? I'm definitely not going to put up with being double-dinged for this stuff.
http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/nhtsa/Cfc_title49/publ414 .106.pdf
Go ahead and search it. It requires better labelling, but no RFID chips. There doesn't even seem to be anything in there to even let you identify a particular tire, just perhaps model and manufacture date or something.
Conspiracy theorists (and trolls) never check their sources too carefully, it just dampenens the ranting.
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
There is no constitutional right to travel
WTF are you smoking?
Amendment IX
The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.
Amendment X
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.
Go re-read your constitution, and the federalist papers. The constitution does not grant rights, rights are inherent. They only listed a few important ones within the constitution, but because these are natural rights you have them and a host of others even if they are not listed in the constitution....
Even if you ignore the ninth and tenth amendments, what about the first?
E.G. "the right of the people peaceably to assemble"? obviously we the people cannot assemble without traveling to said assembly. So yeah, I'd say that alone says we DO have the right of travel.
As for the right to track you,
Amendment IV
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
This is to my mind clearly a case of unreasonable search and seizure. The right of the people to be secure in their persons surely means secure from tracking my whereabouts.
People like you scare me. It is a sad testament to what america and its educational system have become.
Service guarantees Citizenship! Questions Guarantee GITMO.... Amerika Uber Alles!
Simply not following the law is not sufficient. Jaywalk in front of a traffic officer; bring a bag of pot to the police station. Civil Disobedience is not about sneaking around, trying to get away with an infraction of law. Civil Disobedience is about commiting the infraction in full view of society and then, within the context of the criminal justice system, showing how unjust either the law or the punishment is and persuading society to change the law. You must be willing to stand against dogs and firehoses. You must be willing to risk life, limb, and liberty. You must be eloquent and respectful - otherwise you're just a juvenile deliquent running across the street, screwing up traffic, in order to score some 3rd rate ditch weed.
There is no reset button in life; however, there are bonus levels.
Fuel taxes are almost perfect as road user fees. Larger, heavier vehicles tear up the roads more, and also happen to use more fuel. If pollution is considered, the model holds up there well too.
High fuel taxes encourage people to use less fuel, and to buy more fuel efficient vehicles -- perhaps from other than (SUV heavy) US carmakers. But if road use were taxed by mileage, fuel use would be less affected, as would vehicle choice WRT fuel efficiency. SUV makers and oil companies would benefit. So they love this. And yes, it's partly their lobbyists and think tanks who are behind it.
Also, who do you think would be making the GPS units? Delco, perhaps? Hey, if you can't compete for consumer business effectively, go for the gov't contracts...